Iris West

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Obviously. It's a storyline that would never be touched if Iris was white. 

Do you really believe this?

I firmly believe this storyline would have happened regardless of Iris' race. However, I do think her race (consciously or subconsciously) played a role in the number of times that they chose to show the audience Iris being murdered and in such a graphic manner. I also think they chose not to have her be wavering in her belief that Barry would save her because they know the level of hatred that Iris gets. Even with all of the sacrifices that Iris makes, pockets of the fandom still claims that she's selfish. It's like she can't win, but I think they take that into account when writing her character. 

For me the issue is that the story was never about Iris, it was about making Barry "pay" for FlashPoint. In fact, when it comes to Barry's speed, he lost both of his parents because of his speedster status. Losing Iris would have been the last person that he could lost in the trio of people that really matter to Barry. Not that Joe and the others don't matter to Barry, but not on the same level as Iris and his parents. 

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

Do you really believe this?

Yes.

Give me one example of a super-hero/fantasy/sci-fi story where any version of the hero, mirror-evil, doppelganger-version or otherwise, murdered the white love of his life to save his own. 

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

For me the issue is that the story was never about Iris, it was about making Barry "pay" for FlashPoint. In fact, when it comes to Barry's speed, he lost both of his parents because of his speedster status. Losing Iris would have been the last person that he could lost in the trio of people that really matter to Barry. 

They could have explored this in a variety of ways without having Barry himself be her murderer. That they did it this way only happened because she was black.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Katsullivan

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

Give me one example of a super-hero/fantasy/sci-fi story where any version of the hero, mirror-evil, doppelganger-version or otherwise, murdered the white love of his life to save his own. 

Okay, but you'll find it a bit obscure.  Hawk and Dove during the Armageddon 2001 comics maxi-series.  The villain, Monarch captured and then murdered Dove, who Hawk loved.  Hawk hunted him down and killed him only to find that Monarch was a future version of himself.  Discovering this he became Monarch.  Dove was a white woman.

Edited March 14, 2018 by johntfs

[johntfs]

4 minutes ago, doram said:

Dove wasn't the love of Hawk's life. 

She was at least a very important love in his life, which is pretty close to that.  Is Iris the love of Barry's love?  Sure.  For now.  Unless Candice Patton leaves the show for some reason.  In which case somebody else will become "the" love of Barry's life. 

[Katsullivan]

17 minutes ago, doram said:

Dove wasn't the love of Hawk's life. 

Whelp. 

[Kate45]

4 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Give me one example of a super-hero/fantasy/sci-fi story where any version of the hero, mirror-evil, doppelganger-version or otherwise, murdered the white love of his life to save his own. 

I don't watch tons of sci-fi so I can't give you examples. I don't think I've ever seen a story quite like this one. Which I guess is your point, but it's hard to say because their are no other sci-fi shows that we can use to compare as this is the only one that has a black female LI. 

I still don't believe the show created the story simply because Iris is black. Clearly,  I'm not saying you have to agree. I just think the story was about Barry possibly losing the three most important people in his life, and Iris is one of those people. Her race didn't matter in that decision, IMO. I truly believe that story would have happened regardless of her race. 

It was about his speed (possibly) taking the most important people away from him.

IMO the execution of the story was very poor, but had it been better executed, it could have been a great storyline. Time travel and trying to change the future? Sign me up. Barry learning that some doppelgängers may not go along with your plan and can become the worst version of yourself? Sounds good to me, but the reveal should have come sooner. 

[Katsullivan]

17 minutes ago, doram said:

When I mean Dove wasn't the love of Hawk's life, I mean they weren't even in a romantic relationship.

Well, why am I not surprised? Given a choice between: an honest discussion about race or throwing up red herrings...

 

2 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I don't think I've ever seen a story quite like this one. Which I guess is your point, but it's hard to say because their are no other sci-fi shows that we can use to compare as this is the only one that has a black female LI. 

Iris being the lone black female LI means that you have over half a century of stories - comics, TV shows, movies to find a white female LI that has a similar storyline. So it should be easy to say to disprove this, not the other way around.

7 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

I still don't believe the show created the story simply because Iris is black. Clearly,  I'm not saying you have to agree. I just think the story was about Barry possibly losing the three most important people in his life, and Iris is one of those people. Her race didn't matter in that decision, IMO. I truly believe that story would have happened regardless of her race. 

It won't have happened in the same way, is my point. Nothing you said is wrong, but neither does anything you said dictate that Iris had to be murdered in the same circumstances she was murdered by Savitar=Barry. Reverse Flash wasn't Barry, even though the name, and Zoom wasn't Barry even though the show tried to cast them in parallel storylines. The showrunners couldn't imagine a storyline where a version of Barry murdered his white parents but they were A-OK with dreaming up one where he murdered his black fiancee?

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

The showrunners couldn't imagine a storyline where a version of Barry murdered his white parents

They actually did imagine and essentially show a version of this at the start of season 3.  In order to restore the timeline that he changed with Flashpoint, Barry brought Thawne back to that moment in his house and allowed him to murder his mother. 

[Katsullivan]

35 minutes ago, doram said:

Quote

They actually did imagine and essentially show a version of this at the start of season 3.  In order to restore the timeline that he changed with Flashpoint, Barry brought Thawne back to that moment in his house and allowed him to murder his mother. 

?

Again, why have an honest discussion about race when we can throw up red herrings instead? 

51 minutes ago, doram said:

One of the theories was that Savitar never actually killed Iris but had faked her death all along.

...Which makes more sense because it's not Iris's death that should motivate Barry to stop Savitar, it's the fear of her death, it's the depths he would go to prevent her death. 

Well that's it right there - it makes sense so of course the Flash writers weren't going to do that. 

52 minutes ago, doram said:

Another theory was that it wasn't even a time-loop at all, but Savitar was Flashpoint!Barry, the version of Barry that Barry had essentially displaced when he created Flashpoint

...Flashpoint!Barry was trying to get back to his timeline and his Iris, and it was a Speedforce version of "one must die for the other to live". 

You mean like Crisis on Earth-X where Red Arrow wanted to kill Supergirl to save his boo, Overgirl? So basically the producers came up with a far less offensive plot line for a 4-episode cross-over for 2 white characters that aren't in the same show --- but over a year-long season couldn't come up with something less offensive for the "Gold Standard" interracial couple on their most popular show?

I am [not] shocked! 

 

Also, I just read a theory of Sara Diggle being Mystery Girl born out of the Speed-force because of Mystical Science, to avenge Barry from erasing her from existence.

Can you imagine how absolutely brilliant it would have been if Sara Diggle had been Savitar instead? If she had been some remainder product of Flashpoint, who got trapped in the speedforce and grew up and grew insane, and broke out of the speedforce to punish Barry for damning her? Can you imagine how much that would resonate emotionally and even make more Mystical Science-sense than what we had? Yet without the offensiveness of watching Iris be murdered over and over again by a version of the man she loved? And hey, look at that - a formidable female Big Bad, since they can't commit to sullying their precious Caity Frost, and cross-over potential and repercussions with Diggle and Lyla. Wow, suddenly Lyla not being gung-ho to help Barry with King Shark actually makes sense and not just another friend being callous and casual about Iris's death for reasons.

36 minutes ago, doram said:

Either way, a bunch of tumblr speculators were able to come up with something more creative, and far less offensive in this storyline than the writers who are paid to draft this "family-friendly" narrative. The fact that no one in the writers's room did a double check and say, "maybe we shouldn't push a storyline where our hero, Scarface version or no, kills the love of his life..." Well that's misogynoir plain and simple.

Nuff said.

[Trini]

20 hours ago, Kate45 said:

I don't watch tons of sci-fi so I can't give you examples. I don't think I've ever seen a story quite like this one. Which I guess is your point, but it's hard to say because their are no other sci-fi shows that we can use to compare as this is the only one that has a black female LI. 

I still don't believe the show created the story simply because Iris is black. Clearly,  I'm not saying you have to agree. I just think the story was about Barry possibly losing the three most important people in his life, and Iris is one of those people. Her race didn't matter in that decision, IMO. I truly believe that story would have happened regardless of her race. 

It was about his speed (possibly) taking the most important people away from him.

IMO the execution of the story was very poor, but had it been better executed, it could have been a great storyline. Time travel and trying to change the future? Sign me up. Barry learning that some doppelgängers may not go along with your plan and can become the worst version of yourself? Sounds good to me, but the reveal should have come sooner. 

I agree. There were definitely problems with the story, but I don't think things were as mean-spirited as it is being made out to be. I think they wanted to (1) do an evil version of Barry as the villain, (2) and to up the stakes, he had to threaten the person closest to him - Iris. (They already killed of his parents, and while Joe is a father figure, he wasn't as important as Iris.)

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I agree. There were definitely problems with the story, but I don't think things were as mean-spirited as it is being made out to be. I think they wanted to (1) do an evil version of Barry as the villain, (2) and to up the stakes, he had to threaten the person closest to him - Iris. (They already killed of his parents, and while Joe is a father figure, he wasn't as important as Iris.)

I think this was more the driving force than anything else.  I think if Iris had been White/Asian/Male whatever, they'd have done this storyline.  Maybe Iris being a Black woman somehow made it an easier sell.  I think for sure it made it easier to make it all about Barry's feelings about losing Iris with almost nothing about Iris's feeling about being brutally murdered.  This last episode was the first time we've ever got to hear Iris reacting to that situation and talk about her feelings during it.  It's probably the most telling sign that Kreisberg is gone.

[adora721]

On 3/12/2018 at 8:30 PM, Kate45 said:

This is a great point. Just to be clear, I think she should have processed it, but I'm not surprised that she didn't. Mostly because no one ever processes anything on this show. Caitlin is running around with split personality, and no one has even suggested that she seek counseling to figure out why this split occurred! Yikes, this show gets psychological issues so wrong. I guess my point is that each of these characters has gone through various levels of trauma, and they just gloss over it. It upsets me, but it is one very consistent action on this show. 

In fact, I am still shocked that they had Iris acknowledge that she was upset that Barry left her. She was, for once, allowed to have feelings. Of course, "fans" have been breathing down her throat and calling for her murder ever since.

I so agree with this! The irony was having Caitlin be the one to tell Iris and Barry to go to counseling. Like, what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You need counseling, Caitlin and Frost. It might have made for some funny moments, too, to have Killer Frost show up to chat with the therapist. But no, they send a relatively mentally sound couple to counseling instead. Now, that's crazy....

[johntfs]

Candice mention in a Twitter post that she wanted a German Shepherd, so I posted this as a suggestion:

I suppose she could have meant the dog breed...

[phoenics]

On 3/14/2018 at 1:39 PM, Katsullivan said:

They also retconned when Barry made the time remnant from before she dies to after she dies, which doesn't even make any kind of thematic sense because it meant that Barry needed her to die first to do "whatever it takes" to stop Savitar, and he deliberately created a time remnant knowing that it would kill Iris. 

 

One small correction:  When Original Timeline Barry created the time remnant, Iris was already dead.  He only created the time remnant then to try to finally stop Savitar, as that's all he had left after she died.  That's why when our Barry went to the Future to find out who Savitar was, Future Barry (the Future version of Original Timeline Barry) didn't know.  He never found out who Savitar was before imprisoning him.

So the writers actually didn't retcon this - Iris was always killed originally before the time remnants were created.  That is what drives Barry so mad with grief that he creates so many time remnants that one manages to survive and becomes Savitar.

It's still a nutsoid storyline - but there wasn't a retcon.

[Katsullivan]

3 hours ago, phoenics said:

When Original Timeline Barry created the time remnant, Iris was already dead.  He only created the time remnant then to try to finally stop Savitar, as that's all he had left after she died.  That's why when our Barry went to the Future to find out who Savitar was, Future Barry (the Future version of Original Timeline Barry) didn't know.  He never found out who Savitar was before imprisoning him.

So the writers actually didn't retcon this - Iris was always killed originally before the time remnants were created. 

It is a retcon. This is the conversation between Barry and Future Barry in 3x19, "Once and Future Flash" - 

 

 

2:30
"... you want answers, Barry? How about this: you'll go back. You'll do everything you can think of to save her. You're even going to create time remnants of yourself but he's just going to kill them all mostly and then on the night of May 23rd iris West will die in your arms. [...] and it will break you [...] There'll be nothing left but stopping Savitar. [....] You won't be there for Joe... for any of them [...] then one day you'll stop him, lock him up in the Speedforce [...] but at that point he'd already won."

The sequence of events is clear:

Create time remnants -> All but one are killed -> Iris dies -> Barry abandons Team Flash -> Barry finally defeats Savitar.

The writers retconned it, so that it would make sense that Barry's discovery of Savitar's true identity didn't just have him go: "whelp, I'm not gonna make time remnants then, that'll do it."

Edited April 3, 2018 by Katsullivan

[Whodunnit]

I just wanna say that Iris and Barry have been adorable this season. Also, Iris is badass as a speedster. Go, Purple Reign!

[Starry]

On 16/5/2018 at 3:04 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Once you watch the episode, I think it'll put things more into context. Iris was downright rude toward Harry. At one point, I feel like she rolled her eyes at Harry's struggles. She snapped at him several times when he was trying to help. She got annoyed when she heard his voice outside her apartment. Then she told him to take off his shoes because he was tracking mud in her home. Iris has never obsessed about these little things or been randomly antagonistic before. Harry wasn't being rude in any way, shape or form. He was trying to be helpful, even with his brain damage. He may have put himself in this new position, but what's done is done and he can't control his actions.

I don't appreciate that the writers are treating Harry's condition as a joke. Given the context and his state, I understand that Iris getting snappy and annoyed at him may be off-putting.

Tracking mud into someone's house is rude though. This is not a matter of "women being bitchy" or "obsessing over little things". It's a matter of guests having some manners. I'm not sure I can excuse that on Harry's condition. Given his newfound empathy, he should know better.

 

On 16/5/2018 at 3:04 PM, Lady Calypso said:

It got better once they found Marlize, of course, but most of the subplot didn't reflect well for Iris. Just like Barry pulling the "I'm going to protect my friends by refusing to train them" arc reflected badly for him (and Caitlin's actions last episode with trying to get KF back). Not that the show is trying to tell me that, but that's how I see it.

Are Barry and Caitlin being called "bitchy"? Their poor treatment of the other characters is getting acknowledged but "bitch" is a term that seems to be reserved for Iris...

 

On 16/5/2018 at 3:04 PM, Lady Calypso said:

And it's simply a pattern with one particular writer. He also wrote the Luck Be a Lady episode, where Iris crashed a funeral with Barry in order to get married (which, while not bitchy, was just odd and not really funny). He wrote the scene where Iris did bitch about the wedding gift from Oliver/Felicity, which is out of character for her. She has never been the type to care about these things and make passive aggressive comments. The writer seems to associate Iris with being petty, which bugs me. I just don't like the pattern. It can make sense in context, but the writer turns it into a "comedic" moment, which ends up falling flat and, for me, completely undermines the character. 

Iris didn't a crash a funeral. She waited until they were done to get married. I agree that she was disrespectful for complimenting the coffin and telling the priest to "walk it off" after he had an allergic reaction. She was acting a little crazy and you may have a point about Sam Chalsen as a writer. He went for humor and disregarded Iris' trauma. Her actions in that episode were a result of what she'd gone through the past year between Savitar and Barry entering the Speed Force. You wouldn't know it by watching the episode though. The focus was on humor and the "bad luck" aspect. The same apparently happened with Harry and his condition in Think Fast.

I will never ever agree that Iris was petty, bitchy and in the wrong for what she said about Oliver and Felicity. I don't even think that was supposed to be a funny moment. Oliver and Felicity were rude. They were disrespectful and deserved to get called out for their lack of tact. Barry was less than enthusiastic about the gift. He was the one to put it in the return pile but I don't see anyone calling him a "bitchy Groomzilla". Is it because fans expect Barry to be petty while Iris is supposed to be the doormat that takes people's rudeness? Maybe that's why people view her as OOC every time she dares have a negative reaction to other characters' rude actions. The writers did an outstanding job in turning Iris into the docile, extremely sweet punching bag that she was in s2 and s3.

[adora721]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

Maybe that's why people view her as OOC every time she dares have a negative reaction to other characters' rude actions.

I read a Tumblr post where one of the reasons the blogger stopped watching "The Flash" was because Iris criticized Felicity, turned on Felicity about the double wedding. The blogger is a huge Olicity fan and apparently cannot fathom that what Fefe did was in any way wrong. Felicity is unimpeachable and must never be criticized in her opinion. But Iris is the devil for speaking a word about Fefe's rudeness.

Edited May 18, 2018 by adora721

[Kate45]

27 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I read a Tumblr post where one of the reasons the blogger stopped watching "The Flash" was because Iris criticized Felicity, turned on Felicity about the double wedding. The blogger is a huge Olicity fan and apparently cannot fathom that what Fefe did was in any way wrong. Felicity is unimpeachable and must never be criticized in her opinion. But Iris is the devil for speaking a word about Fefe's rudeness.

I think I read the same post. It struck me as such an odd thing to be upset about. What Felicity and Oliver did was tacky. I would call it tacky if Barry and Iris did it as well. The action was tacky. Period. 

As for Iris? I was glad she said something. She didn't try to humiliate Felicity. She told her husband in the privacy of her own home that she was upset by Felicity and Olivers actions. There is nothing wrong with doing that. 

Don't even get me started in the fact that Felicity and Oliver got their own wedding on their own show the very next week. Why did they interrupt at all!?!?

[adora721]

14 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

As for Iris? I was glad she said something. She didn't try to humiliate Felicity. She told her husband in the privacy of her own home that she was upset by Felicity and Olivers actions. There is nothing wrong with doing that. 

Exactly! And the majority of the mass media agreed that Fefe and Oliver were awful wedding guests, but that fandom will not tolerate criticism of Olicity; it's almost cultish in their "worship" of them and Felicity in particular. 

I can say that Iris was tacky during that fancy dinner in S1 that Ray set up, where she kept needling Eddie about being honest. It wasn't the time or the place for her to make a scene about it.  She should have kept that argument private and not bring it up at a dinner with Barry's friends. Iris was wrong for doing that at the dinner.

I don't worship either Barry or Iris; they have faults, too. However, the seeming sacrosanct nature of Caitlin and Felicity draws my constant ire; both the fandom and the writers refuse to let them have consequences for their misdeeds and, in Caitlin's case, murderous acts (abetted HR's murder) and attempted murder (Tracy Brand, Cecile, and Iris). Like all that murderous mayhem is small beans compared to Iris having a fallible, human moment of upset about a supposed friend stealing her and Barry's wedding thunder or being annoyed with Harry's rudeness. Really??

[Trini]

Posting this Candice Patton interview here, because of her comments on Iris in Season 4:

Iris-related excerpts:

Quote

CBR: Everyone has a role on the show. Does it feel like Iris has emerged as the team’s matriarch?

Candice Patton: For sure. If you think about Iris from Season 1 until now, she’s made a huge leap in terms of her importance and her role on the team. I do think she’s been accepted into the matriarch role of the team. That’s come with her and Barry’s relationship, and then subsequently getting married. He’s the Flash and she’s the wife of the Flash. They lead the team in that sense.

After getting a taste of superpowers this season, why was it important for Iris to go back to her journalistic roots?

I think it’s fun. I’ve always said I’d like to be a superhero on the show, just for the fans and myself. Iris is one of the few characters that is truly human, who is brave and heroic in her own ways without having superpowers. If everyone on the show ends up with superpowers, it becomes a different show. It becomes Legends of Tomorrow. We already have that show. It’s important on The Flash to keep some of the human aspects like with Iris and Joe (Jesse L. Martin). Iris has proven herself over the seasons of just being heroic without the powers, of being a great journalist, of being brave and being calm in the face of danger. It’s always been important to keep her in that lane.

On a series like The Flash, are you a believer that the pen can be mightier than the proverbial sword?

Yeah, I would like to believe that. We haven’t really delved into that a lot over the last few seasons with Iris being an on-and-off journalist. I hope that’s something we can continue to explore in the coming seasons. It’s a tricky thing for Iris to be a reporter and deal with S.T.A.R Labs. I don’t know how the writers will handle it, but I hope they can figure it out in a way to make her reporting important to the storyline and helping Team Flash.

This year, Iris outed DeVoe in a blog…

It was interesting on the writers’ part. Fans seem really excited that Iris is getting back to her roots. That all kind of started with her being a superhero and her realizing why she is on this Earth. She realizes while it’s fun to be a superhero, that’s not her calling. That is Barry’s calling. It reminded her of what her really calling is, which is to be a journalist. It’s exciting to see her get back into what makes her want to get up in the morning.

As a wordsmith, is that why Iris was the right person to hunt down Marlize (Kim Engelbrecht)? Iris presents a pretty convincing argument.

As we’ve said, Iris is a journalist. She’s really great with her words, but she’s also good at verbalizing her words, her feelings and expressing things. I think that’s why she makes such a great team leader. Everyone is so analytical, and she is the heart. She can speak truth to power and motivate everyone. We saw that in the last episode with Marlize. Iris has a really fantastic way with words and galvanizing everyone. I think that will help ending the season, with recruiting Marlize on our team to help stop DeVoe.

...

Iris had plenty to do in Season 4. In what way did all that activity rekindle some of your creative juices when it came to the character?

It’s been a good season. The last two seasons, the writers have done an excellent job of trying to write more for Iris. It’s been exciting this season, especially getting to be a superhero, having this big wedding and being part of this crossover — I think it’s been a long time coming. It’s been frustrating for fans of the show. But, it’s getting there. I think there’s a lot more room to go. For me as an actor, it’s definitely more stimulating on set when I have something to do and I am contributing to the storyline.

Even though some audiences found last year quite dark, Iris was instrumental to the Savitar arc.

I enjoyed it, too. I know a lot of people did think it was dark. I think we can have both. We can have seasons of darkness and seasons of humor and lightness, and a little bit of both. I enjoyed last season. It plays into my natural affinity for drama. I also enjoyed this season of doing more comedic bits. But, I did like Savitar. He was a good villain. I was happy that Iris was integral in saving herself.

[Katsullivan]

On 5/22/2018 at 5:58 PM, Trini said:

As a wordsmith, is that why Iris was the right person to hunt down Marlize (Kim Engelbrecht)? Iris presents a pretty convincing argument.

As we’ve said, Iris is a journalist. She’s really great with her words, but she’s also good at verbalizing her words, her feelings and expressing things. I think that’s why she makes such a great team leader. Everyone is so analytical, and she is the heart.

There's more to journalism than just being wordy though. There's the investigative part of it - hunting down sources, research, putting seemingly unrelated pieces of data together to form a bigger picture, searching for truth - uncovering layers of deception to get to it. 

Journalism is not just words/speechifying and there are a million ways they could make Iris-as-Journalist a pivotal part of this series. But they fail to do so more regularly because they're not interested in doing so.

I hoped things had changed with AJK's exit - and things have changed but too marginally. 

[ursula]

I've been talking up Suits (Meghan Markle fever, y'all) and it really strikes me how well that show did at establishing Rachel - the primary LI character - as her own person in her own right straight from the Pilot. She's given internal conflict, that progresses into conflict with her LI, and her own arc that's more than just being a prop to his character. And it's all done effortlessly in a non-ham-fisted, "this is a special Girls's Episode" manner. Like I literally never appreciated how well they handle female characters on that show because I've never had to think about how they handle female characters on that show.

 

Which is a roundabout way of saying that I totally agree with this:

8 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

There's more to journalism than just being wordy though. There's the investigative part of it - hunting down sources, research, putting seemingly unrelated pieces of data together to form a bigger picture, searching for truth - uncovering layers of deception to get to it. 

Journalism is not just words/speechifying and there are a million ways they could make Iris-as-Journalist a pivotal part of this series. But they fail to do so more regularly because they're not interested in doing so.

Have we forgotten Lois Lane and Clark Kent? Or Peter Parker? The spunky investigative journalist who does half the leg-work is a staple in comic book stories. There's no reason why Iris's journalism shouldn't  have been playing a huge role from season 1. I remember how excited I got when Mason drew her into his investigation on Harrison Wells, and I thought Iris would be the one to uncover Eowells. It would have made perfect sense since as an outsider, she had the objectivity to actually examine the hard facts and not be swayed by his personality or attachment. Instead, Mason was killed off --- Barry figures it out, and Iris is once more left in the dark.

 

And the show keeps doing that. They can give a detective arc to Patty Spivot, a PI arc to Ralph, but besides the Racing episode, Iris has never got a strong journalism arc. Her investigative skills are "subsumed" into more "tech-y" stuff like Cisco running facial recognition and checking databanks, etc. It's telling that for a great deal of this season, we didn't even know she had quit her job. As much as I like Iris being team leader, it was handled clunkily and they mostly presented her as the person giving orders around, and doing unnecessary fight scene co-ordinations, and not someone who was bringing in cases, and directing them on certain courses of action. 

It's really, really frustrating as an Iris fan to watch this show. I don't always pop over here so as not to dogpile negativity but Suits got me thinking about how effortlessly they can get a WOC LI right - even with the show being centered solidly on 2 white guys and their bromance - and it just made me feel bad, realizing that the Flash could easily get Iris right. They just don't want to. 

[BeautifulFlower]

18 minutes ago, ursula said:

I've been talking up Suits (Meghan Markle fever, y'all) and it really strikes me how well that show did at establishing Rachel - the primary LI character - as her own person in her own right straight from the Pilot. She's given internal conflict, that progresses into conflict with her LI, and her own arc that's more than just being a prop to his character. And it's all done effortlessly in a non-ham-fisted, "this is a special Girls's Episode" manner. Like I literally never appreciated how well they handle female characters on that show because I've never had to think about how they handle female characters on that show.

 

Which is a roundabout way of saying that I totally agree with this:

Have we forgotten Lois Lane and Clark Kent? Or Peter Parker? The spunky investigative journalist who does half the leg-work is a staple in comic book stories. There's no reason why Iris's journalism shouldn't  have been playing a huge role from season 1. I remember how excited I got when Mason drew her into his investigation on Harrison Wells, and I thought Iris would be the one to uncover Eowells. It would have made perfect sense since as an outsider, she had the objectivity to actually examine the hard facts and not be swayed by his personality or attachment. Instead, Mason was killed off --- Barry figures it out, and Iris is once more left in the dark.

 

And the show keeps doing that. They can give a detective arc to Patty Spivot, a PI arc to Ralph, but besides the Racing episode, Iris has never got a strong journalism arc. Her investigative skills are "subsumed" into more "tech-y" stuff like Cisco running facial recognition and checking databanks, etc. It's telling that for a great deal of this season, we didn't even know she had quit her job. As much as I like Iris being team leader, it was handled clunkily and they mostly presented her as the person giving orders around, and doing unnecessary fight scene co-ordinations, and not someone who was bringing in cases, and directing them on certain courses of action. 

It's really, really frustrating as an Iris fan to watch this show. I don't always pop over here so as not to dogpile negativity but Suits got me thinking about how effortlessly they can get a WOC LI right - even with the show being centered solidly on 2 white guys and their bromance - and it just made me feel bad, realizing that the Flash could easily get Iris right. They just don't want to. 

It's the team and AJK. As people have mentioned here, there is not team in the comics. Barry does everything on his own, but he sometimes got help from Iris. Her journalism helped him in the comics. When the show went the team route, they took that characterization from Iris and gave it to the team. The show could have still incorporated her journalism with the team, but they can't. As you mentioned, Cisco designed tech-y stuff at Star Labs. His designs can find out anything about anyone. What would be the point of Iris going out and investigating if Star Labs can do it? 

 

I hate the way they Iris journalism. But then again, this show has done everything possible to ruin all the major Flash comics characters.

• Barry's been nerfed to prop up non-flash characters
• Barry's intelligence is not displayed
• Relying on the team all the time made Barry incompetent
• Iris journalism has not been treated well
• Linda was made Barry's girlfriend
• And Poor Wally

[Trini]

On 5/24/2018 at 6:22 PM, ursula said:

Have we forgotten Lois Lane and Clark Kent? Or Peter Parker? The spunky investigative journalist who does half the leg-work is a staple in comic book stories. There's no reason why Iris's journalism shouldn't  have been playing a huge role from season 1. I remember how excited I got when Mason drew her into his investigation on Harrison Wells, and I thought Iris would be the one to uncover Eowells. It would have made perfect sense since as an outsider, she had the objectivity to actually examine the hard facts and not be swayed by his personality or attachment. Instead, Mason was killed off --- Barry figures it out, and Iris is once more left in the dark.

And the show keeps doing that. They can give a detective arc to Patty Spivot, a PI arc to Ralph, but besides the Racing episode, Iris has never got a strong journalism arc. Her investigative skills are "subsumed" into more "tech-y" stuff like Cisco running facial recognition and checking databanks, etc. It's telling that for a great deal of this season, we didn't even know she had quit her job. As much as I like Iris being team leader, it was handled clunkily and they mostly presented her as the person giving orders around, and doing unnecessary fight scene co-ordinations, and not someone who was bringing in cases, and directing them on certain courses of action. 

It's really, really frustrating as an Iris fan to watch this show. I don't always pop over here so as not to dogpile negativity but Suits got me thinking about how effortlessly they can get a WOC LI right - even with the show being centered solidly on 2 white guys and their bromance - and it just made me feel bad, realizing that the Flash could easily get Iris right. They just don't want to. 

I agree with you; however Iris has had other journalism/investigating stories, but they've usually been very short. It's encouraging that it looks like they will try to incorporate her career/skills more in Season 5. It took Kreisberg leaving, and 2/3rds of Season 4 to get there, but they did make Iris' blog/reporting relevant to main story near the end.

(Re: bolded:) I feel similarly. I think Iris being leader showed that they did want to keep her relevant and connected to the action (because everything has to happen at STAR Labs, you know...), and I'm glad it was an element that was reinforced and carried through for the whole season; but Iris and her skills can easily also be relevant to the main arcs outside of STAR Labs, while also still connected to STAR Labs, if that's what they really want. A great example of this is how she was able to find and bring in Marlize to stop the Thinker. More of this in Season 5, thanks!

[Trini]

Happy birthday, Candice!

[VCRTracking]

[BeautifulFlower]

24 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Ugh, she shouldn't even have to post stuff like this. I want to say these people need to learn how to separate reality from fiction. However, if they watch a tv show where they say the character's name; and found the actor's twitter, then they can separate reality from fiction.  These people are just being assholes.

[VCRTracking]

She was responding to someone who took offense to this:

And Brandon Routh had her back:

[BeautifulFlower]

You know with this tweet, it reminded me of something. I read this on another forum and it's an interesting read.

Quote

Quote

One of the most comical and wonderous things about the character of Iris West-Allen played by Candice Patton is the endless obsession fans have with her. You've got her dedicated fandom (they had #RunIrisRun trending worldwide just like *that*), general fans who watch, go back to their normal lives and would need a dictionary to understand the word fandom. Then there's those who have a vitriol hatred for her.

You know? You can visualize the steam coming from their ears and the white knuckling of their palms. The disdain isn't just for Iris West-Allen, it extends to Candice Patton too, and boy is it quite interesting. Is it logical? Does the answer to that question even matter? No.

Why? Purely for the fact...No matter what. All of this. Year after year, has done nothing but work to her benefit. The fact that anyone can sit down and talk ad nauseam in forums and on social media about a character they loathe is beautiful thing.....for said character.

Jumping from a Forum, to Facebook to revel in the hate for said character. Rejoicing in the meeting of minds at how much you hate them. At every turn she does something oh so monstrous and it must be discussed. 

I don't like Felicity Smoak. The last time I wrote that sentence was in 2016 when I stopped watching Arrow. I didn't like Laurel Lance either. I rarely discussed her until I started liking her because she was not worth the mention in my mind.

There isn't a character more powerful than one that is fiercely loved and fiercely hated. That's why in the Game of Thrones, Iris West-Allen wins.

To hate a character, to have a strong belief he/she ruins the show....and continue to watch and talk about it/her? Bravo! Brava! To said character. Indifference is a slow death. To love or hate is an obsession. A welcomed fixatation. "God I hate her....same time next week? Yup. God I she's loathsome...same time next week? God I hate her...how long is the hiatus?" 

The harder antis hates, the harder fans loves. The more feverent buzz generated. 

Haters love to claim they speak for the majority. It's the binkie of validity. Grant Gustin's Instagram post of the Westallen Wedding hit 1 Million Likes but you know, the "majority". Iris' speedster poster hits something like 620K Likes+. The main account posting Iris' poster gets over 235,000+ Likes in one day vs the Killer Frost one is still at 189,000+ after three months. At Comic Con (which I attended) Candice Patton received the loudest cheers upon her coming on stage and during the trailer but the "majority" right? Same with Arrow, the "majority" hate Felicity or Laurel but these defeaning cheers say otherwise.

Little secret, the "majority" that's spoken off will always hate female characters no matter. Said female character will always be destroying the show and driving away the "majority". That narrative will never die and it will never be the truth. 

I disliked Felicity and Laurel at different points but I was blessed with a sound mind. Neither character ruined the show.

The love and hate are the balance. Guggenheim woke a beast when he killed off Laurel and welcome back Miss Lance. Felicity started off loved. The vitriol hatred that followed was the perfect balancing act. Their haters make them stronger. If only haters knew that but they can't physically stop themselves. Same with Iris. The Speedforce draws them to her. Must bash Iris! Must have her name in my mouth and on my keyboard.

Then there's indifference, Caitlin Snow. She doesn't blow a strong wind. It's not her fault. Her fans spend as much time, if not more time talking about Iris. Or using Caitlin as a self insert in this "Snowbarry" crackship. Due to the latter she became the revolving door for male guest stars: Ronnie, Hunter and Julian. Welcome to casa Caitlin! The former has led to the complete recton of Killer Frost S3 and the humorless comedy of men needing to yell in her face like she's the Siri on their iPhone to awaken Killer Frost. 

Laurel fans ensured that the value of her character was NOT Lauriver. That's why bringing her back has been so easy. You could count on your hand the Laurel fans that still want Lauriver. Caitlin fans still to this day, desperately try to convince themselves Barry Allen, who declares his love for Iris nearly every episode is interested in Caitlin....*brief pause for embarassment*.....how can the writers value a character who isn't valued by her own fans? How can that level of indifference to who she is from her own fans do anything but devalue her season by season? 

Patty Spivot. Indifference. She could've had it all but no impact. I could elaborate but it's been two years and we'll never see her again. You get the point. We were knee deep in her character and relationship with Barry and nothing. Evoke an emotion. Any emotion and make it have an impact. No? Let's keep moving. 

Iris West-Allen's greatest super power is literally no one will shut up about her. Comical and wonderous.

Love her or hate her. Just know....you are the wind beneath her wings. The butter to her bread. The enema to her constipation. To put it simply...

 

This person spoke the truth. Iris West-Allen/Candice Patton is winning no matter what.

 

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=36443015&postcount=98 - Source

Edited July 2, 2018 by BeautifulFlower
Adding credit source

[adora721]

As I'm re-watching S1, I cannot help but be filled with anger and disappointment at seeing Cisco, Eddie, Joe, Caitlin, and Barry all in Iris' home discussing things that directly affect her and she's not there. This occurs in 1x19 and 1x20. And all this secrecy in the name of "protecting her." They infantalize Iris and are upset with her when she lashes out in 1x21. 

Additionally, to a poster who claimed that the writers retconned Iris to do Caitlin's job, which I assume means on the computers since Iris doesn't do medicine: In 1x19, Iris comes to STAR Labs and easily uses their computers. She states that she’s gone through CCP archives and  hacked into Joe’s CCP account, so Iris already had strong computer skills. Learning to use STAR Labs computers isn't some skill that takes years of training or a PhD. It's not like Caitlin or Iris were coding like Fefe nor was Iris doing scientific calculations with the computers. So, there was no retconning involved for Iris to be good at using their computers.

I believe that episode was the first time Iris was in the chair at their computers; that continued in "Grodd Lives" when she took the comms to help Barry override Grodd's telepathy, and she was a regular in STAR Labs after that. Joe said it himself, in an earlier episode, that if Iris knew the truth, she'd want to be there in the lab helping Barry, which is where she should have been all along.

[Kate45]

On 7/1/2018 at 11:57 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

You know with this tweet, it reminded me of something. I read this on another forum and it's an interesting read.

This person spoke the truth. Iris West-Allen/Candice Patton is winning no matter what.

 

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=36443015&postcount=98 - Source

This is 100% the truth, and I can't figure out how these haters don't get that they are helping to ensure that Iris will never leave the show. Why? Because she creates more buzz than any one else on the show. She creates more buzz than Barry or at the very least she rivals Barry for buzz. Caitlin and Harry had the majority of the plots at the end of season 4. That brought zero buzz to the show. No one cared.  People who "love" Caitlin only use their "love" for her to put Iris down. Plus, someone once said that without Iris SnowBarry doesn't exist. Quiet frankly, it's true. Iris West-Allen is winning on every level.    

[phoenics]

On 7/1/2018 at 2:09 AM, VCRTracking said:

She was responding to someone who took offense to this:

And Brandon Routh had her back:

Oooh I didn't see Superman come to her defense!! YEAH!!!

[phoenics]

On 7/3/2018 at 10:34 AM, Kate45 said:

This is 100% the truth, and I can't figure out how these haters don't get that they are helping to ensure that Iris will never leave the show. Why? Because she creates more buzz than any one else on the show. She creates more buzz than Barry or at the very least she rivals Barry for buzz. Caitlin and Harry had the majority of the plots at the end of season 4. That brought zero buzz to the show. No one cared.  People who "love" Caitlin only use their "love" for her to put Iris down. Plus, someone once said that without Iris SnowBarry doesn't exist. Quiet frankly, it's true. Iris West-Allen is winning on every level.    

This is nothing but the truth.  Bold and the Beautiful haters of Brooke Logan made the exact same mistake back in the day.  They posted more about their hatred of Brooke than their love of Taylor (who was just a vehicle for Brooke-hate).  KKL has been the Queen of that show ever since the producers figured out that it was all about her.

Same with Iris.  I've noticed that she invokes strong emotion on both sides - the haters cannot help but to talk about her, giving her a prominence and prevalence that CS can't match.  

[BeautifulFlower]

Quote

Their haters make them stronger. If only haters knew that but they can't physically stop themselves. Same with Iris. The Speedforce draws them to her. Must bash Iris! Must have her name in my mouth and on my keyboard.

This is the perfect description of the haters.

[Starry]

So much truth in that post. I'm pleased and surprised that someone had the guts to call out the fanboys on SuperHeroHype. I don't know if things have changed but when I used to read that forum some individuals didn't even bother to hide their misogyny and racism.

 

On 2/7/2018 at 5:07 PM, adora721 said:

Additionally, to a poster who claimed that the writers retconned Iris to do Caitlin's job, which I assume means on the computers since Iris doesn't do medicine: In 1x19, Iris comes to STAR Labs and easily uses their computers. She states that she’s gone through CCP archives and  hacked into Joe’s CCP account, so Iris already had strong computer skills. Learning to use STAR Labs computers isn't some skill that takes years of training or a PhD.

Iris was bashed for hacking (I assume she just guessed Joe's password, lol) into the CCPD archives back in the day. For some people she wasn't supposed to be able to do that.

[BeautifulFlower]

10 hours ago, Starry said:

So much truth in that post. I'm pleased and surprised that someone had the guts to call out the fanboys on SuperHeroHype. I don't know if things have changed but when I used to read that forum some individuals didn't even bother to hide their misogyny and racism.

 

Iris was bashed for hacking (I assume she just guessed Joe's password, lol) into the CCPD archives back in the day. For some people she wasn't supposed to be able to do that.

That was my first thought when Iris said she hacked Joe's account. Like he's her father who she knows very well, so it makes sense she could make a good guess what his password is. You what's funny? Iris hacking into Joe's account is probably the first realistic hacking the Arrowvese shows ever done. Just like the science, hacking on these shows is straight BS. It takes more than typing a few keys to hack something.

 

 Someone literally had an issue with Iris saying adrenal glands. Here

Quote

 

These people are clearly ones who can't seem to let go of Iris working part time as a barista. They think because we didn't see her in school and she was a barista that means she's stupid.

[Kate45]

21 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

That was my first thought when Iris said she hacked Joe's account. Like he's her father who she knows very well, so it makes sense she could make a good guess what his password is. You what's funny? Iris hacking into Joe's account is probably the first realistic hacking the Arrowvese shows ever done. Just like the science, hacking on these shows is straight BS. It takes more than typing a few keys to hack something.

 

 Someone literally had an issue with Iris saying adrenal glands. Here

These people are clearly ones who can't seem to let go of Iris working part time as a barista. They think because we didn't see her in school and she was a barista that means she's stupid.

Yes, but its also the racism seeping through. They can buy that Caitlin is a geneticist, biochemist, psychiatrist, surgeon, general medical doctor, OBGYN, and top-rate researcher (I'm sure I'm missing something) who has been been practicing for about 10 years before the age of 30. That would mean that she had competed at least 2 doctorates, medical school with different tracks, an internship, and a residency by the age of 20. THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. But, Iris knowing how an adrenal gland works is a bridge too far? Come on. That's covert racism. They wouldn't assume Iris is so stupid if she was a white woman. Period. 

We have seen Iris be smart so many times. Just because she's not a scientist, she's an idiot? I think not. It's also clear that most of these people who hate don't work in STEM fields.

The barista thing just adds to it. I was a barista when I started graduate school, and during the time that I taught elementary school. Customers treated me like I was an absolute idiot, even though I was more educated than most of the customers.

[adora721]

So, I just bought the Flash S2 DVD. I had been watching digital episodes I purchased for S1.  To my utter dismay, I noticed that a picture of CP as Iris West is nowhere to be found on the S2 box. But guess who is pictured twice? Caitlin Snow and facing front. In the text that appears at the top, they mention Barry's lab team first, starting with CS and ending with Harrison Wells. Joe and Iris are mentioned last. The lead actress and main love interest is mentioned last.

This piqued my interest to look at the S1 DVD box. I found pictures of the box online. The back ,once again, has two pictures of Caitlin Snow (one facing front, another showing the back of her body tending to Barry) and one profile picture of Iris in the far, far right corner with Girder. Now, if you are a casual viewer or knew little or nothing about the show and you saw this DVD on the shelf, who do you think would stand out as the lead actress or love interest based on the pictures on the box? 

The S3 DVD has no pictures of either woman on the back. However, the first paragraph mentions Iris as "beautiful" and "smart" no less. A picture would be nice to go with that description. The S4 DVD has Iris and Barry in a semi embrace with Iris in profile again, so that's an improvement.

Now, tell me that some of the TPTB didn't have an anti-Iris West agenda in the early days.

[VCRTracking]

[BeautifulFlower]

It's funny how anti Iris people think her going back to journalism will keep her out of Star Labs. They want things to go back to season 1 as if her journalism was the reason she wasn't in SL. They seem to forget it was due to Barry keeping his secret.

[Trini]

I just really hope they follow through with Iris' journalism this season. As noted, it shouldn't be that hard to incorporate her investigating and reporting to the cases of the week, and to show how her work connects the team to the rest of Central City.

----

And Iris will be in STAR Labs just like everyone else will be in STAR Labs, because they love one(1) set. Plus, she half owns the place now!

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

I just really hope they follow through with Iris' journalism this season. As noted, it shouldn't be that hard to incorporate her investigating and reporting to the cases of the week, and to show how her work connects the team to the rest of Central City.

----

And Iris will be in STAR Labs just like everyone else will be in STAR Labs, because they love one(1) set. Plus, she half owns the place now!

Yes - and it was also confirmed that she'll still be the leader in STAR Labs and doing journalism.  Mwahahahahahaaa!!!!  *cackles evilly*

[Trini]

From the Spoiler Spec. thread:

14 hours ago, mj2000 said:

I'm gonna get rocks thrown at me for this, but here goes....

I'm not seeing at all that Iris has been side-lined for anyone. In fact, other than Barry, she has been/is a central character. Iris has always been Barry's main focus. We have seen...

Iris and Barry's friendship played out complete with numerous flashbacks. Not to mention the development of their romantic relationship.

Iris and Joe's relationship

Iris and Eddy's relationship

Iris and her mother's relationship

Iris and Wally's relationship....even in Flashpoint

Iris getting mad when she discovered that Barry was the Flash and Joe knew about it. But it was OK for her to keep Wally's existence a secret from Joe for weeks.

Iris's jealous reactions when Barry dated Linda and Patty.

Basically all of season 3 dedicated to Iris and her impending death by Savitar. Not to mention the team risking their lives to save her and HR actually dying for her.

S4 Ep1 features Iris as the team leader acting about as cold as Killer Frost to those around her. Doing her "tough as nails" routine all the while turning her and Barry's picture over and sleeping on the couch. 

If it wasn't for the dynamic of Nora now turning up, I would be perfectly happy if Iris went back to CCPN and was hardly seen for a while.
 

There's a lot I agree with here.

However, I do think there's a case to be made that the writing for her should have been better, considering her importance to the lead (Barry) and to the overall narrative. I'm not going to rehash every little thing(you can check this thread or several others for more issues), but I think major missteps included Iris hardly having a voice/point of view, even in stories where she was a main participant; shortchanging her relationships with her parents; and in general her being absent from the narrative at certain times.

 

Quote

I see no issue with giving other team members stories. I am invested in Caitlin/Killer Frost. Since she was written as having powers, I see no problem in exploring them or her background/family dynamic. Caitlin isnt even allowed to have a steady love interest. They have either died, turned out to be evil, or written as leaving the country.

We were even given family issues with Cisco and his brother. We saw his relationship with Gypsy. But again, it seems as if Cisco is another that isn't allowed to have a love interest.

Instead we are consistently treated to the love saga of Barry/Iris. That seems to be the main one allowed with the exception of Joe/Cecile.

I have no problem with the other team members getting stories either. But I'm burnt out with Caitlin in particular because the show has been so inconsistent with her. I'd love to see more for Cisco.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Trini

[ursula]

44 minutes ago, Trini said:

Iris getting mad when she discovered that Barry was the Flash and Joe knew about it. But it was OK for her to keep Wally's existence a secret from Joe for weeks.

Only this is not what happened. Iris didn't keep Wally's existence a secret from Joe. She got the traumatizing news, took a week to process it, then confided in Barry and eventually they both broke it down to Joe.

Barry and Joe lied and gas-lighted Iris about him being the Flash for a whole year, and recruited her boyfriend to do so. They never told her the truth about the Flash. She found out about it on her own. 

Iris comparing the 2 is just the show being disingenuous because they're not equivalent.

As for the rest, most of it is a stretch. It took 3 season for Barry/Iris to get a childhood flashback (focused on them, not Barry's relationship with Joe). Most people still don't get that they were friends before he moved into Joe's house. Iris wasn't jealous of Patty because the show wrote Iris as his sister all of 2A and she was barely even on the show.

Caitlin has always had meaty storylines and POV --- which is an anomaly because Iris, not Caitlin, is the female lead. Westallen not any  other ship is the show's OTP so complaining about the show prioritizing them is like complaining that Smallville prioritized Clana in its first seasons or Clois in its last. 

 

Also these are not identical:

Quote

I'm not seeing at all that Iris has been side-lined for anyone. In fact, other than Barry, she has been/is a central character.

Quote

Iris has always been Barry's main focus.

3B is a classic example of how Iris can ostentatiously be Barry's main focus (keeping her safe from Savitar) and still be completely side-lined in a plot that was about her. Iris was the most insignificant character in 3B, with most of the agency and POV given to Caitlin's "will she/won't she/Killer-Frosty" arc. 

 

About the only thing I agree with is needing more storylines for Cisco. 

[Starry]

On 1/10/2018 at 10:06 AM, mj2000 said:

Basically all of season 3 dedicated to Iris and her impending death by Savitar. Not to mention the team risking their lives to save her and HR actually dying for her.

I disagree with almost everything but there's a lot to say about this. When have we seen the others risk their lives to save Iris? They've risked their lives for her just as much as they do for every other Central City Citizen. What I have seen is Iris imploring Barry to not kill just to save her, to not lose his humanity just to save her, to not forget about two-faced Caitlin just to save her. What aired is Caitlin trying her hardest to not help Iris and in some cases, and that before going all Killer Frost on them, even have her killed if it meant she had a chance of getting rid of those pesky ice powers.

What HR did was noble but let's not pretend Iris didn't try to stop him until Killer Frost knocked her out.

Others already explained it better than I could but Iris having boyfriends and family members does not automatically mean those relationships are a priority or even get the screen time they deserve. Because we've seen Cisco have conversations with Barry, Caitlin, Harry, his mother, his brother and three love interests but most of those relationships are still underdeveloped. I've seen more scenes with Caitlin and her love interests than between Iris and Eddie (sorry but I don't consider Iris and Eddie discussing Barry/Flash an EddieIris scene, that's a WestAllen scene as it's there to tell that part of the story).

I understand that when you dislike a character (you seem to dislike Iris, or are indifferent, I'm not sure what it is) you want to see as little of them as possible but that does not mean the show is overusing the character. As for the WestAllen love saga, they're the show main couple so they should be put above other couples and other Barry relationships. The problem is that they're not getting as much as they should. I've already discussed about it in other threads but the fact that Barry was allowed to have dates with Linda and Patty and sing karaoke with his non-love interest Caitlin while everything WestAllen is either interrupted, cut short (or deleted) or hijacked is actually disgusting. They don't even have the drama most CW couples have!

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

They don't even have the drama most CW couples have!

I thought this was supposed to be a positive thing? Isn’t this the basis for the “WA is the gold standard, better than all the other couples” claims?

[Trini]

Quote

I thought this was supposed to be a positive thing?

I don't think Starry mentioned it as a negative aspect. I think the point is that since they don't run on drama like most, they should be able to have nice things.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Trini

[Starry]

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I thought this was supposed to be a positive thing? Isn’t this the basis for the “WA is the gold standard, better than all the other couples” claims?

My point is that if someone doesn't want to see the WestAllen love saga they don't have much to worry about, not compared to other CW couples at least. Enough of their nice moments are interrupted, cut short, deleted, hijacked. Since they don't have much drama they don't get too much screen time on that front either. That's all.

Those who root for Barry + someone that's not Iris have plenty to be bitter about but since the other poster didn't mention anything about other Barry ships I didn't feel the need to comment on it.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I can only imagine Candice patton watching this and the current felicity arc on arrow and everyone on black lightning and Legends and going "what the f***" how is everyone getting better writing than me in DC

There's something she said once that echoes  Nichelle Nichols's conversation with Martin King Jnr --- that she (Candice, Nichelle) had to stay at these jobs, getting crap from the writing and probably her colleagues because when they do so, it  makes it a little easier for the next Black woman in the same position. It makes it easier for her to be accepted, it makes it easier for her to get better treatment, it makes easier for her character to be treated with more respect, etc.

But I think in the long run, it also makes it easier, so to speak, on her. The longer she sticks to it, the better it gets. I've seen it happen all the time: Black women get casted as mains (not necessarily leads) and there's a certain ... "hazing" period, so to speak where the showrunners/fandom try to "run her out of town". And if she manages to somehow survive that, the writing for her improves and the fandom becomes ... less hostile, mostly because they become resigned to her never leaving. 

This season of TheFlash - so far - has been miles better for Iris/Westallen though it still has shady bits. than season 4, which was in turn better than season 3, which was better than season 1.