All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, ilovedean27 said:

2. The Lucifer/Kelly/Nephilim storyline is my least favorite of any storyline in the history of the show.

4. I found the first few episodes interesting and I was more than ready to see how the relationship between Dean and Mary would evolve, but I've since lost any sympathy I once had for Mary, so the character and her relationship with Dean no longer interest me.

5. "Regarding Dean" is my favorite episode of the season, so far. I also liked "Asa Fox" and certain Dean related moments in a few other episodes, but for the most part, most episodes haven't been all that great, in my opinion.

6. I like Cas, but unfortunately, he's tied up in the Lucifer/Kelly/Nephilim/Angels storyline, and as I said earlier, I dislike that storyline. It would be nice if they included Cas in more MOTW episodes.

I agree with all of these points. I'm over Lucifer and any storyline in which he's the focus despite the fact that I've enjoyed Mark Pellegrino in other projects. Cas has been sidelined horribly this season and random shots of them leaving him voicemails doesn't make up for the extended absence of the character. I agree most of all with your point about Mary. They should have left her in heaven; bringing her back hasn't done any favors for the character's overall legacy and has brought unnecessary angst to both Dean and Sam.

3 hours ago, auntvi said:

Bobby went to Hell and that was after Crowley gave him his soul back. Of course Bobby wasn't supposed to go to Hell - Crowley grabbed him and sent him to Hell.

This is the only instance that I can recall also.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I always figured that was a deal with a crossroads demon.  According to the superwiki: "Crowley says he was a 17th century Scottish tailor named Fergus MacLeod from Canisbay who sold his soul in life for three more inches in length on his penis, to hit "double digits.""

 

I see conflicting information also in SuperWiki.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Deals_and_Pacts#Deals_with_Demons

Quote

 

Crowley

As a human, Crowley's name was Fergus MacLeod. He was a tailor living in Scotland, and one day made a deal with a demon for "in exchange for an extra three inches below the belt" i.e. a longer dick. After his death, Fergus went to Hell and was transformed into a demon who took the name Crowley.

 

Okay I checked the transcript and it looks like Crowley sold his soul according to Bobby in Weekend at Bobby's.

Hmmm then why didn't the demon come for him in 10 years...

Quote

 

BOBBY: (walking toward Crowley) I know it all now. Fergus. You may be king of the dirt bags here but, in life, you were nothing but a two-bit tailor who sold his soul in exchange for an extra three inches below the belt.

CROWLEY: Just trying to hit double digits. (Bobby smiles at Crowley) So, you got a glimpse behind the curtain. And?

BOBBY: And – now I know where you’re planted.

 

So if that's the case why didn't the demon come for him until after he died...Curious.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So if that's the case why didn't the demon come for him until after he died...Curious.

I think it might be just a case of the writers not remembering what was written previously at that point.

And Crowley grabbed Bobby - which kind of makes sense to me.  We haven't seen a soul just end up in Hell because they were a 'bad person' or even because they made a deal with a demon which didn't involve selling their soul, as far as I know.  Unless I'm wrong about that?

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So if that's the case why didn't the demon come for him until after he died...Curious.

I'm not sure what you're seeing in those exchanges that implies the demon didn't come for him?

I always figured Crowley got his three extra inches for 10 years and then the hellhounds came for him, his soul went to Hell and his body was buried just like Dean's was.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure what you're seeing in those exchanges that implies the demon didn't come for him?

I always figured Crowley got his three extra inches for 10 years and then the hellhounds came for him, his soul went to Hell and his body was buried just like Dean's was.

Because I was going off the summary that said Crowley didn't go to Hell until he died, which I thought meant a natural death not death by Hellhound.

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think it might be just a case of the writers not remembering what was written previously at that point.

And Crowley grabbed Bobby - which kind of makes sense to me.  We haven't seen a soul just end up in Hell because they were a 'bad person' or even because they made a deal with a demon which didn't involve selling their soul, as far as I know.  Unless I'm wrong about that?

That implies that ALL the souls in Hell are only there because they all sold their souls. That doesn't make sense for me.

Abaddon was manufacturing souls. Those people didn't sell their souls. She took them out of people who hadn't sold their souls. 

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Because I was going off the summary that said Crowley didn't go to Hell until he died, which I thought meant a natural death not death by Hellhound.

I assume Crowley either died naturally before the 10 year time table or hellhounds killed him when the deadline was up. Either way, he didn't go to Hell until after he died.

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

We haven't seen a soul just end up in Hell because they were a 'bad person' or even because they made a deal with a demon which didn't involve selling their soul, as far as I know.

There was the guy who robbed the convenience store in Appointment in Sumarra that Dean said he was probably going downstairs.

I think it's been heavily implied true believers are granted a place in Heaven despite their sins--who was it Raphael was saying was granted a place in Heaven due to his devotion...Ken Lay?--and others earn their way to either Heaven or Hell. I'm guessing there are many souls in Hell who didn't sell their soul, but did something to end up there. I don't know that we've explicitly seen that though.

Edited April 18, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

I'm guessing there are many souls in Hell who didn't sell their soul, but did something to end up there.

That's why I think Mary should really have gone to Hell.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure what Mary did should condemn her to hell.  She didn't have any idea what Yellow Eyes wanted, and she didn't sell her soul.  I think if she had known what his intensions were toward her unborn child, her decision might have been different.  She made a desperate deal to save the life of the man she loved, after losing him and both of her parents in about a 2 minute span.  I can't really fault her too much.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's why I think Mary should really have gone to Hell.

Personally, I'm not sure I'd condemn her to Hell, but the rules of the universe can be very unbending at times. I guess it depends on how literal you define "sin." Making a deal with a devil in and of itself is a sin, but she did it to save another and didn't intentionally mean for it to harm anyone, so... .

You could drive yourself nuts with these things. ;)

Edited April 18, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure what Mary did should condemn her to hell.  She didn't have any idea what Yellow Eyes wanted, and she didn't sell her soul.  I think if she had known what his intensions were toward her unborn child, her decision might have been different.  She made a desperate deal to save the life of the man she loved, after losing him and both of her parents in about a 2 minute span.  I can't really fault her too much.

I don't fault her choice. I'm just saying there should have been a bigger consequence for her deal. I'm not advocating for Mary to be in Hell. This all spawned from my comment about why I don't see how she could have taken out of Heaven and no one notices or alerted Hannah and the Heaven Jailers (new band name) .

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Making a deal with a devil in and of itself is a sin, but she did it to save another and didn't intentionally mean for it to harm anyone, so... .

I guess maybe the question is whether she did it to save John for John's sake or because she couldn't live without him. 

[MysteryGuest]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I don't fault her choice. I'm just saying there should have been a bigger consequence for her deal. I'm not advocating for Mary to be in Hell. This all spawned from my comment about why I don't see how she could have taken out of Heaven and no one notices or alerted Hannah and the Heaven Jailers (new band name) .

I'm guessing that God and Amara have an "all access" pass to Heaven and can pretty much do whatever they want.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I guess maybe the question is whether she did it to save John for John's sake or because she couldn't live without him. 

I'd guess it's a little bit of both. Just like Dean's deal wasn't entirely altruistic; he didn't do it for Sam's sake as much as his own need not to feel like he'd failed John and himself. I would think Mary did it both because she felt responsible for John's death and wanted him to have a chance to live while also selfishly just wanting John alive so she wasn't alone.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm guessing that God and Amara have an "all access" pass to Heaven and can pretty much do whatever they want.

Sure. I wasn't saying otherwise. But like I said up thread in my original thoughts is that IMO Guck would not do it.

I don't think Amara would be welcome in Heaven. She killed a lot of angels.  Someone would notice Mary was missing and it would have been questioned. 

It just doesn't make any sense to me like I put in my original comment up thread. 

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sure. I wasn't saying otherwise. But like I said up thread in my original thoughts is that IMO Guck would not do it.

I don't think Amara would be welcome in Heaven. She killed a lot of angels.  Someone would notice Mary was missing and it would have been questioned. 

It just doesn't make any sense to me like I put in my original comment up thread. 

Sorry...I must have missed your original post.  Based on the Heaven we saw Bobby in, I would agree that she would be missed.  I'm just not sure what they would do about it.  Do angels have the authority to override a decision of God's or Amara's?  While she might not specifically have any authority in Heaven, I would think that Chuck would have backed up her decision on this one, since he was trying to reconcile with her.  But since they're not in Heaven, and as far as we know they've not been in contact with anyone in Heaven, I honestly have no clue what the protocol is when someone goes AWOL.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'd guess it's a little bit of both. Just like Dean's deal wasn't entirely altruistic; he didn't do it for Sam's sake as much as his own need not to feel like he'd failed John and himself. I would think Mary did it both because she felt responsible for John's death and wanted him to have a chance to live while also selfishly just wanting John alive so she wasn't alone

Dean didn't value himself enough that's for sure, but Dean was raised into Save Sammy at all costs.  He had that pounded into his brain from the day Sam was pushed into his arms.  That was his Prime Directive.  I guess I don't see that as Dean doing it for himself or to prove he didn't let John and himself down. He failed to do his job. This was how he fixed it. But that's a MMV thing for sure.

Mary made some kind of deal with unknown consequences and she died but her death wasn't the exchange for access to Sam. If she hadn't walked into that room, she'd still be alive. Her death was incidental almost.

I dunno, it's murky waters

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sorry...I must have missed your original post.

It's probably a page or so back, but my post was basically about why Mary might have really been in the Empty vs Heaven and it's evolved into this LOL

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's probably a page or so back, but my post was basically about why Mary might have really been in the Empty vs Heaven and it's evolved into this LOL

If she were in the Empty though, would she have memory of being there with her children?  I actually wonder if the Empty is ever going to be referred to again on this show.  That was Billie's big plan for the Winchesters, but now that she's gone...I wonder.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 But since they're not in Heaven, and as far as we know they've not been in contact with anyone in Heaven, I honestly have no clue what the protocol is when someone goes AWOL.  

The protocol for when Bobby escaped was that alarms went off in Heaven. Bobby let all the Bobby's out so he could get away to get Cas into Heaven through door 42 but Bobby clearly paid a price for that because Mannah showed up with minions to deal with Bobby. 

So it seems to me that if the likes of Mary Winchester suddenly disappeared when they were doing security checks, the reaction would have been stronger than with Bobby.  It's a fucking Winchester that got out of Heaven. Someone is gonna be upset about that. But NOTHING!

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

If she were in the Empty though, would she have memory of being there with her children?  I actually wonder if the Empty is ever going to be referred to again on this show.  That was Billie's big plan for the Winchesters, but now that she's gone...I wonder.  

I addressed that in my post. There is nothing to suggest that being in the Empty would erase one's memories. I posited that she was there alone with her memories and nothing else. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's a fucking Winchester that got out of Heaven. Someone is gonna be upset about that. But NOTHING!

Well, to be fair, Heaven is also dealing with Lucifer's Love Child.  Mary being let out on parole (she didn't technically 'escape' since Auntie Amara brought her back) is small potatoes in comparison.  :)

Edited April 18, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
I can't spell Auntie!

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I addressed that in my post. There is nothing to suggest that being in the Empty would erase one's memories. I posited that she was there alone with her memories and nothing else. 

That's a possibility.  If she were in Heaven, and she did disappear, I'm sure it would have sounded alarms, but I wonder if the angels have the ability to take someone back who's actually escaped?  Bobby didn't escape Heaven, he just left his cell.  I'm going to assume it's not a problem they have very often.  I think we're supposed to believe that people wouldn't want to actually get out of Heaven.

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean didn't value himself enough that's for sure, but Dean was raised into Save Sammy at all costs.  He had that pounded into his brain from the day Sam was pushed into his arms.  That was his Prime Directive.  I guess I don't see that as Dean doing it for himself or to prove he didn't let John and himself down. He failed to do his job. This was how he fixed it. But that's a MMV thing for sure.

My point was that I don't believe any of these deals are made entirely altruistically. I would doubt Mary made her deal only because she couldn't live without John, but was both for herself and his sake. Which is the same way Dean sold his soul for Sam and John sold his for Dean, IMO.

Anyway, I think Mary probably got a shot at Heaven simply because she eventually sacrificed herself to save others. Or, it could be that God granted her a reprieve because she was Sam and Dean's mom?

Edited April 18, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Anyway, I think Mary probably got a shot at Heaven simply because she eventually sacrificed herself to save others. Or, it could be that God granted her a reprieve because she was Sam and Dean's mom?

I didn't think Mary should even have a soul left to go to Heaven or Hell if she and the poltergeist canceled each other out like  like Missouri said, which was the original post by @trxr4kids which got me on this train. LOL 

Disembark, Disembark before it all derails!

[rue721]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it's been heavily implied true believers are granted a place in Heaven despite their sins

Ashe said he was in Heaven because he was a "saved." But that's just what Ashe thought, not necessarily the truth of the matter.

BTW what happens to someone who sells his soul, and then is made into a monster before his time is up? Like, if you sell your soul in exchange for ten years, and then become a vampire in year 9, what happens wrt the deal?

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

BTW what happens to someone who sells his soul, and then is made into a monster before his time is up? Like, if you sell your soul in exchange for ten years, and then become a vampire in year 9, what happens wrt the deal?

That's a very good question. That's basically what Sam was trying to get Dean to do in Time is on My Side. I would've been interesting to know if it would've worked. I mean, I don't blame Dean, I wouldn't have done it either, but it is a curious circumstance.

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't think Mary should even have a soul left to go to Heaven or Hell if she and the poltergeist canceled each other out like  like Missouri said, which was the original post by @trxr4kids which got me on this train. LOL 

Well, that's a whole different question than whether she deserved to go to Heaven or Hell. I agree with you she shouldn't have had a soul to go to Heaven, but Death did say that you can never destroy a soul, so maybe Missouri was wrong? I dunno.

Edited April 18, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

BTW what happens to someone who sells his soul, and then is made into a monster before his time is up? Like, if you sell your soul in exchange for ten years, and then become a vampire in year 9, what happens wrt the deal?

I would think you just end up in Purgatory

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Well, that's a whole different question than whether she deserved to go to Heaven or Hell. I agree with you she shouldn't have had a soul to go to Heaven, but Death did say that you can never destroy a soul, so maybe Missouri was wrong? I dunno.

I feel like I should just repost my post. My entire tangent was just me trying to figure out how Mary could have been in Heaven LOL and the reasons why I don't think she should have been at all.

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I would think you just end up in Purgatory

The Crossroads demon who made that deal must be PISSED. Does he still get his commission then? ;)

In general, that would be a pretty big problem for Hell, right? If they keep "buying" all these souls and losing them to Purgatory? Because I would think that the kinds of people who make deals with demons are people who tend to have more interaction with the supernatural than most (since they even know how to make a demonic deal, for one), so you'd think they would have a relatively high attrition rate.

What happens to a human soul when a person becomes a monster, anyway? Like for a Rugaru -- does a potential/pre-Rugaru have a human soul that then is transformed somehow when it becomes a real Rugaru?

I'm curious about whether the nephilism or the half-shifter/half-humans (which all the shifters we've known of so far have been right? Half/half?) have souls. My basic assumption is yes, but no real idea.

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's a very good question. That's basically what Sam was trying to get Dean to do in Time is on My Side. I would've been interesting to know if it would've worked. I mean, I don't blame Dean, I wouldn't have done it either, but it is a curious circumstance.

Yeah, I'm really curious to know what the consequences of that would have been, in retrospect.

But TBH I wouldn't have gone for it, either. The Time Is On My Side guy made the idea look really unappealing, lol.

Although maybe it was such a relatively easy decision for him at the time because they didn't know what Hell was going to be like or what the consequences of going there were going to be. What if Dean had realized that if he become a monster and never went there, he would never break a seal -- would that have changed his decision? (I think it would have made his decision more tortured but I don't think he would have changed it, FWIW).

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Although maybe it was such a relatively easy decision for him at the time because they didn't know what Hell was going to be like or what the consequences of going there were going to be. What if Dean had realized that if he become a monster and never went there, he would never break a seal -- would that have changed his decision? (I think it would have made his decision more tortured but I don't think he would have changed it, FWIW).

Oh yeah, much more tortured, but I think he would've chosen the same. At least he wouldn't be purposely killing people to selfishly hang on to his own life. And, Dean values being human to much, I think.

[rue721]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

And, Dean values being human to much, I think.

Yeah, that's why I think he still would have decided to go out as a human, too.

But then later on, he was willing to take on the MOC. So I guess he was willing to edge up a bit closer to the line of becoming a (powerful) monster rather than a human once he got back from Hell?

Edited April 18, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

In general, that would be a pretty big problem for Hell, right? If they keep "buying" all these souls and losing them to Purgatory? Because I would think that the kinds of people who make deals with demons are people who tend to have more interaction with the supernatural than most (since they even know how to make a demonic deal, for one), so you'd think they would have a relatively high attrition rate

Eh, I don't think that's necessarily true.

I mean think about Bela. She made a deal when she was a kid. Or Robert Johnson who had the deal brought to him and all he wanted was to be a guitarist. Or the guy that sold his soul for his wife who was dying from cancer. 

Or even Lester. He didn't seek out to sell his soul or knew anything about the supernatural. Sam brought it to him.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What happens to a human soul when a person becomes a monster, anyway? Like for a Rugaru -- does a potential/pre-Rugaru have a human soul that then is transformed somehow when it becomes a real Rugaru?

Vampires go to Purgatory. It doesn't matter if they were human previously. They died as a monster so they went to Purgatory.  I don't think the soul changes.  Dean didn't lose his soul because he became a vampire.

[rue721]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I mean think about Bela. She made a deal when she was a kid. Or Robert Johnson who had the deal brought to him and all he wanted was to be a guitarist. Or the guy that sold his soul for his wife who was dying from cancer. 

Bela, for example, was super involved in the supernatural after that, though. She definitely had a higher than normal chance of becoming a monster, because she was placing herself around monsters (and in dangerous situations) all the damn time.

Which I think is pretty much par for the course when you're talking about a population of people who have made a deal with a demon. As a population, I think they ALL would have higher than normal odds of becoming monsters, because they have higher than normal odds of being people who place themselves around monsters (like demons) and in dangerous situations (like selling their souls).

Most of them are still going to die human, because most humans die human in general. But if you're talking about a population that is likely to be relatively vulnerable to turning monster at some point in their lives, I think they fit the bill!

Just saying, if I were Crowley, I would be trying to cut some kind of deal (dunno with whom though!) that once someone sells his soul, he CAN'T become a monster, because his soul now belongs to Hell (or rather, Hell has a lien on his soul. The owner no longer has a free and clear title to it lol).

In theory, he could and perhaps should try to annex Purgatory, too. But if monsters, even formerly or partly human monsters, don't have souls, then dead ones are probably of no use to Hell anyway -- so maybe there would be no point in an annexation.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think the soul changes.  Dean didn't lose his soul because he became a vampire.

I don't get this, though. If you're a monster with an unchanged (human) soul, then wouldn't your (human) soul still go to Heaven or Hell when you die?

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

In theory, he could and perhaps should try to annex Purgatory, too. But if monsters, even formerly or partly human monsters, don't have souls, then dead ones are probably of no use to Hell anyway -- so maybe there would be no point in an annexation.

Crowley already tried to annex Purgatory...didn't work out so well for him, though.

AFAIK, monsters have souls, that's what powers Purgatory and what Cass and Crowley were after in S6. I usually equate them to being mutated souls whereas demons are twisted souls.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

34 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Because I would think that the kinds of people who make deals with demons are people who tend to have more interaction with the supernatural than most (since they even know how to make a demonic deal, for one), so you'd think they would have a relatively high attrition rate.

Bela, for example, was super involved in the supernatural after that, though. She definitely had a higher than normal chance of becoming a monster, because she was placing herself around monsters (and in dangerous situations) all the damn time.

She wasn't when she made the deal though.  I understood your premise was that those who sold their souls were more likely to hang around supernatural things before they sold their soul which is why they would be inclined to sell their souls.

 

I just don't think there is a correlation unless someone decided "Well, I went so far to sell my soul, I might as well get into the muck". 

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't get this, though. If you're a monster with an unchanged (human) soul, then wouldn't your (human) soul still go to Heaven or Hell when you die

How could Dean have been saved from being a Vampire by the cure if his soul was involved?  IMO, the reason becoming a monster is so horrifying is that you can't go to Heaven or Hell because you are a monster and your human soul stays in the monster body.  

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understood your premise was that those who sold their souls were more likely to hang around supernatural things before they sold their soul which is why they would be inclined to sell their souls.

I'm not really being that specific wrt the temporality of it. Before, after, both, I don't care.

I think that if you're someone who sells your soul to a demon, then you are someone who is more likely than average to 1. be exposed to the supernatural 2. take risks. To me, that seems like a population that would be more likely than average to get exposed to and potentially fucked up by a monster -- and therefore to be at greater than average risk to become a monster herself.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

I think that if you're someone who sells your soul to a demon, then you are someone who is more likely than average to 1. be exposed to the supernatural 2. take risks. To me, that seems like a population that would be more likely than average to get exposed to and potentially fucked up by a monster -- and therefore to be at greater than average risk to become a monster herself.

Robert Johnson, the woman who was taken by the hellhound in the Bela episode, the architect, so many people sold their souls simply to get that thing they wanted. They carried on living their lives as normal and they didn't proceed to get deep into supernatural things.  

I'm just not really following your correlation here.

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm just not really following your correlation here.

I don't even know if it can be called a correlation, because it's more like just defining the population we're talking about.

The population of people who have been exposed to and even interacted with supernatural creatures (ie people who sold their souls to demons) are by definition people who are more likely than average to be exposed to and interact with supernatural creatures. Since on average, people are not exposed to or deal with supernatural creatures at all, or at least much less intimately than that.

ETA

People who are exposed to and interact with supernatural creatures are more likely to become monsters (since you usually become a monster through exposure/interaction with monsters).

So the population of people who sold their souls to demons, aka, a population that has a higher than average rate of exposure/interaction with supernaturals, is also likely to have a higher than average risk (and ultimately, rate) of becoming monsters.

Edited April 18, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

I don't even know if it can be called a correlation, because it's more like just defining the population we're talking about.

The population of people who have been exposed to and even interacted with supernatural creatures (ie people who sold their souls to demons) are by definition people who are more likely than average to be exposed to and interact with supernatural creatures. Since on average, people are not exposed to or deal with supernatural creatures at all, or at least much less intimately than that.

It seems to me that most of the people on the show who sold their souls, did so for a particular purpose and did not have further extended contact with the supernatural world. Several people that made deals with Crowley specifically didn't even know they had sold their souls, like the people at Ellie's ranch and they carried on their lives per usual.  If that SSS in the show is extrapolated to the wider number of people, I think it shows the population is less likely to continue expose themselves to more supernatural things.  Conversely,  a teenager who likes to dress up like a vampire, doesn't mean she/he is more likely to sell her soul. 

[rue721]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Conversely,  a teenager who likes to dress up like a vampire, doesn't mean she/he is more likely to sell her soul. 

What?

I think we must be talking past each other.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What?

I think we must be talking past each other.

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that any kind of contact with the supernatural world by someone , in your example sold their souls, whether it's before or after said deal making, that it makes them more likely to have further contact  with supernatural things, making it more likely for them to be a risk to become a monster. 

I'm saying that taking the SSS of the people who sold their souls, who did not have further interaction with the supernatural word, as representative of the larger population,  then it seems to me they are a no more risk to become a monster than anyone else.

Edited April 18, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So if that's the case why didn't the demon come for him until after he died...Curious.

Where was it ever stated that Crowley died by some other method of hell hound?  Or, if he did, that he didn't die before the ten years was up?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From the Spoilers thread:

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So I'm not really seeing how Sam didn't want to join. 

Remember when Mary confessed she was working with the BMoL?  And Sam's reaction to that?  And how he backed up Dean telling Mary to leave the bunker?  That was Sam not wanting to join up.  Also, Sam is still clearly uncomfortable working with these guys based on what we saw in the last ep.  

Sam also did not contact the BMoL behind Dean's back with the express purpose of working with them like you make it sound.  Mary sent him a text saying it was urgent.  He didn't know he was getting a tour and sales pitch until he showed up.  

But sure - agree to disagree. 

[SueB]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sam also did not contact the BMoL behind Dean's back with the express purpose of working with them like you make it sound.  Mary sent him a text saying it was urgent.  He didn't know he was getting a tour and sales pitch until he showed up.  

Exactly.  And he tried to leave halfway through the sales pitch. He didn't really start to pay attention until they showed the stats for all the vamps killed in the Mid-West Region.  Later he talks about killing the Alpha Vamp everytime he justifies working with them, but in the episode, he showed interest (IMO) when he started hearing the kill stats. 

Sam DID consider call (and hangup on) the BMoL for help w/ Lucifer, and they showed up because they suspected trouble. Not telling Dean when he changed his mind is a pretty minor infraction IMO.  Since Sam didn't actually speak to them, I can accept that as not "calling behind Dean's back".  

Sam, IMO, was ONLY swayed by demonstrated results. They screwed up really badly with the Vamps but they showed potential.  I think he went in pretty eyes-open. Mary, OTOH, bought into the weapons' pitch. 

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

From the Spoilers thread:

Remember when Mary confessed she was working with the BMoL?  And Sam's reaction to that?  And how he backed up Dean telling Mary to leave the bunker?  That was Sam not wanting to join up.  Also, Sam is still clearly uncomfortable working with these guys based on what we saw in the last ep.  

Sam also did not contact the BMoL behind Dean's back with the express purpose of working with them like you make it sound.  Mary sent him a text saying it was urgent.  He didn't know he was getting a tour and sales pitch until he showed up.  

But sure - agree to disagree. 

Yes, he told Mary to leave and went to meet Mary and got caught up in a hunt.  At the end of that episode he approached Mick and said "You guys are changing the world, and I want to be a part of that." 

Sam did want to join at that point.   That was what I refering to when I said I didn't agree he didn't want to join.   Sam has seemed gung ho in the episodes following, moving from case to case, and embracing their lore books, toys, and showing interest in Kendricks. 

When I said he contacted them behind Dean's back, it was a reference to Lotus not The Raid. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by ILoveReading

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

When I said he contacted them behind Dean's back, it was a reference to Lotus not The Raid. 

I didn't think that was clear in your original comment.  Still, I agree with @SueB on that point - Sam was only contacting the BMoL in LOTUS for help with Lucifer because he knew they had better gadgets - not to join up and work with them.  And as it turned out, they did have a better gadget which allowed them to expel Lucifer from the president, so Sam was smart to call.  

[Bessie]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think he went in pretty eyes-open. Mary, OTOH, bought into the weapons' pitch. 

Yeah, I don't think Mary's and Sam's decisions to work with the BMoL were in any way equivalent. In this case, sam was not portrayed as some wide-eyed idealist or as a sucker, take your pick.

Dean should be hurt and angry with Mary. Sam? Not so much. As far as I can tell, they're pretty much on the same page. 

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, Bessie said:

As far as I can tell, they're pretty much on the same page. 

Yeah, IMO, they both decided together to work with the Brits. Dean made a conscious decision to work with them even though he didn't trust them. He's just as much in it as Sam and Mary at this point.

If Mary wants to work with the Brits, that's up to her. If Sam wants to work with the Brits, that's up to him. And, if Dean decides to jump off the bridge, even though he doesn't think it's a good idea, just because all his friends are doing it, then I'm not sure he doesn't hold just as much responsibility when he breaks his neck. 

However, IMO, Dean should be hurt and angry with Mary's deception and pushing them away, though, not because she decided to work with the Brits. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From the Spoiler thread:

8 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

In this particular instance(Dean not being heard/listened to when family members disagree with him on something important/world changing-and not just while on random hunts), I think it has been the rule of the house series-long-and I think even JA believes it just going by his acting choices for Dean(and because he can't change the words-or non-words, if you will-in the script), especially in these latter seasons. But yes, agree to disagree. That's fine.

If you would care to enumerate the instances that you think this has happened and why, and how JA's acting substantiates your claim , without hopefully veering into Bitch vs. Jerk, I would be interested in reading that.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean should be hurt and angry with Mary's deception and pushing them away, though, not because she decided to work with the Brits. That's the personal betrayal that's worth someone getting a tongue-lashing over. 

They already adressed this in the vampire episode and it ended up with him apologizing to Mary, making it clear that the stance of the show was he has no right to be hurt or angry with Mary and is instead just being a big, clingy baby who doesn`t respect her personhood while she can do whatever she wants to him. And before that they kinda did the same thing in the psychics episode earlier. I do not wish to see even a third replay of this scenario. 

Quote

And, if Dean decides to jump off the bridge, even though he doesn't think it's a good idea, just because all his friends are doing it, then I'm not sure he doesn't hold just as much responsibility when he breaks his neck. 

I thought it was really stupid when he did it, (jump in the metaphorical sense, that is) but I saw it touted as character growth. So doing the smart thing and peacing out from that would have been wrong? Can`t win there.

Quote

He's just as much in it as Sam and Mary at this point.

Well, neither Dean nor Sam are actually fucking the resident psycho of the organization so I wouldn`t say they are in quite as much.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

If you would care to enumerate the instances that you think this has happened and why, and how JA's acting substantiates your claim , without hopefully veering into Bitch vs. Jerk, I would be interested in reading that.

That's going to be a long one, so it's going to have to wait. Work calls.

 

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They already adressed this in the vampire episode and it ended up with him apologizing to Mary, making it clear that the stance of the show was he has no right to be hurt or angry with Mary and is instead just being a big, clingy baby who doesn`t respect her personhood while she can do whatever she wants to him. And before that they kinda did the same thing in the psychics episode earlier. I do not wish to see even a third replay of this scenario.

I'm so ready for this season to be over because of stuff like this so that I can just try to forget about it-like S8. And I can't feel anything other than dread and/or trepidation(at best) for the rest of the season, at this point. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, neither Dean nor Sam are actually fucking the resident psycho of the organization so I wouldn`t say they are in quite as much.

True, Dat! :)

Although - given Ketch seems to be merely following orders like a good doggy - I wonder if the 'resident psycho' label shouldn't really go to Herr Hess and the other "old men"?

[Bessie]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, IMO, Dean should be hurt and angry with Mary's deception and pushing them away, though, not because she decided to work with the Brits. 

Agreed. All of them are adults and get to make their own decisions.  Their history is just so weird, though, that I can understand if Dean were to have a hard time with Mary's alliance with the BMoL. She's his mother, who he's looked up to all his life and now (in his view) she's screwing up all over the place. And in his mind, that probably includes her work with the BMoL. Wait til he discovers she borrowed a cup of sugar from Ketch!