Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Commando Cody]

I didn't really like The Mother very much as a bad guy. I thought the time they spent on her was enough. 

[Omegamom]

Cas as the bad guy was not out of the blue. There were a great many hints in the season, especially when he killed Rachel and when Atropos confronted him, and going after the weapons of Heaven, which was something Cas normally wouldn't do. I loved the scene where Crowley asked for "just five minutes", and completely suborned him in that small amount of time...like, holy cow, Mr. Master Manipulator!

[catrox14]

I agree that it wasn't completely out of the blue. I think it seemed to be because Dean wasn't getting it, until it was too late. And I think Dean would have caught on to Cas' shenanigans earlier if he hadn't been so flummoxed by Soulless Sam. Or at least he wouldn't have been so angry with Cas for not being there to help him with Sam. 

[amensisterfriend]

What's weird is that even though S4 ranks really low on my personal list of favorites (and I'm pretty sure the fact that I now rank it below both S6 and S7 is very unpopular!), I can totally see arguing that it's objectively among the series' very best...I just happen not to enjoy it :) It's too high on brotherly angst and low on brotherly bonding, it marks the beginning of the annoying nonstop drinking, guilt and phony growly Batman voice from Dean and Sam being all petulant pride with virtually no positive qualities remaining at all, and I just almost always prefer smaller scale, more intimate storytelling over the impossibly lofty angels/demons/apocalypse stuff. I miss when Dean and Sam were relatable parts of this (admittedly weird!) universe rather than being the focal point of it like they started to be in S4, with everyone and everything 'choosing' them above all others for both angelic and demonic purposes and the fate of the entire freaking universe always resting on their increasingly overburdened shoulders. S1-S3, angsty as they often were, are positively sunsine-y cheer compared to S4 for me!

 

I also hold the UO that S5 is just as tiresomely depressing as S4, only with fewer individual standout episodes, more awkward humor and an even worse apocalypse arc. I know that many LOVE S5 and I've really, really tried to appreciate it, but for some reason it just doesn't do it for me. 

 

I'm totally with those who hold the UOs of liking Bela and Anna. I think I prefer S4 Ruby to S3 Ruby, though I'm really not a fan of either :) I also agree with not caring an iota about the generic Jessica or Lisa, both of whom are cut from that same exact typical SPN female mode.

 

I just rewatched Hollywood Babylon for the first time in awhile and really liking it a lot (which I know is not a UO, but I had overdosed on S2 to the point where I was sick of it, so it's nice to recall why I first fell in love with that season!) Anyway, my UO triggered by that episode is that I love when we see Dean super psyched about food. Most fans seem to see that as the writers making Dean a goofy joke, but I always equated his passion for food as symbolic of his passion for life---he used to take such infectiously enthusiastic joy in life's small pleasures no matter how bad the 'bigger' stuff was going at the time, and for me that was always among his most admirable qualities. Plus, I'm all for some good-natured humor other than the purely meta, self-indulgent 'we see you watching us!' episodes they trot out; this show is bleak enough, so if they want to try to make us smile by showing weight-of-the-world-carrying Dean geeking out about snacks, I'm all for it! At least he, unlike his brother, gets to have a sense of humor (though he had more of one back when the show itself was so self-serious and depressing), even if it's not one that will always work for us! 

[Aeryn13]

 

Cas as the bad guy was not out of the blue.

 

The slow reveal would have been fine if they had focused on that story. But doing so many Big Bad red herrings over the Season made it feel incohesive to me as a storyline. 

 

And I don`t even have a problem with a show doing many vilians. In its better days Vampire Diaries was so fast-paced, it did lots of mini arcs where it burned through character and plot almost too fast. But somehow it still flowed together. Season 6 of SPN didn`t give me this feeling at all. The Alphas leading into the Mother of All storyline could have flowed because technically it followed a common plot thread.

 

Meanwhile you also heard about the war in heaven between Raphael and Cas. But it got the least amount of onscreen time of all the arcs. Red herrings can be effective but here they filled the majority of the Season and only in the final three did they go "oh, this was actually our main story this year, see it concluded now".  

 

In theory, all these stories had potential but I don`t think that was realized for any of them. Season 6.B just flows better for me in general because I outright hated anything to do with Soulless!Sam and at least he was fucking gone.    

[Demented Daisy]

I just rewatched Hollywood Babylon for the first time in awhile and really liking it a lot (which I know is not a UO, but I had overdosed on S2 to the point where I was sick of it, so it's nice to recall why I first fell in love with that season!) Anyway, my UO triggered by that episode is that I love when we see Dean super psyched about food. Most fans seem to see that as the writers making Dean a goofy joke, but I always equated his passion for food as symbolic of his passion for life---he used to take such infectiously enthusiastic joy in life's small pleasures no matter how bad the 'bigger' stuff was going at the time, and for me that was always among his most admirable qualities. Plus, I'm all for some good-natured humor other than the purely meta, self-indulgent 'we see you watching us!' episodes they trot out; this show is bleak enough, so if they want to try to make us smile by showing weight-of-the-world-carrying Dean geeking out about snacks, I'm all for it! At least he, unlike his brother, gets to have a sense of humor (though he had more of one back when the show itself was so self-serious and depressing), even if it's not one that will always work for us! 

 

In addition to being one of my favorite episodes, the mini cheesesteak sandwich is one of my top 3 Dean moments for the very reasons you described -- unadulterated joy.  (My other two are his huff/sigh just before "We are so screwed" and the look he gives Mary when she's cutting his sandwich in Dark Side of the Moon.)

[mertensia]

Usually it's liking season 7 that's the unpopular opinion... it just happens that on this particular board, I'm in pretty good company on that one with some new "converts" (those who enjoyed it more on rewatch.)

Except for Defending Your Life season 7 is one of my favorite seasons. I liked the Leviathans ("there are only 7 billion humans ") and Dick Roman. The Mentalists was a fun episode.

I would like to see the Alpha Vampire again.

[Omegamom]

We might see him, mertensia! They're saying we would see faces from the past, and that The Darkness affects everyone--humans, demons, angels...I'd expect it to cause problems for monsters, too. Upsetting the Natural Order, y'know. The Alpha vamp would be unsettled by something disrupting the Natural Order.

[amensisterfriend]

season 7 is one of my favorite seasons

 

Same here! It's easily my favorite post-S3 season...since a few of us seem to share that UO, maybe it's as U an O as I used to think :)

 

In addition to being one of my favorite episodes, the mini cheesesteak sandwich is one of my top 3 Dean moments for the very reasons you described -- unadulterated joy.

 

Exactly! I love those moments and love (and admire) that facet of Dean's character...and if there's any show that needs to remember to include glimpses of hope, joy and humor amidst the relentless bleakness, it's this one :) 

Edited September 4, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

In addition to being one of my favorite episodes, the mini cheesesteak sandwich is one of my top 3 Dean moments for the very reasons you described -- unadulterated joy.  (My other two are his huff/sigh just before "We are so screwed" and the look he gives Mary when she's cutting his sandwich in Dark Side of the Moon.)

Dean "Is that for me"

Sam "its just a burger"

Dean"Its a treasure"

 

One of my favorite scenes

[Aeryn13]

I think the joy for food in and of itself would be fine but I hate scenes that go totally overboard with it, like he is chewing half a cow at once with bits falling out of his mouth. That`s just disgusting, ewww. When real scenes become a worse carricature than the carricature moments in Tall Tales, I do think it`s just making the character into a goofy punchline. Same with the luddite crap recently. There is being less up and up on the latest social media and there is basically not knowing what the internet is. 

 

What`s up with extreme character flanderization anyway? Do writers assume audience get dumber with the years so they wouldn`t understand humour unless it farted in their faces? Or that they get Alzheimers and forget established character traits? Or do they truly think that there is no such thing as "too much" aka if viewers like a particular trope, they just MUST love it to see that played up to ridiculous degrees?   

[DittyDotDot]

Hey, count me in as someone who liked S7. And, I wouldn't say I hate S4, just don't like it as much as others, as a whole. Some damn good episodes in S4, though.

 

 

What`s up with extreme character flanderization anyway? Do writers assume audience get dumber with the years so they wouldn`t understand humour unless it farted in their faces? Or that they get Alzheimers and forget established character traits? Or do they truly think that there is no such thing as "too much" aka if viewers like a particular trope, they just MUST love it to see that played up to ridiculous degrees?   

 

No, this show doesn't understand "too much". Nope, not at all. 

Edited September 4, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[amensisterfriend]

Since we can safely confess UOs here, I have to mention that I really like the unpopular Road Kill a lot. I love the way it's shot and the overall atmosphere. (S2 was really good with the camerawork/filming and overall atmosphere, right?! I feel like those are very underrated aspects of what made SPN really good when it was at its best!)  Anyway, I'm admittedly partial to ghost stories---as opposed to vampires and zombies and especially generic demon/angel wars, for instance--so that may be part of why I'm predisposed to love this episode. I just find it incredibly effective for some reason! 

No, this show doesn't understand "too much". Nope, not at all.

 

LOl! Particularly when it comes to grasping too much angst, too much brotherly conflict, too much wrist-slitting bleakness and joylessness on an "entertaining" show, too much of the "one brother is keeping a secret from the other that the audience already knows about and is just impatiently waiting to see told---THAT should work out very well!" device, etc. :) 

Edited September 4, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Aeryn13]

Was Road Kill the one with Tricia Helfer? I thought she gave a very good performance and the idea of a ghost stuck in a loop was interesting but overall I didn`t like the execution of the episode too much.

 

Though ghost stories in general are something I find fascinating as well.

 

Despite hating Missouri with the burning of a thousand suns - I guess this is an UO too but I just hate that trope of "sassy black woman" and I think the actress performed it just in an annoying one-note shtick - I thought the twist in "Home" with the "fire ghost" turning out to be Mary was pretty well done. 

[Diane]

.

Edited September 4, 2015 by Diane

[catrox14]

from the Spoilers thread.
 

r as DemonDean so nastily put it-for using Dean as a reason to not man-up concerning Sam's own faults and flaws and mistakes.

 

 

I feel like Sam not saying anything to Cas or to Dean about everything Demon!Dean said was kind of hogwash. I came away feeling like that was Sam being set up to "Saint!Sam" for s10.  And yes I loved that Sam was trying to save Dean but the lack of anger or resentment at ALL during the whole season was odd.  Like sure I get Sam knew Dean wasn't Dean but every time Sam has said shitty things to and about Dean when he wasn't in his right mind, that shit stung Dean and he carried it even when his logical mind understood it wasn't really Sam.(i.e. Asylum or s4 and s4)and  I appreciated that kind of writing. That felt real to me. Because even when we say things or hear things from someone we love and who loves us, even when not right in the mind at the time, it hurts, it scars and it takes time to forgive.  Same for Sam in s9 (until the Purge speech that is cause that was all kinds of sideways).  

 

I guess I just don't like how anvilicious and broad it's become. I  don't need parallels/mirroring  with supporting characters to tell the Sam and Dean drama (I'm not including Cas and Crowley because they do matter). I mean like Ed and Harry or the werewolf sisters...or Garth. Blah. I just need the nuance that we had in s1 through 5 again. 

 

Anyway that sort of rambled. But basically, I'm bitter because so much missed opportunity because of the too soon demise of demon!Dean, part 52301150. 

[AwesomO4000]

I feel like Sam not saying anything to Cas or to Dean about everything Demon!Dean said was kind of hogwash. I came away feeling like that was Sam being set up to "Saint!Sam" for s10.  And yes I loved that Sam was trying to save Dean but the lack of anger or resentment at ALL during the whole season was odd.  Like sure I get Sam knew Dean wasn't Dean but every time Sam has said shitty things to and about Dean when he wasn't in his right mind, that shit stung Dean and he carried it even when his logical mind understood it wasn't really Sam.(i.e. Asylum or s4 and s4)and  I appreciated that kind of writing. That felt real to me. Because even when we say things or hear things from someone we love and who loves us, even when not right in the mind at the time, it hurts, it scars and it takes time to forgive.  Same for Sam in s9 (until the Purge speech that is cause that was all kinds of sideways). 

 

Since this is the bitterness thread, I normally wouldn't disagree - since we're all entitled to our bitterness opinions - but I'm going to disagree a bit here, mostly, because it's partly my bitterness that I was glad that Sam didn't bring it up. Well, that's not the bitterness part - the bitterness part was for me that I finally felt that we were back to Sam again when he didn't bring it up. I didn't find it setting up "Saint Sam," mostly because Sam used to be like that all the time... until all the crap in season 8 and 9. Season 9 Sam in my unpopular opinion was not acting in character... all of that anger and not forgiving stuff seemed off to me.

 

For most people, yes, being hurt and angry at what demon Dean said would be "real," but looking back at Sam in previous years, Sam was almost always forgiving in this way... perhaps too forgiving. It was one of the few positive traits Sam was given and allowed to keep - well until season 8 that is, but I'll forgo going down that bitterness path. Some examples: Sam spent all of maybe one day or two angry at Dean having made the deal, and then the next few weeks or so being guilted into stuff and thinking Dean deserved time off from research, time to have twin fantasies, etc. Me, I would've been so damn pissed for likely longer than Sam despite any of Dean's "don't be mad at me," puppy eyes. Screw that: you did what? And then how many times was it brought up later with all the guilt trips Sam got for going with Ruby and starting the apocalypse, and even Dean's accusations about Sam's heaven memories? Well they also found out that they'd been in heaven before, meaning Sam basically found out that Dean had likely dragged him out of heaven by making that deal. But not a peep from Sam about that when Dean complained about Sam's heaven memories and threw the amulet away - which likely hurt Sam a ton. No "yeah, well maybe I could've been in heaven and skipped Ruby and all of that crap of knowing you were in hell because of me if you hadn't made that stupid deal in the first place." Would it have been crappy? Yup. Understandable? Also yes, in my opinion.

 

Sam and Castiel. Castiel used Sam as canon fodder: plain and simple. And in doing so, he broke Sam's wall which lead to Sam either dying in a catatonic state while knowing he was leaving Dean behind in potential danger, or he could take on 180 or so years of hell memories. Did Sam hold resentment against Castiel? Nope. He sucked it up, forgave Castiel and was the one to pray to him at the start of season 7, saying he believed that Castiel was still one of them. Which is one of the reasons I didn't hold it against Sam in the season 8 final when he complained about Dean potentially trusting an "angel" over him (Sam) - because yeah, Sam also made some mistakes, but that one right there, Cas using Sam as cannon fodder: just as questionable trust-wise in my opinion, and if Dean trusts Cas over Sam after stuff like that, especially with Castiel acting all off like he was in season 8, then I don't blame Sam for being angry about it - good on him. About damn time, in my opinion.

 

There were some minor examples too: like Gabriel / the Trickster. Apparently Bella. And Meg. Really the only one Sam seems to almost instinctively not forgive or even consider forgiving is Crowley. Something about Crowley makes him the huge exception for Sam, and Sam hated Crowley almost on sight.

 

But in general, I found Sam being such a jerk about what Dean said under the influence of the coin in season 8 (and his resentment in general) and being so angry at Dean in season 9 to be more of the anomaly, whereas I didn't think twice about him not complaining about what demon Dean said. In my opinion, Sam was guilty about all of the things he'd done himself, probably felt like he deserved some of it, and was just really happy to have Dean back. The thinking he deserved it part might even be some of the reasoning behind his trying so hard with trying to find a cure for the mark... because he did take what demon Dean said to heart and finally wanted to be the one who helped Dean rather than be the one who screws up all the time. Sadly, the narrative just can't let Sam do that it seems. But that's my own bitterness thing, so...

Edited September 14, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

My bitterness issue isn't with Sams ability to forgive. It's the manner in which it's Handled or rather not handled. demon! Dean could have been a conduit to some real examination of what Sam and Dean really view about each other and their lives. The purge speech was overly harsh and didn't do Sam any favors but that was before demon Dean spat out some possible latent resentments between both of them.

I would gladly watch an entire episode of the guys really getting into how they each see themselves to each other. Not through avatars.And with demon!Dean we had that chance and at least we still do because Dean remembers what he said.

[AwesomO4000]

I do agree with you there, catrox14. It would be nice if Sam and Dean got to talk to each other and clear the air - straight - and not through lame avatars or via objects that affect them, other supernatural influence, or altered states. That would be a nice change of pace. I'd even take them beating the crap out of each other to do it as long as they let it all out afterwards and then got over it.

[Mick Lady]

Despite hating Missouri with the burning of a thousand suns - I guess this is an UO too but I just hate that trope of "sassy black woman" and I think the actress performed it just in an annoying one-note shtick - I thought the twist in "Home" with the "fire ghost" turning out to be Mary was pretty well done.

 

 

I loved Missouri Aeryn13! But I think primarily because I adore the actress.

 

We're all like different characters and seasons, which is why I like it here . Especially since I love Garth so much! He's great in ZNation!

[catrox14]

I really didn't like Missouri. I thought she was nothing but a bitch to Dean for no reason under the guise of being psychic. At first it was amusing but then it just became cruel. I hated that she didn't tell the boys that John was there.

 

I like the actress though and have enjoyed her in other things, but I disliked Missouri greatly.

[Aeryn13]

For me, Misery was completely done when she gave a snooty "amateur" to Dean using his EMF-meter trying to get a read on the ghost. What is he supposed to do when he is not a psychic, you snooty, full-of-yourself bitch? And her skills as a psychic sucked balls. Dean uses his "just" human bravery and ingenuity and tools to help people, she uses her powers to lie to her clients and take money for it.

 

And it`s really classy to refer to someone as stupid in the company of third parties. "Oh, he is not the smartest tool in the shed, haha" to that woman owning the old Winchester house. What kind of an unprofessional asshole behaviour is that? They were there on a job basically.    

 

Then there is also a cultural disconnect because where I come from people taking that attitude with adults even if they are considerably younger is a complete no-go. Not if they didn`t know them from toddlerhood on. This entire calling parents or other older adults "Sir" or "Ma`am" is so alien here, we don`t even have comparable words for it. The closest German word for it and you`d be kinda saying "Master" or "Mistress" or something. Yikes. Likewise, calling younger adults "boy" or "girl" in a certain condescending manner, is just not done. Just the same, basically diapering someone like she did with Sam also wouldn`t happen. Noone would behave like Missouri did here because no adult, even 30 years her senior would let that fly. She`d be put in her place swiftly.  

 

I realize this is very different from the cultural background Kripke brought to the show but it made the episode all the harder for me to watch because Dean just took that fucked-up shit and he is generally about a billion times less meek than I am. So this kinda makes my head explode.   

 

Maybe with another performance, less abrasive and smug, I could have stomached it better but this writing and acting together? Disaster in my eyes.

 

I have seen the actress in other roles that were a similar trope and occassionally the writing was a tad better and perhaps the director went for a more sympathetic performance. 

 

Of course it also cemented this idea of Dean as the comic relief sidekick because that is the kind of character type that is usually done with. The "hero" for the writers doesn`t get such treatment in narratives. 

[catrox14]

I've read commentary in various outlets and forum's that Missouri's cruelty to Dean was because "She saw right through Dean's crap. She's just being a Mom to him". I've even read and heard commentary that Dean DESERVED her crap. And I just am like "what in the hell are you even talking about here". Now if she had shown Dean any compassion at all, which I don't think she did, I would have viewed it more in the "Tough love notMom" thing but that's not what happened.

 

I didn't understand what they were trying to make me think or feel about Dean here. ESPECIALLY confusing with the juxtaposition of his desperate phone call to John because he was so terrified of everything happening.

 

So much dislike here.

Edited September 16, 2015 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

Now if she had shown Dean any compassion at all, which I don't think she did, I would have viewed it more in the "Tough love notMom" thing but that's not what happened.

 

Yeah, I read lots of "she was doing it to distract him" a lot and well, none of that was in the performance IMO. To me, she quickly made up her mind that she couldn`t stand him and simply enjoyed bullying him. It was fun to her and if that made things worse for him, she either didn`t care or enjoyed that too. She played the lines very straight.

 

I thought Bobby in the infamous "boohoo" scene was a huge asshole. If someone gave me shit like that, they`d be out of my life because that just crossed several of my personal lines with no return ticket. So, the lines itself were assholish for me. And while Jim Beaver played it as, I imagine, Kripke intended because he wanted viewers to root for Bobby in that scene (meaning, I think Kripke is the asshole really), he did manage to at least convey a little bit that Bobby, deep down, meaned well.

 

At times as the show went on, he too went too much carricature IMO. The repeating "balls" and "idjits" were written as a stale stereotype and delived in the same way. Though in his defense, I`m not sure what an actor could do to change that. They were after all supposed to be signature lines for the character. I just don`t care for having a character reduced to a doll with a string who can repeat the same two phrases.       

 

Oh, and going back to Missouri, there is also the everpresent "Dean responds well to that attitude". Yeah, that`s why he is such a healthy, balanced person, because he "responds well" to crap. Meanwhile Sam "responds well/needs" ego-flattering and buttering up. No shit, nearly everyone responds well to that. It feels good to have your ego stroked. That`s just common logic. Hardly anyone ever needs it, though.      

[trxr4kids]

 

 

I didn't understand what they were trying to make me think or feel about Dean here. ESPECIALLY confusing with the juxtaposition of his desperate phone call to John because he was so terrified of everything happening.

 

So much dislike here.

 That is exactly my problem with Missourri. Dean is revisiting the most traumatic event of his life, worried about his father, worried for his brother (the visions) and yet here she is telling him he's stupid and was goofy looking, ha ha. I found it jarring and insulting to the character. I honestly don't know what they were going for, maybe to soften the drama a bit but it was a huge fail for me.

[catrox14]

 That is exactly my problem with Missourri. Dean is revisiting the most traumatic event of his life, worried about his father, worried for his brother (the visions) and yet here she is telling him he's stupid and was goofy looking, ha ha. I found it jarring and insulting to the character. I honestly don't know what they were going for, maybe to soften the drama a bit but it was a huge fail for me.

 

 

I've actually seen and read people applauding her saying those things to Dean. Like wait, even if you think Dean is the biggest dick that ever dicked, please recognize the trauma that he is having to relive now. After having vowed to NEVER return he's forced into it because of Sam's visions and what they were doing to Sam. 

 

But ultimately, that episode was never about Dean at all. It was about Sam seeing his Mom for the first time since he was a baby and her apologizing to him and the reveal that John was alive and well, and avoiding his desperately seeking son, Dean.

[Commando Cody]

I didn't have a problem with Missouri. It was that horny bitch Pamela I couldn't stand.  There was some misplaced anger on her part.  Everyone told her stop, but she obviously thought she knew best.  So it was Castiel's fault when her eyes got burned out.  

 

This is one of the things that sticks out most for me about this show.  All of the misplaced guilt and anger.  Something bad happens to a character, it is either Sam or Dean's fault. Even when the character makes poor choices and it's their own fault.  It turns out never to be the dead/injured character's fault. 

[Aeryn13]

I really liked Pamela. And I didn`t think either the character herself nor the narrative actually blamed the brothers for what happened to her. I believe it`s natural that they would feel bad about it, though. This is just human nature. They came to her house for help, she was good-natured about it, pushed it too much and got burned, literally.

Guilt like that is often irrational. But I didn`t see too much guilt, more that they simply felt compassion towards her in the aftermath.

 

Figures, though that a character I liked got her eyes burned out and later be killed whereas Misery technically still lives on in offscreenville. I would have cheered if Castiel had burned out HER eyes. And tongue. Ears. You name it.  

[Commando Cody]

Pamela hated the angels because of it.  Especially Cas. He told her not to look, Bobby told her to stop, but it was still Cas's fault because she looked anyway. 

[Aeryn13]

I didn`t have a problem with her hating the angels or Cas especially. For me it would be very unbelievable for a character in her situation not to. I didn`t get that the narrative blamed Cas. Yes, she was a good bit reckless but so are the brothers usually. And I think she just pushed on because she was genuinely trying to help them find answers. 

[Omegamom]

Well, she was a bit of a hot-shot about it. Which is excusable, because up until that time no-one (in written history, aside from the Bible) had ever seen an angel. She depended on her experience, thought Cas was just a bigger, better demon, maybe.

I liked Pamela. And I liked that there were at least two characters (Missouri and Pamela) in the show that were psychics, pretty much well-adjusted, that John, Bobby, and, I'd guess, other Hunters trusted and didn't immediately think of as monsters. My ad line: "Psychics are people, too!" ;-)

As for Bobby's, "Oh, boo hoo!" line...he used it on himself all the time. I actually grew up with a lot of stiff-upper-lip New England-y types who saw being sorry for yourself (even when it could be justified) as self-absorbed and immature. Life sucks, you suffer, everyone suffers, you're no big whoop, quitcherbitchin'. Being halfway snooty, though, they didn't go the boo-hoo route; they went for a quiet, understated eyebrow tilt, a "Tcha!" or two, and you knew that you'd pushed the Limits Of Decent Civilized Human Beings. It was, in fact, a catch-phrase of my mom's when I was tantrumming: "Go to your room until you're prepared to act like a civilized human being!"

I turned out okay, I think, but then I never had to carry my baby brother out of a burning building at age 4 and have my mom die that same night and my life upended...

[mertensia]

My problem with Missouri is: canonically they met. And we know he was traumatized. And what does she do? Laugh about how funny-looking a kid he was. Um no.

Edited September 17, 2015 by mertensia

[SueB]

Missouri - I think it was a poor attempt at levity at the cost of both Dean and Missouri.  And the actress went for her usual schtick.  It didn't fit the situation (Dean's personal trauma of returning to the home he remembers his mom burning in).  So, someone who provides Dean tough love would be fine but she showed no affection.  She was a one-off character, however, so I'm pretty "meh" about it.

 

Pamela - I liked her. Yeah, she was cocky about her abilities and literally got burned for it.  I can get her hating Angels, it doesn't have to make sense. I don't expect her to be too rational about the situation.

 

Bobby - I love Bobby. I think his version of "tough love" was obvious love.  Warts and pimples included. 

[shang yiet]

I will always like Missouri because she was sweet and understanding about Sam's trauma. Yes, she was abrasive towards Dean but I saw it as a misguided attempt to play off the sassy black woman trope. I don't think the writers meant her to be cruel to Dean.

 

Something bad happens to a character, it is either Sam or Dean's fault. Even when the character makes poor choices and it's their own fault.  It turns out never to be the dead/injured character's fault.

 

I can't understand why there are fans blaming Sam for Charlie's death or the death of that hunter (can't remember name) in that Benny vampire episode. These are two adults perfectly capable of deciding what to do without Sam monitoring their behavior.

Edited September 17, 2015 by shang yiet

[Omegamom]

I blame the showrunners for Charlie's death, pure and simple. I will be forever bitter about that hot steaming pile of garbage writing.

In that episode, you can blame:

Sam (for dragging Charlie in in the first place)

Dean and Sam (for OMG confining the Styne dude with ONE MANACLE OMG OMG OMG THE STUPID IT BURNS)

Cas (for hauling Rowena off to the quiet room instead putting Charlie there, which would have made more sense)

Charlie (for haring off by herself like the heroine of a gothic novel) (for not slipping out the bathroom window)

Rowena (for being a catty bitch and driving Charlie temporarily insane)

And, of course, the Stynes themselves (for being shitty people all around) (and for, y'know, doing the actual killing)

What a clusterfuck.

Gah.

[7kstar]

I will always like Missouri because she was sweet and understanding about Sam's trauma. Yes, she was abrasive towards Dean but I saw it as a misguided attempt to play off the sassy black woman trope. I don't think the writers meant her to be cruel to Dean.

 

I can't understand why there are fans blaming Sam for Charlie's death or the death of that hunter (can't remember name) in that Benny vampire episode. These are two adults perfectly capable of deciding what to do without Sam monitoring their behavior.

I liked the actress in another show.  She worked really well and was abrasive and full of vinegar but also allowed to grow and be motherly.  Missouri was just badly written. How she treated Dean, unforgivable and badly written.  She did come off as just plain mean.  I just rewrite it in my head that she meant to distract him as she could feel how upset he felt and it came off wrong.  I have to work hard for that, and I shouldn't have to.  So not the biggest fan of Missouri. 

 

I do like that they didn't make her physic abilities a joke.  Her being too Sweet to Sam makes me not like Sam.  Like Sam can't see how much his brother is hurting.  Really, he's that blind?

 

Sam gets blamed for Benny's death because he brought in the hunter.  So yes he does own a bit of that.  But Martin owns the rest.  He was warned to stop, he didn't.  So the big blame goes to Martin.

 

Charlie gets the big blame for being stupid enough to leave the safety net of Cas and not able to escape fast enough.  Sam does get her involved, but Charlie could have walked away too.

 

But the biggest blame goes to bad writing.  So let's have a story were we get to string up the writers and have Sam and Dean talk about the merits of saving their asses...Or NOT!  :)

[Mick Lady]

I actually grew up with a lot of stiff-upper-lip New England-y types who saw being sorry for yourself (even when it could be justified) as self-absorbed and immature. Life sucks, you suffer, everyone suffers, you're no big whoop, quitcherbitchin'.

 

 

Omegamom, I grew up in such a family! And to be frank, it has served me well. I remember my sister and I were talking once, and at some point we looked at each other in horror and said: "Shit, are we feeling sorry for ourselves?" I actually loved that I grew up with such strength. I think Missouri (and Bobby) were trying the same with Dean. But to be honest, I never dissected this show until I came here, so I'm still learning. 

 

I can't comment on Charlie. I liked her, an UO I know, and I'm still pissed. But everybody can come back on Supernatural, right? I loved Pamela, but mainly because she reminds me of my best friend. Same attitude.

 

I do know I'm sick of the whole "guilt" bit. Sam has carried it since episode one, and I'm beginning to believe Dean was born with it. If you take it back far enough, you could blame anything on anybody. It's getting old, as is this shitty writing.

 

But yet, here I am, excited as hell for watching season 11 with all of you. Go figure.

 

Quick aside. Superwiki has completely grabbed me! I don't know if I love or hate you guys for steering me there.

[mertensia]

Yes Missouri was nice to Sam which is fine; lord knows both the boys need it. But she was nice to Sam alone. She was all Miss Sympathy and Understanding then figuratively kicked Dean in the ribs. Zero balance. Shes probably lucky DemonDean didn't go on a "I'm going to kill you because" rampage.

[SueB]

Actually, if love to see them run into Missouri again. How would she react now? Shit has gotten real over the last decade. I wonder what she would pick up from them. Perhaps she would run screaming or perhaps she would see the scar tissue and sacrifice.

[mertensia]

Yeah I would love to see that. Frankly I think Dean would scare her. He's hit the trifecta, been a Knight of Hell demon and apparently was in a fivesome with the King of Hell. I think she would feel sorry for Sam.

[SueB]

Yeah I would love to see that. Frankly I think Dean would scare her. He's hit the trifecta, been a Knight of Hell demon and apparently was in a fivesome with the King of Hell. I think she would feel sorry for Sam.

I still want to see that Flickr album.

[mertensia]

I wonder if Dean's told anyone about the apparent fivesome. Sam might keel over in horror.

[DittyDotDot]

Quick aside. Superwiki has completely grabbed me! I don't know if I love or hate you guys for steering me there.

 

Mwahahahahahah!!!

 

Yeah, beware of superwiki.com, it's got a gravity of it's own!

[AwesomO4000]

Mwahahahahahah!!!

 

Yeah, beware of superwiki.com, it's got a gravity of it's own!

 

Yes, almost as bad as the TV tropes site. I try to resist, but every once in a while I slip and go over there - usually that's a 2-3 hour black hole at least... more if I go to the discussion section where I sometimes find myself suggesting Supernatural examples to suggested new tropes.

[Demented Daisy]

I am so sick and tired of reading about how terrible it is that Dean has spent time in "Support Sammy mode".  Oh, how awful.  What a horrible way to live your life.  To be stuck in a position where your only meaning in life is to take care of another person.  How soul-crushing it must be to do nothing; to be nothing.

 

I know it's hard to believe, but there are people in this world who love to take care of their loved ones.  That it gives their life meaning and purpose.  That they don't need to be the hero.  Or even the lead in the play that is their life.  

 

It's not a shameful or disgraceful or disappointing way to live a life.  I can think of a whole lot of things that are much, much worse.  But mileage varies, of course.

 

/End rant.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[7kstar]

Actually in Plays the more interesting characters are not the leads but the Character Actors.  The ones you go who played that...I've seen them somewhere.

 

I don't mind the Han Solo sidekick feel of season 1. I felt he had an important role and it got bigger as they saw what Jensen could do with his acting skills.

 

I can see the idea of caring for someone is a part of who Dean is.  He does get joy from helping others.  I just personally want a balance.  He can serve Sammy his hamburgers but I also want smart and badass Dean.  I want to see him laugh and get excited about something small.  Loving life.  I want him to have something unique that he contributes to the storyline. 

 

I want to be excited to see both boys on screen and rooting for them to win.  I want to see hope exists.  I have enough darkness in my own life...so I don't need a depressing story to follow.  It can have depressing moments but I need to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[catrox14]

Dean has spent his whole life taking care of Sam. He became his mother, his father and his brother. 

 

He was so attached and unable to let Sam die that he sold his soul leading to jump starting the apocalypse and he let an angel possess Sam.  How is that something that is good for the character of Dean?  If that is what the show thinks supporting Sam is then I'd rather they not do that. 

 

I can't begin to tell you how many viewer comments here and elsewhere that were about viewers HATING Dean and still HATE Dean for doing that. That equated him with being a rapist or an accomplice to rape for violating Sam's agency. All because he couldn't let Sam die because he was so attached and was so under mission "Save/Support/Kill Sammy" . Obviously, there is no show if Sam dies, but Dean gets shit on left and right for his love and attachment to Sam.  He's either a bully, a rapist, or neurotically co-dependent.  He's mean to Sam because he can't let him go. He's mean to Sam because he lied to him. BUT if he detaches from Sam and goes and does something on his own then it's why aren't the brothers together! He really can't win either way.

 

Like what is the fucking point of Dean's arc with taking on the MoC to make up for his fuck up with not letting Sam die in 9.1 and being turned into a demon if it wasn't supposed to help him grow as a character so that he can find healthy ways to detach from Sam.  And vice versa for Sam. 

 

For me, putting Dean back to primarily be supporting Sam is not good for Dean. It means he didn't learn a fucking thing. So giving Dean something of his own away from or along side of  Sam would make it meaningful.  Otherwise is the show trying to tell me that Dean should have let the angel possess Sam even though it cost Kevin his life because YAY HE LOVES his brother SO MUCH? And that he was willing to kill Death to save Sam? 

 

I don't see how any of those things are good for Dean either.

 

 

Give me a Dean and Sam who are both being badass, smart and doing things together and separately.

Edited September 20, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

I can't begin to tell you how many viewer comments here and elsewhere that were about viewers HATING Dean and still HATE Dean for doing that. That equated him with being a rapist or an accomplice to rape for violating Sam's agency. 

 

Memo to me: never find those sites.  Seriously. I really dislike extremism in the fandom.  I went thru fandom wank over Smallville.  Never Again.  Never.  Just nope.

 

*pets PTV forum while muttering "good forum, good forum"* 

[AwesomO4000]

I can't begin to tell you how many viewer comments here and elsewhere that were about viewers HATING Dean and still HATE Dean for doing that. That equated him with being a rapist or an accomplice to rape for violating Sam's agency. All because he couldn't let Sam die because he was so attached and was so under mission "Save/Support/Kill Sammy" . Obviously, there is no show if Sam dies, but Dean gets shit on left and right for his love and attachment to Sam.  He's either a bully, a rapist, or neurotically co-dependent.  He's mean to Sam because he can't let him go. He's mean to Sam because he lied to him. BUT if he detaches from Sam and goes and does something on his own then it's why aren't the brothers together! He really can't win either way.

 

I agree with SueB in that I wouldn't want to find those sites. Usually the ones I've seen that show any hate, show it towards Sam, and often any comments that try to defend Sam get nasty comments. (Heck, I got booted/banned from a very popular site for daring to defend Sam, after seeing post after post berating him. And I wasn't even nasty to any specific posters. The Sam beraters didn't get banned, and continued posting the same stuff over and over even when it wasn't relevant. I stopped even reading that site for a long while.)

 

Warning: The following is going to be a long rant. I apologize, but I think that this is necessary for me to explain my line of thinking here. I will sum up at the end for those who would prefer to skip the details. I give you my full support to do so. If so please skip to the "Too Long, Didn't Read" Summary below. Also all that follows catrox14's quote is my opinion only.

 

 

Like what is the fucking point of Dean's arc with taking on the MoC to make up for his fuck up with not letting Sam die in 9.1 and being turned into a demon if it wasn't supposed to help him grow as a character so that he can find healthy ways to detach from Sam.  And vice versa for Sam.

For me, putting Dean back to primarily be supporting Sam is not good for Dean. It means he didn't learn a fucking thing. So giving Dean something of his own away from or along side of  Sam would make it meaningful.  Otherwise is the show trying to tell me that Dean should have let the angel possess Sam even though it cost Kevin his life because YAY HE LOVES his brother SO MUCH? And that he was willing to kill Death to save Sam?

 

In Carver's world - yes, the answer is yay! and Dean didn't "fuck up" by not letting Sam die in 9.1. And here's my reasoning why. Looking at the results of what happened, it looks to me like Carver is rewarding Dean for sacrificing all for Sam. As an example, I'll summarize what happened in season 9 (and some of 10) after Dean let's Gadreel possess Sam, both good and bad...

 

Bad:

• Kevin gets killed.
• Dean becomes a demon for a short while (and arguably has a vacation and kills a few demons and one dude bound for hell anyway that he potentially saved by doing so. That part is debatable. The worst consequences of Dean becoming a demon seemed to be Dean beating up annoying dudes, annoying bar patrons with bad karaoke, and being an ass to strippers and sometimes bed-buddies.)
• There's probably something else somewhere, but it's not coming to mind.

Good:

• Gadreel saves Sam more than once.
• Gadreel saves Charlie.
• Gadreel saves Castiel.
• Dean gets depressed and takes on the mark of Cain - which should be bad, but leads to killing Abaddon which is a very good thing, because we had an episode detailing Abaddon's very evil plans.
• Gadreel learns the error of his ways and helps Sam and Dean find Metatron and gets Castiel in the door to where the angel tablet is
• Gadreel sacrifices himself - proving Gadreel was good -  to free Castiel, allowing Castiel to defeat Metatron

 

If Gadreel being a part of saving the world wasn't evidence enough... Sam says "I lied" negating all that he had said before about not doing the same thing and re-enforcing that Dean's course of action was the right and understandable one all along, and Sam was just being an insensitive, ignorant, jerk who just didn't understand until put in the same position* and was then shown the error of his ways.

 

And in my opinion, in Carver's version of Supernatural, this means Dean is the narrative hero. He is the one to sacrifice all for family, and then in season 10 both family and the world, since he steadfastly had vowed to live with the mark and then when he was concerned that that wouldn't work, decided to get himself banished - until Death got stupid and put a contingency that was both ill-advised and made no sense on it. Um Death... you're Death! Send Dean into outerspace and then after Dean is out of the way go kill Sam yourself. You killed some dude for bumping into you and being rude. You killed a whole pizza parlor full of people just because. I think any protestations of only killing people whose time is up is a moot point at this point. And not only that, but Sam's time was up, more than once. You said so yourself that he was disrupting the natural order, so why did you insist on having Dean kill Sam instead when you had plenty of reason to do it yourself? You rivaled Sam for stupidity on that one, dude. So Dean's perfectly good plan was ruined by both Sam and Death. Oh, and Castiel, too. Poor Dean. Incompetence everywhere. If only everyone would just do what he says, everything would go just fine. And this might sound ridiculous, except that the narrative - in my opinion - entirely backs this position up.

 

* (Which really? As if Sam didn't already know this. He went through "Mystery Spot" where he was willing to potentially kill someone to get Dean back, "Time After Time...," and what was the end of season 8 where Sam gave up on closing the gates to stay with Dean all about? He had to learn this all over again?)

 

 

In my opinion, Sam's arc is much more confusing than Dean's arc in Carver-verse. Let's take a look at what happened with Sam since Carver took over...

 

Sam doesn't look for Dean, abandons hunting and abandons Kevin to Crowley. The "party line" is a halfhearted "Sam was being mature by letting Dean go." The story, however (imo) shows the opposite. It shows Sam being reckless, making bad decisions, being angry, being shaky at hunting, failing at his attempt at a "normal life" (well duh! Sam had already learned this how many times before this? So stupid to retread the territory again.), and immature in his actions. ("It's either me or Benny, Dean!" Bitch bitch bitch. Tantrum tantrum tantrum. "Mature" my ass.)

 

It could be argued that Sam had reason to be concerned about Dean's friendship with Benny, but the narrative made it a point to have Sam's actions be over-the-top in their response - slanting them as unreasonable - and re-enforcing this through showing Dean's POV and how he was struggling with Sam's unreasonable treatment. And then to further prove Sam was being unreasonable, Benny was not only good, he sacrificed for Dean and to save Sam... so Dean was right and was the better brother for giving up Benny twice for demanding, unreasonable Sam in order to keep the family together.

 

And Sam, seeing that Benny was good and seeing the error of his ways, decided that he should sacrifice himself to close the gates and do some good to atone, but that's not the right thing to do, Sam. You're supposed to sacrifice for your family - like Dean did by giving up Benny and you didn't do at the beginning of the season by selfishly trying for a normal life... which Dean re-enforces for you through his undying love and willingness to put you before everyone and let the gates stay open and all of those "sons of bitches" he's spent all of his life fighting stay on earth just in order to save you. And again seeing the error of his ways, Sam sacrifices completing his mission - for Dean, for family. Way to go Sam! Except.... Castiel starts an apocalypse anyway and Sam is going to die anyway... wait what? Does that mean that Sam shouldn't have sacrificed for Dean like Dean did for him and instead should've closed the gates? I guess we'll find that out in season 9 when it's Dean's turn to make a "stupid" decision to sacrifice for family and something really awful will happen because of it...

 

So okay, Dean does make a "stupid" decision to sacrifice for family and helps Gadreel take over Sam, and Sam is properly outraged, because obviously as he learned at the end of season 8, choosing the world should've come first, and also it's wrong to defy someone's will like that, right? So Sam asserts this throughout season 9 and that he would never sacrifice the world or Dean's will that way. Then Dean makes another potentially "stupid" decision in taking on the mark. So we're finally going to get some consequences of this and get an answer on how Carver views this kind of thing, right? A few rash decisions were made by Dean, potentially sacrificing something good for the world for Sam, ignoring free will, and taking on the mark, so okay, here come the consequences... And Kevin is killed... except Abaddon is defeated and Gadreel helps to save the world, and both apocalypses from season 8 are thwarted (ironically both via "stupid" decisions by Dean): yay! And Sam learns the error of his ways, because Dean was shown to be right... saving Sam at the expense of closing the gates, subverting Sam's wishes, and even rashly taking on the mark of Cain were all the right thing to do,** and Sam admits he lied and would've sacrificed Dean's free will to save him were the situations reversed. Wait what?  So... okay I'm not even going to try to figure out the message on that one. At least there were some bad consequences, right, because Dean turned into a demon! Surely this must lead to very bad things...

 

And so in season 10, Dean is a demon for a few months and ... not much happens (as outlined above.) But Dean still has the effects of the mark of Cain, and as Sam learned in season 9 when Dean helped Gadreel use him as a meatsuit, sometimes you have to ignore your brother's wishes to save him and to make sure bad doesn't happen to the world, because Dean succumbing to the mark could potentially be dangerous. So, Sam has finally learned, and this time he's going to sacrifice everything to save his brother, like he should've done before in season 8, and how Dean did for him in season 9. Besides Dean made a rash decision to take on the mark and that lead to defeating Abaddon, so now it's his turn to make a rash decision in order to help Dean, right? So Sam does - he ignores Dean's wishes and makes rash decisions, and the mark of Cain is removed: yay! .... except Charlie is killed, Castiel is cursed, Crowley goes psycho, Metatron escapes with the demon tablet, Rowena escapes with the Book of the Damned and the means to translate it. Oh geesh, could it get any worse? Actually yes! He also started the apocalypse! Wait what?

 

So what is Sam's arc here? What is he exactly supposed to have learned from all of this? ... I'm really asking, because I don't have a clue. The only common factor that I can gather from Sam's convoluted arcs summarized above is that what Sam is supposed to have learned is "Do whatever it is Dean says is the right thing to do, even if it contradicts something from before, because in the balance of things, Dean's way is always right, and your way is always wrong." And I'm pretty sure that isn't the arc I want for Sam either, because what a sucky arc.

 

** We even had a special episode - Mother's Little Helper - where Sam learns firsthand Abaddon's very evil plans to drive home to him how important killing her was, and where Sam admits that Dean was right to focus on killing her.

 

"Too Long, Didn't Read." Summary:

 

In the Carver era - Dean sacrificing for Sam narratively is generally shown to be the good and noble thing - the right thing to do. But Dean is also shown to sacrifice himself for the world. Both are shown to be noble and heroic and lead to good things happening. All of Dean's major decisions turn out to be the right thing to do.

 

Examples: Dean sacrificing Benny for Sam, Dean sacrificing something good for the world (closing the gates to hell) to save Sam, Dean subverting Sam's will, and Dean making rash decisions that may hurt himself or even others (the mark of Cain) all lead to either very little consequence or mainly good consequences, including averting two huge threats (Abaddon and her very evil, soul destructing plans and Metatron's apocalypse).

 

Sam, on the other hand, just can't seem to get anything right, ever. The moral of his story seems to be - do what Dean says, even if it contradicts something Dean's done or said before, because otherwise you'll screw up. P.S. - I hate this moral of Sam's story. But generally no matter what lesson Sam learns, when he tries to implement what he's learned, it still turns out wrong.

 

Examples: Season 8: Sam doesn't break the "rules" by not looking for his brother and trying to save him - totally bad things happen. Then at the last minute he breaks the rules and sacrifices for Dean instead of the world - more bad things happen. Season 9: Sam sees Dean sacrifice and make hard decisions by breaking the rules by subverting Sam's wishes and making risky decisions, thereby saving Sam, Castiel, and Charlie, and saving the world from two huge threats. Season 10 - Changing his ways, Sam sacrifices his morals and his health and makes risky decisions to save Dean, including breaking the rules by ignoring Dean's wishes - even worse things happen and he starts an apocalypse.

 

Seriously, I have no idea what it is Sam is supposed to learn from this.

[Aeryn13]

Well, don`t go to tumblr then where Dean being abusive and horrible started shortly after his birth. At least as soon as the first kids flashback we saw, how his 9yr old self was a manipulating meanie. And I`m not even kidding here.

 

In terms of narrative importance, personally, I sometimes like the lead best and sometimes supporting characters but if it`s the latter, they are usually the ones who have something that makes them stand on their own. And simply revolving around another character is for me the single worst thing you can do to a character. Even when side characters are animals, they usually don`t go that far with them. Like, the sidekick would be a beloved loyal dog but the dog would still be portrayed as somewhat of an individiual. If you do it with people, of course I expect a lot more than for a dog. 

 

Mostly I always resented the Han Solo comparism because while he was extremely popular and a cool character, you could take him out since the story was always at its core about the Skywalker family. Since my fave was Luke, that never bothered me for a second. Chosen One stories are unbearable if you don`t like or are not interested in the Chosen One.