Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[catrox14]

From the All Seasons thread

Re @ahrtee's post about Dean's Hell time. It is a bitterness topic for me so I'm bringing it here.

 

The writers already made clear via dialogue which hell time they consider worse. Dean`s hell got retconned into "Disneyland". And if it is brought up these days, it is solely to focus on the torture aspect, noone remembers the being tortured part. In the aftermath, the storyline has been botched beyond repair IMO

.

I agree.

I wish the show had connected Dean's Hell time with why he was able to be turned into a demon by the Mark.  They could have said..Dean's been to Hell, he was on his way to becoming a demon which is why he was "worthy" of the Mark. But NOPE they never made that connection and decided that it was because it was always in Dean's DNA.

 

Ruby said Hell burned away one's humanity via torment and torture and pain. I would think after 30 years of torment a lot of one's humanity is already lost. The once one picks up the knife to torture another person, a different part of one's  humanity is lost and eventually it's gone altogether until one becomes a demon.

 

I always wondered why Sam wasn't on his way to becoming a demon when he was in the Cage but I assume it's because he was being tortured by archangels and not demons and that he never tortured someone else? 

 

Which makes me wonder why he even had a vision of Alastair torturing him When the Levee Breaks. Was it because he killed Alastair and thought Alastair came back to torture him? 

 

cue bitter rant about Dean not being able to keep his own torturer in Hell to himself.

Edited March 11, 2016 by catrox14

[Binns]

Has Dean never said ILY to Sam? Sam has said it to him, hasn't he? Or maybe they've sort of danced around it.

[Demented Daisy]

I am NOT going back and making another list!  I gave up on the last one because no one seemed to care!  

 

;-)

[catrox14]

AFAIR, Dean has never explicitly said the words 'I love you' to anyone other than Mary and that was in Dark Side of the Moon during Dean's happiest memories one of which was him as a 4 year old getting the crust cut off his sandwich and feeling compelled to comfort Mary when she was fighting with John on the phone.  Wee!Dean walks over to her, hugs her, and says 'It's okay, Mom. Dad still loves you and I love you, too. I'll never leave you".

 

/gross sobbing.

 

Sam told Dean he loved him but he never said explicitly "I love you" in s10 

 

He said, about Charlie "She loves you. WE ALL love you!"

Edited March 11, 2016 by catrox14

[NoWillToResist]

Dean does his best not to express his emotions, at least not ones that make him seem vulnerable or a burden, to others. Which I can get because while some people may show initial sympathy, couple episodes later to use it as ammunition to call him weak or a burden etc.  

 

Unless he's confessing weakness/vulnerability to Cas; IIRC, in those instances, he tends to get support and sympathy rather than judgement.

 

AFAIR, Dean has never explicitly said the words 'I love you' to anyone other than Mary and that was in Dark Side of the Moon during Dean's happiest memories one of which was him as a 4 year old getting the crust cut off his sandwich and feeling compelled to comfort Mary when she was fighting with John on the phone.  Wee!Dean walks over to her, hugs her, and says 'It's okay, Mom. Dad still loves you and I love you, too. I'll never leave you".

 

/gross sobbing.

 

Sam told Dean he loved him but he never said explicitly "I love you" in s10 

 

He said, about Charlie "She loves you. WE ALL love you!"

 

We also had a reference to love when Dean talks about how Sam and Cas helped him with the MoC ("the people who love me...")

 

I think the whole 'love' business is just assumed/understood and so they see no need to outright say it? Throw in a healthy dose of repression and stiff upper lip child-rearing and it's not remotely surprising to me that they don't say it...

Edited March 11, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

Unless he's confessing weakness/vulnerability to Cas; IIRC, in those instances, he tends to get support and sympathy rather than judgement.

 

 

We also had a reference to love when Dean talks about how Sam and Cas helped him with the MoC ("the people who love me...")

 

I think the whole 'love' business is just assumed/understood and so they see no need to outright say it? Throw in a healthy dose of repression and stiff upper lip child-rearing and it's not remotely surprising to me that they don't say it...

 

Oh yes I forgot about that.  Yeah I just assume the whole love thing exists and is understood amongst them.

 

I just don't think formal declarations of 'I love you' need to be said to confirm that at minimum, deep abiding love exists.

 

Totally agree with you that Dean feels he can be more open and vulnerable with Cas. I mean that was pretty clear when he told Cas(ifer) about Amara before he told Sam.  

[NoWillToResist]

Misha just tweeted that they've been picked up for S12. Here's to another year of venting! ;)

Edited March 11, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[Aeryn13]

And probably with Dabb at the helm. He has been horrible this Season when it comes to writing Dean. Episode 2 and the mid-Season-Opener both were Sam-pimp-fests up the wazoo with Dean randomly thrown in. And even back at Comic Con he had nothing to say but pretty much salivating over Sam`s great and exciting new (old) arc. I expect more like that from him in the future. 

 

Also I stand by my floor-licking predictions. They have shown themselves willing to subject one of their primary actors to demeaning crap like that so why is anyone thinking Dean is exempt from that? Sam, sure, this would never happen as he is their resident Saint but the sidekick isn`t sacrosanct like that.

 

I`m mostly bummed because I had been hanging onto the hope to see Jensen in some better project someday where he is appreciated and the writers actually write for him. Now, realistically, the chances of that are slim. He just waited too long.   

[catrox14]

Jensen is only 38! And he's not a woman so he doesn't have an expiration date. If he spends two more seasons on SPN he'll be 40. That's nothing. Hell, look at JDM? He's what 50 and he's getting more and more work and IMO Jensen is a better actor than JDM.

 

plus Jensen is good friends with David Nutter and other powerful directors. I am not worried at all about Jensen post SPN. I just want him to get recognition for creating an amazing and iconic character with Dean Winchester. 

 

He deserves it. And I really don't care if he got an Emmy for the body of his work as Dean. And if it was sympathy. It still counts. To me, considering what he can do with the shit he's given that's even MORE reason he should get an Emmy nomination. 

[Aeryn13]

I don`t mean the age because I agree it`s different for men, I meant being tied to one show for so long. And a show that just isn`t very good and keeps getting worse. And he will never get an Emmy for it, that I`m 100 % sure of. If that was at all possible, it should have happened many years ago for the better material IMO.  

 

But I realize your experience with the show is different than mine. Hoping and ultimately being disappointed for 11 years is just a long time. Ultimately, I stopped hoping for Jensen to get something from this show and thought it would only happen afterwards in possibly something else. Now, I`m less hopeful about even that. 

[mertensia]

Frankly this could be the best written show in 20 years and it still wouldn't get the awards; it's a genre network show. Look how ignored Hannibal was.

[Diane]

I don`t mean the age because I agree it`s different for men, I meant being tied to one show for so long. And a show that just isn`t very good and keeps getting worse. And he will never get an Emmy for it, that I`m 100 % sure of. If that was at all possible, it should have happened many years ago for the better material IMO.  

 

But I realize your experience with the show is different than mine. Hoping and ultimately being disappointed for 11 years is just a long time. Ultimately, I stopped hoping for Jensen to get something from this show and thought it would only happen afterwards in possibly something else. Now, I`m less hopeful about even that.

I'm sorry but you really should say in my opinion the show isn't very good and keeps getting worse. I don't think that your view is in the majority. Just saying.

[Aeryn13]

Of course what I said comes with the caveat of only being my opinion. Sorry if that was unclear. Ironically, when I say not very good, that didn`t used to mean less enjoyable than other shows that I found technically better written but just meh in terms of viewing experience. Way back when durings Seasons 1, 2 and 4, I thought the show still didn`t have the best writing but a lot going for it to overcome that. Things that in the end made it vastly better than some projects with much critical acclaim and praises. And I did defend it then too.    

[MysteryGuest]

Plenty of actors never win Emmy's, so that's really not a yardstick for me.  I've only been watching the show for a little over 2 years now, so I'm not bored with it.  I still find it entertaining, most of the time.  Do I get annoyed with the writing at times...absolutely.  But in truth, I have that issue with most shows on TV.  I was a fan of Downton Abbey for the first year or so, and then I thought the writers turned it into a complete soap opera and I couldn't watch it anymore.  This show still makes me laugh, I still enjoy the relationships between the characters, and I'm obviously sticking around to see how the season arc is resolved, so it's kept my interest in spite of whatever whining I might do.  I'm on board for another year or two and will be curious to see where they go from here.

[shang yiet]

No, I don't think Jensen is hard done by. He is luckier than 90% of all actors in that he is a lead on an 11-year-old show. Before SPN, where was he?

 

It is his choice to sign up every year. He could have taken the plunge like Shelley Long on Cheers who quit a hit show to make it big in movies and ended up nowhere. There is no guarantee that if he had quit SPN, he would be on some big hit show where the writers are all over him or some blockbuster movie. 

 

It is not an insult he hasn't gotten an Emmy. Plenty of dammed good actors don't get Emmies.

Edited March 12, 2016 by shang yiet

[7kstar]

I am NOT going back and making another list!  I gave up on the last one because no one seemed to care!  

 

;-)

You don't have to make a list, but yes it was cool to see the lists you made.  I don't have the time.  It also showed how even the show is...so thanks for that.

 

90% of actors are on unemployment.  So anyone having a job for 12 years is something to be proud of.  Tom Selleck had a major TV show and then did a few good movies before coming back to TV.  Some actors will never get recognized for their work. 

 

Jensen is doing the show because he loves it.  He gets to play in two fields, directing and acting.  He's even gotten confidence in his singing.  Every season they put out some good shows.  In a TV show run, you should have 4 to 5 great eps, a few more good ones and some that suck.  Supernatural has that IMO. 

 

Although I may wish for something else, now that I'm just watching the show...I'm enjoying it more.  For a little show that shouldn't have stayed it's doing pretty good.  So with it's renewal I get to see another year of eye candy and some stories I like and some I don't.  Sounds like every show I've ever watched.  :)

[rue721]

Cas, in particular, started out as more or less asexual--a totally clueless, truly "inhuman" being, who gradually became more humanized by his contact with the Winchesters.

 

I'm just not feeling Destial, and this is a big reason for it. Cas *isn't human.* He can't even walk around in his "real form" on Earth, because he would blow humans' eyeballs out and kill them with his ~majesty.~ So I have a lot of trouble believing that he would even find humans sexually attractive. Wouldn't it be like me finding my cat sexually attractive? I love my cat "like family" and all, but I'm not trying to bang her. And not just because of my "sexual orientation." LOL.

 

I guess in theory, different (sentient) species could hook up and it wouldn't be bestiality. Like in a Star Wars or Star Trek type of universe, where lots of humanoid species are wondering around.

 

But I would think that the huge obstacle for Dean and Cas wouldn't be that they're both male (or in male bodies, anyway. I don't remember whether angels have genders?), it would be that they're two different, fundamentally incompatible species.

 

Honestly, I feel like Cas is completely shoe-horned in at this point, and Destial is one way for (some) fans to keep feeling like he's relevant. When the show plays up the Destial, like in the S8 Purgatory storyline, I think it's also an attempt to keep Cas relevant.

 

Misha Collins seems like a nice, fun guy who's really great to work with, so I feel bad saying it and understand why they've kept him around -- but I honestly think it's WAY past time for Castiel to be written off the show. The character's journey/story arc is clearly over, imo.

 

I didn't like the first half of S06; didn't like the Campbells or breaking up with Lisa that much. Parts of soulless!Sam I liked. And I adored the Alpha vamp; he oozed menace. But I liked the second half, and I really liked S07.

 

I really loved a lot about S6, especially Soulless!Sam and Dean going nuts in the suburbs. But the Campbells just fell so flat.

 

I actually really liked them in the time-travel episodes, but I guess that was because Samuel, Deana, and Mary were an interesting (imo) family.

 

I also really loved young!Mary in particular. I thought she was a refreshing character, and she worked especially well as a female counterpoint to Dean. I still wish that they would bring her back on the show. I also find it fascinating that she died younger than either Sam or Dean are now. LOL I think my opinions about young!Mary re probably my biggest UOs.

 

Oh, and Crowley?  LOVE HIM.  Legit, LOVE HIM.  I know he's evil. I'm unabashedly a fan.  I generally am a sucker for anyone who "just WANTS TO BE LOVED."

 

Yeah, me, too. He's really grown on me. I used to find him boring, but in the past couple seasons he's become endearing.

 

He's evil and horrible, but his motivations and thought processes make sense to me and aren't inherently evil on their own. Like how he's such a climber and so ambitious, but he's also clueless and clearly relies on stories/fantasies to figure out how kings (or anybody at the tippy-top of the food chain) acts. Or how he's always trying to put together contracts and cut deals. I also like his shitty family (his awful mother and his dumb son). 

 

I've gotten to the point that I genuinely enjoy Crowley. I think Mark Sheppard's performance is a big part of that, so hat's off to him.

 

Jensen is only 38! And he's not a woman so he doesn't have an expiration date. If he spends two more seasons on SPN he'll be 40. That's nothing. Hell, look at JDM? He's what 50 and he's getting more and more work and IMO Jensen is a better actor than JDM.

 

I doubt that Jensen will be exiled from Hwood once Supernatural ends, but I also don't think that fans' ambitions for him are necessarily the same as his own ambitions for himself. Right now, he's got a dependable routine, works with colleagues who he's known forEVER and apparently likes, has a steady and large paycheck coming in year-in-and-year-out...Especially while his family is young, I think it's a pretty ideal situation for him.

 

It's very possible that right now, he'd rather spend his extra time and energy on his wife and kid than on hustling for work, even pretty lucrative or high-profile work. It's very possible that when SPN ends, he'll take some time off to be with his family and enjoy life, and/or just work on passion projects (whether that might be movies or shows or albums or whatever) -- not because he'd be forced into that by The Industry or age or SPN's reputation or anything, but as a CHOICE on his part. I mean, he does have personal agency. 

 

Tbh, given how he seems to have started really enjoying the cons in a different way than before, I think it's possible that post-show, he might be most interested in performing live, whether in theater or by touring as a singer.

 

Anyway, it doesn't make sense to me to pity JA:  from the outside, it seems to me that he's got a great work situation, a great financial situation, a great family, and is in the prime of his life. Compared to all the great stuff he's got going on, whether he has an Emmy or some high profile action movie role or not seems irrelevant to me. YMMV of course.

[MysteryGuest]

Exactly...there are plenty of actors who would give anything to have Jensen's dilemma.  What's great about Supernatural is that these guys do get to stretch themselves by playing other variations of their characters...angels, demons, vampires, shapeshifters, etc...very few cop shows or sitcoms are going to offer them that opportunity.  And they've made a family for themselves with the cast and crew of this show.  I'm sure that plays a big part in their decision.  They've all worked on enough sets to know that this type of situation doesn't happen very often.  I can totally understand why they'd want to stick with this show till the end.

[catrox14]

 

Anyway, it doesn't make sense to me to pity JA:  from the outside, it seems to me that he's got a great work situation, a great financial situation, a great family, and is in the prime of his life. Compared to all the great stuff he's got going on, whether he has an Emmy or some high profile action movie role or not seems irrelevant to me. YMMV of course.

 

Wait, how is wanting Jensen to be recognized for his work tantamount to pitying him or not respecting his personal life and choices? How does one get there from here?  I think he deserves all the success in the world in whatever way he deems it a success.  But that doesn't change the fact that I, objectively, think his work deserves recognition by the industry.  Those are separate things 

[MysteryGuest]

I've read a number of articles that speak to Jensen's abilities as an actor, both dramatic and comedic, so I don't think he's as unknown as people think.  As I said in another thread, if I could be guaranteed that he'd land some great show with exceptional writing, I'd be completely onboard with his moving on from SPN, but there are no such guarantees in Hollywood.  More often than not, actors leave successful shows to pursue other roles and end up disappearing into obscurity.  Not because they're not talented enough, but just because it's such a crap shoot.  These guys are the envy of their peers, so as long as they're still enjoying themselves, and their fans are still enjoying themselves, why mess with a good thing?

[7kstar]

IA agree he deserves a nod.  I know he's happy with what he is doing or he would have left, period.

 

Why doesn't he get the nod...because their is a belief of what that has to look like.  I deal with that every year at contest...which play is the best and how do they decide that with only one judge.

 

This is a fun show, hence the reason it keeps building new fans.  It sparks ideas, and is one of the top shows that people write fanfiction for.  Love it, or hate it...people are talking about it so it has enough of a fan base to keep going.   If they have to spend money to get a nod...don't think that will happen.

 

I think Jensen is like George Lucas from Star Wars.  He has an inner drive, as long as he gets kudos from those he cares about, it doesn't matter about the real award.  That's why I'm talking about what he wants.  That's my impression from his interviews and such.  I don't really know as I don't really know him.  But he's got a lot to be happy about, some people never find half the success he has.

 

Personally I respect his acting chops and look forward to seeing more.  No problem with wanting him to get recognized but many actors will never get recognized.  Some of it is who do you know more than how well you do it.  JMO  :)

[Demented Daisy]

Politics.  Awards are all about politics.  I said it in the other thread -- Supernatural would have to do something truly groundbreaking to get recognized.  By the Emmys or the Golden Globes.  It's not new, it's not fresh, it's not a critical darling.  It's not trying to push the boundaries.  It is steady and safe.

 

I still watch because I am engaged with the characters, despite having issues with the storytelling.  I'm not going to pretend it's a great work of art.  It's escapist, fantasy television -- and there's nothing wrong with that.

[amensisterfriend]

Another really unpopular opinion: I honestly think the woman who Dean had the most chemistry with is Tessa. Yes...the reaper :) But IM(U)O he even had more chemistry with Carmen (What is and Never Should Be), Cassie and Anna than he did with Lisa. And an even more UO...as I've rewatched, I've developed a grudging fondness for his dynamic with Jo. I'm glad they never got together, but I've actually come to like Jo. And I like Dean's primarily brotherly behavior towards her. 

[catrox14]

Another really unpopular opinion: I honestly think the woman who Dean had the most chemistry with is Tessa. Yes...the reaper :) But IM(U)O he even had more chemistry with Carmen (What is and Never Should Be), Cassie and Anna than he did with Lisa. And an even more UO...as I've rewatched, I've developed a grudging fondness for his dynamic with Jo. I'm glad they never got together, but I've actually come to like Jo. And I like Dean's primarily brotherly behavior towards her.

I agree about Tessa but I don't think that's a UO that much. My head! Canon is that Deans special connection with her is/was because she was/is his Designated Reaper since IMO Dean was going to go with her until Azazel possessed her and Dean himself has said she was the thing that was missing from him.

I also have recently developed a new head!Canon that only Tessa or Death could reap Dean. And now that both are dead only Amara can kill him but she won't let him die for... Her own reasons.

[Demented Daisy]

Sam is Superman; Dean is Batman.  

 

Sam is Luke Skywalker; Dean is Han Solo.

 

ETA  Sam is the Flash; Dean is the Arrow.

 

In a universe full of characters who have "powers", Dean being the only human who still fights makes him special.  So why do people want him to have powers?  It makes him like everyone else.  I don't get it.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Aeryn13]

Apart from the occasional team-up movie or crossover episode, those characters - minus Luke and Han - inhabit their own distinct landscapes. And unless you give the non-superpowered character either a plot-related superpower of their own or downgrade the super-character temporarily, they can`t inhabit the same playing field. Noone needs to see Batman vs. Superman to know that Batman most likely gets his hand on Kryptonite or something, otherwise the "vs" part is pretty much ludicrous. 

 

The Flash would have a ridiculously easy time with the Arrow`s usual adversaries. Meanwhile the same is not true. Because the Flash has superpowered enemies who would pulverize the Arrow.

 

Star Wars is the story of Luke and Han can be as popular as he want, he is the more expendable sidekick storywise. You could give him - barely by the 3rd movie - plot relevancy for 3 movies but that was about it. If, for story reasons, you would have to cut a character out of the two, it wouldn`t be Luke because then your story keels over.

 

Having no powers in a world where pretty much every other player does makes a character non-integral. What can they bring? Angst and emo? Hand-wringing? Sandwich-making? Driving the car? It`s more like Batman and Alfred. And not to diss Alfred but he is the butler and helper. ,For an action-adventure show, that`s really the marker of a non-dynamic character IMO. 

 

Sam having powers gave us scenes like Sam defeating Samhain while Dean stood around, Sam defeating Famine while Dean stood around, Sam defeating Alistair while Dean...was slumped on the ground. That is the reality of it. That is even the excuse they gave for Cas` revolving door-treatment, that it would make things too easy.  

 

Sure, such a character may occasionally get the save but frankly, I want more than basically a pity-fuck here and there for Dean. I want him to be relevant in the big battles. And not with freaking emo and helper jobs. That is good for tertiary characters and all. 

[Demented Daisy]

Shockingly, I disagree.  Two words:  Justice League.  Batman, despite having no powers, is a very valuable member of the team.  They don't make him stay behind at the Hall of Justice when evil threatens the world, do they?  (That used to be Wonder Woman's role, when she was no more than a secretary.  Seriously.)

 

Considering how few Jedi are left in the galaxy, Luke is the odd man out there.  In the first movie, he's as ineffectual as Han.  In the end, they share in the destruction of the Death Star.  In Empire, Luke had to be rescued by Leia and Chewie (after an act of self-sacrifice by Han -- they all would have died and Han still would have been taken by Boba Fett if they had tried to fight).  It's only in Jedi that Luke's plans start working.  Which makes sense because he was in training for most of the two previous movies.  Han has years and years of experience to draw from, which is why they were able to improvise on the forest moon of Endor.  Luke's journey was personal in Jedi while Han's was about saving the galaxy.  They both serve the narrative of the movies.

 

Azazel.  Ruby.  Dick Roman.  Abbadon.  Cain.  These are not "pity fucks" and I'm kind of angry that you would even suggest such a thing.  Why do you insist on ignoring Dean's successes?  

 

A few pages back I posted Dean's total kills and saves.

 

84 kills.  92 saves.

 

That's the number of episodes, not the total number of monsters killed and people saved.  That number would be much, much higher.

 

But I suspect that still wouldn't be good enough.

[DittyDotDot]

The Flash would have a ridiculously easy time with the Arrow`s usual adversaries. Meanwhile the same is not true. Because the Flash has superpowered enemies who would pulverize the Arrow.

 

Both Arrow and The Flash have crossed over, I didn't see Green Arrow pulverized or The Flash having a walk in the park.

 

IMO, Dean has never needed--or wanted--superpowers to get the job done, so I have no desire to see him have any, myself.

[Aeryn13]

 

Luke's journey was personal in Jedi while Han's was about saving the galaxy.  They both serve the narrative of the movies.

 

They have a function in the movies but the story itself as it is just does not work without Luke in the OT. You could argue that you could transfer it to Leia as the other Skywalker sibling but that does require a bit of tailoring. Transfering it to Han is out of the question. For me Han is and always will be a sidekick as far as I`m concerned. I like him but that is how I see it. Which is why I always hated that particular Star Wars comparism. Same as comparisms to Xander on Buffy. It is exactly the character type that is not good enough for me for Dean.

 

If it was at least Prequel (I know I know) Obi Wan to Anakin, that takes some of the sting out.

 

 

Azazel.  Ruby.  Dick Roman.  Abbadon.  Cain.  These are not "pity fucks" and I'm kind of angry that you would even suggest such a thing.  Why do you insist on ignoring Dean's successes?

 

He had supernatural powers for the Abaddon and Cain kills. You could say his and Cain cancelled each other out but Dean was supernaturally altered during that time. And what did we have in those moments? Sam who shockingly wasn`t supernaturally special for the first time and didn`t have something wrong with him had to stand outside the door while Dean got the big scenes. Which after 9 years of waiting I loved.

 

But apparently we`re going back to the status quo I hated now. Not even keep them both human, no just Dean. Out of the arc and in Sam`s orbit. Great, it`s not like I didn`t get years of that already. I know the exact time my patience with that construct ran out. It was when Ruby said "it`s all about you" to Sam in early Season 3. That is when I had enough of that. 8 years ago.  

 

The "you are special, human" in this particular show just reminds me of Season 8 where Dean gets a little speech on how great a hunter he is and how much lore he knows and the trials then go to Sam. Because Dean the great hunter had to be rescued. Then for the next two episodes knows nothing about lore. His "contribution" to the trials is hand-wringing and ice-bath drawing.

 

For the second trial, Sam tells him to stay home. Next shot is Dean in the kitchen. And sure, he sends Benny but the Bobby in Sam`s head aka writer mouthpiece  in the Season 9 Premiere tells him explicitely how Dean had nothing to do with saving him. Third trial? Crowley points out how Dean signing the contract means nothing, just Sam. Then for the actual trial Dean is sent to a bar with Cas. When Cas` own story picks up, Dean is sent back to Sam. Like the kid none of the working parents have time for.

 

This is the template for writing the "just human" IMO. I hated that entire span of episodes. It was painful to watch Dean in them. Outright painful. I could see nothing special about it. A bit of condescending lip-service to how supposedly he is so great and then the show is anything but?     

 

 

             Both Arrow and The Flash have crossed over, I didn't see Green Arrow pulverized or The Flash having a walk in the park.

 

Oliver never went up directly against a meta-human where the team told him through his earpiece that he just needed to run at x amount of speed to create a vortex counteracting the physical phenomenon the meta just cooked up. For obvious reasons. 

 

Meanwhile I remember how Arrow and team were captured in Nanda Parbat a couple times. Barry super-speeded in on Oliver`s behest, dealt with all the League members there and freed the team.

 

That is what I mean.  

 

In the end, I don`t see what the big crime is in wishing for my favourite character that he gets a real supernatural storyline with possibly supernatural powers all to himself in a genre show like that. He is my only point of interest these days so if he is getting nothing that interests me (which neither emo and/or so-called soulsearching nor fretting about Sam does in the slightest) - like a lot of this Season - why would I not want this to change?  

Edited March 22, 2016 by Aeryn13

[ahrtee]

I can see both sides of the argument.  Personally, I think a purely-human battling against overwhelming odds is much more heroic than someone with superpowers.

 

Having said that, when two people are supposed to be equal partners in fighting crime/monsters/evil overlords, I would prefer *both* partners to be equal: either both super-powered or (my preference), neither.  If one has more power than the other, the tendency is to make him/her/it more important to the story; and yes, sometimes that means that the unpowered one acts as the anchor/support rather than the hero who wins the day.  And as an adult, I know the importance of support, but can also understand the frustration of watching someone else get the glory, even though they couldn't have done it *without* the support.  Even in team sports, the one who scores the final point in a tight battle wins the honors, even if the rest of the team did most of the work getting them to that point.  And if there's a "superstar" player, the rest of the team tend to disappear into the background. 

 

I think in previous seasons they avoided this by having Sam's powers be suspect, if not outright evil, so there was always a "should I or shouldn't I" feeling about using them.  IMO, if they now make it something Sam can use to help win battles, then, yes, it *does* make Dean less important, and they'll have to come up with reasons why Sam *can't* use them every time, or he'll become the deus-ex-machina they didn't want Cas to be.   

 

So I guess what I'm saying is:  no, I don't want either of them to have powers, mostly because I want to see them fighting together against the odds, not winning because of some special power.  I think both brothers are heroes, and want to see them fighting as equals.  

 

[DittyDotDot]

Oliver never went up directly against a meta-human where the team told him through his earpiece that he just needed to run at x amount of speed to create a vortex counteracting the physical phenomenon the meta just cooked up. For obvious reasons. 

 

Of course Team Arrow didn't handle the situation the same as Team Flash; Oliver did it his way and didn't need superpowers to get it done. A win is a win, in my book.

[Aeryn13]

 

Of course Team Arrow didn't handle the situation the same as Team Flash; Oliver did it his way and didn't need superpowers to get it done. A win is a win, in my book.

 

But Oliver wouldn`t win when faced with such an enemy. Whereas Barry could. Unless you would give the Arrow convenient superpowers himself for that moment or took the powers of his enemy away. His skills mean nothing in the face of someone with a particular set of powers. Joe is a good police officer. Doesn`t mean he doesn`t get regularly knocked around and Barry has to save the day. Batman is skilled and experienced and super-cool but Superman in all honesty could swat him away like a fly. Anything else is just silly. Unless Batman holds kryptonite. In which case, he can beat Supes. Of course an old lady with kryptonite can beat Supes.   

   

Lets say with have a situation where Dean and Sam have to go weaponless against multiple demons in close quarter and Sam has his powers whereas Dean is just a human. In 100 out of 100 scenarios Sam can save the day with his powers. Even alone. Dean just has nothing to even that out. You can say all day how brave he is to be in that fight without powers but that doesn`t mean I wouldn`t find it disheartening to watch.

 

Sure, maybe you could write a mere human among powered folks as special instead of - often - boring and superflouus. But this show has given me no indication that it can do that. They couldn`t even write for Dean in a satisfying manner when he WAS supernaturally special. Though at least then they had a harder part leaving him out of the story completely. Now, even that little reprieve seems gone.

 

All in all, I have a hard time thinking of a show where in the mixture of human and special, I`d say the human character is consistently written as relevant. Maybe Stiles on Teen Wolf by sheer accident. 

[Demented Daisy]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.  Because with the stats I've compiled and posted, plus his role as the heart and soul and backbone of Team Free Will, I will never consider Dean "irrelevant".

 

ETA  I know you're talking about knives and guns and whatnot, but with decades of knowledge and experience at his disposal, Dean would never be "weaponless".

Edited March 22, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[AwesomO4000]

Sam having powers gave us scenes like Sam defeating Samhain while Dean stood around, Sam defeating Famine while Dean stood around, Sam defeating Alistair while Dean...was slumped on the ground. That is the reality of it.

 

All of those happened in season 4 and season 5, the only two seasons where Sam's "powers" were involved in defeating a major bad that I recall (Lucifer and Michael also happened in season 5).

 

But Sam having "powers" also gave us Sam helpless while Azazel harmed Dean (John saved Dean from being killed), Sam lying on the ground in the distance while Dean killed Azazel, Sam lying on the floor helpless while Dean singlehandedly killed Zachariah (a rather high up in the hierarchy angel), and Sam running in after the fact while Dean killed Dick Roman - all of those last 3 wins were when Dean was human - no powers.

 

Then when Dean had powers, we had Sam wandering ineffectually in the basement until he ran in after the fact to watch Dean kill Abaddon, Sam unconscious while Dean fought and distracted Metatron*, until he came running in after the fact (I see a pattern here) in time to see Dean mortally wounded, and I don't remember where Sam was when Dean killed Cain, but it was likely either lying on the ground, absent, or running in after the fact.

 

These span many of the seasons of the show, not just two. So I agree with Demented Daisy that these are not just an obligatory pity kill here and there for Dean. It's a pretty consistent occurrence throughout the run of the show.

 

* Which was not incidental, as far as I remember. It was part of a plan between Dean and Castiel. Sam was apparently not needed for the success of the plan, and so was summarily left unconscious.

 

He had supernatural powers for the Abaddon and Cain kills. You could say his and Cain cancelled each other out but Dean was supernaturally altered during that time. And what did we have in those moments? Sam who shockingly wasn`t supernaturally special for the first time and didn`t have something wrong with him had to stand outside the door while Dean got the big scenes. Which after 9 years of waiting I loved.

 

Except that during this time, there was no human "win" for Sam, not really. Sam didn't get an Azazel, Zachariah, or Dick Roman level kill like Dean did. Instead, he got to fail to save Dean from getting killed and screw up and start an apocalypse. He did de-demon Dean, but that lasted all of maybe an episode or two before it was basically irrelevant.

 

So Dean has gotten to kill (multiple) big bads while both being a regular human and having powers. Unless I'm forgetting something, the same can't be said for Sam.

 

The "you are special, human" in this particular show just reminds me of Season 8 where Dean gets a little speech on how great a hunter he is and how much lore he knows and the trials then go to Sam.

 

And Sam with the supposed trial "powers" accomplished what exactly? A big old nothing - except maybe helping to accidentally cause Abaddon to escape... and Dean was the one to take care of that. The only thing Sam killed that entire season on his own was the hellhound while Dean had 7 (including 4 purgatory ones), so the "powers" didn't help there. And then the only thing Sam killed on his own in season 9 was one demon and he shared one joint kill episode (in contrast, "powered" Dean had 9 solo kill episodes). Season 10 had a few more for Sam, but it was still about 1/3 of powered up Dean's numbers.

 

In contrast, Dean had 3 solo kill episodes to Sam's 5 in season 4 (arguably the height of Sam's "powers") and the same number of solo kill episodes as Sam in season 5: 5 each. So human Dean with no "power" is arguably almost as effective as a Sam with "power" while the reverse is not the case.

 

Edited to add: The above numbers are from Demented Daisy's research efforts. I needed to give credit where credit is due.

Edited March 22, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

plus his role as the heart and soul and backbone of Team Free Will

 

And I think therein lies a big difference because whenever a character`s role or purpose is described as "heart and soul", I can only hope that they are not the ones I`m invested in because that`s kinda translates to "irrelevant" for me when I watch.

 

Don`t know if anyone watches Vampire Diaries (was actually good during parts of Season 1 and Season 2, now it`s a travesty) but after making most of the erstwhile human characters supernatural over its run, it has one lone human named Matt Donovan. In lieu of contributing much else, you could say he provides heart/soul/moral compass etc stuff. And he was always super-boring and irrelevant to me. There were all these characters with these fantastical (not always fantastic) plots and he was basically...symbolizing humanity. I would have cut him from the show in a heartbeat.

 

 

ETA  I know you're talking about knives and guns and whatnot, but with decades of knowledge and experience at his disposal, Dean would never be "weaponless".

 

For me it`s like Indiana Jones vs. the Sword guy in Raiders. If Indy was a superpowered character and the sword guy was a skilled warriror. The scene where he wields his blade around all fancy and Indy just shrugs and shoots him on the spot to save time is a funny and beloved iconic moment but it is basically how I see those situations. Unless the writers do ridiculous gymnastics to give the non-supes a chance.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

 

In a universe full of characters who have "powers", Dean being the only human who still fights makes him special.  So why do people want him to have powers?  It makes him like everyone else.  I don't get it.

 

I don't think the idea or desire that some viewers have to see Dean use some supernatural power(s) occasionally  is something pulled out of the collective ass for no reason or is such an affront to Dean's humanity.  I don't think most viewers think Sam is less human than Dean because he was dosed with demon blood as a kid.  I mean I certainly don't. 

 

Aside from that the show itself took Dean in those directions and planted seeds with the Righteous Man, Michael's Chosen Vessel , Mark of Cain and demon!Dean. Heaven forfend  some viewers want those seeds to reach their implied trajectory at the outset of the arc.

 

Demon!Dean is the worst offender in the writers bait and switch IMO. 

 

I never wanted Dean to be turned into a demon. I wasn't sure I could keep watching the show because of what they did to Dean. I've never wanted to rage-quit a show more in my life (and I'm a LOST, BSG, Angel-fan) and nearly did.  As the hiatus wore on, I decided to read spoilers and watch interviews with Jensen about playing Demon!Dean. I figured if, Jensen, who probably loves Dean more than anyone on the planet and is highly protective of him, is not just PR spinning it on a basic level but seems genuinely excited to do it, then I'll give it a chance.

 

Hell we didn't even SEE demon!Dean until Sam did in Black. We opened with what Sam was going to be doing in s10 to save Dean. Right then and there I thought oh boy...this isn't going to be about Dean at all...this is Sam's redemption for not looking for Dean in s8.

 

Once we meet demon!Dean, I was thinking WTF is the point of this? Dean is not THAT scary and he's being manipulated by Crowley. So WTF show, you kill Dean Winchester, turn him into his worst nightmare....for THIS? For Dean on steroids? WHY?? I was considering rage quitting again...

 

Then Reichenbach happened...and it really took the turn that demon!Dean was VERY different than regular!Dean. I found him terrifying in his confrontation with Crowley. I mean Crowley was afraid of demon!Dean. Seeing Dean heal himself was cool and l thought maybe we'll see him teleport or do the flinging across the room thing so that at MINIMUM Dean's murder and resurrection as a demon has a POINT. I remember thinking " OKAY Here we go!" this is setting up demon!Dean being against Crowley for a small arc.  I thought Sam would take 3 or 4 episodes at least to find Dean and then we'd have that confrontation.

 

But NOPE he's captured in two episodes. And there is the demon blood cure. but "NO LOOK Dean got out of the devil's trap! OK  more awesomeness because demon!Dean is on the loose again, if slightly depowered." 

 

But NOPE he's recaptured and cured of being a demon...and FOR WHAT? It was a bait and switch yet again. It accomplished NOTHING for Dean's characterization that I can discern. He still had the MoC. But what it did do was give Sam his redemption and make us worry about Sam because he got someone to sell his soul to save Dean.

 

Yeah, so for me, if I can get a minute of Dean saving someone by using a power for a hot minute....I would feel like I wasn't totally bait and switched...AGAIN.

[catrox14]

Of course Team Arrow didn't handle the situation the same as Team Flash; Oliver did it his way and didn't need superpowers to get it done. A win is a win, in my book.

 

Don't even get me started on what Arrow did to Oliver in s3 and carried into s4.  They reduced Oliver to being a poor fighter and braindead dolt for plot and character propping with the most convoluted stupid ass plot in history.

[catrox14]

 

But Sam having "powers" also gave us Sam helpless while Azazel harmed Dean (John saved Dean from being killed), Sam lying on the ground in the distance while Dean killed Azazel, Sam lying on the floor helpless while Dean singlehandedly killed Zachariah (a rather high up in the hierarchy angel), and Sam running in after the fact while Dean killed Dick Roman - all of those last 3 wins were when Dean was human - no powers.

 

To me, Dean killing Azazel was not a matter of  Sam being helpless. I always thought Sam was trying to NOT use his powers back then. That he didn't want to give into being different IIRC. He had just finished telling Jake that they could go against Azazel together without using powers. Sam had also just been resurrected after Dean's deal, so I'm not sure if Sam could have used his powers in that moment. Maybe if Sam had been practicing using his powers I would have been more annoyed.    

 

I don't have an issue with Dean killing Zachariah since Dean got being Michael's sword taken away from him in that episode, stabbing Zachariah in his face was fair exchange for losing the entire arc that had been built up for like a season and a half. Dean vowed in s4 that he would kill Zachariah. That was symmetry.  I would have been pissed if Dean didn't get that kill. Didn't Dean also promise to kill Azazel originally? I can't quite remember. 

 

Didn't Sam get there just too late to kill Dick Roman because he was busy trying to save Kevin? Or am I misremembering? So he saved the Prophet but didn't kill the Big Dick.  I think that's fairly even. JMHO

[Demented Daisy]

And I think therein lies a big difference because whenever a character`s role or purpose is described as "heart and soul", I can only hope that they are not the ones I`m invested in because that`s kinda translates to "irrelevant" for me when I watch.

 

The most important part of the bit you quoted was the word "plus".  Dean's role is not, nor has it ever been, just heart and soul.  At no time did I imply any such thing.  If that's the way you see his role, then that's your hang up.  But it is not what I said.  I also notice you left out the "backbone" bit -- I included that because it shows that Dean is also the core strength of Team Free Will.

 

 

I don't think the idea or desire that some viewers have to see Dean use some supernatural power(s) occasionally  is something pulled out of the collective ass for no reason or is such an affront to Dean's humanity.

 

 

What?  I know where the idea came from.  I just don't happen to agree with it.

 

However, now that you mention it, I will say that making Dean a demon is definitely an affront to his humanity, IMO.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

In the end, I don`t see what the big crime is in wishing for my favourite character that he gets a real supernatural storyline with possibly supernatural powers all to himself in a genre show like that. He is my only point of interest these days so if he is getting nothing that interests me (which neither emo and/or so-called soulsearching nor fretting about Sam does in the slightest) - like a lot of this Season - why would I not want this to change?  

 

There is no big crime in wishing for this; nor should it be a crime to hope Dean Winchester never changes.

 

I like Dean Winchester just as he is: a good man who fights the good fight despite the odds being stacked against him. IMO, he doesn't need superpowers and he certainly never wanted them; so I'm not wishing them on him. But that's me.

 

Stay classy, Dean.

[Aeryn13]

 

Dean's role is not, nor has it ever been, just heart and soul.  At no time did I imply any such thing.  If that's the way you see his role, then that's your hang up.

 

To be honest, I struggle with what his role is. Ben Edlund once described it as "chauffeur of destiny". I don`t like it but I can`t argue with it either. He is not the Chosen One at the center of the plot for the most part. Mostly he is reacting to that, revolving around that and providing helper jobs.  

 

The show doesn`t have a clear dichotomy of brain/brawn per se. Not that this in itself ins`t overly simplistic but say Stargate had Sheppard and McKay as soldier/warrior and scientist. Sheppard wasn`t dumb by any means and McKay could be brave but by and large each character had a distinct turf. Sam is portrayed as the brain but still gets enough brawn scenes whereas Dean gets an occassional brain scene. But he is not the "warrior" character by himself.  .  

 

One role most often attributed to him is goofy comic relief. Not my favourite. And not all encompassing. 

 

But overall a lot of my dissatisfaction comes from Dean not having a more clearly defined role as his own person.

 

 

I also notice you left out the "backbone" bit -- I included that because it shows that Dean is also the core strength of Team Free Will.

 

I didn`t leave it out on purpose because mainly I group heart/soul/backbone somewhat together under the banner of "wind beneath the other`s wings". 

 

 

I like Dean Winchester just as he is: a good man who fights the good fight despite the odds being stacked against him.

 

Don`t misunderstand me, I like him as well and I could even be happy with what he is if he was transported into a show where I felt who/what he is was appreciated, acknowledged and supported by much better writing. So my I want his surroundings to change.

 

If Dean Winchester, just human, was put into a show/story where the writers wrote interesting stuff for him and I didn`t continouusly feel as if he was mocked, trashed and belittled at almost every turn, then I can take or leave superpowers. It`s just that in the show he is in, he needs every scrap he can get. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Demented Daisy]

Genuine question here, because I'm trying to understand.  No snark, no "gotcha".

 

How does giving Dean special powers change his character?  His characterization?

 

How would you want Dean's character to change if he was given special powers?

 

I'm not talking about seeing Dean be a bigger bad ass or take down more monsters or save more people.  (Though that's a good enough reason, I suppose.  But not why I watch the show.)  I'm talking about who he is, down to his core -- how would you want to see that affected by Dean gaining powers?

[Aeryn13]

I assume he would be freaked out by it, at least initially. But that is a hard question for me to answer because I never really gave that much thought. My main angle is to see him at the center of interesting supernatural plots and scenes. Who he is as a person need not really be affected by that.

 

In terms of characterization my wish for him has always been to gain more confidence and self worth and don`t be a doormat to family. But I think if he has the or at least a main plot that is given due consideration, there are by nature less scenes like that of fretting and hand-wringing that just don`t interest me and more of the character pondering new things. One kinda follows the other.

 

But overall, I am just more interested in that kinda stuff: plot, badassery, heroics. They`ve wrung so many emo scenes from the character and navel gazing that those can barely hold my interest. If Jensen didn`t perform those scenes, I just would have no reason to even glimpse at the screen so little does the subject matter affect me these days. So any and all kind of "how Dean feels about..."  or "how Dean struggles with..." spoilers depress me. 

 

This will probably sound incredibly shallow but if Dean stayed roughly the Dean we know and just had cool powers or at least a cool Dean-centric supernatural storyline, I`d be perfectly fine with it.

[Demented Daisy]

Fair enough.

[AwesomO4000]

Yeah, so for me, if I can get a minute of Dean saving someone by using a power for a hot minute....I would feel like I wasn't totally bait and switched...AGAIN.

 

And this is something I might've wanted to see, too, except for one - for me - important detail...

 

With how Carver has things set up, Dean is already - in my opinion only perhaps - way above Sam in terms of non-emotional story arc and relevance. They haven't been on equal grounds as a team in a long time. Look at my numbers (from Demented Daisy's research) in my above post. Back when Sam had his "powers," Dean, even though human, contributed a bunch - in my opinion - to the heroics. As I stated above, he had 2 major kills during the first 5 seasons, and one in season 7 - while being human. And his general hunting numbers were very similar to Sam's for the most part, even during Sam's big "power" seasons.

 

Sam, in contrast, since the Carver years and Dean getting powers, has not killed or even been involved with the defeat of any recurring bad guys that I can recall. Not a one in 3 1/2 seasons. And his other kills have tanked as well. Season 8 was okay, I guess - Sam had 8 total kill episodes (though in only one episode - the hellhound one - was Sam the only one with a kill) - but in season 9 and 10 (46 episodes), Sam had a total of 7 episodes where he killed anything at all (Dean's total for season 9 - 10 was 22 episodes where he killed something, usually multiple somethings). At the same time in the Carver years, Sam failed to look for Dean and Kevin, gave up hunting (basically saying "not my problem anymore"), failed to complete the trials, failed to save Dean from being killed and becoming a demon, and started an apocalypse. Oh, and he also made it possible for Lucifer to escape because Dean and Castiel had to come save him from yet another mistake on his part. Maybe it's just me, but that's a bit disheartening. It's certainly no killing Azazel or Zachariah or Dick Roman contribution to the story arc.

 

So what is Carver's message here? Is it that unless Sam has "powers" he's basically a second rate hunter and a screw up? Because in some ways, that's what the numbers and the arcs presented are saying to me... and if Sam needs to have "powers" to be in the upcoming fight, then that's just going to be enforcing that kind of thing for me.

 

To me, Dean killing Azazel was not a matter of  Sam being helpless. I always thought Sam was trying to NOT use his powers back then. That he didn't want to give into being different IIRC. He had just finished telling Jake that they could go against Azazel together without using powers.

 

In "Devil's Trap" Sam was trying to use his powers to save Dean, trying to get the Colt to come to him - Azazel (YED then) was actually mocking his attempt. So unfortunately there, Sam did try to use his powers and failed, and then - according to John anyway - Sam also failed to kill YED when he had the chance. In "All Hell..., pt 2" Sam didn't mention not using powers directly. He just told Jake not to give in to what YED wanted (them trying to kill each other) and that they could kill YED together. He didn't qualify how they would do that.

 

Didn't Dean also promise to kill Azazel originally? I can't quite remember.

 

That was actually retroactive - and awesome in my opinion. It was in "In the Beginning" where Dean told Azazel that he would be the one to kill him. And the fact that that episode was heavily associated with Mary is why for me, I generally count YED's arc as somewhat separate from the Lucifer arc. Yes, YED's ultimate goal was to raise Lucifer, but he also had his own goals and his own ties with the Winchesters beyond that, and Dean killing YED "for our Mom" was part of that for me.

 

Dean vowed in s4 that he would kill Zachariah. That was symmetry.  I would have been pissed if Dean didn't get that kill.

 

I agree.

 

Didn't Sam get there just too late to kill Dick Roman because he was busy trying to save Kevin? Or am I misremembering? So he saved the Prophet but didn't kill the Big Dick.  I think that's fairly even. JMHO

 

No, Sam did find Kevin and save him, so you are right there. Sam was actually late because Kevin talked him into supposedly blowing up the lab to destroy the leviathan's tainted artificial sweetener cache. Too bad we couldn't have seen at least a hint of that - it would've at least been a badass moment for Sam. Maybe it's because Sam's part there happened offscreen that Dean's Dick Roman kill seemed so much more flashy... I also might be being influenced by what happened afterwards... in that Dean's resulting purgatory arc seemed quite a bit more flashy (in my opinion) than Sam's Amelia arc.

 

And in no way do I begrudge Dean Dick Roman's kill either. In fact, I thought it was exactly what should have happened. Dean told Dick Roman in "Death's Door" that he was going to kill him... and so he did. After working very hard towards that goal. So I wasn't in any way suggesting Dean shouldn't have that kill.

 

My point in mentioning it above was that Dean killed Dick Roman without any powers, just like he did Azazel and Zachariah. And again all good, and all what should have happened, in my opinion. The main thing that I was trying to get across was that if Dean can do that, have those big bad kills with no powers and just being Dean, what's wrong with Sam having a little of the same consideration when Dean has the powers instead of having Sam shown ditching responsibility and abandoning Kevin (and Dean), being a Samsel in distress, or starting an apocalypse? It doesn't even have to be a big bad kill, just one recurring player might be nice.

 

I'd like to see Sam have a success - almost any success - without having to resort to powers or thinking he needs help from a higher power to do it. And I don't think that's too much to ask for for Sam's arc.

[catrox14]

 

In a universe full of characters who have "powers", Dean being the only human who still fights makes him special.  So why do people want him to have powers?  It makes him like everyone else.  I don't get it.

 

What?  I know where the idea came from.  I just don't happen to agree with it.

 

However, now that you mention it, I will say that making Dean a demon is definitely an affront to his humanity, IMO.

 

Okay, I guess I'm confused. My response was a legitimate attempt to answer what I thought was a genuine question in your original comment. Was your original question really just rhetorical?

[Demented Daisy]

Okay, I guess I'm confused. My response was a legitimate attempt to answer what I thought was a genuine question in your original comment. Was your original question really just rhetorical?

 

No, it was genuine.  But your response told me nothing about why you would want it for Dean's character.  That's what I really want to know, which is why I later clarified my question.

Aside from that the show itself took Dean in those directions and planted seeds with the Righteous Man, Michael's Chosen Vessel , Mark of Cain and demon!Dean. Heaven forfend  some viewers want those seeds to reach their implied trajectory at the outset of the arc.

 

 

This tells me only that you want the show to follow through on what you believe to be a certain trajectory.  Then you explain about the bait-and-switch, but you still don't explain why you want to see it.  What will it do for Dean?  How will it change him?  

 

That's what I want to know.

[catrox14]

 

How does giving Dean special powers change his character?  His characterization?

 

How would you want Dean's character to change if he was given special powers?

 

 

I'll answer with a question back to you.  Not being snarky either. 

 

Why does Dean having a temporary boost of supernatural powers mean it has to change his characterization permanently?

 

They can be mutually exclusive things. 

 

Upon further review I think Dean being a demon could still serve his characterization now.

 

Dean didn't want to be beholden to ANYONE. He wanted his freedom and to live they way he wanted to live. It's kind of sad that it took being a demon for Dean to have that moment.

 

But to me the question is still "When the dust settles and Dean is no longer a demon; what comes of it FOR Dean."  

 

Dean refused to make a choice when Crowley told him to pick a side, human or Demon ("PICK A BLOODY SIDE!!!"). Then later we see Dean slice his own hand and watch it heal, hearing Crowley tell him again to pick a bloody side whilst playing Hey Jude which was Mary's song. 

 

Unless I've missed something big, we still don't know anything about what Dean being a demon meant to Dean out of Dean's mouth. Hearing him say "I can't be that thing again." was about the deepest it went. But we also know that Dean did not want to be cured.  It seems to me if Dean wanted to be a human again, he would have just gone back to Sam and asked Sam to cure him.  But Dean didn't want to do that. WHY? I don't think it's just because Dean wanted to be drunk, sing karoake and sleep around.   Cas made his opinion known but I want to hear from Dean what it was for him.

 

As to what it could do for Dean NOW, IMO the aspect of Demon Dean that wouldn't let anyone pigeonhole him, or put him in a category or make him choose human or demon could be used to help regular!Dean find that better balance between saving people, hunting things, Saving Sam or Cas at all costs and learning to have healthier attachments and DE-tachments without the crushing guilt he has now.

 

JMHO

Edited March 23, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

I'll answer with a question back to you.  Not being snarky either. 

 

Why does Dean having a temporary boost of supernatural powers mean it has to change his characterization permanently?

 

They can be mutually exclusive things. 

 

Not in good storytelling.  Everything that a character does, everything that happens to him, should affect the character.  Otherwise, it is meaningless.  You said it yourself:

 

 

But NOPE he's recaptured and cured of being a demon...and FOR WHAT? It was a bait and switch yet again. It accomplished NOTHING for Dean's characterization that I can discern. 

 

 

Doesn't that mean that you think that Demon Dean should have done something for his characterization?

 

As for the rest, agree to disagree.

[ahrtee]

Not in good storytelling.  Everything that a character does, everything that happens to him, should affect the character.  Otherwise, it is meaningless.  You said it yourself:

 

 

 

Doesn't that mean that you think that Demon Dean should have done something for his characterization?

 

 

You're right that people/characters should be affected by things that happen to them.  IRL, when bad things happen, some can brush things off/work things out, while others are deeply affected (ranging from simple avoidance to complete breakdown); while most TV/movie characters don't show any effect unless it's important to the story.    However, IRL, even those who are affected don't always show it outwardly.

 

In this case, however, I think Dean's reaction to the MoC, his horror at what he was becoming, was at least in part because of his fear of turning into a demon again, so it *did* affect his character, and Jensen's characterization.