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Season 5: Say It Ain't So! Good-bye Detective Michael Logan


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14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I just watched 5.15 "Seed" from 1995, which is pre-Ancestry.com, 23 and Me, etc..

Eventually the detectives and the prosecutors learn that a fertility doctor inseminated dozens of women with eggs fertilized by his own sperm,

13 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Seed” was based on a doctor in Virginia who did this. And the real life doctor was convicted.

Coincidentally, I happened to watch a CW show this evening, Family Law, 1.10 "Legacy" with almost the same plot again. Interestingly, even though it was discovered through the 21st century DNA services, the end result was pretty much the same.
I think it should be free on the CW website for at least a few days, even without a subscription.

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I watched Competence last night, this is such a great feature for Van Buren, she was really good throughout, it was always nice when she took center stage. It was interesting how Logan was more sympathetic to Van Buren than Briscoe was, when usually Van Buren had a smoother relationship with Briscoe than Logan. I liked Logan standing up to that smug snake Burnett. I understood each of the DA’s positions about it, Jack came off as a bit harsh at times but he was right that they shouldn’t give Van Buren preferential treatment because she’s a cop they know. I liked Anita’s scenes with Olivet as well. The whole episode was a really good one for Van Buren. And I loved the ending scene between Jack and Anita.

Next up was Precious, and I’ll say again that that husband was the most pathetic, spineless sack of garbage you’ll see, he just stood by while his wife killed their kids and kept on making babies with her, it wasn’t until the end that he finally stood up and even then it seemed like he still loved the crazy witch for some reason. I liked Adam’s ending line about how by the time the mom would get out of prison the kid would be old enough to defend itself. 

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On 12/17/2022 at 10:05 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I watched Competence last night, this is such a great feature for Van Buren, she was really good throughout, it was always nice when she took center stage. It was interesting how Logan was more sympathetic to Van Buren than Briscoe was, when usually Van Buren had a smoother relationship with Briscoe than Logan. I liked Logan standing up to that smug snake Burnett. I understood each of the DA’s positions about it, Jack came off as a bit harsh at times but he was right that they shouldn’t give Van Buren preferential treatment because she’s a cop they know. I liked Anita’s scenes with Olivet as well. The whole episode was a really good one for Van Buren. And I loved the ending scene between Jack and Anita.

I did think Jack was a little harsh but he was right. He also was new. He didn't known Van Buren as well as everyone else. It was a really good episode for Van Buren I always liked when they focused on her because we didn't get that many episodes where they did. She was always great but it was always really nice to see her outside her role as boss.  
 

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Next up was Precious, and I’ll say again that that husband was the most pathetic, spineless sack of garbage you’ll see, he just stood by while his wife killed their kids and kept on making babies with her, it wasn’t until the end that he finally stood up and even then it seemed like he still loved the crazy witch for some reason. I liked Adam’s ending line about how by the time the mom would get out of prison the kid would be old enough to defend itself. 


I hate the husband every bit as much as his wife. Yeah, she was a psycho but he did nothing to stop it. He could have way back before she killed so many kids. There was no excuse for that and he should be in jail for the rest of his life as should she. How could he do nothing while she was murdering their children? How could he still love her?  He's as crazy as she is. 

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On 12/19/2022 at 3:38 AM, andromeda331 said:

I did think Jack was a little harsh but he was right. He also was new. He didn't known Van Buren as well as everyone else. It was a really good episode for Van Buren I always liked when they focused on her because we didn't get that many episodes where they did. She was always great but it was always really nice to see her outside her role as boss.  
 

I hate the husband every bit as much as his wife. Yeah, she was a psycho but he did nothing to stop it. He could have way back before she killed so many kids. There was no excuse for that and he should be in jail for the rest of his life as should she. How could he do nothing while she was murdering their children? How could he still love her?  He's as crazy as she is. 

Jack wasn’t new to the DA’s office though, he had been there for a while, we just hadn’t seen his cases until season 5. Van Buren was new to being in charge of the Homicide detectives though, this was only her second season replacing Cragen as the homicide detectives boss. I always liked when Van Buren got to take center stage and she had a lot of good scenes in Competence. Van Buren is a great character, and Competence was a really good episode.

Yeah that husband was just spineless and pathetic, I have no idea how he could continue to not only love his wife knowing she was killing their kids but he continued to have more kids with her, even after she got arrested she got pregnant again. I agree he should’ve gone to jail as an accessory to his batfuck crazy wife. Something was seriously wrong with both of them.

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3 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Jack wasn’t new to the DA’s office though, he had been there for a while, we just hadn’t seen his cases until season 5. Van Buren was new to being in charge of the Homicide detectives though, this was only her second season replacing Cragen as the homicide detectives boss. I always liked when Van Buren got to take center stage and she had a lot of good scenes in Competence. Van Buren is a great character, and Competence was a really good episode.

Yeah, but he might not have worked with her before. It was a very good episode. 

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Yeah that husband was just spineless and pathetic, I have no idea how he could continue to not only love his wife knowing she was killing their kids but he continued to have more kids with her, even after she got arrested she got pregnant again. I agree he should’ve gone to jail as an accessory to his batfuck crazy wife. Something was seriously wrong with both of them.


 

Yeah, something was wrong with both of them. 

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20 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Competence was a really good episode.

I love Mike and Lennie in this one, Mike behind Van Buren, Lennie holding back a bit because what if it hurts her - love that. They are both terrific with Gwen, too.

 

17 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, something was wrong with both of them. 

Logan, snarky: He's got a bad back.

Those two were made for each other. That moment when she says "Why doesn't anybody pay attention to me!" explains so much.

 

 

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Good season 5 marathon on today -

Guardian was up first, good episode, I really liked the detective work from Briscoe/Logan in this one to figure out who was behind it. It was a big gamble by Jack to ask about the deceased’s vomit in the defendant’s car - I think had the case gone to verdict the defense could’ve won on appeal. I wonder what would’ve happened if Kamen had never taken the stand, would that have been a better move than getting on the stand and lying about what happened. I do think the detectives made a mistake by waiting until he was in the car to arrest him and thus the evidence was tossed, they should’ve investigated more and then got a search warrant. Interesting that Schiff and Van Buren clashed over the arrest. It’s a good case with good twists.

Progeny was up next - good episode, I love McCoy’s cross of that asswipe Seeley and getting him to admit he didn’t believe his own defense, that was awesome. Rodgers was also great telling Garnett his question was moot when testifying. Schiff had some great lines, I love his ending line of “don’t you love it when everybody’s happy”. Kincaid was good as well in this one.

Now I’m watching Rage - great episode, Bud is a memorable villain. I love Jack’s disgust with him, Jack was spot on when he said Bud was a con artist and a killer who was trying to use racial issues to get off the hook. Bud was disliked because he was a smug asshole who was hostile to everyone and thought he was better than everyone, not because of his race. His lawyer did a good job though. Hard to believe the same actor who played Bud played the smooth, relaxed and upstanding ADA Carver on Criminal Intent later on, he pulled off both roles well. I liked Rodgers explaining how the murder took place and telling Lennie he won detective of the week for suspecting murder. Good detective work and investigation in this one as well. This is one of my favorites from season 5.

Season 5 has a great cast of characters with really good chemistry together and some strong and memorable storylines. 

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8 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Guardian was up first, good episode, I really liked the detective work from Briscoe/Logan in this one to figure out who was behind it.

Peking Duck! And Van Buren talking about the clothes...

 

9 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Progeny was up next - good episode, I love McCoy’s cross of that asswipe Seeley and getting him to admit he didn’t believe his own defense, that was awesome.

This one is great too.

 

9 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Now I’m watching Rage - great episode, Bud is a memorable villain.

"Not only am I smarter than them, I'm smarter than you, Detective." The apple analogy is terrific - I love all the support staff folks from those seasons.

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7 minutes ago, ML89 said:

Peking Duck! And Van Buren talking about the clothes...

 

This one is great too.

 

"Not only am I smarter than them, I'm smarter than you, Detective." The apple analogy is terrific - I love all the support staff folks from those seasons.

Yeah I loved the detective work in Guardian with them tracking down the Chinese restaurant that the deceased ate from and finding the apartment.

I liked the scene where the forensic accountant used the apple analogy to explain Bud’s fraud scheme as well - that was really good. Briscoe/Logan did a good investigation and I liked how the zeroed in on Bud. Bud was so arrogant and hostile to everyone, and then he acted like he didn’t know why he wasn’t well-liked. I love the minor characters as well who assist the detectives and lawyers. ME Rodgers is one of my favorites.  

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On 4/4/2023 at 2:05 PM, ML89 said:

Not only am I smarter than them, I'm smarter than you, Detective."

I remembered it wrong - it’s not smarter, it’s better, referring back to Mike’s punks knocking over the 7-11.

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On 4/4/2023 at 12:05 PM, ML89 said:

Peking Duck! And Van Buren talking about the clothes...

 

This one is great too.

 

"Not only am I smarter than them, I'm smarter than you, Detective." The apple analogy is terrific - I love all the support staff folks from those seasons.

Which made his getting convicted all the more better. Enjoy prison Mr. I'm smarter and better then you. I really hate that guy.

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On 4/4/2023 at 11:53 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Good season 5 marathon on today -

Guardian was up first, good episode, I really liked the detective work from Briscoe/Logan in this one to figure out who was behind it. It was a big gamble by Jack to ask about the deceased’s vomit in the defendant’s car - I think had the case gone to verdict the defense could’ve won on appeal. I wonder what would’ve happened if Kamen had never taken the stand, would that have been a better move than getting on the stand and lying about what happened. I do think the detectives made a mistake by waiting until he was in the car to arrest him and thus the evidence was tossed, they should’ve investigated more and then got a search warrant. Interesting that Schiff and Van Buren clashed over the arrest. It’s a good case with good twists.

I'm kind of split on the arrest. The cops are right they aren't entitled to a speedy arrest and arrests have been made when their in the car. While it was clear they waited to so they could search the car. I'm still not completely sure it was illegal or the wrong thing to do. Cops have arrested people on purpose while hoping to catch  them with drugs and other stuff on them.

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Progeny was up next - good episode, I love McCoy’s cross of that asswipe Seeley and getting him to admit he didn’t believe his own defense, that was awesome. Rodgers was also great telling Garnett his question was moot when testifying. Schiff had some great lines, I love his ending line of “don’t you love it when everybody’s happy”. Kincaid was good as well in this one.

 

That cross was the best moment of the episode.

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On 4/10/2023 at 12:54 AM, andromeda331 said:

I'm kind of split on the arrest. The cops are right they aren't entitled to a speedy arrest and arrests have been made when their in the car. While it was clear they waited to so they could search the car. I'm still not completely sure it was illegal or the wrong thing to do. Cops have arrested people on purpose while hoping to catch  them with drugs and other stuff on them.

That cross was the best moment of the episode.

Yeah the arrest in the car in Guardian was interesting and I could see a judge going either way on that, but I thought the detectives should’ve gathered more evidence so they could’ve gotten a proper search warrant rather than resorting to a stunt that wound up backfiring. I also thought the defense might have a good appeal seeing that Jack brought up the evidence found in the car when cross examining the defendant, so I wondered if the defense would’ve been smarter to let him be found guilty and then appeal rather than accept the DAs plea offer. Also I’m not sure why the defendant took the stand if he had to lie - wouldn’t the defense have anticipated that the prosecution might try to bring up the evidence from the car to challenge his credibility?

Jack’s cross of Seeley in Progeny was excellent. Progeny was a good episode, I liked Claire’s anger at the situation and her passion about it while Jack stayed focused on proving their case, and I liked Adam’s lines as well.

On 4/10/2023 at 12:45 AM, andromeda331 said:

Which made his getting convicted all the more better. Enjoy prison Mr. I'm smarter and better then you. I really hate that guy.

Yeah Bud was despicable - a murderer and a con man. He apparently never realized the reason he wasn’t well liked was because he was a smug asshole with a gigantic chip on his shoulder. It was kind of funny to me how the defense tried to get the case dismissed because the detectives zeroed in on Bud, it was like the defense wanted to punish the detectives for being right about the case, and then the defense attorney admitted he never expected the motion to go anywhere he was just preparing for trial. I liked Jack telling Bud he was disgusted with him and that he was glad the case was going to verdict.

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1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah the arrest in the car in Guardian was interesting and I could see a judge going either way on that, but I thought the detectives should’ve gathered more evidence so they could’ve gotten a proper search warrant rather than resorting to a stunt that wound up backfiring. I also thought the defense might have a good appeal seeing that Jack brought up the evidence found in the car when cross examining the defendant, so I wondered if the defense would’ve been smarter to let him be found guilty and then appeal rather than accept the DAs plea offer. Also I’m not sure why the defendant took the stand if he had to lie - wouldn’t the defense have anticipated that the prosecution might try to bring up the evidence from the car to challenge his credibility?

 Yeah, that would be something they could appeal on. I don't know why the defense lawyer let him testify either. He knew he was going to lie. He pretty much had too. They really didn't think the prosecution would pouce on that? All they had to do was prove he was lying. He sunk himself.

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Jack’s cross of Seeley in Progeny was excellent. Progeny was a good episode, I liked Claire’s anger at the situation and her passion about it while Jack stayed focused on proving their case, and I liked Adam’s lines as well.

I love that cross. It was so good. I liked that they showed Claire's anger. The last case involving abortion was back with Stone, Robinette and Adam. It was good to have a woman's point of view. Adam was great as always. He had so many good lines.

 

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Yeah Bud was despicable - a murderer and a con man. He apparently never realized the reason he wasn’t well liked was because he was a smug asshole with a gigantic chip on his shoulder. It was kind of funny to me how the defense tried to get the case dismissed because the detectives zeroed in on Bud, it was like the defense wanted to punish the detectives for being right about the case, and then the defense attorney admitted he never expected the motion to go anywhere he was just preparing for trial. I liked Jack telling Bud he was disgusted with him and that he was glad the case was going to verdict.

Yeah, Bud's one of my least favorites because he's such a smug asshole. It still amazes me that he is and considers himself better then everyone around him when he couldn't even do his job right. Then murdered his boss when he found out. He was nothing more then a common criminal. I don't know what his lawyer was thinking. The detectives zero in on him because learned enough to consider him a suspect. The more they digged the more they found they were right. That's an odd defense to go with.  

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5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I don't know what his lawyer was thinking. The detectives zero in on him because learned enough to consider him a suspect. The more they digged the more they found they were right. That's an odd defense to go with.  

I imagine it's like real life with a lawyer that has an apparently obvious guilty client: They still must defend their client vigorously, so...try any objection and hope something sticks.

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23 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

 Yeah, that would be something they could appeal on. I don't know why the defense lawyer let him testify either. He knew he was going to lie. He pretty much had too. They really didn't think the prosecution would pouce on that? All they had to do was prove he was lying. He sunk himself.

I love that cross. It was so good. I liked that they showed Claire's anger. The last case involving abortion was back with Stone, Robinette and Adam. It was good to have a woman's point of view. Adam was great as always. He had so many good lines.

 

Yeah, Bud's one of my least favorites because he's such a smug asshole. It still amazes me that he is and considers himself better then everyone around him when he couldn't even do his job right. Then murdered his boss when he found out. He was nothing more then a common criminal. I don't know what his lawyer was thinking. The detectives zero in on him because learned enough to consider him a suspect. The more they digged the more they found they were right. That's an odd defense to go with.  

Yeah I was unsure why the defense lawyer let the guy testify in Guardian, he would’ve been better not letting the defendant testify and just attacking the prosecutions case. I guess he didn’t anticipate the judge allowing the prosecution to use the forensic evidence to impeach his client’s credibility. It’s a good episode though, and I particularly like how the detectives tracked down where the victim was and who she had been with.

It was nice having a woman’s point of view in Progeny and I like the episode pretty good, specifically the legal stuff with Jack, Claire and Adam.

Bud is a very memorable villain due to his arrogance and smugness, and also for the fact that the actor went on to play Carver on CI. I understood why the defense lawyer was doing what he did, Bud was clearly guilty and so he had to be creative with a defense, I just thought it was kind of funny that he wanted the case dismissed because the detectives got the right guy. And yeah Bud still thought he was so much better than everyone else even though he had to resort to fraud to get good results at his job and then killed his boss when he found out. 

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Virtue was just on, this is a great episode, interesting case with how the drunk driving crash led to the rape case, and I love Jack’s closing argument in the trial of the scumbag councilman - very effective closing that laid out the case well, Talbert was creepy scum, it was very satisfying to see him convicted, and I hope his conviction was upheld, it was a clever idea by Jack to prosecute him for larceny by extortion when they couldn’t charge him with rape. The detective stuff with Lennie and Mike was good as well. It’s a really well done episode IMO, a bit different from L&O’s normal stuff as they weren’t prosecuting a murder, but a strong case and it was one of the first times we saw Jack give a closing argument, it was a great episode for him. 

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14 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Virtue was just on, this is a great episode, interesting case with how the drunk driving crash led to the rape case, and I love Jack’s closing argument in the trial of the scumbag councilman - very effective closing that laid out the case well, Talbert was creepy scum, it was very satisfying to see him convicted, and I hope his conviction was upheld, it was a clever idea by Jack to prosecute him for larceny by extortion when they couldn’t charge him with rape. The detective stuff with Lennie and Mike was good as well. It’s a really well done episode IMO, a bit different from L&O’s normal stuff as they weren’t prosecuting a murder, but a strong case and it was one of the first times we saw Jack give a closing argument, it was a great episode for him. 

I thought it was a well done case at the time. While that definitely went on at the time. It's still very timely in the Metoo world with Weinstein and other assholes using their power over employees and potential employees to get sex. The whole "couch casting" and crap. I'm really happy that McCoy insisted on prosecuting him and the jury convicted. I can see it over turned later or he'd probably get a short sentence and/or out early. But it's still great that it was done. I love how she described all the work she was able to because she slept with him.

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12 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I thought it was a well done case at the time. While that definitely went on at the time. It's still very timely in the Metoo world with Weinstein and other assholes using their power over employees and potential employees to get sex. The whole "couch casting" and crap. I'm really happy that McCoy insisted on prosecuting him and the jury convicted. I can see it over turned later or he'd probably get a short sentence and/or out early. But it's still great that it was done. I love how she described all the work she was able to because she slept with him.

Yeah there are still unfortunately far too many sexual predators in powerful positions. Talbert was a creep and it was very satisfying to see him convicted. This episode was almost a precursor to SVU and how SVU dealt with similar issues and situations later on. Virtue was a really well done episode and McCoy really shined in it, it was one of his earliest episodes and his closing was excellent. 

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7 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yeah there are still unfortunately far too many sexual predators in powerful positions. Talbert was a creep and it was very satisfying to see him convicted. This episode was almost a precursor to SVU and how SVU dealt with similar issues and situations later on. Virtue was a really well done episode and McCoy really shined in it, it was one of his earliest episodes and his closing was excellent. 

I agree. It was one of his best closing. 

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2 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree. It was one of his best closing. 

They did a good job with Jack out of the gate in making him a strong character but a very different type of prosecutor than Ben was - Jack was more visibly passionate and more willing to take risks whereas Stone was extremely serious and stoic and business-like. As I’ve said before I really like Jack’s first appearance in Second Opinion, they did a good job of introducing him and he had good chemistry with Claire and Adam right off the bat, I liked how they didn’t bring him in from an outside office but he was another prosecutor in the office, we just hadn’t seen his cases yet. If anything they may have gone a bit overboard in trying to make Jack take risks at the start - such as how he didn’t turn over the statement at first in Competence and tried to make sterilization a part of the plea bargain in the next episode, but Virtue was a terrific episode for Jack that really showed what a great lawyer he is, and showed how he got creative with a legal way to hold Talbert accountable and gave a great closing, he would go on to give many great closings over the years but that was one of his very best and most effective. While they introduced Jack pretty well, I think Virtue may be the episode where he really established himself as a great character.

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6 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

They did a good job with Jack out of the gate in making him a strong character but a very different type of prosecutor than Ben was - Jack was more visibly passionate and more willing to take risks whereas Stone was extremely serious and stoic and business-like. As I’ve said before I really like Jack’s first appearance in Second Opinion, they did a good job of introducing him and he had good chemistry with Claire and Adam right off the bat, I liked how they didn’t bring him in from an outside office but he was another prosecutor in the office, we just hadn’t seen his cases yet. If anything they may have gone a bit overboard in trying to make Jack take risks at the start - such as how he didn’t turn over the statement at first in Competence and tried to make sterilization a part of the plea bargain in the next episode, but Virtue was a terrific episode for Jack that really showed what a great lawyer he is, and showed how he got creative with a legal way to hold Talbert accountable and gave a great closing, he would go on to give many great closings over the years but that was one of his very best and most effective. While they introduced Jack pretty well, I think Virtue may be the episode where he really established himself as a great character.

Yes, they did a really great job creating the character of Jack McCoy. I love that he was so different from Ben. So many shows try to replace one character with another that is so similar and I hate it. It just doesn't work. Sam Waterston had really big shoes to fill Michael Moriarty did such a great job as Ben Stone it was hard to imagine anyone could come in after him and be great. But Sam really was. Jack believed in the law and justice as much as Ben but he was more passionate and louder about it. I like that he took risks on cases. Or take on cases like Virtue where you don't know if he'll stay in jail. It was risk. One of my favorites that he would always taking on people trying to use religion to excuse their crimes. As a Christian that annoys me to no end. Or when he's talking to the mother who murdered her baby on the stand who claimed that's what God wanted. He did a really good job breaking through that defense.

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1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Yes, they did a really great job creating the character of Jack McCoy. I love that he was so different from Ben. So many shows try to replace one character with another that is so similar and I hate it. It just doesn't work. Sam Waterston had really big shoes to fill Michael Moriarty did such a great job as Ben Stone it was hard to imagine anyone could come in after him and be great. But Sam really was. Jack believed in the law and justice as much as Ben but he was more passionate and louder about it. I like that he took risks on cases. Or take on cases like Virtue where you don't know if he'll stay in jail. It was risk. One of my favorites that he would always taking on people trying to use religion to excuse their crimes. As a Christian that annoys me to no end. Or when he's talking to the mother who murdered her baby on the stand who claimed that's what God wanted. He did a really good job breaking through that defense.

Yeah they did a great job with Jack - Ben was a great character as well and so his replacement had huge shoes to fill, but Jack is equally great if not better. I like how Jack isn’t afraid to take on powerful people who abuse their authority, and how that, along with vigilantism and hate crimes, are the main things that outrage him. Virtue is a strong episode for Jack as it showed how he wasn’t afraid to take on powerful people, and his closing argument was excellent. It was interesting in Virtue how Adam seemed more hesitant about prosecuting Talbert, but he backed Jack and Claire throughout, Adam was a great character as well. I also like the scene where Van Buren was in Adam’s office with Jack and Claire in Virtue, it was always nice when she would share a scene with the DA. Virtue is one of my favorites from Season 5 - 5 had a few more different types of episodes than the usual homicide investigation and legal proceedings, but most of them worked well. 

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Purple Heart was just on - this is probably my favorite season 5 episode - fantastic, intricate plot that was compelling from start to finish. It was a brilliant move by Jack to tell the defense attorney he was changing his strategy in order to get him to put Denise on the stand where Jack could then introduce the rebuttal witness to destroy her credibility. It’s a really great case, with a good, I depth investigation where Lennie and Mike linked to the 2 murders and got to the bottom of it and then the legal stuff was strong as well. Adam’s line about how they were going to lose 2 cases for the price of 1 was funny, and his facial expression when Jack said he was going to have to convince the defense to call Denise was great. It was interesting how they remembered that the victim had been robbed and realized it was an attempted hit. The defense attorney would’ve been smarter to have just rested his case and took his chances with letting the prosecution argue Denise killed the hitman for revenge, but he thought he could clinch an acquittal by calling her to the stand. Like I said, it was a very creative move by Jack to salvage the case. It’s a terrific episode, I haven’t seen it discussed much but it’s my favorite from season 5 and a classic episode IMO.

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On 8/30/2023 at 11:58 AM, Xeliou66 said:

Purple Heart was just on - this is probably my favorite season 5 episode - fantastic, intricate plot that was compelling from start to finish. It was a brilliant move by Jack to tell the defense attorney he was changing his strategy in order to get him to put Denise on the stand where Jack could then introduce the rebuttal witness to destroy her credibility. It’s a really great case, with a good, I depth investigation where Lennie and Mike linked to the 2 murders and got to the bottom of it and then the legal stuff was strong as well. Adam’s line about how they were going to lose 2 cases for the price of 1 was funny, and his facial expression when Jack said he was going to have to convince the defense to call Denise was great. It was interesting how they remembered that the victim had been robbed and realized it was an attempted hit. The defense attorney would’ve been smarter to have just rested his case and took his chances with letting the prosecution argue Denise killed the hitman for revenge, but he thought he could clinch an acquittal by calling her to the stand. Like I said, it was a very creative move by Jack to salvage the case. It’s a terrific episode, I haven’t seen it discussed much but it’s my favorite from season 5 and a classic episode IMO.

Yeah, it's a great episode. But Denise did have dumb lawyer. You never put the defendent on the stand if you don't have too. He really didn't. The gun belonging to her boss and not her would have made it an acquittal. They couldn't prove she had the gun and no one saw her take it. Nope, he puts her on the stand and Denise walks right into the trap. Daniel was a crappy husband blowing through her money but Denise wasn't much better. She had him killed and killed the hitman and still thinks she's the victim. 

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8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, it's a great episode. But Denise did have dumb lawyer. You never put the defendent on the stand if you don't have too. He really didn't. The gun belonging to her boss and not her would have made it an acquittal. They couldn't prove she had the gun and no one saw her take it. Nope, he puts her on the stand and Denise walks right into the trap. Daniel was a crappy husband blowing through her money but Denise wasn't much better. She had him killed and killed the hitman and still thinks she's the victim. 

It’s a really great plot, very intricate. I wonder what would’ve happened if the defense attorney hadn’t put Denise on the stand, I think an acquittal would’ve been likely. But the defense attorney thought he could clinch an acquittal by putting Denise on the stand, like I say, it was very clever on Jack’s part to tell him he was changing strategies. Denise was very cold blooded.

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13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

It’s a really great plot, very intricate. I wonder what would’ve happened if the defense attorney hadn’t put Denise on the stand, I think an acquittal would’ve been likely. But the defense attorney thought he could clinch an acquittal by putting Denise on the stand, like I say, it was very clever on Jack’s part to tell him he was changing strategies. Denise was very cold blooded.

I think she would have too. For me it comes down to the gun. They can't prove that she took it. I like when then things look bad seeing them figure out a way to nail the murderer. Convincing the lawyer to put his client on the stand was really good. He really should have wondered why he was being told that he was changing strageties. Why do that when he could just do it in court? He really should have wondered what Jack was up too. Especially since he's known to be a good lawyer and pull off a conviction in the end. I guess he was too overconfident.

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Just now, andromeda331 said:

I think she would have too. For me it comes down to the gun. They can't prove that she took it. I like when then things look bad seeing them figure out a way to nail the murderer. Convincing the lawyer to put his client on the stand was really good. He really should have wondered why he was being told that he was changing strageties. Why do that when he could just do it in court? He really should have wondered what Jack was up too. Especially since he's known to be a good lawyer and pull off a conviction in the end. I guess he was too overconfident.

Yeah I agree that the defense attorney should’ve just rested his case and not put Denise on the stand. The evidence definitely pointed to Denise but the jury would’ve had a hard time convicting her given they couldn’t consider her role in her husband’s murder or any evidence related to it. It would’ve been better for the defense lawyer to roll the dice with the jury instead of putting Denise on the stand - had he known about Denise’s prior attempt to kill her husband I’m sure he wouldn’t have. It was a really great plot, both investigation and trial - I really liked how Lennie and Mike got to the bottom of the case and then it had good trial scenes. 

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I FREAKIN’ LOVE William Kuntzler! I loved the tidbits of what he did in real life (Chicago Seven) as part of Adam’s earlier career when they worked together! ”White Rabbit”is so, so good. And I don’t believe Susan felt ashamed of ANYTHING. The look on her face when Margaret testified at the end? PUH-LEAZE.

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On 11/1/2023 at 6:58 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I FREAKIN’ LOVE William Kuntzler! I loved the tidbits of what he did in real life (Chicago Seven) as part of Adam’s earlier career when they worked together! ”White Rabbit”is so, so good. And I don’t believe Susan felt ashamed of ANYTHING. The look on her face when Margaret testified at the end? PUH-LEAZE.

 I agree. Susan never felt ashame for anything. 

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I love the episode Virtue, I saw it yesterday on BBC America - I think it’s the episode that Jack really came into his own as lead prosecutor and showed what a great lawyer he is - he was a strong character from the start but in the previous couple of episodes they tried a bit too hard to make him more of a risk taker and different from Ben - in this episode Jack really shined - it was very clever of him to charge Talbert with larceny when they couldn’t make the rape case stick, even though he did rape one woman, tried to rape another, and coerced Sarah having sex with him by threatening to destroy her career - he was pond scum. Jack’s closing where he talked about how Talbert abused his power was great, and I hope Talbert’s conviction was upheld, he was guilty of the larceny charge and I loved how Jack figured that out. 
The detective part was really good as well and it was interesting how what started as a car crash investigation led to a rape investigation after the autopsy. Lennie and Mike were awesome as usual in getting to the truth. 
Adam had some good lines as always. 
It’s a great episode. 

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Season 5 is on today 

Guardian is a good episode, Kamen was such an arrogant greedy callous prick, he let the girl die and didn’t even feel sorry. I liked Jack playing hardball with him at the end, he was clearly disgusted. I thought it was a big mistake for the defense attorney to put Kamen on the stand, it allowed Jack to impeach his credibility. I did wonder if the defense might’ve won on appeal since the trial judge allowed the prosecution to introduce evidence originally tossed out. The investigation was good, although I thought it was a big mistake by the police to wait and arrest Kamen while he was in his car, they should’ve known a judge would likely toss it, Adam was right to tell Van Buren it was a lousy search.

Progeny is a stellar episode as well - Jack’s cross of Seeley is a thing of beauty, he totally demolished him. There were some great lines in this episode, I love ME Rodgers shutting down Garnett’s questioning in court, and I liked both the investigation and the legal stuff, Adam had a couple of good lines as well. I applaud the victim’s husband for keeping his cool and not jumping out of witness box and beating the crap out of Seeley when Seeley was questioning him.

Rage is on now - Bud Greer is one of L&O’s more memorable murderers, he was exceptionally smug. Excellent investigative and legal stuff in this one. It’s funny to me how the defense wanted the judge to dismiss the case because the police zeroed in on Bud as their suspect, basically they wanted to punish them for arresting the right suspect, glad the judge tossed that ridiculous motion. I liked Jack expressing his disgust for Bud at the end, calling him a fraud and a killer hiding behind his race.
 

I love Lennie and Mike as a detective pairing, their investigations are always enjoyable to watch. Season 5 has a great cast lineup and many great epsidoes.

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Pride was just on on Sundance, and I have mixed feelings about Logan’s exit - I really wish the final scene had been with Logan and Briscoe and Van Buren, instead of Jack and Claire talking about what would happen to Logan. It felt rushed, I didn’t mind that they had Logan exit by punching the councilman, Logan had always been fiery and rather hot headed, but Logan should’ve gotten a final scene. Anyway I’m glad they brought Logan back on CI years later and had him regain his detective badge, and I liked how on CI they mentioned Van Buren tried to get him back to her squad and that he still thought about Lennie a lot (I’ll just ignore the awful Exiled movie in between Logan’s Mothership run and his CI run, that movie was a fucking disgrace).      
The plot itself was decent but I thought the case against the councilman was shaky, not really surprising the jury deadlocked, but the DAs did the right thing by bringing the case, it was pretty certain Crossley did it but the evidence was circumstantial. It was satisfying seeing Logan punch out Crossley, even if it cost Logan his job. It’s a decent episode I just wish Logan had gotten a final scene. 

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14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Anyway I’m glad they brought Logan back on CI years later and had him regain his detective badge,

He didn't lose his badge; he was just sent to Staten Island, which was considered a demotion, but he was still a detective.

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

even if it cost Logan his job

Again, Logan wasn't fired.

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On 4/19/2024 at 6:37 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

He didn't lose his badge; he was just sent to Staten Island, which was considered a demotion, but he was still a detective.

Again, Logan wasn't fired.

Which from every show set in New York Staten Island apparently sucks. Including Logan.

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13 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Which from every show set in New York Staten Island apparently sucks. Including Logan.

Yes. He and others considered it a demotion, because it wasn't in the city proper-Manhattan. Personally, I thought it was ridiculous that Mike was sent there for 10 YEARS for popping a local councilman. And that all of a sudden, he was THE cop, oh, yeah, along with Goren, that PP1 had been trying for YEARS to get rid of, but couldn't. Such BULLSHIT.

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18 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes. He and others considered it a demotion, because it wasn't in the city proper-Manhattan. Personally, I thought it was ridiculous that Mike was sent there for 10 YEARS for popping a local councilman. And that all of a sudden, he was THE cop, oh, yeah, along with Goren, that PP1 had been trying for YEARS to get rid of, but couldn't. Such BULLSHIT.

So do I. That was way too long.  

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31 minutes ago, Harry24 said:

Did Noth want to leave to do other projects?

I think he wanted more money and Wolf fired him. But then hired him again for Criminal Intent. 
 

Also the movie that never happened-Noth co-wrote. So they must have made up by then.

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2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I think he wanted more money and Wolf fired him. But then hired him again for Criminal Intent. 
 

Also the movie that never happened-Noth co-wrote. So they must have made up by then.

A shame he’s such a horrible person.  He’s a fantastic actor, and Mike was such a great character.

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