All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[rue721]

I don't think the conversation in the Purge is even remotely in Sam's mind anymore.  He told Dean "He lied" about that conversation when Dean was dying in 9.23. So was he lying when he said that in the Purge or was he lying when he said "I lied."

 

I don't think Sam purposefully *lied* at any point, I think that his perspective changed. I think it changed over the course of the rest of S9 when he saw Dean fall apart, and I think it changed when he was facing the prospect of Dean dying in his arms *right then.* But he wasn't going to spend time sussing the complexities of all that out with Dean as Dean was bleeding through the stab wounds in his heart -- so Sam just told Dean as quickly and simply as he could that what he said before wasn't true, and said he lied.

 

I think that Dean seemed devastated by Sam saying before that he wouldn't have done what Dean did (w/r/t Gadreel). Not just because of how he reacted to it right after, but in how he *kept* bringing it up -- even when he was about to die, he brought it up. It was clearly eating at him, and I think what finally put it to bed was Sam "curing" him of being a demon.

 

I think that Sam went for the throat in that argument because he was very frustrated and angry, and nothing seemed to be getting through to Dean. I think Sam was trying (not necessarily consciously, though) to escalate that fight into a major blowout -- because for Sam, imo, a blowout is how you either clear the air or mark a real change. For Sam, big fights and times when everyone spills his guts are actually constructive, imo.

 

The problem is that Dean apparently *hates* those big confrontations, so when Sam comes at him like that, he reacts like it's a Big Deal, and tries to shut the argument down as hard as he can -- either by clamming up and snarling at Sam to clam up, too, or by giving Sam some kind of (rhetorical, usually) knockout punch to end things early.

 

Sam could have killed demon!Dean but he couldn't bring himself to do it. Was that because he couldn't live without Dean? Was that because he thought Dean wanted to be human again, even though demon!Dean said he liked the disease?  Was he wrong to de-demon!Dean against his will? 

 

Dean made it very clear, imo, that he did *not* want to be a demon (he wanted to die after Metatron stabbed him specifically because he didn't like what he was becoming). So regardless of anything else, I think Sam had a moral imperative not to just leave Dean as a demon.

 

Also, Dean doesn't have the same hangup about agency that Sam does. He made it clear how hurt he felt when Sam said he wouldn't do whatever it took to save him, even if it meant disregarding his wishes. So I think that Sam was actually doing what Dean wanted when he told him that he'd do whatever it took to save him, regardless of whether Dean wanted saving at that moment. They're different people and they need/want different things from each other.

 

ETA:

 

Since I'm listening to corny nu metal today apparently, here's a song for Sam's state of mind during The Purge :P

Apocalyptica's "Don't Care"

Edited February 9, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

"Dean made it very clear, imo, that he did *not* want to be a demon (he wanted to die after Metatron stabbed him specifically because he didn't like what he was becoming). So regardless of anything else, I think Sam had a moral imperative not to just leave Dean as a demon."

Neither Sam nor Dean had any idea that Dean was being turned into a demon when Dean died. Dean only knew the Mark was doing something bad to him. Dean said 'no its better this way because the Mark is making me into something I don't wanna be' which was Dean telling Sam don't save me, it's better if I'm dead.'

Sam ignored that plea and said don't worry about that we'll figure it out and proceeded to try to save Dean's life even though Dean himself believed something terrible was happening to him, and he told Sam it was better if he died.

Even after Dean died Sam was not willing to let Dean stay dead. He summoned Crowley to make deal. So to me Sam's personal moral imperative was save Dean's life even when Dean told him to let him die.

Sam didn't know that Dean had become a demon until he had already been torturing demons and using humans to draw out a crossroads demon. So again to me Sam's imperative was Dean had to be alive no matter what.

IMO Sam still didn't have the stomach to kill Dean if the cure had failed.

I really don't think Sam ever really had the moral high ground in the Purge to chastise Dean especially when we think about the lengths Sam went to avenge Dean in mystery spot and trying to make a deal to get Dean out of hell.

[DittyDotDot]

I definitely don't think anyone had the moral high ground in The Purge. To me, they both had valid places they were coming from and both were acting like children instead of dealing with the real issue at hand.

 

I think it's a little murky when you try to compare the Gadreel possession to curing Demon Dean. Dean didn't need to put an angel in Sam, he could've let him die and it wouldn't have affected the world at large, but Dean would be without his brother. I don't think Sam really had any choice but to cure Dean. He couldn't just leave Dean out there to cause more pain and suffering and it wasn't in Sam to kill him so the only real option was to cure him, IMO. I think it's more akin to Soulless Sam--Dean couldn't leave Sam without his soul knowing what he was capable of and Dean was obviously not going to kill him, so he did the only other thing he could; not just for Sam, but the safety of others.

 

Yes, Sam was trying to find a way to save Dean when Dean told him he didn't want to be saved, but since that never came to fruition, I can't really hold the things he might've possibly done against him. If Sam had actually had a demon possess Dean unwittingly in order to save him and then lied to him for months about it, I'd have had a few things to say about that, though. Personally, I've never had an issue with them trying to save each other within reason, but I do get annoyed with the lying and subterfuge; that's just disrespectful, IMO.

 

I would've liked to have seen a better through line with both the boys purges. I wanted Sam to admit to Dean that it wasn't so easy to live by your ideals when faced with a real-world situation and I wanted Dean to admit that he had no right to trick Sam into accepting and Gadreel. I mean, they kinda addressed it in Paper Moon, but it still didn't feel like it got to the heart of the matter, IMO. It's funny to me how heavy-handed they write their parallels and plots with all the diagrams and the arrows and the circling, but the stuff that I think is important, they think doesn't deserve even a little sketch. I don't know.

[Julia]

I think it's a little murky when you try to compare the Gadreel possession to curing Demon Dean. Dean didn't need to put an angel in Sam, he could've let him die and it wouldn't have affected the world at large, but Dean would be without his brother. I don't think Sam really had any choice but to cure Dean. He couldn't just leave Dean out there to cause more pain and suffering and it wasn't in Sam to kill him so the only real option was to cure him, IMO.

I'm perplexed at what the distinction is between those two scenarios.

[Wynne88]

Sam ignored that plea and said don't worry about that we'll figure it out and proceeded to try to save Dean's life even though Dean himself believed something terrible was happening to him, and he told Sam it was better if he died.

 

What exactly did he do to try and keep Dean from dying?  I remember him helping him up and said they'd figure out something, but other than putting pressure on the wound, I don't remember him doing anything more.

 

Even after Dean died Sam was not willing to let Dean stay dead. He summoned Crowley to make deal.

 

 

I didn't get the feeling Sam was planning to make a deal with Crowley when he went down to the dungeon.  To me it sounded like he was wanting to take him apart because he blamed him for Dean's whole situation.  I do agree that he was going to make Crowley bring him back though.

 

After Dean's body disappeared, there were only a few options - demon, zombie . . .  none of which could really be ignored  (even if the writers didn't have to have Sam go find him after failing to care so spectacularly in season 8).

[DittyDotDot]

I'm perplexed at what the distinction is between those two scenarios.

 

I'm sorry...you mean the distinction between curing Demon Dean and saving Sam via angel. I thought I was clear, sorry. One scenario had repercussions for the world at large and the other didn't. Sam dying only hurt Dean. Whereas, leaving Demon Dean out there would mean Demon Dean could hurt other people. Sam's a hunter and couldn't just shrug his shoulders and walk away because Demon Dean wanted to stay a demon, whether he was his brother or not--that would be irresponsible of any hunter, IMO--he either had to kill Dean or cure him.

 

That's why I say it's more akin to the Soulless Sam situation. Dean didn't force Sam's soul back in him only because he wanted to save Sam, but because Soulless Sam was a menace and he couldn't just leave him out there without a soul to hurt other folks. Of course Dean isn't gonna kill his brother, especially if there's another option on the table.

 

I guess I look at it as Demon Dean (and Soulless Sam) needed to be dead or gone, but Sam didn't need to be alive. I'm not saying the show should kill Sam or anything crazy like that, just that I think one situation was a choice and the other wasn't really a choice at all.

 

 

ETA: Oh wait, are you asking why Sam shouldn't have just killed Demon Dean instead of curing him? I'd say it's the difference of allowing your brother to choose to die even though there was another option or actively trying to kill your brother when there was another option. If Dean (not Demon Dean) had chose to die rather than be cured, I think Sam should've honored that request. But Dean wasn't really available to be asked--Sam was, IMO.

Edited February 10, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Sam could have just sat there comforting his brother as his brother died without trying to get him out of there in order to save his life. But Sam said "Just hold on, buddy. We'll get you some help".

When it was too late he summoned Crowley saying, "Damn it, Crowley. You got him into this and you will get him out of this, or so help me God".

To me that is intent on Sam's part to save Dean's life despite Dean's wishes to die rather than become become something he didn't want to become and that he was willing to use Crowley to resurrect Dean.

 

To me, Sam selfishly couldn't live with Dean dead, anymore than Dean could live with Sam dead in 9.1.

Edited February 10, 2015 by catrox14

[supposebly]

I would argue that Dean had definite proof that SoulessSam was a murdering menace while so far, Dean had only killed Abaddon and attacked Gadreel. There was still hope that Dean wasn't going to become well, what he eventually became.

 

 

Just hold on, buddy. we'll get you some help".

These are pretty much the comforting words someone would say, to oneself and the dying. I believe Dean said something similar to dying Sam at the end of season 2. I don't think they were meant as intent. Not at that moment.

 

The scene where Sam sits and empties a whole glass before he goes to summon Crowley gave me the impression that he was thinking long and hard about whether and/or how he would try to bring Dean back. I think getting Crowley was supposed to get him Dean back and solve the mark issue as well. Not terribly thought-through but then, it never is, isn't it?

Edited February 10, 2015 by supposebly

[DittyDotDot]

To me that is intent on Sam's part to save Dean's life despite Dean's wishes to die rather than become become something he didn't want to become and that he was willing to use Crowley to resurrect Dean.

 

The problem is, intent and actually doing are two different things. Of course Sam wanted Dean alive, but would've he went to the extreme that Dean did? I don't know. Probably. But, I can't call him out on something he didn't actually do.

 

Again, I'm not saying Dean was wrong in trying to save Sam, not at all. I think Dean was faced with an almost impossible decision and did the best he could at the time. Right or wrong, he made a choice and has to live with the fallout of that decision. I don't really hold any of it against Dean; I think he was trying to do right by his brother, even if he did kinda do it wrong in the end.

[catrox14]

 

 

These are pretty much the comforting words someone would say, to oneself and the dying. I believe Dean said something similar to dying Sam at the end of season 2. I don't think they were meant as intent. Not at that moment.

 

Sam had no idea that the Mark was going to resurrect Dean so what would have been the point of Sam summoning Crowley other than to resurrect Dean? 

 

I think Jared's acting conveyed that Sam was desperately trying to save Dean. He drug him out of there, kept telling him to hold on and when Dean said' What happened to you being okay with this (meaning Dean dying), Sam said, "I lied".  When Dean finally said " Wait, I have to say something' and said "I'm proud of us"....Sam fell apart and was screaming at Dean to wake up whilst holding his face in his hands. I think Sam made the decision when he had the drink to use Crowley to bring Dean back...(and yes probably help him get rid of the Mark) as a last resort but I think from the moment Sam saw Dean stabbed and bleeding out, he was intending to save his life.  MV as always.

 

 

 

[supposebly]

Hm, to me he played it almost half accepting. No screaming.

 

That's why I think he needed the scene to make up his mind to get Crowley to help him get Dean back. I'm not debating that he did. I'm debating that he had that intention when Dean died right then and there.

 

I guess we'll have to disagree then. :)

[catrox14]

He shouted over and over again "Dean! Dean!! Dean!!!" in an escalating voice of desperation as he realized Dean was dying.  So yes, we'll have to agree to disagree there on when Sam decided to save Dean's life.

[Julia]

I'm sorry...you mean the distinction between curing Demon Dean and saving Sam via angel. I thought I was clear, sorry.

No, that's not what I mean. What I mean is that you've posited that Dean had a hard option he refused to choose because he found it emotionally unacceptable, and Sam had a hard option he refused take because it "wasn't in him." You appear to see a clear moral distinction between the two situations. I'm puzzled about why.

[rue721]

What I think would have been contrary to Dean's wishes would have been to leave him a demon. After he got stabbed in the heart, what I thought Dean was saying was that he'd rather die than become what he was becoming. He seemed to me like he was trying to make the best of a bad situation rather than expressing a suicide wish. YMMV.

 

Sam seemed to me to focus in on making Dean assured of not "becoming" that thing, and whether Dean was technically alive or dead seemed to me to be lower on Sam's priority list (not that he didn't care, but imo it wasn't the problem he was trying to solve first). If Sam had been focused specifically on bringing Dean back to life, then imo he wouldn't have said that it was Crowley who got Dean into that mess or focused in on Crowley when Dean got stabbed, since it was Metatron who had literally killed Dean. I think that Sam zeroed in on Crowley and blamed him for what was happening/had happened to Dean, because he was trying to get Dean out of the MoC mess entirely.

 

I don't think the resurrection issue even ended up getting addressed after all, since Sam cured Dean even when being a demon might have been the only thing keeping him physically "alive" at that point, but Dean still didn't die and the resurrection issue became moot. (Though I'm still confused about all that -- I guess that was because of that healing power he apparently got when he became a demon?).

 

If Sam hadn't been able to cure Dean, then I think the issue of whether to comply with Dean's dying wishes and kill him rather than let him become that "thing" or to not comply and instead keep him alive at all costs (even as a demon) would have come up. It didn't get to that point, though (imo) because Sam *was* able to cure him.

 

I think it's possible that that issue might come up later in the season, though. Maybe Dean will become something terrible again, but it'll be incurable this time?

 

If that were to happen, I'm not sure whether or not Sam would ultimately be able to kill Dean. Sam wasn't able to kill John when he was possessed, so I would guess no. He might do it out of respect for Dean, though. I think it could go either way.

 

I would've liked to have seen a better through line with both the boys purges. I wanted Sam to admit to Dean that it wasn't so easy to live by your ideals when faced with a real-world situation and I wanted Dean to admit that he had no right to trick Sam into accepting and Gadreel.

 

Something that undermined the situation for me was that Dean actually was living by his ideals when he saved Sam at all costs, and Sam did have a say in the possession as far as he did give head!Dean the OK to save him without knowing what Dean's plan was -- and neither of them ever admitted to or seemed to even have any regrets about those choices? You'd think they'd each have had an internal conflict stemming from those choices, but nope. The show didn't address that at all imo, as though they didn't even have internal conflicts! They each were angry at each others' choices and wanted them to change them, but they didn't do much to sort out their own.

 

Dean didn't really seem to be torn about whether or not he should have saved Sam, even after Sam flipped out at him. And Sam didn't seem to worry at all about his ability to just follow his brother without question, like when Sam said yes to that not-explained plan to save his life, just because it was Dean asking.

 

Without any internal conflicts going on, and therefore no reason to actually change their minds (or you know, grow as characters), what were they going to do, aside from some variation on agreeing to disagree (which imo is what they did)? Which was just bound to be underwhelming, I think.

[DittyDotDot]

Julia, on 09 Feb 2015 - 8:48 PM, said:Julia, on 09 Feb 2015 - 8:48 PM, said:Julia, on 09 Feb 2015 - 8:48 PM, said:Julia, on 09 Feb 2015 - 8:48 PM, said:

No, that's not what I mean. What I mean is that you've posited that Dean had a hard option he refused to choose because he found it emotionally unacceptable, and Sam had a hard option he refused take because it "wasn't in him." You appear to see a clear moral distinction between the two situations. I'm puzzled about why.

 

I'm not sure it's a moral distinction, I just don't see the hard choices to be made as the same choices. One is letting your brother die, through no fault of your own, or tricking him to live in a manner that's known to be unacceptable to your brother. The other was actively killing your brother rather than attempting to help him.

 

Look at it this way: your sibling is dying and a doctor says he might be able to cure your sibling, but the procedure requires something that is just too hideous for your sibling to even consider. Should you trick your sibling into to doing the procedure anyway knowing they wouldn't want to live that way simply because you can't let go or do you respect your sibling's decision an let him/her choose to refuse medical attention?

 

Or, say your sibling has a debilitating disease where they've expressed their desire to die if they ever get to a certain state which they are clearly at. The time has come to do the deed and a doctor comes along and says he might be able to cure your sibling, but maybe not all the way and it maybe won't be permanent so you might end up back in the same place at some point in the future. Now your sibling isn't able to communicate their wishes anymore and you have to make the decision. Should you go ahead and stick that pillow over your sibling's face because they said they wanted to die at this stage or should you give them chance to live in a different state even if it may not be permanent?

 

I'm just not sure the two choices are the same choices--albeit they both are hard choices. I'm not making a moral judgment on what it right or wrong, but looking at the two situations as not equivalent.

Edited February 10, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Julia]

Ah. But, absent your moral distinction, each situation has aspects of both of your hypotheticals.

Mileage varies.

[catrox14]

 

What I think would have been contrary to Dean's wishes would have been to leave him a demon. After he got stabbed in the heart, what I thought Dean was saying was that he'd rather die than become what he was becoming. He seemed to me like he was trying to make the best of a bad situation rather than expressing a suicide wish. YMMV.

 

 

 

I'm talking about MoC!Dean 1.0 pre-death. MO Sam couldn't have been trying to save Dean to prevent him from becoming a demon because Sam didn't know that was going to happen.

 

I wasn't saying it was a suicide wish from Dean. I thought Dean was expecting that he would die in battle with Marvatron and he was okay with that since the Mark was making Dean sick and was going to kill him if Dean didn't kill and Dean would have preferred death to what he was becoming which was a killer fueled by bloodlust.  Yes Dean was terrified of becoming a demon in s3 but again that was not something that was even a thought during the entire MoC SL in s9 on the parts of either Sam or Dean nor was really even hinted at that I can recall.

 

To me, each brother basically disregarded ( out of love/codependency) the other brother's wishes/desires/subconscious/resigned to their fates/possibly faulty decision making because when push came to shove they can't live with the other one really most sincerely dead. 

[DittyDotDot]

Ah. But, absent your moral distinction, each situation has aspects of both of your hypotheticals.

Mileage varies.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply there wasn't some overlap; both situations do have one party trying to do their best for the other party. So, while maybe not oranges to oranges, IMO, could be oranges to tangerines? ;)

[rue721]

To me, each brother basically disregarded ( out of love/codependency) the other brother's wishes/desires/subconscious/resigned to their fates/possibly faulty decision making because when push came to shove they can't live with the other one really most sincerely dead. 

 

I think that Dean definitely did that, and even straight up admitted it to Sam ("if there's no you there's no me"?! didn't he say something completely off-the-wall like that?).

 

I think it's a possibility that Sam will, too, but as of right now, I don't think Sam has disregarded any of Dean's wishes. They didn't know that Dean would become a demon specifically, but Dean clearly felt that he was becoming *something* that he'd rather die than become fully. Out of two bad choices -- become something terrible or die, Dean chose to die. Sam wanted to get rid of the need to choose altogether, though, by making it so Dean wouldn't become something terrible even if he lived (by going to Crowley). Imo that's why Sam said that Crowley had gotten Dean into that mess (even though Crowley hadn't killed him) and he was going to get him out.

 

I don't think it's that Sam overrode Dean's choice, but rather that he tried to make the choice unnecessary. If/when Dean again becomes something that he'd rather die than be, and this time *can't* be cured, *then* imo Sam will face the choice about whether to override Dean's wishes or not.

 

I think a couple complicating factors also come into play when it comes to Sam's choice of whether to comply with Dean's wishes (that don't come into play when it's vice versa): 

1.  What Dean says and what Dean means are often not the same thing. Just because Dean gives something lipservice doesn't mean he thinks it's the truth or expects Sam to think it's the truth.

2. Dean has sworn about a million times over, and backed it up with his own actions, that he won't ever give up on Sam. Likewise, he's also made it infinitely clear, imo, that he does *not* want Sam to ever give up on him. He even created that backup plan with Cas because he figures that Sam won't give up on him (since he's still coasting on the afterglow of Sam curing him imo).

 

So I don't think that if Sam goes by the letter of Dean's supposed wishes or takes what Dean's saying at face value, he's necessarily going to be complying with what Dean actually wants or expects from him. I think he's going to have to base his decisions on his overall knowledge of his brother as a person as well as what Dean says at any given time.

 

What I actually wish Sam would bring up is that Dean is giving him the same "save or kill" choice with regard to himself as John gave to Dean with regard to Sam -- and that choice fucked Dean's head up really badly imo.

 

UGH I know I'm always the one being like, "but doesn't this remind you guys of John?" and I'm sorry to be tiresome! But seriously, in S9, so much of what was the worst about Dean reminded me specifically of John -- the refusal to communicate, the bluster, the theatrical pouting, forcing others to tease out his motives or even what he's up to, and obviously giving Sam choices like this, leaning on Sam while still pretending to be in charge...Idk, obviously we didn't see a lot of John, so it's hard to tell, but I do feel like Dean is becoming his father. It's kind of weird because Sam always had more of John's personality, and I don't think that Dean's personality has become more like John's per se, but imo Dean's definitely acting quite a bit like him, and is certainly acting much more like him than Sam is. To be honest, I have *no* idea how OK Dean would be with becoming more like John though, anyway.

[DittyDotDot]

UGH I know I'm always the one being like, "but doesn't this remind you guys of John?" and I'm sorry to be tiresome! But seriously, in S9, so much of what was the worst about Dean reminded me specifically of John -- the refusal to communicate, the bluster, the theatrical pouting, forcing others to tease out his motives or even what he's up to, and obviously giving Sam choices like this, leaning on Sam while still pretending to be in charge...Idk, obviously we didn't see a lot of John, so it's hard to tell, but I do feel like Dean is becoming his father. It's kind of weird because Sam always had more of John's personality, and I don't think that Dean's personality has become more like John's per se, but imo Dean's definitely acting quite a bit like him, and is certainly acting much more like him than Sam is. To be honest, I have *no* idea how OK Dean would be with becoming more like John though, anyway.

 

Yes, Dean was mirroring John in many ways, but I'd say that was mostly after taking on the Mark. His attitude of it's my way or the highway; lack of communication and holding back on information; deciding when things were only his fight and such. I don't see it so much this season, Dean seems to be more aware of what's going on and communicating better with Sam about it. Thinking about it more, I think Sam was most like John during S4, also, although, Sam and John have always seemed more alike to me than John and Dean--the obsessiveness for one.

 

Anyway, I think Dean would be both flattered and horrified he was becoming more like John. Dean still idolizes John as a hunter and thinks of him as a hero, but Dean also is aware John wasn't always the best person. So, I think Dean would be proud for people to say he was like John the hunter; but probably wouldn't be too keen on them to saying he was like John the man. Now all I can think of is Bobby telling Dean not to be his father because he Dean is a better man than John.

 

No, that's not what I mean. What I mean is that you've posited that Dean had a hard option he refused to choose because he found it emotionally unacceptable, and Sam had a hard option he refused take because it "wasn't in him." You appear to see a clear moral distinction between the two situations. I'm puzzled about why.

 

Sorry, I've now had some sleep and I'm going to try and articulate this better. I'm still not sure it's a morale distinction, but maybe it is.

 

I do think Sam overrode Dean's last-stated wishes, but those wishes were stated about a set of circumstances that changed and now there was a whole different set of options to consider. So Sam is faced with the decision of killing his brother (which Sam didn't want) or doing something he knew Dean would want by a means that Sam also knew would be acceptable to Dean. I think Sam did what Dean would've wanted (not to be a demon) given the changing circumstances, plus it also happened to line up with what Sam wanted too (his brother back). So, in my  mind, there's really no choice here.

 

When Dean overrode Sam's last-stated wishes, the changing circumstances meant Dean had to choose between letting his brother die or doing something he knew Sam wouldn't want (be possessed by an angel) in order to make something he thought Sam wanted (to live) happen. That's a an actual choice, IMO. Then add on what Dean wanted and the choice becomes almost impossible, IMO.

[Julia]

I do think Sam overrode Dean's last-stated wishes, but those wishes were stated about a set of circumstances that changed and now there was a whole different set of options to consider. So Sam is faced with the decision of killing his brother (which Sam didn't want) or doing something he knew Dean would want by a means that Sam also knew would be acceptable to Dean. I think Sam did what Dean would've wanted (not to be a demon) given the changing circumstances, plus it also happened to line up with what Sam wanted too (his brother back). So, in my  mind, there's really no choice here.

 

When Dean overrode Sam's last-stated wishes, the changing circumstances meant Dean had to choose between letting his brother die or doing something he knew Sam wouldn't want (be possessed by an angel) in order to make something he thought Sam wanted (to live) happen. That's a an actual choice, IMO. Then add on what Dean wanted and the choice becomes almost impossible, IMO.

 

Bluntly, I think no means no or it doesn't. Otherwise what you have is someone's selective perception that their own preferred course is what the person double-super-secret _would_ have wanted despite the person's actual expressed wishes or lack of consent. I don't see that the two situations can really be distinguished except by what our subjective perception is of the rightness of each decision, which is where we fall down a rabbit hole or agree that mileage varies :)

[DittyDotDot]

Bluntly, I think no means no or it doesn't. Otherwise what you have is someone's selective perception that their own preferred course is what the person double-super-secret _would_ have wanted despite the person's actual expressed wishes or lack of consent. I don't see that the two situations can really be distinguished except by what our subjective perception is of the rightness of each decision, which is where we fall down a rabbit hole or agree that mileage varies :)

 

Like I said, maybe it is a moral distinction. Does no mean no if the person saying no is not really themselves at the time they're saying no? How do you know that no still means no when you can't communicate with the person and now have some new options you've never discussed? I guess I find no always meaning no or it doesn't leaves little room for complexity and a rather hard line to walk.

[Julia]

Like I said, maybe it is a moral distinction. Does no mean no if the person saying no is not really themselves at the time they're saying no? How do you know that no still means no when you can't communicate with the person and now have some new options you've never discussed? I guess I find no always meaning no or it doesn't leaves little room for complexity and a rather hard line to walk.

 

That could very easily be true. But it wipes out any objective distinction between what the two of them did.

[DittyDotDot]

Julia, on 10 Feb 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

That could very easily be true. But it wipes out any objective distinction between what the two of them did.

 

Maybe. But if the circumstances are different are the same actions really comparable?

Edited February 10, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

Bluntly, I think no means no or it doesn't. Otherwise what you have is someone's selective perception that their own preferred course is what the person double-super-secret _would_ have wanted despite the person's actual expressed wishes or lack of consent. I don't see that the two situations can really be distinguished except by what our subjective perception is of the rightness of each decision, which is where we fall down a rabbit hole or agree that mileage varies :)

 

Except that we can't take Demon Dean (or Soulless Sam) at their word.  Neither wanted to be "cured", but if we think of (real) Sam and Dean as hostages of their (unnatural) selves....

 

How often are hostages/kidnap victims forced to write notes or make phone calls that basically say, "Don't look for me -- I don't want to be found"?  The loved ones and police never follow those instructions because they were coerced.  

 

No means no, absolutely.  But in this case, Sam and Dean were coerced into saying no to their "cures", IMO.  

[catrox14]

 

sorry to be tiresome! But seriously, in S9, so much of what was the worst about Dean reminded me specifically of John -- the refusal to communicate, the bluster, the theatrical pouting, forcing others to tease out his motives or even what he's up to, and obviously giving Sam choices like this, leaning on Sam while still pretending to be in charge...Idk, obviously we didn't see a lot of John, so it's hard to tell, but I do feel like Dean is becoming his father. It's kind of weird because Sam always had more of John's personality, and I don't think that Dean's personality has become more like John's per se, but imo Dean's definitely acting quite a bit like him, and is certainly acting much more like him than Sam is. To be honest, I have *no* idea how OK Dean would be with becoming more like John though, anyway.

 

 

Taking  my response to the Dean thread

[rue721]

Bluntly, I think no means no or it doesn't. Otherwise what you have is someone's selective perception that their own preferred course is what the person double-super-secret _would_ have wanted despite the person's actual expressed wishes or lack of consent. I don't see that the two situations can really be distinguished except by what our subjective perception is of the rightness of each decision, which is where we fall down a rabbit hole or agree that mileage varies :)

 

If you're entrusted with taking care of someone, I think it's more complicated than just no means no. Obviously YMMV. If someone knows you're going to ultimately be the one to make the decisions for them, and they also sincerely trust you to do what's right for them, I think it's actually normal for them to express all kinds of feelings and wishes that they don't necessarily want/expect to be acted on and that they only feel free to express *because* they know you won't actually act on them (since they know that ultimately, those feelings and wishes aren't what's in their best interest, and they know you'll always try to act in their best interest).

 

With Dean in particular, imo he has trouble saying (or following through with), "I want XYZ to happen because that's what's best for *me.*" But obviously there are still things that he knows are best for him and that he'd wish would happen. I think that if Dean trusts Sam to try to do what's right *for Dean,* then that gives Dean the freedom to express whatever he wants, with the security that ultimately, Sam will look out for him and he won't get screwed no matter what he says or thinks.

 

When Dean got stabbed, Sam said in so many words that he'd take care of him, and that gave Dean the freedom to say whatever he wanted to say without the worry that meanwhile, what was best for him would get ignored or that he'd get played or even that he'd make a mistake and screw himself over -- because he knew Sam was looking out for him. Then, Sam followed through by looking out for Dean through the demon cure thing (despite what Dean was saying/doing as a demon, too), and I think that went a long way with Dean. YMMV, of course, but that's been my interpretation.

 

I think part of the betrayal of the Gadreel possession thing was that Sam trusted Dean to do whatever was in Sam's best interest, which is why when Dean appeared in his coma-scape, Sam felt fine giving him permission to do whatever he wanted to do. But once Sam found out the whole story, he felt that Dean's decision to have Gadreel possess him was in *Dean's* interest rather than in Sam's. Basically, Sam trusted Dean to look out for him, but when it came to that decision, he felt that Dean looked out for himself instead.

 

I think that part of what ended up swaying Sam and led to him forgiving Dean was seeing how badly Dean was struggling to take care of himself afterward. With crawling into a bottle and letting Crowley manipulate him, etc. Sam eventually seemed to realize that it wasn't that Dean didn't want to look out for him anymore, it's that he couldn't even look out for himself atm, let alone another person, too. JMV.

[DittyDotDot]

From the Lazarus Rising thread...

 

catrox14, on 23 Feb 2015 - 8:39 PM, said:

It's not that I didn't get he made some shitty choices, it's how he actually got to the point of making those choices that doesn't make sense to me. If Dean hadn't come back from Hell, a lot of what he was doing would've made more sense, but what was the point in half of what he was doing anymore?   I get why he originally hooked up with Ruby--Dean was in Hell, he was doomed so he figured he'd take out Lilith on his way out. But, why continue to align himself with a demon, who had already been proven to be a lying liar that lies, when Dean was sitting right beside him again? So much of it makes no sense to who Sam actually was shown to be previous to S4 and since they failed to actually show us how he got there, I find it rather baffling.

 

For me, Sam joining up with Ruby made sense because of what he did to find Dean in Mystery Spot and because he was obsessed with finding Jessica's murderer. I thought it was in character that Sam would go to any means necessary.

 

Any means necessary to do what, though? What was Sam actually trying to do and why?

 

Like I said, I get why he started to work with Ruby in the first place...he wanted to get some payback on Lilith for sending Dean to Hell. He figured he'd probably get killed in the crossfire, but didn't really give a shit as long as he took Lilith out in the process. But, after Dean comes back from Hell, what was the point anymore? And after they have their little tussle in Metamorphosis, Sam stops drinking the demon blood and stops working with Ruby. He tells Dean he's done with the psychic powers and reiterates it in Heaven And Hell when Ruby tells him he should tone up, he tells her "No, I'm not doing that anymore."

 

He seems to keep this up for months--from Metamorphosis until Criss Angel is a Douchebag--where he decides to start sneaking around behind Dean's back again; working with Ruby and drinking the demon blood. This is where Sam's motivations begin to make no sense. Why start again? What was his actual goal with the demon blood drinking this time?

 

He says he starts working with her so he doesn't have to be hunting when he's an old man. But he'd already committed to the hunting life back in S2 to honor John, I wasn't aware he still wanted out of the life. And, it seems like kinda an extreme measure to take if his goal was to get out of hunting...if he doesn't want to hunt, he should just stop hunting. IMO, what he was actually doing was killing himself, so that makes no sense. Then it seems he's hell bent on taking down Lilith to get payback for Dean again...but Dean's sitting right beside him. Still, seems a bit extreme and pointless. Then it seems like he decides he's doing it because Dean's not strong enough to do the deed himself, so he's gonna sacrifice himself to stop the apocalypse. Mmm'kay? What happened to wanting to have a different life as an old man?

 

I realize in retrospect much of Sam's wishy-washiness was the addiction talking--still doesn't quite explain it all to me--but again, we the audience didn't even learn he was drinking demon blood till On The Head Of A Pin, and didn't know he was addicted until The Rapture. So, when watching S4 the first time, it was a little hard to get a bead on what Sam was doing and why since it seemed he had a new nonsensical motivation every episode and his real motivation was shrouded in mystery for almost the entire season.

 

Even in retrospect, Sam deciding to taint himself further once Dean returned from Hell--given how disgusted he was to learn he was tainted with demon blood in the first place--still seems unlikely to me given who Sam was. Yeah, I think he would've done it to save Dean, but Dean was already saved so it kinda made everything he was doing seem pointless in the end, IMO.

Edited February 24, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

I think S4 was the first I watched live and, at the time, I was so pissed.  It made no sense to me that Sam was drinking demon blood and trusting Ruby.  Still doesn't, actually.

[catrox14]

I don't claim to understand Sam as others do, but I also have said that I think Sam is not a particularly complicated character. He's always seemed straightforward to me. But that's just me.

 

I thought Lazarus Rising showed that he was enjoying learning how to use his Hand of Ipecac because he was getting some kind of redemption for failing to save Dean. I  thought Sam's desperation was evident with with how his voice broke when he apologized to Dean for failing to get Dean out of Hell, no matter how hard he tried. t was all in Jared's performance IMO. His voice quivering and the look of defeat was pretty heartbreaking. It made sense to me that Sam was all kinds of messed up and was willing to do fucked up things.  IMO Sam never wanted to feel vulnerable or weak again so being able to use the Hand of Ipecac made him believe he was doing something for the greater good and felt powerful again.

 

Then thinking back to s2 and how much of a freak he felt like he was and that he just wanted to do something good with being a freak and coupling that with his perception that he failed Dean, I could see why the Hand of Ipecac became something he didn't want to give up.  IMO  I think he was a little smitten with Ruby 2.0 despite having hated her before because Ruby 2.0 was softer, and a little more vulnerable so I think Sam needed to believe that she could help him be successful again.

 

 Dean coming back didn't change that IMO because Sam was already so far down the rabbit hole that he couldn't help himself.  Not really.  He began it when Dean was still in Hell because he wasn't coping well and it was the one thing he thought he could do since everything else failed.  To me that's like what Dean did in s9 with taking on the MoC.  He thought it was the only way to make things right and by the time Sam realized what it was really doing to Dean, Dean was already too far down the rabbit hole to come back easily if at all. 

 

But again to me, I didn't need every detail spelled out. I just believe that Sam would do desperate things. I mean he did fall in love with a werewolf overnight and he did go nuts seeing Dean die over and over in Mystery Spot. He wanted to get Dean back and was willing to do whatever it took.  He was killed and resurrected. He did have psychic powers. 

 

But he couldn't save Dean from Helll which IMO nearly destroyed him so needed to kill Lilith to prove to himself  he wasn't a failure.

 

Not sure if I articulated that very well, but to me Sam doing what he did made sense even if it was an awful choice because he was so broken after Dean went to Hell.  He needed to put a W on the board, so to speak. And if Ruby was going to help him get there, then he was going to do it.

Edited February 24, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I thought Lazarus Rising showed that he was enjoying learning how to use his Hand of Ipecac and he was convincing himself that he found a new better way to exorcise demons so he could tell himself he was doing it for the greater good and that he was not going to fail again like he failed in Mystery Spot or failed to save Dean from Hell. 

 

[...]

 

Dean coming back didn't change that IMO because Sam was already so far down the rabbit hole that he couldn't help himself.  Not really.  He began it when Dean was still in Hell because he wasn't coping well and it was the one thing he thought he could do since everything else failed.  To me that's like what Dean did in s9 with taking on the MoC.  He thought it was the only way to make things right and by the time Sam realized what it was really doing to Dean, Dean was already too far down the rabbit hole to come back easily if at all.

 

I think what you're possibly missing though is Metamorphosis--when Sam realized there was nothing good going to come from his using his powers and quit using them for months. As I've stated many times now, how he started originally is totally clear. How he started again after months of no demon blood drinking is the confusing part. He was out of the rabbit hole and decided to get back in it and they never explained why he made that turnabout halfway through the season.

 

I agree it's the same thing they did with Dean in S9, the main difference being we saw how Dean got to the point he did and why he was doing it. Every one of Dean's decisions that went to shit was shown to us starting with the Gadreel possession, continuing to lie to Sam about it that led to Kevin's death, having to go after Gadreel and get Sam back and finally taking on the MoC. We saw Dean continuing to dig himself in deeper in each and every episode, we saw what it was doing to him, his regrets and how it was isolating him and chipping away at what little self respect he had left. We watched him fall down the rabbit hole so it made it easier to understand why he was so foolhardy when he took on the MoC. I wasn't sitting there going, "what's Dean doing, this isn't Dean," but was sitting there saying, "oh this isn't going to end well."

 

With Sam in S4, I was constantly wondering how Sam could make some of decisions he was making because we weren't privy to him making any decisions but where told later he had made them. It's not that I needed it spelled out to me in detail--I obviously followed along and got it--but it definitely would've helped me understand what Sam was going through if they'd not tried to keep what Sam was doing such a mystery.

[catrox14]

 

I think what you're possibly missing though is Metamorphosis--when Sam realized there was nothing good going to come from his using his powers and quit using them for months. As I've stated many times now, how he started originally is totally clear. How he started again after months of no demon blood drinking is the confusing part. He was out of the rabbit hole and decided to get back in it and they never explained why he made that turnabout halfway through the season.

 

I'm not missing Metamorphosis.  That's why I mentioned Sam thinking he was doing it for the greater good. He said it was saving lives vs not saving lives with the demon knife.  That's why I said he couldn't easily give up the Hand of Ipecac. He was lying to Dean and to himself that he could stop. Didn't he resume after learning that the angels were dicks? I think he was always teetering on that edge of needing thje demon blood because he couldn't admit that the power was what he was actually strung out on. It was easier to think it was the demon blood vs his own power addiction

Edited February 24, 2015 by catrox14

[GirlyGeek]

I agree that what we were shown from Sam's POV just wasn't enough, and I fault the writing for this.  It seems like they were going for the 'shock and awe' moments, and teasing the fans along, when what really happened is that we were left scratching our heads wanting to like the main lead character (s) but not sure why they were doing anything they did.

 

I can fan-wank Sam's actions, but it really isn't based on what was shown on screen.

We  needed to *see* Sam going a little crazy after Mystery Spot... and we didn't.  Even, episodes later, had he brought it up at all, I could have gone... ohhhh, ya he's messed up about it and I could have had more empathy and understanding.

We needed to *see* something that triggered Sam to flip back to Ruby and Demon blood... and I'm sorry but Criss Angel episode didn't make any sense to make that happen!  

We needed to *see* that Sam was so pissed about Dean coming back too broken that he was re-fueled in his revenge plot
Or, the is she evil/is she helping Ruby plot needed to be given up much earlier so the viewers could understand and root *for* Sam to figure it out.

Like i said, I can fan wank....
Sam saw that he was damned no matter what he did- the angels still hated him/damned him whether he was drinking demon blood or not.  He was tainted (in his eyes)

Dean came back so messed up from Hell that *Sam felt like* he was going to be useless in what needed to be done against Lillith, so Sam went back to Ruby (we hear this MUCH later in the season, but it was a bit late for me because I was already all "huh?" re: Sam)

I haven't gotten through the rest of the S4 re-watch, so I'll have more to say once I refresh my memory.  I can say that S4 does much better on re-watch because I already know what's coming and how Sam feels and what drove him, but its a little too late because I lost a ton of empathy for the character while getting through S4 the first time.  

 

 

I think he was always teetering on that edge of needing thje demon blood because he couldn't admit that the power was what he was actually strung out on. It was easier to think it was the demon blood vs his own power addiction

 

Again, it would have been awesome for us, the viewers, to know that this was happening.  But, I blame the writers again, they wanted it to be shocking that it was him drinking blood and getting all strung out on it/the power, so it was late S4 before we even were shown that.  By then, I'd lost interest in trying to figure him out cause he was just pissing me off.  lol
in retro-spect, of course I get it.  But I think the writers so badly wanted to put the boys into a tailspin and just went about it all wrong.
It could have been a very organic fight about whether or not it was worth losing yourself to fight evil.  Instead it was that fight, but behind curtains and layers of lies that weren't revealed until fans were already too upset (IMO).
 

Edited February 24, 2015 by GirlyGeek

[catrox14]

We needed to *see* Sam going a little crazy after Mystery Spot... and we didn't.

I thought seeing Sam become a cyborg emotionless killing machine who kept an uneaten hamburger as his dining companion was a good sign he'd lost it. I also think he wasn't particular well when Bobby said he got real quiet and just took off. I thought seeing him sneak around with a demon was a good sign he lost it. So based on those things and Sams perchance for binge drinking, I don't think it was all that surprising that Sam would binge drink demon blood too.

[GirlyGeek]

Well then, I guess for me it just came off as Sam being a dick, not a sympathetic character that needed help.  Just didn't work for me during the season, though I can appreciate it now somewhat.
At the time, to me it was Sam replacing Dean with a demon (who was obviously stringing him along), on a road of vengeance for someone who was *sitting right beside him now/no longer dead*, lying about it and feeding into Dean's own issues (abandoning him, hell, boo hoo, not strong enough, etc etc)

The demon blood drinking still shocks me, honestly.  I don't see a parallel between his occasional getting drunk and drinking blood, though.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm not missing Metamorphosis.  That's why I mentioned Sam thinking he was doing it for the greater good. He said it was saving lives vs not saving lives with the demon knife.  That's why I said he couldn't easily give up the Hand of Ipecac. He was lying to Dean and to himself that he could stop. Didn't he resume after learning that the angels were dicks? I think he was always teetering on that edge of needing thje demon blood because he couldn't admit that the power was what he was actually strung out on. It was easier to think it was the demon blood vs his own power addiction

 

Well, since he did stop for eight episodes, I'm not sure he was actually strung out any longer, but that's all left up to interpretation since we never saw it anyway.

 

Regardless, my entire point is in retrospect I understand it, but since it wasn't revealed he was drinking demon blood until episode 16 and wasn't shown that he was strung out until episode 20, it was frustrating to watch the first time. For 20 episodes Sam was allover the place and there was no explanation as to why.  So, yeah, at episode 20 it all started to make sense, but that's a lot of episodes to watch not understanding why Sam was acting why he was. It's not that I don't understand it now, but on the first watching it was frustrating to watch 20 episodes of mystery.

 

So based on those things and Sams perchance for binge drinking, I don't think it was all that surprising that Sam would binge drink demon blood too.

 

Sam has a penchant for binge-drinking? I recall him getting drunk once in S2 and doing some drinking after Dean went to Hell, but other than that I don't recall Sam doing much drinking at all other than having the occasional drink with Dean. Regardless, I think binge-drinking alcohol and swinging demon blood would probably not be the same. There's a stigma and ick-factor surrounding drinking normal blood.

[catrox14]

Well, since he did stop for eight episodes, I'm not sure he was actually strung out any longer, but that's all left up to interpretation since we never saw it anyway.

 

Regardless, my entire point is in retrospect I understand it, but since it wasn't revealed he was drinking demon blood until episode 16 and wasn't shown that he was strung out until episode 20, it was frustrating to watch the first time. For 20 episodes Sam was allover the place and there was no explanation as to why.  So, yeah, at episode 20 it all started to make sense, but that's a lot of episodes to watch not understanding why Sam was acting why he was. It's not that I don't understand it now, but on the first watching it was frustrating to watch 20 episodes of mystery.

 

 

Sam has a penchant for binge-drinking? I recall him getting drunk once in S2 and doing some drinking after Dean went to Hell, but other than that I don't recall Sam doing much drinking at all other than having the occasional drink with Dean. Regardless, I think binge-drinking alcohol and swinging demon blood would probably not be the same. There's a stigma and ick-factor surrounding drinking normal blood.

 

I meant in s4 it was established that he was drinking himself into oblivion in the flashback when we saw him trying to save Dean and he shot the crossroads demon in the head because she wouldn't make a deal. To me, that binge drinking  and the demon blood drinking are in line with his obsessive behaviors like in Mystery Spot and chasing the YED, which were all about getting back power and control that he didn't think he had as a whole new level of freak and  because he couldn't save Dean.  Mileage varies as always.

[AwesomO4000]

This is might be a little discombobulated, so hopefully it'll still make sense. I think it might be confusing, because I actually somewhat agree with everybody here. I think the writers both showed enough - for some things - and not enough - for other things. My main problem was that they threw in other, extraneous stuff that made the stuff that should have made sense now not make sense and/or just pissed me off. So here goes - I hope this makes sense...
 

We  needed to *see* Sam going a little crazy after Mystery Spot... and we didn't.

 

For me, I did. Not only were there the examples in the episode itself that catrox14 mentioned - and yeah that extra place setting was way disturbing - but after the episode, there were enough clues for me that something wasn't right in Sammyland. It started out somewhat subtle - his willingness to consider killing Nancy in "Jus in Bello," his losing his patience with Dean and yelling at him about taking the case in "Ghostfacers" - and then tipped over pretty close to batshit crazy with "Time Is On My Side." Because, yeah, considering making your brother a walking zombie equivalent, complete with potentially harvesting parts - because they knew hellhounds were coming after "Crossroad Blues," so things were likely to get ugly - and then making yourself one too? Well, that's not what I would call normal-thinking there. That's bordering on desperate to the point of losing rational thought. There is no way that plan would have ended well or likely without bloodshed and/or demon, dead person, innocent person part harvesting. At all. And that Sam considered that an option and one that Dean might consider = Sam is pretty messed up in my book.

 

At the time, to me it was Sam replacing Dean with a demon (who was obviously stringing him along), on a road of vengeance for someone who was *sitting right beside him now/no longer dead*, lying about it...

 

This also didn't bother me in terms of motivation. In fact, I think Dean being right next to him added to Sam's misery. Yes, Dean was right next to him, but unlike earlier in the season, when Sam believed either Dean's lie (I'm still not clear if Dean remembered hell right away or it came back in bits and pieces) or Dean was legitimately "okay," now Dean was falling apart, and in Sam's miind - that was mostly his fault. He couldn't save Dean, and he couldn't get him out of hell... and then it wasn't 4 months but all of a sudden 40 years - compounding Sam's failure. Dean was broken, and it was his (Sam's) fault, so Dean being back didn't fix Sam's feeling of failure and need to do something right, in my opinion - it actually added to it. I had no problem there. But this...

 

and feeding into Dean's own issues (abandoning him, hell, boo hoo, not strong enough, etc etc)

 

Was the part that pissed me off. None of that stuff made any sense. I've seen discussion that it was pretty much a continuation of Sam's "Daddy's little soldier" thing, but to me, that makes little sense and doesn't track. What Sam was saying in "Asylum" made total sense based on their past. It would make sense - to me - that Sam might have some buried resentment for Dean always being the "good son" and doing whatever Dad said, because that would make Sam's road of trying to be independent much more difficult by making him look like the "bad son" in comparison. And Dean's early attitude of "well, why didn't you just do what Dad told you to, and everything would've been fine." played right into this and why Sam might have buried resentment.

 

But it's a huge difference between that - which coincidentally in season 4, Sam was coming around to that way of thinking instead anyway (see "Afterschool Special" and "Jump the Shark") - and "you're weak because you broke in hell after 30 years of torture, boo hoo" which even entirely contradicted what Sam said before when Dean first told him, so that to me is where they lost me and pissed me off. If they wanted me to believe Sam made that turn around - and not only saw Dean as damaged, but weak - I needed something in there to show me that transition, and for me they didn't. It was just something that they stuck in there for drama and so I would either sympathize with Dean or dislike Sam. I can't really think of any other reason for including crap like that, or any reason the writers wouldn't know how awful that was going to look. It wasn't even needed for Sam's motivation at all, so I was not amused.

 

And I didn't think it was needed for Sam's motivation, because I still don't buy into the "need for power" thing that they were trying to sell still in early season 5. Sam's need to have control over his own life, to not be a failure and do something right, even his need for revenge... I get all of that and that makes sense to me. His supposedly wanting to be "stronger than everyone" - that makes little sense to me, because if that was the case, Sam had that chance back at the end of season 2 when he could've become Azazel's army leader. It also makes no sense in his everyday dynamic where he's generally happy trusting and following Dean's lead, and this had been shown to be the case in "All Hell Breaks Loose, pt 1." It also didn't mesh for me with his suicidal streak during this time and his seeming acceptance that he'd likely die doing his mission. So which was it? Was he suicidal or did he want power? For me, those two things don't really go together unless they are trying to tell me that Sam is a suicide bomber or something.

 

 

And I also agree that if not showing us why Sam decided to drink demon blood in the first place - which to me that was a big thing to skip... it would be like skipping why and how Dean decided to get the mark of Cain in season 9 with only the explanation "I need it to kill Abbadon" - I thought they at least could've had a more believable reasoning behind why Sam decided to start again, since "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" made no sense - to me, anyway. Because since when? Sam had been spouting "I (We) don't want normal, I (We) want this" since early season 2 and "it sucks sometimes, but it's worth it" since later season 2.

 

I'm likely missing something that I was going to say - since thinking about "Sex and Violence" makes me see red and makes me lose some rational thought - so I reserve the right to add more later.

 

Interesting discussion, imo.

[mertensia]

See what Sam and Dean spewed at each other in Sex and Violence doesn't bother me because of the siren. The siren didn't just want them to fight- it wanted them to hurt each other. So- in my mind anyhow - it influenced them to exaggerate. What was a minor annoyance gets magnified into full blown vitriol that isn't true. It would be like me going from telling my cat "you sure cost a lot of money to feed" to screaming at her to go get a job and shoving her out the door and telling her not to return until she had money.

[GirlyGeek]

See what Sam and Dean spewed at each other in Sex and Violence doesn't bother me because of the siren. The siren didn't just want them to fight- it wanted them to hurt each other. So- in my mind anyhow - it influenced them to exaggerate. What was a minor annoyance gets magnified into full blown vitriol that isn't true. It would be like me going from telling my cat "you sure cost a lot of money to feed" to screaming at her to go get a job and shoving her out the door and telling her not to return until she had money.

I don't get my panties in a twist over that ep too much either, but I have to disagree with your assessment.

Yes, the Siren magnified the issues. However, Deans attack was far different than Sam's. Everything Dean said was both true and about something Sam was doing, not about who he is/was, and he specifically said it wasn't Sam's powers or the demon blood, it was Sam lying and sneaking around.

Sam's argument was all attacking Dean personally (you're too weak, holding me back, boo boo about hell, stop whining).

Two very different fighting style, imo.

But what makes the biggest difference- Sam comes down off the Sirens spell and continues to say and show Dean that he meant everything he said. He does think Deans holding him back and too weak and he tells him many more times (or tells the audience).

That said, I don't think Sam would have openly made fun of Deans torture in hell out loud without the Sirens influence.

I don't think of this as a Sam vs Dean issue, though... I just think the writers overstepped here. In retrospect, I chalk Sam's dickishness up to the demon Blood he was guzzling (that we didn't know about yet) and the Siren just hugely magnified everything more for him.

[trxr4kids]

.

 

But it's a huge difference between that - which coincidentally in season 4, Sam was coming around to that way of thinking instead anyway (see "Afterschool Special" and "Jump the Shark") - and "you're weak because you broke in hell after 30 years of torture, boo hoo" which even entirely contradicted what Sam said before when Dean first told him, so that to me is where they lost me and pissed me off. If they wanted me to believe Sam made that turn around - and not only saw Dean as damaged, but weak - I needed something in there to show me that transition, and for me they didn't. It was just something that they stuck in there for drama and so I would either sympathize with Dean or dislike Sam. I can't really think of any other reason for including crap like that, or any reason the writers wouldn't know how awful that was going to look. It wasn't even needed for Sam's motivation at all, so I was not amused.

 

I think you have to take into account who Sam was listening to at the time, Ruby had previously said that demons were made after hundreds or thousands of years of torture, so what's 30 measly years. Plus who knows what else she whispered in his ear, she needed Dean and Sam at odds, so she said and did whatever it took. I can't remember if the siren ep was before or after On The Head of a Pin but Alastair also said that John lasted for  like a hundred years not that Sam necessarily knew that but I wonder if the show actually thought that the audience would/should see Dean's giving in as weak which is bizarre but eh, this show.

Edited February 25, 2015 by trxr4kids

[AwesomO4000]

I think you have to take into account who Sam was listening to at the time, Ruby had previously said that demons were made after hundreds or thousands of years of torture, so what's 30 measly years. Plus who knows what else she whispered in his ear, she needed Dean and Sam at odds, so she said and did whatever it took. I can't remember if the siren ep was before or after On The Head of a Pin but Alastair also said that John lasted for  like a hundred years not that Sam necessarily knew that but I wonder if the show actually thought that the audience would/should see Dean's giving in as weak which is bizarre but eh, this show.

 

But that's the thing fpr me. I don't think the writing really show us much of that. Most of the conversations they showed between Ruby and Sam, Ruby was actually appearing to be sympathetic to Dean. She would say things like "Maybe we should tell Dean", "I don't want to come between you" and "when this is all over, Dean will understand." I actually don't remember them ever showing a conversation where Ruby directly said anything like Dean was weak, and if they did, it would've been way near the end, I think. So that was the thing for me. The writers alluded to these things, but they didn't really show us any of it. And since we weren't shown any of this manipulation, it was difficult to relate to what was happening with Sam. * We weren't even shown scenes of Ruby alone doing things behind Sam's back to illustrate the manipulation - I think they were trying to give the illusion that maybe Ruby was potentially "good" so that her betrayal would be a big shock, but really all it mostly ended up doing, in my opinion, was clouding the issue, because if Ruby wasn't really doing any manipulation that we could see, why was Sam acting this way? So it must be Sam.

 

And no, "On the Head of a Pin," wasn't until two episodes later where we heard what Alastair said about John... and where we finally found out about the blood-drinking. Weirdly, despite finding out about the blood-drinking, in some ways, I felt that Sam was actually kind of sympathetic in that episode. Yes, part of his objection was that Dean couldn't do what Castiel and Uriel wanted - potentially thinking that Dean was too "weak" to do it -  but even more I got the impression that Sam was worried about what the torturing would do to Dean, even psychologically. Sam was furious at Catsiel for getting Dean hurt and almost killed. And there was the complicating factor of Pamela's death and how Dean was taking that, so Sam had even more reason to be worried about Dean's fragile mental state (and again that might go towards Dean being in a "weaker" state psychologically).

 

But none of that happened until after "Sex and Violence," and the "boo hoo" thing, in my opinion, was just uncalled for. It had less to do even with Dean breaking, and more it was making fun of Dean feeling bad for torturing (and interesting that two episodes later, it appeared that Sam was worried about that for Dean). I guess it was supposed to show that deep down Sam didn't think Dean could do what needed to be done and that his "morals" were getting in the way, but it was unnecessary, in my opinion, because there were other ways to show that that were much less damaging to Sam - especially because we, the audience, didn't know about the blood drinking and wouldn't know about it for two more episodes.

 

* Unlike for example with season 9 where we were shown the reasons for Dean going down all the roads he did and were given at least some evidence that Crowley was manipulating Dean, so that we would understand.

 

But Catherine Humphries, who wrote this episode, has kind of been a mixed bag when it comes to Sam, for me. And maybe she might romanticize Evil Sam a bit. (She wrote "Born Under A Bad Sign.")

[trxr4kids]

I agree this show has a serious problem with showing the POV of the two main characters ( why yes show, there are two), it's bizarre and maybe they should head hunt for writers who have experience with ensemble casts. This is the same issue they have with showing mytharcs for two main characters.

[catrox14]

 

Most of the conversations they showed between Ruby and Sam, Ruby was actually appearing to be sympathetic to Dean. She would say things like "Maybe we should tell Dean", "I don't want to come between you" and "when this is all over, Dean will understand." I actually don't remember them ever showing a conversation where Ruby directly said anything like Dean was weak, and if they did, it would've been way near the end, I think.

 

 

For me I never trusted a thing Ruby said or did.  To me, Ruby seeming to be so concerned with coming between Sam and Dean was just a way to make Sam trust her more. If she can seem like she would never want the brothers at odds then Sam will like her more since Sam loves Dean.  Then when she needed to push Sam in the direction she wanted, she already had Sam on her side because she had considered Dean when Dean dismissed her out of hand when he came back from Hell

[rue721]

I thought seeing Sam become a cyborg emotionless killing machine who kept an uneaten hamburger as his dining companion was a good sign he'd lost it.

 

I am going to have to rewatch Mystery Spot tonight. Just for that. I've forgotten all about there being a hamburger!brother.

 

Weirdly, despite finding out about the blood-drinking, in some ways, I felt that Sam was actually kind of sympathetic in that episode. Yes, part of his objection was that Dean couldn't do what Castiel and Uriel wanted - potentially thinking that Dean was too "weak" to do it -  but even more I got the impression that Sam was worried about what the torturing would do to Dean, even psychologically. Sam was furious at Catsiel for getting Dean hurt and almost killed. And there was the complicating factor of Pamela's death and how Dean was taking that, so Sam had even more reason to be worried about Dean's fragile mental state (and again that might go towards Dean being in a "weaker" state psychologically).

 

Season 4 is perpetually a little fuzzy in my mind, so I'm not 100% sure. But I think that maybe Sam reacting so angrily to Dean, and vacillating between tearing him down and worrying about him, was coming from a place of Sam feeling like a complete failure for not keeping Dean out of Hell and then not getting him out of it -- and searching for a reason why he was failing Dean (in Sam's POV), and trying to put the blame (that was coming from within himself, nobody else) somewhere, anywhere else (including onto Dean).

 

I think that the "you're what's holding me back!" and the "you're weak!" and saying boohoo for what happened in Hell was Sam trying (hideously but imo not incomprehensibly) to say that it wasn't his fault that he hadn't saved Dean (Dean was the one holding him back! Dean was too weak to help!), or that not saving him wasn't as big a failure as it felt like (Dean shouldn't have broken in Hell! It hadn't even been that long!). But nobody aside from Sam was blaming himself for not saving Dean or for Dean breaking in Hell or any of that, and even Sam wasn't blaming himself out loud or in any obvious way *to* Dean. So it just felt out of left field when he overcompensated so hard (trying to deflect blame that was otherwise more-or-less invisible).

 

What makes me think that Sam *was* blaming himself during that time, and just in general, though, was how irrational he become in his attempt to keep Dean from going to Hell in the first place (imo, the zombie doctor plan -- which he was *serious* about, even after seeing the zombie doctor! -- made me think he was honestly just not in his right mind anymore by the time the deal was coming due), and that after Dean went to Hell, he couldn't deal with Bobby, couldn't deal with giving Dean a hunter's funeral, and let Ruby (of all people! a demon?!) lead him around by the nose.

 

Even though Sam hadn't wanted the (demonic) power that Yellow Eyes had been trying to "give" him in S1/S2, that was still the biggest offer of power that he felt that he'd ever had. And I think he did feel like he *needed* power because he had this gigantic mission -- to save his brother from Hell -- that he was completely overwhelmed by and had failed at epically thus far. So I think that he did try to finally claim the power that Yellow Eyes had offered him, via Ruby. But Yellow Eyes was dead and the offer of power had always been fake anyway, it had always been just an offer to become delusional and easier to manipulate, and to lead himself to the slaughter. (Like Jake did).

 

Also, I think that Sam *did* hate being this freakish, demonic creature, but I think he was pretty ready to punish himself for his "failure" to save Dean, so I think that the more the plan (aka, Ruby's plan) was horrible and self-sacrificing, the more ready he was to do it. Sam's always been like that, imo, he's always trying to throw himself into the fire in order to purify himself, and this was one version of it.

 

 

Anyway, when it comes to arguments, at this point, I expect Sam to blow up and fight dirty. I don't think he believes that stuff really, I think he's just a hothead who becomes an asshole in an argument. That one has a temper on him! So when he goes off and says even THE MOST RIDICULOUS STUFF I honestly just want Dean to be like, "pfffffft!" I mean, presumably Dean was also there when Sam was flipping out about...Idk, needing to brush his teeth or doubling down on the Easter Bunny TOTALLY being real or whatever. He certainly was there when Sam and John blew up at each other and said things to each other that they didn't mean (like John telling Sam to get out and not come back, apparently).

 

I feel like, yes, Sam can be really hurtful. Knowing he's a hothead probably wouldn't make it less hurtful to hear some of that stuff, I would think, and it does seem like some of those things are just echoing in Dean's head over and over. I mean, I get the feeling that Dean legitimately cares about Sam's opinion of him, and I do think that when Sam says he doesn't respect him or something like that, he takes that personally (regardless that I doubt he's worried that he's *actually* holding Sam back or anything like that in practical terms, I think that he does seem to worry about Sam losing respect for him or not caring about him enough).

 

But on the other hand, Dean knows that Sam burns hot, but also burns out pretty fast. Sam will double-down on bullcrap later that day (aka, within the episode) or maybe even a stretch of weeks/months (aka, a few episodes), but he's not going to dredge up personal complaints against Dean like five or ten years later. Like when Sam asked Dean if he had any suggestions for what to confess in order to purify himself for the Trials, and Dean had what seemed like ninety suggestions, stretching back to when Sam was ~8 -- you know that if the roles were reversed, Sam wouldn't have brought up stuff like, "remember that time we were in elementary school and you..." even as a joke. Imo, he'll be much nastier to Dean in the moment, but then get over the conflict relatively fast, whereas Dean would probably never say to Sam the kinds of things that Sam says to Dean, but Dean will continue picking at a scab yearssss. As much as I am on Dean's side about how terrible it was that Sam got so involved with Ruby, that he was STILL like, "told you so! that was horrible!" and calling out Sam for that 4+ years after they stabbed her to death had even me rolling my eyes.

 

Also, they were raised by a hothead, too, so I can't imagine that Dean doesn't know how to just lick his wounds and carry on. I think Dean is actually the odd one out in that way in their family.

 

To me, Sam's inability to keep from fighting dirty in arguments has been consistent enough on the show that it's just a character flaw that Sam apparently has, so I honestly don't even pay that much attention to what he's saying. When he has a real complaint, he'll try to have a real discussion about it. Once his temper is up and he's really angry, imo he stops saying what he actually thinks and just says whatever he thinks will hurt the most.

[SueB]

See what Sam and Dean spewed at each other in Sex and Violence doesn't bother me because of the siren. The siren didn't just want them to fight- it wanted them to hurt each other. So- in my mind anyhow - it influenced them to exaggerate. What was a minor annoyance gets magnified into full blown vitriol that isn't true. It would be like me going from telling my cat "you sure cost a lot of money to feed" to screaming at her to go get a job and shoving her out the door and telling her not to return until she had money.

.

I need to see this as a vlog or something.

[Frost]

Can someone summarize the Campbell storyline for me?  I know Dean went back in time during the episode where Yellow Eyes killed grandma Deanna, grandpa Samuel, and John so Mary made the deal to bring back John in return for the unspecified favor to be named later.  But what was the deal with Samuel coming back and rounding up the Campbell clan during the soul-less Sam season?  Was Samuel in Hell or Heaven?  Who resurrected him?  I just caught a rerun where Samuel is doing favors for Crowley but what was the context?  If there really is a long history of Campbells being hunters, why wouldn't the Men of Letters know about them?  Did every Campbell get killed?  So many questions!

[trxr4kids]

I'll endeavor to sum it up......it made no sense and there were no answers because.....sorry, I wasn't yelling at you. Maybe I should head to the bitterness thread.

[SueB]

Can someone summarize the Campbell storyline for me?  I know Dean went back in time during the episode where Yellow Eyes killed grandma Deanna, grandpa Samuel, and John so Mary made the deal to bring back John in return for the unspecified favor to be named later.  But what was the deal with Samuel coming back and rounding up the Campbell clan during the soul-less Sam season?  Was Samuel in Hell or Heaven?  Who resurrected him?  I just caught a rerun where Samuel is doing favors for Crowley but what was the context?  If there really is a long history of Campbells being hunters, why wouldn't the Men of Letters know about them?  Did every Campbell get killed?  So many questions!

As I understand it Crowley said he brought Samuel up from Hell. Which, was stated BEFORE we knew Cas was involved. So, I think it's not definitive he was in Hell. If he was in Heaven then Cas got him. Regardless, Samuel's value was his apparently exceptional Hunter skills. He was able to not only pull together the remaining hunters in the Casmpbell clan but he provided a partner for Sam. I suspect this was what Cas wanted. He wanted Dean kept out of things (per The Man who would be King).

By the end of S6, it would appear there were no more Campbell hunters. They went after Samuel's library in Frontierland and it appeared the compound was deserted. It seemed it was down to just Gwen and Samuel but they both died in ...And Then There Were None. Kinda appropriate.

[rue721]

What about that shifter baby? Didn't Christian Campbell and his wife adopt him, or were planning to? So I guess he's maybe a Campbell. But no telling what happened to that poor child!

Edited March 5, 2015 by rue721