S01.E12: Skin Deep

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

After Mr. Gold's house is robbed, Emma keeps a close eye on him when it looks like he wants to track down the criminal and dole out some vigilante justice as payback, and Valentine's Day finds Mary Margaret, Ruby and Ashley having a girls' night out. Meanwhile, in the fairytale land that was, Belle agrees to a fateful deal to give up her freedom in order to save her town from the horrors of the Ogre war.

[Shanna Marie]

I know this is a popular episode, but I don't like it very much. I think it's a mistake to blend Rumple with the Beast because it misses the whole point of the Beauty and the Beast story. Rumple isn't good inside. He doesn't become a better person due to Belle's influence. He doesn't become gentler or kinder while she's living with him. He doesn't become a better person in her absence so he can be worthy of her -- as we see in the present when he's beating a man to death for something that man can't possibly remember (and Rumple apparently entirely took Regina's word for what happened and made no effort to verify it himself. Didn't he have magic that would show him where Belle was?).

I also don't buy the fact that the TLK stopped working because he didn't believe he could be loved. It was working, which was proof that he was loved. He stopped it from working. The only explanation that makes any kind of sense is that he loved the power more and didn't want to give it up.

Spoiler

That even seems to be what Belle thinks in season 5 when she's explaining to Hook why his attempt to TLK the Dark One out of Emma doesn't work, that Emma doesn't think of it as a curse and doesn't want to give it up.

I do like the girls' night out. We needed more stuff like Cinderella, Red Riding Hood, and Snow White hitting the town.

Basically, it's a fairly boring episode if you don't find Belle and Rumple to be very romantic.

I think I may need to watch the real Beauty and the Beast tonight to clear my palate.

[companionenvy]

I don't find Rumbelle romantic at all - but still love this episode, because it isn't clear to me that the writers think they're portraying it as positive. It is a twist on Beauty and the Beast in which, at least as of the place the episode ends, love doesn't reform and save the Beast. Belle is still alive, so there's potential for their story to continue, but this isn't yet a completed or successful B&tB narrative. 

The real WTF part of the episode for me is Belle falling in love with Rumple in the first place. We've spoken about how little it evidently takes for couples to have "true love" in this show, but the idea that Belle loves Rumple is particularly absurd. I'll buy that she's anxious to see layers in him, and she actually isn't entirely wrong when she declares him not a monster. He does terrible things, yes, but he's more complex than I think the term "monster" usually implies - he has emotional vulnerabilities, and the capacity to feel for others (even if he only extends it to a very, very few people). But that's a really far cry from true love. Belle's an idiot for coming back once he lets her go. 

But again, as of this episode, I think the show agrees that she's naive. She doesn't know that Rumple turns Gaston into a rose, so we're shown that the first romantic gesture he makes toward her is predicated on a lie. Even beyond that, while it is genuinely heroic for Belle to agree to sacrifice herself for the sake of her kingdom, it becomes obvious from her speech later that at least part of that bravery comes from a somewhat immature desire for adventure and heroism. I get the sense that if she had loved Gaston, and been more satisfied with her life as it was, she wouldn't have done it. I also suspect that she was romantic enough to have subconsciously believed precisely that she would be able to change "the beast" for the better. Certainly, Regina's line about never suggesting a woman should go back to a man holding her prisoner shows that the show is at least aware of the problem - and Belle goes back because Regina manipulates her into it, which adds to the sense that it isn't being depicted as positive.

It also seems significant that the other plot in the episode involves Mary Margaret's idealistic belief that love will always find a way giving way to the reality of the situation: sometimes love can't and shouldn't find a way. Of course, in the long term, since we know that MM and David really are married and being kept apart by the curse, we can assume that love will find a way for them. But within the episode, it is sending a message that even if you do love another person, that does't mean you stay with that person at all costs regardless of his treatment of you, the moral stakes of the situation, etc. 

Spoiler

If only the show would have maintained this. Everything I'm saying about the relationship here goes out the window in later seasons, when Belle becomes a classic enabler and the writers more or less validate this - any time she is "done" with him, she takes him back without requiring him to demonstrate that he's really changed.

 

But finally, what I love about this episode is that, at least at this point, the show really is doing a great job making Rumple a genuinely complex villain. It isn't afraid to show how vile he is - Gaston is a bit player here, but he isn't presented as a someone whose death/permanent rosification we can cheer for --, but at the same time, Belle and Regina both correctly identify a strain of self-loathing in him, and of course he actually does let Belle go without any reason to believe that she'll come back simply because he has developed feelings for her. 

In the B-Plot: I'm still a lot less sympathetic to MM and especially David than a lot of others seem to be. MM I still feel somewhat worse for because she has consistently shown more qualms about the whole thing than David (she's the one who tried to resist harder at first, and she's the one who ends it here), and she's also the person with less agency, in that she can't force David to leave Katherine. Whereas David is actively deciding both to stay with Katherine and to carry on an affair with MM, whom he acknowledges himself to be in love with. Not to mention the total douchery of getting Valentine's Day cards for both your wife and your sidepiece (and mixing them up, no less). 

As I said in another episode thread, I get David's quandary: he's got the knowledge that he's married to Katherine, with its attendant obligations, but the emotional memory of his real marriage to Snow. But I'm not saying he has to stay married to Katherine. Once he decided to try to make things work with her, he should have given it at least some shot, but when he realized he couldn't do it, he could have left her and started seeing Mary Margaret after a face-saving couple of months. Staying with Katherine while cheating in a pretty public and obvious way with MM is the absolute worst of a few not-great options, and incredibly unkind and unfair to both women.

[profdanglais]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

As I said in another episode thread, I get David's quandary: he's got the knowledge that he's married to Katherine, with its attendant obligations, but the emotional memory of his real marriage to Snow. But I'm not saying he has to stay married to Katherine. Once he decided to try to make things work with her, he should have given it at least some shot, but when he realized he couldn't do it, he could have left her and started seeing Mary Margaret after a face-saving couple of months. Staying with Katherine while cheating in a pretty public and obvious way with MM is the absolute worst of a few not-great options, and incredibly unkind and unfair to both women.

I think that David's unquestionably douchey behaviour here is a genuine attempt to show his cursed personality of a wishy-washy cheater and how it contrasts with Charming the decisive and daring leader with a strong moral code. Unfortunately, they had so little interest in developing post-curse Charming/David that we never got any follow-through on this. 

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

The real WTF part of the episode for me is Belle falling in love with Rumple in the first place. We've spoken about how little it evidently takes for couples to have "true love" in this show, but the idea that Belle loves Rumple is particularly absurd. I'll buy that she's anxious to see layers in him, and she actually isn't entirely wrong when she declares him not a monster. He does terrible things, yes, but he's more complex than I think the term "monster" usually implies - he has emotional vulnerabilities, and the capacity to feel for others (even if he only extends it to a very, very few people). But that's a really far cry from true love. Belle's an idiot for coming back once he lets her go. 

The key is seeing Belle's relationship with Rumple as toxic.

Spoiler

She loves his "dark parts", as she said in 3B. As much as she denies it, she likes that he's evil and she enjoys playing the role of "guiding light". It's a sick game of push and pull.

[companionenvy]

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The key is seeing Belle's relationship with Rumple as toxic.

Oh, yeah. I don't know if I'd go to "toxic" quite yet, but within "Skin Deep," I think we're supposed to have something of a WTF reaction, where we at least trace Belle's feelings to a hero complex and romantic belief in the power of change. 

6 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

 

Spoiler

One of the most interesting thing they did with Rumbelle was the rare moments that the show acknowledged that Belle wasn't all sweetness and light, although I'd argue that this was not consistently shown, and the final season left us with the "Saint Belle" reading of her character.

[andromeda331]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The key is seeing Belle's relationship with Rumple as toxic.

  Reveal hidden contents

She loves his "dark parts", as she said in 3B. As much as she denies it, she likes that he's evil and she enjoys playing the role of "guiding light". It's a sick game of push and pull.

Spoiler

That makes a lot more sense. There's no way Belle would really think Rumple is good and has a good heart when she keeps seeing him do horrible things. I wonder if she says that because she can't admit to herself that she really does love Rumple's dark bits or is scared how others will see her. In the last few seasons the rest of the characters basically roll their eyes when ever she tries to insist Rumple is good and there is a lack of care for her. Which does makes sense how many times are you going to listen to someone claim her boyfriend/husband is good person despite all the murders, lies and betrayals. How many times are you going to believe her when she leaves him because he always goes back. There's also how many times Belle says nothing when the Heroes come asking for help from Rumple and Rumple turns them down. Or her feelings about being "Lacey" for a few weeks and knowing Rumple didn't want to change her back. She wants to be with Rumple and she really doesn't care what he does or says or anything. She's not turned off by what he does or she wouldn't be with him.

[daxx]

I’d enjoy this more if it wasn’t supposed to be beauty and the beast. It doesn’t work as that since the “Beast” was ugly on the outside but actually had a good heart. Rumple...does not.

Mary Margaret and David’s “not date” in grannies was cringey.

Loved the girls night out but I hated the way Ashley was whining about her boyfriend working. When you have a new baby that’s a good thing that he’s trying to provide for you. Whatever I guess.

definitely Stockholm syndrome in this case I think.  

[KingOfHearts]

Skin Deep works better in a vacuum than as a sweet, romantic origin story for Rumpbelle. It doesn't really bother me as a "let's do a twist on Beauty and the Beast" per se. At least Belle stands up to Rumple and doesn't take his crap. She leaves him once it's apparent he's not ready for any sort of relationship. It's a bit dark that she's fully aware of his evil deeds, but her rationalization makes sense. She believes he's under a curse and that once it's broken, he'll change. When that prospect gets taken away, she stops putting up with them. It's a tragic ending, but it's inoffensive to me. 

Spoiler

It's Rumpbelle's relationship later that makes this episode so cringe-worthy.

On 7/8/2018 at 9:30 PM, daxx said:

definitely Stockholm syndrome in this case I think.  

After all the criticism that Beauty and the Beast is a tale of Stockholm Syndrome, I wouldn't mind an adaptation going balls-to-the-wall with that idea as a sort of satire. It's another instance where OUAT needed to be more self-aware.

Spoiler

I would like Rumpbelle a lot more if the show knew it was a textbook example of an abusive relationship. I'm fine with toxic, flawed characters, but not when they're framed as in the right.

Edited July 10, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

Ah, so begins the saga of Rumpbelle, for better or for worse. Without getting into my thoughts on Rumpbelle as it would become, I do find myself being charmed by them in this episode, and I do like their chemistry, and if they had been more like this, I think I could have gotten behind them more later on. But, while I think it doesn't totally line up with what Beauty and the Beast was supposed to be, it does work for more of a metaphor for loving a person lost in their own evil, and not just them looking scary. I appreciate her telling Rumple off, and his reaction when he thought she was dead really was sad. Especially with Regina giving the news looking like a kid at Christmas. 

"Two valentines. Sounds like a complicated life." I still freaking love season one Mr. Gold. He was cool and seemingly in control, but had a more vulnerable side. I even like him more than Imp Rumple, who I loved in season one as well. I also liked his relationships with Emma and Regina, respectively, a lot. He seemed to be a bit fond of Emma, and maybe even vice versa, and he and Regina trying to out villain each other without bursting out into cackles every five seconds. It really did seem like a long term chess game between them. 

I know that figuring out the accents on this show is an exercise in pointlessness, but it still bugs me that Belle is the only one in her kingdom who seems to have an Australian accent, while everyone else sounds British, and have French names. I know I bitch about this endlessly, but the world building in this show makes my head explode in how nonsensical it is.

Of course MM and David are reading Anna Karenina, a famous story about adultery, in their extramarital book club. It is actually interesting in a way watching this, and I think I feel more for them, especially David, in this rewatch than I did first time around. I think you can more see David as a guy who knows, in his head, that he is with Katherine, but because either he got a half assed curse personality, or he just so greatly loves Snow, his heart is screaming at him to be with MM. 

Its really weird, knowing what happens later with Regina and Rumple, seeing this part of the show, especially this episode. 

Spoiler

I would think, watching this, that Rumple would be the one heading towards Redemption, not Regina. Rumple is evil here, oh yeah, but you also see his conflict, self hatred, hints at his tragic backstory, and his love for Belle, and even in Storeybrooke, seems like a more morally grey character with ambiguous motives. While Regina is smugly rubbing Rumples true loves horrible death in his face with glee, is keeping Henry away from Emma just to be an asshole, and is seemingly messing with Belle for the same reason in the EF, and is locking the poor woman up for years forcing her into isolation, with only a creepy lady showing up to grin smugly at her sometimes. Yeah Rumple gets around to being good after awhile, but he has to die for it to happen, but it really is hard to look at episodes like this and see her as a candidate for future Queen of Goodness. 

Liked seeing Snow, Ashley, and Ruby hanging out, and Sean proposing to her was cute, complete with "your carriage awaits" joke. The actors playing Ashley and Sean have also improved, and it was nice to check up on some of the minor and supporting characters, like having Sneezy be the shopkeeper we see while David and Gold are talking. It makes it feel like a real town. 

[KAOS Agent]

What Regina did to Belle by locking her in a tower/basement windowless cell was truly awful. This is another case of her sick behavior. Even if the characters weren't fully aware of time passing during the curse, it's now February and Emma arrived in October and time started then. At this point, Belle has been locked in a dark room in solitary confinement for four months with total awareness of it all. The only visitor she gets is a creepy woman who peeks in and grins at her sick use of power. Regina has some serious psychological problems that she's getting off on this.

I remember when first viewing the episode being somewhat charmed by Rumpbelle and getting really excited for Rumpel to find out and do something about Belle's predicament. He's evil. Regina is evil. This should be an epic revenge campaign.

[Shanna Marie]

One thing that bugs me about this episode: It's set at Valentine's Day, so it's one of the few episodes in the entire series with a firm date stamp. But apparently no one told the Leaf Lady because there are dry autumn leaves all over the street. The town looks like one of those "fall festival" Hallmark movies. Judging by the way the trees look, it was probably filmed in the fall, but if it was set at Valentine's Day, you'd think they'd have swept up the leaves in order to cheat at least a little rather than seemingly strewing even more leaves around. Considering that there don't seem to be any trees on the Main Street area or around the diner, I'm not even sure why there are leaves all over the place. It's such a little thing to be bothered by, but it is a sign of how sloppy they are with stuff like that, where they couldn't even be consistent with when the episode is taking place, even though there are multiple references in the episode to the fact that it's Valentine's Day.

Maybe I'm naive, but on the first time through, I never thought that David and Mary Margaret were having a full-blown affair -- like, actually sleeping together. I just thought they were seeing each other, since they were meeting up in public, like the awkward adjacent tables "no, not a date" in Granny's, or they were doing picnics in the woods in February, which isn't really conducive to removing clothing. Emma was living with Mary Margaret, and there wasn't a lot of privacy in the loft, and David was living with Kathryn. I don't think they'd have been able to get away with renting a room at Granny's. So, if they were sleeping together, I'm not sure where they managed it. It wasn't until

Spoiler

season 4 and the infamous "adultury's not so bad, I've slept with a married man, too" speech that it even occurred to me that they had gone that far.

Not that what they were doing was okay because there was kissing, and an emotional affair is also a betrayal, and David was being awfully wishy-washy. But it's less wishy-washy to live with one woman while dating another than to be sleeping with both women.

And I still mostly blame Regina. David's memories of Kathryn were all entirely fake, with no backup from reality (everyone else in town had actually lived their fake lives for 28 years), and he didn't even get curse memories until the curse was breaking, after time started moving. True, he should have just left, but I tend to cut him some slack because he was in a really weird and impossible situation. He was as much a victim of gaslighting as Henry was, where he was being told that what he knew to be true wasn't true, and he was being told that a lie was the truth, and every time he tried to break away from the lie, Regina upped the gaslighting to put more social pressure on him to give in to the lie.

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

And I still mostly blame Regina. David's memories of Kathryn were all entirely fake, with no backup from reality (everyone else in town had actually lived their fake lives for 28 years), and he didn't even get curse memories until the curse was breaking, after time started moving. True, he should have just left, but I tend to cut him some slack because he was in a really weird and impossible situation. He was as much a victim of gaslighting as Henry was, where he was being told that what he knew to be true wasn't true, and he was being told that a lie was the truth, and every time he tried to break away from the lie, Regina upped the gaslighting to put more social pressure on him to give in to the lie.

Yeah, I still think you're being too generous. The difference between Henry and David is that Henry is being told that he's wrong about things that are actually true. Like, he thinks no one is aging and time has been stopped, and that Emma is the only one who can save everyone -- and he's right, but is being told by Regina (who knows that he is right) that he is delusional.

Whereas while David can't understand why he feels nothing for Kathryn and so intensely for MM, he hasn't actually gotten to the point of saying or believing "Kathryn is not my wife. Mary Margaret is my wife." Again, he doesn't understand why he is feeling the way he does, but he still believes that he has a (real) past with Kathryn and simply  feels an inexplicable connection to Mary Margaret, who he just met. Which means that he can be held responsible for upholding the ethical responsibilities attending to reality as he believes it to be.

I mean, sure, David's case is more extreme, but tons of married guys who have affairs would say that they don't feel anything for their wives and feel a deep connection to the woman they're sleeping with. That doesn't make them sympathetic, unless perhaps there are exceptional, non-selfish reasons that leaving their wives would either be legitimately impossible (divorce is illegal) or even less moral than the alternative (husband is caretaker to a wife suffering from advanced dementia or an equivalent illness).

I do share your sense that it wasn't at all clear to me that MM and David had actually been sleeping together behind Katherine's back, to the extent that I wonder if the S4 line you cite wasn't something of a retcon. The show wasn't so family friendly that they couldn't have implied sex if there was actual sex, and they didn't, even though it would have been an important thing to establish, IMO. Unless the network circa S1 was particularly iffy about Snow White and Prince Charming progressing into full blown adultery, and instructed the writers to play it coy. 

[profdanglais]

36 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I wonder if the S4 line you cite wasn't something of a retcon.

Taking this to All Seasons

[tennisgurl]

Generally I think I assumed that MM and David never really had sex, but that could be because Once is a pretty sex-less show. For a show so built around romance, the most we get is usually the afterglow (Snow and Charming in her and Emma’s place) or just the implication (I assume Gideon wasn’t the result of an immaculate conception), and that’s about as far as they go beyond pretty chaste kissing on screen. I guess because Once always billed itself as a family show (rape, mass murder, and torture are family friendly, but consensual sex should be kept off screen!) that’s all they could really get away with, so it was sometimes kind of hard to gauge what characters had or hadn’t done together. 

[KingOfHearts]

26 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

so it was sometimes kind of hard to gauge what characters had or hadn’t done together. 

Spoiler

Captain Swan fans are now getting traumatic flashbacks of the pre-pancakes era.

Edited July 12, 2018 by KingOfHearts
Added spoiler tag. Forgot this was the episode thread.

[profdanglais]

44 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Captain Swan fans are now getting traumatic flashbacks of the pre-pancakes era.

It was a rough time for us. 

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Yeah, I still think you're being too generous.

Oh, I know. I just find the whole situation so frustrating because it's essential a creepy rape by proxy by Regina, treating people like her personal toys, putting them into relationships they wouldn't want to be in, and that leads them to do things they never would have done if they were in control of the situation. And then they'll have to live with what they did. I find it very hard to blame anyone for what their cursed personalities did because they weren't really in control and the cursed personalities were essentially fictional characters. That means it's all Regina's fault because she seems to have had some hand in creating those personalities, and she's creating and manipulating events to get the results she wants.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Oh, I know. I just find the whole situation so frustrating because it's essential a creepy rape by proxy by Regina, treating people like her personal toys, putting them into relationships they wouldn't want to be in, and that leads them to do things they never would have done if they were in control of the situation. And then they'll have to live with what they did. I find it very hard to blame anyone for what their cursed personalities did because they weren't really in control and the cursed personalities were essentially fictional characters. That means it's all Regina's fault because she seems to have had some hand in creating those personalities, and she's creating and manipulating events to get the results she wants.

Yes it is her fault. She created all these situations. She dug up Kathryn to be David's "wife" to keep them apart.  She flipped out on Mary Margaret when David left Kathryn and made sure to "bump" into David when he was going to meet Mary Margaret and gave him the wrong directions which lead to him seeing windmill and getting his "memories" back.

Spoiler

Later when Kathryn tells Regina she's left David AND wrote a letter telling David to go be with Mary Margaret. Regina burns the letter and framed Mary Margaret for Kathryn's murder. Kathryn's only alive because for some reason she didn't specify murder when making the arrangement for something tragic to happen to Kathryn. If not for the Curse they never would have been in that situation. Had Regina not dug up Kathryn in the first place Mary Margaret and David would have gotten together. This should have been another layer and reason to be furious at Regina. She cursed everyone and picked out their curse identity's even more so for Snow and Charming, because of that both behaved in ways they never would have if not for the Curse. Charming never would have hurt Kathryn because they never would have been together. Snow never would have slept with Whale. But these are things they'll end up having to live with while Regina gets away with everything and never once apologizes or feels bad for what she did.  

 

[Writing Wrongs]

My fave moment is the WTF? look on David's face when he sees what Gold is buying.

[KingOfHearts]

16 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

My fave moment is the WTF? look on David's face when he sees what Gold is buying.

I went back to watch the scene after reading this. ROFL. I never noticed it before. Way to be inconspicuous, Mr. Gold.

[Rumsy4]

When this episode aired, I was all-aboard the Rumbelle train. 

On re-watch, it doesn't hold up. The feel of the episode is so entirely different from the rest of the Rumbelle relationship, that it's hard to emotionally connect it to how it all turned out. Yeah, OUAT--what kind of message did you want to send?

Spoiler

It just didn't make sense why Rumple wanted a maid, whether to serve him or becasue he was lonely. Neither reason makes sense. The writers just wanted this story to fit in with the "Beauty and Beast" tale.

Strangely enough, the "forever" part of the deal really turned out to be true. Belle also ended up not seeing another soul in the Edge of Reason Realm. She also never got to see the world as she wanted to. Magic always comes with a price, dearie. And a deal is a deal. 

Ugh, David Nolan is the worst! It's hard to feel sorry for him, even though I blame Regina entirely. I still feel bad for MM, even though she is also complicit in this affair. I guess I always assumed they were having sex. 

Spoiler

David says here that he didn't want MM to find someone else at the bar, even though he was treating her like a side-piece. He never gets over his possessive attitude over MM. I hate that he never let it go that she slept with Whale, even though it was rapey because of Regina's Curse. But MM never brings up the fact that he slept with Kathryn. Neither does Frederick deck him one after the Curse breaks, apparently. He also gets all offended when James plants one on MM in Underbrooke, but he makes out with Cruella for hours. Much as I love David, he really was a sexist douche-canoe over this. At least it's consistent, I guess, I just wish it had not been played for cheap laughs.

I love Gold's line: Love is like a delicate flame. And once it's gone, it's gone forever.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

I am really behind on my rewatch so I finally forced myself, uh I mean, sat down comfortably to watch this episode which personifies all of my relationship goals.

I do have to admit that there were moments where I did feel some chemistry between Rumple and Belle, but too often, my knowledge of future events and retcons really messed with how I watched this episode, moreso than many of the episodes so far.  Technically, given what we saw of the time Belle and Rumple spent together in this episode alone, it was possible to understand how Belle might naively think that there was a man buried deep within the beast.

Spoiler

I mean, she hadn't seen him flay a man repeatedly yet.  Or realized he stole babies.  And this was before it was retconned that Belle knew from Anna that Rumple was bad news and she actually initiated asking Rumple for help because she was the type of person who chose rocks over people.

As Rumsy4 said, from the start, it made no sense why Rumple would want Belle as a maid.  It would be more consistent if he asked her to give up her firstborn child (would that turn her off him? or was that just a sign of a man who loved children).

Because of my foreknowledge, I must say I laughed when Rumple threw Belle into the dungeon and called it her "room".  He did have quite a few of witty lines in this one.  But it doesn't make it any more disgusting that we were supposed to root for the pairing when Rumple turned Gaston into a rose and watched Belle cut a piece off of it.

Some of Belle's lines in hindsight didn't reflect very well on her.  "I never cared for Gaston.  I could never give my heart to someone as superficial as he."

Spoiler

Why pick a superficial man when you could have a murderer?

And then other issues included Regina knowing full well that a true love's kiss can defeat all curses, or Belle kissing the Dark One-ness away, when we find out later breaking that "curse" is not that simple or easy.  I mean, how many times had Rumbelle kissed by the time the show ended, and he was still the Dark One?  That's why I side-eye Belle's assertion that the Curse didn't break because Rumple didn't believe anyone could love him.  What a bunch of BS.  That jerk was all about the power.

I did find it a clever shout-out to the fairytale that Regina demanded that Rumple state his name.  I'm not sure if the Writers expected us to be surprised that Rumple was "awake" because it was so obvious and we really didn't need this confirmation.

A couple of things that confused me.  How did Regina know about Rumple's feelings towards Belle?  How did she know about the chipped cup?  Why didn't Regina just visit Rumple at night or while Emma was on patrol instead of offering to give her 30 minutes with Henry?  Why didn't Rumple immediately go find and kill Belle's father?  This was the same "monster" who killed the guy who crashed a cart into his son.  

The dialogue in the hospital basement made no sense.  Regina: "Has anyone been here to see her?"  Nurse Ratched: "Not today.  Not ever."  Huh?  Why would anyone be visiting since only Regina had the key-code?  It's another case of characters saying cool lines for the sake of cool lines.

I did like the side plot with girls' night out and the scenes with David and Mary Margaret.  It was angsty but I think the actors played it well.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Camera One

[companionenvy]

41 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The dialogue in the hospital basement made no sense.  Regina: "Has anyone been here to see her?"  Nurse Ratched: "Not today.  Not ever."  Huh?  Why would anyone be visiting since only Regina had the key-code?  It's another case of characters saying cool lines for the sake of cool lines.

I'm going to give the writers this one, and figure that Regina is wondering whether Rumple, besides being awake, hasn't also somehow found Belle as well. Not that it would make sense for him to have left her there if he had, although Regina might think he's cold-blooded enough to do it if he thought it was to his advantage to keep Regina in the dark. 

It is also possible that Regina was saying it for the benefit of Nurse R. Presumably, Regina had some at least flimsy pretext for checking up on Belle. Its plausible that, as with Charming, Regina had presented Belle to the doctors as a Jane Doe with no known relatives; in which case it might make some sense to ask if anyone had finally turned up looking for her. Especially if Regina was pretending that she had acted like a normal person would have, and had made some effort at taking steps that might result in any family that Belle had finding her. 

[Camera One]

9 hours ago, companionenvy said:

It is also possible that Regina was saying it for the benefit of Nurse R. 

That does make sense.  Maybe some doctors like Dr. Whale go down there?  

[KingOfHearts]

13 hours ago, companionenvy said:

It is also possible that Regina was saying it for the benefit of Nurse R. Presumably, Regina had some at least flimsy pretext for checking up on Belle. Its plausible that, as with Charming, Regina had presented Belle to the doctors as a Jane Doe with no known relatives; in which case it might make some sense to ask if anyone had finally turned up looking for her. Especially if Regina was pretending that she had acted like a normal person would have, and had made some effort at taking steps that might result in any family that Belle had finding her. 

The Curse makes everyone's memories and sense of time fuzzy. It could've been a very long time since Regina had gone down there, which is why she felt she had to ask. As for the keypad, someone could've escorted a visitor. (Especially if it were someone like Gold.)

Spoiler

My question is - who else did she have down in her makeshift prison??

Edited August 12, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Iju]

i really hate the "victim falls in love with their captor" trope because it screams stockholm syndrome, but this is belle's story after all. but what i hate even more is how anyone could even think kindly of a disgusting slimy snake as rumple let alone love him. i was so grossed out i even blocked my eyes when the kiss came up. but this episode had the best acting ever since the show started so i'm torn lol