S03.E17: Guest Starring John Noble

[BaggythePanther]

For me Ray’s “Run Barry, run!” and Sara advising Obama to hold onto his birth certificate made his appearance worth it, even if it screws with continuity.

[Nogoodnamesleft]

Little Grood in a jar along with the passing mention of little sabre tooth tiger awsome leave it Ray to collect large scary animals like other people collect butterflies 

My favorite part might have when Sara told Mick to kill Dhark after everyone else like lets' lock him up instead Mick is just like boss the respect he has for Sara the leader is one of the best things on the show 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Nogoodnamesleft
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[CloudySky]

It's interesting that there was a bit of a power struggle between Mick and Snart and that Mick resented Snart when he tried bossing him around...but he's now at this place where he so readily follows Sara's lead.

[Miss Dee]

In the beginning, Snart always presented like he was holding himself aloof from Mick. Like he appreciated Mick's skills but ultimately he would screw Mick over to get what he needed, if he had to. This seemed to be backed up by the behaviour of "LoD" Snart, who was earlier than the one who boarded LoT. Which made Mick seem like the more loyal one, for all his faults.

Of course we ended up seeing his true colours for Mick as he stayed on the Waverider, but Mick no doubt at the beginning had a sense he was being used by Snart to some degree and resented it. Whereas Sara has always been as straight with him as she's been with the others.

[Sakura12]

I love that Mick calls Sara, boss.  He doesn't always want to be a team player, but he does listen to her when it counts. Plus she was going to let him roast Darkh. She doesn't always try to stop him from being a killer. I think that's a reason he's willing to follow her, she's not a perfect hero, she's done bad things like he has.  

[Starfish35]

On 4/4/2018 at 12:26 PM, BaggythePanther said:

I’m honestly a fan of the theory that the Ava we saw in the earlier episodes was Ava #11. Somewhere along the way Rip had to replace her and this Ava eventually softened, then fell in love with Sara. It would be a way to show that the clones aren’t exactly alike because the previous Ava was a hard ass who hated everything about the Legends while “our” Ava is willing to loosen up and has fallen for the captain of the Legends.

I'd really like to buy into this theory - it would explain a lot - but unless Rip is downloading memories somehow from one Ava to another, I think this is the same Ava as in episode 301.  301 IIRC was the episode that Rip and Ava had their conversation about a scalpel and a chainsaw (the Legends being the chainsaw) that he refers back to in this episode.

[Sakura12]

I think Rip did download the memories into each clone that way they would know everything the other one did. Otherwise the rest of the time bureau would wonder why she didn't remember anything that happened to her. 

[Starfish35]

That's....

So if Avas #1 - #12 all have the same memories/experiences, aren't they really all the same person, just in different bodies?  I mean, what really differentiates them?

(my head hurts)

[Sakura12]

She's a clone they are the same person made multiple times.  When one died, he had to have way that everyone would think she's the same one. He even said he liked having the perfect agent that's replaceable. I suppose number 12 is different because she broke through Rip's programming by following the Legends and falling in love with Sara. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

Well, the clone bodies are all the same, but presumably each clone has her own life experience/designated job.  So in that way they're different, because they have different experiences/memories.  But in Ava's case, it sounds like it was just one set of programming/personality/memories being carried across multiple bodies.  I guess kind of like the Flesh doppelgängers in that Doctor Who episode.  Only in this case there wasn't a human base imprint to start with.

[Maverick]

 Rip has access to technology that backs up personality and memory (that's how hid from and was taken over by the Legion) so presumably that's what he's doing with Ava.  Her change in attitude towards Sara could be explained as either her programming continuing to evolve or that there was a glitch during one of the transfers which made her more emotional.  I don't think it was made clear if there's a real person the Avas are cloned from or if she was genetically engineered and then cloned but I do think it's interesting the 'perfect protector' is a blond woman who's an exceptionally skilled martial artist and has difficulty forming relationships.  I've started to suspect Ava may have more of a connection to Sara than just meeting her through the Time Bureau.

[Starfish35]

2 minutes ago, Maverick said:

Rip has access to technology that backs up personality and memory (that's how hid from and was taken over by the Legion) so presumably that's what he's doing with Ava. 

That's true - I hadn't put that piece together with all of this.  

But that just reinforces my feeling that Avas 1-12 are all one Ava - one personality being transferred into multiple bodies.  And that personality may be continuing to grow and evolve, as you say, but I'm not sure they're actually different people.  

[scarynikki12]

She's a Cylon.  I'm telling you that every new Ava woke up in a pool of goo like the BSG models.  The real question is how Rip managed to get each one to forget about the goo.

[CloudySky]

6 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

That's true - I hadn't put that piece together with all of this.  

But that just reinforces my feeling that Avas 1-12 are all one Ava - one personality being transferred into multiple bodies.  And that personality may be continuing to grow and evolve, as you say, but I'm not sure they're actually different people.  

It depends on how many of her experiences Rip keeps/adds/changes from one lifetime to the next. He presumably tinkers a bit to erase her deaths and the events leading up to that. Does he change her backstory? Did her fake parents actually mess up that birthday party story or is that one of the things Rip altered from one lifetime to the next?

I think this Ava may be a different one from the first one we met and that Rip altered her personality slightly to make her more willing to work with the Legends because they were back in play and the threat of Mallus was growing. That slight change allowed for her personality to grow into what it is now. If Ava 11 would never have fallen for Sara without the change that Rip made to Ava 12...then are they the same person?

[lurker22]

Yeah, I would think Rip tweaks Ava's personality from one version to the next, learning from what caused the previous Avas to die, so that the new Ava lasts longer. And 'think Rip has a protocol where when one Ava dies, another one automatically gets activated.

[afterbite]

The theory of Ava being downloaded to the next with residual memories from the previous Ava(s) makes sense, because it seems as if she's been in the Time Bureau for a while. Unless everyone else is also a clone or is in on the Ava clone plan, she'd have to have some continuity or else everyone would wonder why they kept around that one chick who forgot everyone's names every 6 months. I think this is the same Ava clone that originally met the Legends, though. I mean, it'd definitely be an interesting new wrinkle to the relationship if Ava 11 was offed halfway through her interactions with the Legends and Ava 12 stepped in and developed a crush, but I also think the Avas each have to learn along the way. If they stuck with their programming and never evolved, they'd be robots. This Ava just happened to evolve rather quickly once Captain Lance made her start to feel funny things in the pants area. :)

[MarkHB]

On 4/5/2018 at 10:58 PM, scarynikki12 said:

She's a Cylon.  I'm telling you that every new Ava woke up in a pool of goo like the BSG models.  The real question is how Rip managed to get each one to forget about the goo.

He hypnotizes them with an oscillating red light that goes "woo-woooo, woo-woooo".

[starri]

I know it goes against continuity from the Vixen CW Seed show, but I half-expected Esi to say "Dad!" when she saw Nate.  I just don't want Amaya to leave, and it would be awesome if Zari could find a loophole for that.

[jhlipton]

On 4/3/2018 at 2:51 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

why was Mick using his gun instead of his totem?  Yes, he has more experience with the gun but it still didn't make sense to give him the new firepower only to have him use the old.

That's Mick -- that's what he does.