All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[DittyDotDot]

29 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Redirecting a little bit, this discussion has reminded me of something I've been wondering: is there actually any evidence that John knew anything about Sam's connection with Azazel or the demon blood before season 1? Because I often see that assumed in discussions, but I'm not sure if it is fanon or canon.

Based on what I remember, though, it seems that John didn't know that there was any cause for concern about Sam until the boys themselves told him about the visions. Then Azazel talked about his "special plans" for Sam and the other kids like him in "Devil's Trap." It is also quite possible that he got somewhat more specific before he and John made the deal in "In My Time of Dying."

John had figured out the six-month birthday connection, which might logically have led him to suspect that the demon wanted something with Sam and the other kids, but that had been a recent development; I don't remember any evidence that he knew about the other kids of the first generation like Ava and Andy. In any case, John apparently hadn't known that Mary had been killed by a demon at all until, at earliest, shortly before season 1 began.

I do believe I read an interview with Kripke stating that John knew pretty much everything by the time he disappeared in S1, but I don't know that it was ever explicitly stated in-show exactly what John knew or when he knew it. There was this exchange in In My Time of Dying which suggests John knew quite a bit:

     YELLOW-EYED DEMON: You know the truth, right? About Sammy? And the other children?
     JOHN: Yeah. I've known for a while. 

Again, he doesn't specify, but it does seem he knows enough to I tell Dean to kill Sam if he couldn't save him.

Edited March 24, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

39 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Redirecting a little bit, this discussion has reminded me of something I've been wondering: is there actually any evidence that John knew anything about Sam's connection with Azazel or the demon blood before season 1? Because I often see that assumed in discussions, but I'm not sure if it is fanon or canon.

Based on what I remember, though, it seems that John didn't know that there was any cause for concern about Sam until the boys themselves told him about the visions. Then Azazel talked about his "special plans" for Sam and the other kids like him in "Devil's Trap." It is also quite possible that he got somewhat more specific before he and John made the deal in "In My Time of Dying."

John had figured out the six-month birthday connection, which might logically have led him to suspect that the demon wanted something with Sam and the other kids, but that had been a recent development; I don't remember any evidence that he knew about the other kids of the first generation like Ava and Andy. In any case, John apparently hadn't known that Mary had been killed by a demon at all until, at earliest, shortly before season 1 began.

He took off right before Pilot because he got a lead on the "thing that killed your mother."  So, I've always thought that was the point he knew it was a demon.  But, he may have already known that and just got some other lead.  And, they didn't specify, but I think he must have at least known about the "demon army" thing and that's why he told dean to either save Sam or kill him. Although, some details may have been helpful there, John.  You're dying, you're not going to be around to drip out info the way you've been doing.  I don't think he knew that Sam was supposed to Lucifer's vessel. Honestly, I don't even know if Azazel knew that.  Whether or not he knew that demon blood was dripped in his mouth is anyone's guess.

He must have found out there were other psychic kids like Sam at some point, probably during season 1.  Another interesting thing to know would be exactly what he was doing during season 1 to track down the demon.  Was he just looking for lightning storms and cattle mutilations.  Surely not every lightning storm can be demon sign, can it?  There has to be natural weather, right?  

It's kind of late in the game, but if there was just one thing I would like revealed before the show ends it would be what John knew and when he knew it.  But, it wouldn't really make a lot of sense to tell that story now and I understand that.

[companionenvy]

Okay, that's helpful -- so, he probably knew quite a bit before meeting back up with the boys in late Season 1, but wouldn't (IMO) likely have known much while they were growing up.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It's kind of late in the game, but if there was just one thing I would like revealed before the show ends it would be what John knew and when he knew it.  But, it wouldn't really make a lot of sense to tell that story now and I understand that.

This is something I thought maybe we would learn through Mary's resurrection. I thought we'd get glimpses of her retracing John's life after she died, trying to figure out some of things that happened. But NOPE we got stuck with the stupid BMOL.  Blah

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I watched Asylum, Scarecrow, and Route 666 yesterday.  Had to skip Faith.  I just couldn't deal with watching Dean almost die last night.  It did have the first look at Reapers, so I might have to pick it up.  In one of the episode threads, (I don't remember which one) someone mentioned how they noticed Sam drove a lot more back then.  I noticed that too.  Sam also used to smile a lot more in S1.  I miss that.  Loved Dean climbing and vaulting over the fence in Asylum.  That was bad-ass.  I also noticed that before the FBI badges became standard, they had to come up with a lot more creative ways of talking to people and getting them to talk.  They don't even bother nowadays.  I miss that too.  

[MysteryGuest]

Ok, so I had to watch Home again, since everyone else was.  I personally don't think John had been to see Missouri until after the boys had been to see her.  My guess is he went to her after getting Dean's phone call.  He had said at one point that he was always watching them, but he just wouldn't make contact, so I think that was the case here, too.  

I do  think she definitely had psychic abilities, and could read their thoughts, which is how she knew what Dean was thinking and how she knew that Jessica had died and that John was missing.  She was able to sense that there were 2 separate spirits in the house, but then obviously didn't pick up on the fact that the house wasn't empty after their first attempt to remove the poltergeist.  I don't really have a problem with that though, since I don't think psychic abilities are an exact science.  

She was definitely pretty snarky to Dean, but I don't think it was intended to be as mean-spirited as it sounded.  I could snicker a bit at some of it, but not all.

[rue721]

19 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Maybe Mary was able to go zen and that's why she was able to keep her sanity?

And then when she WHOOSHED out, that was her finding Nirvana? ;)

11 hours ago, SueB said:

ETA:  Maybe if he simply said - 'I had to leave that place behind me, and now you want to go back?'  

 

10 hours ago, mertensia said:

It was a badly written line is the problem. Try saying it out loud. It sounds bad. It would have sounded better to have him say something like "I just don't know if I can go back. I haven't ever been able to go back. I haven't wanted to."

I think that those (suggested) lines mean something different from what Dean said, though.

IMO it's different to swear to yourself that XYZ is not going to happen, as opposed to thinking/saying that you don't want to or maybe can't do something. Swearing to yourself it's not going to happen gives you some power over the situation.

Their whole life as hunters is built on the premise that they are going to save people from going through what they did in Lawrence. That mission has defined their lives. So I can believe that it would be important to Dean (even as a young child) to tell himself that he WILL NOT LET there be another Lawrence, and his Lawrence is DONE. And yeah, swear to himself that he will not go back.

I think the line could have been written a little more gracefully, but at the same time, I think that the sentiment Dean was expressing was pretty specific and conveyed a lot about his character. So maybe it actually was best as it was.

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 It could have just been a thought born of the moment he watched the place he lived in with Mommy and Daddy and Sammy and it's all burning which in his little 4 year old brain = 'This is a bad place. Mommy got hurt forever in that bad place. I don't like it'. Later as he grew older and probably kept having flashbacks to that night and bad dreams of that 'bad place', it became a deeply rooted fear and going back was off limits in his mind. Dean didn't have to articulate it until he was forced to in Home , and that fear was articulated as a promise to himself that he won't go back there.  

That could be, and at the same time, maybe he didn't want to go back partly because of good memories. Presumably, he was pretty happy there as a little boy. It could be pretty tough to look at a place where you were once happy or where you once belonged, knowing that it's all lost to you. He lost his whole life there, in a way, not just his mom. Even John became a new person afterward.

I dunno, there is a zero percent chance that I would have wanted to go back to that house if I were him, so I guess I just sympathize with the sentiment pretty strongly.

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I do believe I read an interview with Kripke stating that John knew pretty much everything by the time he disappeared in S1, but I don't know that it was ever explicitly stated in-show exactly what John knew or when he knew it.

Did John ever find out about Mary's deal? I don't really know or care how much he knew about the psychic kids within the timeframe of S1, but I would be really shocked to learn that he knew about the deal and had dealt with that OK. I mean, I would think that would kind of destroy him. That's something that it would have been interesting to see him learn about.

I do think that it would be possible for the show to explore more about what was going on with John in '83 and shortly after -- they could do a series of flashback eps from his perspective. I would absolutely love that. Don't know if the show would ever do that, but I love the family drama aspect of the show, so I would eat that up with a spoon :) And I'm just so curious about how a regular guy transforms into a monster hunting single father. That just seems like such an interesting story even aside from my deep-seeded love for SPN ;)

Edited March 24, 2017 by rue721
it's deep-seeded, not deep seated, right? because deep seated makes no sense.

[SueB]

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

And then when she WHOOSHED out, that was her finding Nirvana? ;)

 

I think that those (suggested) lines mean something different from what Dean said, though.

IMO it's different to swear to yourself that XYZ is not going to happen, as opposed to thinking/saying that you don't want to or maybe can't do something. Swearing to yourself it's not going to happen gives you some power over the situation.

Their whole life as hunters is built on the premise that they are going to save people from going through what they did in Lawrence. That mission has defined their lives. So I can believe that it would be important to Dean (even as a young child) to tell himself that he WILL NOT LET there be another Lawrence, and his Lawrence is DONE. And yeah, swear to himself that he will not go back.

I think the line could have been written a little more gracefully, but at the same time, I think that the sentiment Dean was expressing was pretty specific and conveyed a lot about his character. So maybe it actually was best as it was.

That could be, and at the same time, maybe he didn't want to go back partly because of good memories. Presumably, he was pretty happy there as a little boy. It could be pretty tough to look at a place where you were once happy or where you once belonged, knowing that it's all lost to you. He lost his whole life there, in a way, not just his mom. Even John became a new person afterward.

I dunno, there is a zero percent chance that I would have wanted to go back to that house if I were him, so I guess I just sympathize with the sentiment pretty strongly.

Did John ever find out about Mary's deal? I don't really know or care how much he knew about the psychic kids within the timeframe of S1, but I would be really shocked to learn that he knew about the deal and had dealt with that OK. I mean, I would think that would kind of destroy him. That's something that it would have been interesting to see him learn about.

I do think that it would be possible for the show to explore more about what was going on with John in '83 and shortly after -- they could do a series of flashback eps from his perspective. I would absolutely love that. Don't know if the show would ever do that, but I love the family drama aspect of the show, so I would eat that up with a spoon :) And I'm just so curious about how a regular guy transforms into a monster hunting single father. That just seems like such an interesting story even aside from my deep-seeded love for SPN ;)

Excellent point.  He clearly knew the 6 month thing an to look for demon sign.  And he clearly tracked YED's movements -- which is why he had a note about Liddy Walsh and the other guy meeting with YED.  So... in theory he could have realized YED both made deals AND YED was connected to the people 10 years later with baby drama.  I mean think about it.  He wasn't HUNTING when YED made those deals.  He had to research to find YED movements. So... as smart as John was, did he never connect those YED deals and the families with special kids?  

But you're right, that would have destroyed him.  So... IDK... is my answer. 

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

Excellent point.  He clearly knew the 6 month thing an to look for demon sign.  And he clearly tracked YED's movements -- which is why he had a note about Liddy Walsh and the other guy meeting with YED.  So... in theory he could have realized YED both made deals AND YED was connected to the people 10 years later with baby drama.  I mean think about it.  He wasn't HUNTING when YED made those deals.  He had to research to find YED movements. So... as smart as John was, did he never connect those YED deals and the families with special kids?  

But you're right, that would have destroyed him.  So... IDK... is my answer. 

I think it's highly suspect that John was able to find out where the YED was at least 10 years after he was there in the first place.  The combine incident?  Like Dean says, stuff like that happens.  If he researched the Liddy Walsh incident well, did he know Dean was there, too?  He must have known Mary was a hunter in that case?  Since no deal was actually completed there, the only way to know about YED would have been to talk to Liddy who would have told him about how the Campbell's came and shot her yellow-eyed doctor.

[DittyDotDot]

40 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think it's highly suspect that John was able to find out where the YED was at least 10 years after he was there in the first place.  The combine incident?  Like Dean says, stuff like that happens.  If he researched the Liddy Walsh incident well, did he know Dean was there, too?  He must have known Mary was a hunter in that case?  Since no deal was actually completed there, the only way to know about YED would have been to talk to Liddy who would have told him about how the Campbell's came and shot her yellow-eyed doctor.

It could just be that John found the same demonic signs surrounding the Walsh farm twice, 10 years apart. Couple that with Liddy Walsh's father suddenly getting better and Liddy having a 6-month-old when the second signs showed up. He may not have interviewed her, but just made note of the common circumstances in the journal. He was supposed to be the master of finding a pattern.

In fact, I'd bet he couldn't interview Liddy because she should've been dead. Yellow Eyes supposedly covered his tracks by killing all Mary's acquaintances and Mary said Liddy was a friend.

I'm always more curious how Yellow Eyes knew all these women would have 6-month-old babies in exactly 10 years?  And/or why he was making so many deals in Lawrence, Kansas? Seems extremely coincidental, almost like someone didn't work it all out ahead of time. ;)

[SueB]

Liddy is dead: 

By interrupting the deal, she got to see YED smoke out.  Grandpa!YED killed her while Mary and Dean talked outside.  Please note, that picture showing Dean's reading the journal was BEFORE Liddy died.  So, yes, Dean warning Samuel resulted in Mary and him interrupting YED, and Dean's arrival resulted in YED smoking out.  So... Dean's presence directly resulted in Liddy's death.  Temporal paradox.

Looking at the other entry about the boy, it seems like John had records of unusual events that indicate YED but at least for THOSE two, he couldn't trace it to children later (at least not easily).  The first incident talks about the weird way the man died but not about his son. And Liddy died so there was no baby.  So, in these two cases, he doesn't have a baby-connection.  

Plus, if in general YED made more deals with women (because it seems like it was the Mom's that died), then the names would likely have been changed.  So, it's be pretty hard to connect previous YED sightings to a baby because the last name would be different.

So... after dragging you through all this.... I think it's a low probability that he connected "deals" to "babies".  His YED data (the two data points we saw) was sketchy and didn't have 'deals' as part of it.  So no 10 year clock.  Plus, his other research seemed to be based on demon sign.  (Note; And why do the poor COWS get mutilated as part of demonic activity??? Huh?  What did they ever do to demons that they are the ones who are slaughtered?  Do the demons go after them or they just spontaneously rip apart?  I'm thinking that's unfair to the cow.). 

[DittyDotDot]

30 minutes ago, SueB said:

So... after dragging you through all this.... I think it's a low probability that he connected "deals" to "babies".

Yeah, I was under the impression he was tracking the babies, not the parents. His concern would be the kids since Sam was one of those kids. But, I also could buy that he may have found those same demonic signs in their history 10 years earlier and put some of it together. Coupled with knowing that something happened that night Mary's father died... .

I'm guessing John didn't want to admit it, but he probably put it together. 

30 minutes ago, SueB said:

By interrupting the deal, she got to see YED smoke out.  Grandpa!YED killed her while Mary and Dean talked outside.

That makes sense. I always figured he must have killed her at that time because she knew too much, but I didn't realize there was confirmation on-screen.

Edited March 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

(Note; And why do the poor COWS get mutilated as part of demonic activity??? Huh?  What did they ever do to demons that they are the ones who are slaughtered?  Do the demons go after them or they just spontaneously rip apart?  I'm thinking that's unfair to the cow.). 

For the blood? Maybe the demons need a big supply of blood for calling "home," etc, and it's easier to get that from a cow than a human (because cows put up zero fight and have a huge blood supply compared to a human being)?

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

And/or why he was making so many deals in Lawrence, Kansas?

What's it called -- reporting bias? Reporter bias? John was the one doing the research on the YED, and he was centering his research around activity in Lawrence, so we know more about the demonic activity in Lawrence than other places (even though there might not actually have been more demonic activity in Lawrence than in other places).

It's also possible that YED made deals (or tried to) with literally every American woman born in 1954 (Mary's birth year, I think?), or every American woman born 1953-1956 or something, with the thought that a large number would have babies around age 30, which would make his 1983-baby-blood-feeding plan work. I mean, who knows what he was about. I don't think we even know the details of his actual plan even now (if he even had a very detailed plan. It was long-term but it might not have been that fully fleshed out beyond that, who knows).

Edited March 25, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What's it called -- reporting bias? Reporter bias? John was the one doing the research on the YED, and he was centering his research around activity in Lawrence, so we know more about the demonic activity in Lawrence than other places (even though there might not actually have been more demonic activity in Lawrence than in other places).

It's also possible that YED made deals (or tried to) with literally every American woman born in 1954 (Mary's birth year, I think?), or every American woman born 1953-1956 or something, with the thought that a large number would have babies around age 30, which would make his 1983-baby-blood-feeding plan work. I mean, who knows what he was about. I don't think we even know the details of his actual plan even now (if he even had a very detailed plan. It was long-term but it might not have been that fully fleshed out beyond that, who knows).

Oh, I was just being silly. We know Yellow Eyes made deals in other places--Eva, Andy, Jake, etc.--but it's a necessity of the plot of In The Beginning that he make many deals around Lawrence because the episode is set in Lawrence, Kansas. It's not like Dean could be running all over the country tracking Yellow Eyes and his deals with the Campbell's in tow and get it all done in one episode.

Basically, I was making a bit of a "only on TV" snark. Sorry, intonation can be hard over the internet.

Edited March 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

Well, we know the "final showdown" was supposed to take place in the cemetery in Lawrence, so maybe Yellow Eyes thought he might as well start close to home so his kids wouldn't have to travel too far.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Plus, if in general YED made more deals with women (because it seems like it was the Mom's that died), then the names would likely have been changed.  So, it's be pretty hard to connect previous YED sightings to a baby because the last name would be different.

I don't think it mattered who made the deal when it came to who died.  It was whether or not anyone disturbed him.  We know that Andy's birth mother made the deal, yet it was Andy's adopted mother who died in the fire.

[DittyDotDot]

From the Faith thread:

7 minutes ago, auntvi said:

UO: I love Missouri. She is the first person they depend on for info - the first expert, the first person who knows who/what Sam & Dean are. She’s strong, warm, knowledgeable. I know, she gave Dean a hard time, but I don’t think she meant it to hurt. Besides, Jensen’s reactions were great. Perhaps she sensed that Dean was the stronger personality and she had to put him back on his heels a bit to maintain her control. I wish she had been in more episodes. I wish she had been in more episodes.

While I'm not too keen on her first appearance--it's not just her interaction with Dean, though--I too was disappointed they never got the chance to flesh out this character more. Pastor Jim is another S1 disappointment to me. We got Bobby in the end, but I always feel like there's more to tell with these two people who knew John when he first was enlightened of the supernatural.

[rue721]

I would have been especially interested in Pastor Jim, because I think the show is actually exceptionally good at portraying/discussing religious faith. (Magda's cartoonish family was the exception IMO). One of my favorite episodes is Houses of the Holy for that reason.

ETA:  LOL maybe that should go in the UO thread, I dunno.

Edited March 25, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

While I'm not too keen on her first appearance--it's not just her interaction with Dean, though--I too was disappointed they never got the chance to flesh out this character more. Pastor Jim is another S1 disappointment to me. We got Bobby in the end, but I always feel like there's more to tell with these two people who knew John when he first was enlightened of the supernatural.

I would have preferred a bit more of Missouri, Pastor Jim and Caleb than all Bobby all the time as it turned out. I preferred Bobby as the curmudgeonly hunter they were friends with who didn't get along with John but I didn't like his elevation to foster Dad.

[auntvi]

"Pastor Jim" is such a great character name! I like the idea of a priest carrying a shotgun loaded with salt shots, running around with them in the Impala, or in a ginormous pick-up like Pastor Gideon in 99 Problems (5.17).

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, auntvi said:

"Pastor Jim" is such a great character name! I like the idea of a priest carrying a shotgun loaded with salt shots, running around with them in the Impala, or in a ginormous pick-up like Pastor Gideon in 99 Problems (5.17).

Not to mention how 99 Problems was set in Blue Earth, Minnesota where Pastor Jim had his church with the basement full of supernatural weapons. Seriously, how was it he wasn't even mentioned in that episode? ;)

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Not to mention how 99 Problems was set in Blue Earth, Minnesota where Pastor Jim had his church with the basement full of supernatural weapons. Seriously, how was it he wasn't even mentioned in that episode? ;)

Yeah, Pastor Jim had only been dead about 5 years at that time.  It was a fairly small town.  The whole thing was revolving around a minister and his daughter.  Pastor Jim's replacement, perhaps?  It bugged me that he wasn't mentioned, too.  If they didn't want to mention him, set it in a different town.  They have entire states they haven't been too yet.

[Wayward Son]

Wasn't too sure whether to put this here or in the media thread! But here is an article I stumbled on this morning listing the best episodes so far this season. 

Quote

“Supernatural”: Our Favorite Episodes of Season 12 So Far 

Over halfway through its twelfth season, Supernatural continues to churn out fresh plot lines, new monsters, and when you thought the Winchesters couldn’t go up against anything worse than God’s own sister- they do. Facing off once again against old threats, and new enemies, we are going to recap my favorite episodes so far. 

Episode 4: American NightmareP

This episode was truly unsettling in the best way. The opening moments kicked off with a stigmata and only got weirder from there in one of those episodes where the monster of the week is not a supernatural being at all. From the horrible torment Magda’s own mother puts her through – to her mother then killing her brother and father – this episode was very chilling and definitely one of the most chilling episodes I’ve seen in a long time. Jared in particular did a really great job with this episode. He truly showed Sam’s empathy to Magda’s situation and the way her mother was treating her as a monster because of similar experiences. This episode was also the introduction to the ominous Mr. Ketch (David Haydn Jones) we’d been hearing so much about in the prior episodes.

Episode 6: Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox

The first high note of this episode was the return of Kim Rhodes as Jody. I love the relationship she has with the boys in how she has become a bit of mother figure to them. Also, seeing Mary hunting on her own when she was younger was interesting because it wasn’t something we’d seen before. In prior seasons, we found out Mary was a hunter, but hadn’t really seen her working a case on her own. Another thing I liked about this episode was it had a feel that many of the episodes in earlier seasons of the show had with a good old fashioned demon possession. It was also interesting to see of all the hunters in attendance at Asa’s wake working together to exorcise the demon Jael after it possessed Jody. We normally don’t see a large group of hunters like that, but seeing them all work together was very cool.

Episode 10: Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets

Another great episode written by Steven Yockey. This episode gave us some of Castiel’s history which is something fans have wanted for a long time. We even got to see Cas in a female vessel- portrayed by Jessa Danielson. The character of Lily Sunder (Alicia Witt) was very well written. At the start of the episode, I was very worried about her because it seemed she was coming for Castiel for revenge, but by the end was very sympathetic to her and hope that the writers will find a way to bring her back. We also got to see a human using Enochian magic which was something we really hadn’t seen before. A few of my favorite scenes from this episode were the banter between Dean and Cas in the car on their way to meet up with Castiel’s former garrison, and the scene outside the diner when Sam shows just how well he knows his brother by correctly predicting Dean will storm in even though Cas asked him not to. 

Episode 11: Regarding Dean

First and foremost I have to say that Jensen was amazing in this episode. From waking up in the woods with a bunny rabbit to that heart wrenching scene in the bathroom when Dean has almost forgotten every aspect of himself, Jensen knocked it out of the park. While Dean forgetting what a lamp was called, who Sam was, and ultimately who he was was hard at times to watch, this episode did have some lighthearted moments like Sam putting post-it notes on everything and Dean being carefree and just enjoying cartoons. Not to mention that bull riding scene.

Episode 12: Stuck in the Middle (With You)

Richard Speight Jr. and Davy Perez are the new dream team. This episode has been one of my favorite episodes in a long time- loaded with references to Tarantino films along with being an overall emotional roller coaster. We got a lot of back story in this episode, too. Learning not only how Crowley became the King of Hell, but also more about the yellow eyed demons. The cast majorly delivered this episode with their performances during some seriously heart wrenching and nerve wracking moments.I was very worried that we were going to lose Castiel for good, but luckily Crowley was there to save the day again. The fight scene between the Winchesters and Ramiel was also a real nail biter right up until Sam finally delivered the killing blow. This episode also really drove home how much character development we’ve seen for Castiel over the past eight seasons. We’ve seen him go from telling Dean that he was a servant of heaven- and only heaven, to telling the Winchesters that he loves them.

For once I actually agree with a "best episode" article! These are probably my favourites so far as well! Although Id have to give the season a rewatch to decide for definite.

http://www.nerdsandbeyond.com/2017/03/24/supernatural-our-favorite-episodes-of-season-12-so-far/

Edited March 28, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Geordiegirl1967]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

For once I actually agree with a "best episode" article! These are probably my favourites so far as well! Although Id have to give the season a rewatch to decide for definite.

I agree with some, not others. I didn't like SitMwY very much. Not enough emotional kick for me. Just felt like an exercise in being clever (Tarantino references etc). Ditto Lily Sunder. It was Ok but fell into the same trap lots have this season where the brothers felt just like set dressing. Wasn't the American Nightmare ep the one where Dean seems to have been wandering around all night then turns up at the end after all the action was over? It was creepy and had lots of good stuff in there but by no means a classic.

I did like Regarding Dean. In a 'best of a bad lot' sort of way it was pretty good. The Asa Fox one is probably the next best on that list for me. But it wouldn't have made my top 5 in a  better year.

[SueB]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Wasn't too sure whether to put this here or in the media thread! But here is an article I stumbled on this morning listing the best episodes so far this season. 

For once I actually agree with a "best episode" article! These are probably my favourites so far as well! Although Id have to give the season a rewatch to decide for definite.

Do you have a link?   Thanks for the info. 

[Wayward Son]

21 hours ago, SueB said:

Do you have a link?   Thanks for the info. 

Hey @SueB, sorry I thought I had included it! My original post has been edited to include the link :)

21 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I agree with some, not others. I didn't like SitMwY very much. Not enough emotional kick for me. Just felt like an exercise in being clever (Tarantino references etc). Ditto Lily Sunder. It was Ok but fell into the same trap lots have this season where the brothers felt just like set dressing. Wasn't the American Nightmare ep the one where Dean seems to have been wandering around all night then turns up at the end after all the action was over? It was creepy and had lots of good stuff in there but by no means a classic.

I did like Regarding Dean. In a 'best of a bad lot' sort of way it was pretty good. The Asa Fox one is probably the next best on that list for me. But it wouldn't have made my top 5 in a  better year.

I can understand why a fan whose focus is on the brothers may not have enjoyed LIly Sunders has Some Regrets and Stuck in the Middle (with You).

However, for those like myself (and I assume the writer of this article) who are just as focused on the character of Castiel and his relationship with the Winchester's these were brilliant episodes. LShSR was a study of Castiel's journey to date. It was a wonderful contrast of how he has changed in terms of being able to admit culpability for his actions and the shift from thinking in terms of the big picture to an understanding that saving the individual when possible is just as important. 

While Stuck in the Middle With You had an enjoyable affirmation of Castel's love and admiration for the Winchester family. I can't speak for all Castiel fans of course, but I especially liked the fact that unlike other signs of loyalty (such as giving up his heavenly army in season 9) his declaration of them being family to him was not just about Dean, but about Sam also. 

In terms of "classic" episodes, I think to be fair to the author she was talking about her favourites of season 12 so far not the overall show :)

[catrox14]

On 03/25/2017 at 7:59 AM, rue721 said:

And/or why he was making so many deals in Lawrence, Kansa

I thought it was the proximity to Stull  Cemetery which had a portal to Hell. So it was just convenient IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I thought it was the proximity to Stull  Cemetery which had a portal to Hell. So it was just convenient IMO.

As I said later:

However, there's a portal to Hell at Stull Cemetery? I don't remember that at all.

[catrox14]

I seem to remember something about the actual real Stull Cemetery in Lawrence being rumored to have a portal or stairway to Hell which is why Kripke chose Lawrence as the home for the Winchesters and why he set the cemetery as the place for the battle  between Lucifer and Michael.

[Geordiegirl1967]

14 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I can understand why a fan whose focus is on the brothers may not have enjoyed LIly Sunders has Some Regrets and Stuck in the Middle (with You).

The reason I was not overly enamoured of the Lily Sunder one was nothing to do with Cas. I actually enjoyed the bit of his back story we saw (though why angels were on earth back then and stayed in the same hosts for all the years in between when angels weren't supposed to be on earth was hand waved away to an annoying extent) and I thought the story was ok. I didn't hate it. But it, like so many eps this season, it could so easily have given brothers fans something we wanted (i.e. some genuine connection/concern/emotion between the brothers) without taking anything away from Cas or the story or the wider story arc or anything else. Writing an SPN ep doesn't have to be a zero sum game. A really good ep can be balanced between Sam and Dean, and can include Cas/Crowley/Rowena/Mary/other characters and can be a good motw and can advance the story arc and can be entertaining and can be consistent with canon and characterisation. Then we'd ALL be happy. Instead we get Dean disappearing then Sam disappearing then a boring story about Crowley or Lucifer or Cas all topped off with a pretty uninspiring overall story arc - so in the end no one is happy.

The main reason I didn't care for the Raid was because I found it stylistically derivative and irritating. Doesn't help that I have rarely been moved by any of Cas's various predicaments so that didn't make up for the style issues for me.

Specifically on Cas - I agree his relationship with the boys has been portrayed much more evenly this year i.e. it has been made clear that he cares about Dean AND Sam and vice versa. Which, as someone who doesn't get and has never bought into the 'profound bond' hoopla, suits me far better and is more credible IMO. But the balance has been all wrong. Cas has had several hugs, he had his whole dying 'you are my family' emotional scene in SitMwY, he had his killing Billy 'I'd do anything for a Winchester' moment etc etc. Yet we have not had ONE (and I am not exaggerating) decent brotherly moment in the whole season despite several instances where the situation was absolutely crying out for it (the reunion scene in eps 2 and 9 for example). 

I just wish this inexperienced group of writers and show runner were better at juggling all these different elements and could give more of us what we want more of the time. The writers hit it out of the park most weeks in the early years and right up to ep 20 of s11 (with a few notable exceptions...cough....first half of s8...cough) there were far more hits than misses. I still love the show but I am getting very impatient with s12. 

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Writing an SPN ep doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

Amen!!

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

hich, as someone who doesn't get and has never bought into the 'profound bond' hoopla, suits me far better and is more credible IMO. But the balance has been all wrong.

I tend to believe Cas when he said it himself in s6 And IMO that pretty much held true through midway s9 when they began to form a friendship over their mutual concern for Dean which carried over throughout s10. That's just my opinion.

Edited March 29, 2017 by catrox14

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I tend to believe Cas when he said it himself in s6

Of course many people agree with you, but making a character say something doesn't mean that every viewer feels that or is convinced by it. I have never seen the alleged 'chemistry' some appeared to discern. For me it has always felt forced.

But opinions vary. Buffy and Angel was supposed to be this amazing ship, but I was creeped out by a 200+ year old adult man lusting after a 15 year old girl. So I never bought into it. Whereas (pretty immature) Spike and (by this time adult and much older and wiser) Buffy had off the charts chemistry IMO. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Of course many people agree with you, but making a character say something doesn't mean that every viewer feels that or is convinced by it. I have never seen the alleged 'chemistry' some appeared to discern. For me it has always felt forced.

I wasn't implying every viewer should feel that way. Just saying that I PERSONALLY believe that Cas meant it when he said it and I think the chemistry is there in spades between Dean and Cas. Always was still is. 

[Wayward Son]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I tend to believe Cas when he said it himself in s6 And IMO that pretty much held true through midway s9 when they began to form a friendship over their mutual concern for Dean which carried over throughout s10. That's just my opinion.

 

5 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Of course many people agree with you, but making a character say something doesn't mean that every viewer feels that or is convinced by it. I have never seen the alleged 'chemistry' some appeared to discern. For me it has always felt forced.

Putting aside the issue of chemistry, since that's entirely subjective and not something that can be proved or disproved, I think there are a lot of in text reasons for Cas to have been closer to Dean back then and arguably still closer now. 

For instance he rescued Dean from hell on the orders of heaven. From the beginning he has always been protective of Dean seeing him as one of his charges. At first it was mainly business related and as season four progressed it became more personal as Cas' admiration for Dean and his internal strength grew. In Lucifer Rising It was ultimately the words of Dean that helped him shrug off Naomi's programming and rebel openly against heaven. IMO that moment was one of the most important for beginning to cement a bond between Dean and Cas. I also think at this point Castiel was still very much a soldier in mindset and his admiration for Dean meant he started to view Dean as his new leader and role model throughout season 5.

By contrast Castiel's relationship with Sam got off on a rather negative note. Initially he felt nothing but disdain for Sam viewing him as an "abomination" due to the demon blood inside himself and his decision to make use of the powers granted by Azazel. In my opinion this is something that created a certain reticence between the two until Cas' verbal apology and affirmation that Sam now matters to him in First Born. IMO the first mutual hug between them, that follows this speech, was meant to symbolise a shift in their dynamic. This was the moment Cas shifted from being a friend of Dean's Sam tolerated to a friend of Sam's too in Sam's eyes. Then as @catrox14 pointed out Sam and Cas grow closer over the next season and a half due to their mutual concern for Dean and the effects of the mark of Cain. 

In addition to this, Dean and Castiel have also experienced a year in purgatory together that Castiel didn't share with Sam. 

So to sum up my thinky thoughts, there are definitely reasons to argue that Castiel is equally close to both brothers now. However, this was not the case during seasons 4-8 when Castiel was significantly closer to Dean. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

By contrast Castiel's relationship with Sam got off on a rather negative note. Initially he felt nothing but disdain for Sam viewing him as an "abomination" due to the demon blood inside himself and his decision to make use of the powers granted by Azazel. In my opinion this is something that created a certain reticence between the two until Cas' verbal apology and affirmation that Sam now matters to him in First Born. IMO the first mutual hug between them, that follows this speech, was meant to symbolise a shift in their dynamic. This was the moment Cas shifted from being a friend of Dean's Sam tolerated to a friend of Sam's too in Sam's eyes. Then as @catrox14 pointed out Sam and Cas grow closer over the next season and a half due to their mutual concern for Dean and the effects of the mark of Cain. 

While I agree with much of your analysis, I'm not as sure the shift starting here was so clear cut... at least not on Sam's end. And I would more say that it was Castiel's mind in some respects that more had to change to seeing Sam as a friend and more than just Dean's brother than it was Sam. For me the shift actually began in season 7. Even after Castiel broke Sam's wall and made him go crazy, it was Sam who was the first to forgive Cas and was the one who didn't give up on him. There was an understanding there, because Sam knew what it was like to mess up and disappoint Dean, and so he could relate. That was when Sam declared Cas "One of us" when he was calling for him. And then later in that season, Cas took on Sam's crazy in order to save him, thereby saving Sam from a personal hell if not the real thing.

Things took a step back in season 8, since Carver in that season was - to  me anyway - not interested in Sam and Cas' growing relationship. He seemed barely interested in Dean and Castiel's relationship for the most part, because he had Cas under Naomi's influence for most of the season and had split them up for much of purgatory starting from the moment they arrived with Benny fulfilling the role of Dean's friend for most of his purgatory stay.

But my annoyances with Sam's season 8 characterization are well-worn territory, I don't need to revisit, beyond the fact that they apparently extended to his relationship with Castiel as well.

[DittyDotDot]

On 3/27/2017 at 1:25 AM, Wayward Son said:

For once I actually agree with a "best episode" article! These are probably my favourites so far as well! Although Id have to give the season a rewatch to decide for definite.

http://www.nerdsandbeyond.com/2017/03/24/supernatural-our-favorite-episodes-of-season-12-so-far/

Heh, when I see one of these lists I usually just roll my eyes and wonder what the criteria was. The author here did a good job of stating that and the does have some good points. My reaction as I scrolled down the list at first: Really? (American Nightmare)...Hmm (Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox)...Huh? (Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets)...Okay (Regarding Dean)...Um, yeah, I can go with that (Stuck in the Middle With You).

So, one out of five doesn't seem like a good percentage. Thinking on it more, though, I realized I agreed more than seemed, but for different reasons. My view of almost all the episodes so far this season is they started out strong or had good premises, but just about all of them fell apart at some point.

• American Nightmare was all the things I miss about Supernatural until the monologuing and preaching made me want to gouge out my ears.
• Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox was absolutely delightful until they started hunting and running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
• Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets was just too slow and seemed to drag on and on and on. Lots of talking about nothing, if you ask me.
• Regarding Dean had so much potential that was just squandered in trying to make me cry. But, it had some nice moments jammed in between all the attempted emotional manipulation.
• Stuck in the Middle With You, I'm no Tarantino fan and the concept wasn't fully realized, IMO, but except for the over the top Castiel-in-deathly-peril melodrama, the episode surprisingly worked for me--I think it was the ensemble nature of the episode that probably won me over in the end.

So, it's hard for me to look at a list like this and think of these episodes as favorites. But, putting it in a different context, I can look back and say they're some of the best of this season so far. Which is a nice way to say, they're the best in a pile of just okay. Personally, I'd swap out American Nightmare for The Foundry and Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets for Keep Calm and Carry On, though. But, even then, it's still a list of "just okay" episodes dressed up as "best."

Wow, that went kinda depressing, didn't it? Sorry.

Edited March 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Regarding Dean had so much potential that was just squandered in trying to make me cry. But, it had some nice moments jammed in between all the attempted emotional manipulation.

That episode seemed to be an intentionally dark comedic episode akin to Yellow Fever or Mystery Spot. I'm curious what you thought was wasted potential and why it was emotional manipulation vs just emotional.

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That episode seemed to be an intentionally dark comedic episode akin to Yellow Fever or Mystery Spot. I'm curious what you thought was wasted potential and why it was emotional manipulation vs just emotional.

To be fair, all storytelling is emotional manipulation, but if it's done well, the audience won't notice they're being manipulated.

IMO, they didn't develop the story enough in Regarding Dean for the emotional beats to actually be emotional. Basically, in lieu of showing us Dean's progression and allowing us to feel it, they threw in a few scenes of Dean and Sam being emotional as a short cut. So, the emotional beats just didn't feel earned to me.

It's pretty much the same thing they do with the sit 'n' chats, they're short cuts to tell the audience something because they don't have the time or money or want to actually show us those things. 

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

To be fair, all storytelling is emotional manipulation, but if it's done well, the audience won't notice they're being manipulated.

IMO, they didn't develop the story enough in Regarding Dean for the emotional beats to actually be emotional. Basically, in lieu of showing us Dean's progression and allowing us to feel it, they threw in a few scenes of Dean and Sam being emotional as a short cut. So, the emotional beats just didn't feel earned to me.

It's pretty much the same thing they do with the sit 'n' chats, they're short cuts to tell the audience something because they don't have the time or money or want to actually show us those things. 

I don't know if I felt emotionally manipulated, but I did feel like the pacing was totally off and we just needed more gradual decline.  I kind of felt like it needed to be two episodes, but I guess I should just feel lucky that they didn't throw Heaven and Hell stuff in there, too, to take time away from the story.

[Pondlass1]

The fact that Dean could still read puzzled me, so I googled and apparently Alzheimer's patients can continue to read without a problem, they'll have trouble retaining what they've read though.  So the fact that Dean could read 'witch killing bullets' worked... I guess.

For me Regarding Dean has been THE best episode of the whole season.  However, episodes continue to bump along in terms of ongoing emotion.  That heart-wrenching scene in the bathroom mirror (which brought a lump to my throat, and I'm a fairly unemotional type) was immediately followed by a frivolous Dean and Rowena scene.   I don't know... editing or whatever is just spoiling things.  I can't put my finger on it, but they just don't give us a chance to invest in anything any more. This season has mostly become a collection of overwrought and overwritten speeches, as if the show could be made more dramatic simply by increasing the quantity of words spoken. Screen time that could be spent advancing meaningful storylines or developing interesting characters is wasted.  I don't get characters' motivations anymore. Sigh

Sorry to have gone off on a rant.... I LOVE this show.  But it's so frustrating,  it's like my kid came home with a report card that says "Must try harder" 

 

Or maybe it's just me.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't know if I felt emotionally manipulated, but I did feel like the pacing was totally off and we just needed more gradual decline.

In that case, they needed to go either with more than one episode or time jumps over the course of the episode. But obviously there was supposed to be an urgency factor in how fast the spell progressed. I had no problem with this approach.

The episode was so much better than Yellow Fever and IMO the best of Season 12. Though Asa Fox and Lily Sunder at least were enjoyable episode with IMO strong guest star presences.

American Nightmare and Stuck in the middle were both episodes I hated because Perez really manages to take everything I hate and put in in episodes. Mary was especially obnoxiously bitchy. Dean is either a non-entity or a dumb carricature who is just wrong. Sam is pimped. So those go on the "worse" list for me.

The rest of the Season was a lot of boring filler. Like the Crowley family episode. So. boring. It wasn`t offensive by any means and the I have no problem with the actors, even an episode featured on Crowley, Rowena and Gavin in and of itself isn`t a deal breaker but the story itself was like watching paint dry. Rock star and president Lucifer? Yawn.    

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

While I agree with much of your analysis, I'm not as sure the shift starting here was so clear cut... at least not on Sam's end. And I would more say that it was Castiel's mind in some respects that more had to change to seeing Sam as a friend and more than just Dean's brother than it was Sam. For me the shift actually began in season 7. Even after Castiel broke Sam's wall and made him go crazy, it was Sam who was the first to forgive Cas and was the one who didn't give up on him. There was an understanding there, because Sam knew what it was like to mess up and disappoint Dean, and so he could relate. That was when Sam declared Cas "One of us" when he was calling for him. And then later in that season, Cas took on Sam's crazy in order to save him, thereby saving Sam from a personal hell if not the real thing.

Taking my reply to the relationships thread.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

In that case, they needed to go either with more than one episode or time jumps over the course of the episode. But obviously there was supposed to be an urgency factor in how fast the spell progressed. I had no problem with this approach.

The episode was so much better than Yellow Fever and IMO the best of Season 12. Though Asa Fox and Lily Sunder at least were enjoyable episode with IMO strong guest star presences.

American Nightmare and Stuck in the middle were both episodes I hated because Perez really manages to take everything I hate and put in in episodes. Mary was especially obnoxiously bitchy. Dean is either a non-entity or a dumb carricature who is just wrong. Sam is pimped. So those go on the "worse" list for me.

The rest of the Season was a lot of boring filler. Like the Crowley family episode. So. boring. It wasn`t offensive by any means and the I have no problem with the actors, even an episode featured on Crowley, Rowena and Gavin in and of itself isn`t a deal breaker but the story itself was like watching paint dry. Rock star and president Lucifer? Yawn.    

I'll agree Mary was bitchy in Stuck in the Middle.  But, I'm not sure how I feel about the epi as a whole. I'm not sure if the fact that I've never seen a Tarantino film has an effect on my viewing of this episode.

I liked American Nightmare a lot, though. And, while I thought the mom was crazy and wrong, I still kind of felt for her.  What do you do with a kid like Magda?  Not torture her obviously, and certainly don't kill your whole family, but it does raise a dilemma.

I also loved Family Feud and Rock Never Dies.  I hated Lotus because all the characters, and I mean every last one of them were making the stupidest decisions it was possible to make.  One stupid decision?  OK, we all have those.  But a whole episode filled with them?  From people (and others) who should know better?  Worst episode of the season.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I'm not sure if the fact that I've never seen a Tarantino film has an effect on my viewing of this episode.

I like quite a bit of Tarantino films but I don`t think the gimmick played well during the episode. And even if it did, I`d still hate the most prominent tropes in Perez` episodes. As long as he keeps them in, that won`t change. And the interview he gave after Stuck in the middle was especially grating IMO. 

Quote

I also loved Family Feud and Rock Never Dies.

I liked one scene with Lucifer in Rock Never Dies - thought Springfield did really well there - but I never wanted to see Lucifer back anyway.

[catrox14]

Upon rewatches I really dislike Stuck in the Middle overall other than the Cas near death scene.  And NO I don't mind non-linear storytelling. I love it as a matter of fact. The problem for me with Stuck in the Middle is more than the Tarentino gimmick. In Tarentino films it works because they have  2 + hours to let an individual story segment breathe.  In a 45 minute episode it just doesn't work.  Nor IMO did it serve the story well.

I watched fan edit of Stuck in the Middle that tells the story that needed to be told in a linear fashion and IMO had far more emotional resonance and GOTCHA moments than was in the episode.  I'll post it in the fanfiction thread if anyone cares to see it. I thought it was great.

I also didn't like Stuck in the Middle for other reasons :

 

Quote

CROWLEY: Nasty bit of business. Kills everything it touches. If you’re a demon, you go up in a puff of smoke. If you’re an angel, you just… rot away. Sorry, Castiel.
DEAN: No. No. There’s a cure. There’s always a cure, and we will find it.
CROWLEY: How?
SAM: We trap Ramiel.
DEAN: And we beat his ass until he gives it up.
CROWLEY: It’s not gonna work.
SAM: We took down the Darkness, and the Devil.
CROWLEY: It took you years to defeat Lucifer, and the power of God to stop the Darkness. Maybe if you had more time, you could manage Ramiel. But right now, in this barn… Hey, I was growing fond of the choir boy, too.
DEAN: Shut up. Shut up. We don’t have time, okay, for your-- for you. So either help us or get the hell out of here!

^^^^^

1) The Darkness:  Perez either was retconning the solution to the Darkness or he's setting Crowley up for something else.  Cas, Sam, Rowena and Dean figured out how to kill the Darkness. They already knew the power of souls. If they gave Cas the line about having enough souls destroy Amara, Chuck didn't need to be there.  Dean was the one that talked Amara out of killing God; Rowena figured out how to make the soul bomb ; Dean and Sam knew where to get at least SOME souls with the assist from Billie.  Chuck didn't really do anything.

Lucifer:  It really didn't take them years to defeat Lucifer. They put him back in the Cage in the course of two years with the rings.  And this time it took the BMoL and Rowena to put him back in the Cage. Crowley only glommed onto Rowena's spell to redirect Lucifer into the meatsuit. Maybe Crowley was projecting that it took HIM, years to reconfigure Nick's meatsuit. Either way Crowley was full of shit on that point but NO other character corrected him. So what was Perez going for there?
 

Quote

CROWLEY: King of the Crossroads.
[Ramiel stares at him while a cuckoo clock chimes]
CROWLEY: I’ve been sent by Hell.
RAMIEL: And what? Don’t they teach you how to knock in Hell?
CROWLEY: For that, I apologize. But I do come bearing gifts. The first is from all demonkind. We heard you collect weapons-- the more ancient and arcane, the better. So may I present, the Lance of Michael, the Archangel. [Crowley’s associate removes the drape from the lance and presents it to Ramiel]
RAMIEL: Impressive. This beauty, she kills the bad ones fast, and the good ones slow and painful.
CROWLEY: Ironic, seeing as it was made by an angel.
RAMIEL: There’s only one angel Michael wanted to kill, and he wanted that son of a bitch to suffer. Ah, the magic. It’s all in the rune work. The craftsmanship. Oh.

Quote

MARY: He got stabbed with some kind of silver-tipped spear.
CROWLEY: It’s not a spear. It’s a lance. The Lance of Michael.
DEAN: Michael. As in Michael Michael?

^^^^

2) Michael:

If Ramiel wasn't referring to Lucifer as the angel Michael wanted to make suffer, then who was it? Maybe it will be answered but IMO that does not comport with what Michael said about Lucifer. IMO he did not want him to suffer. He needed to kill him because God commanded it.    Instead we get a borderline retcon of the entire Michael/Lucifer relationship as outlined in s5 or at least a strange reference that doesn't comport with what Michael ever said about Lucifer.

Secondly, I was really irritated that Perez never elaborated on why Dean said "Michael? As in Michael... Michael?". If a viewer is new to the show in s12 (which IT REALLY DOES HAPPEN), they would have NO idea of the connection between Dean and Michael. WHY NOT ADDRESS IT WHEN THE WRITER HAS THE CHANCE? It's a major thing in Dean's  character history just like Dean going to back Hell in s11. I can't decide if it's being minimized because they just don't know what to do with and it is being shuffled away like it means nothing. OR HOPEFULLY, these  minor mentions and how Jensen played them both are seed planting for something in the future (YES I KNOW, that is probably major wishful thinking on my part).

3)Cas' near death scene:

The editing of Cas near death scene drained the emotional resonance too much.  I had the same problem with the editing in Regarding Dean with Dean's talk to himself in the mirror.  They could have put the Sam/Rowena conversation about Dean at the beginning, let the Dean mirror scene run through and end with Sam and Rowena fighting about who will stay with Dean. I've seen that reedited by a fan and it is far better to see it in one piece.

Edited March 29, 2017 by catrox14
Needed to reorganize my thoughts

[Katy M]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Either way Crowley was full of shit on that point but NO other character corrected him. So what was Perez going for there?

I think they didn't bother correcting him, because the point still stood.  Cas was dying in a matter of hours, probably less.  They did not defeat Lucifer or the Darkness in a matter of hours.

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

  I had the same problem with the editing in Regarding Dean with Dean's talk to himself in the mirror.  They could have put the Sam/Rowena conversation about Dean at the beginning, let the Dean mirror scene run through and end with Sam and Rowena fighting about who will stay with Dean. I've seen that reedited by a fan and it is far better to see it in one piece.

That's been one thing that has bothered me about this series for a while.  Unless the two things have something to do with each other, just show one scene and then show the other thing as a separate scene.  Stop cutting it all together, unless there's a good reason, such as Sam's fighting a ghost and Dean's trying to burn it or something.

[catrox14]

Just now, Katy M said:

I think they didn't bother correcting him, because the point still stood.  Cas was dying in a matter of hours, probably less.  They did not defeat Lucifer or the Darkness in a matter of hours.

 

With Lucifer for the first go round yes it took them a couple of years. But they did it the second time in a matter of hours and actually like 30 seconds with the Magic Egg and the spell from Rowena.   They did defeat the Darkness in a matter of hours. As soon as Chuck started dying the sun started burning out. Once Chuck was dead, the world was dead. I think that whole thing happened in a matter of hours. Maybe a day. That's why they had to do things so quickly. That didn't happen over the course of a week or even years. And it literally didn't take the power of God to defeat the Darkness.  That's the line that really confounded me. WHY IS IT THERE??   

[Wayward Son]

11 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

While I agree with much of your analysis, I'm not as sure the shift starting here was so clear cut... at least not on Sam's end. And I would more say that it was Castiel's mind in some respects that more had to change to seeing Sam as a friend and more than just Dean's brother than it was Sam. For me the shift actually began in season 7. Even after Castiel broke Sam's wall and made him go crazy, it was Sam who was the first to forgive Cas and was the one who didn't give up on him. There was an understanding there, because Sam knew what it was like to mess up and disappoint Dean, and so he could relate. That was when Sam declared Cas "One of us" when he was calling for him. And then later in that season, Cas took on Sam's crazy in order to save him, thereby saving Sam from a personal hell if not the real thing.

Things took a step back in season 8, since Carver in that season was - to  me anyway - not interested in Sam and Cas' growing relationship. He seemed barely interested in Dean and Castiel's relationship for the most part, because he had Cas under Naomi's influence for most of the season and had split them up for much of purgatory starting from the moment they arrived with Benny fulfilling the role of Dean's friend for most of his purgatory stay.

But my annoyances with Sam's season 8 characterization are well-worn territory, I don't need to revisit, beyond the fact that they apparently extended to his relationship with Castiel as well.

I honestly don't think Sam's forgiveness of Castiel was necessarily due to fondness he had for Castiel. I think, as you referenced in your post, that his forgiveness was due to a more general understanding of Castiel's situation. Sam knows what it is like to be the one who has screwed up, to be the one who has turned on those who care about you and needs forgiveness. I think this empathy has made him remarkably forgiving, almost too forgiving at times because he feels the need to extend the forgiveness Dean gave him to others. Another example of this nature being his willingness to ultimately forgive Gadreel for using his body to commit atrocious acts. I don't want to sound like I'm taking away something from Sam because his forgiveness of Castiel was an amazing and generous act regardless of the motivation. However, I just don't see it as necessarily reflecting a particular fondness for Cas in particular but YMMO of course. 

In my opinion during seasons 5-8 Sam largely viewed Castiel as an ally in the fight against the supernatural and a friend of Dean's. I think when he refers to Castiel as one of us he means it in a "comrade in arms" sense rather than a familial one like Dean would have as early as season 6. As I mentioned on my last post IMO their encounter in First Born was a significant turning point for their relationship. It was then Sam hugged Castiel for the first time and started to regard him as a friend rather than an ally who was Dean's friend. Then of course that friendship expanded over the next year and a half until ultimately by season 12 Sam considers Cas family just like Dean does :)

Edited March 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[AwesomO4000]

@Wayward Son, I should probably take this over  to the relationship thread, so moving it over there...