S13.E18: Bring 'em Back Alive

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

We've already had angel in an angel vessel with Casifer so why not Michriel?

But then this opens the whole can of worms regarding Misha, and his ability to "see" that Gabriel is really Gabriel, or that he's Michael in disguise. He's always been able to recognize other angels, regardless of the meat suit they're  wearing, so that would be another head scratcher, IMO.  

[catrox14]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

But then this opens the whole can of worms regarding Misha, and his ability to "see" that Gabriel is really Gabriel, or that he's Michael in disguise. He's always been able to recognize other angels, regardless of the meat suit they're  wearing, so that would be another head scratcher, IMO.  

Unless it's not really Cas or it's a compromised Cas who's powers wax and wane. If Gabriel is on top of Michael maybe he couldn't tell he was in there. Plus it's the Trickster. He could hide himself. Maybe he could hide Michael. 

[MysteryGuest]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Unless it's not really Cas or it's a compromised Cas who's powers wax and wane. If Gabriel is on top of Michael maybe he couldn't tell he was in there. Plus it's the Trickster. He could hide himself. Maybe he could hide Michael. 

Anything is possible, I suppose, but that would really involve some major hand-waving, I think.  I know we had speculated that maybe Cas wasn't really Cas when he first came back from the Empty, but there's really been no indication that that's the case since then.  I hope they don't go to those lengths just to make their absurd plot make sense.

[trxr4kids]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

He's always been able to recognize other angels, regardless of the meat suit they're  wearing, so that would be another head scratcher, IMO.  

Wait, I thought he didn't know Gadreel and that's why they let Crowley dig into Samdreels head.

[catrox14]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

Wait, I thought he didn't know Gadreel and that's why they let Crowley dig into Samdreels head.

Oh...that's a good point. Hmmm

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Wait, I thought he didn't know Gadreel and that's why they let Crowley dig into Samdreels head.

He didn't know it was Gadreel when Dean discussed him over the phone.  When Crowley went rooting around in Sam's noggin it was to help Sam expel Gadreel.  They all knew it was Gadreel at that point.

[trxr4kids]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

He didn't know it was Gadreel when Dean discussed him over the phone.  When Crowley went rooting around in Sam's noggin it was to help Sam expel Gadreel.  They all knew it was Gadreel at that point.

 I thought they found out during the interrogation but you're probably right since I mostly ignored that entire s/l, lol.

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I thought they found out during the interrogation but you're probably right since I mostly ignored that entire s/l, lol.

I just watched the scene now to refresh my memory.  Once they find Sam/Gadreel, they bring him back to the bunker.  When he comes to, Cas asks him "who are you?  I thought I knew every angel in Heaven, but I've never seen you before".  So evidently he recognizes angels regardless of their meat suit as long as he's actually seen them before.  Gadreel had been locked away for quite some time, so while Cas knew of him, he'd never actually seen him.  But I think normally, Cas has always been able to see the angel in the meat suit.

[catrox14]

Maybe Cas didn't want to say if Michael was inside Gabriel. I dunno. Just a thought. I still side eye Cas a lot.

Him not being able to heal the bank guard. Him getting stabbed by Lucifer and bleeding from his mouth? Why would that happen? Sketchy, I say!

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

He didn't know it was Gadreel when Dean discussed him over the phone.  When Crowley went rooting around in Sam's noggin it was to help Sam expel Gadreel.  They all knew it was Gadreel at that point.

But didn't Cas see 'Ezekiel' before he made Dean make  him leave the bunker? I can't remember.  

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But didn't Cas see 'Ezekiel' before he made Dean make  him leave the bunker? I can't remember.  

 Gadreel wanted him gone because he feared Cas would recognize him. I think.

[MysteryGuest]

Gadreel made Dean send Cas away because he knew he'd recognize there was an angel in Sam, even if he didn't know specifically which angel.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Gadreel made Dean send Cas away because he knew he'd recognize there was an angel in Sam, even if he didn't know specifically which angel.

Didn't Cas already know that, only he believed it was Ezekiel? I thought Dean got Cas's stamp of approval on him before he let him help?

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Didn't Cas already know that, only he believed it was Ezekiel? I thought Dean got Cas's stamp of approval on him before he let him help?

No.  Cas gave the stamp of approval for Ezekiel to heal Sam.  He had no idea that Sam was being possessed.  He apparently couldn't tell that there was an angel in Sam, I think Gad always let Sam take the wheel when Cas was around, so I don't know if that makes a difference.  IMO, Cas should have been able to see an angel even if he didn't have any grace because Anna could see angels and demons in I Know What You Did and Heaven and Hell.

But, back to the point, yes, he should be able to tell the difference between Gabriel and Michael.  but, they change the rules on this stuff all the time.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Didn't Cas already know that, only he believed it was Ezekiel? I thought Dean got Cas's stamp of approval on him before he let him help?

Yes he believed it was Ezekiel and gave that seal of approval over the phone. but theoretically, he would have recognized it wasn't Ezekiel. Who knows though but it never came to pass until after Dean kicked him out.

I still think Gabriel could have hidden Michael if he could hide himself.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

No.  Cas gave the stamp of approval for Ezekiel to heal Sam.  He had no idea that Sam was being possessed.  He apparently couldn't tell that there was an angel in Sam, I think Gad always let Sam take the wheel when Cas was around, so I don't know if that makes a difference.  IMO, Cas should have been able to see an angel even if he didn't have any grace because Anna could see angels and demons in I Know What You Did and Heaven and Hell.

But, back to the point, yes, he should be able to tell the difference between Gabriel and Michael.  but, they change the rules on this stuff all the time.

 

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yes he believed it was Ezekiel and gave that seal of approval over the phone. but theoretically, he would have recognized it wasn't Ezekiel. Who knows though but it never came to pass until after Dean kicked him out.

I still think Gabriel could have hidden Michael if he could hide himself.

So Cas couldn't see Gadreel/Ezekiel because he was 'hiding' in Sam, then the same should hold true if Michael was 'hiding' in Gabe's meatsuit.

It's funny how memory works though - I was sure Cas knew how Sam was being healed, just not by whom.

On a related note - have we ever seen an angel kill anyone/anything by setting it on fire before? Even the demons we've see Cas kill got lit up 'white' by his grace.

Edited April 17, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's funny how memory works though - I was sure Cas knew how Sam was being healed, just not by whom.

Cas only said that "Ezekiel" should be able to help until he got there. Then he was kidnapped by the other angel and he never made it and was injured. He didn't know that possession was up for consideration which it wasn't until the last minute.

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On a related note - have we ever seen an angel kill anyone/anything by setting it on fire before? Even the demons we've see Cas kill got lit up 'white' by his grace.

Not that I recollect.

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think Cas ever saw Sam/Gadreel until after Kevin was killed and they went to find him him.  He had vouched for Zeke over the phone, because that's who Gadreel identified himself as, to Dean, and Cas knew Ezekiel, at least by reputation. 

I'll be very surprised if Gabriel is anyone other than Gabriel.  The entire premise that he was somehow captured by Asmodeus and tortured for years just makes no sense to me.  When we met the first Prince of Hell, we were told that they'd all be laying pretty low, and weren't bothering anyone so as not to be bothered themselves.  But now supposedly Asmodeus was out kidnapping archangels years ago?  I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the writers sit around and discuss these story ideas.  I wonder if anyone in those meetings ever bothers to mention that the fans know the lore backwards and forwards, and that this stuff doesn't go unnoticed.  I'm sure they couldn't care less, but still...it's a bit disappointing that we have more respect for the show than the show runners do.

Edited April 17, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[Wynne88]

Metatron recognized Gadreel right away.  So did the friend he had been imprisoned with (and then killed).  So I have to assume that Castiel would have recognized him as well if he had actually met him before he killed Kevin.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On a related note - have we ever seen an angel kill anyone/anything by setting it on fire before? Even the demons we've see Cas kill got lit up 'white' by his grace.

Michael killed Anna by burning her from the inside out in the Song Remains the Same and THAT! is the Michael that I want to see JA portray more than any other-especially since we know that Jensen helped Matt Cohen define that Michael role.

[Myrelle]

Oh, and FWIW, I think that Cas couldn't recognize Gadreel when he was allowing Sam to be "up front", but if Cas had seen an in-control-of-Sam Gadreel, he would have known that Sam was angel-possessed but not by whom-which is what Gadreel feared might happen with Cas hanging around with the brothers which forced him to issue the ultimatum of saving or losing Sam to Dean when that threat reared it's head in S9.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I just found it odd that Gabriel, who was practically catatonic was able to take out Asmodeus with just a bit of his angel grace, while Lucifer was shown to be almost completely without power until he started to take grace from Sister Jo.  

Maybe there really is a big difference between an angel's own grace and borrowed grace. Castiel seemed to have a similar problem when he was borrowing grace as compared to when he got back that bit of his own. If I remember correctly, Cas was in pretty bad shape, but he got back that small bit of his own grace and was able to defend himself against Metatron.

Since Lucifer is borrowing grace, it maybe isn't as powerful as Gabriel getting his own grace back.

I think the main new thing we have to handwave / absorb is that an angel can have their grace depleted so low that they are somehow still an angel - barely - but that they can't really heal their grace on their own any more. If they get enough more of their own grace back, they're good (like Gabriel), but if they have to borrow, it's not as effective, and they have to keep taking borrowed grace to even maintain (like Lucifer).

Based on what we saw with Castiel and the difference between using borrowed and when he got back his own grace, this works for me, but I realize that it's also a bit of a fanwank.

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Based on what we saw with Castiel and the difference between using borrowed and when he got back his own grace, this works for me, but I realize that it's also a bit of a fanwank.

Maybe not so much fanwank since it IS what we have been shown, including the recent Gabriel nonsense.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On a related note - have we ever seen an angel kill anyone/anything by setting it on fire before? Even the demons we've see Cas kill got lit up 'white' by his grace.

I think when Castiel killed Lenore there was some fire? Maybe also Michael killing Anna? But even if so, not on the same scale as what we saw with Gabriel. He really seemed determined to destroy that awful suit though - heh.

20 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Maybe not so much fanwank since it IS what we have been shown, including the recent Gabriel nonsense.

The fanwank on my part is that an angel's grace can be depleted so far down that they can't heal adequately on their own, but that they are still technically an angel. Otherwise I can't explain Lucifer's and, to a lesser extent, Gabriel's condition. Before we had been lead to believe that angels could eventually replenish their grace on their own and regain their usual strength. But that hasn't been what we've been seeing with Lucifer - or at least if he is healing, it's taking him much longer than usual.

With Gabriel, the constant draining would explain why he couldn't heal, but that wouldn't explain why Lucifer hasn't been able to heal himself by now and still needs borrowed grace. If the show didn't want to show something new they could've just had Lucifer have all of his grace depleted by Michael and the situation would have been the same as Castiel in season 9. It was that little bit left that means I have to fanwank something ; ) .

Edited April 17, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't think Cas ever saw Sam/Gadreel until after Kevin was killed and they went to find him him.  He had vouched for Zeke over the phone, because that's who Gadreel identified himself as, to Dean, and Cas knew Ezekiel, at least by reputation. 

He saw Sam in I'm No Angel and Holy Terror (before Kevin died).

[FlickChick]

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

He saw Sam in I'm No Angel and Holy Terror (before Kevin died).

When he saw Sam in "I'm No Angel" - he wasn't - Cas was human and couldn't recognize any angels period. He didn't see Gadreel in Holy Terror, he merely told Dean over the phone that Ezekiel had been killed in the fall, so therefore he could not be the angel that Dean mentioned "healing Sam". That's when Dean asked Kevin to find the spell to let the person hear him, but not the angel. Unfortunately, it was too late when Gadreel/Sam overheard the conversation.

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

When he saw Sam in "I'm No Angel" - he wasn't - Cas was human and couldn't recognize any angels period. He didn't see Gadreel in Holy Terror, he merely told Dean over the phone that Ezekiel had been killed in the fall, so therefore he could not be the angel that Dean mentioned "healing Sam". That's when Dean asked Kevin to find the spell to let the person hear him, but not the angel. Unfortunately, it was too late when Gadreel/Sam overheard the conversation.

But, my point is he should have been able to see angels.  Anna could and she didn't have any grace, either.

[MysteryGuest]

Could Ann see angels when she was human?  I don't recall that.  I think if she'd been able to, that would have clued her in to what she was without needing Pamela to hypnotize it out of her.  She was hearing angel radio, but I don't know that she was seeing angels.  Though I guess she knew who Cas and what's his name were when they tried to take her back.  Now I can't really remember if she actually recognized them, or if she figured out who they were.  It's way too confusing.

As for recovering your archangel grace, Castiel did say that Lucifer was getting stronger every day.  And in the last episode, he was able to teleport himself to wherever that exorcism was taking place and basically pulverize the priest and his assistant with a snap of his fingers.  I'm thinking he's getting stronger by replenishing his own grace, in addition to whatever he's still taking from Sister Jo, if he still is.

Edited April 18, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[Katy M]

55 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Could Ann see angels when she was human?  I don't recall that.  I think if she'd been able to, that would have clued her in to what she was without needing Pamela to hypnotize it out of her.  She was hearing angel radio, but I don't know that she was seeing angels.  Though I guess she knew who Cas and what's his name were when they tried to take her back.  Now I can't really remember if she actually recognized them, or if she figured out who they were.  It's way too confusing.

WEll, she could definitely see demons.  I don't think she saw any angels (as in wasn't in the same room with any) before Pamela hypnotized her. She did however know how to blast the angels away.  It just came to her.

[FlickChick]

17 hours ago, Katy M said:

WEll, she could definitely see demons.  I don't think she saw any angels (as in wasn't in the same room with any) before Pamela hypnotized her. She did however know how to blast the angels away.  It just came to her.

I still don't believe she could see angels, but who knows. More importantly, we have LOLcanon at an astounding rate these days. So it probably doesn't matter what happened before.

[AwesomO4000]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet - and admittedly it's not related to the episode plot - but I finally figured out where I recognized the actress who was playing the angel who was objecting to what was going on and complaining to Lucifer from... she's the actress who played the bartender in Sam's messed up head in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" (which I was talking about in another thread). Remembering that episode finally made it click as to that's who she was.

And generally I'm not so great with doing that, but this time I got it.

[FlickChick]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet - and admittedly it's not related to the episode plot - but I finally figured out where I recognized the actress who was playing the angel who was objecting to what was going on and complaining to Lucifer from... she's the actress who played the bartender in Sam's messed up head in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" (which I was talking about in another thread). Remembering that episode finally made it click as to that's who she was.

And generally I'm not so great with doing that, but this time I got it.

Yeah, I recognized her immediately - from her voice which is very distinctive with its smoky/gravelly tone.

[MysteryGuest]

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And generally I'm not so great with doing that, but this time I got it.

This is one of my favorite fun things about Supernatural.  They re-use a lot of actors, and over the course of 13 years, it's not always easy to pinpoint exactly which episodes.  What did we do before IMDB?

Edited April 19, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[Lemuria]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And generally I'm not so great with doing that, but this time I got it.

I admit I didn't recognize her from SPN but I knew I'd heard her voice and it finally clicked:  she played Jo Lupo, first the deputy sheriff and then the head of security, in "Eureka."

[SueB]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet - and admittedly it's not related to the episode plot - but I finally figured out where I recognized the actress who was playing the angel who was objecting to what was going on and complaining to Lucifer from... she's the actress who played the bartender in Sam's messed up head in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" (which I was talking about in another thread). Remembering that episode finally made it click as to that's who she was.

And generally I'm not so great with doing that, but this time I got it.

THANK YOU.  It was bugging me that I couldn’t place her and was intending to look her up but haven’t had the time.  You saved me.  

[The Companion]

On 4/12/2018 at 8:10 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I posted too fast and this ended up in the episode description, so I edited it out. But for posterity:

One order of Kentucky Fried Prince of Hell, coming right up.

 

So satisfying.

On 4/12/2018 at 9:50 PM, BoxManLocke said:

 

btw BuckLeming were the ones who got Charlie killed through a hilarious series of events that made no sense at all. The fact that they can just come back and write for her again makes my blood boil.

I love Charlie and I am still irate about how they killed her. I should be thrilled she is back, but all I can think is that they are patting themselves on the back at how they undid that problematic fridging. 🙄 bringing in AU Charlie doesn't change that the way they killed her was problematic and ridiculous.

 

On 4/14/2018 at 2:02 PM, Aeryn13 said:

 

Now "Charlie Bradbury" being a pseudonym was just a minor thing in one episode but I`m still very, very sure that it was just a gaffe on Bucklemming`s part. It`s not like they would remember this. Even if they had written the episode, they wouldn`t. Heck, you can even get away with it by going "oh well, things happened exactly the same in both universes until it became Michael-land". 

 

100%. They forgot. Frankly, I am surprised they remembered that this Charlie didn't know Sam and Dean. 

 

I was happy to lose Asmodeus, who I found insufferable, and to get Charlie back in some form. I am pretty amused that apparently they decided to bring everyone back. Mary, Bobby, Charlie, Gabriel. Who's next? Jo and Ellen? Eileen (please be Eileen)? John?

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

I was happy to lose Asmodeus, who I found insufferable, and to get Charlie back in some form. I am pretty amused that apparently they decided to bring everyone back. Mary, Bobby, Charlie, Gabriel. Who's next? Jo and Ellen? Eileen (please be Eileen)? John?

I hate this whole AU thing. I think it's ridiculously stupid.  Although compared to the final season, it's great.  But, come on. Everything's the same except for what isn't?  Dumb dumb dumb.

But, yeah, I'll agree that yay Asmodeus is dead.  I feel like they totally wasted him, though.  I mean he had that whole thing back in the second epi where he wanted to free a bunch of creatures whose name I forgot.  And then he comes so close and we never hear about them again.  He has the capability to look like anyone and all he does with that is impersonate Cas so that he can tell Dante to keep him in the loop.  And as far as we know Dante doesn't end up telling him jack squat.

[The Companion]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I hate this whole AU thing. I think it's ridiculously stupid.  Although compared to the final season, it's great.  But, come on. Everything's the same except for what isn't?  Dumb dumb dumb.

But, yeah, I'll agree that yay Asmodeus is dead.  I feel like they totally wasted him, though.  I mean he had that whole thing back in the second epi where he wanted to free a bunch of creatures whose name I forgot.  And then he comes so close and we never hear about them again.  He has the capability to look like anyone and all he does with that is impersonate Cas so that he can tell Dante to keep him in the loop.  And as far as we know Dante doesn't end up telling him jack squat.

I agree. The point of an AU is to have alternate versions of people. That way you can contrast them. The lazy way is an evil twin. the more interesting thing is to have some variation on a character. 

When he went up into flames, I was surprised because there were so many threads that they didn't follow through on. I was half expecting some context in this forum to explain why the story they set up never had any payoff. On the other hand, I wanted to stab my ears out every time he showed up, so it probably is a good thing. 

[shoetingstar]

On 4/15/2020 at 12:49 PM, The Companion said:

So satisfying.

I love Charlie and I am still irate about how they killed her. I should be thrilled she is back, but all I can think is that they are patting themselves on the back at how they undid that problematic fridging. 🙄 bringing in AU Charlie doesn't change that the way they killed her was problematic and ridiculous.

 

100%. They forgot. Frankly, I am surprised they remembered that this Charlie didn't know Sam and Dean. 

 

I was happy to lose Asmodeus, who I found insufferable, and to get Charlie back in some form. I am pretty amused that apparently they decided to bring everyone back. Mary, Bobby, Charlie, Gabriel. Who's next? Jo and Ellen? Eileen (please be Eileen)? John?

I'm re-watching multiple season, including this one. And this is only because I checked out of 14 and 15, so I'm backtracking to catch-up lol. It's still astounding how lazy and disinterested the writing became in later seasons. Glaring while I'm watching Season 1 through 5. Ass-mo-dayus ate up way too much screentime. So yes that very satisfying!! Middle fingers up, tell him Boy, Bye to you and your stupid suit, per Ketch.

Dean being utterly unprepared was so embarrassing. Just the fact he didn't use a backpack, alone was so impractical. (Now I'm suddenly picturing Dean with a Fanny Pack and it's hilarious😄). He didn't know what to expect and I know he had to carry light, but Ketch at least had gloves that came in handy for the cold.  Was not impressed with my boy Dean here and it seemed ooc for him.

Charlie's return was at first exciting but overall they really didn't commit to anything to justify it (same for all these returning Apocalyptic version of these characters). It was like: "Here we brought her back! Aren't we clever. You don't expect that, huh? Now you can leave us alone about frid--- uh - killing her previously. And....now she's gone. Now leave us alone, mkay."

They really waste potentially good moments/characters/situations on this show. It get frustrating to say the least.

I did like Sam's speech to Gabriel. But the Sam wanting to get out but figuring that Hunting is his destiny as been wash, rinse repeat.  And it was good to see Cas get to be badass, temporarily, for once.

The Ketch/Mary thing is no for me. But I like him as a character.