All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Diane]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

What's about it irritates you?

I thought it was an OK episode (not wonderful, but has some highlights) -- but it doesn't work in terms of canon nowadays. Or in general, really. A 20+ year old ghost that martyrs herself for her sons? Weird

I posted my biggest reason above, I like almost all the episodes in the series, I am for the most part not that critical.  But I just hate the way Dean is treated in Home and all the crap with John.

[Geordiegirl1967]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

but it doesn't work in terms of canon nowadays. Or in general, really. A 20+ year old ghost that martyrs herself for her sons? Weird

I like the ep, but you are right about this. In terms of what followed, particularly now with Mary's resurrection, it doesn't really hang together. But at the time we didn't know that, and neither could they.

[Diane]

1 minute ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I love Home. It is one of my faves from s1. I love Missouri. I think people take the way she speaks to the boys too seriously. It is meant to be funny and said with affection, and for me it works. It is from this ep that the show really started to punch above its weight emotionally I thought.  

It always strikes me when watching the early seasons how much both boys have grown up. In particular Dean was like a little boy sometimes - so desperate for his Dad's approval, so low in self esteem, so weighed down by duty and his lack of a childhood. There are still elements of that boy in the man we see now but he has grown a lot and values himself much more. And his and Sam's relationship is much more mature and equal now. Dean saw himself as the big brother, the protector, the peacemaker. Sam was the kid brother, rebelling against dad, taking risks, not following the rules. 

Now Dean and Sam are equals, adults, best friends as well as brothers. That big bro little bro dynamic is still there but it was much more in the forefront in the early seasons. 

The bolded part is where I disagree, I just don't take it as being funny.  It's just rude and childish on her part.  I love the actress that plays Missouri, just not her character.

I love that the boys have grown and are equals too. It has been nice to see the progression.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Or in general, really. A 20+ year old ghost that martyrs herself for her sons? Weird

I actually don't think that was weird.  This was a ghost of a woman who died trying to protect her son, so why not double die that same way.  And we have seen in other episodes ghosts who are, I don't know, in some kind of suspended animation or something until they wake up.  Like in Route 666. And, the ghosts in Roadkill and Ghostfacers are only active certain times of the year.  So, if Mary was woken up by the poltergeist moving into to her house, I don't think she would have gone all vengeful, and I think it makes perfect sense that she would martyr herself to save her boys.  Probably didn't really want to be a ghost anyway as an ex-hunter.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I watched Home today also. I like it for the most part. Have to agree with @Geordiegirl1967 that I thought Missouri was funny. Dean was a bit of a cocky smart-ass back then. And I thought it was more affectionate picking on him than mean. He was used to being the 'favored one' (as told in Bugs just previously) so he was pretty confused as to why she was giving him such a hard time.  The part with John at the end really irritates me, but I noticed them laying more of the groundwork for the psychic kids story line. One thing about the ghosts in the house that confused me was at the end, the "burning man" turns out to be Mary - who is not a vengeful spirit. So earlier in the ep when we see the little girl see a burning person in her closet, why was she afraid? Mary wouldn't have hurt her. (Or so we are led to believe.)  Or was Mary also trying to protect the little girl? That's just not how it appeared in the story, imo.  Besides, wouldn't Sari have also known there was a 'good ghost' if Mary had protected her from the poltergeist?  She never mentioned that - only the bad thing in her closet.  I thought we saw the poltergeist blown out of the house by the hex bags (seriously - they looked just like hex bags) so how/when did it come back?  Or was there more than one malevolent poltergeist?  None of that was very clear/sufficiently explained for me.  

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So earlier in the ep when we see the little girl see a burning person in her closet, why was she afraid? Mary wouldn't have hurt her.

Sairey wouldn't have known that Mary didn't want to hurt her, though.

 

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Or was Mary also trying to protect the little girl?

Yes, I think she was.

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 Besides, wouldn't Sari have also known there was a 'good ghost' if Mary had protected her from the poltergeist?  She never mentioned that - only the bad thing in her closet.

I don't think Sairey had all the behind the scenes information to know that there was a good ghost and a bad ghost.

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 I thought we saw the poltergeist blown out of the house by the hex bags (seriously - they looked just like hex bags) so how/when did it come back?

I'm with you on that one.  Either the poltergeist knew how to do a fake out or was able to come back, or there was yet a third entity in that house.

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, Diane said:

I am an equal brothers fan to the heart, but I hate the way Dean is spoken to and treated in this episode.  It also drives me insane that he calls his Dad almost in tears and John is there and can't even answer the damn phone.  I do like that Mary saves the boys, but that is about all. So this episode gets on my last nerve.

I'm not super-fond of Home either.  It's not just Missouri and John, though; I always feel like it needs a stronger focus. Between the poltergeist, Missouri, John past and present, Sam's visions, Dean's trauma and Mary... . Add on top how I don't think the director nailed the tone very well. And, this is probably just a personal thing, but the whole "What happened to Dad" storyline is basically revealed to be a big old nothing here.

However, I would never skip this episode. This episode and Shadow always stick out as episodes where you can see they're still trying to find themselves and I love to watch the progression the show goes through in S1. 

4 hours ago, SueB said:

We had Nightmares earlier today.  Watching Max is SOOOOOO hard.  He's literally a still-beaten abused child.  His body language and anguish are palpable.  And he's physically HARD to look at.  He's not a super attractive guy.  You see the pain on him.  So, I forced myself to watch, despite how uncomfortable, because that shit is real (there are abused people out there everywhere) and we gloss it over with "pretty" TV-friendly bruises.  Max is not a TV-friendly victim.  Which makes him more real.

Hard story to watch. 

Yes, very hard to watch. And, sad. And, depressing.

[DittyDotDot]

Sorry, didn't see there was another page.

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

I thought it was an OK episode (not wonderful, but has some highlights) -- but it doesn't work in terms of canon nowadays. Or in general, really. A 20+ year old ghost that martyrs herself for her sons? Weird

It works for me in terms of canon. I mean it makes about as much sense as anything else on the show. I mean, does John climbing out of hell and being able to grab a demon long enough for Dean to shoot him in the head make any more sense? ;)

I thought they did a pretty good job of fitting Mary's reemergence this season into what came before. Or at least I felt like they tried, anyway. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Quote

that I thought Missouri was funny. Dean was a bit of a cocky smart-ass back then. And I thought it was more affectionate picking on him than mean.

He wasn`t a smart-ass with her. And I consider it incredibly rude to continously make remarks to and about basically a stranger that insults their intelligence and basically everything about them. Even in front of other strangers. "He is not the sharpest tool in the shed", said to the woman who they want to let them into her house. Because nothing says like "we`re professionals who can help" like "hi, it`s us and the loser idiot here". That kind of teasing you can do with a friend or family member you have a comfortable routine with but not someone you really don`t know. She even gave him crap about his thoughts. As if he can help what he is thinking. And the line delivery just wasn`t affectionate in my eyes, it was gleefully mean-spirited. The one scene I enjoyed with her was when the Poltergeist slammed her against the wall or something. Go Poltergeist.    

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He wasn`t a smart-ass with her. And I consider it incredibly rude to continously make remarks to and about basically a stranger that insults their intelligence and basically everything about them. Even in front of other strangers. "He is not the sharpest tool in the shed", said to the woman who they want to let them into her house. Because nothing says like "we`re professionals who can help" like "hi, it`s us and the loser idiot here". That kind of teasing you can do with a friend or family member you have a comfortable routine with but not someone you really don`t know. She even gave him crap about his thoughts. As if he can help what he is thinking. And the line delivery just wasn`t affectionate in my eyes, it was gleefully mean-spirited. The one scene I enjoyed with her was when the Poltergeist slammed her against the wall or something. Go Poltergeist.    

Not to mention the first thing she says to him is that he's a goofy looking kid, while proceeding to fawn all over Sam.  If Missouri was any good she should have picked up on the fact that Dean was struggling with being back in town.

Even after treating him like crap all ep he was still a gentleman to her and helped her down the stairs  Go Dean 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I like it for the most part. Have to agree with @Geordiegirl1967 that I thought Missouri was funny. Dean was a bit of a cocky smart-ass back then. And I thought it was more affectionate picking on him than mean. He was used to being the 'favored one' (as told in Bugs just previously) so he was pretty confused as to why she was giving him such a hard time.

Whilst I don't concur with your perception that Dean was "favored", it's just that Dean didn't piss John off because he obeyed most of John's orders. That isn't necessarily "favored" son as much as it is that Dean was not rebelling so he was not getting in trouble. IMO if Dean was favored John would have shown in Home when Dean desperately needed him but he didn't.

Regardless, that doesn't really matter in how Dean reacted to Missouri treating him with so much derision and rudeness. She didn't know anything about Dean. She doesn't know his personality. I mean if they had some history, maybe it would be funny. He was taken aback by this woman who is a complete stranger to him yet being overly familiar and insulting.

Part of why I think she picked on Dean originally because of two reasons. 1) He questioned her ethics after he watched her lie to her previous client. I think that pissed her off so she continued to pick on him.  2) She was covering for John.

And YES I would feel the same way if she was rude to Sam.

[SueB]

I think they WANTED Missouri to be light and fun but it fell flat in context of Dean's emotional response to leaving a message with John.  I also think Kripke was hoping she would be a recurring character.  She got the "and" before her name in the credits, indicating a higher "status" as a guest.  So, I could see him putting some 'quirkyness' into her character to make her more memorable.  Perhaps he felt there would be time later for her to act more motherly towards both. 

Still, the unevenness shows they were still working out the kinks IMO.  I also personally factor in that this was an Eric Kripke script.  HIS favorite part was the plumber getting his hand mangled (see Paleyfest below).  He also saddled Jensen Ackles with the "especially after I... I promised I would never go back there again." line.  WHAT A WEAK LINE -- completely lacks subtlety or nuance.  Jensen does well with it, but it's really cardboard.  Earlier in the Paleyfest script, Kripke basically says he does "plot" and Singer does "character".  And there was an unevenness in tone in that episode between several scenes.  Ultimately, I think it's a good episode but I'd put that on the director (Ken Girotti), Kim Manners (who oversaw all of Vancouver at that time) and the acting.  It was Jensen, IMO, who elevated the phone call with his acting.  Interestingly enough, I don't know HOW they got him to do that emotion because the first part of the Paleyfest clip below is Kim Manners talking about getting Jensen to let Dean's walls down in Shadows.  But he did show the emotional side of Dean in Home and that was great.   Don't get me wrong, Jensen is a very good actor and has shown emotion and drama for other characters in other series well before Supernatural.  But if he was defensive (as he states in the interview regarding Shadows), it doesn't show in Home.  This was, IMO, the first time he really let Dean's guard down (in the episode Home).  Perhaps he recognized that the topic (going back to his childhood) warranted it.  Finally, the director Ken Girotti, was a "one and done" for Supernatural.  He never directed again.  So, it wasn't like it ended up being someone with a strong presence in the series. Which makes me believe that there may have been a large "group" effort on getting Home over the finish line from script through editing.  Subsequently, I think that it might have lacked a consistent tone -- and Missouri's "humor" fell flat for many. 

Paleyfest 2006 "Favorite Scene" (starts at 1:02ish... cued).  Note, this Paleyfest was done just after they finished filming Something Wicked in S1.  So we are looking at baby Jared & Jensen.  If you watch the whole thing, you can see their humor that they show at cons is already in place.  

Edited March 23, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think they WANTED Missouri to be light and fun but it fell flat in context of Dean's emotional response to leaving a message with John.  I also think Kripke was hoping she would be a recurring character.  She got the "and" before her name in the credits, indicating a higher "status" as a guest.  So, I could see him putting some 'quirkyness' into her character to make her more memorable.  Perhaps he felt there would be time later for her to act more motherly towards both. 

From everything I've read, Missouri was supposed to be recurring but they couldn't secure the actor. That's when they came up with Bobby.

[Wayward Son]

An unpopular opinion (but I don't think it's controversial enough to really need to be in there) of mine is that the whole "five year plan" was an exaggeration of Kripke's. Or if he did have a detailed five year plan only some basics made it on screen and it hardly mattered in the end, 

The reason for this point of view is the fact that according to interviews the course of the shows plot changed dramatically as a result of the writers strike. Originally angels were never going to be introduced and Dean was never going to go to hell. Instead Sam was going to embrace his demonic abilities and turn Dark Side to save his brother. Season 4 would have then focused on Dean trying to turn Sam back from the dark side. Actually that also supports @catrox14 idea that the current "the brothers must be together in every ep and co-dependent" may not have always been the case since they'd hAve been seperate for the seasonal demon influenced Sam arc.

However, the writer strike meant they only had 5 episodes to wrap up the season instead of 11 so they were trapped into sending him to hell and decided they needed angels to bring him back. 

Considering the large role the angels play in the mythology of season 4 and 5 I don't feel they follow any initial 5 year plan Kripke may have had in mind. I could see some basic broad points remaining like

- Apocalypse (although I reckon it would have been a zombie Croatan one) 

- Final Episode will contain the brothers saving the world as a result of their brother love. 

But I doubt Kripke had the specifics of the emotional development and mytharc in mind like many fans seem to think he had.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

An unpopular opinion (but I don't think it's controversial enough to really need to be in there) of mine is that the whole "five year plan" was an exaggeration of Kripke's. Or if he did have a detailed five year plan only some basics made it on screen and it hardly mattered in the end, 

The reason for this point of view is the fact that according to interviews the course of the shows plot changed dramatically as a result of the writers strike. Originally angels were never going to be introduced and Dean was never going to go to hell. Instead Sam was going to embrace his demonic abilities and turn Dark Side to save his brother. Season 4 would have then focused on Dean trying to turn Sam back from the dark side. Actually that also supports @catrox14 idea that the current "the brothers must be together in every ep and co-dependent" may not have always been the case since they'd hAve been seperate for the seasonal demon influenced Sam arc.

However, the writer strike meant they only had 5 episodes to wrap up the season instead of 11 so they were trapped into sending him to hell and decided they needed angels to bring him back. 

Considering the large role the angels play in the mythology of season 4 and 5 I don't feel they follow any initial 5 year plan Kripke may have had in mind. I could see some basic broad points remaining like

- Apocalypse (although I reckon it would have been a zombie Croatan one) 

- Final Episode will contain the brothers saving the world as a result of their brother love. 

But I doubt Kripke had the specifics of the emotional development and mytharc in mind like many fans seem to think he had.

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure Kripke didn't have a 5-year plan at the onset; I believe he had a basic story in mind that took him five years to complete, but he didn't plot those five years out in much detail ahead of time. I mean, the angels alone are evidence that he didn't have it all figured out from the onset.

In fact, I seem to remember reading an interview where he said that he felt it was important to have a plan but also not be so rigid that you can't adapt as opportunities you hadn't considered crop up along the way.

[ILoveReading]

37 minutes ago, SueB said:

 He also saddled Jensen Ackles with the "especially after I... I promised I would never go back there again." line.  WHAT A WEAK LINE -- completely lacks subtlety or nuance.

I disagree here.  I actually thought this line was a good addition to the script and showed where Dean was at emotionally.  In the early seasons we that Mary's death is still a sore spot for him, and he gets angry when she's mentioned, so I can see Dean wanting to avoid going back to the place where she died.   We see it again in 2.06 when Dean refuses visit Mary's grave. 

It also gave us another brillant moment from Jensen when they walk into the nursey and Dean glances up at the ceiling.

As for Dean letting his walls down, I think its easier for him when he doesn't have an audience.  That's why he walks away because he didn't want to make the call in front of Sam. 

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

An unpopular opinion (but I don't think it's controversial enough to really need to be in there) of mine is that the whole "five year plan" was an exaggeration of Kripke's. Or if he did have a detailed five year plan only some basics made it on screen and it hardly mattered in the end, 

I remember an interview from Kripke where he debunked this.  His original idea wasn't even about brothers, it was about a reporter drove around the country investing the Supernatural.  (Night Stalker 2.0).  Then it got changed somehow to being about the brothers.  When he pitched it to the network, he was asked if the story would have enough material for five seasons and Kripke said yes.  Then like a game of telephone this got twisted into Kripke having a five year plan.  He never had one.  IIRC there was even mention that Kripke at one point even imagined the show ending with Dean killing Sam. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

He wasn`t a smart-ass with her. 

But she could read his thoughts.  It's entirely possible - and probable knowing Dean - that he was thinking smart-ass thoughts.  To Missouri, it was like hearing them out loud.  YMMV.  

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Whilst I don't concur with your perception that Dean was "favored", it's just that Dean didn't piss John off because he obeyed most of John's orders.

It wasn't just my perception that Dean was 'favored'. From Bugs:

Quote

SAM Remind you of somebody? (DEAN looks over at LARRY, who is yelling at MATT. He looks back at SAM, confused.) Dad?

DEAN Dad never treated us like that.

SAM Well, Dad never treated you like that. You were perfect. He was all over my case. You don't remember?

DEAN Well, maybe he had to raise his voice, but sometimes, you were out of line.

SAM (scoffs) Right. Right, like when I said I'd rather play soccer than learn bowhunting.

DEAN Bowhunting's an important skill.

While this doesn't debunk your theory that it was just because Dean didn't rebel like Sam did (and I'm not trying to dismiss that - in many ways, I'm sure you're right.)  But the whys don't change the end result -which is, according Sam's and Dean's perception at the time also (notice that Dean never actually refutes it), Dean was treated better than Sam.  

1 hour ago, SueB said:

He also saddled Jensen Ackles with the "especially after I... I promised I would never go back there again." line.  WHAT A WEAK LINE

That line really needed more clarification.  When did Dean make that promise?  When he was little and carried Sam out of the house?  Seems kind of ridiculous for a 4-6 year old to make that kind of promise.  When he was older?  Under what circumstances?  After John told them the truth about how Mary died?  But then, I think he'd want to go back to see the 'scene of the crime' itself if he was really interested in finding out what killed his mother.  It was just an odd line to me.  

[SueB]

Sadly, I think there was a lot of truth to what YED said in Devil's Trap regarding Sam and Dean.  I think John, by circumstance, was more concerned about Sam based on whatever supernatural thing visited his crib.  I think he saw Dean more as a "lieutenant" in his little Winchester Army.  He counted on Dean and that probably looked like favoritism to Sam.  But counting on a person is not the same thing as them being an individual "favorite".  In fact, I think "favorite" is not the right term for John Winchester.  He butted heads with Sam, a lot, but worried about his welfare more.  He trusted Dean more but expected him to pull his own weight.  They are not using the same yardstick.  Nor do any half-decent parents use a single "yardstick" to measure their children.  They have a different relationship with each.  

Please don't think I'm in the John Winchester Defense League.  He has a LOT to answer for IMO.  But "favoritism" is not really a characteristic I'd use.  That's too simplistic IMO. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But she could read his thoughts.  It's entirely possible - and probable knowing Dean - that he was thinking smart-ass thoughts.  To Missouri, it was like hearing them out loud.  YMMV.  

I think he was pretty pre-occupied in this episode with being back in Lawrence but even if not, that just makes her more shitty IMO. A person`s thoughts are free. A mind-reader couldn`t exist among others without shielding abilities, they`d go insane from constantly hearing the voices so they should all have the ability not to listen. And actually should not listen because people`s thoughts should be private. If someone acted to me like she did, my thoughts would run along the lines of "die, rude bitch, die".  

Quote

But the whys don't change the end result -which is, according Sam's and Dean's perception at the time also (notice that Dean never actually refutes it), Dean was treated better than Sam.  

If Sam wanted to be treated like a soldier, all he had to do was to be obedient also. I don`t think he wanted that. And I don`t think it meant being treated "better".    

[RulerofallIsurvey]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And I don`t think it meant being treated "better".    

I think the script speaks for itself there.

[DeeDee79]

10 hours ago, Diane said:

I am an equal brothers fan to the heart, but I hate the way Dean is spoken to and treated in this episode. 

Same here. Missouri was pretty ridiculous in her interactions with Dean.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But she could read his thoughts.  It's entirely possible - and probable knowing Dean - that he was thinking smart-ass thoughts.  To Missouri, it was like hearing them out loud.  YMMV.  

IMO, Missouri's skills as a psychic are suspect. If she really knew Dean then she wouldn't have said he was a goofy looking kid, except to be mean. All the information she said about Sam, she could have gotten from John. I don't think John showed up after the fact. I think he went the minute he got Dean's message.  She claimed the house was clean but it wasn't, so was that just because she was being bested by the hidden poltergeist or that she wasn't really that skilled?  I dunno.  I don't get her characterization at all, TBH.

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

While this doesn't debunk your theory that it was just because Dean didn't rebel like Sam did (and I'm not trying to dismiss that - in many ways, I'm sure you're right.)  But the whys don't change the end result -which is, according Sam's and Dean's perception at the time also (notice that Dean never actually refutes it), Dean was treated better than Sam.  

I said it was your perception because 'favored' wasn't a term used by either Sam or Dean.

John didn't say Dean was perfect. Sam did. That was Sam's perception of how John viewed Dean. Dean didn't refute it because he was being an ass and gloating a little (not unlike Sam gloating that he wasn't a dick in Yellow Fever). IMO, if Dean held 'favored' son status, that went out the window in the very next episode when John ignored Dean's anguished call for help. Regardless, I don't see the correlation with whatever Dean may or may not have thought of himself with how Missouri treated him throughout Home.  

[ILoveReading]

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think the script speaks for itself there.

I think this was debunked in Devil's Trap when Dean was able to identify his father because he said he was proud of him.  That speaks volumes about how Dean was treated.   Not to mention Something Wicked and Bad Boys. 

Just because Dean doesn't refute it doesn't mean he believes it.  It reminds me of the end of Nightmare when Sam says they were lucky they had John, all things considered.  Dean gives a vague, all things considered that left me wondering if Dean was abused physically at times by John.

Also at that time, Dean was still very much in good solider mode, and its possible he wouldn't have gone into details at the time, and say negative things about their dad.  I took it as Dean not bothering to set the record straight not that he actually believed he was John's favorite.

I've always believed that each brother grew up thinking the other was the favorite.  I think Sam heard a lot of "Why can't you be more like your brother and follow orders."  I think Dean saw Sam getting a lot of attention, both good and bad. 

Quote

Sam he doted.  Even when they fight that's more attention than they've ever shown you.  

I believe that the YED wasn't lying when he said this to Dean, so it contradicts Bugs and shows that Dean did not really believe he was the favorite.

[rue721]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

Hmmm... I LOVE Home.  We had Nightmares earlier today.  Watching Max is SOOOOOO hard.  He's literally a still-beaten abused child.  His body language and anguish are palpable.  And he's physically HARD to look at.  He's not a super attractive guy.  You see the pain on him.  So, I forced myself to watch, despite how uncomfortable, because that shit is real (there are abused people out there everywhere) and we gloss it over with "pretty" TV-friendly bruises.  Max is not a TV-friendly victim.  Which makes him more real.

I love Nightmare. I like that Max was such a mess, but that the show was so matter-of-fact about it. He looked horrible, he had so much learned helplessness going on that he ended up murdering people using his demonic powers than moving out, and he was just so UNHAPPY. But I feel like the show treated the character with respect. And I thought it was interesting that for their monster of the week, the show chose yet another character who was trapped in a life and way of thinking that he could theoretically have left behind, yet really just couldn't.

I feel like being trapped like that is a pretty major theme of the show. DEFINITELY for Dean. Maybe for Sam, too, in that Sam seems unusually able to transcend it. IMO that's what is so "freakish" about him, if anything is.

Watching a few more episodes from S1 again, I'm actually surprised at how much pressure Dean puts Sam under to go back to the ways of thinking and the ways of life of their childhood. He apparently hadn't been able to leave it behind (and IMO knew from when he was very young that he never would), but nobody aside from Sam or John could ever actually "get it" or be in that way of life with him. So once he thought he'd lost John, I guess he REALLY needed Sam. I hadn't really thought about it before, but I guess he was really lonely.

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It works for me in terms of canon. I mean it makes about as much sense as anything else on the show. I mean, does John climbing out of hell and being able to grab a demon long enough for Dean to shoot him in the head make any more sense? ;)

I thought they did a pretty good job of fitting Mary's reemergence this season into what came before. Or at least I felt like they tried, anyway. 

It's not terrible canon, but nowadays, ghosts seem to get stuck to objects versus places, so it's kind of weird to think of Mary as being trapped in the house for decades. Also, compared to how quickly Bobby got a screw loose after he died, I think Mary was awfully coherent after 20+ years of postmortem house arrest. And in a way, she was sort of too involved and engaged with the present day -- most ghosts seem to be much more fixated or trapped in more of a loop than she was.

I don't think it's terrible, it's just not how ghosts usually got handled after Home. I do think that she was meant to be a little special because she was their mom, and the show wanted to milk that, so some of the awkwardness might be coming from that. Although, I think they could actually have milked that more...and I think that ghost canon actually got better at the time and ghost!Mary suffers a little bit from being a prototype.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I disagree here.  I actually thought this line was a good addition to the script and showed where Dean was at emotionally.  In the early seasons we that Mary's death is still a sore spot for him, and he gets angry when she's mentioned, so I can see Dean wanting to avoid going back to the place where she died.   We see it again in 2.06 when Dean refuses visit Mary's grave. 

It also gave us another brillant moment from Jensen when they walk into the nursey and Dean glances up at the ceiling.

As for Dean letting his walls down, I think its easier for him when he doesn't have an audience.  That's why he walks away because he didn't want to make the call in front of Sam.

Yeah, I'm glad they had that line there (even though IMO it could have been a little more graceful or nuanced or subtle) -- because it really helped show where Dean's head was at.

Also, *Sam* needed to hear it. His head was in a completely different place from Dean's, so it was important for them to actually discuss how they each felt going in.

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That line really needed more clarification.  When did Dean make that promise?  When he was little and carried Sam out of the house?  Seems kind of ridiculous for a 4-6 year old to make that kind of promise.  When he was older?  Under what circumstances?  After John told them the truth about how Mary died?  But then, I think he'd want to go back to see the 'scene of the crime' itself if he was really interested in finding out what killed his mother.  It was just an odd line to me.  

I didn't think it was odd. I thought it was clunky, but the sentiment made sense IMO.

Why in the world would he ever want to go back to that house? His mother was burnt to death and his life was destroyed there.

I would think he would have sworn to himself pretty early on that he was never going back there and nothing like that would ever happen to him again. I mean, how could he have managed to keep going forward if he didn't make a vow like that?

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Missouri's skills as a psychic are suspect. If she really knew Dean then she wouldn't have said he was a goofy looking kid, except to be mean. All the information she said about Sam, she could have gotten from John.

Her skills are definitely suspect, but at the same time, something must have been going on with her given that she knew about the supernatural. She might not have had psychic knowledge, but she did have special knowledge, and you gotta wonder how and why that came to be!

IMO her teasing was both meant to be funny, and was meant to be revealed as a diversion tactic by the end, when it was revealed she was covering for John. IMO she was continually distracting Dean (by doing things like literally interrupting his thoughts and telling him to stop thinking) and bringing his and Sam's focus back to him with all that teasing.

I don't think it was meant to be especially harsh teasing in any case. IMO it's pretty innocuous to call someone a goofy-looking kid. Who would really be hurt by that? Pretty much all kids are sorta goofy-looking, that's what makes them so cute.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

IMO her teasing was both meant to be funny, and was meant to be revealed as a diversion tactic by the end, when it was revealed she was covering for John. IMO she was continually distracting Dean (by doing things like literally interrupting his thoughts and telling him to stop thinking) and bringing his and Sam's focus back to him with all that teasing.

Right, that's what I was saying several posts upthread. That she was deflecting attention because of her covering for John. Otherwise her comments to Dean were just mean for no reason.

9 minutes ago, rue721 said:

She might not have had psychic knowledge, but she did have special knowledge, and you gotta wonder how and why that came to be!

She got the information about Jessica from John. I mentioned that in another post upthread as well.

Edited March 24, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Right, that's what I was saying several posts upthread. That she was deflecting attention because of her covering for John. Otherwise her comments to Dean were just mean for no reason.

Sorry man, spent the evening eating chicken wings and drinking happy hour whiskies. Reading comprehension at an all time low ;)

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, rue721 said:

It's not terrible canon, but nowadays, ghosts seem to get stuck to objects versus places, so it's kind of weird to think of Mary as being trapped in the house for decades. Also, compared to how quickly Bobby got a screw loose after he died, I think Mary was awfully coherent after 20+ years of postmortem house arrest. And in a way, she was sort of too involved and engaged with the present day -- most ghosts seem to be much more fixated or trapped in more of a loop than she was.

I don't know that it's really out of line with canon, though? I mean, a house is an object and she did die in the house. If the house had been on wheels and gotten moved, she would've moved with it just like Bobby did with the flask. So, I wouldn't say she was tied to a place, myself.

Also, I thought Bobby deteriorated faster than most ghosts because he was actively burning himself out by engaging in the extreme emotion needed to interact with the "real" world. It seems to me ghosts can hang around without going off the rails as long as they just hang around. Kevin's ghost didn't seem to deteriorate much and he was a ghost longer than Bobby. And there were lots of ghosts in that S7 episode who had been hanging around longer than 20 years and hadn't deteriorated much. I think there's been a few ghosts they've hunted who didn't start killing until decades after they died.

I'm not sure what you mean by her being too involved and engaged with the present day, though? It didn't seem like she was involved with it at all, really. Missouri said she'd been keeping an eye on the place and it was quiet. So I assumed Mary wasn't causing any problems until the poltergeist showed up and Mary decided she couldn't sit by idly while it killed that family. Maybe Mary just never had a reason to try and power up and get noticed before the poltergeist showed up?

I'm not saying it's not the most clever idea out there or that it was a good idea, just that I'm not sure it doesn't make a certain amount of sense in a universe where logic and reason have no place. ;)

[catrox14]

AFAIK, in the show, ghosts don't necessarily stay where they died unless they refused to go with their reaper or they have unfinished business. She really should have been turning into a bad ghost after 20 years.  Now maybe ghost!Mary hoped the boys and John would return to the house where she died but that's a pretty crazy thing for her to think especially after 20 years and as a hunter and she didn't show any signs of being a bad ghost.

So why is that? That's what never made sense to me. Seems like the only reason Mary was still there is that the pictures of the boys were still in the house.

[rue721]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

She got the information about Jessica from John. I mentioned that in another post upthread as well.

I mean that she knew the supernatural existed. That in itself is really unusual.

It's interesting to think about what becomes of all those regular people who get thrust into the supernatural world but who aren't really fighters. I guess Missouri reacted by becoming a scam artist ;) Fair enough I guess.

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure what you mean by her being too involved and engaged with the present day, though? 

Like how she was trying to communicate with Sam and Dean and recognized them as her sons. It seemed to me like she wasn't really stuck in a loop so much as she was trying to communicate with the people in the house (including S & D) about what was going on in THEIR lives. Not about what was going on in her (after) life.

Seems like most ghosts have a lot to communicate and are really obsessive -- but about THEMSELVES. Mary was relatively focused on the people she was interacting with.

Also, I would think she'd have gotten stuck to an object with some sentimental value, not the actual house. Although who knows, maybe the object with sentimental value was the nursery ceiling (yowza!).

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not saying it's not the most clever idea out there or that it was a good idea, just that I'm not sure it doesn't make a certain amount of sense in a universe where logic and reason have no place. ;)

I didn't think it was horrible, but IMO ghost!Mary felt like a prototype. To me, she compared to regular ghosts on the show like these Old Simpsons compare to the regular Simpsons (just not quite right!):

 

[AwesomO4000]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

AFAIK, in the show, ghosts don't necessarily stay where they died unless they refused to go with their reaper or they have unfinished business. She really should have been turning into a bad ghost after 20 years.

But not all of the ghosts in "Of Grave Importance" were bad and some of them had been there a long time. I'm pretty sure the "fancy lady" had been in that house a long time. I think they also discussed with the ghosts that not all ghosts deteriorate at the same rate. I think @DittyDotDot was on to something when she said that Bobby was interacting more and that might have affected his deterioration. Also Bobby had a vengeance thing going, and I think that likely didn't help. Maybe ghosts that don't have that kind of vengeance bent perhaps don't deteriorate as quickly?

And maybe Mary didn't go with her reaper, because she thought that she should stay and try to protect Sam and Dean, but then got trapped there when they left and just remained quiet until someone new showed up and needed saving.

[rue721]

I mean, maybe Mary wasn't a ghost. She didn't die like a ghost. Maybe she was some other thing that they don't know much about (yet).

Poltergeists are supposedly made by a strong wave of emotional energy, right? Maybe ghost!Mary was made the same way. She wasn't really Mary left behind, she was an imprint of the emotion of her death left behind?

Just my personal headcanon, but I like it. :P

ETA:  that was something that I had thought the writers could give to explain how Mary was a ghost AND in heaven after she died -- to say that she wasn't really a ghost, she had just left an emotional imprint in the house when she burnt to death. But they didn't really explain in any case, and I think that's actually better. A show like this should have some inconsistencies and mysteries IMO. Makes it feel more real.

Edited March 24, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

It seemed to me like she wasn't really stuck in a loop so much as she was trying to communicate with the people in the house (including S & D) about what was going on in THEIR lives.

Mary wasn't a problem ghost, though. I mean, the ghosts we've seen are ghosts they've hunted; ghosts who were vengeful and/or insane. Mary, apparently, was able to go the "zen" route and maintain her sanity, so she didn't get caught in her own loop.

However, I would argue everything she communicated to Sam and Dean was about HER life. She communicated HER regrets and sorrow to HER sons.

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Also, I would think she'd have gotten stuck to an object with some sentimental value, not the actual house. Although who knows, maybe the object with sentimental value was the nursery ceiling (yowza!).

Since Mary grew up a hunter, perhaps the house did hold a lot of sentimental value to her? Some people are very attached to their houses and it would hold a lot of memories of her life with John and her sons.

However, ghosts can also be tied by DNA and since she lived and died in the house, maybe that was her anchor, not the house?

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But not all of the ghosts in "Of Grave Importance" were bad and some of them had been there a long time. I'm pretty sure the "fancy lady" had been in that house a long time. I think they also discussed with the ghosts that not all ghosts deteriorate at the same rate. I think @DittyDotDot was on to something when she said that Bobby was interacting more and that might have affected his deterioration. Also Bobby had a vengeance thing going, and I think that likely didn't help. Maybe ghosts that don't have that kind of vengeance bent perhaps don't deteriorate as quickly?

The guy who coached Bobby in Of Grave Importance said you either need to get totally zen or you need red hot rage to move things and interact with the living world. Bobby couldn't get zen, so he used rage. So, yeah, my understanding was that once Bobby tapped into that well, he couldn't turn it off. And, eventually he would lose total control. I'm guessing if a ghost could get zen, it's probably won't be in danger of losing control. Maybe Mary was able to go zen and that's why she was able to keep her sanity?

Edited March 24, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

13 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I disagree here.  I actually thought this line was a good addition to the script and showed where Dean was at emotionally.  In the early seasons we that Mary's death is still a sore spot for him, and he gets angry when she's mentioned, so I can see Dean wanting to avoid going back to the place where she died.   We see it again in 2.06 when Dean refuses visit Mary's grave. 

It also gave us another brillant moment from Jensen when they walk into the nursey and Dean glances up at the ceiling.

As for Dean letting his walls down, I think its easier for him when he doesn't have an audience.  That's why he walks away because he didn't want to make the call in front of Sam. 

I remember an interview from Kripke where he debunked this.  His original idea wasn't even about brothers, it was about a reporter drove around the country investing the Supernatural.  (Night Stalker 2.0).  Then it got changed somehow to being about the brothers.  When he pitched it to the network, he was asked if the story would have enough material for five seasons and Kripke said yes.  Then like a game of telephone this got twisted into Kripke having a five year plan.  He never had one.  IIRC there was even mention that Kripke at one point even imagined the show ending with Dean killing Sam. 

I have zero issue with the sentiment of the line, it's just kinda cheesy dialog IMO.  Something about 'I promised myself'.  Like Scarlett O'Hara's 'I'll never be hungry again!'   That worked for Scarlett. She WOULD make a vow outloud shaking her fist at the heavens. But Dean making an actual promise to himself to never go there again.   IDK.  As a child he was so traumatized he didn't talk for a while.  Later, he got upset when Sam talked about Mary never coming back.  A presumably silent vow to never return to Lawrence KS seems .... IDK ... too simplistic for the complexity of the situation. 

 

ETA:  Maybe if he simply said - 'I had to leave that place behind me, and now you want to go back?'  

Edited March 24, 2017 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

 A presumably silent vow to never return to Lawrence KS seems .... IDK ... too simplistic for the complexity of the situation. 

I can see Dean telling himself that because we know he doesn't like to deal with his issues.  He likes to bury them.  So I can see Dean telling himself that as a way to avoid dealing with his feelings about Mary.

[mertensia]

It was a badly written line is the problem. Try saying it out loud. It sounds bad. It would have sounded better to have him say something like "I just don't know if I can go back. I haven't ever been able to go back. I haven't wanted to."

Part of my problem with Missouri is that she met a traumatized little boy and years later....laughed about how he looked then and got all coo-ey sympathetic with Sam. Talk about jarring.

[SueB]

32 minutes ago, mertensia said:

It was a badly written line is the problem. Try saying it out loud. It sounds bad. It would have sounded better to have him say something like "I just don't know if I can go back. I haven't ever been able to go back. I haven't wanted to."

Part of my problem with Missouri is that she met a traumatized little boy and years later....laughed about how he looked then and got all coo-ey sympathetic with Sam. Talk about jarring.

This.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, Missouri's skills as a psychic are suspect. 

I said it was your perception because 'favored' wasn't a term used by either Sam or Dean.

John didn't say Dean was perfect. Sam did. That was Sam's perception of how John viewed Dean. 

I think we are meant to believe that Missouri had real psychic skills.  Was she also using them to distract Sam and Dean from the fact that their father was there?  Maybe.  I don't know.

Isn't that what I said?  That it wasn't only my perception?  So I used the word 'favored' and that wasn't the term used by Sam. Don't get hung up on a word.  It's just an expression.  Sam looked at the dad yelling at his son and said that John never treated Dean 'like that'.  'Like that' was getting yelled at, humiliated, and belittled.  To the person at the receiving end of that kind of treatment, it would seem that the other sibling, who didn't received that kind of treatment ("you were perfect."), would be  'the favored one', or in a favored position, or being shown a certain amount of favor.  

I remember when my oldest brother first went off to college, there were several years when both my sister and I knew that he was Mom's favorite.  She still loved us, and I didn't doubt that.  But oldest son getting straight A's in college and med school, and working his way through and generally not being much of nuisance, sure beats a still bratty teenager at home, doesn't it?   Even though I understand the reasons, it doesn't change the fact that he was Mom's favorite during that time.  That's how I interpret Sam felt.  Dean was 'perfect' - he did what John expected him to do.  (Whatever his reasons for that.  So did my bro, fwiw.)  Sam didn't want to just do as he was told.  And he caught hell for it.   

13 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I've always believed that each brother grew up thinking the other was the favorite.  I think Sam heard a lot of "Why can't you be more like your brother and follow orders."  I think Dean saw Sam getting a lot of attention, both good and bad. 

I almost agreed with this, until I thought about it more.  I don't know how Dean could have thought that Sam was the favorite, especially since he probably overheard John saying the "why can't you be more like your brother" line to Sam at least once or twice.  (They lived in such tight quarters, it would have been hard not to, imo.)  I mean, I remember over-hearing my dad say it to my middle siblings about my oldest brother when he didn't think I was around and I got second-hand embarrassment from it.  Ouch.  That line stings.  It never made me think they were the favorites over the oldest one used as the benchmark.  Getting bad attention is not better than getting little attention.  (I don't believe Dean never got any positive attention from John.  Nor do I believe that Sam never got any positive attention from John.)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

(I don't believe Dean never got any positive attention from John. 

He probably got something here and there but not so much that John saying "I`m proud of you" didn`t immediately lead to Dean thinking "fucking hell, he is possessed". Which, he was. So such acknowledgment seemed to have been a huge aberration for John.

Dean (and Sam) also heard in Phantom Traveller how a guest character spoke about John gushing about Sam and being proud of him. So while this was news to Sam, I don`t think to Dean so much. I can see why Dean thought Sam was "the favourite". Dean and John didn`t butt heads like Sam and John but that`s because Dean put in all the work. And since he knew he was doing that, he knew John wasn`t "nice" to him out of favouritism.   

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know how Dean could have thought that Sam was the favorite, especially since he probably overheard John saying the "why can't you be more like your brother" line to Sam at least once or twice.

We know so little of the details of their childhood.  However, we do know that in DALDOM, dream Demon Dean said "Sam, he loved, Sam he doted on."  That didn't come out of nowhere.  So, while Dean may have gotten into less trouble, more was expected of him, his childhood was cut off earlier, so he may have felt that Sam was favored in some way.

Just as a personal note, when I was a kid I used to think my sister was my mom's favorite because she always got her way.  And, I mean always.  As an adult, I actually decided I was the favorite, from more subtle observations, but I couldn't reconcile all the special treatment.  So, a couple of years ago (without accusations of favoritism) I just asked my mom why my sister always got her own way.  My mom said it was because I was more easygoing and go with the flow, while my sister would throw tantrums.  So, it turns out my hurt feelings as a child was all due to "squeaky wheel gets the grease."

Edited March 24, 2017 by Katy M

[companionenvy]

While I agree that John was a lousy father who did a number on Dean psychologically, the "I'm proud of you" line is a little more complicated than people are suggesting.

Dean didn't realize it was the demon because John would never say he was proud of Dean. Dean realized it was the demon because he said he was proud of Dean for using one of the Colt bullets to save Sam. Dean then tells the demon the real John would be furious that he "wasted" a bullet (by the way, I don't interpret that as Dean thinking John would actually believe saving Sam was a waste -- rather, he'd expect Dean to have come up with another way and be angry at him for letting the situation escalate to the point where he had to do it). 

Dean does ask John "is this really you talking" when John tells him he's proud of him in "In My Time of Dying," but at that point, John has gone a lot further than praising Dean for a specific incident -- he's conceded that he put too many burdens on him, acknowledged his role in the family, and then said that he was generally proud of him.

Again, no nominations for Father of the Year here, but none of this means that John never praised Dean or said he was proud of him after a tough hunt. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

37 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

So such acknowledgment seemed to have been a huge aberration for John.

I don't know.  I agree with what @companionenvy envy said above.  I got plenty (IMO) of positive feedback from my dad when I was a kid.  "Good job","Way to go",  etc.  But NEVER heard "I'm proud of you." until I was an adult.  (And only once.)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

41 minutes ago, Katy M said:

However, we do know that in DALDOM, dream Demon Dean said "Sam, he loved, Sam he doted on."  That didn't come out of nowhere.  So, while Dean may have gotten into less trouble, more was expected of him, his childhood was cut off earlier, so he may have felt that Sam was favored in some way.

I also think that was from a different period of their childhoods.  It makes sense to me that the "Sam, he doted on" thing may have been when Sam was a baby.  Sure, Sam needed more attention and care because infants do.  Dean, unfortunately, got stuck with the helper role because he was older and able to do more for himself.  I'm not saying John was right to do that, or that he was wrong.  (How often does this happen in families where the mother was not burned on the ceiling?)  It just is.  So, in really young Dean's mind; Sam got doted on.  And Sam probably did get doted on more when he was younger, for the reasons above.  

In Bugs though, I think that's referring to a later period of growing up - more like the teenage years.  When Dean was "perfect" because he did what was expected of him and he did it well and so did not incur John's ire like Sam did when he wanted to play soccer instead of practice his bowhunting.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 I got plenty (IMO) of positive feedback from my dad when I was a kid.  "Good job","Way to go",  etc.  But NEVER heard "I'm proud of you." until I was an adult.  (And only once.)

I`m not saying Dean never heard "good job" but I highly doubt he got that much praise either. John seemed like the type to take a job well done as a given but criticize mistakes. And Sam as a child and teenager obviously didn`t want to fight and get yelled at a lot but I highly doubt he would have been content with the treatment Dean got either. It probably looked more enticing from the outside in comparism to what he got but if somehow Sam had started doing what Dean did and got the same treatment in return, he would have quickly decided that this wasn`t what he wanted either. Grass is always greener on the other side - until you step on it.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I also think that was from a different period of their childhoods.  It makes sense to me that the "Sam, he doted on" thing may have been when Sam was a baby.  Sure, Sam needed more attention and care because infants do.  Dean, unfortunately, got stuck with the helper role because he was older and able to do more for himself.  I'm not saying John was right to do that, or that he was wrong.  (How often does this happen in families where the mother was not burned on the ceiling?)  It just is.  So, in really young Dean's mind; Sam got doted on.  And Sam probably did get doted on more when he was younger, for the reasons above.  

In Bugs though, I think that's referring to a later period of growing up - more like the teenage years.  When Dean was "perfect" because he did what was expected of him and he did it well and so did not incur John's ire like Sam did when he wanted to play soccer instead of practice his bowhunting.  

Yeah, but on the other hand, Sam was allowed to play soccer and be in a play.  Dean knew about hunting and ghosts at a much earlier age than Sam.  I'm sure that John threw Sam some bones once in a while just to keep the peace.  I'm not saying that that made Sam the favorite.  I'm saying it could make Dean think that Sam was the favorite.  For instance, John's fed up with Sam's whining, so he says OK, they'll stay in one place for a whole semester so Sam can join some activities, make some friends, and Dean thinks to himself, I do every thing he tells me to do and I was never allowed to make friends. 

[ahrtee]

I think this thread has gone off topic and well into bitch v. jerk territory with all the talk about who is the "favored son" and which one John preferred/praised more.  All I want to point out is that "getting more attention" is often viewed as being favored, *even if the attention is not necessarily good,*  and ESPECIALLY if the parent doesn't usually give any praise, just criticism.  

When we were young, my sister and I fought for our father's attention, and in different ways.  She was the rebel and got a lot of attention--all negative; I was the good girl and was pretty much ignored (unless I did something wrong, at which point I was blamed as "going bad, just like my sister.")  So I wound up resenting her for getting all the attention as well as setting an example that I was held up to, for good or bad, and kept trying to get positive feedback; and she resented me for being a "goodie-goodie" (or, in Sam's words, "Perfect") that (in her opinion) was sucking up to dad.  It's a no-win situation, and *NEITHER ONE OF US* was favored (or given any kind of favorite status).  In dad's mind, she got attention because he thought she needed help/wanted to "straighten her out," and I was (mostly) ignored because he *expected* me to do the right thing and so it wasn't anything worthy of praise.  It was all in our own perception.  

I really think this discussion needs to be moved.

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know.  I agree with what @companionenvy envy said above.  I got plenty (IMO) of positive feedback from my dad when I was a kid.  "Good job","Way to go",  etc.  But NEVER heard "I'm proud of you." until I was an adult.  (And only once.)

I've only gotten one "I'm proud of you" from my dad, too.  And the funny thing is it had to do with Supernatural.  We had somewhere we had to be at like 11:00 a.m. and so I turned on the TV to TNT to an SPN rerun that I wouldn't care that I missed the end of.  A commercial came on and I shut the TV off because I knew we would have to leave soon.  My mom asked what happened.  I said I turned the TV off because we have to leave soon and didn't want to bother with the commercials.  My dad said he was proud of me for not watdhing the commercials.  I don't know if he realizes that's the only time he said it, but I kind of almost wanted to laugh that out of everything in life he was proud of me for not watching commercials, LOL.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Getting bad attention is not better than getting little attention.  (I don't believe Dean never got any positive attention from John.  Nor do I believe that Sam never got any positive attention from John.)

When you have a father who is so absorbed in his work (including hunting, preparing for hunts, researching for hunts, and being gone for days at a time) *any* attention is good, because it acknowledges that you exist and that he knows you're there.  (I'm not talking about abusive relationships, where generally the less attention the better.)  But when a father is so absorbed in his own business, he generally won't notice when things are going well (and therefore give positive feedback), only when they're going wrong.  So chances are the only positive attention either boy got was if it related to hunting--just because John didn't even consider anything else as important.  So, while that might seem that Dean would get more positive feedback than Sam, it's also likely that John wouldn't praise Dean for "doing his job" but *might* praise Sam for doing something he didn't want to do (or wasn't so good at.)  

There's also the probability that John just couldn't express the more positive emotions.  And if he saw everything in life as a "teachable moment" (which I think is likely, since he was trying to teach them how to stay alive) then he'd be more likely to give what he thought was "constructive criticism" than any praise.  

My mom was an artist, and gave my sister and me art lessons from the time we could hold a pencil.  And she never oohed and aahed over anything we made--instead, she would tell us what was wrong and how to make it better.  My sister took that critique and it made her more self-confident because she knew what she wanted it to look like and could decide what to do with it (including ignoring the advice).  I took that critique and it made me more self-conscious, because it felt like I could *never* get it right.  Different characters, different perspective, different results.  

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I can see Dean telling himself that because we know he doesn't like to deal with his issues.  He likes to bury them.  So I can see Dean telling himself that as a way to avoid dealing with his feelings about Mary.

I don't think it's clear Dean's anger with Sam on the bridge  was necessarily because he hadn't dealt with her death, but rather that he thought Sam was being disrespectful of her memory by being so matter of fact about her death. Grief manifests differently in everyone so it's not necessarily that Dean shuts down or avoids dealing with Mary's death so much as this IS how deals with it.. Little is known about how either brother dealt with Mary's death between the moment it happened until the pilot, aside from Dean saying he stopped speaking for a time as a 4 year old and, later, 8 or 9 year old Dean telling Sam to stop asking questions cause he didn't want to know the answers and he wanted Sam to be a kid just a little bit longer. It's unknown if Dean cried every night for his Mommy; if he asked questions about Mary's death or he didn't need to ask because he watched her die in the most gruesome fashion.And that's why he didn't want Sam to have to learn the full truth about her death.  ***

Quote

It wasn't just my perception that Dean was 'favored'.

:Isn't that what I said?  That it wasn't only my perception?  So I used the word 'favored' and that wasn't the term used by Sam. Don't get hung up on a word.

I came to the conclusion that it was an important word in your viewpoint since it was used to  compare and contrast how Missouri and John treated Dean and Sam, respectively, in back to back episodes and why you thought Dean was surprised that someone might not favor him. Or did I misunderstand? 

***ETA :

I think Dean not wanting to visit Mary's grave matches with him swearing to himself he'd never go there again. I didn't have much problem with how the line was written or acted. I mean I've sworn to myself many a time that I wouldn't go to a certain place or talk to a certain person again because of the pain it caused me. I even remember telling a friend of mine that I could not go to a particular place and when she asked why I wouldn't go, I told her it was because "I swore I'd never go back there again". I didn't find it clunky or unrealistic. And I thought Jensen did a good job with the line reading.

I was thinking about Shadow as the episode that Jensen said he struggled with getting to that emotional availability to show Dean's vulnerability about Sam leaving. I thought he really did a good job with that scene.

Edited March 24, 2017 by catrox14
more thoughts.

[catrox14]

17 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That line really needed more clarification.  When did Dean make that promise?  When he was little and carried Sam out of the house?  Seems kind of ridiculous for a 4-6 year old to make that kind of promise.  When he was older?  Under what circumstances?  After John told them the truth about how Mary died?  But then, I think he'd want to go back to see the 'scene of the crime' itself if he was really interested in finding out what killed his mother.  It was just an odd line to me.

 It could have just been a thought born of the moment he watched the place he lived in with Mommy and Daddy and Sammy and it's all burning which in his little 4 year old brain = 'This is a bad place. Mommy got hurt forever in that bad place. I don't like it'. Later as he grew older and probably kept having flashbacks to that night and bad dreams of that 'bad place', it became a deeply rooted fear and going back was off limits in his mind. Dean didn't have to articulate it until he was forced to in Home , and that fear was articulated as a promise to himself that he won't go back there.  

[companionenvy]

Redirecting a little bit, this discussion has reminded me of something I've been wondering: is there actually any evidence that John knew anything about Sam's connection with Azazel or the demon blood before season 1? Because I often see that assumed in discussions, but I'm not sure if it is fanon or canon.

Based on what I remember, though, it seems that John didn't know that there was any cause for concern about Sam until the boys themselves told him about the visions. Then Azazel talked about his "special plans" for Sam and the other kids like him in "Devil's Trap." It is also quite possible that he got somewhat more specific before he and John made the deal in "In My Time of Dying."

John had figured out the six-month birthday connection, which might logically have led him to suspect that the demon wanted something with Sam and the other kids, but that had been a recent development; I don't remember any evidence that he knew about the other kids of the first generation like Ava and Andy. In any case, John apparently hadn't known that Mary had been killed by a demon at all until, at earliest, shortly before season 1 began.