Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Wayward Son]

Since we are discussing the Purge my unpopular opinion is that I completely agreed with Sam in S9 and understood why he said what he did in the purge. 

[AwesomO4000]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And I think I hate it more because it actually had some interesting Dean growth in the episode but it's completely lost in the grossness of the whole thing.

That's the conflicting thing about that episode. It had that nice moment, but also all of that offensive stuff @SueB mentioned. Oh, and also, "the you gonna share" thing pushed my dirty mind buttons, too... before the dog insinuation got thrown in there. So yeah, bad and offensive, but didn't push my Haaaaate! buttons like the episodes I mentioned did. "Torn and Frayed" had to be the worst of the bunch, too, because along with all of the torture porn and the gratuitous - and senseless - killing off of a harmless, likeable character, we pretty much got no upside that I can remember.

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I also liked Citizen Fang since I love Dean and Benny.

But this is part of why I hate it. Not that I liked Benny all that much - I thought they made Benny a little to cuddly, myself - but the "idea" of Benny and Dean I kind of liked. But this episode was only there to show us what could've been and then throw a bunch of manufactured angst and "plot twists" at that potential to ruin it. And in addition make Sam look like a jerk and an idiot in order to do that.

I describe it as like this thing that Hubby and I have which is more of a joke for us now, but still illustrates how this episode made me feel when I watched it.

So hubby and I were on one of our road trips through somewhere with someplace to go and as we were traveling through this quaint, small town we passed by this amazing looking antique store. I hadn't even seen it as I was digging out some yarn from my knitting bag. Hubby slowed down a bit and said "Oh, look at that cool antique store (which also coincidentally had a "Big Sale" sign on it)... too bad we don't have time to stop and look at it," before he sped back up and we went on our way. I, of course, gave hubby an epic bitch face that would've made Sam proud, because really hubby? You just had to make sure that I saw the really cool antique store that we were absolutely not going to be stopping at anyway when I could've instead been blissfully oblivious to what I couldn't have? Of course we laugh about it now - especially if similar situations come up - but back then not so amusing.

And "Citizen Fang" was a big, fat that to me. "See all of these cool characters - like Elizabeth - and situations - like Benny making it on his own and being happy and potentially a friend to Dean? - well forget all of that. You can't have any of that, and you know why.... because it's Sam's fault!" Well screw you show. Haaaate!

[Katy M]

Is it an unpopular opinion that I don't like Benny?  I always felt like he was just a plot device to come between Sam and Dean.  It irritated me that he didn't turn out to be evil.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Is it an unpopular opinion that I don't like Benny?  I always felt like he was just a plot device to come between Sam and Dean.  It irritated me that he didn't turn out to be evil.

People seem to have mixed feelings about Benny. I can take or leave him myself. He along with Ruby were plot devices in my eyes to get between the brothers and fans have mixed feelings about her as well. He may have been a considered a good guy for helping Dean in Purgatory but his actions could have been seen as self serving to ride the human out into the real world which makes him more gray in my opinion.

[Katy M]

I think the thing that really, really, really bugged me about the whole Benny situation was Dean saying that Benny was the one person who had never let him down.  Really?  You've known him a year and a half.  Sam didn't really let you down at all seasons 1 through 3 that I could see.  and he was probably pretty good ages 8-12.  It just seems unfair to compare someone you've known for a relatively short time to someone who you've known all your life. Especially when he's not perfect himself.  I actually can't really see how Bobby ever let him down either, or Jodie, probably others. 

Ruby was less annoying to me as someone coming between the brothers because she did turn out to be evil.  I was one of the idiots who thought she was a good demon, up until On the Head of a pin.  So, maybe that's why I couldn't trust Benny, a once bitten, twice shy thing.  But, anyway, Ruby being evil, made Sam making a mistake by trusting a supernatural being who kept saving his life and not letting him down and Dean being right that she was evil, so it made sense. 

Benny just made Sam look like a jerk even though it was possible he could have been right about him.

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Is it an unpopular opinion that I don't like Benny?  I always felt like he was just a plot device to come between Sam and Dean.  It irritated me that he didn't turn out to be evil.

I felt the exact same way about Benny until his final appearance where I learnt to tolerate him a little better! I think my main issue is that the bonding between him and Dean occurred off screen, which meant this new character was suddenly "like a brother to him". I also didn't understand how he'd earned Deans trust. Most of the things we'd seen in the past such as him helping Dean escape purgatory also served to help Benny. So overall the bond between him and Dean felt contrived and unbelievable to me. 

I also would have preferred he had been evil to balance things out. Sam goes off with a supernatural creature against Dean's will and they turn out evil. Castiel hooks up with Crowley against the brothers will and the brothers  are proven right. Dean hooks up with a supernatural creature against Sams will and Dean was in the right. It's a bitterness of mine that the show has a tendency to make Dean the "right" one during disputes and rarely offers Sams perspective. Seasons 8 and 9 being the worst for that.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

It's a bitterness of mine that the show has a tendency to make Dean the "right" one during disputes and rarely offers Sams perspective. Seasons 8 and 9 being the worst for that.

I feel that way also, but I'm not all that bitter about it, because I love Dean.  But, it seems like he always gets off easy.  Sam drinks demon blood and he ends up drinking a nurse and starting the apocalypse.  DEan takes the mark of Cain and turns into a demon and all he does is make some girl feel bad, sing bad karaoke, and kill some guy who wanted to kill his wife.

Dean sacrifices himself and goes to hell and he tortures a few souls who would have been tortured anyway.  Sam sacrifices himself and goes to hell, loses his soul and does all kind of bad crap.

And, on a different note, Dean goes to Hell and comes back the first time and yells at Sam when he thinks he sold his soul for him and told him that he was supposed to let it go.  But, when Sam does exactly that between 7 and 8 Dean reams him for that, for like two whole seasons.  I feel like the poor guy can't catch a break.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think the thing that really, really, really bugged me about the whole Benny situation was Dean saying that Benny was the one person who had never let him down.  Really?  You've known him a year and a half.  Sam didn't really let you down at all seasons 1 through 3 that I could see.  and he was probably pretty good ages 8-12.  It just seems unfair to compare someone you've known for a relatively short time to someone who you've known all your life. Especially when he's not perfect himself.  I actually can't really see how Bobby ever let him down either, or Jodie, probably others. 

The writing in season 8 for both Sam and Dean was awful. Dean deciding a vampire was a better brother and Sam shacking up with a completely unlikable woman and washing his hands of hunting was completely out of character for both of them. Dean has never had a high opinion of himself but always puts Sam above himself. For him to say something so intentionally hurtful was not a Dean Winchester thing to do.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

DEan takes the mark of Cain and turns into a demon and all he does is make some girl feel bad, sing bad karaoke, and kill some guy who wanted to kill his wife.

Don't forget while bearing the MOC he also beat the crap out of Cas, caused Rudy to die via vampire and told Sam that he should be dead instead of Charlie. In regards to the demon blood Sam may have started the apocalypse but Dean broke the 1st seal. Sam was Lucifer's vessel but he also jumped into the cage to prevent the apocalypse from occurring which was definitely heroic. I don't think that Dean gets a pass for all he has done but for the most part Sam is shown in a better light.

[Demented Daisy]

19 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

 

37 minutes ago, Katy M said:

DEan takes the mark of Cain and turns into a demon and all he does is make some girl feel bad, sing bad karaoke, and kill some guy who wanted to kill his wife.

Don't forget while bearing the MOC he also beat the crap out of Cas, caused Rudy to die via vampire and told Sam that he should be dead instead of Charlie.

 

And he killed a kid.  Not everyone sees it that way, but I do.  (I'm quite vocal, for want of a better word, about it in the episode thread.)

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Don't forget while bearing the MOC he also beat the crap out of Cas, caused Rudy to die via vampire and told Sam that he should be dead instead of Charlie. In regards to the demon blood Sam may have started the apocalypse but Dean broke the 1st seal. Sam was Lucifer's vessel but he also jumped into the cage to prevent the apocalypse from occurring which was definitely heroic. I don't think that Dean gets a pass for all he has done but for the most part Sam is shown in a better light.

Dean might be right a lot of the time but I find Sam is the one that gets validated.  Despite the fact that Sam more than earned Dean's lack of trust in s4, Sam did it because Dean was bossy.  Dean was never allowed a counter argument to point out all the times he gave Ruby a chance.  He's not allowed to bring up that he backed Sam's plan to get the angels and demons together.  Ruby was a part of that.  Dean thanked Ruby twice, and even told Sam to keep his secrets just stop lying.  Instead Dean was just made to apologize.

When Dean saves Sam in s9 the entire season is framed by telling us how wrong Dean was, even with Sam calling him selfish.  But when Sam does the exact sae thing in s10 with the book of the damned, its framed as brotherly love.  Sam even admits that his reasons are entirely selfish.  he doesn't want to be alone either. 

When we got the spoiler that Sam wasn't going to look for Dean I didn't feel bad for Sam.  I felt bad for Dean because I knew that the show would tell us how wrong Dean was to be hurt by that, despite it triggering his massive abandonment issues. 

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

And he killed a kid.  Not everyone sees it that way, but I do.  (I'm quite vocal, for want of a better word, about it in the episode thread.)

I'm assuming you mean the Stein kid.  I felt that way when I first watched the episode, but then I figured, hey, at the end of the day, he did (against his will, I guess) kill that bully to take off his arm for his brother or cousin or whatever.  Dean just didn't know that.

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

When Dean saves Sam in s9 the entire season is framed by telling us how wrong Dean was, even with Sam calling him selfish.  But when Sam does the exact sae thing in s10 with the book of the damned, its framed as brotherly love.  Sam even admits that his reasons are entirely selfish.  he doesn't want to be alone either. 

See, I saw them both as wrong, and I feel the show portrayed Sam as wrong also.  After all, he allowed an innocent (yet probably should be dead anyway) guy be sacrificed for the deal.  How is that not wrong?  Plus, the Darkness got let out.  Sorry, I'm just not seeing as how that was portrayed as a positive.  Unless you mean that Dean didn't get mad at him for it.  For that, no matter what the reason, I'm eternally grateful, because I just don't know if I could take another season of them angsting at each other.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean might be right a lot of the time but I find Sam is the one that gets validated.  Despite the fact that Sam more than earned Dean's lack of trust in s4, Sam did it because Dean was bossy.  Dean was never allowed a counter argument to point out all the times he gave Ruby a chance.  He's not allowed to bring up that he backed Sam's plan to get the angels and demons together.  Ruby was a part of that.  Dean thanked Ruby twice, and even told Sam to keep his secrets just stop lying.  Instead Dean was just made to apologize.

When Dean saves Sam in s9 the entire season is framed by telling us how wrong Dean was, even with Sam calling him selfish.  But when Sam does the exact sae thing in s10 with the book of the damned, its framed as brotherly love.  Sam even admits that his reasons are entirely selfish.  he doesn't want to be alone either. 

When we got the spoiler that Sam wasn't going to look for Dean I didn't feel bad for Sam.  I felt bad for Dean because I knew that the show would tell us how wrong Dean was to be hurt by that, despite it triggering his massive abandonment issues. 

I agree with all of this especially "Dean might be right a lot of the time but I find Sam is the one that gets validated". What I find to be interesting is that fans tend to blame Dean for being selfish and needy through his actions and when Sam does something distasteful it's deemed to be bad writing because it's not in his character. They're both characters; if they both come off as dicks it's because they were written that way.

[Demented Daisy]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm assuming you mean the Stein kid.  I felt that way when I first watched the episode, but then I figured, hey, at the end of the day, he did (against his will, I guess) kill that bully to take off his arm for his brother or cousin or whatever.  Dean just didn't know that.

Precisely.  He had no idea who that kid was, why he was there, what he was doing, nothing.  Dean never killed humans; he always gave them the benefit of the doubt.  Hell, he even let a few monsters go, after letting them defend themselves.  

MoC Dean didn't give a damn.

[auntvi]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

See, I saw them both as wrong, and I feel the show portrayed Sam as wrong also.

For example, 10.18 Book of the Damned closes with The Who's Behind Blue Eyes and Sam looking like he feels guilty as hell. Then in the season finale, Dean takes control and Sam is submissive.

[Wayward Son]

I'm typing from my phone so my ability to respond at the moment is limited :( . 

However, I'm honestly surprised and intrigued to hear you guys say that you feel Sam is the one validated. In my experience the show has a tendency to focus on the emotional perspective of Dean and give little on Sams thoughts, and fandom reacts accordingly. 

For instance during season 8 I remember a lot of people hated Sam and subscribed to the Dean theory he purposely "abandoned him to purgatory". In season 9 a lot of fans hated him for calling Dean out on his act of betrayal as it was portrayed as an act of brotherly love in spite of the gross consent issues involved. 

Maybe it's just the places I was hanging out at the time, but like I said my experience was that Deans point of view was the one mostly heavily emphasised. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I think the thing that really, really, really bugged me about the whole Benny situation was Dean saying that Benny was the one person who had never let him down.  Really?  You've known him a year and a half.  Sam didn

Self serving or not, IMO, from Dean's world view post Purgatory, coupled with PTSD from a year of 24/7 kill or be killed, (from Dean's POV) was that he came to see Benny as loyal and trustworthy.  He helped Dean find Cas which IMO counted maybe even more than Benny helping save Dean. Much in the way Dean is going to give extra credit to someone helping save Sam , at least for a little while.

ETA: Dean was making decisions with a messed up mind and psyche after Purgatory. I think part of why he was hell-bent on getting him and Cas out of Purgatory was that he was worried about Sam. I think it's also because Dean has moved Heaven and Hell to rescue Sam so I think he fully expected Sam to do the same thing. Between the PTSD, the shock of learning that Sam didn't look for him. 

That said, Dean said all that under the influence of the haunted coin, so how much of what he said is really how he truly felt and believed at all times? Kind of like how much of what Sam said to Dean in S1 under the influence of the evil shrink was really what Sam truly thought all the time or pinging on hurts and exacerbating it for effect?

Edited February 14, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I'm assuming you mean the Stein kid.  I felt that way when I first watched the episode, but then I figured, hey, at the end of the day, he did (against his will, I guess) kill that bully to take off his arm for his brother or cousin or whatever.  Dean just didn't know that.

See, I saw them both as wrong, and I feel the show portrayed Sam as wrong also.  After all, he allowed an innocent (yet probably should be dead anyway) guy be sacrificed for the deal.  How is that not wrong?  Plus, the Darkness got let out.  Sorry, I'm just not seeing as how that was portrayed as a positive.  Unless you mean that Dean didn't get mad at him for it.  For that, no matter what the reason, I'm eternally grateful, because I just don't know if I could take another season of them angsting at each other.

I agree in that they were both wrong how they went about it, I'm talking more about how the narrative framed the story lines, or maybe I should say the way the show framed the each brother's initial decision.  Using the Book of the Damned vs tricking Sam into possession.   Both brothers went behind the others back when they decided to go for the save.  With Dean the narrative told us that Dean knew he was going against what Sam would want.  It allowed Sam to be angry.  Sam even got to call Dean selfish.   But with Sam the narrative frames it as done in the name of the brotherly bond, so its an act of love.  As I said, Sam even tells Charlie its because he didn't want to be alone, admitting to doing it for the very same thing he raked Dean over the coals for in The Purge.   But I feel like the show is telling me, Dean is clingy, and Sam is brotherly. 

I don't need an entire season, but one of the things I do find frustrating is that Dean is never allowed to be angry, or hurt, upset or have a moment of weakness.  He's usually told to suck it up, literally has the words boo hoo thrown at him, or its just ignored and swept under the rug. 

[Wayward Son]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I agree in that they were both wrong how they went about it, I'm talking more about how the narrative framed the story lines, or maybe I should say the way the show framed the each brother's initial decision.  Using the Book of the Damned vs tricking Sam into possession.   Both brothers went behind the others back when they decided to go for the save.  With Dean the narrative told us that Dean knew he was going against what Sam would want.  It allowed Sam to be angry.  Sam even got to call Dean selfish.   But with Sam the narrative frames it as done in the name of the brotherly bond, so its an act of love.  As I said, Sam even tells Charlie its because he didn't want to be alone, admitting to doing it for the very same thing he raked Dean over the coals for in The Purge.   But I feel like the show is telling me, Dean is clingy, and Sam is brotherly. 

I don't need an entire season, but one of the things I do find frustrating is that Dean is never allowed to be angry, or hurt, upset or have a moment of weakness.  He's usually told to suck it up, literally has the words boo hoo thrown at him, or its just ignored and swept under the rug. 

I always saw the narrative as being largely focused on Dean. We were clearly shown that Dean did what he did to save Sam's life. When Sam lashed out at him in the purge it was Deans pain from Sams words that was most heavily emphasised. Also, most importantly, let's not forget they decided to devalue Sam's anger by adding in the awful "I lied" line to the final. So suddenly any value Sam's anger may have had has been lost because he was a liar anyway.

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

What I find to be interesting is that fans tend to blame Dean for being selfish and needy through his actions and when Sam does something distasteful it's deemed to be bad writing because it's not in his character.

Yes, I've never understood that in any show, movie, whatever.  It's not as if these characters have a life of their own that writers sometimes come along and mess up.  What the writers have them do, is what they do.

[ahrtee]

40 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Maybe it's just the places I was hanging out at the time, but like I said my experience was that Deans point of view was the one mostly heavily emphasised. 

I think if you read some of the older posts here, you'll find people being angry on behalf of both characters pretty equally.  It's fascinating how so many people can view the same episodes and come to such different conclusions.  That's what makes the show (and the forums) interesting.  

Edited February 14, 2017 by ahrtee
prepositions are important, too!

[Wayward Son]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, I've never understood that in any show, movie, whatever.  It's not as if these characters have a life of their own that writers sometimes come along and mess up.  What the writers have them do, is what they do.

Without focusing on whether Sam and Dean were right on specific issues I believe fans are justified to point out when a character is being written poorly and OOC. Of course the writers are the ones in control, but If the action they have them undertake goes against traits we already know then something is wrong. 

For instance back in season 6, if I remember correctly, soulless Sam purposely stood by and watched as Dean was attacked by vampires. Back then the narrative was purposely portraying this as out of character and indicating something was wrong with Sam.  Why was this a sign of something being wrong? The Sam we know loves his brother and would never stand idly by as he was being attacked. Unless there is a good narrative reason for this action, which was his soulless state in this case, then it would have been out of character and poor writing.

Likewise, if this weeks episode were to randomly have Dean chill with Cas over a beer while Sam was being mauled to death by  a werewolf on the other side of the room, it would be out of character. Why? Because the writer is writing Dean in a manner that goes against what we've learnt about him in these past twelve years. Another example would be if Dean suddenly declared he hates pie despite us knowing it's his favourite food. 

Sorry for the rather extreme and heavy handed examples to get my point across.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

For instance during season 8 I remember a lot of people hated Sam and subscribed to the Dean theory he purposely "abandoned him to purgatory". In season 9 a lot of fans hated him for calling Dean out on his act of betrayal as it was portrayed as an act of brotherly love in spite of the gross consent issues involved. 

Maybe it is the boards that you visited. I've only been in fandom for a little over a year but from my reading it's mostly been that Dean was a dick for not understanding that Sam wanted a normal life & he hurt his brother by declaring Benny to be a replacement in season 8 and being needy and selfish for allowing Gadreel to possess Sam in season 9.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I always saw the narrative as being largely focused on Dean. We were clearly shown that Dean did what he did to save Sam's life. When Sam lashed out at him in the purge it was Deans pain from Sams words that was most heavily emphasised. Also, most importantly, let's not forget they decided to devalue Sam's anger by adding in the awful "I lied" line to the final. So suddenly any value Sam's anger may have had has been lost because he was a liar anyway.

 I'm not entirely convinced that the final shot on Dean's face was to make the audience side with Dean but just to show how devastating Sam's words had been to Dean. I was surprised back at the time the episode aired in reading discussion at various outlets at how split the audience was about that scene.  I thought it was close to a 50/50 split that Sam was right to say what he did because Dean never apologized for his actions so Dean needed that slap up side his head.  It was seen as Sam standing up for himself against Dean, which isn't wrong per se. But the writing went too far with Sam condemning Dean's entire life because it was factually wrong.  I also think, that Sam was so full of anger and frustration with Dean that he unloaded on him. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Yes, I've never understood that in any show, movie, whatever.  It's not as if these characters have a life of their own that writers sometimes come along and mess up.  What the writers have them do, is what they do.

Exactly!!

[Katy M]

47 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That said, Dean said all that under the influence of the haunted coin, so how much of what he said is really how he truly felt and believed at all times?

I was actually referring to the time he said it in Citizen Fang.  I might have gotten the quote wrong, but he said something similar.   I tend not to put too much blame if either brother says or does something "mean" to the other if there is hexing involved.  Such as Asylum, Sex and Violence, Southern Comfort.  I'm equally opportunity, you get a pass for jerkiness if something's taking away your filters.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Katy M

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Is it an unpopular opinion that I don't like Benny?  I always felt like he was just a plot device to come between Sam and Dean.  It irritated me that he didn't turn out to be evil.

I hated Benny for exactly that reason. He wasn't a character. He was a plot device and one that forced both Dean and Sam to act completely ooc. As if Sam would have been so judgemental about a creature that saved his brothers life? He was always the 'shades of grey' one of the 2. And as if Dean would EVER say Benny was 'the one person who had never let him down' or even come close to implying he meant anything to him in comparison to Sam.

But then Benny was part of a period of the show (early s8) that I loathe with a passion! I almost gave up on the show after Citizen Fang. Sam not looking for Dean was a travesty of characterisation and a betrayal of the premise of the show. I will never forgive Carver for that.

Though at least he realised he was taking the show down the wrong path and tried to bring it back to the core of the brothers bond in the latter half of s8 which I really enjoyed.

[SueB]

@RulerofallIsurvey Doh! Sorry about that. *slinks off and out of the Bitterness Thread*

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I agree in that they were both wrong how they went about it, I'm talking more about how the narrative framed the story lines, or maybe I should say the way the show framed the each brother's initial decision.  Using the Book of the Damned vs tricking Sam into possession.   Both brothers went behind the others back when they decided to go for the save.  With Dean the narrative told us that Dean knew he was going against what Sam would want.  It allowed Sam to be angry.  Sam even got to call Dean selfish.   But with Sam the narrative frames it as done in the name of the brotherly bond, so its an act of love.  As I said, Sam even tells Charlie its because he didn't want to be alone, admitting to doing it for the very same thing he raked Dean over the coals for in The Purge.   But I feel like the show is telling me, Dean is clingy, and Sam is brotherly. 

I don't need an entire season, but one of the things I do find frustrating is that Dean is never allowed to be angry, or hurt, upset or have a moment of weakness.  He's usually told to suck it up, literally has the words boo hoo thrown at him, or its just ignored and swept under the rug. 

I guess it's a matter of perspective. I didn't see Dean being shown as clingy or his perspective as being shown as all that wrong - I can even play devil's advocate and argue that it's the other way around actually.

Yes, Sam called Dean selfish, but at the end of the season Sam said "I lied" and then did exactly what Dean did, so in my mind, this effectively erased all of Sam's arguments of Dean being selfish and instead showed Sam as just as selfish and a liar or a hypocrite as well. And where you saw the narrative as showing that Sam's using the Book of the Damned as being done in the name of brotherly love, I saw was everyone in the narrative telling Sam not to do it and/or it was crazy or dangerous or both - just in case Dean saying it wasn't what he wanted wasn't enough to let us know it was all going to go wrong. And then just in case we weren't entirely clear that the narrative wanted us to see what Sam did as wrong... what Sam did started an apocalypse... not exactly rewarding Sam's actions with hugs and puppies there, in my opinion anyway.

In contrast, with Dean and Gadreel, Dean's actions with Sam are not only somewhat justified by Sam's understandable anger being nullified with "I lied," but it turns out  Gadreel is redeemed and helps to stop an apocalypse, so it was a good thing that Dean helped Gadreel possess Sam, huh, or Metatron wouldn't have been stopped. I'm not seeing how that shows Dean as being clingy and Sam not when Sam admits in the end that he would've done the same thing and then did do the same thing - so wouldn't that also make Sam clingy, too? And just in case we didn't get that memo, the narrative had Sam start an apocalypse to show how wrong Sam was.

So while you see Dean not being allowed to be hurt or angry, I see the same for Sam. Sam's point of Dean not apologizing for Gadreel - or at least for the lying part anyway - was all swept under the rug by the end of the season. Sam had no legitimate reason for being angry, because he would do the same thing. So Dean was proven right twice: first because "You would do the same for me" was true in the end, and then also because Gadreel helped to save the world. So Sam being angry was all just Sam being a jerk, or a hypocrite, or both. With Sam starting the apocalypse just being further evidence that Sam had no right to be angry, because he's a hypocrite and a huge screw up anyway.

I understand there are different perspectives though. Nor do I entirely believe the writers meant all of the things I'm pointing to. I'm just trying to show that there are other ways to look at the show and how it's being presented.

4 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Maybe it is the boards that you visited. I've only been in fandom for a little over a year but from my reading it's mostly been that Dean was a dick for not understanding that Sam wanted a normal life & he hurt his brother by declaring Benny to be a replacement in season 8 and being needy and selfish for allowing Gadreel to possess Sam in season 9.

Heh. The board that I was on during the time? At least %25 thought that Sam should be killed off so that Dean and Benny could go hunting together instead (and no, I'm not exaggerating), about %40 wouldn't go that far, but thought that Sam was just the worst brother ever for not looking for Dean and being meen to Benny, about %15 (where I was) thought there must be an explanation - maybe Sam was crazy/broken and Amelia was just a delusion? Yeah that had to be it* - and maybe the other %20 maybe included people who thought maybe Sam was justified. That's being generous though, because a portion of those were just in it for Castiel.

I'm not quite sure what happened in early season 9, because I got booted off the board for trying to stick up for Sam and didn't return for about 6 months (and had to come back incognito under a different name.)

* Sadly I held onto that hope until it was finally shown that Amelia was indeed real - even then I didn't want to believe it. Those of us with this theory tried to cite reasons like: did we ever see Amelia interact with anyone but Sam? Did we ever see Amelia and Sam any places where other people were? It had to be a delusion... look at all of that overly bright lighting, "Star Trek filter" glow, over the top situations (a birthday picnic, really? And she got a cake and all the fixings out there on her own - with a dog no less - without Sam seeing it... riiiight.), and the inane conversations alone. Sadly despite what we thought was very good evidence that this could be a delusion and how much that made sense, we were proven wrong. Amelia was sadly real and not something Sam made up to punish himself and she really was that annoying. Hee.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It was seen as Sam standing up for himself against Dean, which isn't wrong per se. But the writing went too far with Sam condemning Dean's entire life because it was factually wrong.

And by doing this, I thought that the writers undermined Sam's right to be angry. I almost wonder if they did it deliberately to further the "brother above all else" agenda. Having Sam take it all back at the end of the season for me just further undermined any legitimacy in Sam's point here and showed Dean was in the right. It's like the writers couldn't let Sam make a legitimate point without making him look like a jerk or a hypocrite in the process. Why can't they just let Sam complain that Dean lied to him and that he's hurt about it and leave it at that? They let Dean complain enough about Sam betraying Dean with Ruby and not looking for him in purgatory without having Dean get all personal and mean.

Edited February 14, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And by doing this, I thought that the writers undermined Sam's right to be angry. I almost wonder if they did it deliberately to further the "brother above all else" agenda. Having Sam take it all back at the end of the season for me just further undermined any legitimacy in Sam's point here and showed Dean was in the right. It's like the writers couldn't let Sam make a legitimate point without making him look like a jerk or a hypocrite in the process. Why can't they just let Sam complain that Dean lied to him and that he's hurt about it and leave it at that? They let Dean complain enough about Sam betraying Dean with Ruby and not looking for him in purgatory without having Dean get all personal and mean.

FWIW, IMO I think the writers thought Sam was right in his anger especially when Dean was  unapologetic for his actions. I think Jared probably didn't help Sams' case by shorthanding the original script to "I lied" which made it  too ambiguous as to what Sam was lying about. So I have come to think " I lied" was about Sam being okay with Dean dying but not that Sam okay with how Dean went about saving him and continuing to lie about It.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

@RulerofallIsurvey Doh! Sorry about that. *slinks off and out of the Bitterness Thread*

Oh No!  Don't you slink out of here now!  ;)

[Katy M]

13 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Without focusing on whether Sam and Dean were right on specific issues I believe fans are justified to point out when a character is being written poorly and OOC.

Of course.   But, if a character starts consistently doing something, then the character has changed.  You are, of course, free to not like that change, and complain about it.  But, IRL people change.  So, I guess what I'm saying, is if a character does a one-off and it's OOC, you can say it's bad writing.  If they have a pattern of doing things, it's silly to defend the character by saying the writer had him do it.  And, speaking of defending characters, yes, have your favorites, and discuss motivations and plot points, but it's crazy to start defending and attacking the characters as if they are real people with feelings who need or want defending.

Sorry, if I didn't phrase that well, or if it came across wrong, but I'm just migrating over from the IMDB board where anytime you say something positive about Sam you get accused of attacking Dean, when I feel you ought to be able to speak of them in their own right and not everything has to be a competition between them.

[catrox14]

I guess my new UO, is that the Carver era is not all that bad IMO.

I've been doing a Carver era rewatch, kind of prompted by our discussions here and why I seem to land on the side of not really hating Carver years. I mean he certainly had his flaws but I think s9, s10 and some of s11  hold up better on binge re-watch than on first airings.  I can deal with characters doing things OOC if the writers at minimum offer some kind of reason why the character did said thing that seemed OOC and I can either accept it or not.  For example, my strange journey with demon!Dean being the most difficult time I ever had with the show (like almost rage quit) but then I met demon!Dean and welp I "loved" him. I mean  I hate how he came into being and I still gasp and cry when Dean is stabbed by Metatron ( fuck that guy) yet I loved his existence and wish that arc had lasted at least 6 to 10 episodes. I'm sure much of my enjoyment arose from Jensen's work as demon!Dean but it's still a valid reason for enjoying that character. It was quite a CONUNDRUM!

 

Anyway, I happen to be in the middle of s8.

I go back and forth on whether Sam not looking for Dean was OOC.  I can make a case for both being in character for Sam overall but OOC for how they've portrayed the boys willingness to move heaven and earth for each other recently it seems more OOC. 

It would match with Sam  having had the underlying desire to get out of the hunting life, that he never really wanted to be in it again once he went to college; that he only really returned to get vengeance on Azazel for killing Jessica. He went back to school as soon as they got some kind of line on John and even though Dean wanted him to stay, he didn't fight Sam over it. He accepted Sam's decision. So maybe in s8, once he thought Dean was dead he just said "Fuck it, I'm done" and walked away from it all, including Kevin.  Maybe the writers were seeing it as a healthy option for Sam to walk away.  Sam had his mostly pleasant life with Amelia and seemed not unhappy. What was never clear to me is if Sam went to the cabin of his own accord as a break from Amelia or because Dean contacted him and asked him to meet him. If he went because Dean called him, then he was choosing to return to the hunting life or at least catch up with Dean. If he had already decided to leave Amelia and go back to hunting on his own that changes a lot. But I don't recall it ever being explained one way or the other.

I think Dean was intended to be considered untrustworthy and potentially dangerous because he became besties with a vampire which some might consider OOC for Dean.  The mystery of Cas' absence also may have been intended to show Dean in a more sketchy light given his new friendship with Benny.  Dean had rage episodes that were not really normal even for Dean. He was having flashbacks to Purgatory. He was overreacting to many things. Those glimpses into Dean's existence in Purgatory, helped explain why he was loyal to Benny.  Some may reject that rationale but it did exist. Similarly but with far less clarity Sam said he was just done and that he was honoring the deal to never look for each other.  It's a crapton of borderline retcon. If the retcon is not accepted there will be a lot of dissatisfaction.

[Wayward Son]

18 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 I'm not entirely convinced that the final shot on Dean's face was to make the audience side with Dean but just to show how devastating Sam's words had been to Dean. I was surprised back at the time the episode aired in reading discussion at various outlets at how split the audience was about that scene.  I thought it was close to a 50/50 split that Sam was right to say what he did because Dean never apologized for his actions so Dean needed that slap up side his head.  It was seen as Sam standing up for himself against Dean, which isn't wrong per se. But the writing went too far with Sam condemning Dean's entire life because it was factually wrong.  I also think, that Sam was so full of anger and frustration with Dean that he unloaded on him. 

 

13 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Heh. The board that I was on during the time? At least %25 thought that Sam should be killed off so that Dean and Benny could go hunting together instead (and no, I'm not exaggerating), about %40 wouldn't go that far, but thought that Sam was just the worst brother ever for not looking for Dean and being meen to Benny, about %15 (where I was) thought there must be an explanation - maybe Sam was crazy/broken and Amelia was just a delusion? Yeah that had to be it* - and maybe the other %20 maybe included people who thought maybe Sam was justified. That's being generous though, because a portion of those were just in it for Castiel.

I remember having a rather similar experience to Awesomo4000 throughout the course of Season 9. From what I saw Sam suffered a severe backlash from fandom after his words to Dean at the end of The Purge. I also remember seeing several people making remarks along the lines of "why doesn't Sam just go off to his normal life and let Dean hunt with Benny and Sam again". I think the need to defend Sam's actions is why I have such strong feelings, which I'll elaborate below, about his motivations throughout the course of season eight and nine. I was mostly on Livejournal and lurking Tumblr at the time if I remember correctly. I guess you were just luckier than us Catrox :) 

 

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

Of course.   But, if a character starts consistently doing something, then the character has changed.  You are, of course, free to not like that change, and complain about it.  But, IRL people change.  So, I guess what I'm saying, is if a character does a one-off and it's OOC, you can say it's bad writing.  If they have a pattern of doing things, it's silly to defend the character by saying the writer had him do it.  And, speaking of defending characters, yes, have your favorites, and discuss motivations and plot points, but it's crazy to start defending and attacking the characters as if they are real people with feelings who need or want defending.

Sorry, if I didn't phrase that well, or if it came across wrong, but I'm just migrating over from the IMDB board where anytime you say something positive about Sam you get accused of attacking Dean, when I feel you ought to be able to speak of them in their own right and not everything has to be a competition between them.

Hey, I'm sorry to hear you had that experience on the IMDB boards. I was never a member on there, but I too have experienced the Sam vs Dean mentality. I'm pretty new to this forum, but one of the things I love most is that everyone seems to be pretty open minded and willing to discuss things without the need for throwing accusations around :). 

 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I goback and forth on whether Sam not looking for Dean was OOC.  I can make a case for both being in character for Sam overall but OOC for how they've portrayed the boys willingness to move heaven and earth for each other recently it seems more OOC. 

It would match with Sam  having had the underlying desire to get out of the hunting life, that he never really wanted to be in it again once he went to college; that he only really returned to get vengeance on Azazel for killing Jessica. He went back to school as soon as they got some kind of line on John and even though Dean wanted him to stay, he didn't fight Sam over it. He accepted Sam's decision. So maybe in s8, once he thought Dean was dead he just said "Fuck it, I'm done" and walked away from it all, including Kevin.  Maybe the writers were seeing it as a healthy option for Sam to walk away.  Sam had his mostly pleasant life with Amelia and seemed not unhappy. What was never clear to me is if Sam went to the cabin of his own accord as a break from Amelia or because Dean contacted him and asked him to meet him. If he went because Dean called him, then he was choosing to return to the hunting life or at least catch up with Dean. If he had already decided to leave Amelia and go back to hunting on his own that changes a lot. But I don't recall it ever being explained one way or the other.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, in my opinion, the show does a much better job of portraying Dean's emotional state to the audience. I do think they try to share some information about Sam’s perspective, but it is often little crumbs throughout episodes, which means the audience has to work harder to truly understand where Sam is coming from. In my opinion the common belief that Sam's decision at the beginning of season eight was a 'betrayal to his characterisation' is due to a misunderstanding amongst fans as to why Sam behaved the way he did.

Firstly, I do not believe, as many do, that Sam knowingly abandoned Dean to purgatory and chose to walk away and leave him to it. There is simply too much evidence that shows us that Sam genuinely believed Dean was dead at the end of Survival of the Fittest. When they reunite in We Need to Talk About Kevin he immediately exclaims “You’re frigging alive” with shock and delight. These are not the words of someone who has spent the last year believing Dean was simply traipsing through an alternative dimension. Furthermore, during the flashbacks shown in Hunteri Heroici Jared clearly depicts Sam as grieving for the loss of Dean. The show even goes as far as to create a parallel between Sam’s grief for Dean and Amelia’s sorrow for Don. Interestingly enough, the parallel continues when both are proven to be mistaken in their grief as Dean and Don later show up alive and healthy. Ultimately, this shows that Sam’s motivations were very different to what Dean (and many members of the audience) have chosen to believe. Sam’s behaviour in the year between seasons seven and eight had nothing to do with ‘abandoning Dean’, but rather he was someone who had (erroneously) accepted the loss of a loved one and chose to try and move on with their life. To me this is a very important distinction as I would agree had Sam knowingly abandoned Dean it would have been out of character. However, after all they’ve been through and witnessing the consequences, such as the apocalypse, that have occurred as a result of their previous meddling with the natural order I do think it is possible Sam decided enough was enough. 

Secondly, I feel many fans fail to truly consider the psychological state Sam was in at this point in his life. We are used to thinking of the Winchesters as heroes. The world can continue to throw crap on them and they will keep going because that is the way they are built. That is probably why many find Sam’s abandonment of Kevin abhorrent and out of character. However, this is simply not the case and we have to remember Sam had been through a hell of a lot in the year preceding the ‘loss’ of Dean. He lost Bobby, a man who in some ways was more of a father to him than John ever was. He also had to deal with the trauma his soul underwent from spending a year in the cage. This trauma included struggling to separate his delusions from reality, which made his link to the world around him very tenuous. Now from Sam’s perspective he also has to accept the loss of his brother and deal with being in the world on his own. 

In my opinion, Sam suffered a mental breakdown at the end of season seven. He could no longer deal with the difficulties of his life and he ran away from his problems until he found something to cling on to i.e. Amelia and the life of normalcy she represented. My belief stems from the parallels we were shown in Hunteri Heroici. For instance when the caretaker states the following (in regards to his patients) “A lot of these people they just tune out living in their own heads, it’s like maybe the real world is too much for them and they just run and hide, you know?” his words are followed by a flashback to Sam’s life between seasons seven and eight. There is clearly meant to be a link between the words spoken by the caretaker and the flashback that follows it. Furthermore, the issue of Sam’s breakdown at the end of season seven is more explicitly addressed by Amelia’s father Stan during the episode; “See I find that hard to believe… cus I gotta say Sam you got the look… the one a lot of guys get after they’ve been through the meat grinder. The one that lets you know they’ve seen a lot of crap they can’t forget, the second their feet hits solid ground they start running and they don’t stop. Not till they find someone to hold on to…” Therefore, any OOC behaviour on Sam’s part during this period can be explained by the fact that people experiencing mental breakdowns are not going to behave the way they would while they’re more mentally capable. Who knows, maybe Sam would have realised Dean’s true fate had he been in a better mindset, but alas he wasn’t.

Thirdly, as I touched on earlier, I think Sam’s decision also stemmed from the belief that he may have caused more harm than good if he were to try and resurrect Dean. Throughout previous seasons we (and Sam) have seen the price of their meddling with the natural order the most prominent being the breaking of the sixty six seals and the rise of Lucifer. I think this can be backed by the fact that when Sam himself was hovering between life and death in I Think I’m Gonna Like it Here he asks Death to ensure he cannot be brought back so that no one else gets hurt by his return. 

Of course, we see in later seasons that Sam abandons this newfound belief and returns to the old “I gotta save Dean and damn the consequences” mindset. However, I think this can be explained by the fact that Sam was shown to experience a large amount of guilt and self-loathing for his failure to save Dean once he realised he was not dead and in fact alive the whole time. I think Sam is now largely driven by the need to ensure he never fails Dean in such a way again. Also, I think it can be argued it is one thing to accept the death of a loved one once it has actually occurred as Sam believed at the end of Survival of the Fittest. It is quite another to let them die when they’re still alive and there is a chance to save them yet as was the case in Brother’s Keeper, or when he makes the “I lied remark” in Do You Believe in Miracles. 

Overall, I do think that the information I provide above is the message the writers were trying to convey to the audience due to the examples I list. However, I think they fail the character of Sam (and the audience) by never providing him with the opportunity to actually explictly share his perspective with Dean. Instead they simply conclude season eight with Sam displaying his self loathing and his guilt for letting Dean down without truly delving in to the whys of his behaviour. 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

I would have had no real problem with the concept of Sam not looking for Dean if the aftermath had played out better. The Vampire Diaries did a similar story with one brother even knowingly giving up on searching for his brother when it was unclear if they were dead or alive. And he caught mucho flack from other characters for it. He explained that he had searched far and wide but simply lost hope. It all culminated in a wonderful brother reunion where the brother who had seemingly moved on with his life just said "I tried but I`m lost". THAT, I found poignant and relatable. And those brothers have a contentious relationship at best.

What did Supernatural do? Dean comes back right away and Sam acts kinda... "um...hm...just when my going was good". Dean was understandably thrown and hurt by the basic statement "no, I did nothing, I didn`t even look under one stone". Tensions arise and it all culminates with Sam declaring that he has enough of the attitude, that he explained himself right away and Dean better get over it or else. 

It was like, wow, what should Dean apologize for here first? Being alive? Runining Sam`s newfound life by not being dead? Having actually found someone who helped him to be alive? Should he have waited for Sam`s help in Purgatory? Evidently not because none was forthcoming.

My problem was the attitude. No Sam, you DIDN`T explain yourself. Everyone would be hurt if they came back and heard "well, I did nothing and moved on, what`s your fucking problem with that?" Dean didn`t get to see the brightly lit flashbacks. Not that I found those particularly enlightening for the current attitude either.

So I always had a big problem with Dean supposedly being so mean during that time. If that was mean, my reaction in such a situation and faced with that attitude would have been possibly acidic.

Then in Season 9 Sam actually had a legitimate grievance about the Gadreel possession and the "I wouldn`t save you with similar circumstances" statement was the one I had no  problem with but the entire rest of his diatribe was basically calling Dean human garbage. Lets see, he was selfish, weak, cowardly and delusional about any possible worth he might have had as a person. And he had apparently never been anything else ever. Wow, tell us how you really feel, Sam. And each of those were blanket statements, not one was in reference to their current beef.     

That`s why when they later try to pull overdramatized moments like "you will never hear me say you are anything but good" in the Season 10 Finale just makes me roll my eyes disgustedly. I already did hear that. So did Dean. And it wasn`t the first instance of such a speech, though certainly the worst.

I can`t un-see or un-hear stuff like that. I mean, if someone even remotely said something like that to me, I would never not believe they think differently deep down. Like woohoo, maybe they don`t show it today but wait for next week. 

Ironically, if Sam had said stuff like "I hate you right now" or "I don`t think I can ever forgive/trust you" and anything in that vein, no big deal. But what he said? Deal-breaker times 5 million.

 

Quote

I do think they try to share some information about Sam’s perspective, but it is often little crumbs throughout episodes, which means the audience has to work harder to truly understand where Sam is coming from.

And yet there are some episodes when you get his perspective explicitely, like in Season 4 the episode actually playing out inside his head, with his hallucinations. And in it a version of Mary basically stanned him and told him he was strong and Dean was weak. Again, his innermost thoughts. That was actually worse for me then keeping his perspective more nebulous because that even lets the "benefit of the doubt" option fly out the window. However, I believe this was meant to be a sympathetic perspective, I just thought it wasn`t flattering.

Equally, I do believe Dean`s perspective is often meant to make him seem in a much more unflattering light then Jensen manages to infuse it with some sympathy.  

Edited February 14, 2017 by Aeryn13

[auntvi]

17 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

cus I gotta say Sam you got the look… the one a lot of guys get after they’ve been through the meat grinder. The one that lets you know they’ve seen a lot of crap they can’t forget, the second their feet hits solid ground they start running and they don’t stop. Not till they find someone to hold on to…”

Sounds like PTSD also, which supports your thought that Sam had some kind of breakdown.

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I guess you were just luckier than us Catrox :) 

I don't know if it was a matter of luckier but more of where I was posting and reading. I wasn't a viewer until 2013.  I've told this story before but my first glimpse of SPN was literally the Dean/Cas reunion scene in Purgatory after I finished watching the pilot of Arrow. But I didn't watch another episode until I finally did a binge watch over the holidays of 2013. I started live in s9. 

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know if it was a matter of luckier but more of where I was posting and reading. I wasn't a viewer until 2013.  I've told this story before but my first glimpse of SPN was literally the Dean/Cas reunion scene in Purgatory after I finished watching the pilot of Arrow. But I didn't watch another episode until I finally did a binge watch over the holidays of 2013. I started live in s9. 

What a wonderful scene to introduce you to the show :) . I started watching back in 2006. It was the episode with Lenore and the show initially caught my attention because it guest starred Amber Benson who starred in my all time favourite show Buffy :)

Edited February 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

What a wonderful scene to introduce you to the show :) . I started watching back in 2006. It was the episode with Lenore and the show initially caught my attention because it guest starred Amber Benson who starred in my all time favourite show Buffy :)

I realize that this is getting off on a tangent, but my first scene was halfway through Bedtime Stories, when they're walking down the hall with the doctor and then they say something about burning bones and Dean has to go fight the big bad wolf, and I was like WTH am I watching?  LOL.  But, the first epi I saw the whole thing was A Very Supernatural Christmas and that was the one that got me.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

What a wonderful scene to introduce you to the show :) . I started watching back in 2006. It was the episode with Lenore and the show initially caught my attention because it guest starred Amber Benson who starred in my all time favourite show Buffy :)

I was intrigued for a few reasons

1) I was a HUGE BSG fan and I thought the music was straight out of BSG
2) The desaturated look reminded me of BSG and I thought oh, what's happening here. Also, that dude with that weird weapon is gorgeous! 
3) Not a word of a lie, I literally remember thinking "Huh, this show seems pretty progressive with this rather macho guy who seems to have found his boyfriend!" But I just never got around to watching it again until another blog did a rewatch and I zoomed past them in my own binge watch.  And only then did I learn about Destiel, which I'm not a shipper of per se, just love the relationship between Dean and Cas.

[catrox14]

Back on topic, I think Sam's emotions are written into the narrative even if his motivations (particularly s8) are not as clear as they could be. It's written that Sam is angry, resentful, vengeful and his reactions to things reflect that within the actual narrative and the audience is expected to be angry, resentful or sad along with Sam. And conversely I don't know whether Deans emotional POV is really scripted per se vs how Jensen has played the character.

IMO,  Dean was written as pretty much a stereotypical Macho Tough Guy asshole in the pilot. He was written to fight his brother when he broke into Sams apt, which was funny to a degree, but then later he had real anger with Sam when he shoved him against the bridge railing when they argued about Mary. . But that facade fell away in  short order when  he was arrested and the cop was on to him. I'm not entirely sure back then if that was what Kripke intended. Like when I read a transcript Dean really comes off badly a lot of the time. But then when I see how Jensen plays those scenes it sometimes subverts or plays with  bravado/facade  of Tough Guy Dean Winchester and he gives Dean a vulnerability that IMO was not necessarily how the character was written to begin with.

Even now when Dean speaks to his anger or his true feelings about something they are more often than not either shut down, or mocked or told he's wrong and the narrative supports that shut down, but because Jensen is so good at giving Dean those layers the audience is often compelled to feel something for Dean, which doesn't necessarily mean the narrative is asking the audience to take Dean's side.  I will say that in s12 he's sticking with his viewpoint even as others take issue with him, until he is ready to share or come to his own conclusions, which is not to say that he's tuning out others per se, but he's not feeling guilty for his emotions and reactions.

Edited February 14, 2017 by catrox14

[auntvi]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Even now when Dean speaks to his anger or his true feelings about something they are more often than not either shut down, or mocked or told he's wrong and the narrative supports that shut down

Can you give me an example? I'm finishing my re-watch of Season 9 now, so all I can think of is Mark of Cain Dean.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Can you give me an example? I'm finishing my re-watch of Season 9 now, so all I can think of is Mark of Cain Dean.

I made an edit to my post. Maybe that will answer your question?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I actually agree with a lot of what @Aeryn13 said, but isn't this:

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

My problem was the attitude. No Sam, you DIDN`T explain yourself.

pretty much what @Wayward Son said here?:

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

However, I think they fail the character of Sam (and the audience) by never providing him with the opportunity to actually explictly share his perspective with Dean.

And I agree with this (well, I'd leave off the 'asshole'...  :) )

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO,  Dean was written as pretty much a stereotypical Macho Tough Guy asshole in the pilot.

But if this is true:

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But then when I see how Jensen plays those scenes it sometimes subverts or plays with  bravado/facade  of Tough Guy Dean Winchester and he gives Dean a vulnerability that IMO was not necessarily how the character was written to begin with.

Then how can you say this is true:

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Back on topic, I think Sam's emotions are written into the narrative even if his motivations (particularly s8) are not as clear as they could be. It's written that Sam is angry, resentful, vengeful and his reactions to things reflect that within the actual narrative and the audience is expected to be angry, resentful or sad along with Sam.

How can you say that one characters emotions are written into the narrative but not the others'?  I really doubt that's how it works on this show with two leads.  Maybe in the beginning.  In S1.  But not now.  I would suggest that maybe it's also how the actor decides to interpret the script and what Sam is/should be feeling and that's how the actor plays it - just as you say that the actor plays Dean with more vulnerability than the script allows.  But, since I've never seen an actual script, I don't know.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I know the scruff is the thing now - but every now and again, I miss the boys being clean shaven.  I mean, we saw Dean with a cordless razor - supposedly shaving in First Blood - and yet I never saw him without the actual scruff.  Seriously?  They don't even shave when they pose as FBI agents anymore, which I think would be a big No No.  I want to see those pretty faces and Sam's cute dimples!

Also: Mick's perfectly sculpted scruff looked way too fake and was seriously distracting.  

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

How can you say that one characters emotions are written into the narrative but not the others'?  I really doubt that's how it works on this show with two leads.  Maybe in the beginning.  In S1.  But not now.  I would suggest that maybe it's also how the actor decides to interpret the script and what Sam is/should be feeling and that's how the actor plays it - just as you say that the actor plays Dean with more vulnerability than the script allows.  But, since I've never seen an actual script, I don't know.

I didn't say anything about seeing scripts, I was referring to just reading dialogue via transcripts.

I was trying to say Dean in the pilot was an asshole.  I have no problem saying that. And at times throughout s1 he was occasionally an asshole, but one that IMO due to Jensen's work, allowed the audience to still not hate Dean entirely. If Dead in the Water hadn't come along, I probably would have stopped watching the show during my binge, because I really didn't like either brother that much.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

They don't even shave when they pose as FBI agents anymore, which I think would be a big No No.  I want to see those pretty faces and Sam's cute dimples!

I think Sam's hair looks pretty ridiculous for an FBI agent anyway, scruff or no scruff.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

FWIW, IMO I think the writers thought Sam was right in his anger especially when Dean was  unapologetic for his actions. I think Jared probably didn't help Sams' case by shorthanding the original script to "I lied" which made it  too ambiguous as to what Sam was lying about. So I have come to think " I lied" was about Sam being okay with Dean dying but not that Sam okay with how Dean went about saving him and continuing to lie about It.

There's some bold for the Too long; didn't read people, so you can skip if you want (or skip the whole thing. I'll understand that, too). Sorry for the length, but I wanted to explain my reasoning.

But the writers then had Sam actually do that exact same thing... i.e. call up Crowley, obviously to do something untoward to get Dean back. And if that wasn't evidence enough that the "I lied" was meant to mean exactly that Sam would do that exact same thing - including the lying - we got much of season 10 which was exactly Sam doing anything and everything to save Dean, damn the consequences, including lying to Dean about it, just to show us this and to make sure it was crystal clear. I think Carver meant exactly to show that Sam was a hypocrite and undermine what I agree was Sam's right to be upset. Because nope: Carver couldn't just let Sam be justifiably angry and have the brothers move on. He had to have Sam make a speech that if Carver didn't know it would anger most of the fans, he's delusional, to garner sympathy for Dean's side (close up of Dean's upset face), have Dean proclaim "you would do the same," and then proceed to show explicitly that, indeed, Dean was correct about that... and not only was Dean correct, but Sam was worse, because see Sam started an apocalypse.

And as I've said, interestingly, Dean's actions in saving Sam had some good consequences. Yes, Kevin died, but Gadreel helped save the world. So to me the message was that Dean was right in saving Sam and lying about it, because mostly good happened. But Sam dared to question that, so as punishment, he was shown to be a hypocrite, and his actions not only ended up in Charlie dying (as a parallel to Kevin), but Sam released the darkness that Carver made sure to show killed thousands of innocent people mostly just to show that what Sam did caused thousands of people to be killed, I guess, since it wasn't really necessary for the plot. The consequences were not even remotely equal, in my opinion, even though I thought that the actions were fairly similar, and that is the part that annoys me. If this wasn't meant to be a smackdown of Sam, then why heap on all the extra awful consequences to prove the point?

Basically this goes to my point that I don't think that Dean is the only character to have his feelings invalidated, it's just that instead of  "boo hoo princess," Sam's character gets smacked down to undermine and invalidate his feelings. I know many will disagree, but I'd take an occasional "boo hoo princess" any day to the dismissal Sam gets... because Sam's dismissal is "see Sam's feelings aren't really valid, because he's a hypocrite and a jerk anyway." And I might not think this of the Carver era if the same thing hadn't happened in season 8. As @Wayward Son pointed out above, all of the elements were there for Sam to have simply, finally lost it, and decided it was just too much, but nope, Carver couldn't allow Sam to have and express those feelings. He regressed him back to it supposedly being Sam just wanting a "normal life" again - which I thought was a little bit of an OOC thing, but okay - but instead of even letting Sam express that in a way that was okay, Carver set up a conflict that would obviously make Sam look badly to undermine Sam's feelings by having Sam be cool to Dean, blame Dean for his "normal life" not working, and be jealous of Benny... Then smack Sam down and have him learn the very special lesson that hunting is what he wanted to do after all (something Sam already learned and expressed in season 5 and season 7, but whatever), so all of his being a jerk in season 8 was just him being a hypocrite again... poor Dean having to put up with Sam and giving up Benny. Bobby comes along to make sure we know that Sam is being a jerk about it also. And don't get me started on Sam not finishing the trials and how that was used to paint him as a hypocrite also. And then we have the admission of wrongdoing in season 11, showing how Sam's supposed want for a normal life and "abandoning" Dean was the worst thing he ever did and also lead to the apocalypse which actual God tells us is all Sam's fault - more character smackdown - rather than showing it as what it could've been... Sam momentarily having understandable doubts about hunting because he just couldn't take it any more. But then Carver couldn't make Sam "wrong" about his feelings and then smack him down for it, so instead he twists it to make sure that whatever Sam feels is either not clear or not important anyway, because Sam is a hypocrite and/or doesn't know what he wants anyway. And if Sam has a different opinion, generally not listening to or agreeing with Dean's point of view ends in some sort of catastrophe caused by Sam. Or he's at least shown to be wrong in a monumental way.

I have to look around much of that in order to enjoy at least some of season 10 and I love season 11 in spite of it, but I've generally come to expect that Carver was going to get his jollies by smacking down Sam's character whenever he could, and once I accepted that, I could move on. I tried looking at it as maybe Carver really does think Sam's point of view is valid, but the evidence just doesn't add up - too many smackdowns and straight forwardly showing how Sam was wrong, screwed up, and here's the awful consequences, etc. So I just accept it and move on... and now he's gone, so yay.

And that's why I dislike much of the Carver era.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't say anything about seeing scripts, I was referring to just reading dialogue via transcripts.

Sorry.  I interpreted "narrative" to mean the original scripts which the actors would use - but didn't think you'd necessarily seen one either.  That was kind of my point.  Doesn't the dialogue in the episode (from which the transcripts are culled) come from the script?  And I don't know - it's been awhile since my theater days - sometimes, I think, the scripts will contain director's notes, but most often that stuff comes from the actors themselves, I believe.  

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think Sam's hair looks pretty ridiculous for an FBI agent anyway, scruff or no scruff.

Agreed - and that used to really bother me, but I also used to watch Criminal Minds and Spencer Reid had some pretty long hair at one point.  So I figured, if he could get away with it...

(At least Spencer shaves.)

[catrox14]

ETA:  Sam was the main character in the beginning of the show.  I'm not entirely sure he's not still the main character.  IMO everyone was there to serve Sam's story, which is NOT a complaint or criticism. It's just the story Kripke wanted to tell.  Dean was there to help tell Sam's story.   So to that end I think the writers wrote Sam's emotions, reasons, actions, reactions into the storyline EVEN if in a mysterious and not well thought out manner like in s4.

I think Jensen played Dean in a way that compelled the writers to look beyond the stereotype that was set out for Dean in the pilot