S02.E09: The General / S02.E10: Chinatown

[possibilities]

The reason I asked is that I thought it might have relevance to the issue of how they fixed the problem of not being to travel to a time you already existed. I thought maybe a future team member told them.

[Raja]

On 5/22/2018 at 7:03 AM, Wordsworth said:

What was disrupting that one Civil War raid supposed to accomplish?  The Battle of Vicksburg had been won by the Union in July of 1863; this was September.  It is highly unlikely that this one raid would have tipped the scales in the Civil War.

I don't think it was supposed to be just that battle. The Rittenhouse Colonel had the history book and as he rose in rank because of local victories would turn the tide.

 

The entire what if genre however is built on the one moment being decisive since early turn arounds due to a loss or victory would change the decision making in the future making the military history text less reliable after every timeline change 

[bros402]

On 5/27/2018 at 11:35 PM, sarthaz said:

This was my favorite part of the episode. It was basically an admission by TPTB that the storyline was shit and made no sense and needed to go. Probably the best episode of the series so far. Most eps I find eye-rollingly forgettable, but this one was sharp and effective. That said, doesn't the lifeboat traveling to a time where the lifeboat currently exists violate their flimsy rules of time travel?

I think it could just be organic matter can't go back to a time when it existed.

Because otherwise they would be unable to travel from 1885-2018 because of Jiya leaving the Lifeboat out in the open

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, bros402 said:

I think it could just be organic matter can't go back to a time when it existed.

Because otherwise they would be unable to travel from 1885-2018 because of Jiya leaving the Lifeboat out in the open

And also because the whole point of that final scene was to demonstrate that Future Wyatt and Future Lucy have solved that particular problem.  We just don't know HOW they solved it yet.

[CTrent29]

Quote

Lucy is not Flynn’s wife. He remembers meeting her when she is older than she is now - most likely the version of Lucy we saw at the end.  We just saw him say so an episode or so ago. That would also mean she’s not his daughter. Flynn is in love with Lucy. He just knows she’s not in love with him and therefore he keeps his feelings unshown must of the time. 

 

Pity.  I think he is more suited for her.  My days as a supporter of the Lucy-Wyatt relationship ended by the third and fourth episodes of Season Two.  It also made me realize that Abigail Spencer has a stronger and more mature screen chemistry with Goran Višnjić than she does with Matt Lanter. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by CTrent29

[bros402]

16 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

And also because the whole point of that final scene was to demonstrate that Future Wyatt and Future Lucy have solved that particular problem.  We just don't know HOW they solved it yet.

Yeah, definitely - I was just trying to think of a way it didn't work before.

Let's just say time particles - and the upgraded lifeboat has shinier time particles

[ketose]

19 hours ago, bros402 said:

Yeah, definitely - I was just trying to think of a way it didn't work before.

Let's just say time particles - and the upgraded lifeboat has shinier time particles

My vote is a tachyon emitter. It worked for Star Trek.

[statsgirl]

On 5/17/2018 at 9:31 PM, vibeology said:

I don't know if I'm comfortable calling it love seeing as they've barely spent time together but Flynn is absolutely into Lucy. You know how Lucy gets giddy every time they meet a historical figure because she's read about that person her whole life and feels a connection to them? That's how Flynn feels every time he sees Lucy. He's read that journal over and over and he feels that connection to her that she doesn't have the experience to reciprocate. 

That may certainly have been true initially.

But over the months he's known her, he's got to know her as more than a person in a book and a curiosity,   Certainly he's paying more attention to her feelings than Wyatt is.

It's also interesting that she sought him out in the timeline, gave him her journal and told him to read it. That argues that this something on her part too.

It's interesting that traditionally on shows, season 1 sets up the OTP and season 2 is the season of the stall-ship, the one that keeps the OTP from getting together too soon.  The hazard is that one some shows, the stall ship comes over as more interesting and rootable than the OTP.  Usually things don't change other than the show drops the wrong person through some plot contrivance.  I get the sense that the EPs are committed to Lyatt as end game, which is disappointing to me. 

On 5/30/2018 at 4:35 PM, CTrent29 said:

Pity.  I think he is more suited for her.  My days as a supporter of the Lucy-Wyatt relationship ended by the third and fourth episodes of Season Two.  It also made me realize that Abigail Spencer has a stronger and more mature screen chemistry with Goran Višnjić than she does with Matt Lanter. 

And there's that too.  Compared to Flynn Wyatt comes across as the juvenile lead.

On 5/22/2018 at 9:14 AM, Clanstarling said:

I think it has to do with Carol's grandpa Keane (?) - the guy they retrieved from WWI. He was their "visionary", I think.

I hope so. While Rittenhouse definitely came off as evil, they didn't come off as particularly bright or visionary.

[STOPSHOUTING]

I know point is moot post-cancellation, but isn’t it pretty dumb for them to keep using movie and TV names? I mean, not only has the joke worn thin, but if they’re searching for sleeper agents from their own time introducing themselves with names like “Rhett Butler” makes it awfully easy for them to be discovered by said agents before they can suss them out. 

Almost as stupid as sending said sleeper agent back to the Civil War who knows nothing about, you know, the Civil War. Think if I was going back to fight in it, I might have cracked a book before jumping into the time machine, but you do you, Rittenhouse. (They’ve spent billions, if not trillions, to develop time travel, but didn’t do the required reading? ?)

Sorry to the actor, but why couldn’t it be Wyatt who died? He’s endangered all their lives more times than Flynn at this point, seems like a terrible shot for a super solider, his sole purpose on these jaunts, and was dumb as a box of horny rocks to both immediately knock up AND not suspect/share what he knew about his suddenly-alive-again wife. Plus, so devoted to his stubble he probably didn’t even shave it under that stick on craft supply beard he came back in. Flynn is everything Wyatt is, only with more charisma.

Rufus, on other hand, was smart and very good at his job and did NOT let threats to his family take down his friends.

Anyone else hoping for a Bill & Ted-esque reveal where when New Wyatt comes out of the Lifeboat he turns and there’s a baby carrier on his back? OK, just me then?

Edited June 23, 2018 by STOPSHOUTING

[bros402]

8 hours ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

I know point is moot post-cancellation, but isn’t it pretty dumb for them to keep using movie and TV names? I mean, not only has the joke worn thin, but if they’re searching for sleeper agents from their own time introducing themselves with names like “Rhett Butler” makes it awfully easy for them to be discovered by said agents before they can suss them out. 

Almost as stupid as sending said sleeper agent back to the Civil War who knows nothing about, you know, the Civil War. Think if I was going back to fight in it, I might have cracked a book before jumping into the time machine, but you do you, Rittenhouse. (They’ve spent billions, if not trillions, to develop time travel, but didn’t do the required reading? ?)

Sorry to the actor, but why couldn’t it be Wyatt who died? He’s endangered all their lives more times than Flynn at this point, seems like a terrible shot for a super solider, his sole purpose on these jaunts, and was dumb as a box of horny rocks to both immediately knock up AND not suspect/share what he knew about his suddenly-alive-again wife. Plus, so devoted to his stubble he probably didn’t even shave it under that stick on craft supply beard he came back in. Flynn is everything Wyatt is, only with more charisma.

Rufus, on other hand, was smart and very good at his job and did NOT let threats to his family take down his friends.

Anyone else hoping for a Bill & Ted-esque reveal where when New Wyatt comes out of the Lifeboat he turns and there’s a baby carrier on his back? OK, just me then?

I think they didn't have them learn much about the Civil War in case they changed time too much, which is why they delivered a book on the military history of the civil war

[STOPSHOUTING]

6 hours ago, bros402 said:

I think they didn't have them learn much about the Civil War in case they changed time too much, which is why they delivered a book on the military history of the civil war

Which would then make Lucy's entire purpose to the show pointless…She's their historian, who knows all about every significant historical event and person, off the top of her head, based on her education in the original timeline. Pretty useless if the argument is then, later, history is constantly changing. (And, since she's ON the time trips, her memories/historical knowledge, unlike those of the ones stuck at home, don't automatically change when history changes. Lucy has always still remembered the original "real" history.)

[KaveDweller]

19 hours ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

I know point is moot post-cancellation, but isn’t it pretty dumb for them to keep using movie and TV names? I mean, not only has the joke worn thin, but if they’re searching for sleeper agents from their own time introducing themselves with names like “Rhett Butler” makes it awfully easy for them to be discovered by said agents before they can suss them out. 

Don't the sleepers already know about the time team and who they are? I would think Rittenhouse would fill the sleepers in on the other time machine being a risk to their mission. Now it would be really dumb for the sleepers to be using movie and TV names because the time team didn't know who they were.

But I think they just wanted to be funny. It was still making me laugh until the end.

[bros402]

16 hours ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

Which would then make Lucy's entire purpose to the show pointless…She's their historian, who knows all about every significant historical event and person, off the top of her head, based on her education in the original timeline. Pretty useless if the argument is then, later, history is constantly changing. (And, since she's ON the time trips, her memories/historical knowledge, unlike those of the ones stuck at home, don't automatically change when history changes. Lucy has always still remembered the original "real" history.)

Shhhhh, just accept the first thing that came to my head.

I wonder if Lucy went on every trip her mother and Emma went on. I am guessing the trip Emma took to make it "certain" Amy could never be brought back didn't change history much? But would that just change Lucy's memory in reference to that, or would it overwrite her memory with all of the changed history? Probably the former

[Chas411]

Finally caught up on season 2. Really enjoyed it all and sad it won't be back. One thing that bugged me though.. What was the point of rittenhouse? Like besides being all evil etc etc what was their actual endgame?

[Moose135]

7 hours ago, Chas411 said:

One thing that bugged me though.. What was the point of rittenhouse? Like besides being all evil etc etc what was their actual endgame?

That was the one thing they never seemed to answer.  I kept waiting for them to reveal the story behind Rittenhouse, and they never really did.  I don't know what they were trying to do, what their goals were, or why they needed to keep going back in history to change things in order for their plans to succeed.

[Chas411]

And after a season long arc for Micahel Rady he just whimpered off quite quickly in the end. Emma was a better baddie as we at least had an idea of what drove her, her background etc. For such a major part of the show rittenhouse was quite weak.

[statsgirl]

My biggest complaint about Rittenhouse is that they seemed rather stupid.  They were so obsessed with their own domination, they never thought about the flow of civilization in general.  But as a commentary on the current state of certain current political streams, the show was amazingly prescient.

[Chas411]

This was it - their only plan was to change history - die no reason other then it was a family tradition and they were really into it.

it kind of reminds me of Pinky and the Brain - "today we're going to take over the world" - no reason as to why, just cause.

[ketose]

It reminds me of the gnomes from South Park

1. Do evil stuff

2. ???????????

3. Rule the world

[Bethanne]

On 5/14/2018 at 1:30 AM, Manda317 said:

I loved tonight's episode! I was truly surprised more than once. I want to know where Flynn is in the future though. I hope he is just holding things down in the future while Lucy and Wyatt come back to fix what happened with Rufus. I hope he doesn't die :( There is also the possibility that we just didn't see him yet. Unless Wyatt or Lucy can pilot in the future, Jiya is most likely there. 

I love Jiya, and am glad they are fleshing out her character. Same with Denise and Connor. They really did do some amazing things with character development this season, and it makes me excited for what they could do in the future. 

The fact that all indications are that they save Rufus is the only reason I am not majorly upset over his death. He is an amazing character, and it truly would damge the show if he was gone. He also allows us to see an important aspect of history that the others can't. I love him with Jiya, Connor, and Flynn, and I need to see some more with him and Lucy. I also want to punch Wyatt the least when he is with him lol.

Wyatt. He needs to improve. They have given him an interesting back story now, but they need to do something about his stupidity and attitude. If a character needed to die tonight, I  would have chosen him. Denise was far too compassionate, and should not have given in to him. If he wants to leave, they have Flynn. He has not earned the trust that she constantly puts in him. He couldn't even shoot Rittenhouse agents during a mission. He could have gotten everyone killed. Bringing Jessica to that bunker was a crime, not to mention how disrespectful it was to Lucy.

His emotions need to make more sense too. I think he is in love with Lucy, but the writers haven't matched his feelings with actions. If he was in love with Lucy, he should have been far more concerned with her suffering and feelings. His conversation with Rufus should have hinted that his refusal to believe that Jessica could be involved with Rittenhouse had a lot more to do with the fact that he didn't want to have committed to his marriage, which he thought was the right thing to do, sacrificing his chance with Lucy, when it was a lie. He doesn't even seem to grasp how he has hurt her while everything was falling apart for her. It's ridiculous. He should have told Lucy he was sorry for messing things up based on lie in that last scene, not said I love you after crying to Rufus that he couldn't lose Jessica. He was written as way too committed to his marriage with Jessica for someone who was already in love. They should have shown him as more conflicted about making his failings as a husband right and letting his past relationship go because he has feelings for someone else. It isn't even realistic that their relationship would have gone back to wonderful so fast. They had serious issues that they needed to work out. Is she now going to receive all classified info from his missions? What happens when this mission is over and it is time for another? Is he going to retire? I could rant about the problems with him for hours.

Emma is amazing. She is one of my favorite villains ever. I usually end up loving dark characters or being annoyed by them, and I just love to hate her. I don't want her to be secretly good or have tragic reasons (Flynn), but I want her to continue raising hell and not die lol. I loved when she just shot Nicholas and Carol. She was just over it, and in the end, she was way more formidable than them. Jiya would not have gotten home and the time team would have been wiped out if her plans had been followed (provided Jessica had not been overpowered and given appropriate backup).

I actually wonder if Carol was still a member of Rittenhouse in the original timeline, or if she left after meeting Amy's father. She obviously had some misgivings about them, and maybe she left when she fell in love. That would mean that Lucy's entire life was not a lie, and her mother truly did love her (not in a crazy way lol), which, with her sister back, would be a happy ending for her. Without meeting the love of her life, she could have been indoctrinated more and more dependent on them. She said she wanted more time with Lucy and that is why she changed the past, but she didn't make the changes, and there is no way she even remembers anything about that timeline, so she has to be talking about the things that she instructed Emma to do to make sure Amy could never come back in this timeline. 

I love Flynn, and I love the movement in his relationship with Lucy. I also love his banter with Rufus. He even had a cute scene with Jiya, seemed to get along with Mason, and had an emotional scene with Denise. If Lucy and Wyatt are endgame, I at least want him to get his little girl back. It would be nice if he could fix things with his wife too. 

I so much agree with everything you have posted here! I watch this with my 13-year-old son and at least three times we both shouted out, “Whaaaaat?!?!?!” It was an awesome pair of episodes with so many unexpected twists and turns. I love that we can watch this show together without a moment of awkwardness. Jack Ryan would serve the same purpose except for the two times per episode where it gets too inappropriate and I have to send him to the kitchen for something. ;)

Like you, I think they are doing a great job writing the characters and their development and interactions with the exception of Wyatt. I think they should play on his military sense of duty in his repeated turning back to Jessica when he clearly has stronger feelings and a connection with Lucy. That I could buy, especially with the introduction of the baby storyline. 

The Harriet Tubman scenes were just breathtaking and I told my son that that was exactly how I’ve always pictured her. If this show is remembered for anything at all, it should be its sensitive retelling of history, it’s approach to educating the audience about race throughout history, and its portrayal of badass women. 

Magical show. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Bethanne

[Swartz]

Finally all caught up.   I enjoy the show.   Light, cute.   The whole Rittenhouse thing is lame but I ignore it and just enjoy the characters together.     I'd be fine if Rufas stayed dead.  I find him annoying.

I hate GV in this role.  He's very one note to me and his attempts at trying to be charming and humourous fall flat.    

AS is great. She's been great in everything I've seen her in but this is the first show where I could call myself a fan. 

[CTrent29]

Quote

I am hoping Lucy's Flynn's daughter, not his wife.

 

Oh please.  It's obvious that Flynn was born about a decade before Lucy.  And we already know who Lucy's father is.

 

Quote

While it was dumb of Wyatt not to shoot Jessica, how many men would be able to shoot the woman who's pregnant with their child?

Unless Wyatt was a monster, I just don't see him shooting a pregnant Jessica.  Even if he had aimed at a non-lethal spot, who knows what would have happened to her and their child.  No, he was right.

 

Quote

Jessica said in these episodes that Rittenhouse raised her. It sounds like she was the payment for saving her brother. So if Rittenhouse was looking after her all along (in this timeline), bringing her up as the ultimate sleeper agent who can get to the heart of the Time Team, they'd either traveled to 1980 to prevent the murderer from existing or they brought her up with the knowledge of how to avoid the murder situation -- maybe the trip to 1980 was to drop off someone and get them in place to swoop in and save the brother.

 

So why did she help Emma betray Rittenhouse?

Edited December 12, 2018 by CTrent29

[legaleagle53]

9 hours ago, CTrent29 said:

So why did she help Emma betray Rittenhouse?

Because she was sympathetic to Emma's frustration and anger over being expressly told that Emma wasn't "real Rittenhouse" because she wasn't descended from David Rittenhouse as Nicholas, Carol, and Lucy were.  If that's how they felt about Emma, how do you suppose they felt about Jessica?  Jessica could read the writing on the wall and realized that her best shot at remaining relevant would be helping Emma overthrow the "Rittenhouse royalty" and seize control of Rittenhouse itself.