Season 5: Say It Ain't So! Good-bye Detective Michael Logan

[ML89]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Can you give more details about this episode? Because the only episode I remember with a reporter being murdered was Anchors Away and that was in season 19.

Isn’t the reporter the wife of that sleazy nightclub owner who’s in 5 and 6? She’s covering some kind of local hearing?

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Family Values" is the one that stars a very young Sarah Paulson who had an affair with her stepfather, who murdered her mother. And he was having an affair with someone else, and that someone else thought it was twu wuv too, and initially lied to give him an alibi.

Thank you - I had conflated the two. Family Values is the one I never remember because I lose track halfway through, every time. 

[Xeliou66]

16 minutes ago, ML89 said:

Isn’t the reporter the wife of that sleazy nightclub owner who’s in 5 and 6? She’s covering some kind of local hearing?

Thank you - I had conflated the two. Family Values is the one I never remember because I lose track halfway through, every time. 

Are you talking about Coma, season 5 episode 2? The victim was a reporter covering local events, I forgot that, that’s the one where they suspect the club owner husband of doing it but it turns out he got a junkie he knew to do it for him, and he returned in the season 6 episode Encore where he had his second wife killed as well and he was put away at the end of that one. 

[ML89]

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Are you talking about Coma, season 5 episode 2? The victim was a reporter covering local events, I forgot that, that’s the one where they suspect the club owner husband of doing it but it turns out he got a junkie he knew to do it for him, and he returned in the season 6 episode Encore where he had his second wife killed as well and he was put away at the end of that one. 

Yes, that’s it! (imagine Lucy in Charle Brown Christmas when Schroeder plays the toy piano version of Jingle Bells). Hate Coma and Encore, so it’s weird I remember that detail.

[Columbo]

What I liked about Coma, apart from Larry Miller's smarmy performance, was how tunnel visioned the cops and prosecution was during the episode. They didn't conceive he might have paid someone else to do it until the idea was practically shoved right into their faces.

[Xeliou66]

I watched some season 5 tonight, Family Values being the first one, decent episode, while being pretty straightforward it was interesting to see the legal back and forth about whether the daughter or husband did it and how they nailed the husband in the end.

Next up was White Rabbit, which I like mainly for seeing Bill Kunstler, the legal scenes were really good, I liked when Kunstler asked the accomplice Burdett about the deals he made with the prosecutors and asked if he were to give him his watch would he testify the judge was at the robbery, and Judge Quinn rebuked him saying irritatedly “Mr Kunstler!”. Judge Quinn is a judge I have mixed feelings on, but he was always entertaining and he was good here. 

[ML89]

7 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Next up was White Rabbit, which I like mainly for seeing Bill Kunstler, the legal scenes were really good,

I love the cop side - Lennie remembering the funeral, them going to the FBI and the library, and the interviews with everyone. Really great characterizations all around. “The SDS? I’m a CPA.”

[Xeliou66]

Season 5 is on all day today - I saw Rage, strong episode, I found Bud Greer extremely unlikable, and I loved Jack telling him that he didn’t scare him but he did disgust him and he was nothing but a thief and a murderer hiding behind his race. Greer was so smug and a prick, and his lawyer kind of annoyed me with his motion trying to dismiss the case entirely, it was such a frivolous motion, saying basically that the police should be punished for finding the killer, and I was glad when Judge Callahan shut him down. I liked Jack and Adam’s dialogue when Adam told him to make a deal, and Jack said that would send the message to anyone with an axe to grind that they would have a right to kill and Adam said “no it means we want murderers behind bars”. I understood where both were coming from but I was glad Greer rejected the deal and was found guilty.

Next up was Performance, with the slimebag rapists the Mack Rangers. An episode with an unusual start, season 5 had a few more episodes like that than most seasons, and this was the type of case that would be an SVU episode when SVU came on a few years later. Still a solid episode with some good legal maneuvering. I loved Adam’s line calling the constitution “that pesky thing”, Adam had some of the best lines.

[andromeda331]

19 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Season 5 is on all day today - I saw Rage, strong episode, I found Bud Greer extremely unlikable, and I loved Jack telling him that he didn’t scare him but he did disgust him and he was nothing but a thief and a murderer hiding behind his race. Greer was so smug and a prick, and his lawyer kind of annoyed me with his motion trying to dismiss the case entirely, it was such a frivolous motion, saying basically that the police should be punished for finding the killer, and I was glad when Judge Callahan shut him down. I liked Jack and Adam’s dialogue when Adam told him to make a deal, and Jack said that would send the message to anyone with an axe to grind that they would have a right to kill and Adam said “no it means we want murderers behind bars”. I understood where both were coming from but I was glad Greer rejected the deal and was found guilty.

I hated Bud. He was an asshole. If everyone hates you its you not everyone else.

Quote

Next up was Performance, with the slimebag rapists the Mack Rangers. An episode with an unusual start, season 5 had a few more episodes like that than most seasons, and this was the type of case that would be an SVU episode when SVU came on a few years later. Still a solid episode with some good legal maneuvering. I loved Adam’s line calling the constitution “that pesky thing”, Adam had some of the best lines.

Adam really did. 

[Xeliou66]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I hated Bud. He was an asshole. If everyone hates you its you not everyone else.

Yeah Bud Greer was an asshole, he was extremely arrogant and hostile to everyone and he was a thief and a fraud who committed murder. I loved when Jack told him how disgusted he was with him. 

[Xeliou66]

Precious was just on, one of L&O’s most disturbing episodes about the mom killing her babies - what the fuck was the problem with the spineless, morally bankrupt husband? He knew his wife was killing their kids yet he kept on protecting her and having more kids with her, it was only when she got pregnant for the 4th time that he woke up and turned on her. What a gutless, pathetic excuse for a human. And the mom was just batfuck crazy and evil. It was interesting how this case was referenced in the season 19 episode Falling and Jack acknowledged to Cutter he went too far in trying to get the killer sterilized. Good continuity.

Now Virtue is on, I like this one a lot, a good twist filled case and Jack’s closing argument is one of my favorites, very powerful. 

[Door County Cherry]

3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Precious was just on, one of L&O’s most disturbing episodes about the mom killing her babies - what the fuck was the problem with the spineless, morally bankrupt husband?

He's just the reversal of so many women who go along with what their spouses want.  I think he wasn't sure and thought his job was to be loyal.  Her getting pregnant was him being unable to lie to himself.  But yes, he was spinless.

One of my favorite L&O moments was in this episode when Lennie and Logan suddenly look at the doctor when she mentioned the main pediatrician was the one who treated their other children. So good. 

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Precious was just on, one of L&O’s most disturbing episodes about the mom killing her babies - what the fuck was the problem with the spineless, morally bankrupt husband? He knew his wife was killing their kids yet he kept on protecting her and having more kids with her, it was only when she got pregnant for the 4th time that he woke up and turned on her. What a gutless, pathetic excuse for a human. And the mom was just batfuck crazy and evil. It was interesting how this case was referenced in the season 19 episode Falling and Jack acknowledged to Cutter he went too far in trying to get the killer sterilized. Good continuity.

Now Virtue is on, I like this one a lot, a good twist filled case and Jack’s closing argument is one of my favorites, very powerful. 

He really was. He loved his babies but knew his wife was killing them and did nothing. It pisses me off that he did nothing while his kids were being murdered but has the nerve to be outraged when she got pregnant again. There are have been cases of it women doing that and their husbands doing nothing. Marybeth Tinning killing 8 or 9 of their kids. Her husband is still married to her. There are probably others. It's insane.

Jack did go to far in trying to sterlize her. It stinks how close she came to walking out the door with another baby on the way to kill. I do like that it was brought up later.

[Xeliou66]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

He really was. He loved his babies but knew his wife was killing them and did nothing. It pisses me off that he did nothing while his kids were being murdered but has the nerve to be outraged when she got pregnant again. There are have been cases of it women doing that and their husbands doing nothing. Marybeth Tinning killing 8 or 9 of their kids. Her husband is still married to her. There are probably others. It's insane.

Jack did go to far in trying to sterlize her. It stinks how close she came to walking out the door with another baby on the way to kill. I do like that it was brought up later.

That guy was just such a spineless loser, he really pissed me off, being willing to constantly cover and lie for his wife and then continuing to have children with her knowing how crazy and dangerous she was. I wonder what happened to her kid that she was pregnant with when the episode ended, I hope he/she was put up for adoption and never had anything to do with the bio parents. 

[andromeda331]

On 8/13/2022 at 8:58 AM, Xeliou66 said:

That guy was just such a spineless loser, he really pissed me off, being willing to constantly cover and lie for his wife and then continuing to have children with her knowing how crazy and dangerous she was. I wonder what happened to her kid that she was pregnant with when the episode ended, I hope he/she was put up for adoption and never had anything to do with the bio parents. 

I hope so. That would be the best outcome for the baby. 

[Xeliou66]

Bad Faith was just on - such a good episode, especially for Logan, he was at his passionate best in it. Father Joe was such a despicable scumbag, I liked how the DA’s found a way to prosecute him, and it was quite satisfying seeing him put away, what an evil sack of crap. It was a good twist that Marino killed himself and the officers covered it up. Logan confronting Father Joe at the end was intense. 

It was really nice to see Cragen, and this was his first episode since his departure from the main cast, it was interesting to see him running the anti corruption task force, and I liked the Cragen/Logan scenes, they had a really good relationship and Cragen seemed to treat Logan (and the other detectives on L&O) more like an equal than a subordinate, and I especially liked their scene at the restaurant where Logan talked to Cragen about whether he would have to testify. Cragen’s great and it’s awesome that he came back after leaving and later became a regular on SVU, and even this year appeared on SVU and Organized Crime.

The one minor thing that was off was Cragen’s line that he had a 14 year old, when prior and future episodes confirmed Cragen had no children. One of the very few sloppy continuity errors in L&O history.  

Season 5 had such a good cast with great chemistry, I love each character. 

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Bad Faith was just on - such a good episode, especially for Logan, he was at his passionate best in it. Father Joe was such a despicable scumbag, I liked how the DA’s found a way to prosecute him, and it was quite satisfying seeing him put away, what an evil sack of crap. It was a good twist that Marino killed himself and the officers covered it up. Logan confronting Father Joe at the end was intense. 

It was really nice to see Cragen, and this was his first episode since his departure from the main cast, it was interesting to see him running the anti corruption task force, and I liked the Cragen/Logan scenes, they had a really good relationship and Cragen seemed to treat Logan (and the other detectives on L&O) more like an equal than a subordinate, and I especially liked their scene at the restaurant where Logan talked to Cragen about whether he would have to testify. Cragen’s great and it’s awesome that he came back after leaving and later became a regular on SVU, and even this year appeared on SVU and Organized Crime.

The one minor thing that was off was Cragen’s line that he had a 14 year old, when prior and future episodes confirmed Cragen had no children. One of the very few sloppy continuity errors in L&O history.  

Season 5 had such a good cast with great chemistry, I love each character. 

I agree it was such a great episode. Logan went through so much in that episode. He was great in every scene. It was great seeing Cragen. They had good scenes together. I love his scene at the end with Father Joe. I also liked McCoy shutting him down when he started to talk about being sick. That was crap he was an adult and they were children.

[Xeliou66]

12 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree it was such a great episode. Logan went through so much in that episode. He was great in every scene. It was great seeing Cragen. They had good scenes together. I love his scene at the end with Father Joe. I also liked McCoy shutting him down when he started to talk about being sick. That was crap he was an adult and they were children.

Yeah Bad Faith is one of my favorite episodes for Logan, he was so good in it, particularly confronting Father Joe at the end and I loved his scenes with Cragen. I liked Jack’s disgust with Father Joe as well, he was a complete piece of shit who preyed on vulnerable, innocent children, including his own son. It was an interesting plot and I liked how the DA’s weren’t afraid to take on the church. 

[andromeda331]

19 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah Bad Faith is one of my favorite episodes for Logan, he was so good in it, particularly confronting Father Joe at the end and I loved his scenes with Cragen. I liked Jack’s disgust with Father Joe as well, he was a complete piece of shit who preyed on vulnerable, innocent children, including his own son. It was an interesting plot and I liked how the DA’s weren’t afraid to take on the church. 

I always liked how they weren't afraid to take on the church either.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Watching season five today and I’d forgotten how GOOD “Progeny” is. Can’t wait for Jack’s examination of Seeley where that Coward can’t admit he himself doesn’t have the guts to do the murdering himself.

Loved Jack telling the court to arrest the character witness who first hedged about how she was “in effect committing murder” and then admitted that’s what she was doing when she used to perform abortions.

It’s right up there with Season One’s “Life Choice” as far as I’m concerned.

[Xeliou66]

33 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Watching season five today and I’d forgotten how GOOD “Progeny” is. Can’t wait for Jack’s examination of Seeley where that Coward can’t admit he himself doesn’t have the guts to do the murdering himself.

Loved Jack telling the court to arrest the character witness who first hedged about how she was “in effect committing murder” and then admitted that’s what she was doing when she used to perform abortions.

It’s right up there with Season One’s “Life Choice” as far as I’m concerned.

Yes Progeny is a very good episode, I loved Jack’s cross of Seeley as well, where he got Seeley to admit he didn’t have it in him to pull the trigger himself. I also love Rodgers response to Garnett when asked about different parts of the body dying at different times, telling him his point was moot. It’s a strong episode. 

Watching Rage now, this is another excellent episode, Bud Greer was a memorable perp, I didn’t feel any sympathy for him, as Jack said he was just a killer and a thief hiding behind his race. He was such a smug miserable prick, I have a feeling the reason most of his co-workers didn’t like him was because he was a hostile asshole and not because of his race. 

[Door County Cherry]

I just watched "Performance" and I wonder why they didn't go after a child porn charge.  They not only filmed it but they sold it.  Multiple tapes.

[Spartan Girl]

Watched “Wannabe”. No pity for my cold dead heart for Colin or his stupid dad. Oh boo hoo, his schoolmates and their headmaster were snobs. He brought a gun to school and threatened a kid, he deserved to be expelled. And it doesn’t justify killing the headmaster on his child’s birthday—and he still refuses to rat out Stewart, who goaded him to do it, because “principles”? So murder is okay, but you draw the line at snitching? Boy, bye.

His father can take several seats too. The headmaster did not “ruin his future”, Colin did that all by himself.

Now “Act of God” is on, where that bitch and her lover blew up a building, accidentally killing a boy, and framed her husband to take the fall. Ughhhhhh. No, her eleventh hour remorse didn’t move me, she deserved everything she got.

[Xeliou66]

Bad Faith was on, that’s a great episode and maybe the best episode for Logan, I love his intensity and emotion when confronting sicko bastard Father Joe. Great to see Cragen back, I love his discussion with Mike at the restaurant, though the line where Cragen said he had a 14 year old was one of the few examples of poor continuity on L&O, as Cragen had no children, the writers didn’t do a good job there. I always liked the relationship between Cragen and the detectives on the Mothership, he was more of a friend/equal to them than Van Buren was, as shown by how they called him by his first name. Some good legal stuff as well, I loved the DA’s being unafraid to take on the church, Father Joe was such a piece of shit, even molested his own son, and he can shove his whining, I hope he died a slow miserable death behind bars.

Purple Heart is now on, another favorite of mine, really great legal battle and detective work, and I loved how the DA’s outmaneuvered the defense in court.

[WendyCR72]

25 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Bad Faith was on, that’s a great episode and maybe the best episode for Logan, I love his intensity and emotion when confronting sicko bastard Father Joe. Great to see Cragen back, I love his discussion with Mike at the restaurant, though the line where Cragen said he had a 14 year old was one of the few examples of poor continuity on L&O, as Cragen had no children, the writers didn’t do a good job there. I always liked the relationship between Cragen and the detectives on the Mothership, he was more of a friend/equal to them than Van Buren was, as shown by how they called him by his first name. Some good legal stuff as well, I loved the DA’s being unafraid to take on the church, Father Joe was such a piece of shit, even molested his own son, and he can shove his whining, I hope he died a slow miserable death behind bars.

Purple Heart is now on, another favorite of mine, really great legal battle and detective work, and I loved how the DA’s outmaneuvered the defense in court.

Well, technically, I think it was SVU that retconned Cragen's kid out of existence? So in context here, it seemed fine. Since SVU would not debut for another 4 years at that point...

[Xeliou66]

15 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Well, technically, I think it was SVU that retconned Cragen's kid out of existence? So in context here, it seemed fine. Since SVU would not debut for another 4 years at that point...

Except Cragen never mentioned having a kid during his first 3 years on the Mothership and it was kind of implied he had no kids, even if it might not have been outright stated. So it came out of nowhere that Cragen said that and then SVU made it clear he had no children. Like I say, it’s one of the few continuity flaws in L&O history, overall they did good with continuity, but this was glaring. Still I enjoyed Cragen’s appearance in this episode, he always had a good relationship with Logan and it was nice seeing them talk. I would’ve liked a scene between Cragen and Lennie, since they worked with each other in season 3, but at least they had scenes again in the future when Lennie made a couple of appearances in SVU season 1. 

[balmz]

unless he adopted a kid or something and the kid died, that's the only thing that would make sense

[Xeliou66]

32 minutes ago, balmz said:

unless he adopted a kid or something and the kid died, that's the only thing that would make sense

It was made explicitly clear in SVU that Cragen and his wife Marge never had children, he even said they tried but it never happened. So it’s a blatant continuity error.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I remember the real life “crew” that played the game sex for points that “Performance” was based on. One of their victims appeared on that awful Jenny Jones show and I think  the members also did the same. And at least on this show, the guilty got some comeuppance, though In😒😒😒 at the measly two years. I was 🙌🙌 at Mr. Quinn who told his lame ass son to tell the truth. At least in fictionland, one father with integrity and who didn’t put up with his son’s criminal behavior.

“Seed” is another one I remember as the verdict for the real life doctor in Virginia, cut in on Limbaugh’s show at the radio station I was interning at. He at least, was found guilty.

As for Cragen, didn’t he make some line about playing spin the bottle during his years on this show? Or was that line in “Bad Faith” and thus the only reference that he had a teenager? But yes, if he did have a child, you would have expected him to show up in the first season finale.

It just tickles me whenever I see the actress who originally played Marie Greevy, show up as different characters on this show. First as a psychiatrist in ”Privileged”, and then a few more times as a judge. Oh! Also as one of the witnesses who never reported on the attack and rape in the “Kitty Genovese” ripped from the headlines episode.

Edited September 5, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[balmz]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

It was made explicitly clear in SVU that Cragen and his wife Marge never had children, he even said they tried but it never happened. So it’s a blatant continuity error.

oh never mind then

[GHScorpiosRule]

And hearing Jack snap back at Barclay about how Mike is a “Mick” as well as Jack himself, and if he doesn’t shut up, he’ll (Jack) lose his temper and throw him out of the room! So he suggests that Barclay shut the hell up! makes me😂😂😆😆

And in “Cruel and Unusual” when Mike seems to be the only one who cares what’s going on with the autistic kids, and Van Buren posits, what would you do if you found out someone was abusing your child:

Mike: “This is America. I’d sue the bastard.”

Me:😆😆😆😆😆😆

But Dr. Colter couldn’t have been the ONLY doctor who could help these kids. I didn’t like the ending where Mrs. Vilardi asks Jack if he would take her child now that the abusive clinic was shut down. The cops went to the state that gave him funds to run his clinic, so I assume there were others.

Edited September 5, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay, confirmation that Cragen’s line about his 14-year playing Spin the Bottle was in “Bad Faith” but EWWWW! One of the unis that messed with Morino’s body to make it look like he didn’t commit suicide, is the same actor who would later return as the DICKISH ASSHOLE of Chief of Detectives that tried to run Van Buren off the force because of her lawsuit.

But AWESOME! That Dann Florek directed this. He did a great job.

Edited September 5, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I didn’t like the ending where Mrs. Vilardi asks Jack if he would take her child now that the abusive clinic was shut down. The cops went to the state that gave him funds to run his clinic, so I assume there were others

Ugh, I’m sorry but I lost all sympathy for her when she whined about how that abusive treatment gave her a son “that LOVED her.” 

1) Neurodivergent/disabled/special needs people are more than capable of love, so STFU

2) It’s your job to love your kids. They are not obligated to love you back if you treat them like a burden, so STFU.

[balmz]

hmm what was the context of line where cragen says he had a kid?

the only thing i can think of that might make sense was if he after marge died adopted a kid but they died or something happened, though at least the kid wasn't a screenhog with personal plots and a very performative and fake attempt at being socially forward in the series

[illdoc]

14 hours ago, balmz said:

what was the context of line where cragen says he had a kid?

Maybe he meant it in a "if my (hypothetical) 14-year old wanted....." way????

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, illdoc said:

Maybe he meant it in a "if my (hypothetical) 14-year old wanted....." way????

No. Cragen actually said “My 14-year old …spin the bottle.” to Mike when his officers at his new command were questioning him about Morino. Or maybe they were Internal Affairs. But it wasn’t hypothetical.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 8/12/2022 at 9:32 PM, Door County Cherry said:

He's just the reversal of so many women who go along with what their spouses want.  I think he wasn't sure and thought his job was to be loyal.  Her getting pregnant was him being unable to lie to himself.  But yes, he was spinless.

When the detectives were interviewing the husband's sister, she says something like her brother thought he'd be a bachelor forever before he met his wife, so it wasn't only loyalty, as sad as that is. He believed he'd be alone forever, and then he found someone he thought he could be happy with. His bad luck that she was unstable, unstable enough that she was pregnant again while on trial for killing their other daughter.

[Xeliou66]

10 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

When the detectives were interviewing the husband's sister, she says something like her brother thought he'd be a bachelor forever before he met his wife, so it wasn't only loyalty, as sad as that is. He believed he'd be alone forever, and then he found someone he thought he could be happy with. His bad luck that she was unstable, unstable enough that she was pregnant again while on trial for killing their other daughter.

I still didn’t feel an ounce of sympathy for him, he was spineless, he could’ve stopped his loony wife from killing their kids and he was too spineless to do so, and he kept on making future victims with his wife. Spineless chickenshit coward.

[Xeliou66]

2 of my favorite episodes from this season were just on - Progeny and Rage - Progeny has some great courtroom moments, I love Jack tearing that asswipe Seeley to shreds on cross, getting Seeley thrown off and proving he didn’t even believe his own defense. Also ME Rodgers had that great response to Garnett’s questions that I’ve posted over on the quotes thread, she shut him down well. And Schiff at the end was great as well “don’t you love it when everybody’s happy”, classic Schiff line.

Rage is great as well, Bud Greer was such a smug asshole, I loved Jack telling him how disgusted he was with him, Bud was just a con artist who killed to cover it up, and while his lawyer’s “black rage” defense was interesting, I didn’t buy it and I think people disliked Bud because he was a hostile jackass who had a disdain for everyone and a large chip on his shoulder, not because he was black. I liked the investigation into the murder and the trial scenes, really good episode. 

[andromeda331]

On 11/1/2022 at 7:11 PM, Xeliou66 said:

2 of my favorite episodes from this season were just on - Progeny and Rage - Progeny has some great courtroom moments, I love Jack tearing that asswipe Seeley to shreds on cross, getting Seeley thrown off and proving he didn’t even believe his own defense. Also ME Rodgers had that great response to Garnett’s questions that I’ve posted over on the quotes thread, she shut him down well. And Schiff at the end was great as well “don’t you love it when everybody’s happy”, classic Schiff line.

I love Jack proving Seeley didn't believe his own defense. That was really good. I'm always happy when ME Rodgers gets good scenes and good lines. She's one of my favorites. 
 

Quote

Rage is great as well, Bud Greer was such a smug asshole, I loved Jack telling him how disgusted he was with him, Bud was just a con artist who killed to cover it up, and while his lawyer’s “black rage” defense was interesting, I didn’t buy it and I think people disliked Bud because he was a hostile jackass who had a disdain for everyone and a large chip on his shoulder, not because he was black. I liked the investigation into the murder and the trial scenes, really good episode. 

I agree. Everyone hated Bud because he was a smug asshole not because he was black. He also was clearly incompetent which was why he killed his boss who had figured it out. I love how he talks about how hard it was for him when his boss talked to him. Hard? Maybe not as hard as the poor daughter who found her father murdered. 

[Xeliou66]

20 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I love Jack proving Seeley didn't believe his own defense. That was really good. I'm always happy when ME Rodgers gets good scenes and good lines. She's one of my favorites. 
 

I agree. Everyone hated Bud because he was a smug asshole not because he was black. He also was clearly incompetent which was why he killed his boss who had figured it out. I love how he talks about how hard it was for him when his boss talked to him. Hard? Maybe not as hard as the poor daughter who found her father murdered. 

Yeah Jack’s cross of Seeley was one of his best crosses. Seeley was a piece of shit but deep down he knew all murder was wrong. I liked Claire’s passion about the case and Adam’s lines, the entire cast in season 5 had awesome chemistry. And ME Rodgers is one of my favorites as well.

In Rage, I loved Jack’s disgust with Bud, and yeah Bud was disliked because of his smug attitude and being a total dick to everyone, he used racism as an excuse to be nasty to everyone, regardless of their race, and he was a phony as well who would do anything to get ahead. A very unlikable character. So interesting that the actor went on to play the very likable and laid back ADA Ron Carver on CI, he pulled off both roles well. ME Rodgers had another good scene in Rage where she explained how the victim was killed and how the gunshot was for show and the scene was staged. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah Jack’s cross of Seeley was one of his best crosses. Seeley was a piece of shit but deep down he knew all murder was wrong. I liked Claire’s passion about the case and Adam’s lines, the entire cast in season 5 had awesome chemistry. And ME Rodgers is one of my favorites as well.

In Rage, I loved Jack’s disgust with Bud, and yeah Bud was disliked because of his smug attitude and being a total dick to everyone, he used racism as an excuse to be nasty to everyone, regardless of their race, and he was a phony as well who would do anything to get ahead. A very unlikable character. So interesting that the actor went on to play the very likable and laid back ADA Ron Carver on CI, he pulled off both roles well. ME Rodgers had another good scene in Rage where she explained how the victim was killed and how the gunshot was for show and the scene was staged. 

He was really talented to play Carver and Bud so well. 

[Xeliou66]

On 11/8/2022 at 1:50 AM, andromeda331 said:

He was really talented to play Carver and Bud so well. 

Yeah he’s a great actor - he made Carver so smooth and likable while Bud was such a hostile asshole. Bud is one of the perps that angered me the most on L&O - he was incredibly arrogant, a total fraud and a crybaby, he was running a fraud scheme and murdered a man to cover it up and then he tried to make everyone else feel guilty over his crimes. I loved Jack telling Bud just how disgusted he was with him. It’s a great episode, and I like the investigation a lot as well - Logan was spot on zeroing in on Bud being the killer and it was an entertaining investigation. 

[andromeda331]

On 11/15/2022 at 6:32 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah he’s a great actor - he made Carver so smooth and likable while Bud was such a hostile asshole. Bud is one of the perps that angered me the most on L&O - he was incredibly arrogant, a total fraud and a crybaby, he was running a fraud scheme and murdered a man to cover it up and then he tried to make everyone else feel guilty over his crimes. I loved Jack telling Bud just how disgusted he was with him. It’s a great episode, and I like the investigation a lot as well - Logan was spot on zeroing in on Bud being the killer and it was an entertaining investigation. 

Me too. He acted like everyone was after him because he was black and not because he committed fraud which was found out by his boss who he then murdered. He was a shitty person and did terrible at his job. He was at fault for everything but blamed everyone else. He wouldn't listen to what anyone said because he thought he was so far superior to everyone.  

Edited November 21, 2022 by andromeda331

[Xeliou66]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Me too. He acted like everyone was after him because he was black and not because he committed fraud which was found out by his boss who he then murdered. He was a shitty person and did terrible at his job. He was at fault for everything but blamed everyone else. He wouldn't listen to what anyone said because he thought he was so far superior to everyone.  

Yeah that sums up Bud well, he was a total fraud who conned people because he couldn’t do his job well and then killed to cover it up. He was extremely arrogant and smug and had a huge chip on his shoulder and was hostile to everyone, and that’s why no one liked him. I liked Jack telling him he didn’t want to make a deal and that he was disgusted with him, that he was a con artist who was trying to con the court after conning Wall St. Logan’s instincts about him were spot on. 

[shapeshifter]

Just re-watched 5.10, "House Counsel" on the Bounce OTA sub-channel, in which "McCoy has a battle of wits with his long-time friend, a mobster's defense attorney."

On 7/1/2014 at 10:19 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

McCoy, who gives Vincent Pastore's murderer, only five years for killing four people, because he agreed to give Furini immunity for any crimes he admitted to when testifying against Koppel. Adam was in fine form with his sarcasm, and Jack's all like "I had NO IDEA that he killed all those people" when he gave him immunity, and Adam comes up with this gem, because it was SO TRUE:

"Your blood was streaming downward toward somewhere south of the border" when Jack made the deal, meaning Jack was thinking about his dick, and just winning. And not thinking with his head that houses his brain!

The episode is well-written with neither wasted nor missing dialog (my primary complaint with the reboot) but I'm wondering if Jack should have excused himself at some point and had Claire (or someone else) prosecute his friend of "a quarter of a century."

[Xeliou66]

7 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Just re-watched 5.10, "House Counsel" on the Bounce OTA sub-channel, in which "McCoy has a battle of wits with his long-time friend, a mobster's defense attorney."

The episode is well-written with neither wasted nor missing dialog (my primary complaint with the reboot) but I'm wondering if Jack should have excused himself at some point and had Claire (or someone else) prosecute his friend of "a quarter of a century."

I like that episode pretty good but I do wonder if Jack should’ve let someone else take over the prosecution, or if Adam should’ve taken him off the case. I do love Adam’s rant about the plea deal “what is this, Bernie’s bargain basement?!”. I like the investigation a lot with how Logan/Briscoe linked the crime to the mob and then figured out their motive to kill the guy.

[andromeda331]

On 12/4/2022 at 9:10 AM, shapeshifter said:

Just re-watched 5.10, "House Counsel" on the Bounce OTA sub-channel, in which "McCoy has a battle of wits with his long-time friend, a mobster's defense attorney."

The episode is well-written with neither wasted nor missing dialog (my primary complaint with the reboot) but I'm wondering if Jack should have excused himself at some point and had Claire (or someone else) prosecute his friend of "a quarter of a century."

I liked Adam's response to that. It was great. Ah, Jack he was in the mob you know damn he probably killed a bunch of people. You didn't care because it got you want you wanted until of course you heard the number. I agree Jack should have been taken off the case. I do like them prosecuting the mob lawyer. I know even the mob has a right to the defense but I've always been suspicious of their lawyers. I don't think you can really work for them even as a lawyer without getting dirty. This lawyer seemed to jump in willingly.

[shapeshifter]

I just watched 5.15 "Seed" from 1995, which is pre-Ancestry.com, 23 and Me, etc..

Eventually the detectives and the prosecutors learn that a fertility doctor inseminated dozens of women with eggs fertilized by his own sperm, and that most of them carry the gene for Cystic Fibrosis. 

Claire and Jack bring at least 2 cases against the "Good Doctor," but by the end of the episode, the Not-So-Good Doctor boasts:

Quote

"I create something, where nothing was before. God doesn't make babies, Mr. McCoy. I do."
McCoy has to admit that . . . they have no case without a witness. Kincaid asks if they'll ever find someone to testify against Gilbert [to which Jack replies]:
"Jesus had his Judas. And he's not Jesus." tvtropes...Recap/LawAndOrderS5E15Seed

The actor who played the doctor appeared again in L&O in a different role, so he was available, but the case was never revisited. Those (fictional) babies would now be in their 30s. 

Apparently this is not so different from reality: "He Found Out He Had 32 Siblings. For The Times Magazine, He Took Their Pictures" (2019) nytimes.com/2019/06/29/reader-center/sperm-donor-siblings.html

Edited December 11, 2022 by shapeshifter

[GHScorpiosRule]

39 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I just watched 5.15 "Seed" from 1995, which is pre-Ancestry.com, 23 and Me, etc..

Eventually the detectives and the prosecutors learn that a fertility doctor inseminated dozens of women with eggs fertilized by his own sperm, and that most of them carry the gene for Cystic Fibrosis. 

Claire and Jack bring at least 2 cases against the "Good Doctor," but by the end of the episode, the Not-So-Good Doctor boasts:

The actor who played the doctor appeared again in L&O in a different role, so he was available, but the case was never revisited. Those (fictional) babies would now be in their 30s. 

Apparently this is not so different from reality: "He Found Out He Had 32 Siblings. For The Times Magazine, He Took Their Pictures" (2019) nytimes.com/2019/06/29/reader-center/sperm-donor-siblings.html

The article is behind a paywall, so I don’t know if it’s the same case. But “Seed” was based on a doctor in Virginia who did this. And the real life doctor was convicted. I posted up thread pages back how I was interning at a radio news station when the verdict came in and Limbaugh’s National show was interrupted. His listeners weren’t pleased and flooded the station with calls, bitching me out when I tried to explain we were primarily a NEWS station.

[TakomaSnark]

'Second Opinion' is on now and I am finding it surprisingly touching after x many viewings. 'You wanted the woman you married. You wanted her whole. So you believed it.'