S13.E22: Exodus

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Everyone acting in that scene was playing it camp. Ketch. CHARLIE and Cas. At least in the torture sequence.  Look At the false eyelashes and luosticjnon Charlie. Cas' performance and Ketch's were both based on WWIi movie tropes albeit Ketch's,was based on a ""nobler paradigm and Cas on pulp film.  The actors and production sure as hell played it camp. 

It remindrd me of the way Tarentino's military action sequences played in "Inglorious Bastarfs" played... camp and full of tropes... in that film only the scenes with Weiss and Fassbinder worked because the acting was sublime. 

Ketch hit the right time.  No one else did.  Ma

Very deliberate.  Failed. Lmao camp hot mess.

You'll never convince me of that.  Ever. And those quotes of Misha's that @catrox14 found only reinforce my disbelief. And as I commented earlier about another scene, if we have to jump through those kinds of hoops to 'get' what they are selling, then they aren't doing a very good job of it.

9 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Not the same thing as seeing his father for himself which is a vety real human desire every adoptive child would have, even if he were conflicted about it because his dad were Lucifer.

And again, I wasn't saying he shouldn't be allowed to speak with him, but being left alone with him was stupid. To use your adoption metaphor - you wouldn't just let a birth parent alone with a grown child the first time either. And the bottom line is this is LUCIFER and the spawn that is supposed to be the most powerful being in the universe. It's NOT NORMAL or human. And it's not smart to leave all that power alone and unguarded.

Edited May 16, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Not the same thing as seeing his father for himself which is a vety real human desire every adoptive child would have, even if he were conflicted about it because his dad were Lucifer.

Except this is LUCIFER aka Satan aka The Devil himself.  The person who lies about everything. The person who can deceive and manipulate and will never tell Jack the whole truth about himself.  Sure, Lucifer might reveal that he's a liar but Jack already knows his about him. 

They are trying to put a very human situation to an archangel nephelim and it just doesn't work. Even Jack already said, 'TFW is my family and Lucifer means nothing to me" when Dean thought maybe he was going to try and find Lucifer when he was off trying to do that good thing to save Mary. 

PLOT PLOT PLOT   

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except this is LUCIFER aka Satan aka The Devil himself.  The person who lies about everything. The person who can deceive and manipulate and will never tell Jack the whole truth about himself.  Sure, Lucifer might reveal that he's a liar but Jack already knows his about him. 

They are trying to put a very human situation to an archangel nephelim and it just doesn't work. Even Jack already said, 'TFW is my family and Lucifer means nothing to me" when Dean thought maybe he was going to try and find Lucifer when he was off trying to do that good thing to save Mary. 

PLOT PLOT PLOT   

Yep, and letting him 'learn' by experience is pretty friggin' irresponsible when that 'experience' generally involves Lucifer killing people.

[SueB]

Rereading the close-captioning of Misha's SS scene:
- It's not written "German".  It's written 'sadist villain is monologuing'.  Either to be funny or because it's bad writing.
- Misha really seemed to know it was a crap scene.
- Based on the con video, it seems like the decision to go Hitler-class Nazi was done by production vice the writers.  Maybe it was Wright (the director). Maybe wardrobe went nuts -- but the director still bought off on it.  Misha didn't know they were going 'Nazi' until he got to wardrobe.

Random thoughts:
- Misha probably should have pushed back on this rather than go along.  I think he instinctively knew it was bad and did his best but it was ... bad.
- If Wright was going for comedy/camp, it failed.  It was certainly derivative, but this was not the place for funny -- better to use snark in the situation rather than camp.  Which goes back to script -- did BL write the monologuing anticipating Misha doing some scene chewing or did they write it as a serious scene?  I honestly can't tell looking at the wording only.
- Fortunately the character is dead, so we don't have to live with those choices for any other episodes.

[gonzosgirrl]

If it was supposed to be 'camp' and they still had Charlie screaming in agony, then seriously, screw them all with a rusty angel blade.

I don't believe it, and never will.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except Jack spent a lot of time on this side of the AU learning about who his father was. And presumably what he did to Sam? And humanity? And leaving him alone with Lucifer to 'find out for himself' was and is patently stupid. He's the king of lies and manipulation. And even if ALL that weren't true, Mary just hasn't earned the right to talk to Dean like that.

Actually in the real world people tell each other things all of the time without "earning" a right to do so. 

And she is his mother regardless of whether fans like it or not so she can say anything to him. In fact Dean wants her to say anything and everything to him.  She is,what he has been missing his entire life.

And having people tell you things and seeing it for yourself are not the same thing in regards to a parent.  A child will idolize the missing deadbeat father until there comes a point when the child had experienced so much heartbreak as a result of the actions of the deadbeat father that he no longer idolizes him.  Mom knows be is a deadbeat. No amount of mom telling him is going to convince the child that their daddy is a deadbeat.  They have to experience the heartbreak for themselves in their own way.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Actually in the real world people tell each other things all of the time without "earning" a right to do so. 

And she is his mother regardless of whether fans like it or not so she can say anything to him. In fact Dean wants her to say anything and everything to him.  She is,what he has been missing his entire life.

And having people tell you things and seeing it for yourself are not the same thing in regards to a parent.  A child will idolize the missing deadbeat father until there comes a point when the child had experienced so much heartbreak as a result of the actions of the deadbeat father that he no longer idolizes him.  Mom knows be is a deadbeat. No amount of mom telling him is going to convince the chd that their dadfy is a deadbeat.  They have to experience the heartbreak for themselves in their own way.

So when Lucifer hurts or kills someone because they needed to give Jack a chance to know him, Dean will have the right to say I told you so to the bitch.

People keep citing real-world circumstances when we're talking about the most un-real world situation. Lucifer. Lucifer. Lucifer. I don't know how this isn't the only part of the equation that matters.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Actually in the real world people tell each other things all of the time without "earning" a right to do so. 

And people get to be aggravated and annoyed when someone does that and we can comment on and be upset when someone says something that is bothersome. It's all criticism.

Seems like you just don't like some viewers not liking Mary which is your prerogative, as is ours to call out Mary, for said behavior.

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

People keep citing real-world circumstances when we're talking about the most un-real world situation. Lucifer. Lucifer. Lucifer. I don't know how this isn't the only part of the equation that matters.

Exactly. Dean seems to still be the only one that recognizes that fact. 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

You'll never convince me of that.  Ever. And those quotes of Misha's that @catrox14 found only reinforce my disbelief. And as I commented earlier about another scene, if we have to jump through those kinds of hoops to 'get' what they are selling, then they aren't doing a very good job of it.

And again, I wasn't saying he shouldn't be allowed to speak with him, but being left alone with him was stupid. To use your adoption metaphor - you wouldn't just let a birth parent alone with a grown child the first time either. And the bottom line is this is LUCIFER and the spawn that is supposed to be the most powerful being in the universe. It's NOT NORMAL or human. And it's not smart to leave all that power alone and unguarded.

Well that was Cas... Cas was losing because Lucifer manipulates the truth and Jack was too naive to see that  Jack has to learn the hard way.

 

Misha is being tongue and cheek.  He is joking. There is no Hitler backstory.  They have not thought that much about the AU.  They were g oing for a Tatentino Inglorious Bastards vignette and failed.  They are film geeks.

 

It is one little sequence in a large episode.  The only purpose for it was Cas vs Cas as far as I can see from a big picture writing standpoint as foreshadowing for Michael vs Michael.  Otherwise it was a total waste of time in the episode to pimp Ketch and AU Charlie and embarrass Misha.  Now that would be stupid.

One hopes it had a purpose so I assume it was to foreshadow Michael vs Michael. 

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So when Lucifer hurts or kills someone because they needed to give Jack a chance to know him, Dean will have the right to say I told you so to the bitch.

People keep citing real-world circumstances when we're talking about the most un-real world situation. Lucifer. Lucifer. Lucifer. I don't know how this isn't the only part of the equation that matters.

Jack is a cinnamon bun like all children. 

Dean can say I told you so bitch if he wants to rub salt in the wound. 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

A person can learn about their own family history, including people who are now dead and can't speak to them to inform their own lives and make assessments.  Like Dean could tell Jack that Lucifer tortured Sam for 100 years. Jack can choose to disbelieve Dean or he can go to Lucifer and ask him what exactly happened. Or he could pick up a copy of the Winchester Gospels and learn all about it. 

This writing is just more of the stupid bullshit strawmen scenarios wherein the ONE THING that needs to be said and brought up isn't for the sake of stupid plot and angst.

Jack doesn't NEED to spend time with Lucifer to understand his own power at all. Not really because the show has said that Jack is the most powerful entity in the universe.

Dean could say all of those things.  Jack still needs to get to know his own father and decide for himself.  It is a rite of passage.  Mary is right.  

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Jack still needs to get to know his own father and decide for himself.  It is a rite of passage.  Mary is right.  

This is the last time I'm responding to any of this - nobody said Jack shouldn't decide for himself. But giving him ALL the facts to make that decision is prudent. Leaving him to only hear Lucifer's lies is careless, short-sighted and arrogant. Repeat "Mary was right" til the cows come home, but Mary wasn't the one with experience with Lucifer and should've deferred to those who were.

[companionenvy]

Even in the real world, I think there are situations where a father can be such bad news that the child doesn't need to meet him for his or herself to reject him. There isn't a universal rule that would work in every case, especially since we're talking about such an extreme case. In real world terms, I think it is far from clear that a child who knows that his father is a serial killer, or Neo-Nazi, or abuser who impregnated his mother by rape would necessarily feel the need to meet him. Even in less extreme instances, while a lot of adoptees want to meet their birth parents, and this is seen as normal and natural, I've also met adoptees who have no interest in meeting their family of origin at all. 

Also throwing it off is the fact that it isn't obvious that Jack should be treated like an adult rather than a minor. He seems to be late teens/early 20s in appearance, but he's actually less than a year old, and has shown himself to be quite naive. The people who are, in effect, acting as his parents/guardians thus have a legitimate, if not ironclad case for trying to keep him from his father on the grounds that he's still effectively a child and it isn't in his best interest at this point. 

All that being said,Jack's desire to know his father is natural, and it would have been a fool's errand, and perhaps counterproductive, to keep Jack from him entirely under the circumstances. What I, at least, object to is that TFW 2.0 neglected to consider the very obvious middle ground of allowing Jack to meet Lucifer, but supervised -- and with frequent interjections challenging Lucifer and exposing his lies. 

[sarthaz]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

- Fortunately the character is dead, so we don't have to live with those choices for any other episodes.

How adorably naive ... ;)

[SueB]

If we didn't inately push our boundaries we would learn to walk across the floor. And it wasn't like Jack was going to put himself in physical danger.  Jack was seeking knowledge and he already knew everyone, like literally everyone in two different universes, hated his father.  He made it clear he had a longing to understand who his father was -- why the source of the power he also has is considered so evil. Jack is clearly terrified of becoming like his father -- hated by everyone. 

Yes, Dean's instincts of "It's LUCIFER" is of course spot on for the rest of the universe but it's insufficient for Jack.  He's been told Lucifer is evil but he doesn't have years of exposure to the concept of 'the devil' and all the nuanced ways he 'lies with the truth'.   BTW, I freakin' loved Dean's "go back there and see what Helter Skelter is whispering in the kid's ear." - possibly too old of a pop-culture reference but I liked it.  

But again, just telling Jack "no" was doomed to fail.  Lucifer is too important to him. Lucifer is why he has powers. Lucifer is what he thinks is the source of darkness in him that results in people getting killed.  Every young person wants to understand who they are.  And being told that simply talking to Lucifer is too dangerous would feel to Jack like they thought he was a baby.  If they kept Jack away from Lucifer, he'd end up resenting them.

So, Mary was right. Jack had to judge Lucifer for himself.  And Mary had confidence that Jack was a good judge of character.  If you think about it, she likely spent at least as much time if not more with Jack, and Jack meeting people, than the boys did.  

Now a better approach would have been to tell Jack flat out what Lucifer did to them personally for 5 minutes before letting the two talk.  But that's too rational and not dramatically as interesting.  Having not done that, Cas was right to go get reinforcements when he saw the manipulations Lucifer was pulling.  Cas didn't have ready truth-bombs like Gabriel did.  And once Luci & Jack talked, I thought they kept a decent eye on the two. 

I also liked that Dean manipulated Lucifer by making him stay back to "protect the camp" while they rescued Charlie & Ketch.  Kind of hoist Luci on his own petard there -- if Luci wanted to play the 'good guy' he had to act like it.  

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, SueB said:

Yes, Dean's instincts of "It's LUCIFER" is of course spot on for the rest of the universe but it's insufficient for Jack.  He's been told Lucifer is evil but he doesn't have years of exposure to the concept of 'the devil' and all the nuanced ways he 'lies with the truth'.   BTW, I freakin' loved Dean's "go back there and see what Helter Skelter is whispering in the kid's ear." - possibly too old of a pop-culture reference but I liked it.  

If Jack didn't have some concept of evil he wouldn't have been so worried about being evil or bad when he was born.  That's why his "I want to know my father" doesn't hold any water for me. It's more contrived writing.

[SueB]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If Jack didn't have some concept of evil he wouldn't have been so worried about being evil or bad when he was born.  That's why his "I want to know my father" doesn't hold any water for me. It's more contrived writing.

You may not like the writing choice but "contrived" suggests it's out of the norm under the circumstances and I just don't see how that's accurate. Children curious about their biological parent is a very common occurance and a common story trope.  To Jack, whose Grandad is God, Lucifer is not as 'far out' as it would be for a non-angelic type.

Edited May 17, 2018 by SueB

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

ou may not like the writing choice but "contrived" suggests it's out of the norm under the circumstances and I just don't see how that's accurate. Children curious about their biological parent is a very common occurance and a common story trope.  To Jack, whose Grandad is God, Lucifer is not as 'far out' as it would be for a non-angelic type.

It is out of the norm for the SHOW. This is isn't real life. This is Lucifer and Jack. Yes I think it is out of the norm because the show already established that Jack understands the nature of evil.

[catrox14]

This would have been a much better episode if Dean would have just driven the bus full of AU rebels through the rift.

Since when was it a rule that only one person at a time could go through the rift? Dean and Sam and Cas all went through together in s12...and Dean and Sam came back through together after Cas went after Lucifer.

More plot contrivance writing to ensure Sam was there alone with Lucifer cause only Dean could go through first,  

Sigh.  

I can't stand Buck Leming's writing. I really hope they leave.

[SueB]

I’m pretty sure the whole bus would have messed up the library.

[ILoveReading]

14 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So is he saying he was sent to raise Hitler? For Michael? Because a) OMFG if that's what SuckLemming's intention was, and b) OMFG if we were supposed to reach that little conclusion on our own. What the actual fuck? LOLOL!!

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that was the writers intention.  I don't think that's what he was saying nor did I mean to imply he was saying this.  Misha's response very tongue and cheek,

[MysteryGuest]

The idea of showing us an AU Cas who was a sadistic torturer, in and of itself, wasn't a bad idea.  But the execution sucked.  It would have been more effective, IMO, to have AU Cas look similar to our Cas, but just show him being evil.  Having him enjoy torturing Charlie would have been sufficient.  There was no need for the hair or the outfit or the accent.  That's what took you right out of the scene.  Whether they did it for laughs, or camp, or because they thought it would just add to his evilness, it really didn't work on any level.  

As for Jack wanting to get to know Lucifer, I understand the motivation, I just think they did a poor job, again, of executing the scene.  There was no reason to have Cas, rendered speechless around him.  Jack has talked about his father before, and said he had no desire to meet him because he knew how evil and hated he was.  But meeting him face-to-face for the first time, he would still be curious about why he was who he was.  It was a scene that probably needed more time to do it justice.  Jack wasn't really given any time to call his father out on his bullshit.

[S Cook Productions]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

The idea of showing us an AU Cas who was a sadistic torturer, in and of itself, wasn't a bad idea.  But the execution sucked.  It would have been more effective, IMO, to have AU Cas look similar to our Cas, but just show him being evil.  Having him enjoy torturing Charlie would have been sufficient.  There was no need for the hair or the outfit or the accent.  That's what took you right out of the scene.  Whether they did it for laughs, or camp, or because they thought it would just add to his evilness, it really didn't work on any level.  

As for Jack wanting to get to know Lucifer, I understand the motivation, I just think they did a poor job, again, of executing the scene.  There was no reason to have Cas, rendered speechless around him.  Jack has talked about his father before, and said he had no desire to meet him because he knew how evil and hated he was.  But meeting him face-to-face for the first time, he would still be curious about why he was who he was.  It was a scene that probably needed more time to do it justice.  Jack wasn't really given any time to call his father out on his bullshit.

I was about to take exception to you saying that Cas was rendered speechless...but then I realized that you were pretty much right. He did literally run away to get Sam and Dean for help. Then later, he was very obviously taking orders from Dean when it came to torturing that guy. My spec is that when it comes to angels and especially archangels on this level- he knows that it’s difficult for him. They’re his brothers, his old family, if you will. I think he knows he’s Too close to the situation and is a little out of his league alone. So he turns to his new family for support, and lets cooler heads prevail and call the shots for the most part. 

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

I was about to take exception to you saying that Cas was rendered speechless...but then I realized that you were pretty much right. He did literally run away to get Sam and Dean for help. Then later, he was very obviously taking orders from Dean when it came to torturing that guy. My spec is that when it comes to angels and especially archangels on this level- he knows that it’s difficult for him. They’re his brothers, his old family, if you will. I think he knows he’s Too close to the situation and is a little out of his league alone. So he turns to his new family for support, and lets cooler heads prevail and call the shots for the most part. 

My issue is that they're not consistent...shocking, I know.  Cas has been pretty willing and able to get in Lucifer's face this season, so it seemed odd to me that all of a sudden, he couldn't speak up.  I'm not sure what they were going for in those scenes.  Cas' inability to call Lucifer out on his lies in front of Jack just seemed odd to me, based on the rest of this season.  Maybe he was hesitant to call Lucifer a liar in front of Jack, but considering hello...it's the devil, that doesn't make much sense.  Cas was sworn to protect Jack, and that's been his mantra all season, so why so shy all of a sudden?  

I know that I'm not a writer, but it just seems to me that with very little tweaking in most of these instances, these scenes would play much better and be more plausible.  I just don't understand how professional writers and show runners can't see the same thing.  They can use their wild imaginations to come up with the season arcs, but they're just not good at the detail work.  It's frustrating as hell.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

My issue is that they're not consistent...shocking, I know.  Cas has been pretty willing and able to get in Lucifer's face this season, so it seemed odd to me that all of a sudden, he couldn't speak up.  I'm not sure what they were going for in those scenes.  Cas' inability to call Lucifer out on his lies in front of Jack just seemed odd to me, based on the rest of this season.  Maybe he was hesitant to call Lucifer a liar in front of Jack, but considering hello...it's the devil, that doesn't make much sense.  Cas was sworn to protect Jack, and that's been his mantra all season, so why so shy all of a sudden?  

I know that I'm not a writer, but it just seems to me that with very little tweaking in most of these instances, these scenes would play much better and be more plausible.  I just don't understand how professional writers and show runners can't see the same thing.  They can use their wild imaginations to come up with the season arcs, but they're just not good at the detail work.  It's frustrating as hell.

Plausible and palatable. I know not every fan had the visceral reaction to Mary's little speech to the boys about staying there with her people, but literally every one of the fans I know did. Not because Mary wants to help fight the war, not because I want her to come home and be a mommy, but because the lines they give her and the way they are delivered just make me hate her so much I just don't care what her motivations are. And as you said, a little tweaking would go a long way to allaying that hate. Consider, after we, the viewers, witnessing all the boys have gone through to try and save her, up to and including Sam dying and Dean witnessing it only fucking hours before this scene, Mary had said, with the empathy of one who has been tortured and hunted in the recent past, "I can't even imagine what you went through" instead of a rather bland, blasé, all-about-me "I know what  you went through".

[catrox14]

Cas inconsistent behavior in this episode is just more of terrible Buck Lemming writing. IThey want their bads ideas to be put on screen and whatever has gone before, be it  for the characters or continuity or  lore are irrelevant to them.

They couldn't even keep straight that the Rift doesn't t require only one person at time... until it did to make sure Sam was left alone with Lucifer in the AU

"How did you think this was going to end?" should have been a huge moment for Sam.

I mean  if Sam had said that right before stabbing him it would have been cool. Jared delivered the line well. Unfortunately, it lost all its punch  when all Sam does his push him away, literally.

Edited May 17, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I mean  if Sam had said that right before stabbing him it would have been cool. Jared delivered the line well. Unfortunately, it lost all its punch sure loses its punch when all Sam does his push him away, literally.

I have neglected to mention this in all my many rants about this episode, so thank you for reminding me. I am not generally a fan of Jared's acting, but that line was perfectly delivered. I may have said, 'you go Sammy!' out loud at the tv screen. And I also agree, this should have been Sam's shining moment - and they blew it.

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I mean  if Sam had said that right before stabbing him it would have been cool.

If Sam had actually taken out Lucifer in that moment, it would have been amazing!  He'd already told Lucifer he was going to kill him when they returned, so it would have been perfect.  And considering their love affair with all things Lucifer, it would have had tremendous shock value.  We'd be talking about it forever.  Sam would have gotten his retribution, finally.  The Winchesters would have looked like the smart and experienced hunters we know them to be by not allowing this glaringly obvious loose thread hanging out there that you know is going to bite them in the ass later.  I'd have loved it!!

[Princess Sparkle]

Mod Reminder: The topic here is the episode and the episode only. Multiple posts have been hidden.

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Plausible and palatable. I know not every fan had the visceral reaction to Mary's little speech to the boys about staying there with her people, but literally every one of the fans I know did. Not because Mary wants to help fight the war, not because I want her to come home and be a mommy, but because the lines they give her and the way they are delivered just make me hate her so much I just don't care what her motivations are. And as you said, a little tweaking would go a long way to allaying that hate. Consider, after we, the viewers, witnessing all the boys have gone through to try and save her, up to and including Sam dying and Dean witnessing it only fucking hours before this scene, Mary had said, with the empathy of one who has been tortured and hunted in the recent past, "I can't even imagine what you went through" instead of a rather bland, blasé, all-about-me "I know what  you went through".

He did speak up with the truth which Lucifer twisted to his advantage being the Price of Lies in a well written scene I thought.  Cas realized that he was screwed.  It was a case of the show showing that Jack was indeed going to have to learn himself the hard way who Lucifer his father really was.

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

If Sam had actually taken out Lucifer in that moment, it would have been amazing!  He'd already told Lucifer he was going to kill him when they returned, so it would have been perfect.  And considering their love affair with all things Lucifer, it would have had tremendous shock value.  We'd be talking about it forever.  Sam would have gotten his retribution, finally.  The Winchesters would have looked like the smart and experienced hunters we know them to be by not allowing this glaringly obvious loose thread hanging out there that you know is going to bite them in the ass later.  I'd have loved it!!

Sam could not have taken out Lucifer at that moment.  Canon had already been established that only an archangel could use an archangel knife to kill an archangel which was why Dean was impotent screaming at Gabriel in rage KILL. HIM. NOW. earlier in the episode.  If Dean could have taken the blade  and killed him he would have done so then.

Only AU Michael could kill him.  

What Sam should have done was cut his throat, cut off his tongue so he could not speak and then at an him to weaken him further.... at least then he would have maybe dislodged the stick up his ass and done due diligence to prevent Lucifer from talking his way out of things.

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Canon had already been established that only an archangel could use an archangel knife to kill an archangel which was why Dean was impotent screaming at Gabriel in rage KILL. HIM. NOW. earlier in the episode.  If Dean could have taken the blade  and killed him he would have done so then.

Canon hasn't established that only an archangel an kill an archangel.  Canon has established that they think that.  Thinking something has never stopped either one of them from taking a shot.  

[MysteryGuest]

14 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Canon hasn't established that only an archangel an kill an archangel.  Canon has established that they think that.  Thinking something has never stopped either one of them from taking a shot.  

And if they can screw with the show's canon on a regular basis, I think we should be able to, as well.  

[catrox14]

Canon may not apply in AU. Lucifer knew the cuffs wouldn't work. So why couldn't they have at least tried to use it, other than plot?

[The Companion]

On 5/10/2018 at 8:20 PM, MysteryGuest said:

 

I thought the hug between Sam and Charlie was cute.  He was so happy to see her for that split second.

I loved that moment and her reaction.

On 5/10/2018 at 8:31 PM, BoxManLocke said:

 

Why even do this ? Why did he have to have a german accent and the Hilter haircut ? This looked like a prank shot for the gag reel. And the way they set up that parallel was ridiculous, with Sam and Dean instantly asking Castiel to torture the guy who sold out Charlie and Ketch, so we'd think WOW Castiel is just like his AW version ! Give me a break. This whole thing was done with the subtlety of a middle-school film project, and absolutely nothing came out of this.

. . .

Fuck Buckleming.

Echoing everyone else that Nazi-adjacent Alterni-Cas was not good.

Also, quoting the second part because it can't be said enough 

On 5/10/2018 at 8:32 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

And having him declare Kelly took his virginity, when he essentially raped her? That's a low water mark for the show, IMO.

 

This show is so bad about consent and sex. I know there was a lot of talk about whether this was rape and it depends on jurisdiction, but regardless we are talking about a scene where Lucifer uses one person's body who is unable to consent to have sex with another person under false pretenses. There is nothing cutsey about it. Let's not forget, as well, that it was implied that he sexually assaulted Sam as well. Lucifer can STFU and go away any time, please. 

On 5/12/2018 at 3:58 PM, ZennyKenny said:

Honestly I enjoy every episode... but I had to change my mindset about the show. I had to come to terms with the fact that I couldn't care less about anyone's storylines, ever. Because every time I expect great thing to come from an arc, I'm always disappointed. I think the last straw for me was Demon Dean. I was excited for evil Dean to truly shake things up, and instead I got bad karaoke.

So, instead, I have no more expectations from the show. I just go with the flow. What makes it worthwhile to me is that I truly enjoy watching the actors. They all have such great charisma, and will shine with whatever script they are given (also it helps that they're good people irl, too). But like with faux-Nazi Castiel (or whatever that was supposed to be), I was cracking up and having a good time with it. Because I love Misha collins. Will Dean get possessed in the finale? Will he kill Lucifer? Will he hunt down Chuck in an alien spacecraft that he stole from Area 51? Who cares? Jensen will rock it either way.

I an trying really hard to ignore the Lolcanon and OOC stuff and it has somewhat worked. I do my best to take the good and ignore the rest. 

On 5/14/2018 at 11:16 PM, SueB said:

 

I'm going with the Northern Sector.  Oh hey look, Trump got his wall -- it really is the Apocalypse World.

I love that Texas has remained Texas. Hee.

On 5/17/2018 at 9:13 AM, MysteryGuest said:

If Sam had actually taken out Lucifer in that moment, it would have been amazing!  He'd already told Lucifer he was going to kill him when they returned, so it would have been perfect.  And considering their love affair with all things Lucifer, it would have had tremendous shock value.  We'd be talking about it forever.  Sam would have gotten his retribution, finally.  The Winchesters would have looked like the smart and experienced hunters we know them to be by not allowing this glaringly obvious loose thread hanging out there that you know is going to bite them in the ass later.  I'd have loved it!!

I just want Lucifer gone and I actually would have liked that to be what they were building to. It would have worked with some of the build up including his revisited trauma. 

Honestly, this whole story has ended up being a bit of a mess. Still, I ended up not hating a lot of it. I haaaaate that they brought Gabriel back for some ED jokes and a quick death, and I really wish Lucifer would go away, but I kinda like the AU refugees conceptually (probably alone on that). I am okay with fan service from time to time, so I am happy to have some characters back, even though I wish they had made them different. I didn't hate Mary this episode (I am full of unpopular opinions) and despite his gooey cinammon roll goodness, I enjoy Jack and enjoyed watching him try to come to terms with who he is (seriously, don't kick me out).