All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Res said:

My problem with the "blood test" done is that she says she hooks up with random guys without a permenant address, like Dean whose blood she apparently never got, so who's to say that she got the other guys blood or that they and Dean didn't have the same blood type? I know most are "who cares, lol!science" but I'm a forensic science teacher and that bugs the heck out of me.

Plus, as a mom, I wouldn't tell the guy who hunts monsters it's his kid, whether he saved me, the kid or the universe, in case either of them get illusions about the kid following in dad's footsteps. 

But mainly it's the blood test that irritates because she didn't have his blood, or whatever, unless she kept "keepsakes" for weeks just in case in which case, EWWWW!

It wasn't a series of random guys. She said it was a barback in a biker bar.  Seemed to me she knew exactly who she thought it was and got the blood test with him.  I think they probably short handed 'blood test' for 'paternity test' and didn't think much about IMO.  I don't think they figured fans would be worried about it since she said it wasn't Dean's kid. 

I can see your point for s3, but then she let that same guy, move in with her without much question and stay for a year. So his influence was going to be felt regardless. 

[Icarus]

I think the writers wanted us to think that he was Dean's son but made sure we were first led in then whitewashed out again. It could have been done for fun but probably was a plot point they might have thought would be worth visiting again later. Why would they make Ben's actions so Dean like if they weren't trying to say that he was. Also the blood test scenario was rubbish as per Res's explanation. I don't have a problem with Ben not being Dean's son only with the way they made it difficult to not think he was and then just as with so many story lines leaving it hanging.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Icarus said:

I think the writers wanted us to think that he was Dean's son but made sure we were first led in then whitewashed out again. It could have been done for fun but probably was a plot point they might have thought would be worth visiting again later. Why would they make Ben's actions so Dean like if they weren't trying to say that he was. Also the blood test scenario was rubbish as per Res's explanation. I don't have a problem with Ben not being Dean's son only with the way they made it difficult to not think he was and then just as with so many story lines leaving it hanging.

I always took that to be more nothing more than an examination of Dean's insecurity about dying and not leaving anything behind but a car, so he was quick to think Ben could be his kid. Given that Lisa said the father was a barback in a biker bar it's just as likely that he had a leather coat, a motorcycle instead of an Impala, liked rock music and flirting with the ladies, just like Dean.

[Wayward Son]

I honestly can’t remember where possibly a s3 dvd special feature, or the s3 companion, but I’m fairly certain I remember hearing the whole Ben is so like Dean thing from TKAR was a directors choice and not so heavily emphasised in the original script. 

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I honestly can’t remember where possibly a s3 dvd special feature, or the s3 companion, but I’m fairly certain I remember hearing the whole Ben is so like Dean thing from TKAR was a directors choice and not so heavily emphasised in the original script. 

Yes, that was an extra on the season 3 DVDs.  They're specifically talking about the scene in the park where Dean and Ben look down at the same time, and I think when they both turned to look after the girl/woman outside of the bouncy house at the party.

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, that was an extra on the season 3 DVDs.  They're specifically talking about the scene in the park where Dean and Ben look down at the same time, and I think when they both turned to look after the girl/woman outside of the bouncy house at the party.

Ah yes, I remember that now! 

 

I just thought it was worth mentioning that it wasn’t Gamble’s original plan since people had been asking why make him so like Dean it Ben being his son wasnt the plan. 

[catrox14]

Wasn't the kiss also a last minute thing the director, Phil Sgriccia told her to do and that Jensen didn't know it was coming?

It might be one of those things where the director is just doing something for fun on screen but changes the episode in a way maybe the writer didn't intend.  I don't know. It's interesting that it was Phil Sgriccia who is one of the better directors but it was also his 5 episode directing although he was with the show as a producer from the jump.  

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

--As to Cas being unable to heal all of Sam's mental and emotional wounds, why would he have left behind that most terrifying thing of Lucifer's True Face when he took the burden from Sam? Wouldn't he have left the lesser of the injuries and trauma and taken away a memory of something that he himself has likely seen as they are both angels?

From the 13x12 thread discussion.

My take on Cas taking on Sam's burden in S7. I don't believe that he actually took away all of his memories, so much as he stopped Sam's Hellucinations. It seems to me that Sam was dealing okay with the hell-pain memories, much like Dean did. It wasn't until the Hellucinations that he started to lose it - when Lucifer appeared to him and started taunting him. It was mental torture and lack of sleep that put him in the hospital and was literally killing him. Cas took that away, which allowed Sam to heal, physically. I think he still has his memories (as does Dean) but he handles them (as does Dean). I just think it's really convenient that they bring them up now, and not when Lucifer was actually threatening them the last two seasons, or when he was living in Sam's damn bedroom in the bunker. I think the true face nonsense is pure retcon.

ETA:

From 7x18 Party On Garth (the episode following Cas taking on the Hellucinations)

SAM
So, Cas is the same, then?

DEAN
Yeah, down to the drool.

SAM
Huh.

DEAN
By the way, how is your custard?

SAM
It's all right. It's getting better. Just wish it wasn't like the damn tape from "The Ring." I mean, I feel like I'm okay 'cause I passed on the crazy.

Edited February 7, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

From the 13x12 thread discussion.

My take on Cas taking on Sam's burden in S7. I don't believe that he actually took away all of his memories, so much as he stopped Sam's Hellucinations. It seems to me that Sam was dealing okay with the hell-pain memories, much like Dean did. It wasn't until the Hellucinations that he started to lose it - when Lucifer appeared to him and started taunting him. It was mental torture and lack of sleep that put him in the hospital and was literally killing him. Cas took that away, which allowed Sam to heal, physically. I think he still has his memories (as does Dean) but he handles them (as does Dean). I just think it's really convenient that they bring them up now, and not when Lucifer was actually threatening them the last two seasons, or when he was living in Sam's damn bedroom in the bunker. I think the true face nonsense is pure retcon.

I still have trouble with this idea that he wouldn't have taken away the most painful, most terrifying thing of Lucifer's True Face, given it seems he can pick and choose which memories to erase, see: Lisa and Ben, the feds in s11, other random people he can erase memories but in this situation, he left behind this one really big one that still apparently affects Sam? That's IMO definitely a sign of a retcon.

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I still have trouble with this idea that he wouldn't have taken away the most painful, most terrifying thing of Lucifer's True Face, given it seems he can pick and choose which memories to erase, see: Lisa and Ben, the feds in s11, other random people he can erase memories but in this situation, he left behind this one really big one that still apparently affects Sam? That's IMO definitely a sign of a retcon.

It could be that Cas transferred the damage from Sam's soul to himself with the intent to remove the memories afterwards. However, after the switch caused Cas to lose his own sanity he never got around to taking the memories from Sam. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I still have trouble with this idea that he wouldn't have taken away the most painful, most terrifying thing of Lucifer's True Face, given it seems he can pick and choose which memories to erase, see: Lisa and Ben, the feds in s11, other random people he can erase memories but in this situation, he left behind this one really big one that still apparently affects Sam? That's IMO definitely a sign of a retcon.

I don't think he took away any of his memories. He as much as said he couldn't - he couldn't rebuild the wall, and the wall was the only way for those memories to be blocked. Even Death said they couldn't be taken away, only blocked. What he did (IMO) is take away the hallucinations - we saw Lucifer appear to him immediately upon his taking them from Sam - and that allowed Sam to begin to heal. As for the 'true face', I don't think that was there to begin with - pure retcon, IMO.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I still have trouble with this idea that he wouldn't have taken away the most painful, most terrifying thing of Lucifer's True Face, given it seems he can pick and choose which memories to erase, see: Lisa and Ben, the feds in s11, other random people he can erase memories but in this situation, he left behind this one really big one that still apparently affects Sam? That's IMO definitely a sign of a retcon.

That's a good point. But, as I've said a million times, that's the problem with Cas.  If they made him consistently be able to do everything, there would be no suspense, danger and everything would be hunky dory at the end of every episode.  Why not erase Sam and Dean's memories of Hell?  Why not have Sam and Dean bring Charlie to Cas to bring her back. I mean they didn't even attempt that, and we know that angels could still resurrect after the fall.  I'm not bothered by this with Kevin because dean didn't know that Cas had any grace back at that point.  Why couldn't he cure Amelia? It couldn't be just because it was angel damage because Gadreel brought him back after he had been stabbed by an angel blade. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think he took away any of his memories. He as much as said he couldn't - he couldn't rebuild the wall, and the wall was the only way for those memories to be blocked. Even Death said they couldn't be taken away, only blocked. What he did (IMO) is take away the hallucinations - we saw Lucifer appear to him immediately upon his taking them from Sam - and that allowed Sam to begin to heal. As for the 'true face', I don't think that was there to begin with - pure retcon, IMO.

 

I thought he ook the pain, the burden, and at least some of it not all of his memories which were what was causing Sam to have the hallucinations in the first place.  I guess I don't see how he took away the hallucinations without taking away some of the memories too.  I'm confused by that.

But that entire part of Sam's SL confused me

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

 

I thought he ook the pain, the burden, and at least some of it not all of his memories which were what was causing Sam to have the hallucinations in the first place.  I guess I don't see how he took away the hallucinations without taking away some of the memories too.  I'm confused by that.

But that entire part of Sam's SL confused me

My understanding of things is that Sam was not suffering from typical PTSD. He was suffering from literal damage inflicted on his soul. What Death managed to do was seal off the damage with a wall and keep the damage from further spreading. However, when Castiel broke the wall that damage began to grew and it manifested in Sam seeing false hallucinations of Lucifer. What Castiel did was transfer that soul damage from Sam to himself, which allowed the damage inflicted on the soul to begin healing naturally. Sam would then have had PTSD similar to Dean or any other human who has been through traumatic events. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I thought he ook the pain, the burden, and at least some of it not all of his memories which were what was causing Sam to have the hallucinations in the first place.  I guess I don't see how he took away the hallucinations without taking away some of the memories too.  I'm confused by that.

But that entire part of Sam's SL confused me

Because I don't think Sam's memories were the problem. He wasn't reliving being tortured in the cage - I think we saw one 'flashback' to fire? He was being tortured by hallucinations of Lucifer taunting him with the most mundane things, annoying him to death, and in the end, refusing to let him sleep. That's what was killing him - sleep deprivation. When Cas took on the hallucinations, that stopped, thus 'getting him back on his feet'. That's my take on it anyway.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's a good point. But, as I've said a million times, that's the problem with Cas.  If they made him consistently be able to do everything, there would be no suspense, danger and everything would be hunky dory at the end of every episode.  Why not erase Sam and Dean's memories of Hell?  Why not have Sam and Dean bring Charlie to Cas to bring her back. I mean they didn't even attempt that, and we know that angels could still resurrect after the fall.  I'm not bothered by this with Kevin because dean didn't know that Cas had any grace back at that point.  Why couldn't he cure Amelia? It couldn't be just because it was angel damage because Gadreel brought him back after he had been stabbed by an angel blade. 

I'm guessing for Dean he wouldn't want those memories erased. I think he uses that to remind him of when he tortured people. He might just be a masochist as well. Maybe the same for Sam. I don't know.

I don't think Cas was ever able to resurrect a human in s10 because he wasn't fully powered up until angel heart. And by then the Grigori was more powerful than Cas, Dean and Sam combined. I'm guessing Amelia was just too badly injured to be healed by a beaten up Cas? I don't know that never made sense to me other than to advance Claire's back story to get her to Jody's.  Heck they might have been setting up Wayward Daughters all the way back then.

Cas couldn't teleport to where Dean and Sam were with Charlie. So he probably couldn't have gotten there in time to heal her anyway. Plus he had to stay behind to make sure Rowena didn't run off the rails.  See also: Plot Contrivance.

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

My understanding of things is that Sam was not suffering from typical PTSD. He was suffering from literal damage inflicted on his soul. What Death managed to do was seal off the damage with a wall and keep the damage from further spreading. However, when Castiel broke the wall that damage began to grew and it manifested in Sam seeing false hallucinations of Lucifer. What Castiel did was transfer that soul damage from Sam to himself, which allowed the damage inflicted on the soul to begin healing naturally. Sam would then have had PTSD similar to Dean or any other human who has been through traumatic events. 

Okay, I see what you and Gonzosgirlll are saying. I still don't see the True Face thing being a factor though. 

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay, I see what you and Gonzosgirlll are saying. I still don't see the True Face thing being a factor though. 

I don't either.

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay, I see what you and Gonzosgirlll are saying. I still don't see the True Face thing being a factor though. 

I think it's just meant to be a bad memory the two share! It's a pretty fresh thing for Rowena so her PTSD is at the surface. Arguably Sam had enough happening at the time (sleep deprivation from Hallucifer) for that to have been a primary concern. 

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas couldn't teleport to where Dean and Sam were with Charlie. So he probably couldn't have gotten there in time to heal her anyway. Plus he had to stay behind to make sure Rowena didn't run off the rails.  See also: Plot Contrivance.

He resurrected Bobby quite a while after he died in Swan Song.  At least, it seems that way. I'm not sure there's a time limit. But, anyway, my point was they didn't even try.  They call Cas, he comes halfway, they go halfway to him.  How far away could Charlie have possibly been?

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

He resurrected Bobby quite a while after he died in Swan Song.  At least, it seems that way. I'm not sure there's a time limit. But, anyway, my point was they didn't even try.  They call Cas, he comes halfway, they go halfway to him.  How far away could Charlie have possibly been?

I don't know how much time passed. But Cas was a fully powered angel rebuilt brand new by God in Swan Song. So he had more healing powers, the ability to teleport and smite others.  I had the impression it wasn't very long between his destruction and resurrection and healing Bobby and Dean.

 I don't know how far they had to drive to get from wherever Cas was with Rowena to Charlies' hotel room. He was tasked with making sure Rowena didn't pull any shenanigans so it wasn't likely for him to leave her alone nor take her out of her chains and risk her doing something to him. That's the only explanation I have for that one. LOL

[AwesomO4000]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think he took away any of his memories. He as much as said he couldn't - he couldn't rebuild the wall, and the wall was the only way for those memories to be blocked. Even Death said they couldn't be taken away, only blocked. What he did (IMO) is take away the hallucinations - we saw Lucifer appear to him immediately upon his taking them from Sam - and that allowed Sam to begin to heal.

I agree, and for Castiel, the Lucifer hallucinations faded later, because as Castiel explained (I don't remember which episode, though), seeing Lucifer was residual from Sam's manifestation of the issue. Castiel's issues turned into something else eventually.

From the "Various and Sundry Villains" thread:

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

--Lucifer killed Rowena in s11 after getting her help to get him out of the cage. But it was never said that he showed his true face to her before breaking her neck then. If it was a concept why not have it come up in s11 when Rowena came back and wanted to kill Lucifer?

This one I think I have a believable answer to: because Crowley was there, and Lucifer also wanted to be stealthy about it. Rowena is a witch and Crowley's mother. If Lucifer didn't act quickly and stealthily, maybe they could've worked together to do something to stop him. I don't know, for me, with stealthy, subtle is better, and showing his true face wouldn't have been subtle. Besides Rowena had been helpful to Lucifer at that point, so he had no reason to be angry with her or wish her ill. He just wanted her dead for purely practical reasons that time. The second time he might've been pissed off that she hadn't stayed dead.

As for Sam, I don't know. Maybe whatever Castiel did is slowly wearing off? I don't think he took away Sam's memories - we saw them, I think, in "Man's Best Friend..." - but maybe whatever Castiel did to mute them isn't working as well anymore, but Sam is seeing it as his gaps in his coping skills. Or maybe something different is happening in Sam's life to trigger them, because this depression and pessimism seems to be new, also.

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought he ook the pain, the burden, and at least some of it not all of his memories which were what was causing Sam to have the hallucinations in the first place.  I guess I don't see how he took away the hallucinations without taking away some of the memories too.  I'm confused by that.

But that entire part of Sam's SL confused me

This is just my interpretation, but I looked at Sam's hallucinations as Sam trying to cope with his mental and maybe physical (as @Wayward Son proposed) damage. As Sam explained to Bobby "at least my crazy is all under one umbrella." For me, like Sam sometimes does (and someone on this board described this somewhere very well. Maybe SueB, Ditty, or Demented?) he compartmentalized it and tried to ignore it. I thought it was interesting that in "Repo Man"* when Sam seemed to acknowledge and interact with his hallucinations, that's when things really started going down hill for him. It was interesting to me that whatever part of Sam the hallucinations represented was the part that had the information and the skills to solve the case, and in order to solve the case, Sam had to stop ignoring it. But when he did that, maybe the compartmentalization failed and whatever coping he was using to wall away the trauma didn't work anymore. As hallucination Lucifer said "you let me in, Buddy!" and that was the end of that for Sam... the damage flooded in and Sam couldn't control it anymore.

Maybe it was the psychic damage and whatever the trigger was that caused the floodgates to open that Castiel took away for Sam. But I think that the memories are still there.

*(I think "Repo Man" is an underrated episode.)

But as for this "true face" thing, I'm not sure what to think about that yet. I'm going to see what becomes of it over the next few episodes - if it even comes up again - before I decide on that.

[gonzosgirrl]

They alluded to Sam still having his memories in 12x01, when he scoffed at Lady-Glad-Shes-Dead's torture after having done time with Lucifer.

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think it's just meant to be a bad memory the two share! It's a pretty fresh thing for Rowena so her PTSD is at the surface. Arguably Sam had enough happening at the time (sleep deprivation from Hallucifer) for that to have been a primary concern. 

To me, a bad memory for Sam is seeing Jessica on the ceiling burning. This is being framed as something so terrible that Sam doesn't sleep at night and that he can't explain it to Dean, who has seen some pretty horrible things himself in Hell, and probably would understand it more than Sam thinks or fears, possibly. He told Sam about his own torture at Alastair's hands, and that he tortured others. Hell, Sam saw the handiwork of Dean's torturing before he killed Alastair.  So to me the fact that he doesn't want to tell Dean about it, or thinks he wouldn't understand, IMO is framing this as the ultimate, super scary mind breaking, soul shaking thing that Sam has been haunting Sam for 7 years assuming this is from s5.  IMO, Dean's drinking is his way of pushing away his Hell memories but Dean also was able to face Alastair and get some retribution so maybe that took the edge off some of Dean's suffering along with the alcoholism LOL.

Retcon isn't a dirty word. It's a valid writing device when it's done well.  I don't think this show does retcons that well in general. I think this would be a reasonable one if they only make it effective from s11 to now. IMO, if they make that it's been going on for 7 years and saving the world made Sam too busy to deal with it..that's a bad retcon IMO. 

That's just some contrived writing IMO, for reasons....yet to be revealed... I guess.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They alluded to Sam still having his memories in 12x01, when he scoffed at Lady-Glad-Shes-Dead's torture after having done time with Lucifer.

I thought that was just him telling her in general, yes I survived Lucifer's torments even if he doesn't remember them specifically or in great detail.

But fair enough if Sam has kept all of his Hell memories in Full and he's just found some way to push all of it down without alcohol, drugs, or whatever, fair enough. And now he can't.  For...reasons.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think he took away any of his memories. He as much as said he couldn't - he couldn't rebuild the wall, and the wall was the only way for those memories to be blocked. Even Death said they couldn't be taken away, only blocked. What he did (IMO) is take away the hallucinations - we saw Lucifer appear to him immediately upon his taking them from Sam - and that allowed Sam to begin to heal. As for the 'true face', I don't think that was there to begin with - pure retcon, IMO.

I'm kind of in between with this--no, I don't think he took away the memories (for one thing, Sam can still reference them); but if all he took were the hallucinations, Sam would still be suffering the " terrible psychic pain" Cas originally warned Dean about.  I think *that's* what Cas shifted--the pain (which was triggering the hallucinations, IMO).  Cas sort of "cut" the connection between the memories and the body's physical/emotional reaction to them--the panic, pain, hallucinations, nightmares, etc.)  so that Sam can remember events as from a distance, while still keeping his logical brain in control.   (Neuroscientists are working on that with PTSD patients now.)  

Personally, I think if Sam was still connected so viscerally to those traumatic memories we would have seen something--flashbacks, nightmares (we've seen Dean having his share over the last few years...) or even having him using coping mechanisms, like extreme exercise or throwing himself into work.  And while he's done all of that at various times over the past few years, it was always in relation to a particular puzzle they were trying to work on together, and I didn't see any of it as Sam merely trying to distract himself (and it usually stopped when the crisis was over--or Dean would have called him on it, even teasingly).  So I call bull on the latest retcon that Sam's been living with all that trauma for all these years without Dean having an inkling.  Nope.  Not even as messed up as Dean himself has been.  

Edited February 7, 2018 by ahrtee
Can't spell. :)

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

  So I call bull on the latest retcon that Sam's been living with all that trauma for all these years without Dean having an inkling.  Nope.  Not even as messed up as Dean himself has been.  

I didn't even consider this angle of the events. Well that really makes it so much worse.

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They alluded to Sam still having his memories in 12x01, when he scoffed at Lady-Glad-Shes-Dead's torture after having done time with Lucifer.

It also sounded like when Sam was talking to Sully about maybe going back to the cage, and that he didn't want to go, because it would be hard (and scary) that Sam had some sort of reference in mind for what he was saying rather than it being just an abstract concept.

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Cas sort of "cut" the connection between the memories and the body's physical/emotional reaction to them--the panic, pain, hallucinations, nightmares, etc.)  so that Sam can remember events as from a distance, while still keeping his logical brain in control.   (Neuroscientists are working on that with PTDS patients now.)  

This is sort of what I was trying to say earlier, but you said here better. That the memories were still there, but Castiel muted them somehow.

But Sam's been acting weird lately - with the depression and pessimism - so maybe something has happened that's affecting whatever Castiel did to help him, or it's been happening for a while and he's just not been realizing that's what it is and maybe now it's reached a tipping point?

I'll be impressed if the show has enough foresight to go with something like that, but I'm not going to get my hopes up.

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It also sounded like when Sam was talking to Sully about maybe going back to the cage, and that he didn't want to go, because it would be hard (and scary) that Sam had some sort of reference in mind for what he was saying rather than it being just an abstract concept.

This is another aspect that bugs me. Sam addressed his fear of Satan directly to his face and he over came it, said no and that was a victory. So much so that apparently he was okay with working with him to fight Amara.The fact that Lucifer is out of the Cage is not on anyone other than Rowena and Crowley. 

So why would this True Face be a thing now ?

Edited February 7, 2018 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

So I call bull on the latest retcon that Sam's been living with all that trauma for all these years without Dean having an inkling.  Nope.  Not even as messed up as Dean himself has been.  

I think Sam could tell Rowena, honestly, that he is still haunted by the memory of Lucifer's true face without that necessarily manifesting itself in visible trauma, or even implying that Sam is always or even frequently thinking about it. 

Humans are good at repressing awareness of painful things. Not to get too depressing, but the human condition is inherently painful. If we walked around all day thinking about how we were going to die someday, we couldn't function. I'm someone who is terrified of death, and can honestly say the thought of life being finite, with no guarantee of an afterlife in which I am meaningfully myself, is something that causes me grief and anxiety...but on a day to day basis, I'm not thinking about it, and in fact, when those thoughts do intrude, I have coping mechanisms like watching reruns of SPN to distract myself. 

Similarly, people who have lost loved ones prematurely often say that they think of that person every day. That doesn't mean they can't go on to be functional and even happy people while negotiating their grief.

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I think it's just meant to be a bad memory the two share! It's a pretty fresh thing for Rowena so her PTSD is at the surface. 

That's been my take too.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This is being framed as something so terrible that Sam doesn't sleep at night and that he can't explain it to Dean, who has seen some pretty horrible things himself in Hell, and probably would understand it more than Sam thinks or fears, possibly.

I don't think it was framed that Lucifer's true face is still what's keeping Sam up at night; he just could remember a time when it did and relate to Rowena's fear on that level. Nor do I think it was framed that he couldn't explain it to Dean, just that he never did. I mean, really, when you think about it, I'm not sure when Sam would've really had a chance to talk with Dean about his time in Hell. He came back soulless, then had a wall that blocked those memories, then started hallucinating and just was getting back to normal when Dean ended up in Purgatory and they're separated for a year. Then he spends the next couple years bickering with Dean and then another couple trying to save Dean from the MoC. By the time they get back on the same page it's literally been years since those memories were keeping him up at night. The talk and/or discussion just never happened was my take on the conversation. I think the memory is still there, but he's already learned how to cope with it. 

IMO, what's keeping Sam in a funk right now is his feeling helpless to save Mary and Jack and, his guilt for getting Kaia killed. I'm sure Lucifer still scares Sam on some level, but I don't think it's that same fear Rowena is currently experiencing because her trauma is so recent and raw.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think it was framed that Lucifer's true face is still what's keeping Sam up at night; he just could remember a time when it did and relate to Rowena's fear on that level. Nor do I think it was framed that he couldn't explain it to Dean, just that he never did. I mean, really, when you think about it, I'm not sure when Sam would've really had a chance to talk with Dean about his time in Hell. He came back soulless, then had a wall that blocked those memories, then started hallucinating and just was getting back to normal when Dean ended up in Purgatory and they're separated for a year. Then he spends the next couple years bickering with Dean and then another couple trying to save Dean from the MoC. By the time they get back on the same page it's literally been years since those memories were keeping him up at night. The talk and/or discussion just never happened was my take on the conversation. I think the memory is still there, but he's already learned how to cope with i

Except Sam said, literally in the episode, "It still keeps me up at night". Present tense. And the previous episode Sam was shown not sleeping for hours. I think this is absolutely meant to either be an ongoing issue for 7 years, or at minimum a renewed issue for him, that's coming back out.

 

Quote

ve seen it, too, what he really looks like behind -- behind whatever vessel.

It Yeah, still keeps me up at night.

How do you deal with it?

I guess I don't deal with it. Not really. I mean, I I pushed it down and, um the -- the world kept almost ending, so I-I keep pushing it down, and I don't know. I I don't really talk about it, not even with Dean. I mean, I-I-I could. You know, he'd -- he'd listen, but That's not something I really know how to share.

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e12

Edited February 8, 2018 by catrox14

[companionenvy]

I do agree that the idea that Lucifer still keeps Sam up at night doesn't gel with his ability to play family therapist to Chuck and Luci in S11. On the other hand, it is consistent with his obvious dread of returning to the Cage earlier in that season. So on balance, I'd say this just makes the Lucifer as sullen teen schtick that they were pulling at the end of S11 more egregious in retrospect. I recall that a lot of us remarked on it as lousy writing at the time; this just compounds it. Lucifer still featuring in Sam's nightmares, and serving as the thing that keeps him up in those quiet moments where you can't turn your brain off, is, IMO, the better and subtler depiction of trauma, assuming that you don't think (as I don't) that Cas removed all of Sam's hell memories. 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I do agree that the idea that Lucifer still keeps Sam up at night doesn't gel with his ability to play family therapist to Chuck and Luci in S11. On the other hand, it is consistent with his obvious dread of returning to the Cage earlier in that season.

I would think Sam would just have dread to see Lucifer again no matter what. He wouldn't have needed to see his true face to dread it. Dean dreaded seeing Alastair again even if he was getting to torture him. He dreaded it because of what i was going to do to him on many levels.  So to me, even though s11 is the best time for this "True Face Trauma" (TFT tm me) to take root again, it still doesn't make much sense. JMHO

[Katy M]

In seasons 1 and 2, Azazel was the big bad.  Besides a couple of shadowy images, we saw him in 4 episodes.

LIllith was the big bad in Seasons 3 and 4.  We saw her in 5 episodes and one of those was a figment of Dean's imagination.

Lucifeer was the big bad in season 5 and we saw him in 6 episodes.

Raphael and Eve were the big bads in season 6 and we saw them in 4 and 3 episodes, respectively.

We saw Dick in 6 episodes.

We saw Abaddon in 9 (?) episodes over 2 seasons and 2 of those were strictly in the past.

So, besides Crowley, and now Lucifer, the big bads are usually kept in the background, being menacing unseen.  And I think that worked.  The problem with Lucifer is that he has become too common.  That, and this show doesn't really know how to do all-powerful in a convincing way.  Plus, since Sam and dean are only human, if they come up against all-powerful before they find a way to defeat it, they're toast.  

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

In seasons 1 and 2, Azazel was the big bad.  Besides a couple of shadowy images, we saw him in 4 episodes.

LIllith was the big bad in Seasons 3 and 4.  We saw her in 5 episodes and one of those was a figment of Dean's imagination.

Lucifeer was the big bad in season 5 and we saw him in 6 episodes.

Raphael and Eve were the big bads in season 6 and we saw them in 4 and 3 episodes, respectively.

We saw Dick in 6 episodes.

We saw Abaddon in 9 (?) episodes over 2 seasons and 2 of those were strictly in the past.

So, besides Crowley, and now Lucifer, the big bads are usually kept in the background, being menacing unseen.  And I think that worked.  The problem with Lucifer is that he has become too common.  That, and this show doesn't really know how to do all-powerful in a convincing way.  Plus, since Sam and dean are only human, if they come up against all-powerful before they find a way to defeat it, they're toast.  

I've always said the show never seemed to learn their lesson of why Yellow Eyes was one of the scarier villains the show ever had. It's not because he was so powerful he was scary, but that we still, even to this day, know so little about him. And, almost everything we do know was learned after his death: his true name; his plans; what he actually was were all learned long after he died. Once the villains start monologuing and telling us their sad tale of woe over and over again they loose that scary factor and basically just become cartoons to a certain degree.  

Edited February 9, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

Taken from Spoilers thread because it's about my personal preferences and not at all spoilery :)

 

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think you like anyone more than Dean LOLOL. Just curious, would you be happy if the show killed off Dean? Not picking on you. I don't mean do you think the show would survive without Dean but whether you personally would be happy for Dean to be gone?

Honestly, I'd neither be super happy or mournful if they were to write Dean off. I probably come off as less tolerant of him than I actually am since a lot of the time the scenes where I find him most intolerable are the most often discussed. However, for a large portion of the time I'm happy to just tolerate his presence without it affecting me for good and ill and there's even a rare occasion where I might even find him interesting. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

After 13 years, I think this was inevitable.  There isn't much left to discover about Sam and Dean, either.  We know who they are, so the stories come from how they react to the world(s) and characters around them.  Cas is much the same.  His story has also been told, so now it's about where they go from here.  I personally don't think that revisiting where they've been is all that exciting.  I don't want or need to revisit either brothers time in Hell.  It's part of who they are, but it shouldn't be all that they are.  If they keep dragging us back, whether by suddenly remembering that Dean went to Hell, and his blood is now magic somehow, or how Sam evidently hasn't slept in 8 years because he saw Lucifer's "true face", I'm going to feel cheated.  I personally want them to move forward.  If I were Sam or Dean, I'd have been ready to throw the towel in a long time ago.  They apparently weren't chosen to protect the earth, they were chosen to fight the same damn battle over and over and over again.  

And this is where we completely part company.  I don't accept that 13 years is the limit on what we can learn about the boys and Castiel.

To me this show is much more than a fun romp of monster hunting.  Do I need them to be miserable unhappy human beings all the time? Of course not.  I do need them to be treated like the rich characters they are.

Dean's Hell time has never been adequately addressed. Sam's Hell time has been touched upon but not in a way that necessarily reflects the affect on him. But it seems we are going to get more but who knows. I doubt it.

MO, when you put characters through literal Hell, one becomes a demon and the other was soulless and it's just glossed over like nothing happened to me that's bad storytelling. I want to know how they feel about their Hell time beyond "I could never make you understand" which oddly both have now been able to say.  Maybe that's the shows way of telling us that they never intend to go further but who knows.

How did Dean feel about being a demon?  What did he get up to as a demon that we don't know about yet. There is a lot of room for that. What about people Dean harmed as a demon, or that Dean may have turned into demons when he was in Hell who come back seeking vengeance on Dean for what he did to them. Would it be tragic and hurtful? YES! Maybe Dean could try to help those he harmed. That's a couple of episodes right there! What about more people that were affected by Soulless Sam? They did that story but if the show is going to write reruns, I'd rather they use TFW past to directly talk about TFW than co-opt SL and give them to other characters.

They introduced the Men of Letters and then instead of exploring that with maybe the boys or at least Sam trying to restart the Men of Letters they brought in the stupid BMOL 3 years later for what? Then barely tied Sam to it at all and when they did it was in kind of a sketchy way.

Dean has issues with John IMO. Folks don't need to agree with me but IMO Dean needs a shot to have words with John like he did with Mary. Sam deserves a chance to have some words with Mary. But maybe they think that's dealt with.

I would love to see Dean Sam and Cas get another Baby like episode they spend hours just talking about their lives. I would watch that all damn day.

They had a chance to keep Charlie around and expand their family but they kill her off. They needed to show them grieving her, not just Dean going sideways and killing under the Mark of Cain.

 Castiel has been int he boys life for 10 years which is a blip for a  millenials old entity. We could have had more stories about Castiel's adventures in the past just like we got with Lily Sunder. I would have rather watched 5 episodes of Castiel's past coming back than 5 episodes of freaking  Lucifer. 

wouldn't mind at all if Dean had become Death for a half season.

Sure they have to write stories for the future but they are writing stories about everyone around them now. Not about them. I am holding out hope that Dean's talk with Billie in 13.5 will have something meaningful for him. Like if they open a rift, she comes down and gives him the riot act which she already should have TBH with WS and the Bad Place, but I digress.

I would rather have Lucifer come back to exact revenge on Dean, Sam and Cas, directly than this stupid Jack SL. Would it be a do over? Yes but at least it would have been about them and not Lucifer's relationship with Chuck.

Thus far that AU isn't even about Sam and Dean because they weren't born there. It's a plot device to bring back other characters and barely have them interact with the boys.

So for me there is so much more to be told about The Winchesters and Castiel.  JMHO. 

Yes I know it's all complicated by J2 wanting time off but surely they can make the stories ABOUT J2 instead of using J2 to create everything else. 

[MysteryGuest]

I don't disagree with much of what you're saying.  I've already mentioned how I wanted them to explore the whole Men of Letters thing, rather than what they've been doing.  And we've all talked frequently about wanting some "day in the life" episodes.  Baby is one of my all-time favorite episodes, and it's specifically because of just the normal brother conversations they had.  I loved that.  I don't in any way think that Sam or Dean's lives are boring, but I'm tired of rehashing the same old stuff.  

For a normal person, spending any time in Hell and living to tell about it would be pretty much the highlight (or lowlight) of their life.  But for these guys, it's just one incident among many horrific things they've had to endure.  But I would think that being able to trade barbs with Lucifer, having the King of Hell as a frenemy, and having God hang out in the bunker making pancakes would actually temper some of the horror of those experiences.  Sam and Dean have seen behind the curtain of both Heaven and Hell.  There's no mystery there, IMO, just dysfunctional angels and demons who are almost interchangeable.  

But the majority of the world knows nothing about angels, demons and monsters, and that's what Sam and Dean have been left in charge of...protecting everyone else from the horrendous things they've experienced.  That's where the show could still move forward in an interesting way, IMO, and yes, let us see how these situations affect Sam, Dean and Cas.  

Maybe it's because of situations in my own family, and the futility of trying to change the past that I have no interest or need in seeing Dean rehash his childhood with his father.  He's almost 40 years old, and his father did the best he could under completely unimaginable circumstances.  Did he make mistakes that had life-altering effects on his children...sure, but then most parents do.  But John loved his sons and he wasn't malicious in his treatment of them, so at some point, you just need to move on.  I personally think they've both done that, and I'm happy about that.  They have enough on their plates without continuing to drag that baggage along with them.  

So we can agree on some things and disagree on others, and that's ok.  It's what makes this board interesting.

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Maybe it's because of situations in my own family, and the futility of trying to change the past that I have no interest or need in seeing Dean rehash his childhood with his father.  He's almost 40 years old, and his father did the best he could under completely unimaginable circumstances.  Did he make mistakes that had life-altering effects on his children...sure, but then most parents do.  But John loved his sons and he wasn't malicious in his treatment of them, so at some point, you just need to move on.  I personally think they've both done that, and I'm happy about that.  They have enough on their plates without continuing to drag that baggage along with them.  

It's not about trying to change the past, but help them not live in trauma forever.

Dean dreams about Mary burning up on the ceiling. That was made canon in 13.01. Dean is clearly an alcoholic and he has some anger issues. I don't want Dean to be completely different but if the show isn't going to end with the boys dying in battle, I don't want Dean to be dead by untreated PTSD, and by untreated I mean untalked about, not that Dean would go to therapy). It could free him of some that burden, which causes him to make terrible choices.

I mean look at him putting a gun in Kaia's face. IMO that happened because he thought about his time in Hell again in Scorpion and the Frog and then was really triggered when he saw Mary in the Cage in the AU. They filmed it in a way that IMO implied that Dean was reeling and he was almost dissociated in that moment.  I don't think it was solely out of guilt but because he remembered exactly what it was like to be tortured, that made him take that extreme actions. 

Of course, once they got out of the Bad Place he seemed to not give Mary a second thought which WTF? Sidebar: I wonder could we be dealing doppelganger versions of the boys after they went to the Bad Place? Just a thought. That might explain why Sam is rather on edge now and why Dean is weirdly Zen about Mary when he was so desperate to save her before.  Or it's just shitty writing. I don't know what to think of it right now.

I never said John didn't love his sons, I think he did. Even if John wasn't being malicious, which I think is debatable, he still harmed them greatly in his attempts to protect them and get his own vengeance. I also think it's wholly unfair storytelling to put all the blame on Mary. She didn't put the guns into John's hands. And she didn't make John leave Dean alone to take care of Sam when he was only 9. Or leave him the burden of killing Sam if he can't save him in s2. Nor made John tell Sam to never come back if he left. Nor made John not find some way to contact his dying son. John's choices are not Mary's responsibility even if it's her fault he was in that position. She wasn't whispering in his ear to hunt that demon and do what he did after she was dead. Although, now that I've said that I wouldn't put it past Dabb to throw that in the mix in a retcon just to really let John off the hook. LOL

From a dramatic perspective I think it would offer some amazing acting opportunities for both Jensen and Jared. If I can't have them be the center of the story, they could at least get some meaty scenes.

Edited February 11, 2018 by catrox14

[companionenvy]

Catrox, I agree with so much of your second to last post. There are so many interesting, meaty plots the writers could take on if they had the guts. Your ideas about Dean encountering someone he turned in Hell and the boys restarting the MoL in a better way are particularly good.

At its best, this show took risks. It wasn't afraid to introduce zany concepts like the French Mistake-verse or the in-universe SPN fandom. It turned the "Chosen One" arc on its head by making Sam the chosen one of the dark side. It vastly expanded its scope and ambition with the introduction of the angels plotline (which was great for its first few seasons, IMO - because it was new, and hadn't outlived its usefulness or narrative interest). 

Today, the show flirts with game-changers, but generally winds up reverting to more of the same. My post in the episode thread for this week delves into this in more depth - in short, I think the introduction of AU-worlds, which could have been a creative shot in the arm to the show, wound up petering out into the laziest storytelling possible.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I mean look at him putting a gun in Kaia's face. IMO that happened because he thought about his time in Hell again in Scorpion and the Frog and then was really triggered when he saw Mary in the Cage in the AU. They filmed it in a way that IMO implied that Dean was reeling and he was almost dissociated in that moment.  I don't think it was solely out of guilt but because he remembered exactly what it was like to be tortured, that made him take that extreme actions. 

Of course, once they got out of the Bad Place he seemed to not give Mary a second thought which WTF? Sidebar:

I think the show has gotten very lazy with its structure of mytharc/MOTW. Yes, it makes it more accessible than tightly-plotted shows where you get lost if you miss an episode. But that doesn`t mean that certain throughlines shouldn`t be referenced. You can`t have a character go off the reservation in one episode because of reason X and be all "ladida" for the next five episodes even though reason X is still in place. 

They have done that through all of their "apocalypses". Lucifer has risen. The Leviathans have come. The angels have fallen. The Darkness has risen. Well, that only ever mattered in episodes they wanted to reference it, otherwise it was "oh well, nothing going on, case of the week". 

That would be like if in the middle of a movie like Independence Day we follow a random family trough their day because for them nothing has changed even though freaking aliens have just declared war on the whole planet. There are some things you set-up,  you can`t just ignore for convenient swaths of time afterwards. And yet they do it all the time. 

They introduce plots for arc-shows - and I mean shows where every single episode is part of that arc and deals with it - and yet handle them in their semi-anthology fashion. 

IMO that`s why Season 4 worked the best for me in terms of handling of the arc. It was big but not so big yet that it overpowered everything - I mean, Lucifer was in danger of rising but had not yet done so. And the 66 seals thing was such that you could do little anthology episodes to your heart`s content and still go "psych, that was actually a seal" at the end.   

[catrox14]

I've been re-watching s11 and I actually liked the 'bar" angel and "Bar Demon" that were trying beat Amara.

I still worry that Bar Demon never knew what happened to Bar Angel :(

Also, I super ship Samwena. I can't help it. As much as I hated Oh Brother Where Art Thou for Dean/Amara reasons I loved the dynamic between Sam and Rowena. I mean yes, Sam was a numbnut for going with her and not waiting for Dean but they definitely spark.

And I will admit that out of context of the entirety of s11, it's an interesting table setting episode. But ugh this grossness non con shit between Dean and Amara just skeeves me out. 

[catrox14]

I've been re-watching s11 and honestly this shift to Sam being terrified of Lucifer's True Face in s13, just does not comport at all with his behavior and attitude in s11. Yes, he was scared but it he faced him. I would think if he had that profound terror it would have really messed him up then. 

Also, Amara ate all those souls. Did she ever give them back? I know Donatello seems to be without his. I mean those poor people who died because she took their souls and they did nutty things along the way, like Len and the Chocolate Sex Orgasm chick. It really bugs me that they never wrote it for Dean to demand that she give them their souls back before departing with Chuck.  PLOT HOLES RUN AMOK.  

Also, wouldn't Billie want to know where those souls are? Wouldn't Billie want a word with Amara since Death was conveniently off the table during Amara's soul raiding?

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It really bugs me that they never wrote it for Dean to demand that she give them their souls back before departing with Chuck. 

Can you give back souls you've eaten?  Can you demand things from someone who just decided to abort her "destroy the world" plan.  I wouldn't really call that a  plot hole.  I actually like it, on a show like this, when things aren't wrapped up neat and tidy, because that's life.  Sam and Dean are fighting beings stronger than them (except when they aren't), so it's unrealistic to expect a win in every facet.  But, then again, I'm one of the few people who are OK with Adam being stuck in the cage, so I probably should have posted this in UO.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Can you give back souls you've eaten?  Can you demand things from someone who just decided to abort her "destroy the world" plan.  I wouldn't really call that a  plot hole.  I actually like it, on a show like this, when things aren't wrapped up neat and tidy, because that's life.  Sam and Dean are fighting beings stronger than them (except when they aren't), so it's unrealistic to expect a win in every facet.  But, then again, I'm one of the few people who are OK with Adam being stuck in the cage, so I probably should have posted this in UO

Why couldn't she? She's God-dess.  She brought back Mary who's soul was supposedly burned up when she sacrificed herself to kill the poltergeist.  Amara literally said "They will live in me forever". Unless she was using them for her own power, she should be able to give them back.  I'm saying once she backed down and reconciled with Chuck and after Chuck took the souls out of Dean, he could have said, 'Hey, can you give back those souls you took to their rightful humans". My point is that Amara is a God. She can pretty much do what she wants. But for the sake of argument, even if she like "couldn't" as in not able to do so for reasons, Chuck was there, he could have gotten them out of her.  So to me it is a plot hole. It's never been mentioned ever again.

Adam isn't a plot hole because it's been mentioned basically every season that he's still in the Cage. So it's known where he is and it's a choice they are making to leave him there.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Why couldn't she? She's God-dess.  She brought back Mary who's soul was supposedly burned up when she sacrificed herself to kill the poltergeist.  Amara literally said "They will live in me forever". Unless she was using them for her own power, she should be able to give them back.  I'm saying once she backed down and reconciled with Chuck and after Chuck took the souls out of Dean, he could have said, 'Hey, can you give back those souls you took to their rightful humans". My point is that Amara is a God. She can pretty much do what she wants. But for the sake of argument, even if she like "couldn't" as in not able to do so for reasons, Chuck was there, he could have gotten them out of her.  So to me it is a plot hole. It's never been mentioned ever again.

Adam isn't a plot hole because it's been mentioned basically every season that he's still in the Cage. So it's known where he is and it's a choice they are making to leave him there.

Mary's soul wasn't eaten, so I don't think that's a comparison.  We don't know if once souls have been consumed for nutritional purposes if they can be taken out.  She may have digested them and turned them into a different sort of energy, but no longer the individual souls.  Do we have any other examples of a creature consuming souls and the soul remaining intact?  Even the soul eater in Safe House seemed to just be storing them in another dimension and taking energy from them, not actually taking them inside of himself.

But, as far as plot holes go, I would say this isn't one.  To me a plot hole is some that couldn't happen continuity wise, or makes no sense.  It doesn't seem odd to me that Dean (or Chuck) wouldn't make demands on someone who was planning on (and making good progress) destroying the world.  Plus, they have mentioned it, because Donatello said he was soulless.  I would actually have been happier had they just left him off the canvas.  As for all the other soulless victims out there, probably most of them are being taken care of by local law enforcement.  

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But, as far as plot holes go, I would say this isn't one.  To me a plot hole is some that couldn't happen continuity wise, or makes no sense.  It doesn't seem odd to me that Dean (or Chuck) wouldn't make demands on someone who was planning on (and making good progress) destroying the world.  Plus, they have mentioned it, because Donatello said he was soulless.  I would actually have been happier had they just left him off the canvas.  As for all the other soulless victims out there, probably most of them are being taken care of by local law enforcement.  

 I'm saying AFTER her and Chuck made up and she was no longer threatening the universe was the time to ask. She was no longer interested in destroying his creation. And now those poor people are either in jail, dead, still out murdering other people or some other awful thing because of her.

To me that was a pretty important plot point that should have been resolved either by telling us that she can't give them back and she feels terrible about it and will make up for it in some other, or that she will give them back. That's why to me it is a plot hole.  That actually could be a way to deal with Donatello and his suspectibility to Asmodeus. That might be why Assy can mess with him because he doesn't have his soul.

[Myrelle]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

After 13 years, I think this was inevitable.  There isn't much left to discover about Sam and Dean, either.  We know who they are, so the stories come from how they react to the world(s) and characters around them.  Cas is much the same.  His story has also been told, so now it's about where they go from here.  I personally don't think that revisiting where they've been is all that exciting.  I don't want or need to revisit either brothers time in Hell.  It's part of who they are, but it shouldn't be all that they are.  If they keep dragging us back, whether by suddenly remembering that Dean went to Hell, and his blood is now magic somehow, or how Sam evidently hasn't slept in 8 years because he saw Lucifer's "true face", I'm going to feel cheated.  I personally want them to move forward.  If I were Sam or Dean, I'd have been ready to throw the towel in a long time ago.  They apparently weren't chosen to protect the earth, they were chosen to fight the same damn battle over and over and over again.

Then why won't the writers do something with this, FCOL. That library that Dean was allowed a glimpse of in Advanced Thanatology is loaded with excellent storyline potential-just the library, itself, screams that the Winchesters are not your average human being-not by a long shot.

The writing under Dabb makes me feel as if he is simply not that interested in telling stories about the Winchesters wherein they are what and who the main story arc is about and centered around. He's more interested in making them a part of other characters' storylines-any other characters-be it Jack or Kelly or Lucifer or Michael or the Wayward girls or now, Sister Jo or Gabriel. Even one or two episode side characters have been gifted with more interesting storylines than either of the Winchesters have had under Dabb.

It's like Dabb and co. are all newbie writers who failed at writing 101, but they still landed professional writing jobs anyway.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

It's like Dabb and co. are all newbie writers who failed at writing 101, but they still landed professional writing jobs anyway.

They are just repurposing old story lines. They don't need to be creative. But I LOVE your idea about using that library of deaths. I really was hoping when Billie told Dean that it was up to him if he avoided death it would become a plot point. Like I would seriously watch a season wherein TFW tries to avoid their own deaths. I really would.

 

15 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

That library that Dean was allowed a glimpse of in Advanced Thanatology is loaded with excellent storyline potential-just the library, itself, screams that the Winchesters are not your average human being-not by a long shot.

[companionenvy]

My interpretation of Amara and the souls was that she fed off of them to power herself up, which suggests she wouldn't have been able to give them back. They are still part of her, to the extent that they made her what she is, but not in the sense of still intact and potentially returnable. 

I mean, I guess when you're dealing with a being of God level power anything is theoretically possible, but I think it would have been harder than taking an intact soul out of heaven (and yes, I agree that Mary being in heaven was a retcon, but I accept that "Home" was written before a lot of the rules of the verse had solidfied, and don't mind the change). In any case, I figured the souls were gone unless the show decided to tell us otherwise, and I suppose that Dean assumed they were gone too. 

Donatello's soullnessness being treated like a quirk is a different matter, but I'll save that for bitterness...