Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Aeryn13]

Actors working together in different movies is something else, that is not uncommon but the leads of a long-lived TV show will not be cast again in another TV project. Movie roles don`t build that same familiarity factor. As an inside joke maybe the old cast-mate will come in as a guest star but that`s about it. Even the chances for a movie together are iffy to me. I doubt after the X-Files` first run ended, anyone would have cast them opposite each other in either a movie or TV-show that wasn`t called X-Files.  

[Diane]

Jared was tapped out of Gilmore Girls straight up. There wasn't anyone at their auditions other than Jensen and Jared from every story I've heard and read.

 

Jensen came in to read for Sam but liked Dean more and Kripke and company realized they had the brothers at that point. 

 

Kismet and serendipity that it worked so well. 

If I remember right from both of them discussing this in a convention video, Jensen stated that they both read the Sam part at first, that was what they had written first.  But just recently I believe it may even be the Seattle con that when they came in for the joint read that they were the only ones there and how usual it was.  Jensen has stated before that they never intended on him being the Sam character.  I will try and find the video next week.  I am leaving work early today and have family obligations this weekend.

[AwesomO4000]

I count Gadreel because Sam`s body was supernaturally altered through possession. Just as I count Ghost Bobby as a supernatural storyline for Bobby. I do only count Season 8 for Dean for example because he was bodily in a supernatural realm for a bit. But reacting or being affected by the supernatural storyline of another character is exactly the thing I do not want. Dean has had that all the time and I don`t enjoy it. It does nothing but rub salt in the wound for me.

 

Which is why I`m still at 4 long Seasons of going without. I do watch supernatural shows for supernatural plots. Even if Dean wasn`t the Chosen One, he could have had those.

 

And for a majority of the seasons Dean has. Not as much as Sam, true. Though in a way, for me, Sam being possessed by Gadreel is pretty much "reacting or being affected by the supernatural storyline of another character" as I see it. It wasn't Sam who had any part in doing the saving when Gadreel took over. It wasn't Sam who killed Kevin. He could only "react" to it after the fact. And it wasn't Sam who had any part in the final fight - that was all Gadreel and his storyline of redemption. I am not of the opinion that Sam's body = Sam just as Castiel in Jimmy's body wasn't a supernatural arc for Jimmy. But that's maybe just my opinion.

 

Also, for me, Supernatural is also a show about hunting monsters and getting rid of the bad guys, and in my opinion, there were over 2/3 of the seasons where that didn't happen for Sam, and at least the last 3 seasons where Sam hasn't even participated in a win or a recurring character defeat in any way. In addition, Sam's general hunting output for 2 of those season was 1/3 of Dean's - who also had the supernatural status during that time. So just as you think that even though Sam is the "Chosen one" that Dean could also have some supernatural storylines, I think that when Sam isn't the supernatural focus, he could have some hunting impact - just as Dean did while Sam was doing his supernatural stuff - but Sam gets much less else positive to do when Dean has the "powers", unless you count screwing up and starting apocalypses... which I don't. Instead Dean got both stories - powers and being the proficient hunter while Sam was just in the background not even being supportive effectively (they couldn't even let Sam have that - he had to screw that up, too. Yes, that still bugs the crap out of me.)

 

If he could use those powers benevolently and (in time) have control over them, he could find more of a zeal in helping people again by having some effective, obvious wins. He could ultimately gain a new sense of self worth and learn that he matters as a person, not just as "Sam`s brother" or a tool. He could come to the conclusion that he is indeed more than just a "born killer" who will either die soon or grow old and bitter as a hunter, feeling less trapped than he appears to be now.

 

Maybe if this were a different kind of show, but SPN is a darker show than that in my opinion. When in the course of this show did Sam's powers ever give him exclusively warm, fluffy, confident feelings? I would venture never. They always came with a price, and any confidence was superficial at best and/or usually stomped down ruthlessly via a crushing defeat. Even Sam's visions only helped sometimes when it came to saving people. Often he was too late and had to live with the guilt of thinking maybe he could've gotten there faster or figured it out sooner. Even with powers, Sam's "effective, obvious wins" have been few and far between. His powers made him feel like a freak and tainted. It took him a long time to finally accept what he was, and part of that came from his delusional hope in season 8 that he was being "purified" of the stain of the demon blood that his powers came from.

 

And Dean has had "effective obvious wins" in my opinion (Azazel, Dick Roman, Eve). I'd venture to say that he's had more than Sam even without the obviously disastrous screw ups Sam has also had. Dean just sometimes turns those wins or any win that isn't exactly perfect into defeats in his mind - example: purgatory. Having powers isn't going to change that in my opinion.

 

And as much as I love Dean, if Dean got exclusively "good" powers which he could control with no bad effects, I would roll my eyes and think "of course he did," because of course Dean would get powers and have no ill effects and handle them just fine. Only screw up Sam would have powers and not be able to handle them and start apocalypses because of them. That would be the message I would get from that. And I'm kind of tired of the storylines of screw up Sam and big brother Dean who knows better and has to clean up Sam's messes that Carver has been giving us. I'm ready to move on from that.

 

He would not change being brave or caring or any of that because why would that change?

 

Because in this verse, power usually comes with a dark price? Because power corrupts? Because with power comes potentially even more responsibility and the potential guilt of "I could've/should've done more" until maybe you just say "screw it, I didn't ask for this?" Any of those things sounds plausible to me.

 

It`s like Captain America where they deliberately sought out someone who embodied the spiritual qualities they wanted in their future superdude and then imbued him with physical powers. They knew he would stay the same person at heart, just that he would now have powers to help others better. .

 

But Captain America is a comic book character. Supernatural is not like that, in my opinion, and I wouldn't want that for Dean. It seems less complex somehow. For me, in comparison to the rest of the Avengers, Captain America is a little boring. For me, The Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, Black Widow, even at times Hawkeye are more interesting, because they have more nuances and there is conflict that comes with their powers or experience, whether that is rage, arrogance, or darkness. For me, powers with a price is a much more meaty subject matter, but I get that miles vary.

[DittyDotDot]

If I remember right from both of them discussing this in a convention video, Jensen stated that they both read the Sam part at first, that was what they had written first.  But just recently I believe it may even be the Seattle con that when they came in for the joint read that they were the only ones there and how usual it was.  Jensen has stated before that they never intended on him being the Sam character.  I will try and find the video next week.  I am leaving work early today and have family obligations this weekend.

 

Yep, that's the story I remember too. They both read independently for Sam because that's who they were trying to cast first. It sounds like on the commentary I was listening to, Jensen read first. They really liked him and I got the gist they thought they had found their Sam. But, then Jared came in to read, they really liked him as well and then realized Jensen might be better suited as Dean anyway and had him come back in and read for Dean. It was then they took them to the network and they were the only guys in the room at that point. Which apparently is unusual because you usually take a couple options to the network.

 

Personally, I didn't get the impression that the network strong-armed them into choosing Jared or that this was a show designed to give Jared a starring role. I never watched more than a handful of Gilmore Girls episodes, but I was under the impression Jared was a secondary character on that show as well. He was barely in the few episodes I saw.

[Aeryn13]

 

Because in this verse, power usually comes with a dark price?

 

Like I said, I wouldn`t have had a problem with a dark arc but they have kept the character down for years now. I need the story to be on an upswing for a change. They could have done dark powers during the MOC arc. I was so excited when he could use telekinesis with the Blade in the Abaddon fight but that only happened once. Or twice, maybe with Metatron too. So with have two lousy times with obvious powers. And nothing really as a demon, a Knight of Hell especially. Boo. . 

 

 

Though in a way, for me, Sam being possessed by Gadreel is pretty much "reacting or being affected by the supernatural storyline of another character" as I see it.

 

If Dean was possessed for say an entire Season or half a Season or shall we say supernaturally submerged in some way so what the audience was seeing for the majority of the episodes wasn`t Dean but another entity, I still would count it as a supernatural arc for the character. Vesseling is good enough for me. I no longer hold out hope for Michael!Dean but if they had gotten Michael out of the cage and he would have possessed Dean in the mid-Season Opener till the Finale, I`d be freaking ecstatic. New material for Jensen to play and new material for me to watch.

 

In the end, it all really comes down to: what they write (I use that term loosely) currently for the character is very boring to me, I want something else.    

[FlickChick]

Yep, that's the story I remember too. They both read independently for Sam because that's who they were trying to cast first. It sounds like on the commentary I was listening to, Jensen read first. They really liked him and I got the gist they thought they had found their Sam. But, then Jared came in to read, they really liked him as well and then realized Jensen might be better suited as Dean anyway and had him come back in and read for Dean. It was then they took them to the network and they were the only guys in the room at that point. Which apparently is unusual because you usually take a couple options to the network.

 

Personally, I didn't get the impression that the network strong-armed them into choosing Jared or that this was a show designed to give Jared a starring role. I never watched more than a handful of Gilmore Girls episodes, but I was under the impression Jared was a secondary character on that show as well. He was barely in the few episodes I saw.

I read somewhere that it was Kripke's wife that liked Jared in Gilmore Girls and asked him to have Jared in for a reading before making a final decision on the character of Sam. Now who knows if this is true, but the way they "thought they had their Sam" but then Jared read for the part gives some credence to the story. I personally don't care how it came to pass that Jared got the role of Sam, but I'm fairly certain that Jensen read for it first. The info may even be on a S1 DVD extra. 

[catrox14]

Jensen said he was reading for Sam but also secretly prepared for Dean because he liked Dean because Dean was funny. 

 

They talked about that even as far back as the PaleyFest back in s2 ? I think. 

[Diane]

Yep, that's the story I remember too. They both read independently for Sam because that's who they were trying to cast first. It sounds like on the commentary I was listening to, Jensen read first. They really liked him and I got the gist they thought they had found their Sam. But, then Jared came in to read, they really liked him as well and then realized Jensen might be better suited as Dean anyway and had him come back in and read for Dean. It was then they took them to the network and they were the only guys in the room at that point. Which apparently is unusual because you usually take a couple options to the network.

 

Personally, I didn't get the impression that the network strong-armed them into choosing Jared or that this was a show designed to give Jared a starring role. I never watched more than a handful of Gilmore Girls episodes, but I was under the impression Jared was a secondary character on that show as well. He was barely in the few episodes I saw.

Thank you I thought I remembered it right, but I didn't have all the details. I will still try and find the video for anyone who wants to watch it.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

Like I said, I wouldn`t have had a problem with a dark arc but they have kept the character down for years now. I need the story to be on an upswing for a change. They could have done dark powers during the MOC arc. I was so excited when he could use telekinesis with the Blade in the Abaddon fight but that only happened once. Or twice, maybe with Metatron too. So with have two lousy times with obvious powers. And nothing really as a demon, a Knight of Hell especially. Boo. . 

 

 

If Dean was possessed for say an entire Season or half a Season or shall we say supernaturally submerged in some way so what the audience was seeing for the majority of the episodes wasn`t Dean but another entity, I still would count it as a supernatural arc for the character. Vesseling is good enough for me. I no longer hold out hope for Michael!Dean but if they had gotten Michael out of the cage and he would have possessed Dean in the mid-Season Opener till the Finale, I`d be freaking ecstatic. New material for Jensen to play and new material for me to watch.

 

In the end, it all really comes down to: what they write (I use that term loosely) currently for the character is very boring to me, I want something else.    

My UO is that I like Dean human. I wasn't a fan of the Demon storyline (although Jensen knocked it out of the park), I was glad that it ended and I enjoyed the MOC storyline much more. If you have powers being a hero isn't that difficult, but without powers, well then its Heroic! JMHO

[rue721]

The lost potential in the Demon!Dean storyline, for me, was that I was genuinely curious about the show's mythology about demons. Like how demons are made. Whether you can "unmake" one. Etc. But ultimately, the show didn't explore that very much. Which isn't shocking, because the show has never been that interested in getting into the nitty gritty of the show's mythology/universe -- but I still found it disappointing.

 

When they went so far as to literally make Dean a demon, I thought for sure that we would learn more about the process of turning a human soul demon (and back again)! But nope.

 

Anyway, though, I MUCH prefer when Dean is his normal human self, because I find him likeable like that. When he's affected by supernatural stuff, like by the taint of Hell or the Mark of Cain or whatever, he gets really macho/obnoxious/dry really fast, and I don't like him nearly as much.

 

This season is a little bit dull, but so much of it has been a pleasant to me because I'm finding Dean so LIKEABLE as just himself.

 

And on this show, supernatural = evil. Even the angels are murderous dicks. So I think that, in the world of this show, supernatural powers can only corrupt. I don't really want to see Dean take on supernatural powers in order to "do good," because he's done that before (taking the MoC to kill Abbadon) and he's seen Sam do it before, too, and he's been shown over and over that it never works out. Trying it was always naive, imo, but at this point it's a "fool me once..." kind of situation.

[BlueMeanie]

My impression was that the network never intended for Jensen to play Sam, they were just having everyone read for that part when Jensen came in.  I thought Jensen said that at some point, but I could be wrong.

[catrox14]

My impression was that the network never intended for Jensen to play Sam, they were just having everyone read for that part when Jensen came in.  I thought Jensen said that at some point, but I could be wrong.

I've never heard that. I've heard Kripke say they were torn because they had kind of tapped Jared for Sam but then Jensen was equally good, until they realized DUH.....

They had Sam and Dean.

I'll if I can find Kripke's comments

[Diane]

My impression was that the network never intended for Jensen to play Sam, they were just having everyone read for that part when Jensen came in.  I thought Jensen said that at some point, but I could be wrong.

You are correct. I promise to find the video next week, where Jensen and Jared discuss this.

[BlueMeanie]

Is this what you're talking about Catrox?

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by BlueMeanie

[catrox14]

From Variety's 200th episode "An Oral History of Supernatural" 

 

ETA: This is a GREAT read BTW

 

 

http://variety.com/2014/tv/spotlight/supernatural-oral-history-200-episodes-ackles-padalecki-kripke-1201352537/

 

 

Kripke: When we were casting, you see a lot of people. We hadn’t found our Sam and Dean. David Nutter suggested Jensen because we knew him from “Smallville.” We met with him to play Sam, and we fell in love with [him]. And then Jared came in, and he was a really great Sam too. Looking back, we were such idiots to not see it… We had two great Sams and no Dean and you think it would be obvious to put one into the other role, but it was not obvious. So we [went] to Peter Roth and we said, “We’re not sure what to do,” and Peter was like, “why don’t you make Jensen Dean?” We all looked at each other like, “we’re idiots, of course.” It’s so difficult to find one actor who is charismatic enough to be a breakout character and to support a show. So to find two of them, where there’s only two leads… I didn’t realize what a miracle it was at the time. It’s a miracle.

 

And Jensen confirms that by saying that he had really liked Dean more all along and had prepared for Dean...just in case.

 

Also, Peter Roth is the head of WB Television

Edited March 27, 2016 by catrox14

[BlueMeanie]

You are correct. I promise to find the video next week, where Jensen and Jared discuss this.

 

Please do. :-)

[catrox14]

Great stuff from the Paley Fest in 2006 that I and others have referenced. Here is the video. 

 

The video starts when Kripke is talking about the casting. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=R6YHq20XmNE#t=816

 

 

OMG they are CHILDREN here

Edited March 27, 2016 by catrox14

[Diane]

The one I am talking about is a recent convention video where they discuss that there was only the Sam part to read for. Jensen stated that he was not really auditioning for the Sam part but that was the only pages available or something like that. Will hunt for it on Monday.

[catrox14]

I know which convention video you are talking about. Jensen didn't say anything that contradicts what has been said about the casting process all along. Sam was cast first and both read for Sam first.  They were the only two brought into meet the network suits before they gave the go-ahead for the show. 

 

The WB had been eyeballing Sam because of Gilmore Girls and Kripke had been told Jensen would also be a good Sam because of David Nutter. 

 

The one I am talking about is a recent convention video where they discuss that there was only the Sam part to read for. Jensen stated that he was not really auditioning for the Sam part but that was the only pages available or something like that. Will hunt for it on Monday.

Edited March 27, 2016 by catrox14

[BlueMeanie]

The one I am talking about is a recent convention video where they discuss that there was only the Sam part to read for. Jensen stated that he was not really auditioning for the Sam part but that was the only pages available or something like that. Will hunt for it on Monday.

 

That sounds like the video I saw.

[catrox14]

Respectfully, I'm not really understanding the disagreement here.

 

Jensen has said in the past that he had kind of secretly in his head prepared for Dean because he liked Dean but he did not audition for Dean. He was there for Sam in the original audition. Later on Jensen and Jared read for Sam and Dean together AS Sam and Dean when they were in front of the network suits.  

Edited March 27, 2016 by catrox14

[BlueMeanie]

Respectfully, I'm not really understanding the disagreement here.

 

As I said earlier, I remember Jensen saying that the network never intended for him to play Sam.  Then you said that you had never heard that.  Diane is going to look for the video.

Edited March 27, 2016 by BlueMeanie

[DittyDotDot]

This story has been told soooo many times over the years. It changes a tad with each telling. 

[MysteryGuest]

Well, however it came to be, I think they made the right choices.  I personally think Jensen is the better actor of the two, and playing Dean allows him to run the gamut from high drama to almost slapstick comedy.  And he does both equally well.  I think Jared was perfect for young Sam because he did have that sort of innocence about him.  They totally lucked out with both actors.  Without the two of them, I don't believe the show would have been nearly as successful.  Their relationship is what sells it.

[FlickChick]

catrox, the 2006 Paley Fest video is where Kripke mentions his wife "being a Gilmore Girls fan and a fan of Jared's work" which is why I think it was her influence to audition Jared after they thought Jensen would be their Sam. JMO   Obviously it all turned out very well. 

 

MysteryGuest, I agree with everything you've said above. 

[catrox14]

catrox, the 2006 Paley Fest video is where Kripke mentions his wife "being a Gilmore Girls fan and a fan of Jared's work" which is why I think it was her influence to audition Jared after they thought Jensen would be their Sam. JMO   Obviously it all turned out very well. 

 

MysteryGuest, I agree with everything you've said above. 

 

Yes I know.  

 

I was just trying to give more information for anyone that was interested in the subject.

 

That was the earliest information I had about the casting process as discussed in depth from the showrunners and the cast themselves.

 

Was Kripke's wife, an influencer or a person of importance to the network that she would have some say on Jared being hired to play Sam? I'm legitimately asking. I thought she just liked Jared and suggested it to Kripke, not that she had any actual influence on the casting process. Not arguing, just asking!

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think she did have influence over the casting process, just gave Kripke the idea to look at Jared. After that, it would be up to TPTB and the network. But it does cast a different light on the idea that the network forced Jared on them and/or was trying to find a show to make a star out of Jared. Which I never had that impression anyway, so... .

 

Interesting side note: I also listened to the commentary for Phantom Traveler with Jared and Jensen. They were such dorks, even then. Anyway, Jared says he wasn't looking for his next job. He was happy with his life as it was, but read the script and decided the project sounded fun, so went in and met with Kripke and Co.  Then he met Jensen...and then they kinda went off on a tangent, being dorks and sarcastically talking about how much better Jared's life was for meeting Jensen.

[FlickChick]

Yes I know.  

 

I was just trying to give more information for anyone that was interested in the subject.

 

That was the earliest information I had about the casting process as discussed in depth from the showrunners and the cast themselves.

 

Was Kripke's wife, an influencer or a person of importance to the network that she would have some say on Jared being hired to play Sam? I'm legitimately asking. I thought she just liked Jared and suggested it to Kripke, not that she had any actual influence on the casting process. Not arguing, just asking!

I suspect simply an influencer.  Happy wife; happy life. :)  Also, when Kripke said that they flew Jensen up for a reading, Jared interrupts him and said that he had to fly himself up there. That gives the hint of a less "formal" audition perhaps to please his wife? Who knows? All interpretations would be just that; not fact. 

 

Edited March 28, 2016 by FlickChick

[Bessie]

Here's another super unpopular opinion. Ackles did not make me feel Dean's pain at losing Sam in Red meat. Previously, when Sam has died Ackles has made me cry with his portrayal of Dean's reaction. Not last night. It may be because Sam's died so many times already or that I knew he was coming back to life. Whatever it was, I was disappointed.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm uncomfortable with some of the objectifying that goes on, as well, but it goes further than that for me: I'm only interested in the actors with regards to the characters they play. I'm just not interested in their personal lives, myself. I already know more about these guys' personal lives than I do about my own family; which is way more than I care to know about anyone's daily life.

 

So, perhaps it's time to create various actor threads? All the various types of gushing and/or objectifying could go on there and those of us who aren't really interested in that type of discussion can steer clear of that. I can set them up if you guys want. Title suggestions would be appreciated though since I suck at that stuff.

 

Another tiny suggestion, that may or may not seem reasonable: the site does have spoiler tags. I might suggest using them when posting something that may contain a spoiler, but doesn't really fit in the spoiler thread itself. That way the ensuing discussion ends up in the appropriate thread and everyone is warned for spoilers.

[trxr4kids]

 

 

ETA: Just saw Trxr4kids latest post and agree with most, though I don't think a new thread for "just drooling" would offend anyone.  But I'm not a spoilerphobe, so I don't know if there would be a problem.  Maybe post spoilerish photos in spoilers, and then add droolerish posts separately with reference to the spoiler photos?  

I'm not a spoilerphobe either but trust me some people are, just by referencing a spoiler photo some people would say they were spoiled and be angry. IMO justifiably so if they weren't forewarned. That's why I honestly think the most reasonable solution would be to label such posts regardless of which thread they appear as follows:

drool alert

didn't Dean look hot doing whatever

[Guest]

This is a topic to discuss your bitterness about the SHOW not each other and not the forum.

 

If you see an issue use the Report Button or PM me and add SilverStormm to the conversation.

 

Thanks.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

Here's another super unpopular opinion. Ackles did not make me feel Dean's pain at losing Sam in Red meat. Previously, when Sam has died Ackles has made me cry with his portrayal of Dean's reaction. Not last night. It may be because Sam's died so many times already or that I knew he was coming back to life. Whatever it was, I was disappointed.

Watch the episode again if you can, you will see so much more the second time IMHO-Jensen is so subtle with his emotions sometimes that you have to really watch closely, watch his eyes and face-he looks totally broken to me. -My heart hurt for him in the episode

[catrox14]

From the media thread.

 

no good reason to get rid of demon dean 3 episodes into the arc. Most of the rationale I read is because Dean can't go that Dark. But he did anyway and demon!Dean was kind of fun and legit scary to me.

 

MoC!Dean:

Nearly beat Charlie to death

Went overboard in his killing the shifter

Slaughtered Randy and the Rapists

Told Sam he wished he was dead instead of Charlie

Slaughtered all the steins including shooting Cyrus in the head

Beat the shit out of Cas

Was going to kill Sam

And he did Kill Death

 

Frustrating how they just pissed that away. And yes I'm frustrated for Jensen who did such a fantastic job creating a new character. 

 

Bah

 

Just a little demon!Dean giffery for fun  You know what I love about this. It's Dean. He didn't completely change him which is what I find so damn compelling but he changed him enough to be not our normal Dean and he's not mimicking another actor's work (not that there is anything wrong with that!) Just saying he's remaking his original creation just like he did with Future!Dean...and I'm just in awe. 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I couldn't agree more, Catrox!  I don't believe they quit on the Demon Dean storyline because they didn't want to take him too dark.  They clearly had no issue with making Dean's character dark with the Mark of Cain.  I think, as usual, they started with a storyline, and then just abandoned it in mid-stream because they either thought of something else they wanted to do instead, or simply didn't know what else to do with him.  

 

There was so much more they could have done with that storyline, other than just bad karaoke.  Just exploring how it must have felt for someone as guilt-ridden as Dean, to suddenly be free from all of that.  While he would never have chosen to be a demon, there had to be a part of him that felt at least a bit of relief to be out from under the burden he puts on himself.  And the idea that Crowley was more than a little afraid of him could have been played out more, as well.  

[AwesomO4000]

no good reason to get rid of demon dean 3 episodes into the arc. Most of the rationale I read is because Dean can't go that Dark. But he did anyway and demon!Dean was kind of fun and legit scary to me.

 

MoC!Dean:

Nearly beat Charlie to death

Went overboard in his killing the shifter

Slaughtered Randy and the Rapists

Told Sam he wished he was dead instead of Charlie

Slaughtered all the steins including shooting Cyrus in the head

Beat the shit out of Cas

Was going to kill Sam

And he did Kill Death

This is true, but Dean felt badly about these things. He wasn't a remorseless killer like he would've had to have been if he had killed as a demon. And for me that is the difference. Because I think there might have been even more of an outcry if the writers had gone that way with Dean than what they already did with demon Dean.

 

But I understand you enjoying what Jensen did with the character. I felt the same way with Jared's portrayal of soulless Sam. I thought Jared did a great job of making soulless Sam different while still seeming like Sam. (My favorite episode for that was "The Man Who Knew Too Much," because I enjoyed seeing the two Sams play off each other.) However once we found out that Sam was soulless, he too, couldn't stick around very long, especially once there was the suspicion that he might not really want his soul back, because there wasn't really anywhere for him to go but full on psychopath. In my opinion, it would have been pretty much the same with demon Dean. There was only so long they could've gone before demon Dean would've had to go down the remorseless killer route or it would've seemed disingenuous, especially with the mark of Cain on his arm. He'd already killed douchey guy and had considered killing the wife.

[mertensia]

My problem with DemonDean is it's incredibly one-note. He sings offkey. He has sex. He kills. Boring. You can't get a lot of episodes out of that unless you get more creative than they are. Have him held captive by Crowley and used to kill problem demons with Sam and Cas trying frantically to find, rescue and save him? More interesting. Have him decide to go decimate Hell? Interesting.

Edited April 10, 2016 by mertensia

[Aeryn13]

Gadreel!Sam lasted half a Season and Soulless!Sam half a Season (and was supposed to be the entire Season initially) because those were Sam-stories and as such the writers are invested in them. If it had been Demon!Sam, they would have made it equally work for half a Season, with a display of real powers and everything. If need be, they had just not done a silly musical for the 200th episode but a Sam-centric mytharc one.

 

And if Sam had the bond with Amara this Season, it would have been the main storyline focus with much more detail and care going into it.

 

The writers made their thought process very clear when Carver said in setting up the trials storyline among the writers, Dean wasn`t even discussed. They only ever thought about Sam because in their minds there is no other main character. Other than San, these days they try to write storylines for Cas. Then maybe Crowley in third place.

 

Dean is the afterthought they have revolving around those, mainly Sam.

 

Kripke actually was the same way when it came to the mytharc, however he did allow Dean little consolation prizes in the standalones where he got to shine and be strong and caring. It`s very obvious Dabb felt that was much more than the character deserved. And everyone should worship Sam and if you don`t, what`s wrong with you?

 

And if Dean is given a little story, then this is a trial run to later do it bigger and better with Sam. Dean suffered a measly 40 years in Disneyland hell and broke? Brace yourselves for Sam suffering untold REAL horrors in the cage for a billion years. Dean was a year in Purgatory? Sam hop--skipped through it in a day and that was part of a meaningful mission. Dean`s part in the previous mytharc gets thrown to the side like trash, Sam`s Lucifer-connection comes back even in Season 11.

 

That`s why I`m still not quite discarding the possibility of Sam receiving the Mark of Cain, only this time he can use it for a super-heroic purpose and have ultra-special, never before seen powers and of course control it perfectly because he is just better in every way than sloppy, needy Dean. Maybe God comes in and tells him he is Jesus incarnated. Wouldn`t surprise me. With a sidenote to Dean a la "you are lucky to be crawling at his feet, you loser".

 

I thought Gamble hated Dean and Carver was indifferent to him (and annoyed when he had to acknowledge him) but IMO Dabb REALLY hates the character and has serious problems with the actor and would worship Sam/Jared for real if he could. Which is why Dabb taking over as quasi-showrunner  is basically apocalyptic news to me.

[shang yiet]

It's a Samcentric world! All the showrunners prefer Sam and look down on Dean. All the writers. All the bloggers. Even fellow actors prefer Sam (Richard Speight). Sorry, I just don;t believe this at all.

 

I think the writers showed way more care with demon!Dean. They didn't dare let him get his hands too dirty. They didn't want to darken him too much. He didn't strangle his brother, sleep with a demon, kill innocent women. He was only allowed to kill bad guys. They let him say something nasty to Sam but a lot of fans thought Sam was to be blamed for Charlie's death anyway. Luckily, Dean got out of the demon arc with his character intact. He wasn't accused of being arrogant and lusting for power like Sam. Such is the writers' regard for Dean.

 

I

[Aeryn13]

All the showrunners and current writers? Yes, I think so. Though I will say Kripke didn`t hate Dean and he really adored Jensen. All the bloggers? I don`t think so though the majority are BNF Sam!girls but it`s a smallish crowd anyways that blog about this show still. Most general bloggers IMO have seen a handful of episodes of the show, if that. On social media, it depends where you can. There are corners for everything. 

 

Fellow actors? A lot of them have been very complimentary towards Jensen. Richard Speight made real asshole comments about the episode he directed. Don`t quite know if he was aware he was putting himself down though in basically saying Jared finally, for the first time ever, had a good acting partner with the guy who played Sully and not the third-rate flare he usually plays against. That includes not only Jensen but Richard as well. He had scenes with Sam in the past.

 

As for showing more care, the writers put their emphasis on tell, not show. They can show Sam doing any kinds of shady shit and showing Dean not doing all that much bad stuff but if they tell enough that Sam is a saintly wonderful guy and Dean a piece of crap, that is what will stick. 

[mertensia]

The thing is is the writers seem to think of them as Main character Minor character. This works when you have one star of the show, and then supporting players; like The Equalizer where McCall is the main character but has Control and Mickey Kostmyer as helpers. Supernatural should have equal storytelling.

I do wonder if they reduce Dean to nothing these last few episodes if people will give up on the show.

[Demented Daisy]

It's a Samcentric world! All the showrunners prefer Sam and look down on Dean. All the writers. All the bloggers. Even fellow actors prefer Sam (Richard Speight). 

 

Fellow actors? A lot of them have been very complimentary towards Jensen. Richard Speight made real asshole comments about the episode he directed. Don`t quite know if he was aware he was putting himself down though in basically saying Jared finally, for the first time ever, had a good acting partner with the guy who played Sully and not the third-rate flare he usually plays against. That includes not only Jensen but Richard as well. He had scenes with Sam in the past.

 

 

What?  This is the first I've heard of this.  Does anyone have a link to these comments?

[MysteryGuest]

I know there have been times when I wanted Dean to get certain storylines.  The Trials is a good example.  I just would have preferred if the writers had gone that way, but that really is just my own selfish desire.  While I like Jared/Sam just fine, I am definitely more of a Jensen/Dean fan, so it's natural for me to want every major story arc to involve my favorite.  But realistically, that's not going to happen.  

 

While Sam is the "central" character, mainly because of how the story began with the whole demon blood thing, I think that Dean gets equal time.  He has the closest relationships with Cas and Crowley, he went to hell first, he went to Purgatory, he's done the vast majority of the time travel episodes, he had the Mark of Cain for over a full season, he's been an actual demon (albeit for too short a time), and now, as lame as it's been portrayed, he has the link to Amara.  And even when he's just the support system for whatever Sam is going through, he's given enough to do that his acting still shines through.  I can honestly say that if the show truly focused on Sam for the majority of the time, I probably wouldn't have watched as long as I have.  

[shang yiet]

Exactly. I don't see any evidence everyone involved in the show is in love with Sam or that Dean has been sidelined. He never was and he never will. There has been plenty of focus on Dean, plenty. I would even call the show Deancentric when it comes to the emotional stuff.

[Aeryn13]

Just as I don`t see any shred of evidence that Sam is or ever has been or ever will be sidelined. Ten combined main characters of other shows would dream of getting as much plot material as he has. 

 

I`m not content with scraps from the table, even if the writers probably think I should be because hey, it`s just the sidekick. As far as I`m concernedl, they suck.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

I think Sam was pretty much sidelined last season, honestly.  From the end of season 9 though all of 10, I think Dean had the focus with the Mark of Cain and turning into a demon.  Sam played the supporting role then.  As a Dean fan, I was perfectly happy with that, but I'm sure there were plenty of Sam fans who weren't.  

 

As much as I have bitched about this season, I think it's been fairly even.  Both characters have a storyline with Lucifer and Amara.  What I do like about this year is that the brothers are sharing more, being open with each other, and so far at least, are taking on both of their enemies together.  Whether it ends that way is yet to be seen, but I will remain optimistic until we see how this ends.  

[Aeryn13]

Yeah well a big problem for me - and I acknowledge that this can`t really be helped as it will always be in the show - is that I hate "the brothers" as a concept or a relationship or what have you. I hate what it turned the characters into, especially Dean.

 

Brotherly scenes are now the equivalent of Clana barn scenes for me. And that wasn`t at all the cases for me in earlier Seasons. So if they do their usual secret-keeping or not, I never find that relationship positive anymore. Not after what I was forced to watch of it in the last several years.  

 

@Demented Daisy,  I tried googling for the Speight interview but couldn`t readily find it, sorry.  

Edited April 10, 2016 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

If Sam and Dean were just normal brothers going through life, then I would absolutely be advising them to get help for their co-dependence, but their lives are anything but normal.  When I put it into the context of these two men truly having no one else in their lives that they can turn to to deal with the horrible evils they face, then it doesn't seem co-dependent at all.  And I can fully understand the need to try to save the other, regardless of the cost.  I can't imagine either one of them having to continue doing what they do without the other.  It almost makes me understand how Sam just walked away from it all in season 8.  I still think he should have tried to look for Dean, and that will always bother me, but I can fully understand why he couldn't continue to hunt.

[trxr4kids]

For me I equate DemonDean with the trials to close the gates of hell, ultimately pointless. The trials themselves were a joke to me, none of the tasks seemed like something that would be hard for Sam or Dean, for that matter. Had Sam actually succeeded I think closing those gates would have done exactly what closing heaven did, meaning it would have ejected the demons and probably also kept evil souls in the veil also. Metatron wrote those tablets after all. Thankfully for Sam he didn't finish and have to yet again redeem himself, it was Cas's turn. But let's just pretend for a second that Sam completed the trials and it only sealed in all demons and didn't prevent bad people from going there, demons have been a major part of the show since the beginning and are there go to bad guys, I assume because of budget and lack of creativity. So the last several seasons sans demons would have been about the incredibly boring angels as the villains, again due to budget and lack of creativity. Honestly I've been sick of the repetitive villains for years but I'd rather watch Crowley and a hamster than Hannah or any other members of the God Squad introduced after season 5. 

 

DemonDean to me was just more of Carver's who is the real monster bullshit. Just like he's enamored with making Crowley and Rowena and random monsters of the week sympathetic, he also made DemonDean arguably more sympathetic than BuckLemming do in every episode they write. You'll note that the really dark things Dean did, he did while human. I know he was influenced by the mark but it doesn't change the fact that he was darker as a human than a demon. So while I'm sorry Jensen didn't get to explore and expand DemonDean, I shudder to think of how it would have been written had it gone on longer.

[catrox14]

My problem with DemonDean is it's incredibly one-note. He sings offkey. He has sex. He kills. Boring. You can't get a lot of episodes out of that unless you get more creative than they are. Have him held captive by Crowley and used to kill problem demons with Sam and Cas trying frantically to find, rescue and save him? More interesting. Have him decide to go decimate Hell? Interesting.

IMO the sex, alcohol, and karoake in Black was just to show Dean being carefree, no responsibilities; the kid in the adult candy store. The reveal that Crowley was feeding him chum to sustain him because it was either Dean kills or he becomes more demonic. That was a FANTASTIC conundrum for Dean and really fucked up too. Like horribly fucked up. Then I saw a hint of Dean's truly dangerous side when Crowley ordered him to "Sit Down" and Dean just gave him this look of ..."Yeah, no."

Crowley was Dean's drug supplier but Dean was also showing that he wasn't going to be controlled by anyone. Of course, at the end, when Dean refused to help Sam, I was like " Okay. this is going somewhere"

But "Reichenbach" (which is one of my favorite episodes of s10 minus the angel BS) is where they showed the real potential for demon!Dean.

I thought when Crowley offered him the hit on Mindy, he would maybe just leave since he had been telling Ann Marie he wanted to go somewhere else.

When Dean showed up outside of Mindy's house...I really became afraid FOR Dean and OF Dean because that was straight up sinister. I thought "Nooo you take this back" (I didn't mean THE NEXT EPISODE YOU ASSHATS!)

The scene with Dean and Lester in the car, was terrifying whilst darkly comic. The only reason Dean killed Lester was because Lester insulted him by calling him a "freak" and tried to tell Dean what to do.

Dean's confrontation with Crowley and Crowley being legit afraid of Dean was amazing. It wasn't a power grab on Dean's part either. Dean was just like 'Yeah, no. Don't get in my face". Dean wasn't going to have Crowley tell him what to do. Dean could have had the minions on side quickly, but not because he wanted them, but because they would have allied with him

I really thought they were setting up Dean to disrupt the natural order of Hell and Earth as a completely chaotic force that was totally self-centered, volatile, unpredictable and literally couldn't care less what anyone wanted him to do. He didn't want power. He just wanted to be left alone to live his life as he chose. But if the situation presented itself to demon!Dean he might have started thinking about having more power in his life.

But what I finally figured out by the end of s10 was that demon!Dean was never actually about Dean at all.

Demon!Dean was a plot device for Sam's characterization and redemption.

That's not even bitterness. I think that was proven textually throughout the season. They spent most of Black showing us Sam looking for Dean and then half of the remaining two Demon!Dean episodes showing us the lengths Sam would go to save Dean.

Now whether that made Sam look like a hypocrite or not, doesn't change that it did affect Sam's arc and that is still being seen in s11. I also don't think they really intended for Sam to be a hypocrite but more that Sam was learning a lesson about himself.

IMO if demon!Dean was actually about Dean, they would have spent a considerable more amount of time exploring what that was like for Dean. We would have seen other characters talk about what it would mean for Dean to be a demon not just the facts of him being a demon and how to save him or maybe kill him.

If it was about Dean, they could have come back AFTER they cured him to have him actually talk about how he felt being a demon. Or find some way beyond one conversation with Cas when Dean says 'I can't be that thing again". That's not enough for this viewer.

The audience can make a lot of assumptions about Dean's headspace and even if the writers say Dean would never say those things, the people around him can talk about it. But it was only ever "What do we do to save him". More plot device than characterization IMO

 

Bah!

Edited April 10, 2016 by catrox14