Supernatural DVDs, Books and Other Merchandise

[DittyDotDot]

Okey doke...you know that anyone can make it so, right?

[SueB]

Watched two of the commentaries and then Meta Fiction last night (i.e. Disc 4). Bits I noticed:

Blade Runners

- Mark Sheppard was really sweet on that video. He was kind to everyone and seemed genuinely delighted about the show.  He's been a bit curmudgeonly lately so I liked hearing him "unfiltered".

- One of his telling statements by Mark is that you NEVER know, and HE will never tell, if Crowley knew what was going to happen all along. I think that might contributes to Mark's reluctance to comment on storyline in interviews.

- Between the writers and Mark it seems pretty clear to me that Crowley WAS earnest in seeking a connection with Sam and Sam was having none of it. And Crowley was disappointed.  For the record, this means I was wrong. Back on TWOP I suggested that maybe Crowley was just trying to lure Sam into a false sense of security and that he had a long-con revenge plot in mind.  I think it was more straight-forward, based on commentary.  Crowley simply wanted work with the boys to kill Abaddon.

- Interesting comment that Crowley had NO ONE else he could turn to when he needed help. 

In short, loved the commentary. Mark was a treasure and other were just fine.

 

Mother's Little Helper

I'm actually a little more disappointed in this commentary. It was more director's process than story info.  Don't get me wrong, it was interesting, but I like to learn nuances and tidbits and this was much more behind the scenes info. Commentators Adam Glass & Misha Collins.

- I did love the comments about how Dean and Crowley have chemistry and Misha joking he was jealous.

- They toyed with making Josie willingly accept Abaddon due to glass ceiling. I'm very very glad they went self-sacrifice route.

Misha did a good job with this episode. It sounds like Nicole Baer (?) from editing really added a great deal with the flashbacks.  I thought those were well done.

 

Meta Fiction

- Just a note about how GORGEOUS that final sequence is in BluRay.  When the boys are driving at dawn?? Wowser.  I'm fortunate enough to have a big projection screen system ... so it's like an 80inch screen or something.  Anyway, it's huge. That final montage plays so well on the big screen.  Someone should actually run a Supernatural Marathon in a movie theater and pick the most visually stunning.  They do awesome work with this production.

[Aeryn13]

How much Dean-bashing was in them? I only read excerpts from the Dreadful Duo about Blade Runners on how Dean has always been a killer as per his DNA - wow, so they consider him born evil? - and was reaching for the brain bleach.

 

Comparatively, how often did everyone mention how righteous Sam is? Or was the gist of it all spared for the "Dean is a loser" featurette on choices and consequences? 

[catrox14]

Or just make a Supernatural movie that harkens back to Kim Manners etc. and let's the boys swear like they should LOL

How much Dean-bashing was in them? I only read excerpts from the Dreadful Duo about Blade Runners on how Dean has always been a killer as per his DNA - wow, so they consider him born evil? - and was reaching for the brain bleach.

 

Oh dear, can you point me to those excerpts because I need to read those?

 

The really said that Dean has always had the DNA to be a killer. I mean in one hand that does go with Dean thinking he was a killer back s1 when he said to Sam' "What I would do to save you and my family" but that's a whole different kettle of fish than "Dean is evil". 

 

Oh Gods. What if they twist the whole thing into Sam and Dean have really always been evil? I wouldn't put it past Carver.

[Aeryn13]

Sorry, it was on tumblr. Aka the place that is so unorganized you can`t carry on conversations or ever, ever, ever recover anything there. It was somewhere in the Dean Winchester tag if that helps at all.

[catrox14]

LOL Aeryn13, that should narrow it down to about a billion :)

[Demented Daisy]

According to Google, it all started here.  But as for actually finding the original post, good luck.

 

I find it interesting that a Google search takes me to only two tumblrs -- it's nowhere else that Google has access to.  ;-)  Which makes me doubt the validity.  SueB, did they say anything about that in the Blade Runners commentary? 

Edited September 13, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[SueB]

 

 

SueB, did they say anything about that in the Blade Runners commentary?

Yes. And they did use the phrase DNA and killer. But not in a Dean=evil way. More like this is something within him that he's struggled with.  Which is certainly true.  They emphasized the word "warrior" two or three times. They DID say that Dean has never been completely at peace with himself.  I will watch tonight and get a word for word transcription for you.  The commentary came when Dean was handed the First Blade and the statement made that his reaction came as a surprise to him (Dean).

 

Again, I'll get word for word just to be sure.

[catrox14]

Eh, I'm not sure how DNA of killer inside is nothing but bad.  I mean sure one can be a warrior but killer is a different thing.  I look forward to your report SueB!

[SueB]

Here's my transcription. Poor grammar and repeated words are because that's what they said

 

The commentary spends quite a bit of time discussing the psychological hold vice gunpoint the boys have with Crowley and when will Crowley assert himself.  In the background playing is Magnus handing Dean the Blade for the first time.

 

Brad: Now a new wrinkle appears because we’re seeing for the first time the connection between Dean and the First Blade and it’s really weird for him, he had no idea. (**Dean just dropped the Blade)
Eugenia: And (garbled) …it taps into it clarifies for him or it give him an indication that he is..his DNA is that of a killer on some level. He’s fundamentally…I mean who knows existentially if he’s that guy even before he got the Mark.
Brad: We’ve played with these themes before. That Dean has sort of a warrior mentality.
Eugenia: Right
Brad: And this sort of cements the deal.
(**on screen now is Sam and Crowley)
Mark: And then we have the… the parallel between Crowley’s blood addiction and then the possibility of the effect the Mark and the Blade having on Dean.
Brad: Absolutely ..it ..it sets all this up (**Magnus is giving his world domination speech in the background)
Eugenia: I mean Dean is always at war with himself in the series. I mean to some degree maybe other people have have experienced that. I mean obviously Crowley is going through an episode of that. But I think through the whole series… I mean Sam had the period where he was soulless, and the drinking blood period…but I always think Dean is fundamentally not…comfortable with who he is. He he feels guilty or shame or responsibility but he’s always at war with his own nature. (**Magnus is taking away Dean’s will at this point)
Mark: He always seems to introvert on that as well. He always seems to self-reflect rather than put it out there. Sam seems to put it out there a lot more than …
Eugenia: Yeah.
Eugenia: Or or Dean goes into these weird…you know he just goes into denial..
Mark: Right
Eugenia (continuing): he just pushes it to the back burner ‘Okay, that’s true but I don’t care.’
Mark: Which gives Crowley the opportunity to capitalize on that, of course
Brad: *grunts in agreement*
Eugenia: Yeah yeah. Cause it never goes away, it just lurking somewhere in his psyche and Crowley can…ignite it. (note Mark murmers “asking” as Eugenia is finishing her sentence)
Mark: (**back to Sam and Crowley as Sam mixes the ingredients) Asking. I love the asking for approval.
Brad: I love Crowley being so needy here.
…and it goes on about Crowley being talky
 

Then when Dean is having a hard time letting the blade go.

Brad: The show does these moments a lot. Moments of triumph when you think it’s over and they just spin onto yet some new problem.
Mark: Nicely played though.
**And the screen moves on to them in the bushes.

 

Side note: they actually scratched the car vice put paint for the writing. Jensen was unhappy.

Edited September 14, 2014 by SueB

[SueB]

Opinion:

Yeah, Eugenia calls him a killer. But I think she was getting more to the whole "darkness within" topic vice just saying he's bad news. JMO YMMV.

[catrox14]

 

[snip]nd (garbled) …it taps into it clarifies for him or it give him an indication that he is..his DNA is that of a killer on some level. He’s fundamentally…I mean who knows existentially if he’s that guy even before he got the Mark.

Eugenia: I mean Dean is always at war with himself in the series. I mean to some degree maybe other people have have experienced that. I mean obviously Crowley is going through an episode of that. But I think through the whole series… I mean Sam had the period where he was soulless, and the drinking blood period…but I always think Dean is fundamentally not…comfortable with who he is. He he feels guilty or shame or responsibility but he’s always at war with his own nature. (**Magnus is taking away Dean’s will at this point)

Mark: He always seems to introvert on that as well. He always seems to self-reflect rather than put it out there. Sam seems to put it out there a lot more than

 

Okay rant warning ahead.

 

Okay this right here. This is a huge problem for me. I swear to Gods it's this kind of commentary that makes me think these writers have no fucking clue about Dean OR they are trying to retcon his issues as having always been Dean suppressing this killer inside. WTF? He's not fucking Dexter Morgan.  Gods I'm annoyed.

 

Dean has never been about KILL KILL KILL. He's been about saving people and hunting things and killing monsters.

 

You now what I would buy, show, as Dean's reasons for self-loathing and guilt? 

 

How about:

 

-- Maybe just maybe Dean's fucking 40 year stint in Hell might in which he tortured people for 10 years because it was a release after suffering 30 years of his own torture.  Maybe one day y'all can fucking remember that happened to him. Gods!

-- Or maybe his year in Purgatory where it was pure because he was killing monsters to survive and also TO FIND CAS AND SAVE HIS LIFE.

--Or maybe he carries guilt because his whole family besides Sam is dead because of monsters and demons

--Or maybe because people that he's cared about and loved who died because of monsters or because of fighting along side of him.

--Or maybe because he's lost relationships because he's saving people and hunting things.

--Or maybe because he was zapped to the future and saw his brother possessed by Lucifer and he knew one day he might have to kill him.

--. Or maybe because he's had the burden put on him by John to either save Sam or kill Sam.

-- Or maybe he felt at war with himself because he thought he should have been dead as far back s2 when John sold his soul to make a deal for Dean to survive and that Dean views himself as a walking violation of the 'Natural Order of Things'

-- Or how about a million other reasons that make more sense that Dean has killer DNA. 

 

Oh fuck you show, Just fuck you. I swear to Gods if they go down the route, I will just stop watching because just no. 

[mertensia]

Well you also have to remember this was expressed by the terrible twosome. Eugenie come from the era of writing where there was little character development. So Mrs King (of Scarecrow and Mrs King) would finally start working well with Francine who finally respected her and the next episode they'd be back to square one. I don't think she sees beyond the brief character sketch from season one or whenever.

[Aeryn13]

 

 

Opinion:

Yeah, Eugenia calls him a killer. But I think she was getting more to the whole "darkness within" topic vice just saying he's bad news. JMO YMMV.

 

I think it`s the same thing. What they`re pretty much talking about is how the character deep down, at his core is evil and kill-crazy. And oh, maybe he feels some guilt about it or is in denial about it and it at war with himself about it but that`s who he is. A remorseless killer at heart.

 

No wonder his character receives some of the worst bashing in their episodes. And lets not forget, we don`t call them the nepotism duo for nothing because, nepotism. So either that opinion is shared by the co-showrunner and other head producer or he is being influenced this way.  

[7kstar]

Dean has the warrior mindset, so I can see him easily killing when he believes he is doing it for the greater good and having a conflict of killing people.  Also due to being in hell and turning to torture, the question could rise up, am I only a good killer, soldier.  Actually it has, and Crowley's line "You're the one that doesn't see your worth"  something to that effect just adds to the self loathing Dean tries to hide.

 

In real life when soldiers come back from war, they have a hard time adjusting from kill or be killed to not seeing their enemies everywhere.

 

How they deal with this, will be the question and the writers don't seem to agree to begin with, as I think that is why the stories jump so much.  One writer puts something in and another takes it another direction causing much confusion and upset in the fan base. 

 

I'll also say this, it reminds me improvisation games, one actor starts a line with the intent of going one direction and then another actor takes it to a totally different place.  Now when it's the actors turn to say their line, they try to get it back on course, but because of the change it never goes smoothly.  This is how I see the supernatural writing team...not what does that say about it all?  :)

[Aeryn13]

 

In real life when soldiers come back from war, they have a hard time adjusting from kill or be killed to not seeing their enemies everywhere.

 

That`s way different than what they discussed, though. Unless one claims that soldier was, even before he went to the war, even in childhood, heck, even in the womb, a natural born killer. That`s what it means to have something in your DNA. Or worse, to have your DNA reduced to something. According to the writers, even fetus!Dean was a killer and pretty much evol. They don`t say the last part outright but it`s implied IMO.. 

Edited September 14, 2014 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I'd ignore most of what the horrible duo spouts, they never seem to know what show it is they're working for anyway. I guess I should give them credit for uniting the fandom on hating something--and getting all of us to agree about anything is a feet in and of itself--but I'd rather not give them credit for anything.

 

 

How they deal with this, will be the question and the writers don't seem to agree to begin with, as I think that is why the stories jump so much.  One writer puts something in and another takes it another direction causing much confusion and upset in the fan base. 

 

And this is why I find Carver lacking as a showrunner. His job is to smooth this out and make it seem seamless and keep the show moving in a cohesive direction, IMO.

[catrox14]

That`s way different than what they discussed, though. Unless one claims that soldier was, even before he went to the war, even in childhood, heck, even in the womb, a natural born killer. That`s what it means to have something in your DNA. Or worse, to have your DNA reduced to something. According to the writers, even fetus!Dean was a killer and pretty much evol. They don`t say the last part outright but it`s implied IMO..

Yup.That's why I went on my rant. There are so many other legimate reasons in canon already why Dean has internal war. why even go down the path of DNA Killer Dean? The only time Dean ever real questioned his own heart and mind was in s1 when he how far he would go for family. I agree that the implications of warrior vs killer are problematic at best and insulting to soldiers at worst.

It's really discouraging to think that after 9 seasons the only way the writers can figure out how tp give Dean an arc and figurw a way to have him be less codependent with Sam is to literally demonize through a magic blade that pings Killer DNA??? WTFF??

Especially since they already had a perfect reason with Dean's stint in Hell. They could have easily had the Mark ping on Deans psyche Hell memories. T would have been enough for the audience to go YEP I can see how that would happen because the process to becoming a demon was already in canon. The Mark could have just accelerated what had been possibly lying dormant until he took the Mark.

This is a disaster awaiting IMO if that is how Carver et al really view Dean.

y

[catrox14]

, I'd ignore most of what the horrible duo spouts, they never seem to know what show it is they're working for anyway. I guess I should give them credit for uniting the fandom on hating something--and getting all of us to agree about anything is a feet in and of itself--but I'd rather not give them credit for anything.

 

And this is why I find Carver lacking as a showrunner. His job is to smooth this out and make it seem seamless and keep the show moving in a cohesive direction, IMO.

Unless this is precisely what Carver wants with Dean. He's never talked about Dean in a favorable way that I can recall. And he did kill Dean 100 times on Mystery Spot to show just how far Sam would go to avenge Dean or get him back. Maybe this is just that story all over again.

[DittyDotDot]

I guess I've never heard him talk about Dean unfavorably either, but then again I tend to ignore his interviews also. He's just so contradictory and rarely anything he says actually is presented on my TV screen. And, this is just so very superficial that I probably shouldn't even say it, but his douchey hair makes me loathe him, so I'm somewhat predisposed to discounting his every word on site--which is kind of douchey on my part, so I'm sorry.

 

Personally, I find most of the current lot to be spouting their random thoughts to the fandom because they can, but just because someone says it doesn't mean I have to accept their interpretation nor does it make it true. Do I believe that Dean has been at war with himself? Yes, as do I think Sam was at war with himself for many seasons and what I've felt the story was really about (not Sam specifically, but both brothers coming to a place of peace within themselves). Do I believe that Dean was born a killer? No, and a couple of lame, two-bit writers are never going to convince me of it either. Not only because they haven't convinced me that it's been shown to be true, but I also don't believe anybody is "born" evil or a killer or whatever. It sounds to me like they were trying to sound smarter and cleaver than they really are, but since I haven't actually heard it (intonation can be everything) I can't really make a proper judgment for myself either.

 

I'm just saying that even if Carver thinks this, doesn't mean I have to accept it as truth.

[Aeryn13]

Only thing is, showrunner and writers make choices on where and how the story goes. And if that`s how they see the character, they`ll never write him as anything but dirt. And Carver`s stories will always be about showing the character as dirt. That`s why their comments are so disheartening.  

[DittyDotDot]

But, we don't know that this is Carver's viewpoint so I find it harder to get worked up about a couple of hack writer's spouting off because I think it might possibly be what Carver thinks. Until he comes out and says it himself, I'm not going to assume anything--especially given that it came from this particular duo that don't seem to have a clue in the first place. 

 

I know it seems odd to think that the writers view of the show may not reflect the views of the showrunner, but this show being as disjointed as it is, I'm just not sure it's all that illogical. And, we should always remember that logic and rational thought has no place in Supernatural anyway, right? ;)

[AwesomO4000]

Unless this is precisely what Carver wants with Dean. He's never talked about Dean in a favorable way that I can recall. And he did kill Dean 100 times on Mystery Spot to show just how far Sam would go to avenge Dean or get him back. Maybe this is just that story all over again.

 

Which he then contradicted as soon as he became showrunner by not only having Sam not look for Dean at all, but by having him declare that it was no big deal, because he wanted a "normal life" supposedly again (which made little sense to me either). But if Carver wanted he could've had Dean die a bunch of times in purgatory and brought him back again, but instead Dean survived the entire ordeal with his sanity intact.

 

And Carver`s stories will always be about showing the character as dirt

 

From season 8, I would think otherwise. Carver had Sam - in the general terms of this show anyway - take the run away, cowardly way out - and supposed "maturity" about not looking for Dean aside (which could just as well be seen as a half-assed attempt at back-tracking imo), I can't see an argument that makes any sense declaring that abandoning Kevin was a positive thing. That's just bizarre. In contrast, Dean fought his way through purgatory to find Castiel, staying loyal to him despite repeated temptations by Benny to just go ahead and save himself. Dean not only kept his loyalty to Castiel, he also kept his loyalty to Benny and gained Benny's respect. In my opinion, nothing about that storyline showed Dean as "dirt.". I also didn't see the second half of season 8 showing Dean as dirt either. It's true that he took a supportive role, but as a person, that's just it: he was supportive, forgiving, tried to help Castiel, and forgave Castiel - all in general positive things that people are generally admired for. So Dean was brave, surviving a year fighting monsters and being a badass in purgatory to make sure that he saved his friend, and then he was loyal, supportive, and forgiving of that friend, his new friend, and his brother. Even the supposed "phone call scandal" was mostly about Dean remaining loyal to Benny and likely saving both Benny and Sam and being smart while doing it. Any spin was, in my opinion, to save face for Sam (who was again given the "cowardly" role). Except for Dean actually saving the world * - again, which is what got him in purgatory to begin with - I'm not sure how he could've looked much better as a character myself. In my opinion, if season 8 was Carver supposedly thinking badly of Dean, I kind of wish he'd think badly of Sam myself.

 

As I've learned from Joss Whedon before him, I generally take everything a writer and showrunner says with a grain of salt. Misrepresentation for spin is an art form they use to get the fans riled up and generate buzz. In the end, what I see in the episodes themselves is what matters, as that is the actual show. To me, all the rest is sound and fury signifying little.

 

So I guess, bottom line - at present I just don't see the storylines indicating that Dean is seen as "dirt." For me, from what is seen onscreen - which is what counts -  it appears to be the opposite

 

* He could've taken on the trials I suppose, but then he would've had all of the active story for the season, and he also would've had to not finish the trials and become the damsel in distress, so I'm not sure how much better that would've been.

[SueB]

 

But, we don't know that this is Carver's viewpoint so I find it harder to get worked up about a couple of hack writer's spouting off because I think it might possibly be what Carver thinks.

Exactly.  At the end of the day this is unflltered DVD commentary from two writers, not show "position".  Grain of salt.  Further, the writers at the con plus the DVD plus Adam Glass have all said that the "tone" meeting is where Carver/Singer control story direction.  So... say for example, that Carver talks about Dean's inner struggle with seeing things as kill or be killed.  That's not the same thing as saying "Natural Born Killer".  We aren't in those meetings and personally I think focusing on the use of the word "DNA" is not justified.  Why not focus on the word "warrior"?  Why is that not just as valid an perspective? 

 

I've never heard Carver NOR Singer suggest Dean was a "Natural Born Killer" -- which evokes the movie with two VERY demented characters.  They've never suggested Dean is demented. 

[catrox14]

Which he then contradicted as soon as he became showrunner by not only having Sam not look for Dean at all, but by having him declare that it was no big deal, because he wanted a "normal life" supposedly again (which made little sense to me either). But if Carver wanted he could've had Dean die a bunch of times in purgatory and brought him back again, but instead Dean survived the entire ordeal with his sanity intact.

 

Was Dean's sanity intact though or for that matter after he came back from Hell?  We don't know really know because they never spent any reasonable amount of time exploring what that meant for Dean.  And I have a difficult time believing that we were supposed to think he was SUPER!DEAN who can survive Hell without any issues.  He drank more, he was more quick to temper and he had a ton of self-loathing. They did a little better job of it in s8 showing that Dean was not at all okay after Purgatory because he went straight to shoving a bad guy against a wall and trying to strangle him as we flashed back to Purgatory, which is not Dean's first go to ploy when dealing with bad guys. To me that was showing some measure of PTSD but it certainly wasn't complete by any means.

 

I would also argue that Dean certainly wasn't being portrayed as a good guy when he let an angel possess Sam. The price he paid for that decision was being literally demonized. I'm not really sure how that is a favorable representation of Dean.  And Carver has said that happened essentially because Dean chose to sideline Sam and didn't include him in the fight. That strongly implies that Dean was wrong to not include Sam and 'Welp, that's what you get Dean for shutting out Sam".

 

I'm not saying Sam had a good run either but I really don't think Dean has been portrayed at all under Carver's direction as particularly sympathetic. But I think Carver underestimated how much cache the boys have built with the audience and that some sympathized with Dean in spite of Carver showing us on screen that Dean is kind of a bad guy now, just like he did with Sam in s8. In fact I think Carver has done both characters a huge disservice under his watch.

[Aeryn13]

 

I also didn't see the second half of season 8 showing Dean as dirt either. 

 

Dirt, insofar he was insignifcant as that. I can see that pretty well. I think in Season 8, Carver pretty much had no interest in Dean and he made that more than clear in interviews. He ignored the character and when one question was asked about Dean making growing in a positive way, Carver dismissed it with a "well, that`s a testament to all the other people, certainly not the character".

 

In Season 9, apparently he took an interest and he had nothing positive to say or something that he saw the character even remotely sympathetic. And for the future he just keeps hammering the point that this is a) Dean`s fault for being selfish and mean and b) the demon is all Dean, all the time, no change at all.

 

Not once have I heard him say something even remotely complimentary of the character`s, well, character. Whereas he numerous times did for Sam. So I can just well imagine how those "tone" meetings go. And shudder in horror.

[catrox14]

 

We aren't in those meetings and personally I think focusing on the use of the word "DNA" is not justified.  Why not focus on the word "warrior"?  Why is that not just as valid an perspective?

 

I would disagree that Carver has not implied this about Dean. 

From an interview in the summer

 

TVLINE | Dean as a demon, how is that different from Dean just being possessed by a demon temporarily? What is he like?

Dean is not possessed by anything. It’s his own soul that’s been twisted into a demon soul, so this demon is not anyone other than Dean. So every thought, every action, that’s Dean, as opposed to some other demon possessing him. So while he’s a demon, that causes some complication of thought in him in that, “This is really me doing it.” It also motivates a certain bravado. “Yeah, this is me doing and owning it!” There’s a real period for Dean of deciding how dark he’s going to be and what kind of demon he’s going to be, because he can’t blame it on anyone else but himself. And then afterwards is when it will have the most effect on him because it was him. It was his actions that led him to becoming a demon. He pushed it with the Mark. He pushed Sammy away at the end of last season. He said, “I can do this by myself.” So there’s a certain consequence to all this that is almost more interesting to us than the actual demon part.

TVLINE | Does it intensify some of his bad qualities? He’s not a bad person, but he has qualities like all of us that we’re not proud of

.

Yes. I don’t think demon Dean is the nicest fellow around the block. And that’s by design. He’s not intended to be a particularly nice guy and that’s one of the things he struggles with. He knows how he’s acting. Sometimes, he’ll fight against that in odd ways. That’s the real conflict that’s within him right now when he’s a demon. Because it is him. He’s not unaware of what he’s doing. And although his soul is twisted, he is not without a certain amount of self-examination.

 

Dean is not going to be quite what we expect him to be. Can you elaborate on that a little more?

Jeremy Carver: This is the first time that we're going to see Dean as a demon. It's not a demon possessing Dean, it's still Dean's soul, but just twisted. In that way, every decision made is Dean's. So as dark or as evil or whatnot that Demon Dean might be or what you might expect him to be, there's still Dean there. There's a self-awareness. Let me put it this way: Dean is not unaware of the thing that he's become.

 

All of these comments imply to me that Carver sees Dean as a borderline bad guy. Now it's just coming out with him being a demon. That somewhere it was always there. Then the Nepotism Duos comments about being killer DNA don't seem to be particular in opposition to Carver's viewpoint. At least not the viewpoint he's espousing right now.

[AwesomO4000]

I would also argue that Dean certainly wasn't being portrayed as a good guy when he let an angel possess Sam.

 

Since it was shown by the end of the season that Sam would do the same exact thing - he just was jerky and lied about it - then either Sam is also being shown as not a good guy, or the show in actuality thinks that Dean's choice with Gadreel was really the right one: with family loyalty and all.

 

Dirt, insofar he was insignifcant as that.

 

Considering Sam, in addition to accomplishing nothing in the first half of the season, didn't finish the trials either and was pretty much a damsel in distress through most of those trials anyway, I'm not seeing how in the end he was portrayed as any more significant myself. I thought in the end Carver gave Sam at least as insignificant storylines as Dean. At least Dean accomplished getting out of purgatory.

 

Not once have I heard him say something even remotely complimentary of the character`s, well, character. Whereas he numerous times did for Sam.

 

I'd be more impressed if this translated into positive storylines for Sam. As of yet, I haven't really seen it, considering Sam either behaves badly - usually towards his brother - and fails or doesn't complete what he's trying to do. I would like to think this doesn't mean anything - and I hate sounding like I think Sam is being treated badly as a character - but it's hard to see any positives. With no action behind it, to me character compliments in interviews just come across as damage control and/or as I talked about earlier, damning with faint praise. In the commentary and interviews, they can say "Sam? Oh, yeah, Sam's great." * but unless they really show the things they are talking about, why should I believe them?

 

In contrast they can say all sorts of implied things about Dean's character, but when he's being shown as the hero - as in much of season 8 - or it is shown that Sam would do the same thing they are complaining about Dean doing - as in season 9 - it's difficult in my opinion to take those words seriously and not focus on the evidence the show is showing me.

 

** Similar to how the other characters say it when they aren't instead giving barely veiled insults like Garth's "Bless his heart" comment.

 

All of these comments imply to me that Carver sees Dean as a borderline bad guy.

 

Most of these comments to me don't seem much different than the "choices" Sam was making in season 4 (and here I am talking about what I saw in the show and the very few commentaries that I watched), where even though there was blood addiction it was also "just Sam" (as indicated by the "Dumbo and feather" speech of Ruby's), and similarly Castiel's choices of season 6.  So if Sam can survive being the borderline bad guy in season 4 and Castiel survived it after season 6, I'm sure Dean can survive a similar thing here. So I don't see Dean being singled out for the "evil treatment" since both Sam and Castiel have already gone through similar things previously, and it's already been indicated that Sam will do bad things this season as well.

 

Considering according to these quotes

demon Dean will supposedly be grappling with what he's doing - a demon with some kind of conscience -

he'll already be a step ahead of soulless Sam.

Edited September 14, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

I think Carve is happy to show these guys as having both good and bad qualities.  They both can be petty at times. They both can be BIG DAMN HEROES.  I would much rather have them grapple with their own internal issues than being chiseled jawed white-hats.  JMO YMMV.

[mertensia]

I thought it was interesting in the DVD Men of Letters bit that the consensus was that the Lair was home for Dean because Dean wants to belong somewhere and -more interestingly - that he has never known a real home. To Sam it's like living in the library.

[Aeryn13]

 

I think Carve is happy to show these guys as having both good and bad qualities.

 

I have never once read or seen an interview with Carver, including the Season 9 DVD features where I didn`t think he has neatly divided up the "good" and the "bad" qualities among the two characters, with one having all the good and the other having all the bad. And the bad one ain`t Sam. That his message didn`t always connect like he wanted to with the viewers is a matter of incompetence in writing and some acting working against it. But nevertheless Carver keeps trying and will keep trying.

[catrox14]

I have never once read or seen an interview with Carver, including the Season 9 DVD features where I didn`t think he has neatly divided up the "good" and the "bad" qualities among the two characters, with one having all the good and the other having all the bad. And the bad one ain`t Sam. That his message didn`t always connect like he wanted to with the viewers is a matter of incompetence in writing and some acting working against it. But nevertheless Carver keeps trying and will keep trying.

I think Carver is taking turns deconstructing the brothers but then he doesn't seem to understand that the. boys have a history that does not support some of the bizarre plot contrivances. For me,SPN has always been a character piece.

Sadly, I don't think Carver has a good handle on the boys anymore. I actually think he's more interested in Crowley more than any other character.As much as Dean had an arc IMO that arc was more about Crowley than Dean or at least equal. It was about Crowley's struggling with his addiction his relationship with humanity. And his need to connect and defeat the boys when he wasn't allowed connection which IMO is why he turned Dean.

I just don't think Carver cares what happens to the boys characterization as long as he gets to explore the monster in them and the humanity in Crowley. And poor Cas is just all over the place.

Edited September 15, 2014 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

I thought it was interesting in the DVD Men of Letters bit that the consensus was that the Lair was home for Dean because Dean wants to belong somewhere and -more interestingly - that he has never known a real home. To Sam it's like living in the library.

That is really interesting I'd love to read/see the dialogue but I never buy the dvds. I feel like they're just messing with me here since they've had Sam tell Dean in so many words that he got a normal life while Sam didn't, ( even though I thought he did at Stanford, maybe they meant as a child) then had Sam tell Dean to live the normal life he always wanted with Lisa and Ben, implying he never had one either,)maybe they meant as an adult). Then there's the whole Amelia can of worms with Sam again saying he never had that before, I'm making my head hurt trying to figure out what the hell show they watch. Maybe they're saying that to Sam a library is home because he's spent more time in them than anywhere else so it's a constant. Anyways didn't they monologue at us season 5 that the Impala was home? Why wont they pick a POV and stick to it?

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think this is new information, is it? Slumber Party was the episode where Dean states that the bunker is their home and Sam's opinion is it's where they work. Their lives have no real separation between work and home and I think Dean prefers it that way. The job is his life, so I think it was easy for him to accept the bunker as a home and work place. With Sam, I think he has a harder time when his work life and home life intersect; I think he needs a space between both of these. So, to him it's not home; it's a library where they just happen to spend the night from time to time. It's kinda like how some people move into their office space; decorating their desks with photos, memorabilia and chachkies and such. I never feel the need to do this. Work is where I work and home is where I live, so I kinda can understand Sam's perspective here.

 

 

ETA: Forgot to ask, was that feature more about how they made the set and stuff or was it more just recycling things we already know about the Men Of Letters? I was kinda hoping it was more of a production focused featurette.

Edited September 15, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[mertensia]

The featurettes are a mix of both; they let Jerry Wanek talk and explain.

I think the interesting thing is : Dean never knew a home. They aren't counting that first four years- where there was enough marital discord for 4-year old Dean to pick up on it- and apparently canonically acknowledging this fact.

[DittyDotDot]

Thanks mertensia, I'm always interested in how things work and find the production focused features far more interesting.

[mertensia]

Yeah I always enjoy the little explanatory features too.

[catrox14]

S9 will be available on Netflix on Oct 7.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/28/netflix-october-2014_n_5895950.html

[Demented Daisy]

Some new SPN merch available at Hot Topic:

 

 

 

 

And a birthday gift from my husband (he knows what a weirdo I am and got me the blood-splattered Dean):

 

[DittyDotDot]

I find it hilarious that a fan had to make a Crowley doll, but they made one for Charlie. Poor Mark Sheppard!

[AwesomO4000]

I find it hilarious that they have age: 17+ on the dolls while the Impala is age 8+. What exactly comes with these dolls? Unlike Data, they do not appear to be anatomically correct or anything as far as I can see here.

[catrox14]

Holy crap I really want Baby and Dean. I mean the actual human Dean

[AuntTora]

The Crowley doll is now real, and it's spectacular.

http://www.popcultcha.com.au/supernatural-crowley-with-red-demon-eyes-pop-vinyl-figure.html

[SueB]

 

I find it hilarious that they have age: 17+ on the dolls while the Impala is age 8+. What exactly comes with these dolls? Unlike Data, they do not appear to be anatomically correct or anything as far as I can see here.

Well Dean IS blood splattered and Crowley's eyes are kinda demonic. 

[Demented Daisy]

http://www.hottopic.com/hottopic/PopCulture/TV/Supernatural/Supernatural+The+Musical+Girls+T-Shirt-10286946.jsp

 

That didn't take long!

 

[SueB]

Bless their uber-capitalist hearts. Just in time for Christmas!

[Zanne]

I find it hilarious that they have age: 17+ on the dolls while the Impala is age 8+. What exactly comes with these dolls? Unlike Data, they do not appear to be anatomically correct or anything as far as I can see here.

 

They were probably considering what people might do with those dolls to be NC17-ish.

[amensisterfriend]

Just so you guys know, Amazon's Black Friday sales include selling the S4, S5, S7 and S8 DVDs for just $9.99 each. Granted, most people who read this thread probably either already own them or have decided they don't want them, but I just figured I'd pass it along! 

Edited November 28, 2014 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

***Just an update for those who either need to complete their DVD collection or want to give the gift of Supernatural: Seasons 2 and 6 are now also available on Amazon for $9.99 each :) 

[Pete Martell]

That looks more like a demon Bobby than a Crowley.

 

Cute Charile tho.