Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[SueB]

People have reactions to visual stimuli independent of context. I don't care if it's a medical video and the patient is under anesthesia, watching them operate on the eye gets a visceral reaction from me.

I don't think it was intentional rape imagery. I think it was showing the brothers United in 'Ruby is evol and needs to die.' But, as I said elsewhere, their give a shit is IMO pretty low on this. Jensen reacted negatively to the image of adean slapping Meg. Kim Manners and Nicky Aycox had to convince him it was appropriate e because Dean saw a Demon', not a girl. I think that's their position.

Edited November 28, 2014 by SueB

[rue721]

But say it was the other way around, a demon in a female vessel going around killing innocent men. Or even killing hunters who would fight it to protect others. Which would make perfect sense for a demon. However, would it visually look like female empowerment, just because it is a woman exercising power over men? Would the context of the scene and characters not matter at all to inform the viewing of it? Because that`s how I couldn`t watch. I`d see a killer and would always cheer for them to be put down, no matter the gender. 

 

We saw Lilith, in child form and later as an adult woman. Apparently she tortured families for kicks and fun. Coming off a scene like that, if a hunter saw this and called her a slur, do sympathies actually turn to her on the spot? And screw what she just did, it`s more important to respect her and someone defending that family is a worse monster just for calling her names? 

 

This would IMO never be true to a male demon so I don`t think it should be for a female one. To me that sends a horrible message and is as far from respect for women as could be. I`m not remotely saying the show is good with female characters but swinging the pendulum completely the other way would be just as bad in my eyes.  

 

It's not that I want to see female characters be similarly violent with male characters (I don't), I actually *would* have the same issue with the imagery if women (or anybody) were pinning and stabbing a man (or anybody) while screaming sexualized insults in his face. I would *not* see that as female empowerment, I would see rape in that kind of imagery, too. I would *not* be able to root for characters who were doing that. If they're on the show, fine, but I wouldn't be able to root for them or to see them as heroic. Since I want to be able to root for Sam and Dean and to watch this show, I can't watch them doing that. So I don't, I don't watch those episodes. YMMV, if other people like those episodes and don't see that imagery, that's fine, but I do and I can't not.

 

Also w/r/t gender:  Hallucination!Lucifer taunted Sam *a lot* with implications that he'd used rape as torture in the cage -- I didn't find that somehow a less horrifying prospect because Sam is male. Thank god they didn't show it and thank god we weren't supposed to root for Lucifer during that, too.

 

I actually thought of that when watching "Ask Jeeves," when the rich women were salivating over the guys like they were fresh meat and Sam looked uncomfortable. I would frankly be shocked to hear that that issue even occurred to the writers, though. I think the show is often just exceptionally tone deaf and I roll with it when possible. Sometimes my reaction to what's happening onscreen is visceral and just rolling with it is not possible for me, though.

 

I don't think it was intentional rape imagery. I think it was showing the brothers United in 'Ruby is evol and needs to die.' But, as I said elsewhere, their give a shit is IMO pretty low on this. Jensen reacted negatively to the image of adean slapping Meg. Kim Manners and Nicky Aycox had to convince him it was appropriate e because Dean saw a Demon', not a girl. I think that's their position.

 

Yes, I agree that that's their position. I don't think the rape imagery is intentional, but I do think the writers/producers are sometimes willfully ignorant. Jensen isn't the only person or even the only actor on this show who has had trouble with similar issues and been public about it.

[Aeryn13]

 

People have reactions to visual stimuli independent of context. I don't care if it's a medical video and the patient is under anesthesia, watching them operate on the eye gets a visceral reaction from me.

 

I get that. Yet - and I realize that it is deeply ironic that actual defense of the writers here is coming from me - I don`t think you can say it`s an intended message then if you ignore context completely. I`m very skeevy about anything involving with eyes, too, so if I watched a documentary on eye operations or a slasher fic where someone`s eye was gouged out, I would cringe. But I wouldn`t say the people who produced the documentary did it for nothing else than to show some gory scenes when the purpose might be clearly educational.

 

Same as I can not see it as the same if some human innocent women would be held down by a stronger man who tries to force himself on her and a superpowered demon only looking like some young woman who manages to get bested by a male hunter in defense of people. Both scenes might make one visually cringe but the first may be glorifying sexual violence, the other would be about taking down a killer and being a hero. And if that is taken as sexist, then the only solution would be to a) give female villains a pass on everything and put their comfort over everything ever or b) never cast women as villains because they are too sacrosanct for that. Neither works for me. 

 

 

Also w/r/t gender:  Hallucination!Lucifer taunted Sam *a lot* with implications that he'd used rape as torture in the cage -- I didn't find that somehow a less horrifying prospect because Sam is male. Thank god they didn't show it and thank god we weren't supposed to root for Lucifer during that, too.

 

I think it was the same with Alistair and Dean, a bit more veiled but IMO also implied. It has just fallen to the wayside somewhat since once Sam went to the worst hell ever, they actually called Dean`s torture onscreen "Disneyland" in comparism. Azazel used a sexualized approach to Dean, both when he possessed John and then Samuel Campbell. Abaddon had that "grab his face and threaten him with demon penetration" scene.

 

There was also this Dean walks into a sex dungeon and the "Chief" makes an innuendo or the vampire tells him he is pretty, then grabs and bites him scene. 

 

So it does happen to the male characters and the leads as well. Actually a lot to Dean when I think about it. And most responses I see to that is either "so hot" (Abaddon), "haha, funny"  (Chief) and even some "he has it coming for being such a bully".

 

I will agree that the writers are often tone-deaf. Those are the people that wrote the "how gay are you" in response to someone knowing the most well-known fairytales in history. Because that makes sense. Guys knowing what Sleeping Beauty means is guy-code for "gay". What`s next, knowing what "coffee" is means you are gay? Ridiculous.

 

Back in Season 1 in the "racism will jump into your face" episode with Racist Truck, someone was recounting how it was back then in the South with a mixed couple and lynching of black people and Dean asks in sincerity why they didn`t go to the cops. That line was idiotic.

 

Recently we had the dog-fucking insinuations that made me hope none of these writers actually have dogs, least of all the nepotism duo. The black woman who calls her warlock dude master, transforms into a literal bitch and wears a collar at all times. Gee, that was not offensive at all, guys. I`m sure, though, they did not even see this.     

 

They`ve tried to handle gender issues, racism, consent, sexual issues, religion and usually find a deep hole to jump headfirst in it because of lack of taste.  

Edited November 28, 2014 by Aeryn13

[rue721]

 I don`t think you can say it`s an intended message then if you ignore context completely.

 

I don't think that anyone has been saying it's the *intended* message. SueB and I both explicitly said we *didn't* think that it was intentional.

[Aeryn13]

But I also don`t think it should be tabu to show scenes a certain way. Pinning a demon to kill them? It is often your best chance or at least a great draw of luck that you would be able to immobilize (at least for a time) an opponent you are otherwise physically inferior to. You need every dirty trick in the book then.

 

And since they have foregone exorcisms and the knife, angel blades and the Colt are the only weapons they have to kill demons, most killings will be stabbings. Mainly in the gut/chest area because in a fight, you should always aim for the biggest mass. And it`s the most natural move. Stabbing someone in the neck would be no less violent and would look much weirder.

 

So by necessity, 95 % of their demon kills will look like that. By their own rules, they can`t do much different, no matter what the demon looks like.     

[Demented Daisy]

It's not that I want to see female characters be similarly violent with male characters (I don't), I actually *would* have the same issue with the imagery if women (or anybody) were pinning and stabbing a man (or anybody) while screaming sexualized insults in his face. I would *not* see that as female empowerment, I would see rape in that kind of imagery, too. I would *not* be able to root for characters who were doing that. If they're on the show, fine, but I wouldn't be able to root for them or to see them as heroic. Since I want to be able to root for Sam and Dean and to watch this show, I can't watch them doing that. So I don't, I don't watch those episodes. YMMV, if other people like those episodes and don't see that imagery, that's fine, but I do and I can't not.

 

Sam said, "You bitch.  You lying bitch."  Dean said (right before he killed Ruby), "I don't care."  No one was screaming sexualized insults in anyone's face.

 

So, are the following rape imagery as well?  

 

• Sam tying down Crowley and repeatedly injecting him, against his will, to cure him 
• Sam tying down Demon Dean and repeatedly injecting him, against his will, to cure him

 

ETA  I would have linked to the curing scenes, but they were throughout the episodes.  Couldn't find decent compilation videos.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

 

I received a warning on another site for coming to the defense of Genevieve Cortese when others had been less than hospitable about her, calling her just about every name in the book (before folks knew she was dating Padalecki). Do I think she was 'ganked' on that episode in that way because she was a demon? No. I think it was specific to her gender and the hatred of her character in particular to that. We can fault her 'terrible acting' all we want (which upon second viewing is

 

I'm saying that the fans would react with virtriol to any female with possibility of sexual interaction involved in the brotherly dynamic and "fans" were waiting for the death of Ruby since she first arrived.

The relationship between Sam and Dean was affectionately (and somewhat creepily) termed Wincest on other boards so would I say that Ruby and other females were needlessly killed to support a female-free Wincest? Yes, and that is what I hate about this show.

Whether or not Ruby was thrown to the ground is irrelevant to me (can always catch that version on General Hospital), the guy she was formerly sleeping called her a bitch and held her in place while his brother stabbed her.

The last thing she heard before death was that she was a bitch before a knife was plunged into her stomach against her will (as she was held in place and not given the option to fight back) then her former lover stepped over her body like it was nothing a spill on aisle 9. Disgusting.

There were any manner of ways she could have been killed, and any manner of things they could have said. Sam could have had a moment of god honest upset for putting his faith and trust in someone who betrayed him, which would have been the natural occurence (IMO) but she went from trusted ally to 'random bitch' in two seconds flat.

How wonderful to learn that Sam can shut off his feelings for a former lover so quickly (well he did shoot the last one so....)

As well to your Dumbo point, Ruby was not taunting Sam, she used Dumbo as an analogy because Dumbo had to believe he could fly before he actually flew. She believed she was doing the right thing and that it would be an honour my Sam to be the vessel for Lucifer (which he eventually was anyway). It wasn't a matter of her mocking and berating him, she was in fact cheering him on in her own demonic way.

 

As to the point about fans and the writing, I'm not trying to be dense but I'm not understanding what fans that hate Ruby have to do with the writers killing her off.  It seems like you are saying that her death and the manner of her death was being dictated to by the Wincesters or Ruby-haters and the writers are bending to their will.  I don't really understand that at all.  And there are plenty of female characters left in the show that are alive and valuable to the show.  So I don't think the show is at all encouraging Wincest whatsoever.  They might want to certainly keep the focus on the brothers relationship which, oddly enough is what the show is about.

[slayer2]

My post was expressing my Unpopular Opinion for which makes me bitter about this show. Which is what I understood this thread to be for, unpopular opinions and bitterness about the show. So without further derailment that's the last I'll say on the subject.

[catrox14]

I never said that you were not entitled to the bitterness portion nor am I attempting to change your mind.

 

But I really honestly am trying to understand what you mean. I don't think that is a question that is out of order here. I've never heard those kinds of discussions that Kripke and Company are actively supporting Wincesters as in the brothers being an actual sexually involved couple which is what I understand Wincest to be all about.  So I was hoping to get clarity on that point. And wondering if you have some other kind of information that points to the showrunners supporting a sexual relationship between the brothers.

[mertensia]

Dean only killed Ruby with a knife because that was the only item he had that would kill her. Sometimes a knife is a knife and not a penis-substitute. If the only thing he had on him that would kill demons was a special baseball he'd've used that. He would have killed any demon who acted as Ruby did, male or female- which is equality. Not perhaps a nice equality but there you go. Equality is like that sometimes.

[amensisterfriend]

More random UOs from rewatching (most of!) S5-S7:

 

I like Garth. 

 

I don't think NewMeg is a big step down from OriginalMeg. I actually find myself enjoying her. 

 

I could not possibly care less about Lisa---and I actually really wanted to like her or at least find her mildly interesting. 

 

Charlie (sp?!), even though she's a 'type' I generally roll my eyes at,  doesn't bother me nearly as much as she bothers most fans. And this probably ties in to my 'unpopular' affection for S7, but I actually like The Girl With the Dungeons and Dragons Tattoo. 

 

If I had to limit my SPN rewatches to either S4/S5 or S6/S7, I'd pick S6/S7. I'd definitely opt for S4/S5 over S8/S9, though :) 

 

I love Death. (Hee---file that under sentences I never expected to type!)

 

I never get sick of Crowley. 

Edited November 29, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[rue721]

I think it was the same with Alistair and Dean, a bit more veiled but IMO also implied. It has just fallen to the wayside somewhat since once Sam went to the worst hell ever, they actually called Dean`s torture onscreen "Disneyland" in comparism. Azazel used a sexualized approach to Dean, both when he possessed John and then Samuel Campbell. Abaddon had that "grab his face and threaten him with demon penetration" scene.

 

There was also this Dean walks into a sex dungeon and the "Chief" makes an innuendo or the vampire tells him he is pretty, then grabs and bites him scene. 

 

So it does happen to the male characters and the leads as well. Actually a lot to Dean when I think about it. And most responses I see to that is either "so hot" (Abaddon), "haha, funny"  (Chief) and even some "he has it coming for being such a bully".

 

I will agree that the writers are often tone-deaf. Those are the people that wrote the "how gay are you" in response to someone knowing the most well-known fairytales in history. Because that makes sense. Guys knowing what Sleeping Beauty means is guy-code for "gay". What`s next, knowing what "coffee" is means you are gay? Ridiculous.

 

Back in Season 1 in the "racism will jump into your face" episode with Racist Truck, someone was recounting how it was back then in the South with a mixed couple and lynching of black people and Dean asks in sincerity why they didn`t go to the cops. That line was idiotic.

 

Recently we had the dog-fucking insinuations that made me hope none of these writers actually have dogs, least of all the nepotism duo. The black woman who calls her warlock dude master, transforms into a literal bitch and wears a collar at all times. Gee, that was not offensive at all, guys. I`m sure, though, they did not even see this.     

 

They`ve tried to handle gender issues, racism, consent, sexual issues, religion and usually find a deep hole to jump headfirst in it because of lack of taste.  

 

Yes, I remember that vampire scene well, as well as the scene that began the episode, of the young girl being pinned by one vampire while her "date" attacked her from the front. Both of those seemed like they *were* intentionally meant to make the vampirism a metaphor for rape, as part of the theme of that particular episode. When Dean saw the book cover of show!Edward Cullen staring at show!Bella as she slept, he even said outright that it looked rape-y, and then later on, after he'd been made a vampire, he went in Lisa's bedroom to look at her in the same way -- *but* the show made the big deal of him *not* going through with it and attacking Lisa and therefore still being able to be cured. Some of that got a little dark for me, but I didn't think it was offensive -- because, in the context that drinking someone's blood is a metaphor for rape in that episode, then it was only the *villains* who were drinking people's blood (including Dean's), it was portrayed as a *bad* thing to do, and a/the victim's POV got explored on screen (Dean's). Nobody was cheering on for someone's blood to get drunk, and that Sam (even without a soul) would allow Dean to go through that while he looked on was a disturbing and horrible betrayal. That whole episode and Dean's storyline in that season up to then in general imo were all about trying not to go on to commit the wrongs that were done to you onto other people, to *not* "visit the sins of the father on the son." That Dean was able to be bitten but not bite someone else was a triumph, which he was rewarded for within the episode (with the cure), and helped counterbalance the longer-arc storyline with Lisa and Ben, where he was trying not to repeat John's mistakes with them but was having a lot of trouble escaping the past. I thought that was fairly well-handled, I actually really like that episode (except for the part in the nest, which I thought was stupid and boring, but not to digress).

 

I'm not saying that sexualized violence is completely off-limits, I think that it can have a place in the show. My issue is that I'm just never, as a viewer, going to be able to cheer it on or see it as heroic. It doesn't matter what the context is, just the visuals of it turn my stomach, and I'm not going to see sexualizing violence, even through the use of sexualized insults, as heroic or even necessary, I'm going to see that sexualization as torture and sadism. Which the show *itself* paints it as when it's directed at the leads (appropriately, imo), and which the show made an entire (imo relatively well done) storyline about w/r/t Sam throughout S7.

 

I also have trouble with the show's use of other kinds of torture. It's very difficult for me to watch something like that scene of Dean torturing Gadreel to the point that he apparently exhausts himself. I'm not cheering Dean on in a scenario like that, I'm sorry, I just can't. I don't care what the context is, it again just revolts me and I can't see torturing someone as heroic. If that's something that a villain is doing, then fine, but I can't root for the hero to do it or think that it's heroic of someone to do it. That's another time when I'll just turn off the episode. The show has also explored *that* issue (the effects of torture) pretty directly not just w/r/t the leads' storylines but also w/r/t bystanders, like in "Repo Man." (I'll take specifics about that to that episode's rewatch thread sometime later tonight or tomorrow, though).

 

Sam said, "You bitch.  You lying bitch."  Dean said (right before he killed Ruby), "I don't care."  No one was screaming sexualized insults in anyone's face.

 

So, are the following rape imagery as well?  

 

• Sam tying down Crowley and repeatedly injecting him, against his will, to cure him 
• Sam tying down Demon Dean and repeatedly injecting him, against his will, to cure him

 

ETA  I would have linked to the curing scenes, but they were throughout the episodes.  Couldn't find decent compilation videos.

 

I feel like this is an attempt at a "gotcha," but I don't get what there even is to "gotcha" about someone's complaint that she's being jerked out of the show by the way a scene's optics remind her too much of real-world brutality such as being raped, and that the experience of being jerked out of the show like that is turning her off of the show altogether. That's how I read Slayer2's original UO, anyway, and it's an UO that I personally sympathize with.

 

If none of the show's scenes do that or have done that to you, that's perfectly fine. I'd bet that none of the show's scenes do that or have done that to many of the show's producers, either. I don't imagine that they're sitting in their conference room twirling their mustaches as they try to figure out how to make the optics of a scene or moment evocative of rape. But personally, I *have* been jerked out of the show in that way when watching certain scenes, so when Slayer2 described Ruby's death scene in a way that made me think she was feeling similarly about that scene as I'd felt about others (I basically ff-ed through the end of S5 in order to have some idea of what was going on, and plan never to watch it again, and therefore have and have had nothing to say about Ruby's death scene specifically), I spoke up to tell her that I'd felt that way, too.

 

Everybody doesn't need to react in the same way, I wouldn't expect us to since we're all not the same person. However, Slayer2 isn't alone in her reaction. It's also not something that within-show explanations, like that the guys "have" to use a demon blade, etc, are really relevant to imo. Even aside from the writers/directors/producers being able to add to the guys' arsenal or change/decide their methods of killing within an episode on a whim anyway, the point is that once the viewer's reaction to the optics of a scene/moment is so strong that it takes that viewer *out* of the show, the in-show explanations are irrelevant to that viewer's perception of that scene/moment anyway. If the in-show explanations had been relevant or sufficient for her, she wouldn't have been jerked out of the show regardless of them in the first place, that's part of the problem.

 

If you're also asking whether I think it's OK when the leads violate men with the show framing the action as though the audience is supposed to have no empathy for those men and cheer the violence on, then the answer is no, I don't find think it's OK, those scenes bother me, too. I don't necessarily find every way in which every character is hurt or violated to be evocative of rape specifically, either. To bring it up again as a relatively recent example of one of the lead's violence against a male character that I had a real problem with, Dean's torture of Gadreel is something that made me debate continuing with the show after last season. I decided to keep watching because there are still a lot of things about the show that I like, so I'm still willing to run the risk of being repulsed by something the characters do or by the optics of a scene or moment in order to keep from missing out on the show altogether. That's a personal decision of mine and I would assume everyone has her own calculus for that.

 

I vastly prefer how it feels to watch a show where I can trust the writers/showrunner *not* to throw that shit onto the screen, however. I love so many things about this show that I *wish* it had writers I trusted like that. My real UO, I guess, is that I actually think the show could have a lot of good mileage left in it, if the people behind the camera actually put in the work to tap that potential. There's never a dearth of good plotlines (though they're often executed in such a half-assed way that you'd never know it), and god help me, I still do find Sam and Dean interesting even 10 years on, and it seems like boredom with those characters is not a common complaint generally. There's no reason that a show with good stories and good characters shouldn't be good altogether imo, and better than the show currently is. The problems look systemic, to me, and I think the crux of the issue is that SPN has never found the right showrunner (or showrunning team). If I had one wish for the show, it would be for Bob Singer (and probably Carver, though I think Singer is more of the issue) to be fired, though I'll have to look over my "fantasy show staffing roster" to come up with who I think his replacement should be.

 

And YES I THINK FANTASY SHOW STAFFING SHOULD BE A THING, way more fun than fantasy football, imo.

[mertensia]

Vampirism has long been seen as sexual; Supernatural is only one of the latest in a long line to make it overtly so.

[Meredith Quill]

Please remember this is not a debate thread. We expect that you all respect each others opinions; there are no 'right' or 'wrong' opinions here, only differing ones. Respecting opinions includes stating yours without being overly caustic, whether it be a positive or negative one, because as the laws of physics dictate; every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

 

Thank you.
 

[SueB]

I'm onboard with Fantasy staffing. We should make it a thing. I know I hate when I get pulled out of a show (for whatever reason).

[Demented Daisy]

 

I feel like this is an attempt at a "gotcha," but I don't get what there even is to "gotcha" about someone's complaint that she's being jerked out of the show by the way a scene's optics remind her too much of real-world brutality such as being raped, and that the experience of being jerked out of the show like that is turning her off of the show altogether. That's how I read Slayer2's original UO, anyway, and it's an UO that I personally sympathize with.

 

(...)

 

If you're also asking whether I think it's OK when the leads violate men with the show framing the action as though the audience is supposed to have no empathy for those men and cheer the violence on, then the answer is no, I don't find think it's OK, those scenes bother me, too. I don't necessarily find every way in which every character is hurt or violated to be evocative of rape specifically, either. 

 

A "gotcha"?  Certainly not.  It was a sincere question asked to clarify what is considered "rape imagery".  Is it the stabbing, the restraint, the violence?

 

I specifically asked about those three instances because they involved restraint and stabbing/injecting.

[mizkat]

Not sure how unpopular this is, but I like both Megs. I also like Cas/Meg and wish they would have explored that dynamic a bit more. It wasn't just the sexual chemistry between them but the idea of angel/demon and who would influence who and how that would work and what would the repercussions be. That said, I wouldn't have wanted to see Meg/Cas on a regular basis, more like a C plot they'd drag out every once in a while. Anything is better than the boring angel stuff going on now. 

 

Another random and probably unpopular opinion: I wouldn't mind seeing Jodie and Sam ride off into the sunset together. I really want both boys to get a HEA because if anyone deserves it, it's them. I like Jodie/Sam because I've always felt like they understood each other, they've both seen their significant others die, and I believe they are two of the loneliest people around. The age thing wouldn't bother me and I actually think Sam would do better with someone older and stable (both job and personality wise) than someone his age/younger and flaky (see: Amelia). The only other person I thought he would pair well with was Sarah, and even though she was his age she had an old soul thing going on and didn't have a problem with the whole hunting thing. 

 

I also wish Bobby was back. These guys need more family than just each other. Even if they're just dropping by for a beer and not always for information, it would be better than this lone cowboy thing they've been doing for the past couple of seasons. 

[amensisterfriend]

Another random and probably unpopular opinion: I wouldn't mind seeing Jodie and Sam ride off into the sunset together.

 

I had never thought much about this, but I can actually see it! 

 

I'm not much of a 'shippy person in general, but after the most recent episode I'm in the minority who kind of loves the idea of Dean/Donna or at least Donna in a more frequently recurring role. Donna is such an awesomely refreshing change from the typical cool/tough/sassy-super-sexy female we (IMO) see too often on SPN. Lord knows these brothers need someone cheery and optimistic in their relentlessly bleak lives :)

 

I think this might be fairly unpopular, but I'm really liking this season.  Not to S1-S3 degrees, of course, but I'd already rank it a whole lot higher than S8 or S9. 

[millennium]

I want Castiel gone for good, and with him the whole Angel/Hell plotline.   Crowley, all of it.    Gone.

[7kstar]

 

 I love so many things about this show that I *wish* it had writers I trusted like that. My real UO, I guess, is that I actually think the show could have a lot of good mileage left in it, if the people behind the camera actually put in the work to tap that potential. There's never a dearth of good plotlines (though they're often executed in such a half-assed way that you'd never know it), and There's no reason that a show with good stories and good characters shouldn't be good altogether imo, and better than the show currently is. The problems look systemic, to me, and I think the crux of the issue is that SPN has never found the right showrunner (or showrunning team). If I had one wish for the show, it would be for Bob Singer (and probably Carver, though I think Singer is more of the issue) to be fired, though I'll have to look over my "fantasy show staffing roster" to come up with who I think his replacement should be.

 

And YES I THINK FANTASY SHOW STAFFING SHOULD BE A THING, way more fun than fantasy football, imo.

I'm hoping Carver is moving into a better place, I agree that many of the stories had great overall ideas but the execution stunk.  So I wish whoever is in the driver's seat of the written scripts, would reflect about the consequences of the long term effects before they quickly pen the story.    I would love to support the fantasy staffing, but I just don't know who it should be. 

 

I like Cas and Crowley but I would love for the angel war bore story to be over.  But I think that is actually a popular opinion.

 

What I find fascinating is all the different reactions we have to one scene.  So I can't blame the production on some UO because I don't think you can predict all of them.  Then some of them, I just wonder what were they thinking, or were they just drinking too much that night???  JMV  :)

[Mulva]

I want Castiel gone for good, and with him the whole Angel/Hell plotline.   Crowley, all of it.    Gone.

Amen!

 

I am so beyond caring about angel politics and Crowley's machinations.  Just send the angels back to heaven and seal hell.  There's plenty of vampires, werewolves, wendigos, etc. for the boys to hunt.

[amensisterfriend]

I'll add to the unpopularity by admitting that I NEVER liked the angels, not even when they were first introduced in S4. I find Castiel enjoyable enough, but I agree that his storylines are the absolute worst! 

[catrox14]

I liked the angels when they were dicks and we didn't entirely understand their motivations. I didn't really like Hannah because she was wishy washy.  I thought she might take over as leader of the angels but nope. I like Castiel before becoming human and I liked human!Cas but I haven't been as fond of post!human!Cas.  I prefer Cas when he hovers between badass dick-adjacent angel and goofy Cas figuring out humanity.

 

I'm not always 100% with him being overly sweet or what have you but I still love Cas when he's involved with Dean and lesser with Sam. Yes I love that he had a more profound bond with Dean and I don't think he needs to have an equally profound bond with Sam. And I'm not particularly interested in his journey away from Dean unless it somehow involves Dean and Sam even tangentially. 

[millennium]

In the "Girls, Girls, Girls" episode thread, bruinsfan accurately contrasted the depictions of Hell and Purgatory in earlier seasons vs. what we see now:

 

 

 

I remember back in Season 3 when we got a brief glimpse of Hell as a vast abyss where Dean was being torn apart by a spiderweb of chains and hooks. Now it's someone's poorly lit basement with decoration by Hot Topic and a bunch of corporate flunkies kissing ass. (Likewise, our first look at Purgatory was an otherworldy sunless forest of black thorns haunted by the bestial ghosts of slain monsters, scary enough that an angel was worried to be there. Later it became some hiking trail in a public park where people with plastic fangs would occasionally jump out from behind a tree.)

 

So right.   Hell has been stripped of all menace, all sense of torment and despair.  And most of the demons seem really, really stupid.   I mean, Hell is still the place where serial killers, family annihilators, lawyers, etc. go, isn't it?   Where's the real evil?  Instead what we get is just a snarkier version of Heaven.   Kirk and Spock were confined in dingier places than that 50 years ago.  It's like the show stopped taking evil seriously after Season 5, apparently because they think laughs play better.

 

Speaking of Girls, Girls, Girls, a lot of people panned it but one small detail I really liked was Sam's reaction to the hooker who was bewitched with an attack dog spell.    As she was splintering the closet door, Sam looked genuinely frightened, to the point that he pulled his gun and was ready to use it on the girl.    I think it's been a very long time since I've seen either Sam or Dean look genuinely scared.   Which is just bizarre on a show about monsters.   Even Fox Mulder lost his shit now and then.

Edited December 6, 2014 by millennium

[amensisterfriend]

After rewatching this week's episode, I think that Donna is easily one of my favorite female SPN characters of the entire series. I love that she's so cheery and resilient and endearingly 'square' instead of that super slick, sexy and sassy tough girl we usually get on SPN. (I really like Jody as well, but in my experience most fans feel the same!) Donna reminds me vaguely of Ava, who I loved as well. 

 

Speaking of characters who I find refreshingly, endearingly dorky in lieu of the super cool 'gritty' types we usually get, I hold the unpopular opinion of really liking Garth. I can't help myself. 

 

I can't tell you how much I prefer Jensen's more natural, pre-S4 voice. I get why some feel the gravelly smokers' growl is sexy and/or a reflection of how much anguish the character has endured, but it just irks me. 

 

I disliked Katie Cassidy's S3 Ruby every bit as much as S4 Ruby, and I never felt like either had chemistry with Sam. Then again, I don't think ANY of the females have had much chemistry with Sam so far! I'd love to see him with a scholarly geek...we need more of those on this show :) 

 

I think Gordon was one of the show's most compelling minor characters. I usually hate vampire stuff, but he made those episodes compelling for me. 

 

This isn't unpopular as much as just bizarre, but there is a weirdly strong correlation between how much I like/dislike Sam's hair and how much I like/dislike a given season :)

 

I fully get why most are disillusioned, but there's still just something about this show for me. Even when objectively I dislike whole episodes or even long stretches of certain seasons, I can't ever quit this show. And the episodes I love are episodes I love and rewatch A LOT...don't ask how often :) 

[millennium]

 I like Castiel before becoming human and I liked human!Cas but I haven't been as fond of post!human!Cas.  I prefer Cas when he hovers between badass dick-adjacent angel and goofy Cas figuring out humanity.

 

 

 

My gripe with Cas, aside from associating him with terrible storylines, is that he's a dimestore Commander Data.   The schtick of him being unfamiliar with human ways is long since played.   There's no growth in the character, nowhere for him to go, except maybe back to heaven, for good.  

[rue721]

My gripe with Cas, aside from associating him with terrible storylines, is that he's a dimestore Commander Data.   The schtick of him being unfamiliar with human ways is long since played.   There's no growth in the character, nowhere for him to go, except maybe back to heaven, for good.  

 

He was a really good cashier! By far the most respect I've had for the character is when he was trying to get by with nothing and then started working at the convenience store and working hard there. Most of the time he's so overpowered and the stuff he's doing is so out of this world that it has zero context. That's true of the other characters, too, tbh. But seeing him as a really conscientious employee and not willing to hurt people to get his way at that point? I liked that. Then he became a grace vampire, which I also liked in a different way. But yeah, that was definitely the arc of his that I liked best and that made me like him the most.

 

I'd be happy if there were no more angels and demons, they've never been favorites of mine. I also can't ever seem to forget that they're in human vessels, those poor schmucks. I really don't like the idea of the guys being bff with angels/demons, because that just seems absurd to me. BUT! As long as the Mark of Cain/Demon storyline is around, I'm OK with them sticking with the "Biblical" stuff, because I actually really like that storyline and like how it's slooooowly playing out.

 

Also, if only there were a way to bring back Gadreel, he's a personal favorite of mine.

 

I can't tell you how much I prefer Jensen's more natural, pre-S4 voice. I get why some feel the gravelly smokers' growl is sexy and/or a reflection of how much anguish the character has endured, but it just irks me. 

 

I disliked Katie Cassidy's S3 Ruby every bit as much as S4 Ruby, and I never felt like either had chemistry with Sam. Then again, I don't think ANY of the females have had much chemistry with Sam so far! I'd love to see him with a scholarly geek...we need more of those on this show :) 

 

I think Gordon was one of the show's most compelling minor characters. I usually hate vampire stuff, but he made those episodes compelling for me. 

 

This isn't unpopular as much as just bizarre, but there is a weirdly strong correlation between how much I like/dislike Sam's hair and how much I like/dislike a given season :)

 

Dean's Batman Voice has long annoyed the hell out of me. I have a huge soft spot for smokers, though, so I just fanwank that he's a chain smoker but they can't show that on camera for FCC reasons. That helps make it endearing rather than irritatingly pseudo-macho.

 

Square characters are fine, but do they always have to be in law enforcement (or possibly IT)? I like when any given random person is shown as basically good/smart/etc. The side characters don't have to be especially kickass or even especially "special" in any way, I just like when they're regular people with regular lives and at least relatively grounded worries. For example (though he wasn't a side character, he just springs to mind), I loved Kevin. The moment that he won me over completely was when Crowley brought in his possessed ex-girlfriend to scare him, the demon left his ex-gf for a second so she could plead for her life, she asked Kevin what was going on, and he said that she was possessed by a demon and *studying at her safety school.* LOL.

 

Agreed on Gorden. He was a big favorite of mine. I hate how the show overall seems to kill characters in order of how interesting they are or how much potential they have for interesting stories. Gorden is interesting and compelling?! He must DIE DIE DIE.

 

What IS up with Sam's hair? JP can pull off long hair pretty well, I don't have an issue with the length. If anything, I think he could just straight up go long instead of doing the "bob" thing so often. Chin-length seems like it would be harder for a man, esp with a long face like his, to pull off than shoulder length or so would be. But my issue is that it often looks so greasy and just not "done" at all. Does he just touch it constantly during the day/while filming or something? But the hair is generally not the best on this show, tbh.

 

It's like the show stopped taking evil seriously after Season 5, apparently because they think laughs play better.

 

Good observation, I think you're right. I think it was really in S8 that the shit hit the fan, in terms of Crowley being just basically their buddy and not scary, and the whole thing of Sam just shrugging off the idea of closing Hell. That really undermined things. Oh, and when Heaven closed up or did that angel dump? Idk, the menace and mystery of *anything* supernatural got undermined over the course of the series altogether imo, but I think that S8 and S9 really made it impossible to take heaven or hell seriously at all anymore. They seem like they're trying to bring at least some of that menace back with the MoC storyline, though, which I appreciate, and they seem like they're maybe getting the angels back in heaven and closing that up, too. Fingers crossed!

[millennium]

Was Season 5 Kripke's last hurrah as showrunner?  

[DittyDotDot]

Yep. He was still around in S6--breaking stories and executive producing, even wrote the season finale--but that was Sera Gamble's first year as showrunner.

Edited December 7, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[amensisterfriend]

Overall, I'll take the widely 'unpopular' S6 and S7 over Kripke's last two seasons :) 

 

Another UO: I really like Roadkill. (The episode, not the object!) I'm always a little sad when it places last in our episode elimination games! 

[catrox14]

I think part of Jensen's voice was deliberate choices and part just his own voice changing as he has aged. My head!canon is Dean blew out his vocal chords in Hell and Cas didn't heal it.

[millennium]

The trouble with the Batman voice is that it doesn't sound natural.   It's as jarring as a falsetto.   I'm guessing the original concept of the Batman voice was conceived to explain why Commissioner Gordon and others don't note similarities between Bruce Wayn'e voice and Batman's ... but jeez, it's a comic book conceit.   I can willingly suspend my disbelief to accept that Batman and Bruce speak with the same voice but the rest of the world can't put the voices together, in the same way they're blinded to Dick Grayson's face by Robin's scrap of a mask.  

 

It's too bad the Batman growl has become so ingratiated into fictional hero culture.   In addition to Dean, Green Arrow does it too now.    I can only hope it's not a thing when Wonder Woman finally gets her film.

[rue721]

I think the Batman Voice is also an attempt to speak from the diaphragm. It sounds stupid because nobody PROOOOOOJECTS like that in real life. I agree that it comes off as stage-y and fake. But maybe acting coaches still teach it?

[catrox14]

The Green Arrow and Batman do it to hide their true voices.  I dunno why Dean does it.LOL

[DittyDotDot]

My understanding is it was a purposeful choice on Jensen's part to try and mimic John's deep voice. But now that Jensen's real voice has deepened over the years it's just gotten to laugh-worthy and absolutely ridiculous levels, IMO. I especially had a hard time stifling the giggles when Demon Dean spoke earlier this season. I can only imagine how painful that must've been for Jensen.

Edited December 7, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I thought demon!Dean was less growly than regular!Dean from last season.

[DittyDotDot]

To me, it sounded like he went from 10 packs a day to 25. But since he's been cured it seems like he's cut back--or maybe he just stopped inhaling. ;)

[catrox14]

I know I joke about Dean's batman voice but in all seriousness I think Jensen is really generally smart about his choices including what he does with Dean's voice.

 

I thought demon!Dean's voice was deeper not more growly but also I thought demon!Dean just had no fucks to give so there was a flatness to his voice if that makes any sense.  To me demon!Dean wasn't angry. But he was sitting on top of this bloodlust that isn't really born of rage IMO. It just ...is.

 

Even when demon!Dean was stalking Sammy in the LoL I didn't think he was angry with Sam per se. To me it was more like,welp you fucked with me and my freedom and I'm going to end you now.  Not really anger but more like okay you poked the bear and the bear is now going to eat you. I thought Deans voice last season was filled with depression and lonliness which I think exacerbated the growly sound. 

 

I dunno it's hard to explain what I mean. LOL

[7kstar]

I think the Batman Voice is also an attempt to speak from the diaphragm. It sounds stupid because nobody PROOOOOOJECTS like that in real life. I agree that it comes off as stage-y and fake. But maybe acting coaches still teach it?

We teach projection for the stage, because in schools, they still don't use mics...stupid I know but the one act competitions don't allow mics.  But projection isn't about lowering your voice.  A good coach would always say don't do a voice that hurts your throat. 

 

My understanding is it was a purposeful choice on Jensen's part to try and mimic John's deep voice. But now that Jensen's real voice has deepened over the years it's just gotten to laugh-worthy and absolutely ridiculous levels, IMO. I especially had a hard time stifling the giggles when Demon Dean spoke earlier this season. I can only imagine how painful that must've been for Jensen.

Jensen has stated he started it because he thought about Dean trying to be John and plus he thought it was cool.  But some males have deep voices because that is there natural pitch.  If it is natural it doesn't sound painful.

 

Jensen has been better this season but I agree I don't want him to harm his voice, because he has a great singing voice and it could hurt it permanently.  I understand why he initially started it and shows how deep he thinks about his character choices but as his voice naturally deepen he could have talked closer to his natural voice.  Sometimes it does work, because I did believe the reason Demon Dean was hunting Sam was because he was stupid enough to poke the sleeping bear.   I can agree with @catrox14 on this one.

Edited December 7, 2014 by 7kstar

[millennium]

The Green Arrow and Batman do it to hide their true voices.

 

I know ... but it's silly.   And distracting.

Edited December 7, 2014 by millennium

[mizkat]

I agree about Cas and the angels. But they're not going anywhere--Misha, who I adore, provides great PR for the show. He's got an engaged fan base, which marketing departments love to see. The big problem the show has is that Cas isn't needed anymore. He doesn't have the power to help the Winchesters, and that was his main role. The only other time he worked as an interesting character was the short time he became their enemy--when he thought he was God after gorging on souls. Since then they've been trying to find a way to make Cas relevant and interesting, and it's all failed. It's hard to do when the character itself is very one dimensional. 

 

I liked the actress that played Hannah, but unless they were going to change Hannah and make her more interesting, then she had to go. She served her purpose. I appreciate that they hired someone who was good in the role. 

 

Back to unpopular opinions--I liked Roadkill, too. And I like Garth to a certain extent. When they tried to make him a Bobby replacement, that's when I started not liking him. And the werewolf story...ugh. don't get me started. 

[mertensia]

I always figured the hoarser voice is due to Zachariah's not bothering to heal his throat after Alistair.

[catrox14]

I always figured the hoarser voice is due to Zachariah's not bothering to heal his throat after Alistair.

 

I tjought it was Castiel that didn't heal him. I never understood why he didn't or couldn't . But either way new head!canon adopted. 

Edited December 7, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I fully get why most are disillusioned, but there's still just something about this show for me. Even when objectively I dislike whole episodes or even long stretches of certain seasons, I can't ever quit this show. And the episodes I love are episodes I love and rewatch A LOT...don't ask how often :) 

 

Don't I know it! I joke about Jared's hair and Dean's smoker voice, but neither of those things would ever drive me away from a show anyway. Every time I get frustrated with the lackadaisical plotting and poorly executed storylines, I go watch a few con videos which reminds me of how much the people who make the show care and the fun they're having too. Sometimes I also go watch a few eps from S1 and S2 to cleanse my pallet.  In general, my criticisms and mockery are out of love not hate.

[catrox14]

I'm not disllusioned.I'll be with this stupid show til the end of time.  I snark occasionally but I love this godsdamn show as much I ever loved Angel or BSG or LOST.  In some ways I might love it more but that is just because I am in awe of Jensen Ackles Ackting.  I'll be honest if it wasn't for him, I doubt I'd still be watching. But to be fair, I don't have 10 years of time invested either since I'm a binge watcher and catcher upper to current, which probably helps my lack of need to rage quit. 

 

If I could survive the advent of Demon!Dean considering how utterly apoplectic and inconsolable I was after that, I'll be here. Unless we find out that Dean or Sam have literally raped people or the angel war takes over again to the detriment of Dean and Sam, I'm in. I would be super sad if Cas left but I wouldn't quit the show because of it. 

Edited December 7, 2014 by catrox14

[SueB]

I'm reminded of a brilliant poster back on TWOP (whose name is escaping me right now). He talked about their relationship with their favorite show like that of a bad romance where you end up drunk and screaming on the front lawn and it shows up on an episode of Cops. I'm not doing the comment justice but I remember crying with laughter because it felt so true. I'm not at that stage with Supernatural but I've been there with other shows.

[Demented Daisy]

In the Spec thread, catrox mentioned a possible future storyline would probably never happen due to TPTB not wanting to deal with the fan fallout.  (I initially responded in the Spec thread, but then figured it was something that everyone should have a chance to respond to -- plus, it really belongs here, IMO.)

 

If this is the case, if TPTB mold their storylines around what they think fan reaction will be -- and actively trying to avoid certain fans from getting upset -- then I'm appalled at the cowardice.

 

This fandom has some extremist, fringe-type groups.  By refusing to do certain stories, TPTB are giving those fans way too much power.  From what I've read here, some of those people downright bully TPTB.  That is not behavior that should be encouraged.

 

JMO, but they should be concerned with creating the best possible stories they can, not stepping on the feelings of any faction of the fandom.  I have been very vocal here about hating the Demon Dean storyline, but I'm not going to get on Twitter and abuse TPTB for it.  And I wouldn't expect them to read what I've said here and change the show because of it.

 

Honestly, if they ignored that section of the fandom and told whatever story they wanted, what's the worst that could happen?  I don't believe for one second that the CW would cancel the show just because a small group of vocal fans were upset.

 

The crazies just don't deserve the attention, IMO.

[mizkat]

I don't believe for one second that the CW would cancel the show just because a small group of vocal fans were upset.

 

I don't either but I do believe if they had hard data to show that a fringe group of fans were making the network money through viewing, buying merchandise, attending cons, and patronizing sponsors, then they will court that fringe group until the very end. No one messes with the almighty dollar. So if a certain segment of fandom had any kind of monetary pull, I can see that affecting the stories. 

[catrox14]

I think Destiel is a specific problem for the show that because both sides of that equation are equally vocal IMO and at times really unpleasant. IMO, if they opt in on Destiel because they want the storyline to go there then IMO non-destiel crowd will shout that the writers caved and it's fan service. If they put Dean and Cas back together as partners and friends and they play it as they always have, then it will be charges of queerbaiting. They can't win either way :(.

I think that is why Fan Fiction specifically addressed Destiel and essentially said it's not canon but have fun in your own minds.

[DittyDotDot]

I also think that's exactly why Cass has been sent to storyline-Siberia lately. They just need to have the fortitude to ignore the bullying and tell their story. If someone wants to interpret it a certain way, let them. They need to adopt the FBI's standard of not negotiating with terrorists, but tweak it to address storyline bullies.