Erin9 June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, hellmouse said: I think the writers intended the very thing that frustrates you and many others - they left "what happens" open-ended. The thing they were careful to show was the status of relationships: who is together, who is alone, etc. I would love to know what they think will happen to each character, but for me, it also is very true to my experience watching the show to not know what happens next. For me, it's consistent with the tone of this particular show. I forget which article I read, but I will look for it - it was about the different types of series finales and the frustration/satisfaction that each provokes in the viewer (and of course, all viewers are different). I think the examples it cited were shows like Six Feet Under, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos. I will post it if I can find it! I would agree. This show often left a lot unsaid, unknown, open. It does seem to fit. At least it didn’t end with P/E driving. I was starting to worry. That would have been a bit much. It’s true- nothing was left off the table. But- the writers chose to put relationships in certain places. So- I’ll take it from there. And since no one goes to prison or dies in their version- No one does in mine. Except maybe Renee. Lol This show deviated enough from the real world w/r/t the reality of the FBI, KGB, P/E’s real jobs, that I feel like I can do plenty of deviating in my own sum up. I think I would have been madder about things being so unresolved if it wasn’t for the fact that I figured on a TV Show like this- more resolution would have been more depressing. So I’ll take less resolution in favor of more potential happiness over the long term. Generally- I’d probably like a few more things tied up at least. I wanted the Jennings family to be intact and alive. But I did know that them being intact at least simply wasn’t happening. What did happen- was about as good as it was likely to get. For the finale anyway. Also- at what point are relationships resolved? I know there are lots of other unresolved pieces- coup issues, FBI questioning, but just looking at that. At what point is something the way it always will be? Did Ross and Rachel really get it together for good? Carrie and Big? I’m pretty sure there were fans who didn’t like that- and broke them up in their minds later on. Lol Edited June 7, 2018 by Erin9 4 Link to comment
Razzberry June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 13 hours ago, Umbelina said: Nice try here Rhys, but she could also, you know, GO TO PRISON. Or kill herself, or live off the streets, or live for several years working for McDonald's just to keep a roof over her head. They themselves didn't think twice about killing an innocent witness, so I don't think the KGB would hesitate to eliminate Paige, making it look like an accident or suicide. 3 Link to comment
Umbelina June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Razzberry said: They themselves didn't think twice about killing an innocent witness, so I don't think the KGB would hesitate to eliminate Paige, making it look like an accident or suicide. That may happen. She knows too much, and she's unreliable. Also, the USSR has a habit of punishing family members for transgressions. But they have other embedded agents, since Arkady's plan of rounding them all up at the same time didn't work out. Paige even leading them to the garage would be a huge help to the FBI, the safe house, even more help. They are taking crumbs right now, and doing well, Paige is a bonanza of hundreds of more crumbs for them. Arkady's boss was giving Elizabeth her orders (Coup.) That would be another way to have revenge on her, send a warning to others. Edited June 7, 2018 by Umbelina 1 Link to comment
Bannon June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 12 hours ago, Plums said: I think it's a bit disingenuous to accept the premise of this show, which is about two Russian illegals who regularly put their operations and lives on the line by breaking and entering to place bugs, getting into car chases, assassinating targets and leaving trails of dead innocent bystanders in their wake, and oh by the way they live across the street from and are best friends with an FBI counterintelligence agent- things that are blatantly unrealistic and solely there for dramatic purposes, but then absolutely reject the idea that Paige could not possibly withhold information in an interrogation because it's not realistic that the FBI wouldn't pressure her into revealing every last detail she knows. If she was strong enough to get off that train, she's strong enough not to volunteer information the FBI wouldn't even know to ask her about. because really, the FBI has no reason to suspect Paige is even involved at all, beyond going missing the same night her parents fled the country, and that could easily be explained as them spiriting her away on their flight to the border without her even knowing what was going on at first. Stan's not saying anything, and he's the only one who knows anything about Paige's knowledge or involvement. And the extent of that knowledge is that she found out her parents were spies and kept their secret. Even if she admitted to that, I don't think she'd go to prison for it. even in the real world I don't think someone who found out their parents were spies and kept the secret in that same circumstance in which Paige did would go to prison. Maybe she'd receive some sort of probation and lose her passport for a time and be monitored. Maybe they'd make her sign some sort of affidavit so that she could be easily arrested if they ever did find any proof she committed a crime, but they're not going to. Because she honestly didn't do anything that would leave evidence tying her to a crime. She even had a chance to gain access to classified files from her defense subcommittee intern boyfriend that she wanted to hand over, and Elizabeth refused, which definitely would have been treason had she done something like that, but which we are told explicitly that she didn't actually get around to doing. The idea that Pastor Tim would not get heavily leaned on, in response to one of the worst espionage debacles the U.S. has experienced since the Rosenbergs, is kind of crazy, and no, Stan would not be able to protect them. A disaster of this proportions, dead bodies strewn all over the place for years, is going to have completely fresh eyes brought in to examine everything. Pastor Tim is getting interviewed again, and the idea that he'll hold up is really, really, far fetched, especially if he is told that this is his last chance to stay of jail, by telling the truth. Paige is going to be uncovered. 3 Link to comment
Plums June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 why would they have any reason to suspect Pastor Tim? The only way they do that is if Paige admits she told her old church pastor, and I very much doubt that happens. Even if Stan suspects Tim knew something from that phone call from the tone of his voice, he said he didn't know the Jennings all that well because Paige was the one involved in the church, not her parents. Stan reports that conversation to the FBI in their investigation, there's no evidence of any wrongdoing such that they could justify extraditing him to face interrogation. Honestly, the employees of the travel agency and Stan himself will face a lot more scrutiny from the FBI than that Pastor Paige had for a couple years from back when she was in high school. 2 Link to comment
Bannon June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, Plums said: why would they have any reason to suspect Pastor Tim? The only way they do that is if Paige admits she told her old church pastor, and I very much doubt that happens. Even if Stan suspects Tim knew something from that phone call from the tone of his voice, he said he didn't know the Jennings all that well because Paige was the one involved in the church, not her parents. Stan reports that conversation to the FBI in their investigation, there's no evidence of any wrongdoing such that they could justify extraditing him to face interrogation. Honestly, the employees of the travel agency and Stan himself will face a lot more scrutiny from the FBI than that Pastor Paige had for a couple years from back when she was in high school. I really think you are underestimating the wide ranging nature of an inquiry, after a debacle like this. EVERYTHING in the file, with regard to who and what the Jennings interacted with, is getting a hard look. Thousands upon thousands of agent hours are going to be spent on this. Agents are going to South America, and they are going to make it known to Pastor Tim that this a multiple homicide investigation, with the highest stakes. The World Council of Churches, which is who is now paying Pastor Tim, was known to be heavily infiltrated by the Soviets, and the FBI knows that clergy were being used to help Liz and Phil. The good Pastor is getting looked at hard. The idea that he'll hold up is really far fetched. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Plums said: I think it's a bit disingenuous to accept the premise of this show, which is about two Russian illegals who regularly put their operations and lives on the line by breaking and entering to place bugs, getting into car chases, assassinating targets and leaving trails of dead innocent bystanders in their wake, and oh by the way they live across the street from and are best friends with an FBI counterintelligence agent- things that are blatantly unrealistic and solely there for dramatic purposes, but then absolutely reject the idea that Paige could not possibly withhold information in an interrogation because it's not realistic that the FBI wouldn't pressure her into revealing every last detail she knows. If she was strong enough to get off that train, she's strong enough not to volunteer information the FBI wouldn't even know to ask her about. I would disagree with this a bit because while it's true that there's plenty of things that are unrealistic, when we're talking about Paige we're not talking about realism, we're talking about the character as they've presented her. It's not just about being strong in a generic way. She can show strength by just deciding to go back and face the consequences, which include spilling her guts. There's really nothing about her that says she's stand up to a rough interrogation. There's many reasons for this but the biggest one, imo, is that she has no real thing to draw strength from to do it. Her parents were clear about what they were doing and why and why they had to keep silent. They could do it. What's Paige's reason? Henry? There's no real clear cause and effect there. Henry is innocent regardless and should come through whatever his interrogations get into without being accidentally considered a spy. Loyalty to her parents? We know she can't really stand up for what they were doing because she was in denial about it. That's why when Stan asked her if she knew how many people Soviet operatives had killed she reflexively said, "Sorry!" 59 minutes ago, Plums said: why would they have any reason to suspect Pastor Tim? The only way they do that is if Paige admits she told her old church pastor, and I very much doubt that happens. Even if Stan suspects Tim knew something from that phone call from the tone of his voice, he said he didn't know the Jennings all that well because Paige was the one involved in the church, not her parents. Stan reports that conversation to the FBI in their investigation, there's no evidence of any wrongdoing such that they could justify extraditing him to face interrogation. Honestly, the employees of the travel agency and Stan himself will face a lot more scrutiny from the FBI than that Pastor Paige had for a couple years from back when she was in high school. They would have every reason to suspect Pastor Tim! It'd be shocking if they *didn't* suspect him. He was one of the only people ever to have much to do with the family. (Stan himself thought to call him.) He's got ties to anti-nukes causes and the Sanctuary Movement, he's been arrested for protesting US policy. He moved to Argentina as part of an organization infiltrated by the KGB. (Don't know how much that's known yet, but they already interrogated one priest.) Oh yeah, Pastor Tim would get called in and questioned within an inch of his life. He didn't just know Paige for a couple of years back in high school, he was a political activist who became her mentor and via that became involved with her parents. Faced with crime scene photos surely he'd remember telling Paige that they "had a responsibility" if people were getting hurt. At that point any lies he told would be *just* about saving his own ass and he might consider it his religious duty to sacrifice himself. At best he could maybe tell his wife to try to lie about it and hopefully she would be able to, but that would be hard for her too. Maybe she could channel all the anger she's felt about this for years into a believable performance of being angry at finding out "just now" that Tim was hiding this secret. I wonder if the dude's diaries might even be able to be confiscated if they had enough reason to suspect him--don't know how that law would work. I think Pastor Tim's cozy life is about to implode. (And as it happens...he actually is totally guilty of harboring Soviet spies even if he didn't actually work with them. He was even influenced by shared political beliefs when they brought in that priest.) Edited June 7, 2018 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
Bannon June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I would disagree with this a bit because while it's true that there's plenty of things that are unrealistic, when we're talking about Paige we're not talking about realism, we're talking about the character as they've presented her. It's not just about being strong in a generic way. She can show strength by just deciding to go back and face the consequences, which include spilling her guts. There's really nothing about her that says she's stand up to a rough interrogation. There's many reasons for this but the biggest one, imo, is that she has no real thing to straw strength from to do it. Her parents were clear about what they were doing and why and why they had to keep silent. They could do it. What's Paige's reason? Henry? There's no real clear cause and effect there. Henry is innocent regardless and should come through whatever his interrogations get into without being accidentally considered a spy. Loyalty to her parents? We know she can't really stand up for what they were doing because she was in denial about it. That's why when Stan asked her if she knew how many people Soviet operatives had killed she reflexively said, "Sorry!" They would have every reason to suspect Pastor Tim! It'd be shocking if they *didn't* suspect him. He was one of the only people ever to have much to do with the family. (Stan himself thought to call him.) He's got ties to anti-nukes causes and the Sanctuary Movement, he's been arrested for protesting US policy. He moved to Argentina as part of an organization infiltrated by the KGB. (Don't know how much that's known yet, but they already interrogated one priest.) Oh yeah, Pastor Tim would get called in and questioned within an inch of his life. He didn't just know Paige for a couple of years back in high school, he was a political activist who became her mentor and via that became involved with her parents. Faced with crime scene photos surely he'd remember telling Paige that they "had a responsibility" if people were getting hurt. At that point any lies he told would be *just* about saving his own ass and he might consider it his religious duty to sacrifice himself. At best he could maybe tell his wife to try to lie about it and hopefully she would be able to, but that would be hard for her too. Maybe she could channel all the anger she's felt about this for years into a believable performance of being angry at finding out "just now" that Tim was hiding this secret. I wonder if the dude's diaries might even be able to be confiscated if they had enough reason to suspect him--don't know how that law would work. I think Pastor Tim's cozy life is about to implode. (And as it happens...he actually is totally guilty of harboring Soviet spies even if he didn't actually work with them. He was even influenced by shared political beliefs when they brought in that priest.) Toss in what I noted above, that it's a known Soviet infiltrated group, The World Council of Churches, which is paying for Pastor Tim's Excellent South American Adventure, and the idea that he doesn't get put in a vise is really kind of nuts. You think Tim's wife is going to stay quiet, if the FBI says "Last chance to talk about everything and get immunity. After that, everything's at risk, including the chance to raise your child."? 1 Link to comment
Razzberry June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 Page will sing like a bird, do her time and at least be protected from assassination. Her face at the end was inscrutable, a total blank. 1 Link to comment
Bannon June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, Bannon said: Toss in what I noted above, that it's a known Soviet infiltrated group, The World Council of Churches, which is paying for Pastor Tim's Excellent South American Adventure, and the idea that he doesn't get put in a vise is really kind of nuts. You think Tim's wife is going to stay quiet, if the FBI says "Last chance to talk about everything and get immunity. After that, everything's at risk, including the chance to raise your child."? Actually, now that I think about it, it wouldn't be out of character for the FBI to say to The Good Pastor, "Ya' know, if you do know more about Liz and Phil than you are telling us, you're kind of lucky the KGB has't given you a .22 caliber scalp massage. Shame we didn't make any effort to conceal from your employer that we were coming to visit you, and in fact we let them know just before we showed up at your door that we were going to talk to you. It might be unfortunate if that filtered back to the KGB. Say, do you think you, and your wife and child, might want to come back to the States with us, on our government jet? That'll give us several hours to revisit your relationship with the Jennings!" 2 Link to comment
Plums June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: They would have every reason to suspect Pastor Tim! It'd be shocking if they *didn't* suspect him. He was one of the only people ever to have much to do with the family. (Stan himself thought to call him.) He's got ties to anti-nukes causes and the Sanctuary Movement, he's been arrested for protesting US policy. He moved to Argentina as part of an organization infiltrated by the KGB. (Don't know how much that's known yet, but they already interrogated one priest.) Oh yeah, Pastor Tim would get called in and questioned within an inch of his life. He didn't just know Paige for a couple of years back in high school, he was a political activist who became her mentor and via that became involved with her parents. Faced with crime scene photos surely he'd remember telling Paige that they "had a responsibility" if people were getting hurt. At that point any lies he told would be *just* about saving his own ass and he might consider it his religious duty to sacrifice himself. At best he could maybe tell his wife to try to lie about it and hopefully she would be able to, but that would be hard for her too. Maybe she could channel all the anger she's felt about this for years into a believable performance of being angry at finding out "just now" that Tim was hiding this secret. I wonder if the dude's diaries might even be able to be confiscated if they had enough reason to suspect him--don't know how that law would work. I think Pastor Tim's cozy life is about to implode. (And as it happens...he actually is totally guilty of harboring Soviet spies even if he didn't actually work with them. He was even influenced by shared political beliefs when they brought in that priest.) oh well when you put it all together like that, you're probably right that they'll question him, but my interpretation of what will happen based on the feeling of the end of the show is that the most Paige ever fesses up to his knowing and keeping the secret, so they can never actually pin anything on the Tims even if he looks suspicious. He already escalated from not turning them in to lying once to the FBI. In for a penny, in for a pound. In my mind, I don't see Paige going back to face the music. She's going back because her life is there and her brother is there, and in consequence she'll have to face questioning, but my interpretation of her character is that she'll be able to tell the almost whole truth and not implicate the Tims at all. imo, the wildcard here is Alice. I can see Paige and Tim covering up him knowing, but with her, lol nah. Someone from the FBI would call her and say "Hello Mrs. Tim. I'm Agent Such and Blah from the Federal Bureau of Invest-" "OH MY GOD IS THIS ABOUT PAIGE'S AWFUL SPY PARENTS!??!" 2 Link to comment
benteen June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 5 hours ago, hellmouse said: I think the writers intended the very thing that frustrates you and many others - they left "what happens" open-ended. The thing they were careful to show was the status of relationships: who is together, who is alone, etc. I would love to know what they think will happen to each character, but for me, it also is very true to my experience watching the show to not know what happens next. For me, it's consistent with the tone of this particular show. I forget which article I read, but I will look for it - it was about the different types of series finales and the frustration/satisfaction that each provokes in the viewer (and of course, all viewers are different). I think the examples it cited were shows like Six Feet Under, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos. I will post it if I can find it! I wasn't expecting everyone's fate would be resolved. But I am disappointed that we didn't get a flash forward to see the reactions of Philip and especially Elizabeth to the fall of the Soviet Union. I was positive the show would do this but it didn't happen. I feel the audience was cheated not to see Henry's reaction other than a silent scene during a music montage. I wish we could have seen more of the fallout. There also should have been more of a reckoning for the murder spree that Elizabeth committed in the final season. Why have it if it wasn't going to explode in her face? 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Bannon said: Toss in what I noted above, that it's a known Soviet infiltrated group, The World Council of Churches, which is paying for Pastor Tim's Excellent South American Adventure, and the idea that he doesn't get put in a vise is really kind of nuts. You think Tim's wife is going to stay quiet, if the FBI says "Last chance to talk about everything and get immunity. After that, everything's at risk, including the chance to raise your child."? I wasn't sure how much it was known at that time how much it was infiltrated but yeah, if that's common knowledge? He's even more toast. It's not even like it's an accident. The KGB *did* get him that job. They were protecting him because Paige's parents said that would help recruit Paige. LOL. I just remembered that if Paige was really telling them everything and they asked about Pastor Tim she might just mention that he's the guy who originally gave her Marx to read. I have a feeling that when the Feds show up Tim might finally realize that he's not really the one in the family who has a clue and allow Alice to take over the way she's probably wanted to do for years. She'll tell him to tell everything he knows--and if he's worried about Paige she'll just reassure him that she'll be fine since after all *they* don't know she was a spy. He'll protect his own family this time. Because I doubt he'd be able to sacrifice himself without getting them in trouble. Quote Actually, now that I think about it, it wouldn't be out of character for the FBI to say to The Good Pastor, "Ya' know, if you do know more about Liz and Phil than you are telling us, you're kind of lucky the KGB has't given you a .22 caliber scalp massage. Shame we didn't make any effort to conceal from your employer that we were coming to visit you, and in fact we let them know just before we showed up at your door that we were going to talk to you. It might be unfortunate if that filtered back to the KGB. Say, do you think you, and your wife and child, might want to come back to the States with us, on our government jet? That'll give us several hours to revisit your relationship with the Jennings!" OMG, yes, that's totally happening. Tim was the first person Stan thought to call and even to him it's not like Tim was proving himself to be a great liar. He didn't crack or anything, but it's not like he had a story in place the way somebody like Philip would have. Neither Tim nor Paige are prepared to cover up for murder or have worked out exactly how they're pretending their life has worked. Also Paige has a roommate that we never saw but would maybe know that she spent a hell of a lot of time with her mother for a sophomore in college. Or at least spent a lot of nights out late without any other friends her own age, much like her parents did? And did they mention she once punched out two guys in front of a crowd? I doubt Paige is aware of any of this since throughout the season she didn't understand why it was so dangerous. Edited June 7, 2018 by sistermagpie 2 Link to comment
Bannon June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I wasn't sure how much it was known at that time how much it was infiltrated but yeah, if that's common knowledge? He's even more toast. It's not even like it's an accident. The KGB *did* get him that job. They were protecting him because Paige's parents said that would help recruit Paige. LOL. I just remembered that if Paige was really telling them everything and they asked about Pastor Tim she might just mention that he's the guy who originally gave her Marx to read. I have a feeling that when the Feds show up Tim might finally realize that he's not really the one in the family who has a clue and allow Alice to take over the way she's probably wanted to do for years. She'll tell him to tell everything he knows--and if he's worried about Paige she'll just reassure him that she'll be fine since after all *they* don't know she was a spy. He'll protect his own family this time. Because I doubt he'd be able to sacrifice himself without getting them in trouble. OMG, yes, that's totally happening. Tim was the first person Stan thought to call and even to him it's not like Tim was proving himself to be a great liar. He didn't crack or anything, but it's not like he had a story in place the way somebody like Philip would have. Neither Tim nor Paige are prepared to cover up for murder or have worked out exactly how they're pretending their life has worked. Also Paige has a roommate that we never saw but would maybe know that she spent a hell of a lot of time with her mother for a sophomore in college. Or at least spent a lot of nights out late without any other friends her own age, much like her parents did? And did they mention she once punched out two guys in front of a crowd? I doubt Paige is aware of any of this since throughout the season she didn't understand why it was so dangerous. It wasn't common knowedge to the general public in '87 that the World Council of Churches was a Soviet front group, but the FBI and CIA certainly had good reason to think it very likely. Nobody in those two agencies was surprised once it was 100% confirmed after '91. 2 Link to comment
Erin9 June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, benteen said: I wasn't expecting everyone's fate would be resolved. But I am disappointed that we didn't get a flash forward to see the reactions of Philip and especially Elizabeth to the fall of the Soviet Union. I was positive the show would do this but it didn't happen. I feel the audience was cheated not to see Henry's reaction other than a silent scene during a music montage. I wish we could have seen more of the fallout. There also should have been more of a reckoning for the murder spree that Elizabeth committed in the final season. Why have it if it wasn't going to explode in her face? Given that this was the finale, I get choosing to not do much with Henry’s reaction. His initial reaction would just be shock, anger, hurt, etc. Now if a member of his family told him, I would respond differently. But it was Stan. So- the musical montage was fine imo. If they wanted to show how Henry processed the truth differently from Paige, they needed to have him in the know a long time ago. Which I would have liked. But, oh well. Didn’t Elizabeth’s murder spree lead the FBI to their door more or less? Preety sure the warehouse fiasco opened that door. I think it did explode in her face. She just doesn’t know it. And- it was suggested in another thread, that all those murders allowed her to be more open to what Philip was saying about thinking before doing. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, Erin9 said: Didn’t Elizabeth’s murder spree lead the FBI to their door more or less? Preety sure the warehouse fiasco opened that door. I think it did explode in her face. She just doesn’t know it. And- it was suggested in another thread, that all those murders allowed her to be more open to what Philip was saying about thinking before doing. Yup. That was totally what killed them. Not even just all the murders but the Mexico City plot. They figured out they were looking for that sensor, which led them to Harvest, which led them to Father Andrei, which led them straight to P&E. She was criticizing Philip for not doing anything while unwittingly exposing the whole operation. 10 minutes ago, Bannon said: It wasn't common knowedge to the general public in '87 that the World Council of Churches was a Soviet front group, but the FBI and CIA certainly had good reason to think it very likely. Nobody in those two agencies was surprised once it was 100% confirmed after '91. That's what I was wondering, if the government agencies would know it. Tim's a sitting duck. He'll probably soon find out that Philip and Elizabeth placed him in Argentina. He didn't get picked for the job for his abilities. And he might suspect--and eventually have it confirmed--that it was Paige who approved of the plan. Given what he says in his diary he might not be so wedded to the idea that she's too pure and innocent to be in on that. 5 minutes ago, Erin9 said: Given that this was the finale, I get choosing to not do much with Henry’s reaction. His initial reaction would just be shock, anger, hurt, etc. Now if a member of his family told him, I would respond differently. But it was Stan. So- the musical montage was fine imo. If they wanted to show how Henry processed the truth differently from Paige, they needed to have him in the know a long time ago. Which I would have liked. But, oh well. Exactly. The truth is, the show ended without Henry ever knowing. Whatever weirdness he sensed simply gave him the self-preservation instinct to get away from it and love his family from a safe distance. The last scene we see of him he hasn't even gotten to where Paige was in the "speak Russian" scene yet. But in his own way he'd been preparing for it, whatever it was, by building a life raft as best he could and his parents recognized that. 2 Link to comment
Bannon June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 11 minutes ago, Erin9 said: Given that this was the finale, I get choosing to not do much with Henry’s reaction. His initial reaction would just be shock, anger, hurt, etc. Now if a member of his family told him, I would respond differently. But it was Stan. So- the musical montage was fine imo. If they wanted to show how Henry processed the truth differently from Paige, they needed to have him in the know a long time ago. Which I would have liked. But, oh well. Didn’t Elizabeth’s murder spree lead the FBI to their door more or less? Preety sure the warehouse fiasco opened that door. I think it did explode in her face. She just doesn’t know it. And- it was suggested in another thread, that all those murders allowed her to be more open to what Philip was saying about thinking before doing. Yeah, they finally had some logical consequences to murderpalooza, but it was very delayed and muted, because the writers so desperately wanted to write their corny Solitary Stan & The KGB Trio scene in the garage. So we couldn't have an quick positive id of Phil in the park, abetted by an extra 500 FBI agents working the case, or having Stan make a few phone calls that puts Liz and Phil in an even more suspicious light, resulting in an entire FBI tean staking out Paige's dormitory. They decided what scene they wanted, and bent their universe to produce that scene. I usually dislike that sort of thing, and did in this instance. 2 Link to comment
hellmouse June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 I just realized that Paige will probably be able to identify the headless woman for the FBI. She knows Marilyn died in the Harvest op in Chicago. If she sees that picture... oh my. She'll know that one of her parents chopped off someone's head and hands. Talk about a wake up call. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, hellmouse said: I just realized that Paige will probably be able to identify the headless woman for the FBI. She knows Marilyn died in the Harvest op in Chicago. If she sees that picture... oh my. She'll know that one of her parents chopped off someone's head and hands. Talk about a wake up call. And no one there to explain to her that sometimes after people die heroically they get depressed and chop off their own head and hands. No one can explain why they do it, but she's sure her mom tried to stop them. 5 Link to comment
Umbelina June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 4 minutes ago, hellmouse said: I just realized that Paige will probably be able to identify the headless woman for the FBI. She knows Marilyn died in the Harvest op in Chicago. If she sees that picture... oh my. She'll know that one of her parents chopped off someone's head and hands. Talk about a wake up call. Yes, I said that long ago. There is a lot more that Paige knows that she probably doesn't even realize she knows. It's how cases are built, tiny bits of information leading to more questions and more information. Knowing Claudia is also huge, and certainly everything they find in the garage will be important, the safe house, the black dude Gabe recruited, she also heard her father accuse Renee of being a spy, several cases solved, the warehouse, the General, hell, probably even the sailor, and with prints from their house, probably even more. 1 Link to comment
companionenvy June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: I would disagree with this a bit because while it's true that there's plenty of things that are unrealistic, when we're talking about Paige we're not talking about realism, we're talking about the character as they've presented her. I would have agreed with you, except I think Paige undergoes a substantial change in the finale. The Paige we've been watching for the past few seasons would never have gotten off that train - but I bought the change because there was a clear reason for it: she's just been disillusioned about the spy life that she has romanticized, about the nature of her family (when she realizes they are going to leave Henry), and about the idea that life is going to continue as normal, just with extra espionage. I don't know what Paige Jennings does after that revelation, because she isn't quite the same Paige Jennings we've been watching. 3 hours ago, Erin9 said: nothing was left off the table At the risk of repeating myself from the episode thread, I actually think some things were left off the table by the tone of the episode, and what the show chose to include and not to include. The obvious example is Oleg: the writers specifically included a scene in which Oleg's father floats the possibility of a prisoner exchange and Gorbachev's people getting Oleg out, and Arkady shuts it down. In RL terms, the political situation is changing and maybe Oleg's situation changes with it, but in narrative terms, that means Oleg serves a substantial sentence. Here's where I see the other characters, based on the finale: Philip and Elizabeth - There is no suggestion they're in danger from the coup proponents, so they survive. We see the formal affirmation of their relationship via the wedding rings, so they stay together. We know that Philip is already desperately disillusioned about all they've done, and Elizabeth is on her way; what we know about Russia's future is likely to exacerbate this. The loss of Paige and Henry is so crucial to the feel of the ending that, as with Oleg, I don't feel authorized to assume that the family will reunite once things open up. I can go so far as to imagine minimal contact, maybe a cathartic final encounter. But not weekly skype dates and periodic meet-ups in neutral countries. Best case scenario, while P&E will always mourn the loss of their relationship with their children, and will remain haunted by their career and its legacy, they find some other sources of meaning and happiness- their marriage, maybe contact with Philip's remaining family and Gabriel, non-KGB related jobs (maybe teaching English), more modest ways of helping rebuild Russian society. Worst case, they stay together and have some semblance of a functional life but are pretty desperately unhappy. They never really fit back in society, and maybe even don't fully escape the KGB-life, getting recruited into jobs training future spies. Stan - He and Adherholt are last seen having a conversation in which Stan acquits himself well, so I don't think his role in the Jennings' escape becomes known. Both Paige's request and his scene with Henry at school establish that he is going to have some role in Henry's life. Philip's warning about Renee, and his final look at her, suggests that marriage is probably doomed. While practically, if Renee is a spy, he's in all kinds of possible danger and disgrace down the road, the show emphasized the poisoning of their relationship rather than the practical danger for Stan, so I don't think he winds up dead at her hands - especially as I think that anything really terrible that happens to Stan has to come at least a few years down the road, given the strong suggestions that he's going to play a role in helping Henry. I could see him resigning from the FBI, or just going back to the drug crimes division. He's going to be haunted by what he's done. Ultimately, they leave him in a place that to me indicates a largely emotionally unhappy ending, but not a dramatically tragic one. Henry - Is going to be OK. The season took great pains to establish that he was really, really good at overcoming obstacles and planning for the future, and the finale, as I said above, set the seeds for Stan to offer help. He will be emotionally devastated at first, and on some level he will of course never recover from what his parents did, but he has precisely the skills and personality to allow him to cope. I'm sure the FBI will question him, and will be watching, and he'll face skepticism from others, but I don't think he's going to face total ostracism. At worst, the FBI may suspect that he knew and was at St. Edwards to develop connections with influential people; given his age and his time at boarding school, it wouldn't make sense to believe that he was working as a spy. The average person may wonder if he knew, but will be sympathetic to the idea that even if he did, it would be really, really hard to turn in your parents. Some people will avoid him, at least at first; others will be sympathetic, and might even offer help. Some future possibilities -- i.e, a career in government or law enforcement, maybe a top university -- will be closed off to him, but he'll likely find success in business or high tech. Paige - She's the biggest question mark for me. P&E do not contemplate the possibility that she is in danger of prison, so I don't think we're really supposed to consider it seriously either. If the show had wanted us to, they could easily have ended with her in custody, or turning herself in. The show also did not show her seeking out Henry, whose last scene is with Stan, so I don't see her as a driving force in Henry's life. I certainly can't see her wanting anything else to do with the KGB, or they with her. Beyond that, I think the future is genuinely ambiguous. One possibility is that she sticks around, cuts a deal to avoid prison or weathers questioning well enough that they don't prosecute (the former is more likely than the latter, especially given the Tims), and maintains a relationship with Henry - although again, I don't see them living under one roof or becoming incredibly close in the wake of the betrayal. A combination of his awareness that Paige did know (I think she would tell him this) and Paige's own messed up mental state would, I think, militate against that. Another possibility is that she, like Claudia before her, is about to get out of town - she has limited resources, but plenty of undocumented people manage to survive in America. In either case, I think she winds up living a fairly lonely and economically marginal life; there is no scenario where I can see her finding a way to stay at GW or working her way up to some kind of professional life. She's looking at jobs like waitress, au pair, etc, and will always find it difficult to connect with people. Pastor Tim - Managed to survive the series, which means he will be the last person standing after the nuclear apocalypse hits us sometime around the year 2020. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, companionenvy said: I would have agreed with you, except I think Paige undergoes a substantial change in the finale. The Paige we've been watching for the past few seasons would never have gotten off that train - but I bought the change because there was a clear reason for it: she's just been disillusioned about the spy life that she has romanticized, about the nature of her family (when she realizes they are going to leave Henry), and about the idea that life is going to continue as normal, just with extra espionage. I don't know what Paige Jennings does after that revelation, because she isn't quite the same Paige Jennings we've been watching. I agree there's a big change. It's quite possible a chance in the opposite direction, though. That's the way that is most consistent to me, though of course that's not on the show. To me her getting off the train means rejecting the lies, the same direction she was heading in earlier. It's not her finally becoming as tough about it as her parents. She's trying to find her own true self at last. It seems like a totally different decision than being able to formulate a whole story in her head with no holes that she's going to stick to in the face of prolonged interrogation from people who know way more about things than she does. Even people who are innocent have been known to crack under the kind of scrutiny she would be in for. It's not just a case of being able to lie or not. This isn't just them asking her if she was ever a spy and her saying nope, she wasn't over and over. The level of strength Paige potentially discovered that got her off the train could, imo, see her through the difficult process of dealing with the fallout of things and trying to cut a deal. I can see her not going to jail. But her being able to lie her way through it is a change more on the level of her getting superpowers to me. It's a different kind of strength and totally new skills. It would be like Martha getting off the train and being able to beat up guys like Elizabeth can. 3 Link to comment
Plums June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 (edited) I'm still on the level of thinking they'd pin her for spying and treason is overestimating what the FBI would ask her in the universe of this show. There are so many truthful things Paige can draw on as the extent of her experience that would make her appear more on the innocent side of the sliding scale of guilt and innocence. The constant pressure her parents put her under to keep their secret was extremely damaging to her, finding out her entire life and what she always thought she knew about her parents were lies was extremely damaging to her, her mother took her to meet her russian grandmother once, her mother taught her self defense after getting mugged traumatized her, which led to her growing closer to her mother, she met her mother's handler, who was a cool, nice old lady named Claudia, and they would spend afternoons talking about life in the Soviet Union and their perspective on the world and history, and we would watch Russian movies and TV and listen to Russian music and cook Russian food together. They would ask me what my professors were saying about the Soviet Union in my poli sci classes. No, they never told me any details about their operations except this one time when they were trying to stop the US government from creating a famine in Russia. I know my dad wasn't working as a spy for the past three years except for going to Chicago after my mother went there. No, I never gave my parents classified information or anything like that. I think my mom and Claudia eventually wanted me to get a job in the state department though. Like, there's a ton of stuff she could say that's mostly innocuous, and dropping a bombshell about how she'd obviously been getting groomed by her mother to become a spy is pretty attention grabbing all by itself. It's pretty believable to me that she would be able to lie about the details she would have to lie about to stay out of serious trouble or cover for Pastor Tim if she wanted to. I could easily see her getting though an interrogation without admitting she took pictures or was on surveillance teams for her mother's operations, especially if she talks about all this other stuff. It's not a laundry list of things she has to lie about. Edited June 7, 2018 by Plums clarify meaning 1 Link to comment
suomi June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 5 hours ago, Razzberry said: They themselves didn't think twice about killing an innocent witness, so I don't think the KGB would hesitate to eliminate Paige, making it look like an accident or suicide. Or an "overdose," like Vlad's wife. 1 Link to comment
suomi June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 I don't see Paige as having an epiphany. I don't see her as having the life experience or critical thinking skills to recognize the very, very serious outcome of her decision. I see her as being clueless about and totally unprepared for what lies ahead of her. She doesn't realize that she jumped from the frying pan into the fire. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Plums said: she met her mother's handler, who was a cool, nice old lady named Claudia, and they would spend afternoons talking about life in the Soviet Union and their perspective on the world and history, and we would watch Russian movies and TV and listen to Russian music and cook Russian food together Isn't this already admitting to espionage? The FBI is not going to believe that a KGB officer and her officer handler are just spending afternoons talking to a teenager about "their perspective" and life in the Soviet Union unless they're getting something out of it. They're probably not going to be meeting with her regularly if they don't have some reason so trust her either. And why is she agreeing to meet with them anyway? American citizens do not hang out with KGB operatives and chat about what their professors are saying at school just because they're not giving them classified information. (Which they know she wouldn't have anyway.) They wanted her to get a job in the State Department? And Paige is pretending she doesn't understand why that is? Perhaps she even already did apply for that internship knowing how much the two KGB officers like to hear about her day? 1 hour ago, Plums said: Like, there's a ton of stuff she could say that's mostly innocuous, and dropping a bombshell about how she'd obviously been getting groomed by her mother to become a spy is pretty attention grabbing all by itself. It's pretty believable to me that she would be able to lie about the details she would have to lie about to stay out of serious trouble or cover for Pastor Tim if she wanted to. I could easily see her getting though an interrogation without admitting she took pictures or was on surveillance teams for her mother's operations, especially if she talks about all this other stuff. It's not a laundry list of things she has to lie about. None of this stuff is innocuous for somebody her age. If she was 8 years old, maybe. Not a 19 year old college sophomore. College students would totally be considered ripe for recruitment and the FBI would know it. She's too old to play too dumb. Paige might not think she has a laundry list of things she has to lie about but that's only because she's got no idea what the FBI would come at her with. She doesn't just get to say something like "Oh, my mom just likes to talk about the Soviet perspective on things and cook" and they just write that down as her answer. She'd be badgered on every detail and would slip up. They'd be talking to everyone she knew and having to explain her schedule. Probably explain times she was seen places she wasn't aware she was noticed. Probably asked about little things people remembered her saying, the fact that she didn't really seem close to anybody. Explain why she's taking every single class she's taking. Explain these things over and over and always keep her story straight. If they know Paige knows what her parents were--which they probably will, especially after the Tims crack--the fact that she continued to stick so close to home even after going to college requires defending. Anybody looking at her life would describe her as someone who was especially close to her parents, the Soviet spies, especially her mother. A lot of these questions would be things she hadn't thought of before because they'd be surprises--this is a person who responded to being asked by the FBI where she was going with her parents by saying she had a stomachache. Quote Or an "overdose," like Vlad's wife. Nitpick--you mean Robert's wife. Edited June 7, 2018 by sistermagpie 2 Link to comment
companionenvy June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 To be fair to both perspectives, one thing that throws everything off is that the actual spycraft Paige was doing never actually made sense for someone in her position - but the show didn't acknowledge this. It should actually be plausible for the FBI not to consider that Paige might have been playing lookout on murder scenes because that simply isn't consistent with someone who you're grooming to be a deep-cover operative hopefully embedded in an important government agency. Pro-Soviet propaganda plus training would make a lot of sense as handling for someone in that position. But the show didn't seem to think it was bizarre for Paige to be on actual missions, so I guess their version of the FBI wouldn't, either. In which case I still think that Paige might do better than expected if the goal isn't to play innocent, but to play guilty of little enough that a deal to avoid prison stays on the table (which, IMO, it might even if they did know everything). They're obviously going to know that she knew about her parents, and I can't imagine her not being forced to admit that she had, in principle, agreed to join them, and had positioned herself accordingly. But it isn't outside the realm of possibility that she might be able to keep her mouth shut and her story straight when it came to things like whether or not she was accessory to a murder. And again, even if she told the whole truth, I think the FBI might decide that getting the intel Paige could provide was more important than prosecuting a 19 year old getaway driver, no matter how heinous the crime involved. Link to comment
suomi June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 Nina freaked about her polygraph test and she was a grown-ass seasoned and experienced triple agent. Paige won't be prepped/advised by someone like Oleg and will hyperventilate and pee down her own leg when it's her turn. 2 Link to comment
Erin9 June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 (edited) @companionenvy I’ve contradicted myself a bit over the last week. Lol Personally- I think some things can be inferred or believed based on the tone or specific events. For instance, P&E stay together. Henry will stay in school. Renee is a spy. I think P/E are safe. But- I think they leave things open enough for you to wonder. Or at least effectively argue the opposite point, whether I agree or not. I know I’ve read worst case scenarios with Henry turning to drugs or something. For instance- I think P and E think they’ll never see/talk to their kids again. They had to leave America, and that’s it. So- that’s where the dialogue went in the last episode straight through to the end. They think this is it. They also think Henry getting blindsided will be seen by him as unforgivable. And all of this is supposed to let us know that they are paying. The only real certainty based on what we know of history? The possibility of seeing each other exists. The USSR falls. They would have a lot to work though. Would probably always have a complicated relationship. And won’t live in the same country. But I don’t actually think this was it. Call me an optimist. Though really knowing is impossible. It’s impossible to predict what people will think or feel in 1 year, 5 years etc. Look at Elizabeth and Philip. They changed a lot. But with the collapse of the USSR and time, I think so. If nothing else, Henry might initially call just to yell, that leads to talking.....Who knows? While there aren’t that many kids who can claim their parents were Russian spies pretending to be Americans, they’re far from the first or last kid that got lied to about something fundamental. And- eventually moved forward. People do it. This family wouldn’t be the family at McDonalds, but they could build something. No where do I mean to suggest it would be easy. But I’d rather not assume something so sad for everyone involved. Because we don’t really know. We know P/E are separated from their kids and there is a lot of water under the bridge. So in my mind, they work through things at some point. Edited June 7, 2018 by Erin9 4 Link to comment
companionenvy June 7, 2018 Share June 7, 2018 29 minutes ago, Erin9 said: For instance- I think P and E think they’ll never see/talk to their kids again. They had to leave America, and that’s it. So- that’s where the dialogue went in the last episode straight through to the end. They think this is it. They also think Henry getting blindsided will be seen by him as unforgivable. And all of this is supposed to let us know that they are paying. The only real certainty based on what we know of history? The possibility of seeing each other exists. The USSR falls. They would have a lot to work though. Would probably always have a complicated relationship. And won’t live in the same country. But I don’t actually think this was it. Call me an optimist. Though really knowing is impossible. It’s impossible to predict what people will think or feel in 1 year, 5 years etc. Look at Elizabeth and Philip. They changed a lot. I think the door is certainly open for them to communicate again in a minimal way, and maybe to meet once or twice again in their lives. But I still believe that more than that would violate the feel of this finale. That it might be historically possible doesn't change that - it isn't like the opening of the borders guarantees that two ex-spies are going to reestablish meaningful contact with the children they haven't seen for at least several years, both of whom has significant reason to feel ambivalent about them, who may or may not be living under the same names, and who may or may not still be under some form of surveillance. In which case P&E getting in touch could actually be dangerous for them. So, as it isn't historically implausible to believe that they Jenningses don't reestablish a meaningful family relationship, I default to the assumption that they don't. Sorry for the pessimism... 1 Link to comment
Erin9 June 8, 2018 Share June 8, 2018 13 minutes ago, companionenvy said: I think the door is certainly open for them to communicate again in a minimal way, and maybe to meet once or twice again in their lives. But I still believe that more than that would violate the feel of this finale. That it might be historically possible doesn't change that - it isn't like the opening of the borders guarantees that two ex-spies are going to reestablish meaningful contact with the children they haven't seen for at least several years, both of whom has significant reason to feel ambivalent about them, who may or may not be living under the same names, and who may or may not still be under some form of surveillance. In which case P&E getting in touch could actually be dangerous for them. So, as it isn't historically implausible to believe that they Jenningses don't reestablish a meaningful family relationship, I default to the assumption that they don't. Sorry for the pessimism... And that’s valid. I look at it more as a way to show punishment and what P/E think at the time. And I really think the writers liked the idea of American kids stay in America. Russian parents go back to Russia as they started- just with more mileage. I just look at it as more temporary. They can talk on the phone too. Obviously- they won’t see each other regularly. They will always pay a price of some kind for this. I think they work through things and have a meaningful relationship. I also tend to think Paige and Henry would have a lot of personal questions to ask. Paige focused so much on what most affected her- the spy secret. She rarely asked anything personal. IMO- someday, both of them will have personal questions to ask. It’s natural. And I would hope with some time they’d realize there was no intent to hurt them. 1 Link to comment
hellmouse June 8, 2018 Share June 8, 2018 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I agree there's a big change. It's quite possible a chance in the opposite direction, though. That's the way that is most consistent to me, though of course that's not on the show. To me her getting off the train means rejecting the lies, the same direction she was heading in earlier. It's not her finally becoming as tough about it as her parents. She's trying to find her own true self at last. It seems like a totally different decision than being able to formulate a whole story in her head with no holes that she's going to stick to in the face of prolonged interrogation from people who know way more about things than she does. Even people who are innocent have been known to crack under the kind of scrutiny she would be in for. It's not just a case of being able to lie or not. This isn't just them asking her if she was ever a spy and her saying nope, she wasn't over and over. The level of strength Paige potentially discovered that got her off the train could, imo, see her through the difficult process of dealing with the fallout of things and trying to cut a deal. I can see her not going to jail. But her being able to lie her way through it is a change more on the level of her getting superpowers to me. It's a different kind of strength and totally new skills. It would be like Martha getting off the train and being able to beat up guys like Elizabeth can. I could see Paige wanting to be honest with the authorities as a way of punishing herself. I would imagine that she feels a lot of guilt mixed in with anger and sadness. Deciding to just be honest about everything, even if means going to jail, would be appealing to the judgmental part of herself. It would be a way to feel good and horrible at the same time. 1 Link to comment
suomi June 8, 2018 Share June 8, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, hellmouse said: I could see Paige wanting to be honest with the authorities as a way of punishing herself. I would imagine that she feels a lot of guilt mixed in with anger and sadness. Deciding to just be honest about everything, even if means going to jail, would be appealing to the judgmental part of herself. It would be a way to feel good and horrible at the same time. Deciding to just be honest about everything, even if means going to jail, would be appealing to the judgmental religious part of herself. Paige was portrayed as someone who seeks and values the security of morality. Her church family filled an emptiness inside her; their teachings remain a part of who she became even though she was able to file away those teachings when she chose the path offered by her mother. Interrogators want to break suspects and they do not hesitate to use methods that increase their chances of success. They will hit her hard with the moral implications of her actions because that is the way to break her. Her mother is gone now and so are the life and the rewards her mother offered to her. That path is closed to her. She would see cooperating with the Feds as being the way to atone for her sins, to seek absolution and salvation. Edited June 8, 2018 by suomi 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 8, 2018 Share June 8, 2018 37 minutes ago, hellmouse said: I could see Paige wanting to be honest with the authorities as a way of punishing herself. I would imagine that she feels a lot of guilt mixed in with anger and sadness. Deciding to just be honest about everything, even if means going to jail, would be appealing to the judgmental part of herself. It would be a way to feel good and horrible at the same time. 26 minutes ago, suomi said: Deciding to just be honest about everything, even if means going to jail, would be appealing to the judgmental religious part of herself. She would see it as being the way to atone for her sins, to seek absolution and salvation. Also I really don't think you can underestimate the level of safety Paige still feels as a middle class American teenager. Like was said elsewhere, she doesn't realize she jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire. I don't think she'd have a clear idea of the danger of saying many things. The one other time she was honest was to Pastor Tim and she avoided the worst consequences for that. Her only punishment was parents making her keep quiet and spy on the Tims. With her sense of how justice should work I think she could easily believe that telling all she knew would be appreciated by the FBI and not something that would get her into legal trouble. And anyway, she could be right that this is the best way to go. We just should hope she gets a lawyer who would help her use it to her advantage in making a deal. 2 hours ago, companionenvy said: It should actually be plausible for the FBI not to consider that Paige might have been playing lookout on murder scenes because that simply isn't consistent with someone who you're grooming to be a deep-cover operative hopefully embedded in an important government agency. Pro-Soviet propaganda plus training would make a lot of sense as handling for someone in that position. But the show didn't seem to think it was bizarre for Paige to be on actual missions, so I guess their version of the FBI wouldn't, either. In which case I still think that Paige might do better than expected if the goal isn't to play innocent, but to play guilty of little enough that a deal to avoid prison stays on the table (which, IMO, it might even if they did know everything). They're obviously going to know that she knew about her parents, and I can't imagine her not being forced to admit that she had, in principle, agreed to join them, and had positioned herself accordingly. But it isn't outside the realm of possibility that she might be able to keep her mouth shut and her story straight when it came to things like whether or not she was accessory to a murder. One thing that's not helpful for Paige is that this whole season took place in just a few months. October to December. The General and the warehouse murders--two things the FBI has already linked together--didn't happen long ago at all. So it's quite possible they could establish Paige not having an alibi for those nights if her roommate, especially, had some reason to remember that night. Maybe Paige even came home upset after her mother refused to let her spend the night at home. Or maybe Paige had some standing excuse for why she wasn't at home that they could check out--did she ever check out any books at the library? Did people remember her seeing there? I have no idea how they'd check these things but there might be ways. At the very least she probably wouldn't be able to prove she *wasn't* there. I totally see the logic in thinking that somebody you're grooming to be a deep cover agent in the State Department shouldn't be driving lookout cars to deadly break-ins, but if the FBI is considering Paige as a suspect recruit they'd have reason to check her alibi for all those recent crimes. And question her about them. Even being remembered by the diner staff might be trouble. 2 Link to comment
grommit2 June 8, 2018 Share June 8, 2018 (edited) OK...my 2 cents:Paige was easily influenced by anyone with passion, conviction, and vision: Pastor Tim and her Mom. Now she is totally toast: no money, no American ID, (Canadian passport), no job, no college scholarship, no car...just a bottle of vodka. Hiding out in someone else's house. No Russian contacts to save her. The FBI will nab her, after she wipes out several would be attackers. She will eventually talk.Henry will learn of his parent's duplicity, will hate them, will be a confused/angry/lost soul. Smart, but lost. What could be worse than finding out your parents are criminals...no, spies/murderers for the Evil Empire. No jail time, but no private school either. No college. A life of drugs and crime appears on his horizon. Both Philip and Elizabeth lost their children. Devastating. Also, Elizabeth will be filled with despair realizing that everything she worked so hard for is falling apart. Philip is a bit more adaptable...this glasnost thing is not so bad in his book. But, both of them are double targets: by the coup folks for being spies associated with the old failed regime (ouch), and by the anti-coup folks for just about the same reason. Lots of alcoholic sorrow for both. And Stan...good old Stan...he let THREE Russian spies live across from him and then failed to stop them in the garage (Paige will testify to this). Stan goes to Leavenworth for 20 years. Oleg...your friendly neighborhood Russian spy...he will be traded for an American caught up in spying in Russia. Maybe Carrie from Homeland, eh?Igor Oleg's father...more toast. High-level railroad official, but associated with the old regime. Loses no matter who takes over, unless he can escape to some other country. Claudia (the last spy runner): looks like she scooted out, but did she make it back to Russia? To what? Does she have a place in the new regime? If not, she will probably just find a way to survive, because she has terrific skills and hanging in. Martha...geez. They will leave her alone, maybe. Stuck in Russia, making the most of her time as a language teacher. Will the newer regime keep her on the payroll? Wandering the mostly empty shelves of the grocery store. Gorbachev...wow, what a player in history. Moves his country starkly away from its history, sidelines most of the Politburo. Oops....bad move! Loses his job. But survives. Edited June 8, 2018 by grommit2 1 Link to comment
scartact June 8, 2018 Share June 8, 2018 2 hours ago, companionenvy said: I think the door is certainly open for them to communicate again in a minimal way, and maybe to meet once or twice again in their lives. But I still believe that more than that would violate the feel of this finale. That it might be historically possible doesn't change that - it isn't like the opening of the borders guarantees that two ex-spies are going to reestablish meaningful contact with the children they haven't seen for at least several years, both of whom has significant reason to feel ambivalent about them, who may or may not be living under the same names, and who may or may not still be under some form of surveillance. In which case P&E getting in touch could actually be dangerous for them. So, as it isn't historically implausible to believe that they Jenningses don't reestablish a meaningful family relationship, I default to the assumption that they don't. Sorry for the pessimism... Hey, that's why I like the ambiguity of the ending! We can plausibly choose to believe Paige and/or Henry decide not to engage with their parents at all, even after the fall of USSR, or we can imagine a world wherein either of them find a way to rebuild a relationship with their parents (er, depending what kinda shit goes down with Paige and the FBI, as others have been speculating in this thread). I think I just really like that even if history gives us certain inevitabilities, it impacts but does not necessarily predetermine the family's future (as in, when the Soviet Union falls and the borders open, Paige and Henry will reunite with their parents in some capacity; or, after the Soviet Union falls, they will not still choose to engage). I think depending on my state of mind, I move back and forth between what kinds of possibilities exist after that final shot. Link to comment
suomi June 8, 2018 Share June 8, 2018 I could totally get behind the finale being a really, really good next-to-last episode. It would be so hard to Wait Another Week for the last episode but of course I would gladly do it! OMG, the possibilities! What I got from The Americans after 6 years of faithful viewing feels like I bought a Kindle book, got totally immersed in the story and then realized that the last chapter is missing. I would be GD pissed if I called Amazon and was informed that I should figure out the ending for myself! 2 Link to comment
Joe Hellandback June 8, 2018 Share June 8, 2018 Paige; hides out in Claudia's apartment taking drugs and drink until her money runs out, becomes a stripper then prostitute but kills her pimp with the skills her mother taught her when he abuses her and the other girls in his stable. She seeks out Henry and the pair set up home together, leading very ordinary and anonymous lives. Henry; struggles with the reality of what has happened but is aided by Stan, quits school and gets an ordinary job and is quite lost until Paige finds him, helping her and keeping her safe gives him purpose. Philip; splits with Elizabeth and quits the spy business, opens up a successful travel agency in Russia using his experience in the US. Hires a private detective to find his kids and is at least in contact with them by letter. Elizabeth; sides with the Gorbachev faction in Russia and continues to work as a spy. Approaches Philip for help and he agrees only if the FSB make a trade, getting the FBI to drop all charges against Paige so she has a clean slate. The family meet up Berlin, watching Checkpoint Charlie be dismantled, Elizabeth commenting that this is their true legacy. Years later the CIA approach them both to be spies against Putin and whilst Philip refuses at first he eventually relents in return for them being able to return to the US to live with Paige and Henry. Stan; serves out his time in the FBI and retires, finding his girlfriend is not KGB. He works in private security, lives near his son and writes his (heavily redacted) memoires. He helps Anholt and the CIA approach Elizabeth and Philip to be their agents. Oleg; Is released from custody as a gesture of reconciliation to the new regime and joins his father and family in the railroad business Claudia (the last spy runner): is locked up for her role in the abortive coup but is later released and becomes Putin's biggest fan. Martha; is allowed to come home, Anholt and the FBI interrogate her but decide she's not worth prosecuting. Becomes a care assistant at a retirement home. Link to comment
Plums June 11, 2018 Share June 11, 2018 I've gotten so sentimental and indulgent over my fanfic-y future wish fulfillment speculation. I don't actually think anything so nice could ever happen, but I like to imagine a best case scenario anyway. Like, for example I have an image of Henry and Paige eventually overcoming bitterness and becoming healthy, grounded adults in just a few years, and open to reconciliation with their parents enough to reestablish a decent-as-could-be-given-the-circumstance relationship with them, post USSR. I take this view because of how the RL Canadian spy kids feel about their parents. Like, they're bitter about the lies and all the legal shit they now have to contend with, but they still understand their parents were always their parents and that love and basic relationship was never a lie, and they still have strong relationships with them, even with the weirdness of the general situation that they just try to ignore as much as they can. So I like to think Paige and Henry end up in that same kind of place wrt Philip and Elizabeth. The person I worry about the most is Elizabeth, tbh. Like, even though Philip is the one who is going to miss the life he had in America the most, I could see him readjusting as well as he could. But she's not going to take the dissolution of her country and the collapse of communism well AT ALL. Like, she's going to probably be horrified by the stark differences and seeing just how bad things are soon after their arrival, but I see her looking on TV at the Wall coming down, in shock, and just experiencing an existential meltdown. Like, for all the terrible things she did to people, she was able to compartmentalize it when Philip couldn't because she was doing it for The Cause. I can't imagine how awful it could be with all that coming back upon her when the ideals and country she fought for disappears. Her country becomes Russia rather than the USSR, and the eastern bloc devolves into civil war and joins NATO and the EU. And that, combined with being estranged from her children is just too much. So I at least want her to have her children back at some point. I think Philip's family in Moscow will help alleviate some of the pain of the separation, but at the same time make it worse for them, especially Elizabeth. She'll have so many regrets. She'll be like Ericka thinking at the end of her life that the work was all pointless and she should have been spending her time being with family and being happy. So yeah, all my thoughts about the future of these characters end with P&E getting to have their kids back. 3 Link to comment
Razzberry June 11, 2018 Share June 11, 2018 Philip becomes something of a celebrity when he opens a country-themed bar and offers free dance lessons during Happy Hour. 4 Link to comment
Umbelina June 12, 2018 Share June 12, 2018 http://www.indiewire.com/2018/06/the-americans-finale-cast-answers-ending-keri-russell-1201973275/ Quote The ending to “The Americans” is meant to invite questions; more to the point, it’s meant to invite the audience to provide answers themselves. Quote Moderator and Hollywood Reporter critic Tim Goodman asked Matthew Rhys straight-out if he felt Philip was happy to be back in Russia, and the Welsh actor gave an equally candid response. “No,” Rhys said, sporting a scraggly beard and a long-sleeved denim shirt (an unseasonably warm — but very professional — look for the 97-degree day). “In Episode 1, Season 1, [Philip] said ‘Let’s defect.’ From that day, he knew there’s a very loud clock ticking on this one, and he’d like to save our children. He did like America. In regard to the children, it decimated him.” Noah says he just hoped to convey the emotion, and basically isn't speculation, but he added: Quote “If you think about it logically, that’s treason for Philip to do,” Emmerich said. “He’s maybe costing [Renee, a Russian agent] her life for Stan’s sake, and I interpret that as a great act of love and respect.” Quote Later, Emmerich went a bit further. “It’s hard for me to imagine Stan letting that lie,” he said, answering whether or not Stan ever confronts Renee about her potential secret. “He’s pretty shattered in that moment […] but it’s pretty hard for him to leave that alone.” No shit. ITA, there is no way Stan will jeopardize the FBI, even it if means sacrificing himself. I think he confesses to all of it anyway, since Paige WILL spill. He has a better chance at avoiding charges if it comes from him first. Basically, they don't go much further. More blah blah blah about relationships instead of their futures. Link to comment
Umbelina June 12, 2018 Share June 12, 2018 Quote How are Paige and Henry going to get on in the world without their parents? And did you look to real-life examples of children who discovered their parents were spies? Weisberg: What goes on for them from here on out is, in a way, not our business. We came up with this ending before we knew about—have you seen the story about the kids in Canada who are trying to get their Canadian citizenship back, and what’s happened with their family? It’s just emotionally devastating and very resonant. Seriously dudes, shut up. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/05/the-americans-finale-interview-joe-weisberg-joel-fields 1 Link to comment
kokapetl June 12, 2018 Share June 12, 2018 7 hours ago, Razzberry said: Philip becomes something of a celebrity when he opens a country-themed bar and offers free dance lessons during Happy Hour. Phillip made millions during the ‘Achey Breaky’ craze of 1992. 3 Link to comment
SunnyBeBe June 13, 2018 Share June 13, 2018 (edited) I haven't decided if I would like an actual, television Part II of this story. And, if they did one, how it would go, but, I do think about it quite a bit. It's not so straight forward. IMO, it's not likely that the showruners with this project would be interested in a Part II, but, someone else might. If they did, I'd like to see the show setting move much further into the future. So, that the main characters of Paige and Henry would be middle age. We would see their current lives, with flashbacks to important parts. It would include references about their parents and Stan, but, not likely any on screen appearances. Maybe, texts, letters, calls, etc. Depending on where Part II would start up, I could see Henry being played by Simon Baker. I know he's too short, but, he can carry a show and has some mystery and sincerity. For Paige, I'm thinking of Mireille Enos. Edited June 13, 2018 by SunnyBeBe Link to comment
Plums June 13, 2018 Share June 13, 2018 45 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said: For Paige, I'm thinking of Mireille Enos The type of pervasive, persistent melancholy I envision for Paige's future could be perfectly expressed through her. They don't match up physically, but then again, Holly Taylor's coloring has always been too off to believably be the daughter of Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys, so whatever. Link to comment
SunnyBeBe June 13, 2018 Share June 13, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Plums said: The type of pervasive, persistent melancholy I envision for Paige's future could be perfectly expressed through her. They don't match up physically, but then again, Holly Taylor's coloring has always been too off to believably be the daughter of Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys, so whatever. Yes, I get that. I just thought they were similar enough. With Henry being played by Simon....I know they are not similar, but, I just find Simon a good actor and contender for a lead in a show that would need a lot of followers. I think he has quite a fan base. The age is a little off, but, it's not that unusual for siblings who are close in age to catch up with each other when they reach a certain age as mature adults. Edited June 13, 2018 by SunnyBeBe Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 On 6/7/2018 at 5:32 PM, suomi said: Deciding to just be honest about everything, even if means going to jail, would be appealing to the judgmental religious part of herself. Paige was portrayed as someone who seeks and values the security of morality. Her church family filled an emptiness inside her; their teachings remain a part of who she became even though she was able to file away those teachings when she chose the path offered by her mother. Interrogators want to break suspects and they do not hesitate to use methods that increase their chances of success. They will hit her hard with the moral implications of her actions because that is the way to break her. Her mother is gone now and so are the life and the rewards her mother offered to her. That path is closed to her. She would see cooperating with the Feds as being the way to atone for her sins, to seek absolution and salvation. I completely agree. Well said. On 6/7/2018 at 6:24 PM, grommit2 said: OK...my 2 cents:Paige was easily influenced by anyone with passion, conviction, and vision: Pastor Tim and her Mom. Now she is totally toast: no money, no American ID, (Canadian passport), no job, no college scholarship, no car...just a bottle of vodka. Hiding out in someone else's house. No Russian contacts to save her. The FBI will nab her, after she wipes out several would be attackers. She will eventually talk.Henry will learn of his parent's duplicity, will hate them, will be a confused/angry/lost soul. Smart, but lost. What could be worse than finding out your parents are criminals...no, spies/murderers for the Evil Empire. No jail time, but no private school either. No college. A life of drugs and crime appears on his horizon. Both Philip and Elizabeth lost their children. Devastating. Also, Elizabeth will be filled with despair realizing that everything she worked so hard for is falling apart. Philip is a bit more adaptable...this glasnost thing is not so bad in his book. But, both of them are double targets: by the coup folks for being spies associated with the old failed regime (ouch), and by the anti-coup folks for just about the same reason. Lots of alcoholic sorrow for both. And Stan...good old Stan...he let THREE Russian spies live across from him and then failed to stop them in the garage (Paige will testify to this). Stan goes to Leavenworth for 20 years. Oleg...your friendly neighborhood Russian spy...he will be traded for an American caught up in spying in Russia. Maybe Carrie from Homeland, eh?Igor Oleg's father...more toast. High-level railroad official, but associated with the old regime. Loses no matter who takes over, unless he can escape to some other country. Claudia (the last spy runner): looks like she scooted out, but did she make it back to Russia? To what? Does she have a place in the new regime? If not, she will probably just find a way to survive, because she has terrific skills and hanging in. Martha...geez. They will leave her alone, maybe. Stuck in Russia, making the most of her time as a language teacher. Will the newer regime keep her on the payroll? Wandering the mostly empty shelves of the grocery store. Gorbachev...wow, what a player in history. Moves his country starkly away from its history, sidelines most of the Politburo. Oops....bad move! Loses his job. But survives. Loved this! I'd only change Claudia's. Honestly, I can't see any way Claudia won't be completely devastated by the collapse of the Soviet Union. She's been fighting for it for her entire adult life. Even if she doesn't make sure Elizabeth pays for her exposing the Coup back in 1988? When communism and the entire USSR ends, it's hard to picture Claudia not killing the woman directly responsible for the failure of the earlier Coup. After that? It's hard to say if Claudia would kill herself, an old woman, with nothing left to live for, or simply move to Cuba, the only communist country I can picture her living in. She's not going to China, or any of the others that I can think of. On 6/7/2018 at 10:00 PM, suomi said: I could totally get behind the finale being a really, really good next-to-last episode. It would be so hard to Wait Another Week for the last episode but of course I would gladly do it! OMG, the possibilities! What I got from The Americans after 6 years of faithful viewing feels like I bought a Kindle book, got totally immersed in the story and then realized that the last chapter is missing. I would be GD pissed if I called Amazon and was informed that I should figure out the ending for myself! Agree. Also, has anyone counted how much of the finale was played out in total silence. Did Philip and Elizabeth even have a conversation? I would have loved this as a penultimate episode, or possibly even if they extended it another 30 minutes. As a stand alone? Great. As a "finale" after the sets ups going into this finale? Terrible. Cop out. Chickenshit. Lazy. (yes, I'm pissed.) On 6/7/2018 at 12:13 PM, Bannon said: Yeah, they finally had some logical consequences to murderpalooza, but it was very delayed and muted, because the writers so desperately wanted to write their corny Solitary Stan & The KGB Trio scene in the garage. So we couldn't have an quick positive id of Phil in the park, abetted by an extra 500 FBI agents working the case, or having Stan make a few phone calls that puts Liz and Phil in an even more suspicious light, resulting in an entire FBI tean staking out Paige's dormitory. They decided what scene they wanted, and bent their universe to produce that scene. I usually dislike that sort of thing, and did in this instance. Yeah, logic kind of went out the window. I didn't hate the garage scene though, I did hate that Paige witnessed it, because it left no hope for Stan's future. Everything that surrounded it though? Seriously sloppy. Also, Aderholt sent agents to Paige's place as soon as he had the positive ID of Philip and Liz. However, at least a full day later, he hadn't bothered to send agents to Henry's school? HELLO? Just a bit of consistency please, or a smidgen of logic, or standard procedures...something. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 21 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Also, Aderholt sent agents to Paige's place as soon as he had the positive ID of Philip and Liz. However, at least a full day later, he hadn't bothered to send agents to Henry's school? I'm pretty sure he said the agents were already at Henry's school. They said Henry appeared to be the only one there--meaning that the agents were waiting there and at Paige's to see if the parents tried to pick them up. Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I'm pretty sure he said the agents were already at Henry's school. They said Henry appeared to be the only one there--meaning that the agents were waiting there and at Paige's to see if the parents tried to pick them up. How? I'm honestly asking, not being snippy. We WATCH Stan apparently tell Henry after pulling him out of a game. Which by the way, @Bannon is completely correct about, the FBI would never allow that, Stan would be frozen out, and Henry would be told and questioned back at headquarters, or a local office or police station, probably with tapes and cameras. His first reactions would be considered the most truthful. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 4, 2018 Share July 4, 2018 4 hours ago, Umbelina said: How? I'm honestly asking, not being snippy. We WATCH Stan apparently tell Henry after pulling him out of a game. Which by the way, @Bannon is completely correct about, the FBI would never allow that, Stan would be frozen out, and Henry would be told and questioned back at headquarters, or a local office or police station, probably with tapes and cameras. His first reactions would be considered the most truthful. Oh, I totally agree with Bannon about the FBI allowing Stan tell Henry this in private for exactly the reasons you stated. But they did have agents watching Henry at school before Stan got there. Aderholdt tells Stan that they have agents watching the house, the travel agency, Paige's apartment and Henry at school. They sent them all out at the same time. 1 Link to comment
Recommended Posts