Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[millennium]

The fact the some of you still think she's only a sidekick, or used for comic relief is doing a disservice to the character.

Plus I just think some people are pissed off because LL is

not the love interest. These shows always have love stories. Some people need to realize that comic books are just a big soap opera all in itself.

 

Hmm. 

 

I haven't seen The Avengers: Age of Ultron yet, but I did see the first Avengers film.   If I'm not mistaken, it was the third highest-grossing film of all time.    It was based on a comic book.    You might even say it was the ultimate comic book movie.   And what do you know?   No shipping.  No soap opera.   Just a team of heroes working together, overcoming their differences and pooling their unique talents to defeat an overwhelming threat.

 

That's all I ask.

[FurryFury]

Too bad they've added a completely unneeded romance in AoU without any real previous set-up. I'll defend Whedon to the death on many of his decisions, but this one sucked ass (unless it was the studio's order - and even then, the execution was very mediocre).

Edited May 9, 2015 by FurryFury

[dtissagirl]

We've talked about this a whole lot, but these conversations keep repeating themselves. The producers treat Arrow like a soap. From an interview with Andrew Kreisberg in February:

Kreisberg added, "I think one of the great strengths of The Flash is just how close everyone is on the show. They tend not to have these raging conflicts the way we giving everybody on Arrow. [Laughs] That show's more of a soap opera -- and I don't say that derogatorily. I mean, I'm one-third responsible for it. [Laughs] But there we always think to ourselves, 'How can we hurt these people more?' You know, 'What's the worst thing we can do to Thea, and what's the worst thing we can do to Laurel? What's the worst thing we can do to Oliver?' That's where the drama comes from. I think part of the strength of The Flash is that the drama comes from how these people who have banded together and love each other and trust each other deal with conflicts that come their way."

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/02/02/the-flash-arrow-lead-brandon-routh-is-going-to-get-some-help-with-his-atom-suit

[FurryFury]

Funnily, I've recently had a thought that Flash really lacks conflict/tension between the heroes, and thus they had to insert that ridiculous lying to Iris drama simply to have something. I think everything is good in moderation. I can understand why it's so annoying when you love the team dynamic to see it constantly being screwed up. I've had this problem on some other shows.

[apinknightmare]

Nor am I looking for a soap opera.   I think turning Felicity into a love interest did a great disservice to both the character and the show.   What was so wrong about Oliver and Felicity simply working together?  Why wasn't that enough?   

 

The answer to this is pretty simple. Oliver needed a love interest, because Laurel—for whatever reason people want to believe—wasn't working out. Whatever market data the money men value at WB (which I'm sure is not Tumblr and Twitter, a claim some people seem to desperately cling to) told them that a large amount of viewers wanted to see Felicity as his love interest, so that's what we're seeing. If that data ever skews to another female on the show, then I'd be willing to bet we'd see Oliver with that other female at some point.

[BCj88]

You know what pisses me off even more after kiling off Sara and using her as a prop to further Laurel ("Canaries", really? Some serious meta going on there..)?
The fact that the writers obviously aren't done sister-swapping because they're seriously setting Laurel up for falling for Nyssa. Why else have the "not date" at the dinner and Laurel lookng seriously depressed when they took Nyssa? It's gross.
It's also gross that Ra's forces his GAY daughter to marry a dude and gives said dude consent to rape his daughter because he wants a grandson. And even implied he did the same to Nyssa's mother, what the fuck?
On another forum I've seen people complain why Nyssa didn't kill herself for real, well I know why, Ra's would probably dump her in the LP and make her do it anyway.
This season is just horrible.

 

[millennium]

The answer to this is pretty simple. Oliver needed a love interest, because Laurel—for whatever reason people want to believe—wasn't working out. Whatever market data the money men value at WB (which I'm sure is not Tumblr and Twitter, a claim some people seem to desperately cling to) told them that a large amount of viewers wanted to see Felicity as his love interest, so that's what we're seeing. If that data ever skews to another female on the show, then I'd be willing to bet we'd see Oliver with that other female at some point.

 

I may be cynical, but I'm not that cynical.    I have to believe writers follow the showrunner's vision, right or wrong.     

But there we always think to ourselves, 'How can we hurt these people more?' You know, 'What's the worst thing we can do to Thea, and what's the worst thing we can do to Laurel? What's the worst thing we can do to Oliver?'

 

And how's that working for ya, Kreisberg? 

 

Jerk.

[apinknightmare]

I may be cynical, but I'm not that cynical.    I have to believe writers follow the showrunner's vision, right or wrong.     

 

Writers do follow what the show runners tell them to, but the show runners don't just get to do whatever they want. If MG and co wanted to make Oliver evil for 10 episodes or return to the Oliver/Laurel romance at this point, or make half a season largely flashbacks to set up a storyline in the future, the people in charge of making this show profitable would step in with a hearty NO, and MG and co. would have to abandon those plans. 

 

I do think that O/F is the pairing that the show runners want, but at this point it's also the pairing that the data is telling them is most popular. So it's a win/win in that regard. 

[dtissagirl]

And how's that working for ya, Kreisberg? 

 

Jerk.

 

Well, the CW has been boasting that the ratings this season have grown 38% compared to last season, which is a legit good number for a third season show on the network, so, unfortunately for unsatisfied fans, it's actually working pretty well for him. I'm bitter about that too.

Edited May 9, 2015 by dancingnancy

[nksarmi]

We've talked about this a whole lot, but these conversations keep repeating themselves. The producers treat Arrow like a soap. From an interview with Andrew Kreisberg in February:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/02/02/the-flash-arrow-lead-brandon-routh-is-going-to-get-some-help-with-his-atom-suit

Eww. That's almost enough to make me not want to watch anymore.  I mean holy crap.  I can't believe they think we enjoy "the worst thing they can do to these characters."  This may have sucked away my entire hope that season four could get better.

Well, the CW has been boasting that the ratings this season have grown 38% compared to last season, which is a legit good number for a third season show on the network, so, unfortunately for unsatisfied fans, it's actually working pretty well for him. I'm bitter about that too.

Yes but how many of those people are like me who caught the first two seasons on Netflix, thought the show was awesome, and are now in season three thinking wtf? is it going to get back to where it was? ok I'll stick it out and see where this goes, but ugh this is kind of depressing.

 

I mean seriously, we are sitting here wondering if the EPs hate KC and it turns out the answer is no, they just hate all of the characters and want to put them all through hell and think we will turn in episode after episode - even if it doesn't get better.

[calliope1975]

I guess my question is why can't we have romance on a superhero show? A good romance, mind you. I don't think we've gotten a good anything this year. I love action superhero shows. I also like a bit of romance. I'm one of those who wanted Felicity and Oliver to get together and have it be no big deal. I feel like the forced angst was terrible. 

 

I understand arguments for both. I loved Mulder and Scully as friends though I think I always wanted them to get together at some point, but I thought the romance in Age of Ultron didn't have enough build up and was clunky. 

 

Most aspects of a show come down to the writing, then the acting, directing, etc., and the writing has been sorely lacking in all areas this year. I hope their mindset gets overhauled over the summer, but I'm not very optimistic.

[olicityfan25]

Would you rather see Oliver plant his seed In every woman like he was doing before? I'd rather see him with one woman and even Stephen Amell voiced his concern about this to the producers and they listened to him. Plus I wasn't talking about films. I was talking about TV shows and how most of them have these love stories.

[jay741982]

For what it's worth Guggie said they are going for a Balance next season.

[kismet]

Honestly, I don't think its FS as the LI is the problem; its how they are writing the love story. If they stepped away from the angst and just wrote a realistic perhaps even happy love story they would not have this problem. But this year they buried all their characters in angst & it just isn't working.

FS was always more than just a humorous side kick, that is insulting to her character. But this year, they just haven't written her character for her character. I feel like she was a prop in Ray's story & a melodramatic wedge in Oliver's story. Honestly, I hope next season they just write her character for her own character & story. No more prop/wedge for her.

[strikera0]

Well, the CW has been boasting that the ratings this season have grown 38% compared to last season, which is a legit good number for a third season show on the network, so, unfortunately for unsatisfied fans, it's actually working pretty well for him. I'm bitter about that too.

 

I don't know why people in this fandom continue to misquote the CW press releases but I see it all the time. The ratings haven't grown by 38% compared to last season. The 38% growth refers to the increase in Live + 3 Day ratings over Live + Same Day numbers for this year. The CW would love for Arrow's audience to have grown by 38%, but while the numbers have increased, the growth doesn't come close to that bench mark.

Edited May 10, 2015 by strikera0

[Password]

I'm quite confused by comments stating that Olicity has brought down the season. What is it exactly about Olicity that has made things so terrible? And for that matter, if Olicity weren't a thing, would that have made season 3 so much better?

[NumberCruncher]

Even without all of the unnecessary relationship angst S3 would still be have been subpar, IMO. All of the plotlines suffered from an insane amount of inconsistency and WTF moments. That coupled with the fact that they rushed through all of the character/story developments are what made it less than enjoyable. People just like to zero in on the one aspect they hate rather than acknowledge that the problems ran much, much deeper across the whole show.

Edited May 11, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[calliope1975]

For me, S3 was a bust from the get go by fridging Sara. I really enjoyed "The Calm" until those last 5 minutes. I could have come around if her death was the result of something logical, but it wasn't. Combined with too much angst and sadness, a grimdark plot that wholesale ripped off Batman, characters changing personalities for plot, an extremely weak main villain, and the ridiculous attempt to make a psychopathic mass murderer sympathetic has come very close to killing my good will towards this show. Fortunately for them, this is the show my brain has decided to obsess on, and I can't quite let it go just yet. 

 

Add the terrible writing for plot to a downgrade in stunts and overall decrease in direction, set design, and editing, and the hints of Olicity are a big reason I'm still watching at all. 

[Chaser]

I'm quite confused by comments stating that Olicity has brought down the season. What is it exactly about Olicity that has made things so terrible? And for that matter, if Olicity weren't a thing, would that have made season 3 so much better?

IMO, Olicity is quite low on the list of problems this season had. A subpar villain, poorly done mutiple hero stories that took attention from Oliver, Malcolm, plot holes galore, a broken up Team Arrow all top my list.

 

I will say though that putting Olicity together would have helped the season. It needed a bright spot and some levity. Olicity could have made the above problems more tolerable.

 

I've said before, Olicity is the easiet target because its the more vocal part of the fandom and shipping is 'uncool.'

Edited May 11, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Sakura12]

I think people just need to find an excuse as to why this season was so terrible. They choose Olicity instead of it just being terrible in general. When I think I was distracted by the shiny (stunts and things) the past 2 seasons and didn't notice that this show's writing is weak. Arrow has made me notice it on Flash. 

 

Didn't they say before the season, that this was there most planned out season or something? You couldn't tell, since it looked like they were making everything up episode by episode. 

[catahoulamama]

Eww. That's almost enough to make me not want to watch anymore.  I mean holy crap.  I can't believe they think we enjoy "the worst thing they can do to these characters."  This may have sucked away my entire hope that season four could get better.

Yes but how many of those people are like me who caught the first two seasons on Netflix, thought the show was awesome, and are now in season three thinking wtf? is it going to get back to where it was? ok I'll stick it out and see where this goes, but ugh this is kind of depressing.

 

I mean seriously, we are sitting here wondering if the EPs hate KC and it turns out the answer is no, they just hate all of the characters and want to put them all through hell and think we will turn in episode after episode - even if it doesn't get better.

It's just so stupid and short sighted.  Most people won't stick with a show (aside from masochists) if all they're going to do is hurl every horrible scenario they can dream up at the characters with no let up.  There has to be some sort of balance between good & evil, and light and dark or people will eventually just walk away. 

 

Count me as one who's mind is boggled by the increased ratings this season.  Hard to know how much of a bump they got from new viewers gained from the Flash audience who knew nothing of Arrow before that.  I was one of those.  I started Flash from the start because someone from a soap I watched a million years ago was going to be on it and saw Oliver show up on the pilot.  I started watching Arrow to see what his story was and then a couple episodes in fell into a (completely obsessive) binge-a-thon of S1 and 2 on Netflix.  Once caught up I found myself several episodes into this season going "WTF are they doing?"  Both shows (Arrow and Flash) could benefit from a little more balance of light and dark for sure.

Honestly, I don't think its FS as the LI is the problem; its how they are writing the love story. If they stepped away from the angst and just wrote a realistic perhaps even happy love story they would not have this problem. But this year they buried all their characters in angst & it just isn't working.

FS was always more than just a humorous side kick, that is insulting to her character. But this year, they just haven't written her character for her character. I feel like she was a prop in Ray's story & a melodramatic wedge in Oliver's story. Honestly, I hope next season they just write her character for her own character & story. No more prop/wedge for her.

As a fan of Olicity, I'm done with the "angst of the week" concept. It's immature and stupid.  If they put them together and then treated their relationship like they do with Diggle and Lyla, I'd be happy. They're together and it's just an accepted fact of life.  They live together, work together, and support each other.  For Olicity, put them together and move forward.  The fact that they're together should add to the story, not just BE the whole story.

[FurryFury]

I still think Arrow was overall a much better show in seasons "1B" (let's call it that) and "2A" than The Flash ever was, even at its beginning. Partly, it just fit my preferences better (a more grounded tone, a hero missing some of the traits I despise - being afraid to kill especially, more female characters with agency, less focused on the main character, much less problematic treatment of women), but I really do believe it simply wasn't as formulaic and felt more bold.This culminated in the absolutely fantastic 9 episodes of season 2, which will forever make me mourn the show it could have been. But then Kreisberg departed for The Flash and the magic was lost. I suspect he and MG are just two writers that are good together but absolutely awful on their own. Instead of one great show we got 2 bad, and I'll never be over it. LoA as presented in 2A was something I could see the whole show centered about, like Wolfram and Hart from Angel. Instead of that, we got a laughable Ra's who'll be inevitably defeated in the season finale. Sara was a fantastic character with some truly inspired writing that could have become a symbol as a real feminist superhero and anti-hero all in one package, plus she had a lot of plot relevance - but she got sacrificed on the altar of a character who clearly doesn't belong on the show. Slade could have been THE villain, and even more - but he was reduced to a crazy rival and a jilted wannabe boyfriend, and then they just got rid of him and decided to redeem Malcolm Merlyn instead, only without an actual redemption, everybody simply forgot the stuff he had pulled in season 1 (hello, Regina Mills!)

 

It's weird because while I don't watch Arrow and still watch The Flash I have much stronger opinions about the former and I overall care much more.

Edited May 11, 2015 by FurryFury

[nksarmi]

Somewhere in the middle of bing watching seasons one and two of Arrow on Netflix, I literally said - this show is better than any show on network television has any right to be.

 

Season three of Arrow is NOT that show.  This season has huge plot holes, Malcolm (just WTF!?!), full of needless angst and gloom, and worst of all - its repetitive.  I will sign on for season four in spite of this season, not because of it.  I hope this show can go back to being what blew me away the first two seasons.

[catahoulamama]

Somewhere in the middle of bing watching seasons one and two of Arrow on Netflix, I literally said - this show is better than any show on network television has any right to be.

 

Season three of Arrow is NOT that show.  This season has huge plot holes, Malcolm (just WTF!?!), full of needless angst and gloom, and worst of all - its repetitive.  I will sign on for season four in spite of this season, not because of it.  I hope this show can go back to being what blew me away the first two seasons.

I'm hopeful for S4 to be more like S1&2 and hope that this year may have been an anomaly. The prospect of Bratva!Oliver is enough to get me to give it a shot, but after this season, they're on a very short leash AFAIC.  Whoever it was who posted earlier about splitting up MG and AK was right, IMO.  Separate, they seem to go to extremes, but together, the product was much better and they tend to balance each other out, rein each other in or something. It'll be interesting to see how adding a third show to the franchise will affect both Arrow and Flash.

[Chaser]

It occurred to me awhile ago, but every female character has been the target of intense hate in one season or another. I don't recall any male character ever receiving anything to that level. 

 

I know that the Arrow Facebook paged is filled with it, but what about SA's page? 

 

What to the show runners see? Do you look at Felicity and say people preferred her as 'sidekick/comic relief' and put her back in that box, ending Olicity? Or do you say, people prefer her happy and close to Oliver like S2/S, so continue ahead with Olicity. I'm really rather concerned about my favorite.

 

Separating Team Arrow didn't do them any favors. Do they continue that drama? 

[NumberCruncher]

It occurred to me awhile ago, but every female character has been the target of intense hate in one season or another. I don't recall any male character ever receiving anything to that level.

That's because the male characters don't and usually the intense hate is focused around a female character daring to express emotion--whether it be anger or sadness. Thea and Laurel got it in S1. Laurel got most of it in S2 and now Felicity in S3. Apparently any female character that expels wetness from the ocular region is a total drag on the show. Take from that what you will. I wouldn't worry though--just as soon as the womenfolk are back to kicking ass, being happy/quippy, and looking hot, they'll be awesome characters again. ;)

[Menrva]

That's because the male characters don't and usually the intense hate is focused around a female character daring to express emotion--whether it be anger or sadness. Thea and Laurel got it in S1. Laurel got most of it in S2 and now Felicity in S3. Apparently any female character that expels wetness from the ocular region is a total drag on the show. Take from that what you will. I wouldn't worry though--just as soon as the womenfolk are back to kicking ass, being happy/quippy, and looking hot, they'll be awesome characters again. ;)

I agree with all of this and it's so frustrating and discouraging. But the reflection of it is also true and it drives a lot of the idiotic choices, Oliver in particular, characters made this season. The male characters aren't allowed to express their emotions fully either; they deny their own happiness, they must appear steadfast and stoic. Rarely do you see a male character cry. It was a relief for me to see Oliver shed tears over Thea in the hospital. I believe we also saw Roy cry this season. Diggle is probably the most balanced and honest character on the show.

Over on the Flash, I was so impressed to see Cisco's tears when he was confronted by the Reverse Flash.

 

All this macho behavior really is tiresome and allows very little growth. It seems unfair that because of behavioral stereotypes, men have to be strong and women are weepy. I know it's a superhero show and people are supposed to be brave and fearless, but it would be so refreshing for people to show some honesty in their feelings. I'm not saying that no one has ever said they were scared or angry or hopeless, but there's so much manufactured angst for the sake of draining the last dregs of stupid obstacles in relationships. So tired of all the angst. I mean, they're dealing with earth-shattering, life-changing events on a fairly regular basis; obviously it takes a toll on them. 

[apinknightmare]

I think Oliver's pretty open with his emotions. We've seen him cry several times over the course of the series - when Tommy died, when he's talked about the island. He begged for his mother's life, and he cried while doing it. He didn't break down when Sara died, but that's because he thought he had to hold it together for everyone else. He admits that he's scared of things...I think Oliver's the most open out of all of the men, when it should probably be the opposite. 

Edited May 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[NumberCruncher]

Yeah, I agree that Oliver expresses himself the most emotionally and he's a crier which only makes the double standard more puzzling to me. How much have we watched Oliver mope over the course of 3 seasons? Way more than any of the women.

[Password]

Oliver's middle names are Jonas Manpain. He's the biggest moper of the lot.

[tarotx]

Oliver gets a lot hate...

[nksarmi]

You know, it seems like a double standard, but let's see if this "tension" between Diggle and Oliver continues next season, if the same fans that bitch about Laurel and Felicity's whininess don't turn on Diggle.  I mean, Tommy didn't get to be "anti-Oliver" very long before he died so I'm not sure if fans got a chance to turn on him.  Roy was only "anti-Oliver" for about five seconds in one episode this season and I still saw people on the FB page tell him to shut the hell up, he'd be nothing without Oliver.

 

I really think there is a group who thinks Oliver is so great that anyone who opposes him for any reason - Thea, Laurel, Felicity, Roy, whoever - needs to just sit down, shut up, and be schooled.  It's like no matter how stupid the writers make Oliver and no matter how much pain he causes his friends, if those characters call him on it - they are just getting in the way of Oliver being the hero.  And frankly, I think the writers need to realize when they are making their hero unlikeable so hopefully they can fix it.

 

And I think there have been times over the seasons where the "whiney" women made sense character wise - Thea deserved to be pissed at Oliver in season one.  He came back from the dead and then still abandoned her emotionally.  I don't feel like Oliver's relationship with Thea was well developed early on, especially now that they have retconned it so that he knew she had a drug problem before he even came back.

 

Also, as much as I disliked Laurel's drug addict story in season two, I damn well think Oliver AND Sara came off as a couple of selfish, self-involved assholes at that dinner party and this is coming from someone who loves Sara.  And this season with Oliver protecting Malcolm, Laurel's anger toward Oliver is very legit and to be honest, I'm not sure she hates him enough if we want to talk believability.

 

Then there is Felicity this season.  Dear lord, how could the woman be anything but an emotional mess considering all Oliver has put her through? 

 

Now we have pending tension between Oliver and Diggle over totally legitimate issues.  I doubt Diggle will be whiney or cry, but if the audience turns on him despite the fact that he will most likely be in the right - then I think we can just chalk all of this up to "whoever disagrees with out hero sucks!"

 

Of course, there is the other possibility that people do understand why the women are whining, but because the show has given us too much angst to endure, they just don't care any more.

[Sunshine]

Some fans have already turned on Diggle.  How dare he interfere with Oliver's plans.  I have read several places that he has become annoying and just needs to STFU.

[nksarmi]

Some fans have already turned on Diggle.  How dare he interfere with Oliver's plans.  I have read several places that he has become annoying and just needs to STFU.

I got turned off of FB right before I came here.  But I'm so not surprised. 

[Menrva]

I just wish we could see another emotion than man pain for Oliver. I get that he's mopey, he's depressed, he's grim - but is that all there really is to him? If next season's theme is Balance, then I'd like to see that for Oliver. He should take some sort of pride in his determination to stay alive, his skills as a fighter and archer, his devotion to his friends. Instead, Oliver goes about as though he is under a curse. He does have good in him - otherwise, Diggle, Felicity and Roy would have moved on long ago.

[moviewhore]

I'm still pissed that Roy took off on Thea like he did.  That was like a pump and dump to me.  And made him a hypocritical asshole since he accused her of running away from her problems.  Seriously, Ollie supposedly turned into a monster and she needed stability and for her boyfriend to stick around for a while. 

 

This show is just grueling bullshit with no real decent storytelling and characterization that makes sense.  I mean, why the fuck didn't Ollie clue everyone in on his fucking plan, especially Diggie.  Christ, he's palling around with the big bad while his team is going "what the fuck?" I still remember his "friends" being gassed and knowing that it was Ollie who did that, still fronting. 

 

Yet if fans complain they're haters.  Well, there is a lot to hate on Arrow nowadays.  Especially a woman being forced into marriage by her father, which is appalling on a thousand levels. 

[apinknightmare]

I'm still pissed that Roy took off on Thea like he did.  That was like a pump and dump to me.  And made him a hypocritical asshole since he accused her of running away from her problems.  

 

It's a little different IMO. Thea was running away from Starling City because she has a history of avoiding her problems and was looking to Roy to distract her from them. Roy was literally on the run because he faked his own death to get her brother out of legal trouble. Thea showed up unbeknownst to him - it's not like he went looking for her and then decided to leave her there. He had to get out of town and didn't want to go on the run with her - shitty for her, but it's well within his rights to make that decision.

[statsgirl]

Thea went looking for Roy because she had lost everyone else who was important to her.  Robert and Moira were dead, Malcolm had brainwashed her to kill her friend and Oliver had become Al Sah Him. Even Verdant was lost to her with the police raiding the lair.  There was literally nothing left for her in Starling City any more.

 

She went looking for the one person in the world who she still had.  And like the other men in her life, he decided unilaterally was best for her..

[apinknightmare]

She also admitted to running away from her problems because everything was easier with him. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a satisfying life on the run. 

 

I'd consider Oliver going to NP to get Malcolm back because he didn't want her to feel the regret of killing her father or whatever was unilaterally making a decision for her. Roy's allowed to remove himself as a relationship option in her life for whatever reason he pleases - that's the beauty/pain of a relationship requiring consent from two people (unless you're Nyssa al Ghul, another flashing neon light example of a man making a woman's decision for her). 

[statsgirl]

Roy removed himself as a relationship option because he decided that it was better for Thea that way, not necessarily because that's what he wanted for himself.  If he didn't want a relationship with her because he didn't want to be in a relationship with her, that's one thing.  But he clearly did, and he shouldn't decide for Thea what's best for her without giving her a chance for any input into it.  She's an adult, she should be allowed to decide for herself if she want to be on the run with Roy or alone in Starling City,

 

This season has been all about men making unilateral decisions about the women in their lives -- Oliver deciding no relationship with Felicity and protecting Malcolm, saving making and forcing Thea to take care of Malcolm as being best for Thea; everything Malcolm did to Thea; Roy deciding Thea should not be on the run with him; Ra's forcing Nyssa to marry Oliver.  (We can even add Barry, Joe and Eddie deciding not to tell Iris who the Flash is.)

 

At least the decisions Ray made for Felicity, to give her his company, can be reversed, unlike the others.

 

There is however one example of a woman making a decision for a man this season -- Laurel deciding not to tell her father that Sara was dead. And we know how well that turned out.

[apinknightmare]

I firmly believe that relationship decisions are never unilateral, I don't care what the reasoning is. If someone doesn't want to/doesn't think they can be with me for whatever reason and they aren't willing to commit to it? Then go. If someone needs to be convinced to stick around or if they're willing to leave in the first place, they're not in it, so I don't want to waste my time or put my heart into someone like that. Roy wasn't in it for whatever reason - bye then. 

 

I don't disagree with you that there's been a lot of other decision-making going on, though. 

Edited May 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

I firmly believe that relationship decisions are never unilateral,

But wasn't Roy leaving Thea unilateral?  While she slept?  Three episodes earlier Thea was saying she was an idiot for dumping him and he was agreeing that they should be together. Now he's leaving like a thief in the night. 

 

If Roy didn't want someone with him at all while he was running, then I might agree.  But since it sounds like the only reason he left her is because he didn't want Thea to have to be running, it feels like he's making a decision for her.

[apinknightmare]

But wasn't Roy leaving Thea unilateral?  While she slept?  Three episodes earlier Thea was saying she was an idiot for dumping him and he was agreeing that they should be together. Now he's leaving like a thief in the night. 

 

If Roy didn't want someone with him at all while he was running, then I might agree.  But since it sounds like the only reason he left her is because he didn't want Thea to have to be running, it feels like he's making a decision for her.

 

Yeah, I realized too late that I used the wrong wording, but you had already replied, haha.

 

To me, Roy's making a decision to not be in a relationship with Thea. It doesn't matter what his reasoning is, that's the decision he's making. If it's because he doesn't want Thea to live that kind of life and he's not willing to be in a relationship with her while he does live that life, then so be it. He's allowed to make that decision for himself because it concerns him too. And honestly, I'm not going to hold Roy to something he said before he became a fugitive. 

 

If I'm the fugitive and some man that I love (and left behind and didn't let know I was alive) wants to come on the run with me and I don't want him to for whatever reason, either because the guilt would eat me up or because I'd feel like I was dragging him down or whatever, then I'm allowed to make that decision. He wants to be with me, but I don't want him to. It's a very different situation from, say, Oliver going and completely undoing Thea turning Malcolm over to Ra's or Oliver leaving Malcolm to recuperate on her couch. Thea's relationship with Malcolm has no effect on Oliver, but he makes decisions for her based on what he thinks that relationship should be. Not cool. One side of a two-sided relationship has a right to end it for whatever reason - the other person doesn't get a say. 

Edited May 12, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Sunshine]

Thea's decision making skills have been about on par with her brother's since the end of S2.

[AyChihuahua]

This show is just really good at fixing things that were never broken, thereby totally breaking them.  Characters, relationships, past storylines, etc.  It's really a gift.

[nksarmi]

I firmly believe that relationship decisions are never unilateral, I don't care what the reasoning is. If someone doesn't want to/doesn't think they can be with me for whatever reason and they aren't willing to commit to it? Then go. If someone needs to be convinced to stick around or if they're willing to leave in the first place, they're not in it, so I don't want to waste my time or put my heart into someone like that. Roy wasn't in it for whatever reason - bye then. 

 

I don't disagree with you that there's been a lot of other decision-making going on, though. 

I think the look Thea had at the end of the episode when she saw that he gave her the costume said that maybe that was in fact what she needed.  Roy loves Thea and if he knew she wanted to run with him to be with him, I think he'd go for it.  But he has doubts and frankly, if you are on the run from the law, doing it with someone who might not be all in - might be dangerous.  We know there are real life reasons for what happened, but I still hope Roy/Colton returns for Thea someday or she gets Felicity to find him and tells him this time she won't let him go.

[chaos is welcome]

I am bitter because the pop arrow characters are available for purchase, but there is no Felicity or Diggle. But I can totes have BC. fML. And now I can't even buy Arrow/oliver Queen, on principal.

[calliope1975]

I am bitter because the pop arrow characters are available for purchase, but there is no Felicity or Diggle. But I can totes have BC. fML. And now I can't even buy Arrow/oliver Queen, on principal.

 

I bought Arrow and BC but only because it was Sara. Pop Funko is forever behind on the characters people really want.

[kismet]

Im bitter because I just read in the spoilers section

that the show wants to lighten its tone next season

, however they mentioned the loss of Barry & Ray to other shows. If you look at s1 & early s2, there was humor & light moments without these added guest stars. I don't understand why they can't just write a lighter show using the talented cast they have. Its just ridiculous that they feel the need to bring in other people rather than just write a better script.

[wonderwall]

I feel like the last 3 episodes could've worked SO WELL if Ra's was the least bit intimidating. Oliver sacrificing himself to save the people he loves, him becoming Al Sahim etc. It could've worked. But Ra's wasn't intimidating nor was his endgame.