All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

It's similar to how there have been lots of demons trapped under devil's traps, burned with holy water, exorcized, etc. Somehow it was only female demons (Ruby and Meg) who were tied down and tortured while naked.

It's made worse because Sam was actually tied down in his hallucination but I guess he hallucinated that he didn't have to be naked for Alastair to torture him. Again, more of the IMO wrong headed thinking that making the women as vulnerable as possible would amp up the terror. For me that shit is just torture porn. Has any male character be they monster or human ever been even shirtless for a torture scene? Maybe one in s6 ? I can't remember.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Hard to say about anybody else, but I wouldn't think Jo would have been dragged to Hell because the hell hound didn't kill her all the way.  She died later, nowhere near (depending on your definition) of a Hell Hound. 

Jo had no other injuries other than what the Hellhound caused,. It just happened that Dean was able to carry Jo into the store that she wasn't ripped to shreds in the street. It was just a matter of how long it took for Jo to die from the wounds caused by the hellhound.

[Katy M]

45 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

It's similar to how there have been lots of demons trapped under devil's traps, burned with holy water, exorcized, etc. Somehow it was only female demons (Ruby and Meg) who were tied down and tortured while naked

That, I will def agree with.  Nobody needs to be naked to be tortured.  In fact, we could probably just do with a whole lot less, i.e. no, torture.

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Jo had no other injuries other than what the Hellhound caused,. It just happened that Dean was able to carry Jo into the store that she wasn't ripped to shreds in the street. It was just a matter of how long it took for Jo to die from the wounds caused by the hellhound.

I realize that.  What I'm saying is when she died, she was not literally in the jaws of a hell hound to be dragged anywhere.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

1) I don't see them as comparable at all.  Charlie wasn't a minor character. She was in 8 episodes, with major screen time in the those episodes, and the boys considered her family. Frank was in 6 episodes as an occasional ally who had one advisory chat with Dean.

2) Then she was sliced and diced and left in a bathtub for Dean and Sam to find all to further Dean's rage against the Stynes which wasn't necessary because Dean was going to kill them anyway after they broke into the bunker. 

1) I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I agree, but on the other hand... Charlie might have had more airtime and been closer to Sam and especially Dean, but she was usually in more "one-off" plots (except for her first and last appearances). Frank was very much tied into the mytharc, because he was connected with Dean and his quest to kill Dick Roman. Frank was Dean's "stability" - so to speak - in that regard. Sam had his own issues and thanks to his hallucinations was somewhat uncharacteristically drifting in season 7. He didn't have his usual goal and full steam ahead on one track go go go thing going on like he did many times previously - like all of seasons 1-5. Season 1 - find Dad and get revenge. Season 2 - figure out his destiny. Season 3 - save Dean. Season 4 - kill Lilith. Season 5- stop the apocalypse. Season 6 (post- soul) - find out about his past... until it nearly killed him. I think this is when Sam started getting some zen and perspective on this one track thing - for a while anyway (then came season 8 - 10). So as a result of Sam's zen, he was often encouraging Dean to put aside the Dick Roman obsession and do other things. Frank was Dean's go to to stay on track with his Dick Roman quest... Frank was someone with whom Dean could be obsessed together with and keep him focused / enthusiastic about his goal. Thinking about it, maybe without Frank - and especially Frank's little trick with surveillance (in which Frank did somewhat "live on," since the guys still use it in the present) - Dean wouldn't have been able to continue so long on his quest and maybe might've given up. As such I think Frank filled a similar - but maybe opposite - role than Charlie for Dean. While Charlie was a calming influence, I think Frank helped keep Dean "going"... maybe kept him from sinking even farther into depression by being that burst of frenetic, obsessive energy. I think Dean's checking in with Frank was a reflection of that. Even when the information wasn't always relevant, it was still a reminder to Dean of what his goal was... a touchstone. And important enough to Dean to get, that he would stop on the side of the road and / or go to some trouble - like using gross pay phones - so that he could have that connection. Hee, maybe Frank was Dean's equivalent to Sam's scar on his hand that he pushed on to keep himself focused.

But then again, I adored Frank, so I could be reading more into the character than was there.

2) I'm gonna take this over to the Bitch/Jerk thread just in case, because it's writer related and Dean story related... and just in case I - or if anyone wants to respond, he/she - wants to get bitter, we don't need to worry or hold back.

Edited September 29, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

Brought over from the Spoilers thread:

3 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

I think there's a difference between having a relationship/friendship or even sex and 'falling in love'.  Falling in love to me means that it trumps pretty much everything.  Although he was certainly interested in Madison, Sarah and Eileen, it was never enough to cause him to make any changes in his life at all.

Actually, I never thought Sam was in love with any of them (mostly because of my feeling, as mentioned in the other thread, about that seeming a tad superficial if he can fall in love so quickly, and with so many different women.  That doesn't seem to match the Sam they were building in season 1; and in later seasons it seems he's been going more into one-night stands than capital-R Romance).  But there seem to be an awful lot of fans who are insisting on their particular ship (and are either  mourning or angry about the deaths). 

I think relationships, if they have enough time and depth to go beyond the superficial phase of just good looks/things they have in common, are much more important than "just" falling in love, and IMO the only real relationship like that Sam had was with Jess (JMO: his time with Amelia was more shared need and seeing what they each wanted to see rather than anything real.)  Maybe Sarah and Eileen might have developed into something more in time, but (of course) the writers have never allowed anything like that. 

But IMO falling in love doesn't necessarily "trump everything," because in my experience, anyone who "gives up their life" (or even makes major changes) just to accommodate a lover usually winds up regretting/resenting sooner or later.  Note:  that doesn't include those who actually want or at least are ready to make major changes (ie, if Sam really wanted to settle down but needed something--or someone--to give him the opportunity.)  But IMO those who really *aren't* ready for big changes (yet) but feel pressured, even if it's just by the thought of "losing" someone, won't be happy in the long run.  Granted, that's just my warped POV (which might be why I never married!)    

And TBH, even though I'm a pretty rabid anti-shipper, there are a few relationships in the show that I think *might* have worked, given enough time--mostly those who already know what a hunter's life is like and can accommodate to it--people like Jody with Bobby, Eileen with Sam, and maybe even Jo with Dean (though I think she'd need at least a few more years to grow up/hunt on her own, and I somehow doubt that "protector" Dean would be able to give up that role, and Jo wouldn't have put up with it.)

Again, JMO.

ETA: Wow.  Pretentiously philosophical (or vice-versa).  I really shouldn't post when I'm in a talking mood.  Sorry.

Edited October 4, 2017 by ahrtee

[Katy M]

I think Sam was in love with Jessica.  He didn't have time to be in love with Sarah or Madison.  I think he was in love with Amelia, we just didn't see enough of it to be shown how they fell in love. But, I don't want to see more of it, because this isn't that kind of a show.  

[DeeDee79]

23 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

ETA: Wow.  Pretentiously philosophical (or vice-versa).  I really shouldn't post when I'm in a talking mood.  Sorry.

Post away! I always enjoy your viewpoints :)

[Katy M]

I was just thinking of something and wondering if I missed something somewhere along the way.  At the end of season 7, Kevin translated the entire Leviathan tablet for Dick, easy peasy.  Or, at least it looked that.  In Season 8, he just read from the demon tablet when he had it.  No problem.  It got a bit trickier when he only had part of it, but that makes sense.  But, in Season 9, he can't seem to just read the angel tablet. He needs to use other books and translate it from one language into another, which he also doesn't understand.  What changed so that he couldn't just read it?  Did it have to do with Heaven being closed?  If so, I guess that makes sense.  But, I don't remember anything being said about that.  And, I'm also wondering if he has to do all this extra work, what if there's any advantage to him being a prophet?  And if not, seems like Dean (and Sam) could let him go live that normal life he wanted to go live.  Sam was most likely in AP, too. And, he went to Stanford.  He can probably translate as well as Kevin if there's no special gift involved.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I was just thinking of something and wondering if I missed something somewhere along the way.  At the end of season 7, Kevin translated the entire Leviathan tablet for Dick, easy peasy.  Or, at least it looked that.  In Season 8, he just read from the demon tablet when he had it.  No problem.  It got a bit trickier when he only had part of it, but that makes sense.  But, in Season 9, he can't seem to just read the angel tablet. He needs to use other books and translate it from one language into another, which he also doesn't understand.  What changed so that he couldn't just read it?  Did it have to do with Heaven being closed?  If so, I guess that makes sense.  But, I don't remember anything being said about that.  And, I'm also wondering if he has to do all this extra work, what if there's any advantage to him being a prophet?  And if not, seems like Dean (and Sam) could let him go live that normal life he wanted to go live.  Sam was most likely in AP, too. And, he went to Stanford.  He can probably translate as well as Kevin if there's no special gift involved.

A metric butt-ton of Plotonium

[bettername2come]

On 10/3/2017 at 9:59 PM, Katy M said:

I think Sam was in love with Jessica.  He didn't have time to be in love with Sarah or Madison.  I think he was in love with Amelia, we just didn't see enough of it to be shown how they fell in love. But, I don't want to see more of it, because this isn't that kind of a show.  

I agree with this. I think with Sarah he deliberately chose not to fall in love with her, as Dean supported them and tried to get them to see each other in the following episode, but Sam turned him down. Amelia I don't understand, but I do think he loved her, even if I didn't. Eileen I think he was still at that "cared about her" stage rather than full romantic love, but she is the one I felt could've gone that way, based on how he held her, smiled at her and responded to Dean calling them "cute" on the Skype call. I felt like he had a bit of a crush.

[Airmid]

On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 6:59 PM, Katy M said:

I think Sam was in love with Jessica.  He didn't have time to be in love with Sarah or Madison.  I think he was in love with Amelia, we just didn't see enough of it to be shown how they fell in love. But, I don't want to see more of it, because this isn't that kind of a show.  

I always got the idea that Sam was in love with the idea of being in love. Sure, he met Jess in college and had time to get to know her and care for her but she knew nothing about him really and he couldn't confide in her. 

He met Amelia and again, cared for her but never confided in her fully. 

I can't see a truly in love relationship where someone is carrying around all the secrets that Sam has. He doesn't have to tell them he was drinking a demon while he banged her but he can't even tell these women about anything in his past life. Of course, it would be hard for an outsider to believe that monsters exist, and he'd need to figure out a way to prove that there is this whole other world out there, but at the end of the day it's a part of him. It's his history, it defined a good chunk of his childhood, his adult life, who he sees himself as. To not be able to share that with someone you value and respect means that the relationship will never be totally honest. 

I suppose one could argue that Sam was keeping them in the dark so that they didn't have to know about things in the dark with fangs, or be in danger. On the flip side, he's also a walking target for a lot of supernatural creatures. I mean, just being saved by a Winchester can put you in danger later on, let alone dating/living with one.  It's kind of amazing that not once did it bite him in the ass during that year long period. And while he's doing his 'normal' thing and working hard to keep Amelia in the dark, there's people dying, people in need of help, and a prophet trapped with the King of Hell. Sam was damn lucky that nobody on the evil side of things found out about her - like Crowley. He could have easily used her as leverage/hostage and she wouldn't even begin to know how to defend herself. 

JMO but I wish they wouldn't put Sam into these relationships unless they were able to actually follow through on them and 1) not murder the woman or 2) not make Sam look like a complete asshat. 

[companionenvy]

7 hours ago, Airmid said:

I can't see a truly in love relationship where someone is carrying around all the secrets that Sam has. He doesn't have to tell them he was drinking a demon while he banged her but he can't even tell these women about anything in his past life. Of course, it would be hard for an outsider to believe that monsters exist, and he'd need to figure out a way to prove that there is this whole other world out there, but at the end of the day it's a part of him. It's his history, it defined a good chunk of his childhood, his adult life, who he sees himself as. To not be able to share that with someone you value and respect means that the relationship will never be totally honest. 

I think at this point, Sam would agree, and I can't see him in a relationship with someone who didn't know about his hunting life. But given his desire for normality, I can see why Sam, especially in the case of Jess, was able to feel intimately connected to someone who knew so little about him.

In college, Sam hadn't accepted that hunting was integral to who he was -- in fact, he was trying desperately to escape that conclusion. So, I think he looked at his messed up, hunting-dominated childhood as the thing that was preventing him from being who he really was, which was a serious student with ordinary professional ambitions and personal desires. Jess evidently knew that Sam had had a difficult childhood, that he was estranged from his family, that his father was an alcoholic, etc. For Sam c. 2005, I think that was, for the most part, enough, despite continuing doubts that he could ever really fit in. 

By the Amelia era, I see Sam's attempt as more of a desperation ploy than something that probably could have worked long term, and I do think there was a lot of projection and idealizing going on to make it work. When Sam was with Jess, even though hunting had dominated his childhood, I'm not sure that his experiences yet put such a total gulf between him and the rest of the world. Sam left home at 18 or 19. He had never been a full-time hunter, and while I'm sure he had some kills under his belt, he was more often the research guy than the one holding the knife. Given the number of "new" monsters he and Dean encountered when they began hunting together, their teenage hunts seem to have been more along the lines of what they would now think of as routine - salts and burns, and the like. By the time he met Amelia, Sam had literally been to hell and back, as a major player in cosmic-level events. Sam may have loved Amelia for what she gave him, a last gasp attempt at normal life and someone who could at least share his grief. But I don't think it could have lasted even if her husband and Dean hadn't come back. 

Since Dean has always seen hunting as a major part of him, it makes sense to me that, both with Cassie and Lisa, he couldn't imagine being with someone who didn't know the truth about his life. 

[Hanahope]

I did like this season better than the last 2.  Sam was good to be so strong in wanting to cure Dean, so much better than prior seasons.  Dean was the whiny bitch about not being cured, but I do wonder if part of that was also the Mark asserting its power to dissuade Sam from "curing it," especially since it has such apparently dire consequences.

I like Rowena, I think she's a great addition to the cast, a real foil, especially since Crowley is an ally half the time.

Loved seeing Bobby again, and seeing him makes me feel at least a little less sad about Charlie.  She can very easily come back in another episode, given how often dead characters are seen again.

I agree that the Stynes seemed like good villians and it was a bit dissapointing to see them dispatched so quickly.

I really thought the boys were going to lose yet another base of operations.  I'm a bit of two minds about that.  Its good for them to have a place to be safe and research, but sometimes it seems just a bit 'too easy' with all the advantages this particular place has.

[Airmid]

From the Bitterness Thread (not sure if I have the right place for this, tell me if I don't):

 

Quote

I'm sure there's instances where this doesn't exactly match up, but my understanding is,  when being possessed by either demon or angel, the host remains until the body dies. Meg, the girl, in S1 was still inside until Meg, the demon, was exorcised and her body, being so broken, died. Cass still had Jimmy with him until the end of S5 when Lucifer killed him--and as we saw later, Jimmy was released to Heaven.  

 

I think my confusion comes from when we have instances like Meg where the body dies from its wounds in minutes but then we also have instances like in Jus In Bello where Henriksen's boss is already dead long before the demon is booted out. I was curious if the soul is trapped with the demon or if they ever mentioned if a reaper is able to take the soul once the physical body can no longer stay alive by it's own means. Later on, the boys do mention on whether or not someone was already dead at times when they use the spork but nothing about the soul. (Not going to even touch how stab first, exorcism later became a more common theme in alter seasons outside of this). 

It never made sense to me that Jimmy was brought back with Cas at the start of S5. The only time anything with Jimmy is ever mentioned, to my knowledge, is when they're dealing with famine and Cas mentions his vessel has cravings even while he, as a celestial being, doesn't. Late season, he's human so he wouldn't be able to suppress Jimmy any more if he was still inside. So shouldn't two be sharing that body?

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, Airmid said:

From the Bitterness Thread (not sure if I have the right place for this, tell me if I don't):

 

 

I think my confusion comes from when we have instances like Meg where the body dies from its wounds in minutes but then we also have instances like in Jus In Bello where Henriksen's boss is already dead long before the demon is booted out. I was curious if the soul is trapped with the demon or if they ever mentioned if a reaper is able to take the soul once the physical body can no longer stay alive by it's own means. Later on, the boys do mention on whether or not someone was already dead at times when they use the spork but nothing about the soul. (Not going to even touch how stab first, exorcism later became a more common theme in alter seasons outside of this). 

It never made sense to me that Jimmy was brought back with Cas at the start of S5. The only time anything with Jimmy is ever mentioned, to my knowledge, is when they're dealing with famine and Cas mentions his vessel has cravings even while he, as a celestial being, doesn't. Late season, he's human so he wouldn't be able to suppress Jimmy any more if he was still inside. So shouldn't two be sharing that body?

While I think it's fine here too, I'm moving to the What!?! thread--if for nothing else than to continue to play musical threads a while longer... ;)

[gonzosgirrl]

During Sam Smith's panel this weekend it was questioned whether or not Bobby and Mary knew each other before her death. She maintained they do, that he and John were military buddies, so she would have known him. I don't recall that ever being mentioned in the show. It was my understanding that they met after John got involved with hunting, post-Mary-on-the-ceiling. Thoughts?

[catrox14]

Maybe Sam is trying to reckon how Bobby was in pic of John's war buddies that was actually the pic from THE END?

Or could she have spoiled a possible AU thing? Not saying there is one.

But no, there was no evidence in show that Bobby and John knew  each other before John became a hunter.

[DittyDotDot]

43 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

During Sam Smith's panel this weekend it was questioned whether or not Bobby and Mary knew each other before her death. She maintained they do, that he and John were military buddies, so she would have known him. I don't recall that ever being mentioned in the show. It was my understanding that they met after John got involved with hunting, post-Mary-on-the-ceiling. Thoughts?

I don't believe John and Bobby knew each other back in the day. Bobby would've been a full-fledged hunter before John was, so that doesn't line up for me. Plus, I wasn't aware that Bobby was an ex-service officer at all. I'm not sure why Samantha Smith thinks this, but, IMO, it doesn't line up with show history. And, it sure didn't seem like Mary knew Bobby when he was mentioned in The Raid... .

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't believe John and Bobby knew each other back in the day. Bobby would've been a full-fledged hunter before John was, so that doesn't line up for me. Plus, I wasn't aware that Bobby was an ex-service officer at all. I'm not sure why Samantha Smith thinks this, but, IMO, it doesn't line up with show history. And, it sure didn't seem like Mary knew Bobby when he was mentioned in The Raid... .

I agree - but given some of her other statements, I'm not so sure she has kept up with, or bothered to go back and watch, any of the seasons/episodes she wasn't involved in. She got a kick out of the audience 'not knowing' something, but I felt it was more that people just didn't want to call her out. JMO though. My multi-quote button seems to have disappeared, but @catrox14 no, I don't think she was talking about the AU. It was very specific about knowing him back in the day in canon.

[Katy M]

I can believe that Bobby possibly served at some point in time, but not with John.  If he did serve with John, I can't see any point in keeping that from Sam and Dean, so it seems that in 6 seasons of Bobby being a fairly regular presence, it never came up.  In fact, why wouldn't he have at least been mentioned, if not actively helping deacon in Folsom Prison Blues? So, that doesn't make sense to me.  And, I don't see why he would have in the AU that we know abut because that appears to just be what would happen if Mary hadn't made the deal and so would have been after that point in time.

I also don't think Mary would have known Bobby through hunting.  He became a hunter because his wife died.  That probably happened after, or not too long before, the events of In the Beginning.  Even if Mary did the occasion hunting job after the fact (and let's not get me started on that), I doubt she would be making new contacts.  And, I think it's fairly obvious that Bobby had never met Samuel before And Then There Were None, so I'm really not seeing how they could have known each other. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Katy M said:

I can believe that Bobby possibly served at some point in time, but not with John.  If he did serve with John, I can't see any point in keeping that from Sam and Dean, so it seems that in 6 seasons of Bobby being a fairly regular presence, it never came up.  In fact, why wouldn't he have at least been mentioned, if not actively helping deacon in Folsom Prison Blues? So, that doesn't make sense to me.  And, I don't see why he would have in the AU that we know abut because that appears to just be what would happen if Mary hadn't made the deal and so would have been after that point in time.

I also don't think Mary would have known Bobby through hunting.  He became a hunter because his wife died.  That probably happened after, or not too long before, the events of In the Beginning.  Even if Mary did the occasion hunting job after the fact (and let's not get me started on that), I doubt she would be making new contacts.  And, I think it's fairly obvious that Bobby had never met Samuel before And Then There Were None, so I'm really not seeing how they could have known each other. 

Yeah she was talking about having known him through John, so, no.

[Katy M]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah she was talking about having known him through John, so, no.

See, this is basically why I don't care what actors, writers, or directors say off-screen. I like to watch the commentary, but that's mostly because I find it interesting on different aspects of how the show was made, or what was going on while they were filming it.  I have no desire to get information about what I should be able to know from watching the show.  Now, as for opinions about what characters think or feel, it's always interesting to get an actor's take on that, but their opinion is not necessarily better than mine, and certainly doesn't need to supersede it.

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah she was talking about having known him through John, so, no.

If this is all her headcanon that's fine but she needs to make it clear to the con crowds that she doesn't REALLY know and it isn't canon in show but just what she thinks. The other notion I have is that she is peddling a new narrative shift that the showrunners are telling her.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I started watching Adventures in Babysitting last night (only got a few minutes in before I got distracted and had to stop) but in light of the end of S12 and how we know S13 is going to start, the beginning of this ep with the boys mourning Bobby really resonated.  Especially that Week 1, when they're both just sitting in the cabin staring into space.  

[SueB]

The discussion topic: when did Dean completely remember hell.  

Current thoughts range from immediately to slowly until Lilith showed up in his hallucination during Yellow Fever. 

I agree with the slow leak- through till Yelliw a Fever.  He still had optimism in Monster Movie.  

[Lemuria]

Quote

Yeah she was talking about having known him through John, so, no.

Bobby being a long-standing figure in the Winchester world is a retcon that starts with "A Very Supernatural Christmas."  Watch "Devil's Trap" again.  There was no doubt in my mind when that ep first aired that, while John may have known, or known of, Bobby before Sam left for Stanford (though he also may not have), at the very least, Dean had not learned of or met Bobby until after Sam was gone, or that Sam did not know Bobby until the season 1 finale.  Two primary reasons I felt that way (and still do):  first, when Dean says that saving John is there first priority and that he knows where to go, Sam has no idea where Dean is going.  He never mentions Bobby.

Second, Sam was amazed at the books in Bobby's library.  This would not have been his attitude had he grown up around Bobby and Bobby's house and Bobby's library.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Lemuria

[DeeDee79]

24 minutes ago, SueB said:

The discussion topic: when did Dean completely remember hell.  

Current thoughts range from immediately to slowly until Lilith showed up in his hallucination during Yellow Fever. 

I agree with the slow leak- through till Yelliw a Fever.  He still had optimism in Monster Movie.  

I think so too. He seemed to be having flashbacks in Lazarus Rising & It's The Great Pumpkin SW but due to all of the heavy drinking before his confession in Wishful Thinking it definitely it makes sense that he had fully regained his memories shortly before that point. I'm thinking the trauma of the ghost sickness may have shaken the rest of the memories loose.

[ahrtee]

29 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Bobby being a long-standing figure in the Winchester world is a retcon that starts with "A Very Supernatural Christmas."  Watch "Devil's Trap" again.  There was no doubt in my mind when that ep first aired that, while John may have known, or known of, Bobby before Sam left for Stanford (though he also may not have), at the very least, Dean had not learned of or met Bobby until after Sam was gone, or that Sam did not know Bobby until the season 1 finale.  Two primary reasons I felt that way (and still do):  first, when Dean says that saving John is there first priority and that he knows where to go, Sam has no idea where Dean is going.  He never mentions Bobby.

Second, Sam was amazed at the books in Bobby's library.  This would not have been his attitude had he grown up around Bobby and Bobby's house and Bobby's library.

IA that it was a retcon to make him into a surrogate father, but there's plenty of evidence that they knew him long before season 1:

When they first went to him in Devil's Trap, Dean said :

Dean: Bobby, thanks. Thanks for everything. To tell you the truth, I wasn’t sure we should come.

Bobby: Nonsense. Your Daddy needs help.

Dean: Well, yeah, but last time we saw you, I mean, you did threaten to blast him full of buckshot. Cocked the shotgun and everything.

Bobby: Yeah, well, what can I say? John just has that effect on people.

That implies to me that they had been around before.  It's fanon (but completely conceivable) that the reason Bobby threatened to shoot John was because he disagreed with the way he was raising/treating the boys (which was shown in Death's Door).  We don't know if Sam has no idea where he's heading:  Once Dean says "I know where to go," the next scene shows Sam engrossed in the book (and seeming very comfortable and familiar with Bobby and his house.)  He wasn't marveling at all the books, just the one in particular he was looking at, with the Key of Solomon.   It's possible (in fact, likely) that Bobby hadn't had the book that long, because he would have passed the information about Devil's Traps along to other hunters already.  (IMO he wasn't like Grandpa Campbell, hoarding hunting info and keeping it on a "need to know basis."  How stupid was it not to pass along the vampire cure to other hunters over the years?...but that's a whole other rant.)  :)

Anyway, even if Bobby did have the book before, it's possible that Sam was too young (or considered too young) to be reading it (maybe the split happened before Sam even learned about monsters!)  But Bobby was the first one Sam called after the accident, so he could pick up the car.  

There are also plenty of clues that the boys knew Pastor Jim when they were kids, but when John pulls the car over and says "Jim Murphy's been killed," Sam looks puzzled and has to ask "Pastor Jim?"  So I think the boys didn't really have that strong a connection to other hunters as kids, even if/when the did spend a lot of time with them.  I think John probably didn't want them involved in hunting until they were old enough to be backup, and they were sent to Bobby and Jim to keep them away from monsters and any danger while John went hunting himself.  Again, JMO.

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

(IMO he wasn't like Grandpa Campbell, hoarding hunting info and keeping it on a "need to know basis."  How stupid was it not to pass along the vampire cure to other hunters over the years?...but that's a whole other rant.)  :)

When TNT reran season 6 a few weeks ago & I rewatched Frontierland I started to wonder what happened to the library that Samuel kept that Sam let them into. Were there still Campbell relatives around? The homestead seemed abandoned so why wouldn't they use that for a resource more than once especially after the Leviathans destroyed Bobby's house in S7 and they had nowhere to go besides Rufus's cabin?

15 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It's fanon (but completely conceivable) that the reason Bobby threatened to shoot John was because he disagreed with the way he was raising/treating the boys (which was shown in Death's Door). 

Based on the scene from Death's Door I would say that this viewpoint is pretty much canon.

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

So I think the boys didn't really have that strong a connection to other hunters as kids, even if/when the did spend a lot of time with them. 

True indeed. For example in the Asa Fox episode Sam mentioned that they had never been to a hunters wake because their dad wouldn't take them around other hunters. I think that he stated that John thought that they were bad news but I don't remember the exact quote.

[Lemuria]

22 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That implies to me that they had been around before.  It's fanon (but completely conceivable) that the reason Bobby threatened to shoot John was because he disagreed with the way he was raising/treating the boys (which was shown in Death's Door).  We don't know if Sam has no idea where he's heading:  Once Dean says "I know where to go," the next scene shows Sam engrossed in the book (and seeming very comfortable and familiar with Bobby and his house.)  He wasn't marveling at all the books, just the one in particular he was looking at, with the Key of Solomon.   It's possible (in fact, likely) that Bobby hadn't had the book that long, because he would have passed the information about Devil's Traps along to other hunters already.  (IMO he wasn't like Grandpa Campbell, hoarding hunting info and keeping it on a "need to know basis."  How stupid was it not to pass along the vampire cure to other hunters over the years?...but that's a whole other rant.)  :)

Occam's Razor applies, I think--look how many variations of "it's possible" you have to make.  What might be "conceivable" (and fanon) is just really pure speculation.  And there's no reason to assume that Bobby only recently acquired the Key of Solomon or that he would have passed on any knowledge--the Bobby who was Hunter Central doesn't show up until well after "Devil's Trap"--again, it's assumption not based on anything said or shown in the show.

I never suggested that Dean had not met Bobby before "Devil's Trap," only that I got the distinct impression in the finale that Sam had not.  John had a gift for ticking people off and that was all that I took away from that dialogue.  In fact, if we were supposed to assume that Bobby knew Dean and Sam from the time they were kids and felt that they weren't being raised right, there is no way that Dean would have hesitated to come to Bobby for help, even if Bobby had been mad at John.  And there's no way Sam would not have thought of Bobby as a source of help, the way Dean did.

 

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Based on the scene from Death's Door I would say that this viewpoint is pretty much canon.

It is now but that was six season later and is clearly part of the retcon that started in season 3.  JMO YMMV.

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

It is now but that was six season later and is clearly part of the retcon that started in season 3.

Yes, I basically meant that it is now canon due to the fact that the show pretty much made it so in Death's Door.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Occam's Razor applies, I think--look how many variations of "it's possible" you have to make.  What might be "conceivable" (and fanon) is just really pure speculation.  And there's no reason to assume that Bobby only recently acquired the Key of Solomon or that he would have passed on any knowledge--the Bobby who was Hunter Central doesn't show up until well after "Devil's Trap"--again, it's assumption not based on anything said or shown in the show.

I never suggested that Dean had not met Bobby before "Devil's Trap," only that I got the distinct impression in the finale that Sam had not.  John had a gift for ticking people off and that was all that I took away from that dialogue.  In fact, if we were supposed to assume that Bobby knew Dean and Sam from the time they were kids and felt that they weren't being raised right, there is no way that Dean would have hesitated to come to Bobby for help, even if Bobby had been mad at John.  And there's no way Sam would not have thought of Bobby as a source of help, the way Dean did.

 

It is now but that was six season later and is clearly part of the retcon that started in season 3.  JMO YMMV.

In the absence of an absolute answer, all we have is speculation (or supposition, which I phrased as "it's possible,") because I was trying to leave it open to other interpretations.   Next time I won't be so circumspect. :) 

But the fact is there's no absolute proof either way *for that particular episode*, and we both seem to be reading the same script in completely opposite ways, so we're either both right or both wrong, until proven otherwise.  It's my interpretation that the "we" Dean was referring to in "the last time we saw you" included Sam, since he was standing there with him at the time, or he would just have said "the last time Dad and I were here...."  Similarly, it makes perfect sense to me that excessively-loyal-to-Dad Dean wouldn't want to go against his father by going behind his back to someone he knew John was angry at/who was furious with John.  The only point that is definitely fanon and not indicated in any way by the show was the *possibility* that the reason for the fight was over the boy's upbringing, so you can ignore or eliminate that part if you want.

But one thing I do have to point out is that adding a new fact about a person or event is not a retcon unless it contradicts something they said (or showed) earlier; and by clarifying something that had been ambiguous before, it *becomes* canon.  To be perfectly blunt, if they didn't *say* something directly, then it can't be contradicted.  So since they never said outright that the boys knew Bobby when they were kids, it's *your interpretation" (or "distinct impression") that they didn't.  My impression is different.  But the first time they had wee!Sam call him "Uncle Bobby" and talk about going to him for a present for John, it became canon.  And that's not a retcon, it's adding new information not previously shown.

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

When TNT reran season 6 a few weeks ago & I rewatched Frontierland I started to wonder what happened to the library that Samuel kept that Sam let them into. Were there still Campbell relatives around? The homestead seemed abandoned so why wouldn't they use that for a resource more than once especially after the Leviathans destroyed Bobby's house in S7 and they had nowhere to go besides Rufus's cabin?

The Levis would've known about the Campbell base because they copied Sam and Dean and had access to their memories. Rufus's cabin was somewhere Bobby knew about, but Sam and Dean didn't.

ETA: Although, I too have wondered what happened to that library, but maybe Bobby collected all the books and those are some of the things he had stored all over the place in S7? Who knows?

Edited October 15, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

The discussion topic: when did Dean completely remember hell.  

Current thoughts range from immediately to slowly until Lilith showed up in his hallucination during Yellow Fever. 

I agree with the slow leak- through till Yelliw a Fever.  He still had optimism in Monster Movie.  

I think Dean remembered right away, but couldn't really process those memories with being alive again. In other words, based on the flashes he had in the gas station, I'm not sure he didn't think his being alive was another form of torture at first and was kinda just going along with it. But, I think by the time he meets up with Sam he knows it's real and I think he remembers, but it's just like he said later, there are no words so he lies about it because to do otherwise would be too difficult.

Edited October 15, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 

 

Did Bobby get a hunter's funeral?  I just realized we never saw it.  I don't think.  I don't remember seeing it, which is weird.  I mean, Death's Door was a great send off for the character, but a little odd that Sam and Dean didn't give him a hunter's funeral.  It makes sense for the plot developments, but odd from Sam and Dean's POV.

In regards to your spoilered question the answer is yes he is :). 

And he did get a hunters funeral! I’m not sure about the episode, although I suspect Of Grace importance, but I remember an exchange between the brothers that was along the lines of

 

Sam: “What are we going to do about Bobby?” 

Dean: “We did what we were supposed to do, we burned his body but he...” 

 

I’ll try and see if I can find the actual dialogue and edit the post with it later :)

 

ETA: @RulerofallIsurvey . I managed to find the dialogue I was thinking of along with another quote that confirms he got a hunters funeral. I was right that it was mentioned during Of Grave Importance 

 

Quote

BOBBY
Well, you didn't know her like I did.

DEAN laughs briefly and SAM clears his throat.

DEAN
Well, uh… [He takes out the flask.] Here's to Annie. She got the hunter's funeral she wanted. [He takes a drink.] Kind of like the one we thought we gave you.

 

AND

 

SAM
So, what do you think we should do?

DEAN
We did what we should do. Now I don't know.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

In regards to your spoilered question the answer is yes he is :). 

And he did get a hunters funeral! I’m not sure about the episode, although I suspect Of Grace importance, but I remember an exchange between the brothers that was along the lines of

 

Sam: “What are we going to do about Bobby?” 

Dean: “We did what we were supposed to do, we burned his body but he...” 

There's also an exchange in Party on Garth where Garth thinks Bobby is haunting them because the EMF detectors are all hinky and Dean says, "No, Bobby got a hunter's funeral." And then Garth mentioned so did his cousin, but he came back too.

So, we never see it on screen, but, yes, I believe they gave Bobby a hunter's funeral.

Edited October 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Okay, thanks @Wayward Son and @DittyDotDot!  I remembered the ghost!Bobby story-line, that's why I wondered whether or not he ever got a hunter's funeral, since we didn't see it on screen.  I wonder though, if those lines were thrown in after some feedback/criticism that if the boys gave Bobby a hunter's funeral, like everyone knows they would have done, Bobby shouldn't have come back as a ghost.   Otherwise, I still think it's odd we didn't actually see it on the show.  

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay, thanks @Wayward Son and @DittyDotDot!  I remembered the ghost!Bobby story-line, that's why I wondered whether or not he ever got a hunter's funeral, since we didn't see it on screen.  I wonder though, if those lines were thrown in after some feedback/criticism that if the boys gave Bobby a hunter's funeral, like everyone knows they would have done, Bobby shouldn't have come back as a ghost.   Otherwise, I still think it's odd we didn't actually see it on the show.  

I can't imagine it was due to feedback. The show is usually far enough ahead that it would be somewhat impossible. They were probably shooting Party On Garth when Adventures in Babysitting was airing. And, the comment in Party on Garth was plot-relevant and also established that a hunter's funeral isn't foolproof, so I think they just figured we didn't need to see another pyre scene for us to think they gave Bobby a hunter's funeral.

Edited October 16, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I don’t really think it applies to them under Dabb, but I’d certainly agree it has applied to Sam and Dean under former show runners. I think the titles all Cas’ under Dabb’s leadership but we can agree to disagree :)

IMO Cas suffered the worst under Sera. He betrayed Dean, broke Sam's wall, started a war, annihilated angels, let out the Leviathan and became God!Cas. He got zero redemption under Sera and got dead. Under Carver and Kripke he had redemptive stories.

Under Carver/Dabb he took on Lucifer trying to Save the world with Team Kill Amara.

If Castiel had not been suffering from the fallout of the attack dog spell which wasn't really his fault, other than going along with Sam's plan, and didn't have his own PTSD and poor self image he wouldn't have let Amara affect him so deeply that he made a bad choice to let Lucifer possess him. But the narrative also made is that Cas did do the right thing because Lucifer was in the fight against Amara. IMO, if Sam had not gone to the Cage alone, and had waited for Dean who didn't answer his phone then maybe all of them would not have ended up in the Cage but that's tough to say because, Rowena was in cahoots with Lucifer so who knows.

If Amara hadn't blasted him out of Cas, Lucifer might still be contained and properly exorcised back to the Cage. That's not on Cas. It's really on Amara and Crowley's fault that Lucifer was out and about and made a Spawn.

He saved the boys from Billie to his own expense. In s12, he didn't do anything stupid until Jack and Kelly showed up and he was trying to save the boys from having to kill Jack. So IMO he was doing a heroic thing but it went sideways because Jack deemed him "Daddy".  I do think he was made to look stupid by trying to kill Lucifer in the AU, but I think that was Jack compelling him to do that. So I don't put that on Cas.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO Cas suffered the worst under Sera. He betrayed Dean, broke Sam's wall, started a war, annihilated angels, let out the Leviathan and became God!Cas. He got zero redemption under Sera and got dead. Under Carver and Kripke he had redemptive stories.

Under Carver/Dabb he took on Lucifer trying to Save the world with Team Kill Amara.

If Castiel had not been suffering from the fallout of the attack dog spell which wasn't really his fault, other than going along with Sam's plan, and didn't have his own PTSD and poor self image he wouldn't have let Amara affect him so deeply that he made a bad choice to let Lucifer possess him. But the narrative also made is that Cas did do the right thing because Lucifer was in the fight against Amara. IMO, if Sam had not gone to the Cage alone, and had waited for Dean who didn't answer his phone then maybe all of them would not have ended up in the Cage but that's tough to say because, Rowena was in cahoots with Lucifer so who knows.

If Amara hadn't blasted him out of Cas, Lucifer might still be contained and properly exorcised back to the Cage. That's not on Cas. It's really on Amara and Crowley's fault that Lucifer was out and about and made a Spawn.

He saved the boys from Billie to his own expense. In s12, he didn't do anything stupid until Jack and Kelly showed up and he was trying to save the boys from having to kill Jack. So IMO he was doing a heroic thing but it went sideways because Jack deemed him "Daddy".  I do think he was made to look stupid by trying to kill Lucifer in the AU, but I think that was Jack compelling him to do that. So I don't put that on Cas.

I’d agree with you about Carver and Kripke giving redemptive arcs to Castiel. Despite my intense dislike of the overall Carver era, particularly his portrayal of Sam and Dean, I feel he was the one shower runner post Kripke to treat Cas and his fans with respect.

 

In terms of Dabb vs Gamble I’d consider both to be pretty awful with Cas, but Dabb is just slightly worse IMO. With them both Cas has done some reckless and awful things. However, under Gamble at least S6 Cas was rather capable. He was distant and a bit of a dick at times, but at least he was a competent dick. Under Dabb he’s not only the idiot who can’t get catch a win, but he’s also the bumbling Idiot who can’t even handle a simple run of the mill vampire hunt.

 

Personally, I think Dabb had a strong hand in shaping s11 even if he wasn’t the official show runner. So I’ll consider Cas’ season 11 storylines when judging Dabb, although I accept others wont.

 

So far under Dabb

 

- Castiel has said yes to the devil in spite of knowing perfectly well this is a bad idea. Lucifer!Cas played absolutely no part in the final confrontation with Amara where Dean ended up being the one to persuade her to back down. Thus his motivations may have been pure,  but he was completely wrong and Lucifer’s release had no benefit. In fact the consequences of freeing him are still being felt two seasons later.

- In season 12 Castiel turned on the brothers in favour of protecting Jack and Kelly. He stole from Dean and left them unconscious outside the gates of heaven. 

Spoiler

 

- And now in s13 he is about to make yet another deal with the devil and I’d eat my eat if, based on dabbs history, this doesn’t present Cas as the biggest idiot there ever was. 

 

 

 

As for Sam and Dean while I think the tag could apply under previous showers. For instance Sam started off wanting to stop Lilith and turned into a drunkie who started the apocalypse and Dean taking the mark to stop Amara culminated in the darkness release. However, I don’t think they’ve made any major mistakes under Dabb’s tenure. The role of fall out boy and overall idiot lies with Cas instead.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Wayward Son
Forgot the thread I was in and wrote a spoiler! Sorry to anyone who may have read :(

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

However, I don’t think they’ve made any major mistakes under Dabb’s tenure. The role of fall out boy and overall idiot lies with Cas instead.

Depends on when you think Dabb got involved. If Dabb was really active in s11 from the jump like I think he was then I would say the Darkness being released was a pretty big fuck up for the boys.

Lucifer!Cas did help with Amara. Just because it didn't work doesn't mean he wasn't part of the action. Nothing any of them did worked other than the setup from Pigeon Lady and Dean's follow through. Sam was fooled by the visions so that wasn't great for him at all. If Sam and Dean had just used their brains maybe they would have figured out that it was Lucifer not God sending messages. So they both looked foolish in s11 IMO

In s12, Dean didn't do much of anything at all so...he couldn't really screw much up either so thanks, Dabb?

Sam messed up joining the BMOL but he also got to kill them so, wash?

We don't how everything with Jack is going to pan out yet so maybe if Jack turns out good it will be because of Castiel's influence on Jack via their in utero bonding moments so in death Cas has a victory?

[AwesomO4000]

On 10/18/2017 at 6:00 PM, catrox14 said:

IMO Cas suffered the worst under Sera. He betrayed Dean, broke Sam's wall, started a war, annihilated angels, let out the Leviathan and became God!Cas. He got zero redemption under Sera and got dead.

I thought that Castiel fixing Sam was redemptive. And in the end, Cas did play two crucial roles in helping Dean kill Dick Roman. First he supplied one of the necessary ingredients for the weapon. Second, without Castiel to spot the real Dick Roman leader versus the clones, Dean wouldn't have been able to kill him, and in helping, Cas sacrificed himself, since he ended up in purgatory.

Also I don't blame Castiel for starting that angel war. I put that directly on Raphael. The entire thing wouldn't have happened if Raphael hadn't insisted on raising Lucifer anyway. Since he was an archangel, this made it difficult for anyone to oppose him alone, and since no one else was stepping up, Castiel went down the slippery slope to do so.

On 10/18/2017 at 7:00 PM, catrox14 said:

Depends on when you think Dabb got involved. If Dabb was really active in s11 from the jump like I think he was then I would say the Darkness being released was a pretty big fuck up for the boys.

But the Darkness happened at the end of season 10, and since I saw that - in a general sense - coming from 6 or so episodes out, I think that had pretty much been decided by Carver... unless Dabb had a hand in guiding some of season 10 as well... which very well could've been the case, I don't know, because there did seem to be a bit of a tonal shift between season 9 and 10, so...

[DittyDotDot]

On 10/18/2017 at 5:00 PM, catrox14 said:

IMO Cas suffered the worst under Sera. He betrayed Dean, broke Sam's wall, started a war, annihilated angels, let out the Leviathan and became God!Cas. He got zero redemption under Sera and got dead. Under Carver and Kripke he had redemptive stories.

I actually think Cass fared the best under Gamble. Kripke may have given him life, but, if you ask me, Cass was never more alive than he was under Gamble's run--even though he was mostly dead for a good chunk of it. He may not have always done it "right", but he lived, breathed and had purpose outside Sam and Dean. I think his storyline under Gamble was complex and surprising and some of the best meat they've given Cass to chew, IMO.

Carver may have given Cass redemption over and over and over again--which I'd argue Gamble also gave him redemption--but he also played it safe with Cass which, IMO, only served to neuter Cass as a character. So far, I'd say Dabb has also played it safe with Cass, but maybe that will change this season?

[gonzosgirrl]

Posting about IMTOD in another thread got me wondering if this was my most re-watched episode. I think so. I love this episode beyond reason. For me, it set up so many things to come. Plus I am an unabashed hurt!Dean lover, so there's that. I don't know how many times I've watched it, but it's a lot. Born Under A Bad Sign is another go-to episode, and Dark Side of the Moon. So, full season/series re-watches aside, what is your most re-watched single episode?

Edited October 24, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Wayward Son]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Posting about IMTOD in another thread got me wondering if this was my most re-watched episode. I think so. I love this episode beyond reason. For me, it set up so many things to come. Plus I am an unabashed hurt!Dean lover, so there's that. I don't know how many times I've watched it, but it's a lot. Born Under A Bad Sign is another go-to episode, and Dark Side of the Moon. So, full season/series re-watches aside, what is your most re-watched single episode?

I'm not sure if I could name a specific episode I've watched the most but the episodes I most adore are: Faith, In My Time of Dying, All Hell Breaks Loose Part 2, Jus In Bello, On the Head of a Pin and The Song Remains the Same. 

[Aeryn13]

Most rewatched episode would probably be "In my time of dying", most rewatched scene without a doubt Castiel`s entrance in Lazarus Rising. To me that entire scene was mesmerizing, the setting, the lighting, the effects, the music, the acting and even the dialogue was good. Anything from the wind starting to howl through the barn to Cas declaring Dean has a job/mission is stellar. 

Unfortunately, it no longer brings me joy as a scene because of how Season 5 concluded it but I still consider it probably the best scene of the show, the best character entrance by a country mile.   

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Posting about IMTOD in another thread got me wondering if this was my most re-watched episode. I think so. I love this episode beyond reason. For me, it set up so many things to come. Plus I am an unabashed hurt!Dean lover, so there's that. I don't know how many times I've watched it, but it's a lot. Born Under A Bad Sign is another go-to episode, and Dark Side of the Moon. So, full season/series re-watches aside, what is your most re-watched single episode?

The End by far. It's the only episode I won't delete from my DVR lol

It's followed by On the Head of a Pin, Lazarus Rising, Nightshifter, First Born, Riechenbach  and the Prisoner.

Edited October 24, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The End by far. It's the only episode I won't delete from my DVR lol

It's followed by On the Head of a Pin, Lazarus Rising, Nightshifter, First Born, Riechenbach  and the Prisoner.

I absolutely love love love The End.  I don't see how anybody can't love that epi.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I absolutely love love love The End.  I don't see how anybody can't love that epi.

Yeah it's my all time fave so ever

[Jeddah]

I’ve probably watched the pilot the most. I rewatch “Shadow” fairly often. Actually, now that I think about it, I rewatch a lot of Season 1 episodes. From other seasons, I would say “What Is and What Should Never Be,” “Dark Side of the Moon,” “Fan Fiction,” and “Baby.”

And I know we all rewatch “Bloodlines” and “Man’s Best Friend With Benefits” all the time, right? ;)

Edited October 24, 2017 by Jeddah
Oxford comma