S04.E08: Episode 8

[Rap541]

1 minute ago, Ohwell said:

I forgot about Drake and the frogs, but even that didn't warrant George having his henchman burn Drake's house down.   And poor Morwenna gets drawn into it.

Oh agreed - trust me, I do indeed think George is a shitty person. I just think Ross isn't the innocent and kind upperclass fellow with a heart of gold that he clearly likes to think himself to be. The sad reality of Drake is that Ross tacitly encouraged Drake to provoke George and he did it knowing full well he was pressing a huge hot button of George's. I mean, why not just sleep with George's wife and imply it happened because she's never loved her born in the lower class husband? Oh wait - THAT HAPPENED TOO!

 

6 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I don't know what circumstances would have warranted calling for a duel, but if George can do that, he should just have a duel with Ross and settle this feud once and for all.  I could at least respect him for that.  But we all know that won't happen because George is a coward.   

Dueling is illegal and *George* would never be given the pass that Ross and whasshisname the maybe rapist of Demelza because class is an overbearing monster bitch in this period of history and George is low born.

George is a coward, but he's a coward in part because he's well aware of his place in society. Yes, people might respect him for dueling Ross and winning, but he would end up with a hangman's noose around his neck in part because he's the grandson of a blacksmith who killed a noble Poldark. 

[Zella]

One of my history professors liked to point out that in the Victorian era, the upper class were rarely the ones who perpetuated strict notions of Victorian morality. By benefit of their class, they could get away with a lot. It was the middle class and the nouveau riche who were more likely to jump on board with the strict morality because they saw it as a way to confirm their social standing. Though this isn't a Victorian era-story, I think the same dynamic is at work. The Poldarks can afford to do atypical things and still preserve their social standing. The Warleggans can't.

The flip side of that, though, is the Warleggans have badly misread which rules are and are not important, so George is constantly doing things that are deeply offensive to the ruling gentry, such as his treatment of the locals and his attempts to strongarm the gentry into submission.  

Edited November 25, 2018 by Zella

[TigerLynx]

This is why I like Dwight.  He ACTUALLY is a good man who tries to help other people, doesn't abuse his position, and loves and respects his wife.  Both Ross and George are bullies, and idiots.  Demezla taking Ross and George to the taxidermist sounds better all the time.

Edited November 25, 2018 by TigerLynx

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, Rap541 said:

George was a commoner

They are all commoners—none of their families have a title. The Poldarks are landowners as well as Cornwall long-timers, and that's what gives them their social edge.

2 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I don't know what circumstances would have warranted calling for a duel, but if George can do that, he should just have a duel with Ross and settle this feud once and for all.  I could at least respect him for that.  But we all know that won't happen because George is a coward.

Not to mention it would end the story. ;-)

1 hour ago, Zella said:

The Poldarks can afford to do atypical things and still preserve their social standing.

I think that's always been the case, though, hasn't it? Money and/or social standing always allows you to break the rules. But you have to know them to break them, and as you pointed out later, George, especially keeps breaking the wrong rules. I think his uncle has a firmer grip on them—or is focussed so much on financial gain that he doesn't care about the rest. I feel like the uncle isn't nearly as concerned about being socially accepted as George is. The uncle just wants as much filthy lucre as he can get his hands on. If it destroys some of those snooty stuffed shirts along the way, great, but that's not his ultimate goal.

[Zella]

7 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

 

I think that's always been the case, though, hasn't it? Money and/or social standing always allows you to break the rules. But you have to know them to break them, and as you pointed out later, George, especially keeps breaking the wrong rules. I think his uncle has a firmer grip on them—or is focussed so much on financial gain that he doesn't care about the rest. I feel like the uncle isn't nearly as concerned about being socially accepted as George is. The uncle just wants as much filthy lucre as he can get his hands on. If it destroys some of those snooty stuffed shirts along the way, great, but that's not his ultimate goal.

Yes, I agree that's always been the case. My professor discussed it in regard to Victorian England, but I think the general principle is applicable to most historical contexts.

And you're right--the uncle really doesn't give a damn one way or the other except for the money! I think he has thicker skin than George, so the slights don't matter to him. Money is the best revenge in his eyes, but George could never be content to just be richer than his adversaries and childhood tormentors. 

[Ohwell]

19 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Not to mention it would end the story. ;-)

Not if Ross won. ;-)

Seriously, I would not miss George at all.

[Magnumfangirl]

Don't forget what Agatha told George about Ross and his friends' treatment of George in school.  It wasn't that George was beneath them, it was that he tried to deny his roots.  They didn't care that his granddad was a blacksmith, it was the putting on airs that irritated them.   

[Rap541]

1 hour ago, Magnumfangirl said:

It wasn't that George was beneath them, it was that he tried to deny his roots. 

Except that we just have Ross's possibly faulty memories on this point. Somewhere George got the idea that being the grandson of a blacksmith was a problem. Ross can say it wasn't a problem amongst he and his chums and it was all George but.... there is a point where I just don't see George as so completely awful a person. I think the actor plays George with a lot of subtle emotion so I might be biased. 

[Ohwell]

I can't feel any sympathy for a man (or woman) who would, for example, send his henchmen after a defenseless woman.  Even if George didn't know or expect that they would have dogs chasing her, what did he expect for them to do?  Rape her? 

Ross isn't perfect by any means, and I do get tired of his brooding (even though he looks hot doing it).  But George is a POS and I can only hope that his children don't grow up to be like him.

[Rap541]

Don't get me wrong - George isn't a lovely person who makes kind and loving choices at all. But one of the reasons George is an utter piece of shit to Ross is that Ross pretty openly treats George like a piece of shit and then rubs George's face in it. And Ross *never* stops poking the bear, and acts innocent and surprised when George responds with escalating the shitty behavior.

And awful person or not, the adultery is hard to get past

23 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I can't feel any sympathy for a man (or woman) who would, for example, send his henchmen after a defenseless woman.  Even if George didn't know or expect that they would have dogs chasing her, what did he expect for them to do?  Rape her? 

I think this was a different time. Unfortunately, the time this work is set in, it's actually Morwenna who would be the one who was at fault. Even her happy ending of Drake puts her in the position of being an idiot who married beneath her social standing and who technically betrayed her husband's memory and abandons her son. Now *we* know her husband was an asshole rapist and that her mother in law was never going to let her raise that child but really, society of her time would see her very harshly.

[Driad]

All the more reason for Morwenna and Drake to emigrate to America as soon as they can afford it.  Ross might be critical of them for going to the rebels he fought against.  Add me to the list of those who do not care what Ross thinks.

[TigerLynx]

I agree BOTH George and Ross are despicable along with Ossie and his horrible mother.  Unfortunately, during the time this story is set in, Demezla, Elizabeth, and Morwenna would be judged much more harshly than the men ever will be.

I really hated Demezla telling Ross that her feelings for Hugh weren't as deep or had not lasted as long as Ross's feelings for Elizabeth, thereby, seeming to hint that Demezla's infidelity was so much worse than Ross's.  NOT TRUE AT ALL.

[Calm81]

I really hope the next season will leave out the name Hugh. The way demelza says the name irritates me, as well. It’s like Ross and Demelza kept intentionally bringing up the names of the other lovers to make the other one jealous. 

When Demelza received those flowers from Adderly, she knew damn well how that would piss Ross off and she’d also be pissed if she woke up to a romantic gift from Elizabeth for Ross.

I usually like Demelza but she rubbed me the wrong way this season. Acting like “I don’t know how to act - I just want to be nice!” When you know a man has verbally said he wanted to sleep with you regardless to the husbands feelings and you STILL allow him to chat your ear up with sexual innuendos and touch your shoulder.

To smile brightly while lighting up like an Xmas tree at the sight of fresh flowers with your husband watching (even though I have zero sympathy for Ross who got another woman pregnant while married to Demelza with a rape, and continuously smiles with his eyes when Elizabeth walks into a room with Demelza watching - two wrongs don’t make it right) tells me she knew what she was doing.

I’d rather watch Dwight. Even though I think Poldark to be sooooooo attractive, Dwight is turning out to be the eye candy I’m seeking when a new episode hits. He’s so mature, caring with a great sense of reasoning and keeps Ross in check.

However, I was beginning to get worried that he and Demelza would end up getting too close while the scenes would switch to Ross and Caroline getting very close. Caroline was acting like a second wife to Ross in London, always demanding his attention and to join her for dinners lol. 

I’m sooo happy that Mowanna finally married her true love so we can move on from those two. That shit dragged on and it was tiresome. Morwenna was overly dramatic about every single thing even if 90% was rightfully warranted. 

I’m rambling.

P.S. George is a horrible man but the actor who plays him is wonderful. That was a standout performance by Jack Farthing. 👏 

[Rap541]

55 minutes ago, Calm81 said:

When Demelza received those flowers from Adderly, she knew damn well how that would piss Ross off and she’d also be pissed if she woke up to a romantic gift from Elizabeth for Ross.

Well, she certainly SHOULD have known this but I feel like Demelza was played  as dumb as a box of rocks this season when in previous seasons she had some understanding that she was an attractive woman who received attention from men despite being lowborn.

I'd like to say it was all intentional, that Demelza was actually intending to piss Ross off as a sort of subtle revenge but I think she was supposed to be playing it innocent which just made her look dumb. At the same time, Ross loses points with me when his wife pointedly tells him that she needs guidance from him on how she's supposed to handle men like Adderly and his advice is …. and "HOW DARE YOU HAVE MORE OFFERS TO HAVE AFFAIRS THAN I, YOU WHORE!!!"

1 hour ago, Calm81 said:

To smile brightly while lighting up like an Xmas tree at the sight of fresh flowers with your husband watching (even though I have zero sympathy for Ross who got another woman pregnant while married to Demelza with a rape, and continuously smiles with his eyes when Elizabeth walks into a room with Demelza watching - two wrongs don’t make it right) tells me she knew what she was doing.

This.  Ross has been an ass but Demelza has previously been the clever one in all of this so its hard to buy the whole innocence routine. 

1 hour ago, Calm81 said:

P.S. George is a horrible man but the actor who plays him is wonderful. That was a standout performance by Jack Farthing. 👏 

Agreed. When I have an ounce of sympathy for George - a character that even in the books seems to be trying to out asshole himself at every turn - its due to the nuances that Jack Farthing is bringing, Makes me wonder what that actor would do with a role like Dr. Ennys. 

[Zella]

11 hours ago, Rap541 said:

Agreed. When I have an ounce of sympathy for George - a character that even in the books seems to be trying to out asshole himself at every turn - its due to the nuances that Jack Farthing is bringing, Makes me wonder what that actor would do with a role like Dr. Ennys. 

That would be an interesting role reversal! I think he could pull it off. The only other thing I've seen Farthing in was Blandings. He's the main character's loser son and was weirdly endearing and hilarious! There are several of his scenes in that show that I will randomly think of even now and still crack up thinking about. I'll be curious to see where his career takes him after Poldark. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Zella

[nara]

On 11/18/2018 at 10:30 PM, TiredMe said:

I thought I was watching a rerun in the beginning when I saw Francs and Agatha. I actually picked up my remote and pressed info. Lol

Lol. I had the same reaction!

On 11/19/2018 at 12:45 AM, voiceover said:

 

At least Caro has snapped to attention.  Fingers crossed we next find her doing good deeds in Cornwall proper, and letting Dwight chase her and baby Enyses 'round the drawing room.

Agreed! It annoyed me when he was detached from her after returning from the war and when she returned the favor. Both cases were understandable, but made me yell at the tv.

On 11/19/2018 at 6:30 AM, Neurochick said:

George never loved Elizabeth, he loved what she represented.  He didn’t even know her.

Elizabeth could have broken her engagement to Francis when Ross came back home.  She was engaged to Ross and only got engaged to Francis because Ross was presumed dead, so since he wasn’t dead...

I don’t think Elizabeth would have been happy with Ross.

I think that George did love Elizabeth, but let his greed and desire for revenge distracted him. That’s one of the things that makes this situation so tragic.

 I don’t think that Elizabeth and Ross were ever engaged, they were in love. Also, engagements were considered legal contracts back then, and breaking the arrangement with Francis would have had serious repercussions for her reputation. Additionally, it would have created a wedge within the Poldark family. I think that Elizabeth did the right think and mostly did a good job of hiding her feelings for Ross.

 

 I always liked Elizabeth, though I wanted her to exert more influence over her husband to stop his ungenerous behavior to the people. I do think it’s good that this chapter of the story is over and  the love quadrilateral is over, but I will miss her. 

[CTrent29]

Quote

And you're right--the uncle really doesn't give a damn one way or the other except for the money! I think he has thicker skin than George, so the slights don't matter to him. Money is the best revenge in his eyes, but George could never be content to just be richer than his adversaries and childhood tormentors. 

 

Cary Warleggan had never really endured harassment by the likes of Ross (during their childhood) or Aunt Agatha for trying to "rise above himself".  The only way someone from the middle-classes or lower-classes can do this is if he or she had the blessing or support from someone from the upper-classes.  Demelza and Dwight are good examples of this.  The Warleggans never had the support of "noblesse oblige", which is why George had received so much contempt and harassment from Ross and Agatha.  This was Ross' main problem with Elizabeth's engagement to George.  He saw her as lowering herself socially by becoming the wife of a self-made man, especially one who was his personal enemy.  When all said and done, Ross was a bigot in his own way.  And I also thought he was rather patronizing. 

 

This is why I have placed most of the blame on Ross for what happened to Elizabeth.  He was arrogant enough to think he could have both Elizabeth and Demelza for himself - the former as his mistress and the latter as his wife.  This is what he had wanted and made this clear to Verity back in Series One.  Elizabeth had upset his plans and desires by becoming engaged to the very man that he despised - George Warleggan - because the latter was a greedy businessman and had working-class origins.  And Ross had responded in anger by raping her.  I realize that many believe that their "one night together" was consensual.  I don't.  Elizabeth had consented at the last moment, just as he was about to rape her.  I don't regard that as consent.

 

I also despise both Debbie Horsfield and the BBC for being too gutless to be truly honest about Ross' character and what he had done.

Edited December 4, 2018 by CTrent29

[dubbel zout]

24 minutes ago, CTrent29 said:

Dwight

Is Dwight from the middle or lower classes? He's not in Caroline's league socially, but I thought he and Ross were basically equals as far as that goes.

[Llywela]

31 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Is Dwight from the middle or lower classes? He's not in Caroline's league socially, but I thought he and Ross were basically equals as far as that goes.

Dwight is a doctor, which puts him squarely in the upper middle class at worst. He had a conversation with Caroline's uncle which pretty much laid out his social standing - he is a gentleman, so belongs to the same broad social class as Caroline (and Ross, for that matter, they are all gentlefolk), but her wealth put her at the upper end of the scale within that class, while Dwight's poverty put him at the lower end of the scale. So he very much married up, but within his own broad social class - this in contrast with Demelza, who comes from the working class, lowest of the low.

[dubbel zout]

Thanks, @Llywela.

[CTrent29]

On 12/4/2018 at 12:40 PM, Llywela said:

Dwight is a doctor, which puts him squarely in the upper middle class at worst. He had a conversation with Caroline's uncle which pretty much laid out his social standing - he is a gentleman, so belongs to the same broad social class as Caroline (and Ross, for that matter, they are all gentlefolk), but her wealth put her at the upper end of the scale within that class, while Dwight's poverty put him at the lower end of the scale. So he very much married up, but within his own broad social class - this in contrast with Demelza, who comes from the working class, lowest of the low.

Dwight was in error when he stated that he was a gentleman before his marriage to Caroline.  He was not a landowner.  He did not come from an old, landowning family or aristocrat.  Nor would someone from Ross and Caroline's class be caught dead earning a living as a doctor.  Not in the late 18th century.  I don't know why Debbie Horsfield had shoved those words into Dwight's mouth, but she was in error.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, CTrent29 said:

Dwight was in error when he stated that he was a gentleman before his marriage to Caroline.  He was not a landowner.  He did not come from an old, landowning family or aristocrat.  Nor would someone from Ross and Caroline's class be caught dead earning a living as a doctor.  Not in the late 18th century.  I don't know why Debbie Horsfield had shoved those words into Dwight's mouth, but she was in error.

Dwight might not use quite the same words in the book, but he spells out to Ray Penvenen that he does indeed come from a very old family, with ancestors who held rank such as High Sheriff and fitted out ships for the Armada. Impoverished gentry was still considered gentry and it took more than a couple of generations to move from one class to another, so that the son of an old family which had lost its money would still be considered a gentleman - in much the same way that Elizabeth Bennett (Pride & Prejudice) could still claim the rank of gentleman's daughter and demand to be treated as such, despite having no personal wealth to back that claim, and in the same way that Elinor Dashwood and her sisters (Sense & Sensibility) were still considered gentlefolk despite being left destitute when their father died. Heck, Elizabeth Chynoweth in this series is considered a catch because of her ancestry, even though her parents haven't two beans to rub together and their ancestral home is practically falling down (sorry, that's a book detail, I can't remember now if the show really spelled out their predicament in as much detail). It was all about blood and ancestry, which is why George Warleggan struggles, because no matter how much money he makes and no matter how high he rises through society, the people he wants to impress cannot and will not forget that his grandfather was a blacksmith. When Dwight talks to Ray Penvenen in the novel it is clear that money is the obstacle, rather than Dwight's ancestry - Ray at first assumes that Dwight is of much lower class than Caroline and is taken aback to learn that he is not, so clings to the financial distinction between them.

A lot of sons of the gentry ended up going into various professions in this era because their families had lost their money, or because they had older brothers who would inherit everything - typically the law or army rather than medicine, true, but this was a time of great social mobility, when there was a lot of interchange between the middle and upper classes.

But we are getting off topic for this episode now.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Llywela

[Haleth]

I'm so glad I wasn't spoiled about Elizabeth's death.  It really shocked me when George said she had died.  I could have smacked Ross for forcing his way into the house.  He had zero business being there at that time.  For all his "Hugh, Hugh, Hugh" he is really blind to the chaos he causes every time he runs off to see Elizabeth.  I don't hate him for his impetuous, reckless need to stay connected to his former love, but he really is a first class jerk.  Shocking also was the fact that for once he listened to Demelza and did not interrupt George and Valentine at Elizabeth's grave.  

[CTrent29]

Quote

Dwight might not use quite the same words in the book, but he spells out to Ray Penvenen that he does indeed come from a very old family, with ancestors who held rank such as High Sheriff and fitted out ships for the Armada. Impoverished gentry was still considered gentry and it took more than a couple of generations to move from one class to another, so that the son of an old family which had lost its money would still be considered a gentleman - in much the same way that Elizabeth Bennett (Pride & Prejudice) could still claim the rank of gentleman's daughter and demand to be treated as such, despite having no personal wealth to back that claim, and in the same way that Elinor Dashwood and her sisters (Sense & Sensibility) were still considered gentlefolk despite being left destitute when their father died.

 

What "old family"?  From what part of Cornwall or England?  If Dwight truly came from an upper-class family in Cornwall, Ray Penvenen would have known this, by his family name.  Dwight's declaration sounds like some dumb ass invention by Debbie Horsfield.  I'm really beginning to despise her as a writer.  

Edited January 15, 2019 by CTrent29

[Janie Jenkins]

On 11/19/2018 at 7:21 PM, Neurochick said:

I don’t get what’s so great about Elizabeth being a traditional female of her time, at a time where women had no rights.  That’s akin to watching a movie about slavery, where the slave just lets the master beat them.  

I am very late commenting on Poldark, but I just discovered the show.  My comment concerning Elizabeth in the series is that she is  unremarkable.  She is beautiful,  but so are many other women of her era. Her beauty does not strike me as Demelza's and Caroline's do.  I hope to read the book series to fill in all of the feelings and thoughts of the characters for making the choices they make. Which is impossible during a television series.  I may find that I actually like Elizabeth in the books.