Speculation Only

[SueB]

Love of Pie maneuver. I'm on board.

But speaking of Abbadon, somehow she got ahold of Crowley's blood (Lola I think), and used it to go back in time to get Crowley's son Gavin. So yes, Sam could go back.

[AwesomO4000]

ETA: Metatron has been hijacking the word or God for awhile, what if while they're finally addressing the issues with heaven they come across a legitimate prophecy that states something like if The Righteous Man takes The Mark he will burn it out of existence with the power of pie or love of pie.

 

With Dean's luck it would be cake instead.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "The Things They Carried" episode thread:

I think Dean is HOPING that since most Angels can take out demons, Cas (or someone Cas can bring), will take Dean out if Dean goes off the deep end.  He doesn't have much of a plan beyond that.

 

Unfortunately, unless there has been a change in how angels operate (which is possible), I'm not sure that this is a realistic hope. When Dean is a demon, he is a knight of hell. He can heal himself. (And I have some questions concerning this - see * below). Abaddon could put herself back together even. My point being that knights of hell are presumably a step above the usual demon. Now the problem is, if a demon is powerful, even regular angels have trouble smiting them. Castiel could not smite Alastair for example, and it almost turned out to be that Alastair was able to "exorcise" Cas until Sam - with powers given to him originally by Azazel (another unusual demon who wasn't burned by holy water?) - killed him. Oh. Ouch. I just came up with another awful thought. (See ** below.)

 

So summing up, Dean might not be as easy to "smite" as Dean might think he is, especially with Castiels' diminishing powers and the fact that there just aren't very many powerful angels left alive - as in all of the archangels we know of are either dead or trapped in hell.

 

* I have been thinking and now wonder whether despite being demons themselves if knight of hell powers are entirely demonic. Since they presumably come from Lucifer, and Lucifer didn't exactly play by demon rules - i.e. he needed permission - maybe some of the powers aren't of demonic origin. Now Abaddon presumably could possess without consent like a demon would, but she could self-heal, like an angel and presumably Lucifer under good circumstances - i.e. he was in a preferred host like Sam - could. I don't think Abaddon could even be killed by the Colt - meaning would knights of hell be one of those things that the Colt couldn't kill? I'm thinking yes and that that is a Lucifer-given talent rather than demonic. Now the blade presumably would kill him, but it would have to be from someone who has the mark I'm guessing. Problem: Dean is the only one left with the mark, and since Cain couldn't kill himself, I'm thinking Dean can't kill himself either (and burning her up didn't even get rid of Abaddon).  There could be another de-demoning, but how long that will last and if it lasts for a shorter time each time is another question. If the mark is its own entity in some way, it's really not going to want to go down, and might hang on to Dean as its last "host." Which brings me to...

 

** I don't think they would, but it is interesting that the most powerful demons - including Lilith - couldn't be killed with usual smiting, and the only thing that could kill them was super-mojoed Sam. I am hoping that they aren't going to go that route, but I would be disappointed at the canon disregard if someone - maybe Castiel - doesn't bring this up. Of course Sam is not going to want to go that route for so many reasons, but canonically he is the most plausible "weapon" they have left. I don't think even Sam would be strong enough in his super-mojoed state - though it might be a close match where they both end up damaging each other into ... something. I don't know how that would presumably end. And since the end-result for Sam might be that he turns into a demon (as it was implied would happen after he killed Lilith), Castiel might have to do some smiting after all. It might be kind of ironic if Castiel was the only one left standing this time.

[SueB]

Brought over from the "The Things They Carried" episode thread:

 

Unfortunately, unless there has been a change in how angels operate (which is possible), I'm not sure that this is a realistic hope. When Dean is a demon, he is a knight of hell. He can heal himself. (And I have some questions concerning this - see * below). Abaddon could put herself back together even. My point being that knights of hell are presumably a step above the usual demon. Now the problem is, if a demon is powerful, even regular angels have trouble smiting them. Castiel could not smite Alastair for example, and it almost turned out to be that Alastair was able to "exorcise" Cas until Sam - with powers given to him originally by Azazel (another unusual demon who wasn't burned by holy water?) - killed him. Oh. Ouch. I just came up with another awful thought. (See ** below.)

 

So summing up, Dean might not be as easy to "smite" as Dean might think he is, especially with Castiels' diminishing powers and the fact that there just aren't very many powerful angels left alive - as in all of the archangels we know of are either dead or trapped in hell.

 

* I have been thinking and now wonder whether despite being demons themselves if knight of hell powers are entirely demonic. Since they presumably come from Lucifer, and Lucifer didn't exactly play by demon rules - i.e. he needed permission - maybe some of the powers aren't of demonic origin. Now Abaddon presumably could possess without consent like a demon would, but she could self-heal, like an angel and presumably Lucifer under good circumstances - i.e. he was in a preferred host like Sam - could. I don't think Abaddon could even be killed by the Colt - meaning would knights of hell be one of those things that the Colt couldn't kill? I'm thinking yes and that that is a Lucifer-given talent rather than demonic. Now the blade presumably would kill him, but it would have to be from someone who has the mark I'm guessing. Problem: Dean is the only one left with the mark, and since Cain couldn't kill himself, I'm thinking Dean can't kill himself either (and burning her up didn't even get rid of Abaddon).  There could be another de-demoning, but how long that will last and if it lasts for a shorter time each time is another question. If the mark is its own entity in some way, it's really not going to want to go down, and might hang on to Dean as its last "host." Which brings me to...

 

** I don't think they would, but it is interesting that the most powerful demons - including Lilith - couldn't be killed with usual smiting, and the only thing that could kill them was super-mojoed Sam. I am hoping that they aren't going to go that route, but I would be disappointed at the canon disregard if someone - maybe Castiel - doesn't bring this up. Of course Sam is not going to want to go that route for so many reasons, but canonically he is the most plausible "weapon" they have left. I don't think even Sam would be strong enough in his super-mojoed state - though it might be a close match where they both end up damaging each other into ... something. I don't know how that would presumably end. And since the end-result for Sam might be that he turns into a demon (as it was implied would happen after he killed Lilith), Castiel might have to do some smiting after all. It might be kind of ironic if Castiel was the only one left standing this time.

All excellent points.  I think Dean HOPE they will come up with a way to kill him, I'm not sure it'll work. 

[catrox14]

Quoting myself from "Paint It Black"

Not a fucking thing makes sense right now and I am SUPER disappointed. I'm trying to hold out hope they have a reason for this apparent lack of continuity.

 

My fanwank is it seems Dean has never told Sam that Cain didn't kill Abel out of jealousy but to save him from going to Hell, and that the Mark is not a curse, but like a THING that Lucifer created to make Cain a Knight of Hell. It's more a like a sentient being attached to Cain and then Dean. Nor, it seems, has Dean told Sam that the Mark will literally kill him if he doesn't kill.  Right now that is a HUGE GIANT SIZE OF THE GRAND CANYON plot fail.

 

Assuming that what Sam finds on Websummon (bleh I hate that name. RIP Search the Web :() is the standard Cain vs Abel lore which says the Mark of Cain is a curse from God and will protect Cain from death but dooms him to wander the earth alone, Sam might be thinking the curse can be lifted therefore it's not terminal.

 

Sam evidently does not know what Dean knows and since he and Dean have not shared their separate knowledge with each other, they are going at it from cross purposes, which is FUCKING STUPID.

 

 

 

I was perusing wikipedia re Cain and Abel....and something interesting....
 

n Christianity, comparisons are sometimes made between the death of Abel and that of Jesus, the former thus seen as being the first martyr. In Matthew 23:35 Jesus speaks of Abel as "righteous", and the Epistle to the Hebrews states that "The blood of sprinkling ... [speaks] better things than that of Abel".(Hebrews 12:24) The blood of Jesus is interpreted as bringing mercy; but that of Abel as demanding vengeance (hence the curse and mark).[41].

 

 

So if Dean is Cain here and Sam is Abel does this point to Sam being 'righteous' and will sacrifice himself to save Dean? Or could this point to Dean finally being "the Righteous Man". 

 

The way Sam and Dean are pretty much not telling each other what they may or may not know...it's pissing me off.  And the writers have compelled me to use fucking wikipedia for any kind of insights. 

 

What do you all think?

Edited March 26, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

I think that suffering, and what blood in particular symbolizes, is *really really* different in actual Christianity than it is in the world of this show. (Well, as far as I know anyway -- I'm not Christian. So please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!). In Christianity, blood is cleansing -- that's the whole point of drinking "Christ's blood" at Communion, I think? But in the world of this show, blood corrupts. Sam was corrupted by drinking the demon blood. Cain was claiming that his bloodline was corrupted by "bad" blood being passed down. And apparently this Men of Letters thing is becoming even more important, now that it's tied into the Rowena/Grand Coven plotline, and Sam and Dean's connection to that is through their family "legacy." Also, in Christianity, suffering is purifying, but in the world of this show, it's destructive. For example, torture "broke"/destroyed the Righteous Man, it didn't purify his righteousness. So I think that suffering and blood are at best, destructive, and at worst, meaningless, within the world of this show -- and I'm not counting on Sam doing something like "sacrificing" himself for Dean to be a categorically good thing.

 

On the other hand...Even though a lot of the outright religious stuff in this show is run of the mill Sunday School Christianity, there's a lot in how the characters deal with the world and in how the world works that reminds me of Judaism. Stuff like, the whole thing of being marked out as different, and being made to suffer for it (by fate), without knowing why or even what the difference "means" (that stuff especially applies to Sam imo). Or like how there's the whole push/pull of how much and how able they are to "fit in" with "civilians," and how much to reveal about their "real" selves or how much their lives are "real" lives at all -- though meanwhile, hunters can apparently pick each other out pretty much on sight. (That stuff especially applies to Dean imo). I bring it up, because suicide is wrong in Judaism, and martyrdom isn't heroic the way it is in Catholicism or Christianity in general -- but if the choice is between being forced to betray yourself and dying at someone else's hands, or staying true to yourself and dying at your own, then the latter option can be acceptable/preferable. That's why things like the mass suicide at Clifford's Tower happened -- the Jews in York were going to be tortured and massacred en mass by a mob, so they killed themselves rather than letting themselves fall into the mob's hands. I wonder if maybe Dean is going to be faced with the choice of either refusing to kill himself but fundamentally betraying himself in the process (by becoming a demon again, or by killing Sam, something like that), *or* killing himself but staying fundamentally true to himself.

 

Though I don't know how that would work, they can't go into S11 with dead!Dean really. And surely the Mark won't let him just die, anyway. Well, just idle spec :)

[Tippi Blevins]

Rowena isn't my favorite villain by a long shot, but I really hope Metatron doesn't outlive her. I don't think I could take that little fart outliving two redheaded female villains.

 

Maybe she'll get some big mojo from the Book of the Damned and unseat Crowley as ruler of Hell. And then Sam will be like, "Ooops!"

[lmdreamer]

I just rewatched the book of the damned.  charlie said the book could cure any damnation. What if rowena uses it to not only cure dean but crowley as well, turning him human?  Curing them both would weaken them and make them much easier to kill leaving her to step forward as the new queen of hell.  It might be possible to kill crowley with out curing him but are we sure about that?  Also metatron has no grace but has the demon tablet.  Much as he used the angel tablet to make him God, could he use the demon tablet to make him a demon?  Can angels become demons?

[DittyDotDot]

I'm guessing not because angels don't have souls and demons are twisted human souls, but anything seems to be possible these days.

 

Technically, you should be able to kill Crowley with the knife-that-kills-anything-except-when-it-doesn't, but as the name suggests, it may not work. I'd think those demon bombs Kevin made would be effective, or not, depending on the writer of the episode.

[lmdreamer]

But if angels are turned mortal doesn't that mean they are human so then metatron would have a soul now.

[catrox14]

I think angels are not!humans. I don't think they actually have a soul. Only the grace...but that's a very interesting question.

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, I don't think taking their grace away gives them a soul, but merely makes them mortal. But, hey, I really don't know. The closest they've come to this is with Anna, but she was reborn as a human, so it's not quite the same thing. It's a good question, though.

[trxr4kids]

I've been wondering about the vessel thing. Sam was able to be possessed by Gadreel although he wasn't his true vessel presumably because only arch angels need true vessels otherwise they burn them out like Nick. Random angels seem to be able to inhabit anyone whose special whatever that means. Couldn't Dean say yes to some angel or Cas now that he has his grace back and burn out the MoC from the inside out. Gadreel was only able to heal Sam from the inside, although I guess that could have been a lie.

[catrox14]

I've been wondering about the vessel thing. Sam was able to be possessed by Gadreel although he wasn't his true vessel presumably because only arch angels need true vessels otherwise they burn them out like Nick. Random angels seem to be able to inhabit anyone whose special whatever that means. Couldn't Dean say yes to some angel or Cas now that he has his grace back and burn out the MoC from the inside out. Gadreel was only able to heal Sam from the inside, although I guess that could have been a lie.

 

My fanwank is that it won't work because it's Lucifer's Mark. 

[Zalyn]

In dark of the S10 finale (get it?), my suspicion that the boys are going to end up entirely remaking the world, Neon Genesis Evangelion style, is buzzing again.  Each season they dig deeper into the structure of the world's mythos, and now they've gone beyond God's work to the chaos before Creation.  I mean, once you've killed Death, where else do you go? (He was potentially around before God, right?)  At the point that they're beating back the Darkness, they are literally doing the work that God did in Genesis; what will separate them from being gods themselves?  Or maybe they will play kingmakers and install Crowley and Castiel and retire on the beach instead...

[SueB]

Under the "too far" category, as in covering the universe in darkness -- because apparently God brought the light? -- wouldn't it mean that the entire planet is pitch black? And then we've got Death is DEAD. 

 

So, I'm going to spit-ball a few options:

1) It's the Zombie Apocalypse!  At last.  No one actually dies because Death is Dead, so... if you can figure out a way to see people... they just turn zombie.  Hot sauce for everyone! (iZombie cross-over).

2) Time reset.  Almost seems like they HAVE to because this time they broke the world SO BADLY. 

Clues from last night: pictures of Mary, mentioning that they should NEVER have tried to seal the gates of Hell (which they shouldn't have...it's been my position since DAY 1 of Season 8). 

So... they go back in time (blood leads to blood spell ... go back to Mary before she dies).  But then they don't stop her death (Winchester angst!) because they (Sam & Dean) need to stop the Apocalypse. They then watch their own lives for at least the first three episodes from afar (hiding in the bunker...because they can get there). But they make a few interventions along the way.  SOMEHOW they see John (in episode 3 so Jensen can direct him) and interact with him as strangers. Maybe make a small save along the way that keeps John going. Regardless, they relieve they let their lives play out but pull off some small saves without disrupting the timeline for the first half of S11.  For example, maybe they get the Colt and then somehow stop Ellen & Jo from getting killed (take them to the bunker). Then they stop Bobby from dying in S7 and pull HIM in the bunker (okay...it's turning into fanfic now...).   Then by the mid-season finale episode, when they arrive in the bunker -- after Henry's death -- the they from S10 are waiting for the them from S8.  And they stop them from going after the trials.  They pull Kevin into the bunker and they have their little family alive and well.  Along the way they angst about what changes they can make without disrupting the timeline.  THEN they go after Metatron and Naomi.  Stop them, free Cas from mind-control, and we end at the end of "S8" with the boys alive, Kevin & Charlie & Bobby & Ellen & Jo (hey, it's fanfic time!) alive and NO angel possession, no Mark of Cain. Abaddon is still slabs of meat in concrete. 

 

What do you think??

[Zalyn]

Going with your time reset idea, SueB, I wonder if it would be possible for Sam and Dean to change their destiny.  Wasn't Yellow Eyes the big instigator of everything?  If they stopped him from feeding Baby!Sam demon blood and killing their mom, would that be sufficient?   (I'm just coming off The Flash's finale, so I'm seeing parallels). The worst part of that reset for me as a fan would be that they never get to meet Castiel and Crowley (both of whom I'm convinced love Dean in a bizarre divine/infernal way). 

 

So we have a time reset and a complete nuke and pave of the world; those do seem to be the two main options at this point.  There could be a fun episode with alternate realities exploring these options - would be the fun/bizarre genre-breaker episode.  :)

[Demented Daisy]

I have to admit, I would hate a time reset.  Especially one going back to the pre-Carver years.  It's one thing to mess with the continuity/canon he's created, but to go back and screw with Kripke's stories?  That would piss me off.

 

Besides, how is a time reset any better than God showing up and fixing everything?  (Genuine question because I see it the same way.)

[catrox14]

I don't know if they could get away with a time reset TBH.   Dean had the chance in In the Beginning and then they both had the chance in The Song Remains The Same by not ever being born...but because it was always destiny to happen because the angels wanted it so..how can they undo anything now?

 

Now Abaddon and Crowley screwed with the timelines in s9 so theoretically that could be the item in their back pocket they can use without it being something Sam and Dean would fix.

 

I really don't want our boys to become American Gods. That would just plain suck. Do not want. Being a reaper for a day is one thing or a demon...but gods?  That's really pushing it.

[Zalyn]

I'm not a big fan of them becoming gods, but that seems to be a likely thematic outcome of them botching up not just the world, but Creation entirely.  If we'd left it at Season 5, then the world could still exist as it was.  But after opening Purgatory, going beyond Alpha monsters to Leviathans, and now killing Death and unleashing the primordial Chaos, the world is entirely broken without some high-level force to patch things up.  There is also the literary theme of patricide - you kill the father to replace him in the power structure, whether it's one's biological, figurative, or divine father (yes, usually masculine).  Whether that is your intention or not, you're stuck with the job.

 

I'm also not a fan of the Fate reset idea, but it also is one I could see as plausibly logical given where things are.  The story of the Winchesters is one of suffering, self-sacrifice, and perpetual fuckuppery of the universe - a Sisyphean struggle. Given that Dean has had a death wish for quite a few seasons now, I could see him being on board with something like that, no matter how ill-advised.  I would say their story could end in death (and peace), but they screwed the pooch there too.

 

Not advocating any of these, but just trying to think through what the endgame theme is for the story (assuming they are trying for one). They're running out of universe to bork, and it's getting hard for me to see this ending in anything but tragedy or bittersweet closure.

 

ETA: to the question of God fixing things or the Angels wanting things to go down as they did - God's AWOL and the Angels are mostly dead, along with a bunch of other gods and minor mystical beings who worked with the big picture.  That's part of the problem - there's almost no one left to keep the universe running anymore, but also no one to say "no" to the boys (esp. without Death, RIP).

Edited May 21, 2015 by Zalyn

[Aeryn13]

My prediction? The "Darkness" will take a body/host/vessel because a cloud of black smoke can`t monologue or interact really. The world at large will know nothing of the darkness released. Minor consequences will arise but nothing actually apocalyptic. 

[SueB]

Good guess Aeryn.

[catrox14]

I'm calling it now. Sam will be the vessel.

[supposebly]

 

My prediction? The "Darkness" will take a body/host/vessel because a cloud of black smoke can`t monologue or interact really.

 

Not to take away from the prediction, but that's an easy one. ;-)

 

 

I'm calling it now. Sam will be the vessel.

 

And this time, he will wear a black suit. Since it's the "Darkness".

Edited May 21, 2015 by supposebly

[catrox14]

Not to take away from the prediction, but that's an easy one. ;-)

 

 

And this time, he will wear a black suit. Since it's the "Darkness".

 

I have to say, Sammy does rock a suit.  Too bad he's twice the size of Crowley or he could just borrow his black on black attire. 

[DittyDotDot]

Nah, it'll be a woman with an unfortunate name. ;)

[Demented Daisy]

My prediction? The "Darkness" will take a body/host/vessel because a cloud of black smoke can`t monologue or interact really. The world at large will know nothing of the darkness released. Minor consequences will arise but nothing actually apocalyptic. 

 

Just one?  I figured it'd be the Leviathan all over again.  With any luck, though, they won't have the ridiculous gaping maws.  

[catrox14]

OH that's a good point that it would be throughout.  But someone would be the leader unless it's like the Borg

[rue721]

Or it could be like The Mist. It could just descend on the world and everyone would be trapped, and we could have 22 bottle episodes STRAIGHT. :P

 

LOL I don't think that's going to happen, but I actually would prefer if The Darkness were more like The Mist and less like the Leviathan. Just because we've had the Leviathan already, and tbh, (I think) it wasn't even that great.

Edited May 21, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

Oh man. I would totally be on board with The Mist thing.

[SueB]

Hmmm... the Mist...interesting concept.

 

I think it'll be NOT one of the boys. I think giving it a personality IS a real possibility, but somehow that makes it too little.  I must say, I will probably have to stop thinking of ideas (again -- like last year), because then it'll set up the inevitable disappointment if they don't meet my expectations.

 

Still...I like the Mist. 

I'm also going to put it in the episode thread...I'm not sure Death didn't predict this.  I could TOTALLY see him working with God on this one.  Like Randolph and Mortimer, they may even have a $1 bet going.  Death saying Dean would kill Sammy and God saying he won't.  I'd pay real money to see the two of them talking on some other plane of existence about the mess the Winchesters have caused THIS time.

 

Still not convinced there won't be SOME time reset.  They've really set that up as an option. 

 

 

Also, shocked Rowena is still kicking.  She kinda needs to die now.  I hope Cas and Crowley team up to go find her while Sam and Dean try to fix the world.  I'll be pissed if cell phone service works. 

[trxr4kids]

Given how OOC Death has seemed in his last 2 appearances (judging by fan reaction here and there) I wonder if Metatron has bound him like Lucifer did. I know that he's not the only one who has seemed OOC in the last few years but it would make sense if the reason for that was him being on leash. Oh wait that would mean they planned and executed it, wrong show.

[Commando Cody]

God is going to turn out to be the CEO of Biggerson's.  

 

I keep hoping that they kill Rowena off as well.  I never liked her.  She was just a nagging twit.  I can see why Crowley hated her.  

 

I just watched two of Death's old episodes.  Crowley gave Dean a scythe.  It was rumored that it was the only thing that can kill Death.  The other was when Dean was death.  Tessa said Death had a list of names.  She didn't know where the list came from, but if Death gets a list, do you think his name would be on it?  Would Death know in advance if his time is up?  Maybe Death had enough and wanted to be dead.  Or maybe he was just an illusion.  

Edited June 10, 2015 by Commando Cody

[catrox14]

Thinky thoughts inspired by Mick Lady's question in the rewatch thread.

 

So....since Cain never actually lost the Mark before Dean 'killed' him (I put that in quotes because we have yet to see his cold dead really most sincerely dead body)....would Rowena's spell remove the Mark from Cain too since he's the only other bearer.

 

Could the removal of the Mark possibly let Cain come back to life?

 

Did Cain even know he was a Lock for the Darkness? If so could Cain be in cahoots with whomever wanted the Darkness to come back meaning he was willing to let Dean 'kill' him to let the Darkness out?  If Cain knew he was the Lock then he is one selfish dickbag.  Or did he believe that sharing the Mark with Dean took away his responsibilty for being the Lock?

 

SO MANY QUESTIONS

Edited July 3, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Thinky thoughts inspired by Mick Lady's question in the rewatch thread.

 

So....since Cain never actually lost the Mark before Dean 'killed' him (I put that in quotes because we have yet to see his cold dead really most sincerely dead body)....would Rowena's spell remove the Mark from Cain too since he's the only other bearer.

 

Could the removal of the Mark possibly let Cain come back to life?

 

Did Cain even know he was a Lock for the Darkness? If so could Cain be in cahoots with whomever wanted the Darkness to come back meaning he was willing to let Dean 'kill' him to let the Darkness out?  If Cain knew he was the Lock then he is one selfish dickbag.  Or did he believe that sharing the Mark with Dean took away his responsibilty for being the Lock?

 

SO MANY QUESTIONS

 

I'd think if Cain was really dead, removing the Mark wouldn't allow him to rise again. But, if he wasn't really dead, then the spell should have also removed the Mark from him. Personally, I'm of the belief that Cain is most sincerely dead, but that doesn't mean they can't bring him back in some fashion--alternate reality, flashback, dreams and more are all possibilities on this show.

 

As to how much Cain knew...I would guess that he knew he was the lock. Maybe that's what he was trying to tell Dean was one of the burdens of bearing the Mark. I would also assume he never shared the Mark before because he knew it would curse someone else, but killing Abaddon--Collette's killer--was too much a temptation to resist. I would guess he figured once Dean killed Abaddon he'd then have Dean kill him and the legacy of the lock would be preserved. I don't know though, maybe he didn't know anything about the Darkness?

 

It might be interesting to learn that Lucifer did tell Cain about the Darkness, though. I'd think Lucifer might not really want the Darkness set free again even if the Darkness had been "corrupting" him, so to speak. Lucifer did seem to not want his father's most beautiful creation--the planet--destroyed and the Darkness would probably hamper his Machiavellian tendencies. Hmmm, something more to ponder.

[Mick Lady]

Thinky thoughts inspired by Mick Lady's question in the rewatch thread.

 

So....since Cain never actually lost the Mark before Dean 'killed' him (I put that in quotes because we have yet to see his cold dead really most sincerely dead body)....would Rowena's spell remove the Mark from Cain too since he's the only other bearer.

 

Could the removal of the Mark possibly let Cain come back to life?

 

Did Cain even know he was a Lock for the Darkness? If so could Cain be in cahoots with whomever wanted the Darkness to come back meaning he was willing to let Dean 'kill' him to let the Darkness out?  If Cain knew he was the Lock then he is one selfish dickbag.  Or did he believe that sharing the Mark with Dean took away his responsibilty for being the Lock?

 

SO MANY QUESTIONS

 

Oh God you have opened a *shit* can of worms for me now! As long as The Mark was shared, didn't it work as a lock? If only one person had "half" The Mark, would the Darkness still be held back? I always thought what Cain meant when he said there was more to The Mark (or whatever he said, I'm not going back to watch right now!) was that you turned into a Demon if you died with it on. Now I' thinking he knew about The Darkness. He almost had to didn't he? But how can only one person with half The Mark hold back The Darkness? Death almost said as much.

[Aeryn13]

Death said the Mark functions as both lock and key. And that it is important that at least ONE person has it at any given time. That person can share it and it would basically double the lock-and-key-effect. If five people had it simulteanously, every single one of them would serve as lock-and-key individually. You could also then kill one person with the Mark and still have full protection left. That`s why God said he would kill Dean only if Dean transferred the Mark first.

 

They didn`t say it but it was also the reason when Dean turned into a teenager and lost the Mark, that the Darkness didn`t rise then. Because at this point Cain was still alive somewhere and HIS mark worked perfectly fine.  

 

Lucifer seems to have transferred the Mark wholesale while Cain only multiplied it - I`m guessing Lucifer might have been able to take it off him and give it to someone else since a) he was an archangel or b) God had intended it for him. Whereas any of the recipients down the line probably could only "clone" it like Cain did with Dean. 

 

As for Cain knowing about the Darkness, since the writers pulled that out of their asses in the Finale, I doubt even any of them knew about it at the time the Cain episodes were written.  Of course they could retcon it to their liking but Cain was killed in episode 14 and I would comfortably bet everytiing I own that when that ep was written, noone on the show had the slightest idea on how to close out the Season, let alone thought of anything like the Darkness. They admitted they pulled Demon!Dean out of their asses and it was never pre-planned, just a random "hey, what if" idea (which was blatantly obvious in the execution), this will be the same. 

 

I recently rewatched some Babylon 5 where the creator had meticiously planned out the entire story of an entire five year arc. You can see the difference. When something is clearly planned out and little clues are put in you can come back to later and go "oh, that`s what it was about", entire time-travelling that makes sense, that shows.

 

The SPN writers can - in the aftermath of a Season - give interviews on what they meant to convey and story plans and basically cover their asses and pretend they had it all figured out all they want, the difference in both approaches will always be stark. 

Edited July 4, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Omegamom]

I think Aeryn13 is right: The Mark is lock and key, but so long as at least one person has it (and its associated mind-bending amorality leaking through from the Darkness), the lock is closed. It can be removed by death, via the First Blade or Death personified, but otherwise can only be transferred or removed via the spell from the Book of the Damned. So, while Cain was still alive, there was redundancy--if Cain had killed Dean in The Executioner's Song, he would still have the Mark, and the Darkness was restrained, and vice versa when Dean killed Cain. As long as one copy of the Mark, transferred properly, exists on one person, then the lock holds.

(Y'know, this thread is supposed to be spoiler-free...hah.)

Also, Babylon 5 has spoiled "All Along the Watchtower" for me; now, whenever I hear it, I get flashbacks. Still love it, but it now has extra layering...

[catrox14]

AFAIK. There is nothing in this thread that is a spoiler. Everything we are discussing is spec from all the episodes aired. 

 

That's weird, BSG used All Along the Watchtower too.  I never watched Babylon 5. I tired SO many times. Just not my cuppa I guess

[Omegamom]

Whoops! Yeah, I was mixed up, it was BSG, not Babylon 5. Duh. Hey. SF TV shows starting with "B", easy to mix them up...not.

::wanders off to bang her head against a wall::

[catrox14]

Heh. Happens to us all!

 

Okay, so I was re-watching First Born.....and you know....WTF are they doing.

 

Okay do Cain said that he and the other Knights of Hell were bringers of chaos and darkness.....so how exactly can he be the finger in the dyke of Darkness if he's bringing the darkness.

 

Why am I even thinking about this???

[DittyDotDot]

I'm pretty sure Cain meant darkness metaphorically in that instance...like, they did a lot of dark shit.

[catrox14]

If we accept the premise that The Darkness is just the amoral/evil state of being that Death said it is and that it pre-exists God, the smoke itself is not the Darkness, it's metaphorical as well and is just a physical manifestation of evil/amorality. (Unless, of course, we are going to get an Illyria kind of thing which OH GODS WHAT IF THEY GET AMY ACKER AND SHE IS ILLYRIA.  My brain would shut down because of the awesomness of Illyria vs the Winchesters. And would probably re-kindle my bittercakes about Angel being cancelled....but I digress).

 

That said I'm doubtful it will be a physical monster like the Leviathan. I think it's going to be the state of amorality that it will cause in humanity and everyone becomes Soulless Sam essentially. Demons use smoke to transport themselves into vessels. I don't think the black smoke is the actual monster/evil thing. Cain was a demon. His soul was twisted, just like Dean. Neither used smoke as their method of transport to go from body to body.

 

So for me, given that I think the Darkness is metaphorical as in causing dark bad things to be done,  I'm back to how can Cain, the Bringer of chaos and darkness be the Lock and Key against the Darkness?

[DittyDotDot]

I'm just saying that I don't think the show had even thought of "The Darkness" as of First Born. I think, in that episode Cain was just talking about the bad things he and the Knights did.

 

I'm still assuming that The Darkness will posses people because how else will they be able to snark at the Winchesters? that's the whole reason pretty much every monster on this show has always taken human form, IMO. I would be very pleased to be proved wrong, but I'm just guessing the Darkness smoke will dissipate and possess folks very similar to how the Leviathan black goo got into the water and possessed people.

[catrox14]

I understood what you meant. And I'm pointing out that they really didn't think that through LOL. 

[Omegamom]

It would be so nice if they got all crazy optimistic and planned an arc two or three seasons in advance, with planned spots to abort it and tie up loose ends if the show were to get canceled...

Maybe they are secretly sadists who throw stuff at the wall, snickering, "Let's see those damned fans make sense of THIS one! Mwahahaha!" And then they sit back and eat popcorn and lurk on forums like this, going, "Oooh! Carver! Didja see THAT theory?!? We've got them totally tied up in knots!"

Then they high five each other...

Edited July 8, 2015 by Omegamom

[catrox14]

Carver claimed he had a 3 season arc which probably would have ended with Dean dying if s10 was the end of the line. And I can find spots where I think they might have been thinking ahead. But seems tuff they have the germ but don't remember all the details or they don't care and to hell with continuity

[catrox14]

s11 spec...

 

So because of the creepy as killer rabbit which totally pinged the Donnie Darko rabbit for me, I decided to refresh myself on Donnie Darko since I haven't watched it in a long time.  

 

But from wikipedia and SPOILERS FOR DONNIE DARKO!!!!

 

 

 

Donnie wakes in the middle of the night to find Frank the creepy ass rabbit outside who tells him the world is end 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds.  He goes back into his house and finds a literal jet engine in his room. Donnie goes into therapy and talks about Frank but the shrink thinks Donnie is suffering hallucinations etc.. His behavior changes under  Frank's influence, He becomes more violent but also more protective of the things he cares about.

 

At some point he reads a book about time travel wherein time travel can happen when a main universe time continuum is disrupted A tangent universe is created but can only exist for a small amount of time before it collapses into a black hole and destroys the main universe. An artifact is appears in the tangent universe and it has to be taken back to the main universe to reset the time continuum to before the tangent universe is created to stop the main universe from being destroyed.  Only certain people can take the artifact back to the main (primary) universe.

 

 

Now this is part I'm wondering about applying to SPN: 

The book in Donnie Darko describes the roles of the Living Receiver, who receives Fourth Dimension powers to ensure the Artifact is returned so that the Primary Universe continues, as well as the Manipulated Living and Dead. Those who die in the Tangent Universe (the Manipulated Dead) can time travel to appear in that universe before their deaths. They must guide the Living Receiver and create an Ensurance Trap, which forces the Living Receiver to use Fourth Dimension powers and return the Artifact to the Primary Universe. Once time is restored, people will probably have no memory of what happened in the Tangent Universe, though they may have disturbing dreams. Donnie reads the book but does not understand how it applies to him.

  Sam or Dean? or both)

 

 

A VORTEX forms in dark clouds above his house,

Donnie drives into the hills and watches as an airplane descends  and one of it's engines detaches and falls into the vortex. Events of the previous 28 days recapitulate in reverse order and action, propelled by Donnie's powers, until Donnie finds himself in bed in the early hours of October 2. The Ensurance Trap has worked but Donnie realizes he still has to die in order to save his family.

  Again Sam or Dean or both?

 

Just more for my "Rotten in Denmark" musings.....

[SueB]

Carver claimed he had a 3 season arc which probably would have ended with Dean dying if s10 was the end of the line. And I can find spots where I think they might have been thinking ahead. But seems tuff they have the germ but don't remember all the details or they don't care and to hell with continuity

 

"tuff"... is that an autocorrect? I was confused by last sentence.

[catrox14]

LOL I was all excited you were responding to my Donnie Darko post.

I really don't remember it was back in July.

Probably was a typo on my part...maybe I was going for 'Stuff' they had but didn't care enough about it to remember or they didn't care about continuity. I legit don't remember.