All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Wayward Son]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Two hander doesn't mean they have to be in every episode TOGETHER. Scully and Mulder weren't always together. And thinking back SPN separated the boys more in 2, 4,5,6,7 and 9 and for me those are some of the better seasons because they split them up for organic story reasons. So I don't think it's A RULE or even the nature of the beast of two handers but more the unwillingness of fans to accept them being apart for five freaking minutes.

Since WS is already designed to be ensemble I'm sure there will be much more moving around of characters and different parings.

I wasn’t even talking about the refusal to seperate the brothers (although thats a different issue). I’m talking more about how they won’t allow other characters to appear in every episode of a season even when they should. I strongly believe that Castiel should have been in every episode of season six. His storyline that season was extremely important to the overall mythology and on a character level we needed to be able to see his mindset every step of the way. There shouldn’t be fans (and not just the ones who mindlessly hate him) who believe that Castiel brought back Sam soulless on purpose and there shouldn’t be debates on his motivations throughout season 6, as some believe it was a selfish power play. These questions are there because most of his story was told off screen and they gave us his perspective for a total of one episode. I’m not saying he has to be in every episode of every season, but definitely season 6. Likewise, IMO last year Mary Winchester underwent character assassination because of the two hander inflexibility. They needed a reason for her to not live in the bunker and reconnect with her sons so the made her unfeeling bitch for most of the season.  She should have been allowed to star in all (or at least most) episodes last year and then this year she should have moved out and started living her own life. 

 

On to speculation time

Spoiler

I suspect Jack will end up suffering a similar fate in 13B. Since he has used up most of his 11-13 appearances for 13A most of his stuff will take place off screen leaving his remaining seasonal storyline fractured and uneven. 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

His storyline that season was extremely important to the overall mythology and on a character level we needed to be able to see his mindset every step of the way. There shouldn’t be fans (and not just the ones who mindlessly hate him) who believe that Castiel brought back Sam soulless on purpose and there shouldn’t be debates on his motivations throughout season 6, as some believe it was a selfish power play. These questions are there because most of his story was told off screen and they gave us his perspective for a total of one episode. I’m not saying he has to be in every episode of every season, but definitely season 6.

I don't think that's true.  Sam was in every episode of Seasons 9 and 10 and I've seen debates that the reason he wanted Dean to get rid of the mark of Cain was because he wanted it himself. I could give other examples of what I feel are ridiculous debates  But, my point is that Cas being in every episode of season 6 may not have made him more sympathetic to those who would thnk that.

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think that's true.  Sam was in every episode of Seasons 9 and 10 and I've seen debates that the reason he wanted Dean to get rid of the mark of Cain was because he wanted it himself. I could give other examples of what I feel are ridiculous debates  But, my point is that Cas being in every episode of season 6 may not have made him more sympathetic to those who would thnk that.

I honestly have never seen that argument re Sam and the Mark of Cain. I’m not arguing against it’s existence. I’ve just never seen it. Whereas I’ve seen the “Cas brought Sam back on soulless to cover his track” debate in multiple places such as here, Twitter and tumblr. I’ve seen that argument come from those which are neutral on Cas for the most part or even some who like him otherwise rather than just the haters. And that’s why I put it down to a failure on the shows part.

 

Im curious where did you see people arguing Sam only wanted to take the mark for himself?

Edited December 8, 2017 by Wayward Son

[AwesomO4000]

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

His storyline that season was extremely important to the overall mythology and on a character level we needed to be able to see his mindset every step of the way. There shouldn’t be fans (and not just the ones who mindlessly hate him) who believe that Castiel brought back Sam soulless on purpose and there shouldn’t be debates on his motivations throughout season 6, as some believe it was a selfish power play. These questions are there because most of his story was told off screen and they gave us his perspective for a total of one episode. I’m not saying he has to be in every episode of every season, but definitely season 6.

I know you disagree, but I thought that Castiel's motivations in season 6 were well explained by what we got. And screentime doesn't mean more explanation if the writers or showrunners don't want to give it... Take the first half of season 8 for example. Sam was in every episode. We got numerous mostly boring flashbacks with Amelia. but none of those covered how Sam was feeling or what he was doing immediately after Dean got blown away with Dick Roman. We don't even know how much time passed before Sam "hit a dog." There wasn't one - in my opinion - really good explanation given for why Sam didn't look for Kevin. No emotional defense was given for Sam's "ehn it wasn't my problem any more" attitude, leading to a lot of "Sam obviously doesn't give a crap about anyone but himself" explanations... which the show never bothered to counter.

However it got made, in my opinion, that one episode - "The Man Who Would Be King" - gave much more insight into how Castiel ended up where he did than all of the episodes in the first half of season 8 gave Sam even though Sam was in every episode... actually some of those episodes made it worse - like "Citizen Fang." I would have loved to have had an episode like "The Man Who Would Be King" in season 8A for Sam, but the writers then couldn't be bothered to give one. I could say more but it would be "Bitch versus Jerk" and I've pretty much said it all before anyway.

26 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

There shouldn’t be fans (and not just the ones who mindlessly hate him) who believe that Castiel brought back Sam soulless on purpose

I don't understand why there would be or at least I should say I don't know why there still would be (I could understand mid season 6 speculation). It was spelled out exactly in "The Man Who Would Be King" (TMWWBK) how Sam came back soulless and that it was a mistake... Now as for Castiel's motivations on arguing that maybe Sam should remain soulless and his not bringing up concerns about Sam maybe being off to Dean sooner - those I can see debates or questions over, because that was a complicated issue. In the end, I personally don't think Castiel had the understanding to distinguish the fundamental worth of soulless Sam versus regular Sam enough to justify putting the damaged soul back into Sam - because then there was a chance of losing Sam entirely. On the other hand, I could also see arguments that Castiel having to tell Dean something might be wrong with Sam and Dean bringing Sam's soul back might both be hairy situations for Castiel that Cas might not have wanted to deal with and so his motivations for questioning the soul return might be argued as questionably motivated... both in terms of Dean finding out how Sam came back soulless (which would've lead to a bunch of not comfortable explanations), and because then Castiel would be faced with the consequences of what happened to Sam's soul - and so therefore why Castiel might want to delay and/or not be faced with that. But for me those motivations were not only understandable, they made Castiel interesting as a character that he might have been grappling with those types of things - as shown later in "TMWWBK."

So to sum up - I generally more saw questions of motivation as to why Castiel would argue that Sam not be resouled... not that he would make Sam soulless on purpose to begin with, because not only was that addressed later, the motivation for bringing back a soulless Sam wasn't there for Castiel (why would he want or need Sam soulless based on the history / motivation we saw in "TMWWBK"- to me it makes little sense). Also the question of Castiel bringing Sam back soulless on purpose was addressed and answered in "TMWWBK" that he didn't. Why would Castiel lie in his inner monologue to himself or if he would, why wouldn't the explanatory episode actually explain that to us the audience? So any questions or theories proposed previously to that episode were then answered and/or debunked by that episode. For me, that falls much less into interpretation territory than at least a half dozen theories and questions of motivation for Sam and/or Dean who were onscreen all of the time, but their motives weren't so precisely explained during that screentime.

But I understand also that miles vary, so I could be wrong.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Sam was in every episode of Seasons 9 and 10 and I've seen debates that the reason he wanted Dean to get rid of the mark of Cain was because he wanted it himself.

I think the main worry for Dean-fans (as it was for me) was that the writers were gonna give it to Sam and then of course it would bloom into a big, world-saving mytharc because of that. Whereas I believe Sam wanted the trials because he wanted the heroic quest. The MOC was obviously a dark arc, it might have transformed into something positive, but the characters couldn`t guess that so it would have made no sense for Sam to want it in the first place.

As for Cas in Season 6, I agree that his storyline deserved more screentime and exploration. I know, I know, they wanted to keep it a surprise and overall the episode "The Man who would be King" was really strong. But Cas` arc was the freaking main storyline of the Season, the audience just didn`t know it until close to Season Finale. I thought that was bad storytelling. Since I didn`t particularly like the red herrings that were used to keep the main story a secret, I felt even more like I had wasted my time on them when it was revealed.     

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Something I noticed while recently watching the end of S7, and it particularly stood out to me with S13 going on.  When Kevin becomes a prophet, and whenever he receives 'revelation' from God his eyes glow gold.  Jack's eyes glow gold particularly when he is using his powers.  I wonder if this is coincidence or was it planned to be some how related or a call back to prophetic visions? 

I thought maybe they just ran out of colors: you know, didn't want to use red since they'd shown Lucifer's eyes glowing red and that would seem to indicate that Jack was evil off the bat, and pink might be too easily mistaken for red.  Black also means demon eyes.  Blue is angel eyes, but he's only half angel.  Green would be too Wicked Witch maybe?  I guess they could have gone with silver.  The fact that they didn't makes me think choosing the gold was intentional.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Something I noticed while recently watching the end of S7, and it particularly stood out to me with S13 going on.  When Kevin becomes a prophet, and whenever he receives 'revelation' from God his eyes glow gold.  Jack's eyes glow gold particularly when he is using his powers.  I wonder if this is coincidence or was it planned to be some how related or a call back to prophetic visions? 

I thought maybe they just ran out of colors: you know, didn't want to use red since they'd shown Lucifer's eyes glowing red and that would seem to indicate that Jack was evil off the bat, and pink might be too easily mistaken for red.  Black also means demon eyes.  Blue is angel eyes, but he's only half angel.  Green would be too Wicked Witch maybe?  I guess they could have gone with silver.  The fact that they didn't makes me think choosing the gold was intentional.

Presonally, I'm thinking coincidence, but you never know.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Presonally, I'm thinking coincidence, but you never know.

See, I thought coincidence at first too.  But the more I paid attention to the way that Kevin's eyes glowed, the effects are practically identical  to the way that Jack's eyes glow, the more it seems like it may have been intentional.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

See, I thought coincidence at first too.  But the more I paid attention to the way that Kevin's eyes glowed, the effects are practically identical  to the way that Jack's eyes glow, the more it seems like it may have been intentional.  

I think it's just a continuity flub. Jack's eyes still have dark pupils which expand when his irises go gold. Kevin and Donatello just kind of glaze over in more of amber shade to my eye. And only when they become the prophets. I . I would be surprised if there was any connection to Jack other than Donatello can feel the force of him which should apply to any nephilims.  AU Kevin should probably be able to since Jack in the AU if it works the same.

[DeeDee79]

Speaking of eyes I have a question. This more than likely has been discussed before but has there ever been a mention regarding the differing eye color amongst the demons and the significance of them? I'd thought that the lower level demons had the black eyes while the ones with more power ( Crowley, Lilith, Azazel, Alastair ) differed. However, Abbadon was a knight of hell and she had black eyes so that blew that theory out of the water.. And all of the crossroads demons have red eyes like Crowley. Has there ever been a mention on this that anyone can recall on the show or even at one of the cons?

[Katy M]

13 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Speaking of eyes I have a question. This more than likely has been discussed before but has there ever been a mention regarding the differing eye color amongst the demons and the significance of them? I'd thought that the lower level demons had the black eyes while the ones with more power ( Crowley, Lilith, Azazel, Alastair ) differed. However, Abbadon was a knight of hell and she had black eyes so that blew that theory out of the water.. And all of the crossroads demons have red eyes like Crowley. Has there ever been a mention on this that anyone can recall on the show or even at one of the cons?

Here's what we know for sure: CRDs have red eyes.  Alistair and Lillith appear to be the only white eyed demons and they were very powerful, Lillith was the first demon.  Princes of Hell have yellow eyes. 

Everybody else appears to have black eyes.

So, my theory.  Lillith was the first demon and twisted especially by Lucifer and  he gave her white eyes. Alistair must have been shortly thereafter.  Lucifer was also personal involved with twisting the Princes of Hell and gave them yellow eyes.  All other demons just naturally get black eyes.  But, while becoming a demon, if they are slotted for the crossroads, they are somehow given red eyes. Perhaps by their torturers.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that demon eyes default to black unless there is some interference by something or someone strong enough to change the color.  It's probably more a uniform thing than actually giving them, or coming from, power.

[catrox14]

On 11/26/2017 at 7:51 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Full disclosure, I would much rather have seen Dean reunite with Cassie than Lisa. But all those reasons you listed in the bolded are the same reasons why I think Lisa might have lied about Ben's parentage. Substitute fighting the apocalypse for finding Dad in S5, and Dean's general mental state in S6, and there is a solid argument against telling hm. I'm not fighting canon - just saying if they did decide to retcon it one day, I could accept it.

Lisa was one step from marriage to Dean given  they were living together and she knew what Dean's life was all about. She knew the risks when she let Dean move in and act as a step parent to Ben. So why would she not have told him then that Ben was his kid at that point? The only reason for Lisa to not tell Dean is to not lay more guilt on Dean.

She had to have known that Sam and Dean were vessels right? So she  must have known what that would mean for her son being a possible vessel himself because he has Winchester blood. Even if she didn't , the angels knew about Adam before Sam and Dean did which is why they defaulted to him. Since Dean was the chosen vessel wouldn't they have wanted his kin more than Adam who was already dead? Like wouldn't it have been more advantageous to the angels to use Ben as leverage to get Dean to say yes?  Rather than use all that angel power to resurrect a dead guy?Like to me, they didn't do that because the intention was Ben wasn't Dean's child or they would have made that a bigger plot point in s5.

 

The demons came after them anyway so Ben being Dean's kid doesn't change any of that.

IMO, the only reason to bring in a retcon is to have Dean have a legacy and for that to be a problem for him. Like to me, it doesn't make Lisa look good either to lie to Dean even if she thought it was to protect Ben, because it wouldn't make any difference to angels who would already know his lineage.Nor to demons who still used them as leverage anyway.

All it does is put Dean at a disadvantage with protecting him because he doesn't know that his kid could be a vessel. I just don't believe the writers intended for us to think Lisa lied to Dean. And really if Dean thought she might be lying why wouldn't he have asked for a paternity test when they lived together for a year?IIt also goes against the theme of family doesnt end with blood they drove home with Bobby. So Dean being Ben's step parent makes a lot more sense IMO than a retcin that he is Dean's kid. And Dean wiping their memories doesn't change that they would already be targets for demons and angels so why Sera let that stand is beyond me .

For me, there is little reason to retcon it other than to bring Ben is as Michael's vessel. They can still bring in Ben as a hunter who maybe saw something weird with a monster or a ghost so he hunts because he can not because of Winchester DNA.

Spoiler

Hell I wouldn't be surprised if they did bring back Lisa and Ben in Wayward Sisters . Of course he's probably a mechanic in Sioux Falls who has some kind of classic car. Maybe even runs a salvage and repair  yard.  Oh my gods that's what they will do, won't they. Lisa gets killed by a demon or something and he  gets dragged into the hunting life and Jody is like huh kid reminds me of Dean. Then Patience somehow shows Ben his past and then he goes after Dean because ...reasons. oh they are so  not going to not do that at some point LOL. But they will never tell us whether or not that really is Dean's son.

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

She had to have known that Sam and Dean were vessels right? So she  must have known what that would mean for her son being a possible vessel himself because he has Winchester blood. Even if she didn't , the angels knew about Adam before Sam and Dean did which is why they defaulted to him. Since Dean was the chosen vessel wouldn't they have wanted his kin more than Adam who was already dead? Like wouldn't it have been more advantageous to the angels to use Ben as leverage to get Dean to say yes?  Rather than use all that angel power to resurrect a dead guy?Like to me, they didn't do that because the intention was Ben wasn't Dean's child or they would have made that a bigger plot point in s5.

I don't know if she knew about the vessel thing and that it was genetic.  We don't know what details she knew.  But, IMO, there was still no reason for her to lie about Ben's parentage after she let Dean move in with them and told him that she wanted a dad for Ben.

[gonzosgirrl]

Eh, Dean was still pretty messed up one year later, and Lisa seemed to know that. Since she had him in their lives anyway, there was nothing to gain by telling him. 

That Said, canon is canon (until they LOL) so I accept that he's not Ben's father.  It's one retcon I could believable accept though. 

I don't think the angels knew about Adam before Dean and Sam did. He was introduced as an already dead ghoul - there didnt seem to be any angel involvement until the Michael plotline was taken away from Dean in latter S5. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think the angels knew about Adam before Dean and Sam did. He was introduced as an already dead ghoul - there didnt seem to be any angel involvement until the Michael plotline was taken away from Dean in latter S5. 

Given how long they were planning these shenanigans, I find it unlikely they didn't know about Adam before he was killed by the ghoul. They didn't have to bother with him until they gave up on Dean which happened after Adam was killed.

IMO if they retcon Ben to being his kid that even further mucks with the events of s5. The angels were totally brutal, unrelenting, manipulative, and also following the Winchesters bloodline hence knowing about Adam. If Adam and Dean both said no, Michael still needed a Winchester vessel so Ben not being mentioned as a possibility after they reintroduce Lisa and Ben in 99 Problems tells me he was never intended to be considered as Dean's bio child. IMO, there are just too many reasons for him to not be Dean's kid than to be. JMHO

[gonzosgirrl]

I just don't think the Adam-as-substitute-vessel was even a gleam Kripke's eye when the character was introduced. Why kill him off then? I wasn't around, but I feel like I've read that Dean saying no and using Adam wasn't the originally intended storyline? But if they knew they were resurrecting Adam in 5x18, then 5x17 was already written. IMO Lisa and Ben were reintroduced to give Dean somewhere to go at the end of 5x22. If that would have indeed been the end of the series, there's an ending for his story. As it turned out, it was simple enough to have him walk away from them again. I don't think the angels not considering Ben as a vessel precludes him from being Dean's kid - because he was a kid. Given a choice between a grown man (Adam) and a ten-year old, I can see why he wouldn't be on their radar.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think the angels not considering Ben as a vessel precludes him from being Dean's kid - because he was a kid. Given a choice between a grown man (Adam) and a ten-year old, I can see why he wouldn't be on their radar.

 

It seems to me if you're a chosen Vessel from a special bloodline it shouldn't matter if you're a kid or an adult. Dean was supposedly the Chosen Vessel, special in some so wouldn't his descendents be more valuable as a vessel than Dean's half-brother?

Isn't it the power of the archangel that powers the vessel? Well except I guess for Sam who had to drink all that demon blood to contain him WTF or was that more power for Sam? That never made sense, like a chosen Vessel is a chosen Vessel you know? Claire had power as Castiel's vessel when she was like 11 or 12.  Baby Amara had power to move stuff and eat souls so I don't think the age of the vessel really matters. Lucifer's power ate through his adult Nicksuit since Nick wasn't the Chosen Vessel. Adam didn't have to do something extra to hold Michael so to me neither would Ben.

AFAIK , the archangel keeps the vessel safe essentially for it's own protection. Michael would have just continued to keep his vessel going until he could beat Lucifer in Sam. If he lost the vessel is dead anyway. And I would think possessing a kid would make Michael far more in control than possessing Adam or Dean who could fight back if they wanted. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Claire and Amara and kid-Lilith weren't fighting anyone (of significant power)though. I figured the Lucifer/Michael showdown was going to be a physical one as well as metaphysical. In any case, I'm just saying considering the hand-waving of major 'facts' the show has done to ret-con so many other things, making Ben Dean's kid would be simple enough.

Edited December 13, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In any case, I'm just saying considering the hand-waving of major 'facts' the show has done to ret-con so many other things, making Ben Dean's kid would be simple enough.

And that's where we disagree. I don't think it is that simple. It opens too many questions IMO for too many things that don't make a lot of sense.

It seems to me if she trusted him enough to let him stay, and even said it was the best year of her life, despite his drinking too much and whatever else was happening, wouldn't she trust him enough to say, "Hey this kid that you told me you would have been proud to have as your son, is in fact your son".  I can even make a case that it might have been good for Dean to have learned he had a son. Dean lost all of his kin. That might have helped him as much as gave him guilt. Maybe gave him more hope than he had during that year of misery. I dunno, just musing. 

[companionenvy]

I could imagine a competent writer creating a scenario where it would make sense for Ben to be revealed as Dean's bio-son. I cannot see the current writers being half as thoughtful as the people on this thread about the issues that would need to be considered, however, so I really hope it never happens.

FWIW, my alt-head canon as to how Ben could be Dean's son , if the show wanted to go there, is that an angel (possibly Cas, before one of Naomi's reprogrammings) did something to conceal the kid's bloodline precisely so he wouldn't be an option as a back-up vessel. In this scenario, Lisa herself would have believed, based on manipulated test results, that Ben had been fathered by another man. 

I don't think Ben would have been a stronger vessel than Adam, since my understanding was that Michael's vessels were the Winchester line, with Sam being excluded only because he was already destined for Lucifer. Correspondingly, Lucifer's vessels were Campbell descendants, with only Dean excluded because he was destined for Michael. So, Adam and Ben would be equally strong vessels on genetic grounds. I also don't think Ben being a child would make a difference in terms of angelic power, but it might have in terms of physical logistics. From what we've seen, battles between angels in vessels could be affected by something like a significant height difference. It is also possible that Michael would have found it humiliating to take a child vessel. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by companionenvy

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Eh, Dean was still pretty messed up one year later, and Lisa seemed to know that. Since she had him in their lives anyway, there was nothing to gain by telling him. 

Except for being honest.   Ben and Dean had a right to know if that were the case.  I've never seen Lisa as the scum of the earth, but if she kept this a secret, I'll have to re-evaluate my position on that.

[MysteryGuest]

Count me on the side of those who don't believe that Ben was Dean's son.  Lisa might not have told him that very first time he comes to see her at the birthday party, but certainly after he saved his life she would have come clean.  At least in my opinion.  And when they moved in together as a family, there was no reason not to tell him.  I think Dean was pretty upfront with her about what happened to him and the kind of life he lead, so I would think she'd want to clarify just what that might mean for Ben if he were really Dean's son.  Lisa seemed to have her head on her shoulders, so I don't think she'd be careless in that way.

[gonzosgirrl]

Yeah, but *if* he was his son and she decided not to tell him in S3 after seeing the kind of life they lead, then it would be a lot harder to tell him the truth later. He was a mess when he showed up on her doorstep, and I doubt that changed immediately after they closed the door behind them. So a couple months pass while he goes through the worst of it. She gets to a place where maybe she thinks he'll be okay, and he'll stick around - so then she has to tell him that she lied, not only to him but to her son. She's human - I wouldn't say she was scum because she didn't know how to do that, maybe had to work up to it. And before she could, Sam comes back and everything changes again. He already cares about Ben, so whether he's blood or not it wouldn't factor in to the lengths Dean would go to to protect him. Crowley used him against Dean anyway.

As far as the story goes, all they would have to do is have Lisa say she never had any paternity tests done at all - she just told Dean what she thought he wanted to hear in S3.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

As far as the story goes, all they would have to do is have Lisa say she never had any paternity tests done at all - she just told Dean what she thought he wanted to hear in S3.

But why would she say that after Dean told her he would be proud to call Ben his son? She could have told him then. Or better yet when he came to essentially say goodbye to her in 99 Problems. He even asked after Ben and told her he would make sure they were safe, so why not tell the guy that she thinks is gonna go die saving the world that he has a son?

[MysteryGuest]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But why would she say that after Dean told her he would be proud to call Ben his son? She could have told him then. Or better yet when he came to essentially say goodbye to her in 99 Problems. He even asked after Ben and told her he would make sure they were safe, so why not tell the guy that she thinks is gonna go die saving the world that he has a son?

Agreed.  Dean made it very clear that he would have been happy to have Ben be his real son, so there was no reason for Lisa to hide that from him.  And if she did it to protect Ben because of Dean's lifestyle, then why invite him into your home to live with you and your son?  

I wouldn't be stunned if they tried to retcon this down the road, because that seems to be their thing now, but I hope they don't.  They've already ruined one iconic character in Mary by giving her an entirely new backstory that never existed.  Not to mention Chuck.  They need to stop doing it.  If they decide they want Dean to have some child down the road, then any one of the multitude of women he's slept with over the years could show up on his doorstep any day.  Yes, I believe he's careful, but accidents happen.  That would be much easier for me to swallow than just deciding that Lisa's a liar for no good reason, and Ben is really his son.  

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Agreed.  Dean made it very clear that he would have been happy to have Ben be his real son, so there was no reason for Lisa to hide that from him.  And if she did it to protect Ben because of Dean's lifestyle, then why invite him into your home to live with you and your son?  

I wouldn't be stunned if they tried to retcon this down the road, because that seems to be their thing now, but I hope they don't.  They've already ruined one iconic character in Mary by giving her an entirely new backstory that never existed.  Not to mention Chuck.  They need to stop doing it.  If they decide they want Dean to have some child down the road, then any one of the multitude of women he's slept with over the years could show up on his doorstep any day.  Yes, I believe he's careful, but accidents happen.  That would be much easier for me to swallow than just deciding that Lisa's a liar for no good reason, and Ben is really his son.  

When Dean said he would be happy to be Ben's father, she'd just found out who they were and what they did (not to mention that monsters were real). It was clear they were going back on the road. In 99 Problems - telling him then would only have been another burden for him to bear. As for inviting him in - she obviously had feelings for him and welcomed him in, presumably he told her then that it was all over. Still, he was still a mess - the rest I already posted above. I'm not going to belabour the point any more - I've only been saying it wouldn't be wholly ridiculous that he is Ben's father.  Especially not in comparison to some of the other ret-conning the show has indulged in.

Edited December 14, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Pondlass1]

Ben would be a tall teenager now and could come back into Dean's world coz mom spilled the truth beans and he left home in a huff to find dad and be a hunter.  If he located Dean and said I'm the fruit of your loins... Well, it would utterly destroy Dean doncha think?

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Ben would be a tall teenager now and could come back into Dean's world coz mom spilled the truth beans and he left home in a huff to find dad and be a hunter.  If he located Dean and said I'm the fruit of your loins... Well, it would utterly destroy Dean doncha think?

It just occurs to me, since Dean had Cas erase their memories, then she wouldn't even remember Dean Winchester at all much less that he would be Ben's father.

[Pondlass1]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It just occurs to me, since Dean had Cas erase their memories, then she wouldn't even remember Dean Winchester at all much less that he would be Ben's father.

Ha Ha.  Good point! :-)  I'm not as savvy about this show as most here.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

Ha Ha.  Good point! :-)  I'm not as savvy about this show as most here.

It's not a matter of you not being savvy, it's more like I have thought too much about the Dean/Lisa/Ben thing and trying to make sense of it and why Sera would think Dean erasing their memories solves the Lisa problem. LOL

[Pondlass1]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have thought too much about

I really enjoy everyone's thoughts and ponderings.  It's very interesting visiting here.  I don't know how I forgot about the mind wipe because it upset me at the time.  Dean wasn't thinking straight and his crazy decision made them vulnerable. But I'm sure that's been debated many times.

[catrox14]

The funny thing after all the discussions about Ben and his status as Dean's bio kid, I was like WAIT the memory erasing!  At this point, a retcon would be some kind of soap opera thing where some character some how finds out that Ben is really Dean's kid and uses it that as leverage against Dean.

What about Chuck? He knows if Ben is Dean's kid or not, right? Wouldn't Chuck have wanted Dean to know that he had a son to give Dean extra motivation to save the world from dying? Or is Chuck like, nope, I'm not telling you because then you'll be distracted by it and can't fight my battles.

[gonzosgirrl]

I think the mind-wipe lends itself to ret-conning as much as anything they've ever done. Unless they lived in a vacuum for a year, a whole lot of other people knew about Dean and Lisa. The neighbours, her family, all the people each of them worked with, presumably some of Ben's friends and their families. Did Cas wipe all their minds as well? What if somebody was out of town, or out of the country - was this spell powerful enough to cover the planet? It was such a flimsy and dumb thing to do that undoing it wouldn't take much if that was their goal.

And yeah, seeing as how Chuck let Dean suffer in Hell, Purgatory and, you know, get murdered and become a demon, I don't see lying by omission about a possible kid being a problem for him.

 

ETA: O/T but this is at least the fourth or fifth time this week I've been the first post at the top of a new page. WTH?

Edited December 14, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think the mind-wipe lends itself to ret-conning as much as anything they've ever done. Unless they lived in a vacuum for a year, a whole lot of other people knew about Dean and Lisa. The neighbours, her family, all the people each of them worked with, presumably some of Ben's friends and their families. Did Cas wipe all their minds as well? What if somebody was out of town, or out of the country - was this spell powerful enough to cover the planet? It was such a flimsy and dumb thing to do that undoing it wouldn't take much if that was their goal.

I used to think the same thing and then I thought about it and it's really only the people that knew Dean and Lisa and Ben together who would be a factor IMO. I doubt that Lisa and Ben talked all that much about Dean to other people given the givens of his life. So that narrows the field. Back then Cas could teleport so he could have found everyone and erased Dean but not Lisa in moments. Remember when he said he looked everywhere for something and it was like seconds for Dean?

I think Dean and Lisa laid pretty low for a long time when Dean first got to her house. If he was drinking all the time he probably didn't go out much and spent a lot of time researching a way to save Sam. She moved from the house in s3 and those neighbors would think, she moved because weirdness and that the guy was one of the two guys that saved the kids, no different than any other hunt. No one to bother with IMO there. 

It's only the people that knew that Lisa was in a relationship with Dean that needed to have Dean erased from their memories, and that was maybe Lisa's sister. Who knows if her parents knew of him. Then Ben and maybe his schoolmates. But even at that, as soon as the djinn showed up and wrecked things they moved away. And then Dean was gone during much of the time in the 2nd house and they broke up. So maybe he didn't even know those neighbors. Dean was the live in boyfriend and they broke up and no one cares really.

As to who would know about Ben's paternity, if Lisa lied about the test,  she is really still the only person who would know if Dean was the actual father besides Chuck. And if that test never happened then there is no evidence at all that Dean is Ben's kid other than Lisa's word.

Which raises a question. Can she have gotten a paternity test that identifies Dean as the father without Dean's DNA? I really don't know how that stuff works TBH.

[Katy M]

I've always assumed Cas wiped everyone's memories that knew them. Obviously he had to do more than just wipe their memories, or they'd be wondering why Matt was dead on their floor when the got back home from the hospital.  So, he wiped memories and maybe to make life easier just replaced Dean in everyone's head with someone else with a different name, who just did the construction type jobs he had when he was with Lisa.  Otherwise they would be missing a whole year of their lives. 

50 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

As to who would know about Ben's paternity, if Lisa lied about the test,  she is really still the only person who would know if Dean was the actual father besides Chuck. And if that test never happened then there is no evidence at all that Dean is Ben's kid other than Lisa's word.

Which raises a question. Can she have gotten a paternity test that identifies Dean as the father without Dean's DNA? I really don't know how that stuff works TBH.

I was assuming, since she had a test done (yes she called it blood instead of DNA, but who cares) that she had the actual father tested.  Otherwise, how does a yoga instructor afford a nice house in a gated community and raise her son?  OK, I'm not sure how a biker with no forwarding address helps that much with that either.

But, yes, if she was just going to rule out Dean as the father she would have to have his DNA.  Or, at the very least (since she said blood test), know what his blood type is and see if along with hers, Ben's blood type is possible.  I'm not going to get into Dean's blood type, because I don't want to open up the dog tags/Soul Survivor debate again.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I used to think the same thing and then I thought about it and it's really only the people that knew Dean and Lisa and Ben together who would be a factor IMO. I doubt that Lisa and Ben talked all that much about Dean to other people given the givens of his life. So that narrows the field. Back then Cas could teleport so he could have found everyone and erased Dean but not Lisa in moments. Remember when he said he looked everywhere for something and it was like seconds for Dean?

I think Dean and Lisa laid pretty low for a long time when Dean first got to her house. If he was drinking all the time he probably didn't go out much and spent a lot of time researching a way to save Sam. She moved from the house in s3 and those neighbors would think, she moved because weirdness and that the guy was one of the two guys that saved the kids, no different than any other hunt. No one to bother with IMO there. 

It's only the people that knew that Lisa was in a relationship with Dean that needed to have Dean erased from their memories, and that was maybe Lisa's sister. Who knows if her parents knew of him. Then Ben and maybe his schoolmates. But even at that, as soon as the djinn showed up and wrecked things they moved away. And then Dean was gone during much of the time in the 2nd house and they broke up. So maybe he didn't even know those neighbors. Dean was the live in boyfriend and they broke up and no one cares really.

As to who would know about Ben's paternity, if Lisa lied about the test,  she is really still the only person who would know if Dean was the actual father besides Chuck. And if that test never happened then there is no evidence at all that Dean is Ben's kid other than Lisa's word.

Which raises a question. Can she have gotten a paternity test that identifies Dean as the father without Dean's DNA? I really don't know how that stuff works TBH.

I would think someone at Dean's work might wonder why he never showed up again and maybe called the house? Or the mailman? There are a lot of bases to cover. And yeah, Lisa had someone living with her/helping with bills, etc for a year -and she has no one now - did Cas revive dead-guy and insert him into the memories? It's all so convoluted that undoing it would be the least messed up thing about it, lol.

Edited December 14, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would think someone at Dean's work might wonder why he never showed up again and maybe called the house? Or the mailman? There are a lot of bases to cover. And yeah, Lisa had someone living with her/helping with bills, etc for a year -and she has no one now - did Cas revive dead-guy and insert him into the memories? It's all so convoluted that undoing it would be the least messed up thing about it, lol.

If it was another job besides construction I would agree with you. Construction uses a lot of day laborers who they pay for a day's work so if a worker never shows up again, it's not that big of a deal. I think that's why Dean opted for construction. He can go anywhere and get work easily, especially if all he's doing is hanging drywall or what have you. I suspect Dean was making sure he was getting paid in cash so he didn't have to worry being tracked. 

In the 2nd house in s6 Dean didn't seem to be working regularly so Dean he had no co workers to worry about at that point really.

[Katy M]

58 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would think someone at Dean's work might wonder why he never showed up again and maybe called the house? Or the mailman? There are a lot of bases to cover. And yeah, Lisa had someone living with her/helping with bills, etc for a year -and she has no one now - did Cas revive dead-guy and insert him into the memories? It's all so convoluted that undoing it would be the least messed up thing about it, lol.

Did they have a landline?  If Dean were expected in and didn't show, his boss very well may have called his cell phone and Dean would have just told him he wasn't coming back.  Lisa didn't have anyone helping with the bills (unless Ben's father was) before and she lived in a gated community which are usually more expensive.  So, they'll probably be OK as far as that goes.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Did they have a landline?  If Dean were expected in and didn't show, his boss very well may have called his cell phone and Dean would have just told him he wasn't coming back.  Lisa didn't have anyone helping with the bills (unless Ben's father was) before and she lived in a gated community which are usually more expensive.  So, they'll probably be OK as far as that goes.

LOL! Okay, I surrender. You guys win. It's not possible, no way, no how.

Edited December 14, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think the mind-wipe lends itself to ret-conning as much as anything they've ever done. Unless they lived in a vacuum for a year, a whole lot of other people knew about Dean and Lisa. The neighbours, her family, all the people each of them worked with, presumably some of Ben's friends and their families. Did Cas wipe all their minds as well? What if somebody was out of town, or out of the country - was this spell powerful enough to cover the planet? It was such a flimsy and dumb thing to do that undoing it wouldn't take much if that was their goal.

Yeah, don't even get me started on the stupidity of this, not to mention how it made everything Dean was to Lisa and Ben pointless...but yeah, it also means it would be very easy to retcon too. I mean, not just the people who Dean interacted with--such as Lisa's family and friends, especially that sister whose baby Dean said he watched--but there were pictures of all three of them together and Dean told Ben he left a shotgun in Lisa's closet, not to mention the golf clubs and stuff and I'm guessing Dean's truck was still sitting in Lisa's garage. So, did Cass get rid of all that stuff too? 

And then there's also Lisa's boyfriend who Crowley killed... .  Oh, and the better part of a year's worth of memories that are blank. I don't know, just way too many things that weren't thought about or considered on this front, but whatcha gonna do, right?

[companionenvy]

I seem to be using a lot of Buffy-verse analogies today, but I've fanwanked that Cas did more than a mindwipe, and was actually able to more or less alter reality so that everyone (except, I guess, Sam and Dean) remembered what they had to remember for the mindwipe to make sense.

To explain to people who didn't watch Buffy and Angel (and don't care about spoilers): On the first episode of Season 5 of Buffy, we meet Buffy's little sister Dawn -- even though it has been previously established that Buffy is an only child. All of the characters, including Buffy and her mother, believe that Dawn was there all along, and have memories of her. Dawn herself, who is about 13 when she appears, has an ordinary set of childhood memories. It turns out that Dawn was originally a transdimensional "key" (don't ask). Some supernatural beings wanted her protected, so they transformed her into super-powered Buffy's sister, altering memories accordingly, so that Buffy would have reason to protect the "key." Ultimately, Dawn is de-keyified, and while the people closest to her know the truth about her origins, they continue "remembering" the constructed past.

In Angel, Angel has a son, Connor, who becomes a killer after some hellishly traumatic experiences -- including a childhood spent in literal hell. A powerful being gives Angel the option to give Connor a fresh start, which involves wiping everyone's memories, and giving Connor a completely new identity, complete with memories of being raised in a loving family -- a loving family that he still lives with, and who remember raising him.

[catrox14]

47 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

LOL! Okay, I surrender. You guys win. It's not possible, no way, no how.

LOL what? No, that's not what we are saying LOL. No need to surrender.

I love that we are all far more creative and can each find ways to make it work, make it not work, and either way it still makes more sense than IMO anything around the domestic!Dean arc LOL

[DittyDotDot]

From the I Believe The Children Are Our Future thread...

15 minutes ago, bethy said:

How fun would it be if Jesse came back? He was a good little actor. But they seem to have completely forgotten about his existence.

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or did they? ;)

3 minutes ago, bethy said:

You have more confidence in TPTB than I do at this point? :)

No, it's just that I think what they're doing with Jack is a more in-depth Antichrist-like storyline. So, while I don't expect to ever see Jessie again, I don't think they've actually forgotten about him.

[bethy]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

From the I Believe The Children Are Our Future thread...

No, it's just that I think what they're doing with Jack is a more in-depth Antichrist-like storyline. So, while I don't expect to ever see Jessie again, I don't think they've actually forgotten about him.

Ah. I see. And I get what you’re saying. I still would love to know that specific character’s story, anti-Christ story aside.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

From the I Believe The Children Are Our Future thread...

No, it's just that I think what they're doing with Jack is a more in-depth Antichrist-like storyline. So, while I don't expect to ever see Jessie again, I don't think they've actually forgotten about him.

I don't think they forgot about him but they have repackaged  him  just to give Dean and Sam some kind of surrogate son and some weird attempt  to humanize Lucifer. I thought it would be cas story line but he's spent less time with Cas than anyone else. it's the weirdest thing that they totally ignore Jesse's existence especially TFW.

[Diane]

I always kind of assumed that Lisa had family money.  That is how she was able to afford being a single mother and the house she was in.

[ParadoxLost]

I was watching season 1 over the last couple days. I just got to the finale and I totally lost it.  Turns out, after a dozen years, that the last fifteen minutes of Devil's Trap now has a secondary purpose.  Its a prophetic warning about what JDM's character will someday do to the Walking Dead.

Dean:  Listen, you mind just getting this over with, huh? Cause I really can't stand the monologueing.

[catrox14]

12 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Dean:  Listen, you mind just getting this over with, huh? Cause I really can't stand the monologueing.

OH. MY. GODS.

I AM DYING This is freaking hilarious. 

Do you think Gimple watched that episode and was like YES! We have our Negan!!!   Get me JDM's agent ASAP!"

Please tell me you made this comment in TWD forum as well. That's just fantastic! LOLOLOL

Also, now I really need Dean to show up on TWD say something like "You really remind me of a monster I knew back in the day" before he kills Negan. LOL

[ParadoxLost]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

OH. MY. GODS.

I AM DYING This is freaking hilarious. 

Do you think Gimple watched that episode and was like YES! We have our Negan!!!   Get me JDM's agent ASAP!"

I think maybe Gimple did because five minutes after Dean complained about the monologueing, John was on the ground shot in the leg and  begging Sam to shoot him and end the yellow eyed demon for good.  Sam wouldn't do it.

[catrox14]

Just now, ParadoxLost said:

I think maybe Gimple did because five minutes after Dean complained about the monologueing, John was on the ground shot in the leg and  begging Sam to shoot him and end the yellow eyed demon for good.  Sam wouldn't do it.

LOOOLOLOL That's hilarious and true and OMG LOL