All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[SueB]

51 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Brought over from bitch vs jerk
 

I could see him signing up at that point.  No, they weren't very helpful, but they did have resources. What makes no sense to me is that they are still working with them fter Ladies Drink Free and the d The British Invasion.  They know that killing a monster, even if they haven't killed is BMOL SOP, and that anyone who accidentally killed a BMOL is now up for death.  So, it is dangerous to work with them and aagains their own moral code.  This is information they didn't have when signing up, but they do now.

I agree. The new information is a red flag.  But this is the path of rationalization.  

Part way through Ladies Drink Free they essentially told Mick they were "out", but then Mick saved Claire.  So they stayed for a second chance.  Then Mick went against his code and didn't kill Eileen in the next case.  So, from their POV, this guy is literally changing his 'code' as part of working with the boys.  Now they hear he's in hot water over it, but ... (and this is TOTALLY a rationalization)... wouldn't it be kind of cheesy to not stay with the BMoL for Mick's sake?  They think he's back in London trying to justify how things have to be in America.  They know he's in hot water but if they leave now, it's like they got him in trouble and then ditched him.  They aren't all that loyal to him, but the guy DID come around and do the right thing twice.  So, from their POV, they aren't changing how THEY operate, they are changing Mick and by extension letting the BMoL know that "The Code" shit is not going to work with them.   They don't know it's only Mick's dead body that went back to London.  

Finally, while they are definitely not comfortable with Ketch but expect they'll hear from Mick.  So, there's an element of 'wait and see'. Ketch did say it was 'for the moment'. If some random newbie answered the phone and said that Mick had been REPLACED because of his actions, then they'd know that the two worlds are incompatible.  Look, these are the guys who got an Angel of the Lord to rebel.  There was no group with a stricter code than the Angels (see Anna Milton).  Now, in the case of Cas, he TOLD them there was no hope for the rest of the Angels.  And the boys stopped relying on Angels in S5.  But in this case, Mick is just absent.  They probably want to see if it's still possible to work with them (again RATIONALIZATION).  If they knew Mick was dead, they'd be out.  

[rue721]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The all made their own choices but I always factor mitigating circumstances into how these characters behave and why they come to the choices they do.  Family pressure can be really difficult for some people to manage even when you're 50 or 15.

I guess I'm in between, because on the one hand, I have absolutely no problem with Sam and Dean deciding to work with the BMOL considering that Mary was entangled with them...I really don't see what their options were at that point, because they couldn't just let her twist in the wind.

What makes me actually incredulous is that, how the show played it, it was like concern for her didn't even come into the decision for either one of them...I can't wrap my mind around THAT idea, so I just flat out reject it. LOL. Obviously YMMV.

But anyway, at the same time, I can't blame Mary for other people's (Sam's and Dean's) decisions. She didn't force them or make the decision for them. TBH I don't even think she understands the (familial) pressure that they would (theoretically, in my head-cannon anyway!) feel to join once they knew she was entangling herself.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

I guess I'm in between, because on the one hand, I have absolutely no problem with Sam and Dean deciding to work with the BMOL considering that Mary was entangled with them...I really don't see what their options were at that point, because they couldn't just let her twist in the wind.

What makes me actually incredulous is that, how the show played it, it was like concern for her didn't even come into the decision for either one of them...I can't wrap my mind around THAT idea, so I just flat out reject it. LOL. Obviously YMMV.

But anyway, at the same time, I can't blame Mary for other people's (Sam's and Dean's) decisions. She didn't force them or make the decision for them. TBH I don't even think she understands the (familial) pressure that they would (theoretically, in my head-cannon anyway!) feel to join once they knew she was entangling herself.

I get that. I am coming at from my sympathies lying with Dean and Sam.  Not Mary.

The history of the boys is such that we know they go to the mat for family. They do stupid things for family. They do incredibly idiotic and universe altering things for family. So for me, it's not a far leap that they both joined out of their own messed up emotional turmoil over Mary. It would have been nice for the show to have shown us their processes at arriving to their decisions, but I'm making a leap that the boys did join her for emotional reasons.

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

...I really don't see what their options were at that point, because they couldn't just let her twist in the wind.

I don't think they've even seen her since they joined up.  Even without joining, they could have told her if she got into deep and needed help getting out, call them.  To take a more real world example, if a family member joined the mob, you wouldn't join too, just to keep an eye on them. 

[rue721]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I get that. I am coming at from my sympathies lying with Dean and Sam.  Not Mary.

The history of the boys is such that we know they go to the mat for family. They do stupid things for family. They do incredibly idiotic and universe altering things for family. So for me, it's not a far leap that they both joined out of their own messed up emotional turmoil over Mary. It would have been nice for the show to have shown us their processes at arriving to their decisions, but I'm making a leap that the boys did join her for emotional reasons.

I mean, I am making that leap, too, that's my point. Apparently, it is literally impossible for me to believe that concern for her wouldn't be a major driver in their decision to work with the BMOL. Or really the only necessary driver in that decision at all.

Despite the show itself ignoring that (by and large) and making the characters instead give silly explanations for their decision to work with the BMOL, like Sam's claim that he was so impressed by the BMOL's handling of the disastrous vampire raid. Pfffft. How could that be what he's worried about, instead of just straight up being worried about his mom? (Like a normal person would be). I just don't buy it LOL.

Although, I don't think that it's stupid for them to start working with the BMOL out of concern for her, either. What are they supposed to do, just let her kill herself out of ignorance and fucked-up-in-the-head-ness? IMO it's not stupid or even unusual for them to try to protect her, at least to the point of trying to keep an eye on her or keep their hand in the situation.

My frustration with Mary herself has basically burnt itself out, though. She's apparently fucked up and throwing herself into a dangerous situation, but I think she's not really seeing the larger consequences, and I'm not really that het up about it anymore because of that. YMMV.

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I don't think they've even seen her since they joined up.  Even without joining, they could have told her if she got into deep and needed help getting out, call them.  To take a more real world example, if a family member joined the mob, you wouldn't join too, just to keep an eye on them. 

She has no clue that she's already in this deep. I dunno, personally, I would be trying to keep my eye out. Not really doing or saying anything, but "making myself available." Because obviously shit is going to hit the fan soon.

I don't think your mob example is comparable, because the mob itself isn't going to let you NOT join -- and one tactic to force you into joining is pretty likely to be to prey on your concern for a family member/loved one who is already in deep.

The BMOL are fascists, so I think that a better example is the pressure to joining a fascist/extremist group whose ideology you don't agree with. IMO that's a different scenario, because the BMOL, like a lot of groups like that, are very rules-obsessed. Whereas mobs are pretty BREAKING-rules-obsessed lol.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

She has no clue that she's already in this deep. I dunno, personally, I would be trying to keep my eye out. Not really doing or saying anything, but "making myself available." Because obviously shit is going to hit the fan soon.

Yeah, see that's my point.  They didn't have to join up to be available or keep their eyes out.  And, like I said, I don't think they've laid eyes on Mary since joining up, so I don't think they did so in order to keep an eye on her.

 

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't think your mob example is comparable, because the mob itself isn't going to let you NOT join -- and one tactic to force you into joining is pretty likely to be to prey on your concern for a family member/loved one who is already in deep.

Well, what can I say?  I don't know a lot about the mob.  And I intend to keepit that way.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Despite the show itself ignoring that (by and large) and making the characters instead give silly explanations for their decision to work with the BMOL, like Sam's claim that he was so impressed by the BMOL's handling of the disastrous vampire raid. Pfffft. How could that be what he's worried about, instead of just straight up being worried about his mom? (Like a normal person would be). I just don't buy it LOL.

Maybe he feels like he doesn't want to seem patronizing of her by saying he's joining to make sure she's okay. I mean she probably would be all 'I don't need a babysitter" so he just says something different?

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

The BMOL are fascists, so I think that a better example is the pressure to joining a fascist/extremist group whose ideology you don't agree with. IMO that's a different scenario, because the BMOL, like a lot of groups like that, are very rules-obsessed. Whereas mobs are pretty BREAKING-rules-obsessed lol.

You know this is just sparked something in my brain.  I'm guessing the boys don't know they are fascists per se. But it made me wonder if we might not find that "old men" are actually Nazis and it ties it back to the Hitler episode because that would actually make the existence of that episode somewhat worthwhile. 

[rue721]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, what can I say?  I don't know a lot about the mob.  And I intend to keepit that way.

LOL to be fair, what I know is based on family experience. Yet I am NOT in the mob. Point for you ;)

OTOH keeping the rest of the family out of that quagmire was very hard-won (and not entirely successful) by the relative in question. I don't think that a dumbass like Mary could pull it off TBH!

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

LOL to be fair, what I know is based on family experience. Yet I am NOT in the mob. Point for you ;)

OTOH keeping the rest of the family out of that quagmire was very hard-won (and not entirely successful) by the relative in question. I don't think that a dumbass like Mary could pull it off TBH!

Everything I know about the Mob I learned from The Godfather and the Sopranos. 

LOL and they never let you leave.

Edited April 25, 2017 by catrox14

[SueB]

42 minutes ago, rue721 said:

LOL to be fair, what I know is based on family experience. Yet I am NOT in the mob. Point for you ;)

OTOH keeping the rest of the family out of that quagmire was very hard-won (and not entirely successful) by the relative in question. I don't think that a dumbass like Mary could pull it off TBH!

I'm not in the mob, but I'm pretty sure my Uncle Elmer (yes, that was his name... different era) was.  Uncle Elmer was gunned down on the streets of Chicago by a black car driving by -- in broad daylight. Of course it was sometime in the 1930's ... things were different then.

But yeah, don't cross the mob.  

[auntvi]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

LOL and they never let you leave.

"Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in."

[dragonsbite]

I haven't watched this Season past the first couple of episodes.  The last few seasons have been sub-par, which turned me off completely. Basically, I hung in there season after season in hope. But nothing has lived up to the line, "I gripped you tight and raised you from perdition."

Today, I decided to read some of the comments about this episode to decide whether I should watch or delete the recordings for this season.  I'm still on the shelf. Is it really worth continuing to invest my hopes in this show?

[MysteryGuest]

7 minutes ago, dragonsbite said:

Is it really worth continuing to invest my hopes in this show?

I guess it depends on what you're hoping for.  While this season has not been one of the best, IMO, I still like the show and the characters, so I'm going to continue to watch until the end.  I always hope for a good episode.  Sometimes I get what I want and other times not so much.  But at this point, I need/want to see it through to the end.

[Wayward Son]

8 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

You are right that they have done this with Mary too i.e. that it has been Dean doing all the communicating for no discernible story reason. In my view this is part of a long standing pattern that the writers fall into where it is always Dean who has the bond with / is the focus of other chs both good and evil. Just for starters I could list: Jo, Benny, Crowley, Amarra, Death, Garth, Chrissy, Claire, Anna, Cain, Michael, Zachariah, Abbadon the paranoid guy in the caravan in s7 (someone remind me of his name), the Reaper lady (what's with my memory!). They even made it canon that Dean was Bobby's favourite! 

While Sam has the much shorter and far more dubious list of; YED, Luci and Ruby plus, only recently / briefly Eileen. Kevin, Charlie and Jody are evenish.

As I love them both equally I'd prefer a bit more balance but so long as the boys are a united front vs the bad guys and are portrayed consistently and sympathetically it doesn't bother me. Problem comes when it isn't justified by the story. Dean being the link with Mary is a prime example of this. 

I think to be fair to the writers they have made some effort to make the face to face interactions with Cas and Mary more balanced this season. For instance we had the incredible (IMO) scene where Sam reaches out by giving Mary John's journal so she can fill in the blanks at the end of Momma Mia. We had a similar scene of Sam reaching out during Stuck In the Middle (With You). Then it was Sam who was with her at the Man of Letters base of operations during The Raid. In regards to Cas, this is more from Cas' end of things, but we've had him profess his love for them both as family, he regards them both as essential to the world not just Dean, and when they reunite after the brothers break out from prison they both share hugs with Cas (and Mary for that matter). 

P.S: The paranoid guy in the van was called Frank. The two most prominent reaper females have been Tessa and Billie. 

P.S.S I'm indulging in some Jared / Sam fanboying, but I have to say Jared's acting during that scene with Samantha Smith in Momma Mia was amazing. He totally sold Sam's wide eyed awe and awkwardness perfectly! One of his best scenes this season IMO

Edited April 27, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, dragonsbite said:

I haven't watched this Season past the first couple of episodes.  The last few seasons have been sub-par, which turned me off completely. Basically, I hung in there season after season in hope. But nothing has lived up to the line, "I gripped you tight and raised you from perdition."

Today, I decided to read some of the comments about this episode to decide whether I should watch or delete the recordings for this season.  I'm still on the shelf. Is it really worth continuing to invest my hopes in this show?

Honestly, I would watch the Asa Fox episode to decide if you want to continue. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

54 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The paranoid guy in the van was called Frank. The two most prominent reaper females have been Tessa and Billie. 

Thanks! Tessa was the reaper I meant. 

I am still relatively new here and I'm struggling to get used to the much more rigid structure. This place has loads of advantages over my old board, but there anyone could (and did) start any topic on anything, and the only policing of whether the discussion stayed on topic was done by the OP. Dozens of new threads were set up every day. Some thrived some got few responses. Chaotic in some ways, but it had its benefits and I must admit I miss it.

It will just take me some time to adjust I guess. 

Re the topic; yes Sam has had a couple of good scenes with Mary. So has Dean. His heartbreaking 'I never was a kid' response was amazing acting. But my point was about it always being Dean who kept in touch with her - playing games over the phone, texting her, Sam asking 'have you heard from mom'....a bit odd and (particularly given the great scene you mentioned) totally inexplicable in story terms. 

Re Cas you are right. His relationship with the boys has been portrayed very evenly this season, and has been for quite a while now. The issue is that some fans simply don't acknowledge that so everything to do with Cas is all about Dean. So people are saying 'why didn't Cas tell DEAN' where he was going, or seen to believe only Dean has been worried about Cas. Cas hasn't been only all about Dean (if he ever was - a debate for another day) for years but some don't recognise that he cares about both brothers and vice versa. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[SueB]

I find this to be the BEST episode of the season. But it's not everyone's cup of tea.  If you don't like Quintin Tarrantino, this is not your episode.

Go for Asa Fox.

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I don't know, I don't like Tarrantino and I enjoyed the episode--more or less. Didn't care for the melodrama, but the structure of the episode and the ensemble nature of it put it in the win column for me. I'd say this episode is pretty even with Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox. 

[catrox14]

I like Tarentino films quite a bit. That's not why I didn't like this episode. I didn't think the use of Tarentino style of benefit to the story here.  

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Spoilers..." thread (no spoilers):

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm not arguing that Castiel doesn't care for both :) .

I only referred to Dean in particular because, as far as I can recall, all the on screen phone  calls involving Cas this season have been between Dean and Castiel. The fact that we also have Sam often asking "have you heard from Cas?" also suggests that this is the case off screen. 

Which is sort of weird in a way, because despite the fact that in season 5 Castiel was arguably still closer to Dean than Sam, it was fairly equal who Castiel called on the cell phone and vica versa (even early in the season*)... at least before they started using prayer more often as a communication medium. After that Castiel communication via prayer was originally more Dean (because Sam was soulless and Cas had guilt) but then eventually became more equal later on until Castiel got amnesia in season 7... and then season 8 everything went wonky.

* In "Good God, Y'All" it was Sam Castiel called. And for some reason in "Free to Be You and Me" Castiel instead chose to ask Bobby where Dean was and popped in on Dean unexpectedly instead of calling him, but they are talking by phone by "The End."  It's unclear who calls Castiel in "I Believe the Children...", but it's Sam who asks Cas "I take it you got our message?" in "Abandon All Hope" it's Dean on the phone with Castiel. Dean calls again in "My Bloody Valentine." Cas contacted Dean - via radio in "Dark Side..." But in "99 Problems" it was Sam doing all the Cas calling again and Sam Cas showed up to (the amusing "I found a liquor store ... and I drank it" exchange.) Cas calls Dean in "Two Minutes to Midnight." So there's a slight advantage to Dean, but for the most part the communication is to both brothers.

[Diane]

5 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

I haven't watched this Season past the first couple of episodes.  The last few seasons have been sub-par, which turned me off completely. Basically, I hung in there season after season in hope. But nothing has lived up to the line, "I gripped you tight and raised you from perdition."

Today, I decided to read some of the comments about this episode to decide whether I should watch or delete the recordings for this season.  I'm still on the shelf. Is it really worth continuing to invest my hopes in this show?

I would but then I have really enjoyed the last 2 seasons including this one.

[Wayward Son]

8 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

I haven't watched this Season past the first couple of episodes.  The last few seasons have been sub-par, which turned me off completely. Basically, I hung in there season after season in hope. But nothing has lived up to the line, "I gripped you tight and raised you from perdition."

Today, I decided to read some of the comments about this episode to decide whether I should watch or delete the recordings for this season.  I'm still on the shelf. Is it really worth continuing to invest my hopes in this show?

I'd say like everyone else you should try watching some of the highlights of the season so far and see how you find it! If you don't enjoy those then I doubt you'll enjoy it overall. Since I don't know what you like best about the show I'm just going to list my personal favourites along with some details on what I feel like their best strengths are.

 

I personally enjoy all three of the episodes used to introduce the season i.e Keep Calm and Carry on,  Momma Mia, and The Foundry. If I had to pick one though I'd suggest watching the Foundry. It has an interesting case of the week and great characterisation for the characters involved. It also features an important scene that will shape the nature of Mary's relationship with the brothers for the rest of the season. 

 

American Nightmare - This is a really good and creepy MOTW. If you're the type of fan who watches for the horror aspect of the show I imagine you'll love this one. It also contains some interesting call backs to Sam's history. 

 

Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox - This is another episode I'd describe as more stand alone than related to the mytharc. However, it has enjoyable characterisation for both brothers in particular Dean. It also gives us a preview of the wider hunting community and their perception of the brothers. So if you enjoy good character beats and world expansion this should be a fav. 

 

Lily Sunders Has Some Regrets - This is another episode that's primarily MOTW. However, this time the focus is largely on Castiel and his connection to the guest character mentioned in the episodes title. If you're a Castiel fan you should enjoy this one, as it gives us new information about his history and explores just how much he has changed since he met Sam and Dean. This is one of my top three of the season so far.

 

Regarding Dean- Another monster of the week, but the focus is centred on Dean who has been cursed and begun to lose his memory. This is a great episode to watch if you're a Dean fan or a bi-bro fan, as Jensen really knocks it out of the park when it comes to portraying Dean's fears and Jared does a similarly good job of conveying Sam's worry over Dean. This is one of my top three of the season so far.

 

Stuck In the Middle (With You) - This ones a mytharc heavy episode, so if you're a big mytharc fan then this is one you ought to enjoy. I also feel that this is a fun episode for those watching for all of the main cast i.e J2 and M2, as it has a (rare for SN) ensemble feel to it and they all get a key role to play too. There is also some controversial scenes involving the character of Mary. This is one of my top three of the season so far. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Boopsahoy]

I'm just finding it hard to believe that Mary hasn't seen Ketch's psycho side yet. Dean saw it after just one hunt with him. It sounds like she hunts with him everyday. Does that mean she HAS seen it and doesn't care?

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Boopsahoy said:

I'm just finding it hard to believe that Mary hasn't seen Ketch's psycho side yet. Dean saw it after just one hunt with him. It sounds like she hunts with him everyday. Does that mean she HAS seen it and doesn't care?

Yeah, it seems like Mary should've keyed in to Ketch by now. Probably more likely that it's showing how far she'll go in this naive attempt to rid the world of monsters, but since Grampy Campbell wasn't always on the up-and-up, perhaps this is more how the Campbell's circle of hunters worked? So she thinks that's how hunters operate? Perhaps that's one reason she always wanted out of the life? If that's the case, too bad she didn't stick with Sam and Dean a learn there are different ways to live the life. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, Boopsahoy said:

I'm just finding it hard to believe that Mary hasn't seen Ketch's psycho side yet. Dean saw it after just one hunt with him. It sounds like she hunts with him everyday. Does that mean she HAS seen it and doesn't care?

The only way for me to like Mary after all this is to learn that she KNOWS it and she's playing her own dangerous long game with him.  But because the show hasn't bothered to show or tell this, it's looking like Mary is either in denial or she's okay with it.

[Aeryn13]

We had a scene a couple of episodes back where she was fighting some monsters with the fancy gadgets (blowing up Rugaru brains, was that it?) and Ketch stood behind her with a stopwatch and gloated. It was very apparent that both enjoyed the violence and how it was perpetrated - aka that the deaths were torturous for the monsters. So IMO Mary had no problem with that side of the BMOL, hence she probably doesn`t even think much of Ketch`s psycho side.

The thing she didn`t realize in this scene was that she performed like a trained little monkey for him/them.  

Additionally, Ketch made it clear that witness "civilians" like the soldiers at the Black Ops Prison were to be executed. He said that in earshot of everyone so I don`t know why anyone is still mystified as to the "kill first, then kill more later" BMOL way.

The only thing they don`t know is stuff like Horror Hogwarts.    

So IMO Mary doesn`t have much of a problem with Ketch so far because she isn`t that far removed from his way of thinking. That wasn`t true of her younger self from what we saw and previously I wouldn`t have thought it was true about Pilot!Mary but the resurrected version appears to have ice-water in her veins. Bad Amara, baaaad. 

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

The only way for me to like Mary after all this is to learn that she KNOWS it and she's playing her own dangerous long game with him.  But because the show hasn't bothered to show or tell this, it's looking like Mary is either in denial or she's okay with it.

 

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

So IMO Mary doesn`t have much of a problem with Ketch so far because she isn`t that far removed from his way of thinking. That wasn`t true of her younger self from what we saw and previously I wouldn`t have thought it was true about Pilot!Mary but the resurrected version appears to have ice-water in her veins. Bad Amara, baaaad. 

The only way they can in any way redeem her to me has more to do with the bolded part of Aeryn's post here, in that, to me, she'd have to have been brought back "wrong" or with something off about her, but I'm 99.99999...% sure that they aren't going there.

I think that her redemption will more likely come in the same/similar form that they believe they "redeemed" John in IMTOD-by sacrificing her life for her sons. Just one more sentence to add that I will take to the spoilers and spec thread...

Edited April 27, 2017 by Myrelle

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

It was very apparent that both enjoyed the violence and how it was perpetrated - aka that the deaths were torturous for the monsters. So IMO Mary had no problem with that side of the BMOL, hence she probably doesn`t even think much of Ketch`s psycho side.

I didn't think Mary enjoyed the violence per se and how it was perpetrated (melting Rugaru brains) so much as that the efficiency of the weapon meant that she - as the ordinary human versus a stronger-than-human-monster (according to the Supernaturalwiki, Rugarus have  "Superior strength, speed, and aggression.")- was safer and more likely to survive an encounter with a monster and defeat them.  Which, isn't that every hunter's goal?    

Ketch, I agree no doubt enjoyed watching the rugaru writhe in pain, in addition to watching his protégé blossom.

So I'm still not convinced that Mary has really seen Ketch's psycho side - or at least is acknowledging as such if she has seen it.  If we are to believe that Lady DieDiestickaneedleinhereye doesn't like Ketch because he's a psycho - and yet she had a relationship with him, and perhaps a child if speculation on that is correct, and she's the "normal" one ("normal being relative to the BMoL) - then Ketch must be able to conceal his psychosis well enough to fool most people for a time at least.  I don't think he bothered to try as hard while on the hunt with Dean because he erroneously assumed they were alike.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 If we are to believe that Lady DieDiestickaneedleinhereye doesn't like Ketch because he's a psycho - and yet she had a relationship with him, and perhaps a child if speculation on that is correct, and she's the "normal" one 

With what they`ve shown me of her in the first two episodes of the Season, I consider her a stark-raving psycho as well. She took pleasure in the torture and that stunt with the pretending to have had sex as mind control? And the way she gloated about it afterwards? Normal, my ass. And Ketch said the same about her she said about him, that she was a psycho. Which, fair enough. At least he possesses more clarity about his own personality. 

Actually, with the reveal that they dated, the depiction of Mary this Season and Ketch`s fascination with her, I was like "good god, are they trying to tell me he has a particular type?" Because I find Season 12!Mary to be kinda the same cold bitch-like that Lady Deadeyes was. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Actually, with the reveal that they dated, the depiction of Mary this Season and Ketch`s fascination with her, I was like "good god, are they trying to tell me he has a particular type?"

Hm...maybe he does.  But maybe just like he misjudged Dean; he's also misjudged Mary.

[FlickChick]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Additionally, Ketch made it clear that witness "civilians" like the soldiers at the Black Ops Prison were to be executed. He said that in earshot of everyone so I don`t know why anyone is still mystified as to the "kill first, then kill more later" BMOL way. 

I don't recall that Ketch made those statements while the boys/Mary were still with him. I thought only the audience was aware that the killing took place. I could be wrong of course; I'll have to rewatch that scene.

[MysteryGuest]

The BMOL didn't say they should have killed the soldiers, they just questioned Sam and Dean about leaving witnesses behind.  Sam said they'd handle it, and that was that.  Under normal circumstances, that would have been a major red flag to both Sam and Dean, but not this season.

Considering Mary was a hunter over 30 years ago, is it possible that she's simply not "evolved" enough to see the gray areas where monsters are concerned?  I don't think it's something that John recognized and it was only after Sam and Dean actually encountered some "friendly" monsters that they started to think that way.  And it took Dean even longer than Sam to come around.  Mary hasn't hunted enough with her sons to have any idea what sort of hunters they are, or what experiences they've had.  She could just be old school where the only good monster is a dead monster.  At least this is how I justify her behavior to myself when she seems to be enjoying the torturous kill a bit too much for my taste.

[SueB]

Continuing my S12 "The Road So Far" rewatch, I tried to do a quick look at Cas' S12 arc before tonight's 100th Cas episode.

Since it's all about Cas, I've put it in his thread: Cas In S12

[SueB]

Answering "what is the point of S12 question" (edited from Spoiler thread, there are no spoilers here):
 

I think BOTH Sam and Dean have had an awesome character year.  Yes, neither is suffering from some form of Supernatural influence.  Works for me.

Instead, this year is about:
- Dealing with the return of Mary. It's not going well, but we are getting character insights.  
- Establishing more cohesion b/w American Hunters 
- The Scoobies (Team Free Will plus Crowley/Rowena) stopping Lucifer from wrecking havoc -- again, not going well as Crowley seems in over his head and the rest of the Scoobies don't know.  
- The impact of Human/Angel relationships. Some are great (TFW). Some are toxic (Lily/Isham). Some may produce a savior or a destroyer.

And it's got a macro theme of nature vs nurture:
- Lucifer wasn't born bad, his petty jealousy has driven him over the edge
- Mary thinks "nuture" has given her boys a tragic life, she want's them to be free to be.
- Kelly is presuming the baby is "good" and Cas can nurture a savior.

Big series-level SPN themes still playing out and evident in the spoilers:
- Family is what matters - and it don't end in blood
- Black and White is naive - doing the right thing involves trusting in the goodness of people/beings (i.e. BMOL rigid code sucks)
- Humans can be much worse monsters than monsters are

I see Sam and Dean ALL throughout this year.  Their biggest storyline: the IMPACT they are having on the world.  Hunters, Angels, Demons, MoL, individual people.  These guys are changing lives. Daily.

[Katy M]

15 hours ago, Diane said:

Watching again tonight and when Sam and Dean are talking in the car at night, when Sam is talking it's daylight out his window and when Dean is talking it's night with a moon. Just noticed this.

In the Baby thread, @Diane said that when Sam was talking it was day and then when Dean was talking it was night.  That reminded me that throughout the whole series, the day/night timeline seems ridiculous at time.  I realize that sometimes they have to wait until night to do whatever, but then there are other times, that you're just like, what have you been doing all day that it's night now.

For instance in Skin, it's dawn, they follow the sirens to Alex's house, go down into the sewer, come out to grab gear, go back and chase the shifter out into the night. 

In Pilot, Dean asks Sam if he wants breakfast and then gets arrested. Sam goes to interview Joseph Welch.  Dean is still in the sheriff's office being questioned.  Sam makes a call that somehow leaves the cops no choice but to leave completely alone and handcuffed to a desk since there are apparently no cells in that jail house, and anyway, it's night.  Why did that take all day? 

On the flip side, in Time Is on My Side, Dean is eating lunch and still has time to drive from PA to Vermont, have a conversation with Rufus, threaten Bella and toss her room, drive back to PA, save Sam tie up th ebad guy, wait for him to wake up and dig a grave before the next morning.  Erie is on the western end of PA.  Canaan is in the northern part of Vermont.  That is at least an 8.5 hour drive one way.  At least.  So, if we assume Dean was eating an early lunch at 11:00 a.m, and drives fast and gets to Rufus's at 7:30 pm., takes 30 mintues to talking to him(and from the looks of how comfy they were, I'm saying no less than that and another 30 mintues finding and talking to Bela, then gets back to Erie at 5:00 am., he has about an hour to find Sam, knock the guy out with chloroform, wait for him to wake up, chain him up and dig a complete grave before it starts getting light.  I know there's two of them, but seems iffy.  And, he's going to have to fly to make that 8.5 hour drive time.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I know there's two of them, but seems iffy.  And, he's going to have to fly to make that 8.5 hour drive time.

My head!canon is that Baby has an FTL (Faster Than Light )jump drive in her trunk.

[Katy M]

In The Future thread @catrox14 said:

Quote

I wonder if he knocked them out in order to erase their memories. :(

Which made me realize that in Season 6, Cas could have made his life a whole lot easier.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

In The Future thread @catrox14 said:

Which made me realize that in Season 6, Cas could have made his life a whole lot easier.

He seriously could have LOL.

[SueB]

After doing an "up til now" S12 binge watch, I'm trying to sort out what the BMoL motives are, and I think it's "relevance".  Without monsters to hunt, they have very little to do to justify their continued existence.  And in the meantime, the last 3 or 4 near-earth ending disasters were all centered out of the United States. WORSE, hunters were the ones who were 'saving the day'. 

I bet that really pisses them off.  It's a classist thing.  They spend YEARS studying. They dedicate their lives doing research and living in secrecy.  And off in America, all the big events are happening. Without their input.

It reminds me a lot when Buffy told the Watcher's Council that she wasn't working for them anymore.  They became irrelevant.  Pissed them off.  And they started listening to her.

Go back to what FINALLY triggered the BMoL invasion.  It was the sun being 'cracked'.  You can just HEAR them muttering thru their rigid jaws about 'unwashed hunters breaking the universe.'  They missed out on the Big Apocalypse, Godstiel, the Leviathan threat, and now the Darkness.  So, who are the "players':

"The Old Men" -- one of which is Not!Delores Umbridge. She needs to die painfully .  But she seems human enough.  We really don't know enough about them to say more than "old-fashioned'.

Lady Tony - who said, directly, to Mick that the American Hunters (especially Sam and Dean) need to be put down.  Now you've got evil Headmistress agreeing with her.  

Mick - he seems like the hard working guy who pitched a 'let USE the hunters' campaign.  He came with money, intel resources, and Mr. Ketch in hand. And he was killed for going "native" and rejecting The Code.

Ketch - psychopath with a purpose.  He seems to be just here for the bloodletting.  But he clearly hates Sam and Dean enough (penis envy, I'm calling it now), that he wants them dead even if it wasn't ordered.

In short, they want to retain their society and relevance so they want to take over American supernatural activity.  

[auntvi]

21 hours ago, SueB said:

Lady Tony - who said, directly, to Mick that the American Hunters (especially Sam and Dean) need to be put down.  Now you've got evil Headmistress agreeing with her.

She was so vicious to Sam that I wonder if there's another reason for her.  Or she and Ketch are the match made in Hell.

[SueB]

Toni definitely feels like "legacy" and old money. Perhaps she's in training to be one of the Old Men some day.  But, EVOL. 

[Wayward Son]

Random question; have JDM and Samantha Smith ever shared a proper scene together? I mean other than when Mary spots John sitting on the couch during the opener of Pilot. 

[Aeryn13]

When she is with the children in Sam`s nursery and John comes in? But I think they only pass each other and she asks John - who has scooped up Dean - "you got him?" To which he replies in the affirmative. Beyond that, I can`t think of them ever trading dialogue in the show.  

[Wayward Son]

Thanks Aeryn :) . 

[Wayward Son]

This is from the Twigs and Twines and Tasha Banes thread in regards to potential complaints about the cast consisting of five white males. 

25 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

But how do you really fault the show for hiring the people that got the most positive reactions from the audience. I don't have a clue. I also wish they had done things differently for the twins family.

I'm not entirely convinced this is still the case with Mark Pellegrino / Lucifer anymore. Back in season 5 he was definitely very popular and well received! However, from what I've seen of fans on here, on Twitter and tumblr, and in comments to articles about the show, most fans now seem to be tired of the character and want him written out. I wouldn't be surprised if his promotion was to keep him tied to the show until they're finished with Lucifer due to Pellegrino's steady stream of work outside the show. 

IMO if they wanted to promote someone Ruth Connell (Rowena) or Samantha Smith (Mary) would have been smarter choices. Ruth / Rowena seems to be popular with the fans and she has been a pretty regular recurring character for the past three seasons. While they've been using Samantha as a regular in all but name this season so far. For instance she has appeared in more episodes than Misha and the same number as Mark Shepherd. So a promotion for her would have been very natural. 

@auntvi

Quote

9 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Mary's been in at least 10 episodes this season, so instead of 100% white male, it's only ~ 85% white male.  ;)

I'd agree that she has been a regular in all but name this season. Funnily enough I actual mention that in my reply to @Idahoforspn above! However, she is still officially credited as a guest star and not as one of the main cast. At the moment the main cast consists of 

 

Jensen Ackles (Lead) 

Jared Padalecki (Lead) 

Misha Collins (Series Regular) 

Mark Shepherd (Series Regular) 

Mark Pellegrino (Series Regular) 

 

That is why if you watch the credits at the start of the episode they will say

 

Starring Jared Padalecki, Jensen Ackles, Mark Shepherd, Mark Pellegrino and Misha Collins.* 

Then there's a pause before they add 

Special Guest Star Samantha Smith.

 

* As series regulars rather than leads Misha, Mark P and Mark S' names only appear at the beginning of the episodes they actually appear in. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

This is from the Twigs and Twines and Tasha Banes thread in regards to potential complaints about the cast consisting of five white males. 

I'm not entirely convinced this is still the case with Mark Pellegrino / Lucifer anymore. Back in season 5 he was definitely very popular and well received! However, from what I've seen of fans on here, on Twitter and tumblr, and in comments to articles about the show, most fans now seem to be tired of the character and want him written out. I wouldn't be surprised if his promotion was to keep him tied to the show until they're finished with Lucifer due to Pellegrino's steady stream of work outside the show. 

IMO if they wanted to promote someone Ruth Connell (Rowena) or Samantha Smith (Mary) would have been smarter choices. Ruth / Rowena seems to be popular with the fans and she has been a pretty regular recurring character for the past three seasons. While they've been using Samantha as a regular in all but name this season so far. For instance she has appeared in more episodes than Misha and the same number as Mark Shepherd. So a promotion for her would have been very natural. 

Count me as one  who wishes Mark P never made an appearance after Season 5.Back in the day, I liked Rufus. More contemporaneously, if they wrote her better Mary has some potential.

[MysteryGuest]

If I'd had my way, both Bobby and Rufus would still be alive, and Lucifer would be long gone.  I know some people had issues with Bobby, but I really liked him.  And his crotchety relationship with Rufus was just plain fun to watch.  I think adding Mary into that mix could have been interesting.  

I enjoy Rowena, especially now that she's sort of gone straight.  I'm hoping we'll see her again this season.  I wonder if we'll get another "all hands on deck" final episode like last season? I would think they'd need her if they're going to try to take Lucifer down, and I love when the whole team is together.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

If I'd had my way, both Bobby and Rufus would still be alive, and Lucifer would be long gone.  I know some people had issues with Bobby, but I really liked him.  And his crotchety relationship with Rufus was just plain fun to watch.  I think adding Mary into that mix could have been interesting.  

I enjoy Rowena, especially now that she's sort of gone straight.  I'm hoping we'll see her again this season.  I wonder if we'll get another "all hands on deck" final episode like last season? I would think they'd need her if they're going to try to take Lucifer down, and I love when the whole team is together.

I couldn't stand Rowena in the beginning. The acting was so over the top for me. Actor has toned it down quite a bit so I have liked her in some of the more recent episodes.

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I couldn't stand Rowena in the beginning. The acting was so over the top for me. Actor has toned it down quite a bit so I have liked her in some of the more recent episodes.

I totally agree with this.  She was awful in the beginning and I wanted her gone.  It made Crowley look pathetic that he would have allowed her to stick around as long as she did.  But once he'd kicked her out, she started to change and I began to enjoy her portrayal.  

[auntvi]

7 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Special Guest Star Samantha Smith

It would be interesting to see if her $$ per episode is anywhere in the neighborhood of the regulars' salaries.

I'll let it go now......