Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[AyChihuahua]

And Sara was in the mood to kick ass bc Sin had been shot.  Just an overall great episode (although I didn't love the villain, but he was kind of irrelevant).

[kismet]

It is a little bittering when they squander chemistry for plot or predestined arcs. I always saw more a friendship chemistry between SA/CL, but they did have chemistry. I could believe them as former lovers and current crime fighting partners.

 

The stunts did seem less exciting this year. I felt that there were a lot of standoffs with posturing but not as much hands on fighting.

[tv echo]

I think the EPs saw no difference between a sister taking over for a sister (Laurel for Sara) and a daughter taking over for a mother (comics BC).  But there is a difference, and I'm not sure how to articulate that difference, but here goes...

 

• Children often take over an inheritance or legacy from parents (family business, profession, etc.).  So there's something natural about a parent retiring or dying, and then the child wanting to carry on that family business or legacy.  Siblings, however, often go in different directions when it comes to careers, and it's not as usual for one sibling to take over another sibling's calling.

 

• Since siblings are around the same generation, it's also not usual for one sibling to take over another sibling's calling because that other sibling died.  Even if that sibling died from disease or murder, a sibling wouldn't necessarily then assume the deceased sibling's job because they would already be immersed in their own career.

 

• With the parent-to-child passing of the torch, it's highly unlikely that both parent and child will have had sex with the same partner - so no 'ickiness' factor, like there is with the sister-swapping.  And when two sisters are around the same age, there's too much of a SWF vibe to it.

 

• The parent-to-child passing of the torch is a way of human immortality -- where the legacy, line or business extends into the future, past one generation's natural life.  A sibling-to-sibling passing of the torch might work if done right, with one sibling asking and the other sibling accepting.  But one sibling grabbing the torch from the dead sibling without the latter's knowledge or permission also has a SWF vibe to it.

 

That is why it would've worked better if (as others have said) Sara had still been alive to see, train and bless Laurel's transformation into the BC.  (Although we might very well see the resurrected Sara blessing Laurel, as well as a weapons-swapping scene between Oliver and Laurel, next season.)  It also would've worked better if the transformation was more believable - where Laurel either (1) quit her job as an ADA to train intensely on a full-time basis for several months, before she went out as a fledgling BC, or (2) continued to work as an ADA but squeezed in training in her free time, in which case she wouldn't become the BC for a few years.

Edited May 22, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

With the parent-to-child passing of the torch, it's highly unlikely that both parent and child will have had sex with the same partner

 

Oliver and his father both slept with Isabel. The Arrow writers really need to get over their family partner swapping fetish.

 

I haven't watched Arrow but I heard they were sort of teasing a Laurel and Nyssa hook up. To which I say HELL NO! Laurel doesn't need to become Sara to be Black Canary. That's the main reason the sister to sister passing doesn't work for me. Laurel is not her own person, she didn't choose her own name (adding "Black" to the name does not make it different). She took her sister's title that was earned through blood, sweat and tears, by just putting it on and now apparently her girlfriend/trainer as well. Someone on another board said Laurel's Cosplaying while everyone else are heroes. That's exactly how I see it. 

 

I guess my only sanctification with this SWF storyline is I've seen some Laurel fans that aren't happy about it either. To them killing Sara the way they did forever tarnishes Laurel taking the name. They know that most of us can only think that Sara died for that happen. They accept and are happy Laurel's BC but I think they agree that the writers royally screwed up on that storyline. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by Sakura12

[tv echo]

I guess my only sanctification with this SWF storyline is I've seen some Laurel fans that aren't happy about it either. To them killing Sara the way they did forever tarnishes Laurel taking the name. They know that most of us can only think that Sara died for that happen. They accept and are happy Laurel's BC but I think they agree that the writers royally screwed up on that storyline. 

I'm curious - do you think that resurrecting Sara will remove that tarnish?

 

You're right about Isabel - I forgot about her.

[Sakura12]

Not for me, but I hated Laurel long before she put on Sara's outfit and stole her name. Maybe for some it will since we'll most likely have Sara give Laurel her blessing to be Black Canary and tell her how proud she is of her. (:eyeroll:)

 

Which IMO should've been Sara in the first place. With Sara being resurrected they could've waited and had Sara give Laurel the title and not have her father call her that as an insult, that also tarnished Laurel going by that name. It wasn't given to a hero, it was given by an angry father that had been lied to for months by her over his younger daughter's death. 

 

Laurel could've been training this year, she didn't do any fighting for 2 years prior what's one more year for her to actually be ready to take the hero name? 

 

ETA: Oliver's not Green Arrow yet, what was with the rush to make untrained Laurel Black Canary? Was that written in KC's contract that by year 3 she'd be playing BC?

Edited May 22, 2015 by Sakura12

[catahoulamama]

Not for me, but I hated Laurel long before she put on Sara's outfit and stole her name. Maybe for some it will since we'll most likely have Sara give Laurel her blessing to be Black Canary and tell her how proud she is of her. (:eyeroll:)

 

Which IMO should've been Sara in the first place. With Sara being resurrected they could've waited and had Sara give Laurel the title and not have her father call her that as an insult, that also tarnished Laurel going by that name. It wasn't given to a hero, it was given by an angry father that had been lied to for months by her over his younger daughter's death. 

 

Laurel could've been training this year, she didn't do any fighting for 2 years prior what's one more year for her to actually be ready to take the hero name? 

 

This. All of it.

 

I don't think Sara's return, or her even giving Laurel her "blessing" or whatever will make it work any better. IMO, Laurel's always going to be role playing as Sara's Canary.  It will never feel legit to me and I think that's due to a myriad of factors we've hashed over a number of times here : skill level of the actresses, the mistake of the EP's putting Sara up as the defacto BC first, having her gain popularity, then killing her off to hand it all to Laurel.  It's been doomed to fail from the start and it's not like they didn't know from day one that Laurel would become BC.  Poor choices all around. It'll be interesting to see how Sara's return will color perceptions. Likely it will just fuel more of the existing criticism of the Laurel/BC inception because inevitable comparisons have already been made. When ongoing comparisons can continually be made because both will be airing with their own version (albeit on different shows and different color suits :eyeroll:), that won't bode well for acceptance of Laurel's BC.

[nksarmi]

I don't know - I think the writers screwed the pooch on the Laurel/BC story and we just all have to accept it.  I kind of feel sorry for KC at times - she was hired as the LI and future BC but the writers wrote the love story so badly, lack of chemistry between the leads just doesn't matter.  They might have had one teeny, tiny chance to put them on a path where they could someday reunite, but then they killed Tommy and had Oliver sleep with Sara in the present. 

 

So by the end of season one/mid-way through season two, there was no way she would ever be the LI.  But then holy crap, they also took BC away from her when the brought Sara back and made her as awesome as they did.  Hell, at one point, they went so far as to retcon Laurel into a boyfriend stealing bitch of a sister.  It would have been kinder just to fire KC at that point.

 

In season one, they told us Laurel had self-defense training.  In season two, they showed us she could shot to kill if she felt her life was in danger.  While we have discussed ad naseum that they could have written her as someone who took martial arts lessons at some point in her past, they passed on that.  But what's worse is that they also passed on trying to retcon Laurel as a former gymnast or anything that would give her some minor skills in the field.  Heck, they went through the trouble of establishing that Thea had great aim well before she picked up a bow.  Why not do something for Laurel if you knew you were always going to make her BC?

 

It seems clear to me that the handling of Laurel from day one is the worst thing this show has ever done.  If they feel like they need to apologize to KC now and give her some BC story - well I guess I understand.  I just hope they stop messing things up with her - don't have her lie to her dad again..... let her be excited when she learns Sara is still alive...... let her be a real friend to Diggle....... and for the love of all things good and holy, don't have her hook up with Nyssa.  Also, it might do wonders to have her tell Oliver how good he is with Felicity and that she now understands that he and she were never the real deal.

 

And I think the family swapping thing on this show got really, really gross period.  I hope they have learned their lesson.  Between Oliver swapping Laurel and Sara, Diggle dating his brother's widow, Oliver sleeping with his dad's ex-lover, and then having Thea unknowingly crush on her half-brother Tommy - somebody needed to remind the writers that even though the actors aren't related - the characters are!  I'm glad that as of right now Felicity is an only child - hopefully she stays that way.

Edited May 22, 2015 by nksarmi

[NumberCruncher]

From the News & Media thread:

Great analysis by JustAboutWrite about Ray Palmer in season 3 of Arrow...

 

Problematic Palmer: What Went Wrong with this 'Arrow' Character

5:51 PM

http://www.itsjustaboutwrite.com/2015/05/problematic-palmer-what-went-wrong-with.html?m=1

This analysis perfectly sums up everything I dislike about how they handled Ray Palmer much better than anything I could have written. I'll never forgive the showrunners for introducing him at such great expense of Felicity's characterization and disrupting the overall flow of the show. I cringed so much when MG mentioned that we'll be getting more ATOM origin story in S4 leading up to the LoA premiere because while I have no doubt that Brandon Routh is a nice person, I loathe his character and what he did to Arrow. Forever bitter about that.

[AyChihuahua]

They could have avoided a ton of problems with Laurel becoming BC if they had had her be a serious martial artist or gymnast or something, for years.  A few self-defense lessons is just not enough and in fact sounds totally absurd.

[nksarmi]

I think Ray was such a minor problem with this season of Arrow.  To me, blaming the problem on him is like blaming the problem on olicity.  Both had issues, but I could have forgiven those things if they hadn't had one general underlying principle at play this season - "we can get a lot of millage out of Oliver being a dumb ass" - or however MG phrased it.

 

I do NOT like a stupid hero.  I'm sorry - I don't. 

 

I happen to also not like stupid villains so between Oliver being a dumb ass and Ra's making zero sense - I was kind of screwed this season.  But I have hope that with Oliver and Felicity together in season four, that she has enough brains for both of them.

 

And back to Ray - whatever they got wrong early on, they got enough right by the end that I am actually looking forward to seeing him in early season four to setup LoT, but I'm also looking forward to that show more than I am to Arrow so maybe I'm not the right audience at this point. /shrug

They could have avoided a ton of problems with Laurel becoming BC if they had had her be a serious martial artist or gymnast or something, for years.  A few self-defense lessons is just not enough and in fact sounds totally absurd.

I really think gymnast would have been the way to go.  I really don't know why they didn't at least retcon it in.  They made Sara the fighter, but they could have at least given the stunt coordinator something to work with by claiming that Laurel has a natural ability to do back flips and was a champ on the balance beam and stuff like that. 

 

Frankly, I might be forgiving enough if they tried to work it in now lol.  It would be kind of horrible, but I still think I could stomach a scene with her and Daddy Lance in the old family home admiring all of Sara's track and field trophies or something and then having them pan over to Laurel's ballet slippers and gymnastic awards. 

[AyChihuahua]

Ballerina is a great idea.  She'd have tons of coordination, body control, muscle mass, etc., but not so small and compact as gymnasts.  She also just kind of seems like a ballet kind of girl, so it'd fit.  That is a really great idea.  Retcon away, writers!

[nksarmi]

Ballerina is a great idea.  She'd have tons of coordination, body control, muscle mass, etc., but not so small and compact as gymnasts.  She also just kind of seems like a ballet kind of girl, so it'd fit.  That is a really great idea.  Retcon away, writers!

I know right!  I could 100% buy a scene with KC/Laurel stretching out with a dance bar.  I honestly don't think I care that they haven't mentioned it for three years - I'd love to see someone walk in on her stretching out and her say that Nyssa told her that if she practiced her old ballet routines it would up her agility and flexibility in the field.

[DrSpaceman10]

I don't think Arrow needs to have a full-time Canary (Black or otherwise). It's true that BC was supposed to be the female lead, but that role is Felicity's now (in terms of screen time, crossovers, popularity, love interest of the lead). And Arrow already has women who physically kick ass with Thea, Lyla, Nyssa and Tatsu. If they still wanted to honor comic canon by having a (Black) Canary on a show about (Green) Arrow, I think it should be a character that only pops in for a few episodes a season. 

[nksarmi]

First, while I love them all - Lyla, Nyssa, and Tatsu are not regulars. 

 

Laurel, Felicity, and Thea are the regulars and there is a good chance that KC is still the lead actress in terms of contracts.

 

Since they seem unwilling to fire KC or move her onto another show - I personally want to see them integrate her well into the show and have her positively interact with all of the characters.  We can say we don't need Laurel as BC, but since we are going to get her - I want her done well.

[NumberCruncher]

I think Ray was such a minor problem with this season of Arrow.  To me, blaming the problem on him is like blaming the problem on olicity.  Both had issues, but I could have forgiven those things if they hadn't had one general underlying principle at play this season - "we can get a lot of millage out of Oliver being a dumb ass" - or however MG phrased it.

I do NOT like a stupid hero.  I'm sorry - I don't. 

Point taken, but my post wasn't meant to imply that he gets the entire blame for the crappiness of S3. I was merely commenting on him in direct response to the article that was posted in the other thread. I've made no secret that there were a lot of things that went wrong on the show this year, but the RP/Atom arc is definitely one of them which was the point of my post.

And I certainly agree with you that MG's love of making his titular hero a total dumbass certainly didn't help matters.

Edited May 22, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[WaitandHope]

My biggest bitterness over last season, is that I still don't know WHY Merlyn had Thea kill Sara.  Honestly, I really liked the finale, but I still don't know the answer to the biggest plot-driver of the season, and it frustrates me to no end.   

 

I was watching "The Magician"  last night and raged all over again.  Every f*#&ing thing Oliver does in that episode is totally and completely wrong and stupid.  Malcolm did kill Sara, Dumbass!  Quit protecting him.  This is the 50th episode and a milestone of sorts, and I cannot believe that it's an episode where the hero is a total imbecile for all 42 minutes. 

 

Was it all some bizarre, twisty Merlyn plan to end up as Ra's?  If so, this needed to be spelled out a little more in the story because I don't feel that it was.   How is this not resolved?  I DON'T GET IT!   They have to be circling back to this, right?  Especially with the set up for LOT? 

 

I know Oliver said he would never forgive him at the end, but seriously, he literally gave him everything he wanted.   Malcolm is a worse person than Ra's!  Much, much worse.  He was not redeemed.   He was literally rewarded for killing Sara - and that appears to have been his plan all along.  (maybe - I literally have no idea if it was or wasn't!?!)  Why is this not a problem for anyone in the narrative of the show - except Nyssa?

 

PS - I should clarify, I watched The Climb, and I know the stated reason, but that never really made any sense to me.  But maybe I just need to accept that as "The Reason" and live with it.  I still don't get it though.  Did he think Oliver would win or lose?  If he stupidly thought he would win, I guess that was a win for Merlyn because it got Ra's off his back? But why did he have to have Thea kill Sara to accomplish this?  And if it made Oliver RAG then that seems bad for Merlyn.  And did Merlyn foresee he would lose and nearly die, then be brought back to health, then submit to Ra's after Thea was resurrected, then become the heir, then kill Ra's, then become Ra's, who would then turn over Ra's to him?  So I watched the show - just still confused.

Edited May 22, 2015 by WaitandHope

[catahoulamama]

First, while I love them all - Lyla, Nyssa, and Tatsu are not regulars. 

 

Laurel, Felicity, and Thea are the regulars and there is a good chance that KC is still the lead actress in terms of contracts.

 

Since they seem unwilling to fire KC or move her onto another show - I personally want to see them integrate her well into the show and have her positively interact with all of the characters.  We can say we don't need Laurel as BC, but since we are going to get her - I want her done well.

They really could have avoided much of this dilemma if they'd paid a bit more attention to the chemistry (or lack of it) between the "canon" leads and love interests when casting, but somehow that apparently never came into play.  Nothing to do about it now, so I think it would serve KC and the character well if they let her be a "hero" via the legal system and/or helping TA dodge the legal implications of what they do when they get in a pinch. The whole, "You catch 'em, I cook 'em" dynamic with Oliver at the beginning of this season really worked.  I'd be perfectly cool with them letting the whole BC thing sort of fall away (especially now since Thea's in a mask, too) for Laurel.  Since they're resurrecting Sara, it would be the perfect time for Laurel to hang up her sister's outfit and go back to being a legal warrior instead.  They're bound to do crossovers with LoT, so if they need a Canary-like character and Sara's resurrected, let her do it now and then. They don't really *need* BC full time anymore with Arrow, Speedy, Diggle, and the Atom all in the same city.  At some point, it gets hard to sell that SC's crime is so bad, it takes the SCPD and a literal busload of masked vigilantes to keep things under control.

[Sakura12]

Maybe they will reveal next season that Oliver's knew that Sara was resurrected shortly after her death, that's why he was all about working with Malcolm. Sara was probably crazypants which is why he wasn't telling anyone about it. 

 

I don't see how these crossovers are going to work with two Canaries. Say something is going down, they all suit up. 

 

Oliver: "Well, Sara's here. You can sit this one out, Laurel"

Laurel: "But I trained for 3 whole months, I'm awesome now!"

Oliver: "Sara trained for 8 YEARS and doesn't quit, even after she died. She wins!"

Edited May 22, 2015 by Sakura12

[Chaser]

Maybe they will reveal next season that Oliver's knew that Sara was resurrected shortly after her death, that's why he was all about working with Malcolm. Sara was probably crazypants which is why he wasn't telling anyone about it. 

 

I don't see how these crossovers are going to work with two Canaries. Say something is going down, they all suit up. 

 

Oliver: "Well, Sara's here. You can sit this one out, Laurel"

Laurel: "But I trained for 3 whole months, I'm awesome now!"

Oliver: "Sara trained for 8 YEARS and doesn't quit, even after she died. She wins!"

"She's died twice and she's still fighting." Sara's Buffy.

[Sakura12]

Sara's got Buffy beat, she's died three times (four if you count the snake venom thing as a death). At least for Oliver, poor guy. I cant imagine watching the same person die that many times. 

 

We better get Oliver's reaction to Sara being alive, again. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by Sakura12

[DrSpaceman10]

Maybe they will reveal next season that Oliver's knew that Sara was resurrected shortly after her death, that's why he was all about working with Malcolm. Sara was probably crazypants which is why he wasn't telling anyone about it. 

 

I really wouldn't like this, for Oliver to have known that she was alive and not have told anybody (not Thea, Felicity, Diggle, or even Laurel). It would be total character regression for me. When Sara comes back, I want everyone to know and for it not to be a secret. 

[HighHopes]

Really one of my biggest issues with the finale was how Oliver left Thea ‘alone’ in Starling City.

 

The entire season was about Oliver saving Thea and doing everything he can to protect her and make sure she is safe. There was an entire episode about how Oliver and Thea only had each other for family now and that what was the point of living if they weren’t together since their parents sacrificed their lives so they could live.

 

And so the season ends with Oliver leaving town and leaving Thea behind? That’s how they wrap up that storyline? Really?

 

Also Sara is alive, so the main storyline of season three was pointless, and Malcolm got exactly what he wanted out of killing Sara (which he got literally handed to him), and Oliver didn't deal with being both Oliver Queen and The Arrow and dating Felicity since the season ended with him being neither Oliver Queen nor The Arrow. 

 

Really the only thing that happened this season was Laurel and Thea becoming masked heroes. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by HighHopes

[kismet]

And I think the family swapping thing on this show got really, really gross period.  I hope they have learned their lesson.  Between Oliver swapping Laurel and Sara, Diggle dating his brother's widow, Oliver sleeping with his dad's ex-lover, and then having Thea unknowingly crush on her half-brother Tommy - somebody needed to remind the writers that even though the actors aren't related - the characters are!  I'm glad that as of right now Felicity is an only child - hopefully she stays that way.

But then again, they put in that Oliver line in 319 about are you sure you & Palmer aren't related? I believe I posted some of my thoughts in the episode or relationship threads. But the gist of it was in my head, the first thing I thought was that is so accurate - perhaps that is why I never believed their romantic chemistry. To oh my goodness, the show could really go there because there is precedence (which is just ugh, ew - PLEASE NO). To then mentally begging that whoever in the writers room loves their soapy incestual family swapping got enough of their fix with OQ's line. Because lets be honest I would not be surprised if RP & FS were blood related, you know for plots & twists.

[wonderwall]

Really one of my biggest issues with the finale was how Oliver left Thea ‘alone’ in Starling City.

 

I didn't have an issue with Oliver leaving Thea 'alone' in Starling. I never got the sense that Thea ever really needed Oliver to be there for her all the time. What I like about Thea is that she's a capable woman, she makes her own decisions, she forges her own path. I think Oliver knows that? And it's not like Thea is alone in Starling. She also has Laurel and Diggle and I think Oliver knows that. 

 

I think if Oliver had a sense that Thea needed him he would've stayed, but she didn't. 

 

But I agree with the rest of your post! :)

[HighHopes]

I didn't have an issue with Oliver leaving Thea 'alone' in Starling. I never got the sense that Thea ever really needed Oliver to be there for her all the time. What I like about Thea is that she's a capable woman, she makes her own decisions, she forges her own path. I think Oliver knows that? And it's not like Thea is alone in Starling. She also has Laurel and Diggle and I think Oliver knows that. 

 

I think if Oliver had a sense that Thea needed him he would've stayed, but she didn't. 

 

But I agree with the rest of your post! :)

 

Oh I agree that Thea didn't/doesn't need only Oliver and that she wasn't truly alone, but in 3x04 they told us that Oliver needed Thea and that he wanted them to be a family and together because their parents sacrificed their lives to they could live. But then 18 episodes later he's leaving town and they aren't together or a family. So what was the point in him telling Thea they needed to be together if he doesn't follow through with it? 

[NumberCruncher]

@kismet, I was side-eyeing the writers so hard when I heard the Ray/Felicity "being related" jab for exactly the reason being discussed here. It would have been funny on a show with no incestuous undertones, but here? Blech. The whole Ray/Felicity pairing was already creepy to me because it ultimately boiled down to her falling for a man who was constantly pinging her phone, showing up at her apartment uninvited, pressuring her into employment under him, buying her expensive gifts to bribe her into dinner, etc., but that just added a whole new layer to the ick factor, LOL.

[Starfish35]

Oliver is a terrible brother. I'm sorry but he is. At the end of season one, the Undertaking happened and Moira goes to prison, and Oliver runs off to his island leaving Thea all alone. After Moira is killed, Oliver goes and hides out in his secondary lair, and leaves Thea to go through the funeral and the wake all by herself. When she takes some action for herself after finding out what Malcolm's done to her, she arranges to have him turned over to Ra's - something Oliver should have done months earlier - and Oliver overrides her decision by stupidly risking his own life to get Malcolm back.

I mean, I love them together, but Oliver has made a lot of horrible decisions where Thea is concerned.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

I don't think I want Oliver to be responsible for resurrecting Sara from the LP, unless of course he's discussed it with TA & LL. I just don't want him having previous knowledge of her being alive & still pursuing the plots of s3. It just would feel too much like a character regression & the lies would just be too much to swallow.

 

I honestly want Sara to have been resurrected by MM or maybe Nyssa soon after she died and then they proceeded to keep it from TA, because I feel it would be well within their characters to do such a thing. MM because he is evil & manipulative, so he would want to keep her resurrection as a trump or bargaining chip. Whereas, Nyssa would probably have kept it secret as a means to keep her safe from her father & LoA.

 

Lastly, I want her to have been resurrected closer to her death, because personally I just don't want the LPs to be able to raise people from the dead. The almost dead or the nearly dead I can tolerate because comics, mysticism & magic. Heck even in modern medicine there are many times when we bring people back from the nearly dead. But to have the ability to bring back people who are dead dead dead, as they so lovingly reminded us would just be too much leeway for the show to use death as more of a plot device. People dying should mean something and I would hate to have that all be marginalized because we have this really cool hot tub that resurrects the dead. Just be careful to read the fine print because it only works in certain conditions and the rules can totally change at anytime we want because of plot or contractual needs.

[wonderwall]

Oh I agree that Thea didn't/doesn't need only Oliver and that she wasn't truly alone, but in 3x04 they told us that Oliver needed Thea and that he wanted them to be a family and together because their parents sacrificed their lives to they could live. But then 18 episodes later he's leaving town and they aren't together or a family. So what was the point in him telling Thea they needed to be together if he doesn't follow through with it? 

 

I completely disagree with your implied premise that Oliver needs to be physically where Thea is in order for them to be a family. He's leaving town, but that doesn't mean he's not going to be in constant communication with Thea, it doesn't mean that they won't bond through phone calls or that Oliver won't worry at night when he thinks of Thea going out into the field... I think Oliver meant that they need to be a unit, they need to support one another to be a family, not that they have to physically be there with each other.

 

I mean, I left my family to live in the UK but that doesn't mean we're less of a family. 

 

BUT I agree that Oliver hasn't been a good brother over the past few seasons. He wasn't a good brother because he kept lying to Thea. However, I firmly believe that he started changing his ways when he told Thea the truth about his identity. There are no secrets between them now. All Oliver needs to focus on is being less controlling WHICH I think he achieved wonderfully (almost too smoothly) when he accepted Thea becoming Speedy.

I mean, I love them together, but Oliver has made a lot of horrible decisions where Thea is concerned.

 

I think accepting Thea becoming Speedy and telling Thea about his identity shows that he's taking some positive steps in the right direction :) That being said, I agree that Oliver's been a terrible brother over the past 3 seasons. Hopefully we see him be better in season 4.

Edited May 22, 2015 by wonderwall

[HighHopes]

I have sisters, I know that you don't need to physically be together to be together and to be family. But that's not what Oliver said. Oliver said that they should be in the same town/be in each other's lives physically ("what is the point of living if we aren't together" which was said when he was trying to convince her to come back to Starling City and not just to continue to keep in touch with him). But then he doesn't follow through with it. And that's what I have the issue with. 

 

Maybe he changed his tune when he realized Thea can handle herself, that there's more to family than just being blood related. But that wasn't communicated on screen at all- and maybe season four will address it. 

[tarotx]

Oliver is a loner and dysfunctional. He doesn't know how to be present in relationships. It's everybody's huge issue with him...

And Thea herself ran away last season finale.

Edited May 22, 2015 by tarotx

[calliope1975]

Really one of my biggest issues with the finale was how Oliver left Thea ‘alone’ in Starling City.

 

The entire season was about Oliver saving Thea and doing everything he can to protect her and make sure she is safe. There was an entire episode about how Oliver and Thea only had each other for family now and that what was the point of living if they weren’t together since their parents sacrificed their lives so they could live.

 

And so the season ends with Oliver leaving town and leaving Thea behind? That’s how they wrap up that storyline? Really?

 

Well, to be fair, Oliver had previously left her in her murderous, psychopathic birth father's hands while he went off to die, so leaving her alone (and apparently friendly with the Diggles) to go on a vacay is an improvement in my book. 

[Starfish35]

And Thea herself ran away last season finale.

I don't much blame her for that after Oliver abandoned her after the most traumatic event of her life (and could have possibly prevented it if he had told them the truth about Slade). Now taking up with Malcolm is another issue altogether. But I don't blame Thea for leaving one little bit.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

For me, the worst thing Oliver did to Thea this season is after not telling her what a murdering psychopath her bio-dad still is and then disclosing that Malcolm had mindwiped her to kill Sara, he went to Nanda Parbat to bring Malcolm back after Thea had meted out justice in her own way, and then forced Thea to have the man who had done those things to her stay with her and have to take care of him. That would have be a trauma for Thea is nothing else was. And it was even before he had worked out the plan with Malcolm to take down Ra's, so there was nothing he really needed Malcolm for yet.

[AyChihuahua]

I mean, Oliver's a terrible, awful, no-good brother; a terrible, awful, unreliable friend; a terrible, awful, wishy-ass-washy boyfriend/kinda boyfriend; and a below-average hero.  Oh, and a complete failure as a CEO.  He was also not a good son or stepson. 

 

Wait, why do I watch this show again?

[wonderwall]

Maybe he changed his tune when he realized Thea can handle herself, that there's more to family than just being blood related. But that wasn't communicated on screen at all- and maybe season four will address it. 

 

I think he changed his way of thinking for a myriad of reasons. He knows Thea is safe, he now knows Thea can handle herself, he knows that Thea won't be around Malcolm anymore, that she has a family and someone to talk to in Diggle and Laurel.

 

IMO Oliver in episode 4 was floundering and trying to hold onto a life jacket and that jacket was his love for Thea. He needed Thea because I don't think he felt as though he had any other family, not the other way around. So Oliver went to get Thea more for himself than Thea. But then that changed when Oliver started to embrace himself more? IDK Like I said his identity issue wasn't well executed. I'm definitely not going to cling to that line he told Thea to get her back. IMO I don't mind Oliver leaving just as long as him and Thea are on good terms. I would've hated if he left if they weren't on good terms. 

 

In the end I think everyone knows Oliver needs a good vacation, and I'm glad he's getting it. It's not like he's gone forever and it's not like he's leaving the team with a big baddie looming around. Leaving Thea to her own devices IMO showed a lot more trust and closeness to his sister than clinging onto her like a life jacket and making her decisions for her. After everything Oliver tried to do for Thea (going to face Ra's in episode 9, surrendering himself to him in episode 20), there's no denying that they're family, that nothing can get in between them. That's why I'm okay with Oliver leaving regardless of what he said in episode 3. 

 

I really hate calling Oliver an "awful, no-good brother" because of the sheer amount he sacrificed for Thea. Yeah he needs to learn how to show his love in a different manner, but I still think that this is all a learning process for Oliver. The island/Hong Kong/Russia really messed Oliver up, but I did see Oliver make a few positive developments in season 3. Hopefully they keep that up in season 4. 

[NumberCruncher]

I mean, Oliver's a terrible, awful, no-good brother; a terrible, awful, unreliable friend; a terrible, awful, wishy-ass-washy boyfriend/kinda boyfriend; and a below-average hero.  Oh, and a complete failure as a CEO.  He was also not a good son or stepson. 

 

Wait, why do I watch this show again?

In the slim chance that eventually all the crapping on his character will ultimately pay off and he'll become the fine upstanding superhero we expect him to be since, after all, the show is called "Arrow"? Of course, that only works if you have a main showrunner who actually wants his hero to succeed. The jury's still out on that one. ;)

Edited May 22, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[statsgirl]

What NumberCruncher said.

 

And because Stephen Amell, drat him, pulls me in every time.

[wonderwall]

Stephen Amell perfected the puppy dog face. I feel like he can do no wrong with that face. 

 

Damn him. 

[nksarmi]

But then again, they put in that Oliver line in 319 about are you sure you & Palmer aren't related? I believe I posted some of my thoughts in the episode or relationship threads. But the gist of it was in my head, the first thing I thought was that is so accurate - perhaps that is why I never believed their romantic chemistry. To oh my goodness, the show could really go there because there is precedence (which is just ugh, ew - PLEASE NO). To then mentally begging that whoever in the writers room loves their soapy incestual family swapping got enough of their fix with OQ's line. Because lets be honest I would not be surprised if RP & FS were blood related, you know for plots & twists.

I wasn't really going there, but it would not surprise me one bit if we found out in season four that Oliver's baby mamma is Felicity's half-sister on her dad's side that she never knew about.

 

I am so hoping Felicity stays an only child.

[wonderwall]

I wasn't really going there, but it would not surprise me one bit if we found out in season four that Oliver's baby mamma is Felicity's half-sister on her dad's side that she never knew about.

 

I am so hoping Felicity stays an only child.

 

Ewwwwwwwwww, I hate you and @kismet for even bringing this idea into this world. :p

[kismet]

I wasn't really going there, but it would not surprise me one bit if we found out in season four that Oliver's baby mamma is Felicity's half-sister on her dad's side that she never knew about.

 

I am so hoping Felicity stays an only child.

I don't need her to be an only child. But any eventual brothers & sisters should not relate back to Oliver's past story in any capacity. That's just too much overlap and coincidence. It's just a little too much soap opera. If they must add FS siblings that should be after season 6 or so when they are needing new characters/blood on the show. They seem to have enough cast right now that they don't know where to place in plot, no need to bloat cast anymore right now. But I honestly, would prefer if she just stays an only child.

Edited May 23, 2015 by kismet

[kismet]

Ewwwwwwwwww, I hate you and @kismet for even bringing this idea into this world. :p

Sorry.... :/ it wasn't my idea. I honestly don't see them connecting Baby Mama to FS. And I do hope they keep FS sibling free. As for all the random siblings popping up everywhere, blame the writers. :)

Edited May 23, 2015 by kismet

[tv echo]

Laurel, Felicity, and Thea are the regulars and there is a good chance that KC is still the lead actress in terms of contracts.

Since we know that SA signed a 6-year contract, it seems likely that KC also signed a 6-year contract.

 

I remember reading an interview with Paul Blackthorne in which he described Sara as the adventurous, risk-taking daughter and Laurel as the bookworm (or words to that effect).  If that is the back story set up for the Lance sisters, then it makes sense that Sara is more likely to have done a lot of physical activities growing up, while Laurel was more often studying or reading.  This would also lead to Sara being more prepared to undertake martial arts training, while making it even more improbable that Laurel could take on League assassins after only 6 months fight training.

Edited May 23, 2015 by tv echo

[FurryFury]

I was watching the leaked Supergirl pilot and I was struck at how much Arrow dropped the ball with Laurel and Sara. Kara and Alex on Supergirl seem to be one of, if not the most, focused relationships in the pilot (and hopefully the whole show) and while there was a scene acknowledging some of the issues between them, and there was a fight, it was so clear how they truly love each other. But in s2, with the "Lance Family Drama" I could never really understand how we were supposed to view Laurel and Sara. One minute Laurel's furious (!) her sister's alive, the next she's giving her dating advice with her former BF. It was so baffling, especially because they probably already knew by then that Sara's death was supposed to make Laurel into a vigilante. Frankly, if this level of writing continues (and considering the overwhelming opinion on s3, it might), I wouldn't be surprised if Laurel's reaction at Sara's next resurrection is, again, anger that her mantle and nickname could be taken back.

Edited May 23, 2015 by FurryFury

[nksarmi]

Ewwwwwwwwww, I hate you and @kismet for even bringing this idea into this world. :p

LOL I'm sorry - I don't want it to happen.  But the unknown factors of Felicity's father make me very nervous.

[kismet]

So just remembered that I'm still bitter at MG for making us all speculate on a 2nd wedding/marriage, that never truly happened. I don't particularly enjoy being purposely trolled with by the EPs in their attempts to drum up fan response. Its one thing to toy with us and drop hints or suggestions. That can be fun and I have loved some of his coy answers. Although some of his responses have been rather douche-level. But its another this to outright lie on multiple posts, unless something was cut from the storyline that he/we don't know about. There are so many other better ways to drum up fan response than to put in misleading information on your tumblr account. Like we have said before, he gets to pick which questions he answers. I just wish he would start answering the questions in a way that is more accurate or leave those questions unanswered. Then again, maybe I should just accept that MG maybe a lying liar who lies.

Edited May 26, 2015 by kismet

[DrSpaceman10]

But Oliver did end up getting married, so MG was telling the truth. Since the LOA is seemingly coming back in S4 (with Damien, Malcolm as Ra's, Sara/Nyssa), the wedding/marriage is something that could definitely be brought up again. Plus, MG did say in a few interviews before the finale that the wedding counted. 

[Password]

The wedding ended up being such rubbish. They threw it in in the hopes it would be brought up in season 4 but I do not care. It affected NOTHING in the finale save a snarky comment or two from Felicity. They still drove away from the sunset together. Why not make up some stupid contrived reason for it to happen in season 4 and work with that.