Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[TrueMyth]

3 hours ago, wonderwall said:

When people say Arrow can improve by stopping all the romantic drama... And while that's somewhat true, fixing the romantic drama won't fix everything...

[SNIP]

• To be fair the show has no say on whether they have be the springboard for another spin-off

But they do have some control over how they springboards spin-offs, right?  I though The Flash set up in season 2 was very well done.  It helps that GG was well-cast in the roll, but I really enjoyed his two episode arc on Arrow.  The few mentions through the rest of the season were fine with me.  We learned enough about who he was and why he did things, and he helped move Arrow's plot along without making it about him.

Where they stumbled with Ray was making him a series regular.  He could have shown up for a small arc to introduce him, maybe buying back QC and even hiring Felicity, but I always assumed that he had his own company before that (to make the watch), so he could be absent but mentioned.  In fact, end with him getting the plans from Applied Sciences with that ominous close-up... then bring him back for a SHORT arc at the end of the season where the team has to figure out who the hell is flying around in this combat suit.  Even the viewers don't fully know if it's a good guy or a bad guy.  When they make peace, Felicity helps him with some suit tech and Oliver helps point out the OBVIOUS COMBAT DYSFUNCTIONS of his suit.  He briefly shows up again, like Barry to help with the climactic arc, and there he is, ready for spin-off, mysterious enough to be fleshed out on his own show, but with a shiny suit.

As much as I love Echo and enjoy Curtis, he's been a bit wasted this season, too.  I want him to have a non-hero centered plot, please.  It would have been fun to have PT trying to rebuild and renew Star City and butting up against Darhk and his expansion plans.

[wonderwall]

7 minutes ago, TrueMyth said:

But they do have some control over how they springboards spin-offs, right?  I though The Flash set up in season 2 was very well done.  It helps that GG was well-cast in the roll, but I really enjoyed his two episode arc on Arrow.  The few mentions through the rest of the season were fine with me.  We learned enough about who he was and why he did things, and he helped move Arrow's plot along without making it about him.

Where they stumbled with Ray was making him a series regular.  He could have shown up for a small arc to introduce him, maybe buying back QC and even hiring Felicity, but I always assumed that he had his own company before that (to make the watch), so he could be absent but mentioned.  In fact, end with him getting the plans from Applied Sciences with that ominous close-up... then bring him back for a SHORT arc at the end of the season where the team has to figure out who the hell is flying around in this combat suit.  Even the viewers don't fully know if it's a good guy or a bad guy.  When they make peace, Felicity helps him with some suit tech and Oliver helps point out the OBVIOUS COMBAT DYSFUNCTIONS of his suit.  He briefly shows up again, like Barry to help with the climactic arc, and there he is, ready for spin-off, mysterious enough to be fleshed out on his own show, but with a shiny suit.

As much as I love Echo and enjoy Curtis, he's been a bit wasted this season, too.  I want him to have a non-hero centered plot, please.  It would have been fun to have PT trying to rebuild and renew Star City and butting up against Darhk and his expansion plans.

True...

 Ray Palmer. I have no clue whether the show signed BR on knowing he's going to be in 18 episodes of the season OR if the network signed BR on for 18 episodes and the writers had to think of ways to make him relevant. I feel like it's the latter...

With bringing back Sara this season, the writers put themselves into a jam when they killed Sara off, thus making it more difficult to bring her back. That's why Laurel's story was a mess this season. However the writers did a better job bringing back Ray this season. 

And I completely disagree with the bolded part. Most of what Curtis has done this season HAS been non-hero centric. Him saving Palmer Tech with his technology, him helping Felicity learn to walk again... There have only been teases with the T-Spheres, nothing more, and Curtis was only in the Arrow cave once this season. I think the show is doing a better job with Curtis this season than it did with Ray last season. So again, that's a huge improvement on the show's part. 

All I ask is for the show NOT to be a springboard for anymore spinoffs knowing that the writers are most likely going to screw it up. If it doesn't have to, then that's  an improvement on the overall show  in itself.

[TrueMyth]

You're right, of course, that Curtis has not been directly involved with the hero game for most of the season.  What I meant to say is that, as he was a full time cast member, I would have liked him and Felicity to have a bit MORE of a plot with PT.  Even when they brought back EBR in season 1A they made sure that not all of her scenes were with Oliver.  She got to dig into the Undertaking from a totally civilian direction with Walter.  As it is, Curtis was often reduced to walking in, handing Felicity cool tech, and walking out.  I wish we hadn't waited until "A Beacon of Hope" for Felicity to realize that she could help people with PT as well.  I feel the seeds for that realization where planted early on, when she knew was faced with firing so many people.  It be cool to see her using the company to "work in the light" just like Oliver was trying to do with the Mayor job.  Maybe we are moving there for next season.

I think we are saying similar things.  Don't bring in new people (especially new masks or mask-destined characters) as a regular.  Ideally, full stop after that.  If they ARE strong-armed by the network, then do something interesting with that character that doesn't reduce or drag down the characters we are already attached to.

Curtis's time has been so much better than Ray's was, but I still feel they did Barry's the best.

[Angel12d]

Ways to improve for s5?

• Better stunts/fights with more focus on Oliver again 
• Keep O/F together (or keep them as friends but stop the break-ups/make-ups. I can deal with one season of this but now that we've done it already, that it would just be repetitive and boring if it happens again.)
• Expand the relationships. Have more Felicity/Thea, Diggle/Felicity, Diggle/Thea, Donna/Oliver, Quentin/whoever. Open up the interactions. Even just a scene here and there would be enough.
• Build a better villain and one that doesn't want to destroy the city this time.
• Either stop the flashbacks or decrease them to when necessary.
• Go back to basics, make it grounded again. No magic for a while.
• Show the team outside of Team Arrow. I want to see them have dinner at Big Belly Burger, or where they work in the daytime. How do they make a living?
• Don't waste 8 episodes setting up another spin-off.
• Stop bringing back characters from the dead.
• Wouldn't mind bringing back the Villian of the Week sometimes.
• Stop writing for plot instead of character. 

[thegirlsleuth]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Ways to improve for s5?

• Better stunts/fights with more focus on Oliver again 
• Keep O/F together (or keep them as friends but stop the break-ups/make-ups. I can deal with one season of this but now that we've done it already, that it would just be repetitive and boring if it happens again.)
• Expand the relationships. Have more Felicity/Thea, Diggle/Felicity, Diggle/Thea, Donna/Oliver, Quentin/whoever. Open up the interactions. Even just a scene here and there would be enough.
• Build a better villain and one that doesn't want to destroy the city this time.
• Either stop the flashbacks or decrease them to when necessary.
• Go back to basics, make it grounded again. No magic for a while.
• Show the team outside of Team Arrow. I want to see them have dinner at Big Belly Burger, or where they work in the daytime. How do they make a living?
• Don't waste 8 episodes setting up another spin-off.
• Stop bringing back characters from the dead.
• Wouldn't mind bringing back the Villian of the Week sometimes.
• Stop writing for plot instead of character. 

This is my wishlist, too.  I'd add 1) no guest heroes outside of the crossover event, only guest villains and 2) end the practice of characters keeping secrets from those they profess to love/trust. I'd also like them to stop making Oliver stupid for plot purposes-Guggenheim and Kreisberg have admitted they do this to drive the story--but I know this is too much to ask.

[nksarmi]

21 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Ways to improve for s5?

• Better stunts/fights with more focus on Oliver again 
• Keep O/F together (or keep them as friends but stop the break-ups/make-ups. I can deal with one season of this but now that we've done it already, that it would just be repetitive and boring if it happens again.)
• Expand the relationships. Have more Felicity/Thea, Diggle/Felicity, Diggle/Thea, Donna/Oliver, Quentin/whoever. Open up the interactions. Even just a scene here and there would be enough.
• Build a better villain and one that doesn't want to destroy the city this time.
• Either stop the flashbacks or decrease them to when necessary.
• Go back to basics, make it grounded again. No magic for a while.
• Show the team outside of Team Arrow. I want to see them have dinner at Big Belly Burger, or where they work in the daytime. How do they make a living?
• Don't waste 8 episodes setting up another spin-off.
• Stop bringing back characters from the dead.
• Wouldn't mind bringing back the Villian of the Week sometimes.
• Stop writing for plot instead of character. 

THIS! I give Slade a pass because he kind of didn't want to destroy the city exactly - he just wanted to destroy Oliver Queen and what happened with the mirukuru soldiers was collateral damage.

But Malcolm, Ra's, and now Darkh - come on - give me something besides it's May and it's time to prove that anyone still living in Star City must be stupid or somehow completely unable to move.

It's season five - just something different please.

[TrueMyth]

I'm trying to brainstorm a good season climax that doesn't center on the destruction of the city.  I think the writers think they are being different this season since Darhk actually wants to destroy THE WORLD, but chose Star City as the star point because the crumbling social infrastructure allowed him leeway and apparently it is on a hell-mouth. The thing is, destroying the city wasn't actually the end goal for any of the villains.  It was means to the end that supposedly makes for good TV because... explosions?

Here's an interesting article on Good Supervillain Motivations.  Using this, we've had revenge/"better" society (Merlyn), revenge (Slade), and ??? (Ra's).  Okay, so Ra's was looking for an heir, but I really have no understanding of why he had to go destroy Starling after Oliver refused him.  I think a nice return to the greed motivation of early season one.  Maybe with a villain who is a foil to old Ollie, what Oliver could have been?  Someone working to change the city in a way Oliver disapproves of?

Bring back Cater Bowen! ;)

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, TrueMyth said:

You're right, of course, that Curtis has not been directly involved with the hero game for most of the season.  What I meant to say is that, as he was a full time cast member, I would have liked him and Felicity to have a bit MORE of a plot with PT.  Even when they brought back EBR in season 1A they made sure that not all of her scenes were with Oliver.  She got to dig into the Undertaking from a totally civilian direction with Walter.  As it is, Curtis was often reduced to walking in, handing Felicity cool tech, and walking out.  I wish we hadn't waited until "A Beacon of Hope" for Felicity to realize that she could help people with PT as well.  I feel the seeds for that realization where planted early on, when she knew was faced with firing so many people.  It be cool to see her using the company to "work in the light" just like Oliver was trying to do with the Mayor job.  Maybe we are moving there for next season.

I think we are saying similar things.  Don't bring in new people (especially new masks or mask-destined characters) as a regular.  Ideally, full stop after that.  If they ARE strong-armed by the network, then do something interesting with that character that doesn't reduce or drag down the characters we are already attached to.

Curtis's time has been so much better than Ray's was, but I still feel they did Barry's the best.

I get what you're saying... I think it's a fools errand to want more plot with PT. Even Oliver's time in QC wasn't that great. And to be fair, if the writers were to spend more time at PT I'd rather seeFelicity doing her job than see Curtis... I think what could help on this front though is if the Arrow writers somehow made Felicity hire Diggle to be head of security and Thea as the PR person. Then I can see why the show would spend more time at PT.

I honestly do hope that this "James" person is a baddie and not another mask. I really don't want anymore regulars on the show. Unless said regular was Lyla. 

I worry about Curtis being a regular next season. I hope that he has minimal screentime and isn't treated like how Ray was treated in S3.

[way2interested]

Just now, TrueMyth said:

I'm trying to brainstorm a good season climax that doesn't center on the destruction of the city.  I think the writers think they are being different this season since Darhk actually wants to destroy THE WORLD, but chose Star City as the star point because the crumbling social infrastructure allowed him leeway and apparently it is on a hell-mouth. The thing is, destroying the city wasn't actually the end goal for any of the villains.  It was means to the end that supposedly makes for good TV because... explosions?

Here's an interesting article on Good Supervillain Motivations.  Using this, we've had revenge/"better" society (Merlyn), revenge (Slade), and ??? (Ra's).  Okay, so Ra's was looking for an heir, but I really have no understanding of why he had to go destroy Starling after Oliver refused him.  I think a nice return to the greed motivation of early season one.  Maybe with a villain who is a foil to old Ollie, what Oliver could have been?  Someone working to change the city in a way Oliver disapproves of?

Bring back Cater Bowen! ;)

I think that part of the reason that Star City is the focal point is because it has a nexus for Darhk's powers, meaning that once they destroy the city Darhk/HIVE can still control what's left of the country/city through his powers and the pills. I'd argue that for Malcolm and Darhk at least that destroying the city is more of a means to an end for their goals rather than just for good tv over the reasoning with Slade and Ra's (who each had motivation for destroying the city only because Oliver cared about it and the fact that Ra's wanted to kill Darhk who happened to be there). 

That being said, I agree with your idea about the next villain. Maybe this James guy could be it by being the anti-Oliver in a way of someone who takes justice into his own hands in a way that s4-s5 Oliver wouldn't do, both as the Green Arrow and as Oliver Queen, potential mayor. Kind of like an extreme foil that Ray never quite reached. I would wonder how else they could differentiate him other than having James be a lone killer while Oliver is a hopeful defender with a team.

[wonderwall]

As much as I say I don't want the next big baddie to be a magical dude... I honestly really don't care.

All I want is for the casting to be spot on. I need the actor to be amazing and into the role. Because this show requires actors to elevate the material given to them. 

This show relies on a strong villain. And the acting is about 60-70% of what makes a strong villain in Arrow, IMO. So I hope David Rapapport doesn't screw this up.

[calliope1975]

Wrong show. Ooops.

Edited May 9, 2016 by calliope1975

[quarks]

6 hours ago, kismet said:

 

I also wish they had a neutral party that was not a writer look over the plan and the major plot points to give them an outside perspective. I feel like perhaps some of the problems that crop up are because the writers room is too closed an environment. Sometimes a project needs a fresh and outsider perspective that is not in the writers room either trying to write their own episode or run other elements of the show. And then they should listen better to critiques or ideas to improve when people do bring up issues with the storylines.

 

Jumping in here to note that Arrow does have neutral parties who aren't writers looking over the plan and scripts on a regular basis. The scripts currently go through the CW, WB, at least four people at DC, and some of the corporate sponsors.  In theory, CBS also has script approval, though it's not clear if CBS is actually exercising this, and several affiliate stations have also said that they get preapproval and veto rights.  

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, quarks said:

Jumping in here to note that Arrow does have neutral parties who aren't writers looking over the plan and scripts on a regular basis. The scripts currently go through the CW, WB, at least four people at DC, and some of the corporate sponsors.  In theory, CBS also has script approval, though it's not clear if CBS is actually exercising this, and several affiliate stations have also said that they get preapproval and veto rights.  

Wait, the affliates have say so on scripts? Is this just for DC properties?

[quarks]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, the affliates have say so on scripts? Is this just for DC properties?

It's for every CW show. 

[catrox14]

Oh wow. That's wild. So are these big market affiliates or what?

[kismet]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Jumping in here to note that Arrow does have neutral parties who aren't writers looking over the plan and scripts on a regular basis. The scripts currently go through the CW, WB, at least four people at DC, and some of the corporate sponsors.  In theory, CBS also has script approval, though it's not clear if CBS is actually exercising this, and several affiliate stations have also said that they get preapproval and veto rights.  

Thanks, maybe they just need to get better people or maybe earlier in the process. There were a lot of SL that could have been better (major ones s3- Ras & MM, s4- SCI & BMD). By the time it reaches the people you talk about they all have their agendas which is not necessarily good storytelling.

[kismet]

4 hours ago, TrueMyth said:

I'm trying to brainstorm a good season climax that doesn't center on the destruction of the city.  I think the writers think they are being different this season since Darhk actually wants to destroy THE WORLD, but chose Star City as the star point because the crumbling social infrastructure allowed him leeway and apparently it is on a hell-mouth. The thing is, destroying the city wasn't actually the end goal for any of the villains.  It was means to the end that supposedly makes for good TV because... explosions?

Here's an interesting article on Good Supervillain Motivations.  Using this, we've had revenge/"better" society (Merlyn), revenge (Slade), and ??? (Ra's).  Okay, so Ra's was looking for an heir, but I really have no understanding of why he had to go destroy Starling after Oliver refused him.  I think a nice return to the greed motivation of early season one.  Maybe with a villain who is a foil to old Ollie, what Oliver could have been?  Someone working to change the city in a way Oliver disapproves of?

Bring back Cater Bowen! ;)

Haven't had a chance to read the article. But I have been brainstorming some ways for a good season climax (no particular order)

1. I know people do not want it on this board, but taking down a human trafficking ring associated to Bratva could be very climatic & emotionally rewarding season finale... but I understands people's desires to not have that on Arrow. It's an idea, but it could get very dicey with this batch of writers. I'm not sure I would trust them to have the sensitivity to handle the subject material and it could make the show very dark.
2. I honestly think that somehow taking down an Arm of the Bratva in SC is a way to have good climax that does not need to be about a villain destroying the city. It does not have to be trafficking, a major drug ring could be all that is needed. It actually might work to combine the past & the present because I could see Waller or some Argus head having OQ infiltrate Bratva Bad guys in the past and that is how he earns his Capitan status. However, that bad branch springs up again (as all organized crime does) and starts to make a profit base in SC. After all the May destructions, it wouldn't be that far fetch of any idea that SC may develop a drug & crime problem.
3. I also think DD & HIVE option would have been to just kept it at corn & not mass destruction w/ Genesis. So I could see them having a Villain want to control SC for some nefarious purpose that does not include its destruction or annihilation. In fact, the Bad Guy/Organization needs SC to thrive because it provides some necessary resource. Perhaps the nexus also has some unknown natural resource. I imagine a cross between Waller & Blood running the group.
4. I really like the Undertaking, I wonder if they could find a way to make something like that work without the earthquake machines. Nefarious & corrupt business associates/government officials are always fun to play with. I really wish they hadn't used Isabel & Blood in s2, because them trying to take down OQ & PT I think could have fueled a whole season. The only motivation besides revenge I imagine would be greed and profit, but they could find people that fit all 3 of those bills. Maybe the remaining members of the RQ's list get together as carpetbaggers to take advantage of SC during the rebuilding.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Oh wow. That's wild. So are these big market affiliates or what?

Yep.

[dtissagirl]

55 minutes ago, kismet said:

Thanks, maybe they just need to get better people or maybe earlier in the process. There were a lot of SL that could have been better (major ones s3- Ras & MM, s4- SCI & BMD). By the time it reaches the people you talk about they all have their agendas which is not necessarily good storytelling.

From what Berlanti said in that panel he did with Peter Roth a few months ago, Roth himself keeps a super close look on all of the WB shows, and he is one of the people pitching and giving notes all season long. So they get the seal of approval from the president of everything WBTV, it's not like they can go "please find someone else to give us notes".

[bijoux]

37 minutes ago, kismet said:

Haven't had a chance to read the article. But I have been brainstorming some ways for a good season climax (no particular order)

1. I know people do not want it on this board, but taking down a human trafficking ring associated to Bratva could be very climatic & emotionally rewarding season finale... but I understands people's desires to not have that on Arrow. It's an idea, but it could get very dicey with this batch of writers. I'm not sure I would trust them to have the sensitivity to handle the subject material and it could make the show very dark.
2. I honestly think that somehow taking down an Arm of the Bratva in SC is a way to have good climax that does not need to be about a villain destroying the city. It does not have to be trafficking, a major drug ring could be all that is needed. It actually might work to combine the past & the present because I could see Waller or some Argus head having OQ infiltrate Bratva Bad guys in the past and that is how he earns his Capitan status. However, that bad branch springs up again (as all organized crime does) and starts to make a profit base in SC. After all the May destructions, it wouldn't be that far fetch of any idea that SC may develop a drug & crime problem.
3. I also think DD & HIVE option would have been to just kept it at corn & not mass destruction w/ Genesis. So I could see them having a Villain want to control SC for some nefarious purpose that does not include its destruction or annihilation. In fact, the Bad Guy/Organization needs SC to thrive because it provides some necessary resource. Perhaps the nexus also has some unknown natural resource. I imagine a cross between Waller & Blood running the group.
4. I really like the Undertaking, I wonder if they could find a way to make something like that work without the earthquake machines. Nefarious & corrupt business associates/government officials are always fun to play with. I really wish they hadn't used Isabel & Blood in s2, because them trying to take down OQ & PT I think could have fueled a whole season. The only motivation besides revenge I imagine would be greed and profit, but they could find people that fit all 3 of those bills. Maybe the remaining members of the RQ's list get together as carpetbaggers to take advantage of SC during the rebuilding.

I'm really down with greed as the motivator as it was for the shitheads from the list Oliver took down in the first season. I'd also like the list to make a return in the present day. Not in the same capacity as in S1, but let's say a VoTW crops up and their name sounds familiar. Turns out they are on the list so the team decides to check in on what others from it are doing.

As for the big climax, how about organ black market or a drug epidemic? 

[Thundercatmary]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

I know people do not want it on this board, but taking down a human trafficking ring associated to Bratva could be very climatic & emotionally rewarding season finale... but I understands people's desires to not have that on Arrow. It's an idea, but it could get very dicey with this batch of writers. I'm not sure I would trust them to have the sensitivity to handle the subject material and it could make the show very dark.

I remember a short fic in this area and it was pretty nail biting, the premise is after Felicity tracks down a human trafficker he tracks down and kidnaps Felicity and they team has to find her on their own. I forget the name but it's pretty well know, she had been wearing her com so they could communicate etc but she was injured so it was kinda a race against time.

I think something like that could be interesting although obviously not the same.  

[kismet]

Oooh black market organs that could be interesting...

I think the destruction of SC has been well covered for a little while.

[bijoux]

45 minutes ago, Thundercatmary said:

I remember a short fic in this area and it was pretty nail biting, the premise is after Felicity tracks down a human trafficker he tracks down and kidnaps Felicity and they team has to find her on their own. I forget the name but it's pretty well know, she had been wearing her com so they could communicate etc but she was injured so it was kinda a race against time.

I think something like that could be interesting although obviously not the same.  

And Then It Ends, Your Little Winning Streak by Macha. I forgot it was human traffickers.

[Thundercatmary]

Yep that's it. I really like when stories give them a win (like catching the    trafficker) but also a loss (Felicity kidnapped), like showing consequences of what they do. 

Also weekly reminder that I want to see Felicity learn some basic self defense, or at least get her a gun.  

[nksarmi]

I think the problem is that these shows love to follow the Buffy model of every season the city is in peril, but the thing about Buffy - as I recall - the city didn't always know it was in peril. I mean sometimes the team stopped the Big Bad in a very low key way.

I would like Arrow to assume that of that plausible deniability. Maybe it's too late. Maybe the genie is just uncorked and there is nothing we can about it. But the city has had the destruction of the Glades, mirkuru soldiers, Ra's attempting to use a biological weapon on it (although that one was slightly less disastrous as the previous two since it didn't get set off and I don't think anyone died), and now nukes? I mean shit. Maybe at the end of the season the government will just quarantine Star City because whatever the hell is going on there doesn't need to spread?

I'd like to see Oliver and team trying to rebuild Star City next season and whatever bad things happens - they manage to find a way to keep it out of the public eye.

As for villain motivation - I personally would love a villain hell bent on achieving the Justice Oliver didn't bring to the city over the Glades. I'd like to see a vigilante show up that is basically a badass but using means far worse than Oliver used in season one. I'd love it if this vigilante got ahold of the Hood's little book and was just killing the people Oliver left alive in season one. In the end, we find out that it's someone who survived the Glades and wants Malcolm Merlyn dead and will kill anyone who stands in the way of bringing Malcolm to justice.

To me that would be utterly perfect. It would call Oliver out on his BS when it comes to Malcolm. It would achieve what Arrow has never done and give us a villain we can almost root for. And it would distinguish Oliver's vigilante work from someone who WILL take it too far. But since it's really all about killing Malcolm - it doesn't have to be about destroying the city.

Although if the producers have to have their "destroy the city" moment - the villain can just plan to do to the rich part of town what the rich did to the Glades.

[AyChihuahua]

They really should have just had the viral attack not be known. Like the virus was Silent but Deadly, no symptoms for 30 minutes or something, and then the person drops dead...so the Cane Toad's nanobots take care of it before anyone even knows. They didn't really need, e.g., the cops' help, as the cops didn't even do anything except shoot Oliver. So have RAG, who was a RAPING VILLAIN, not get a FRIGGING PRAYER, and instead have RAG grab Oliver and take them both over the cliff as his dying move, but Felicity saves Oliver. Tiny changes would have made SC citizens look less stupid for staying.

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, nksarmi said:

Maybe at the end of the season the government will just quarantine Star City because whatever the hell is going on there doesn't need to spread?

Waller would have done that and then some two seasons ago if Dig and Lyla hadn't held her at gun point.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Don't have the entire team go out into the field at once like they did earlier in the season

Thank goodness they seem to have improved this already.  When I think of how silly they looked and how many times we had to see that I can hardly believe it really happened. 

 

23 hours ago, Thundercatmary said:

I remember a short fic in this area and it was pretty nail biting, the premise is after Felicity tracks down a human trafficker he tracks down and kidnaps Felicity and they team has to find her on their own. I forget the name but it's pretty well know, she had been wearing her com so they could communicate etc but she was injured so it was kinda a race against time.

I think something like that could be interesting although obviously not the same.  

I think these show runners in general want to stay away from sex related violence and I support them since if they did a human trafficking arc I would live the entire year in terror over who was getting raped.  

[tv echo]

Putting aside the ridiculousness of how losing the CEO position means losing the company in the Arrowverse...

Now that Felicity no longer has access to Palmer Tech's money and resources, what is Team Arrow going to do for finances? 

I'm assuming that Felicity's been paid a CEO salary for the past year, so that should be a nice nest egg.

Maybe Mr. Dennis is actually a Darhk/Ruve minion and dies in the season finale? In which case, Felicity could get her job and the company back.

Alternatively, Noah probably has millions of dollars stocked away in offshore or hidden accounts.  Before he skips town (he is still a fugitive from the law), maybe he could leave behind a trust fund for Felicity.

Edited May 12, 2016 by tv echo

[kismet]

I don't want a secret trust fund for Felicity. If they need instant cash, I just say they find some old Queen/Dearden funds. Taking money from PapaSmoak would make them beholden to him in some way. And I want them free from any influences. Also them getting money from him would be like s3 when MM left all his money to TQ, too repetitive - plus more importantly I don't want them to start PapaSmoak down a trail of being pretzeled into the show with no real purpose. I want him recurring and visiting from time to time, but not a weekly or monthly presence.

I wouldn't mind if FS had made wise decisions and saved herself a little nest egg. I do think they are building to her having her own company or at least a Queen/TA company. I don't want her absentee father to all the sudden come into save the day and give her money that takes away from her accomplishments.

[AyChihuahua]

Since the business/law stuff on this show is BATSHIT CRAZY, just make it so that she still owns Palmer Tech and is therefore still rich, she just got voted out as CEO. I mean, that makes absolutely zero fucking sense, bc if she owned it she could just dismiss the board and appoint new members who were loyal, but what the hell ever...it's already batshit, at least make it batshit in a way that works going forward.

[BkWurm1]

I remember being certain at the end of season two that in season three after Oliver lost all his money that the team was going to have to play Robin Hood to support their activities.  They'd already showed that Felicity could hack and steal anyone's money, it would have been a nice continuation of the List if they targeted fat cats and shook them down, sending some of the money to charities around Starling and the rest going to fund Team Arrow.  Part of me wouldn't be opposed to something like that still happening to fund the team but it gets sticky if any of them used such funds to further personal ventures. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by BkWurm1

[TimetravellingBW]

Hi, new poster here :) 

I hope Felicity gets to keep her CEO and Palmer Tech/hopefully Smoak Industries role. I feel like the show needs more interesting "civilian world" storylines, rather than it being all Mask plot. Imo one of the biggest weaknesses of Season 3 - though there were a ton - was that it was all The Arrow brooding in the lair and on the streets, and nothing about Oliver Queen's life. (Or anyone else's apart from when Felicity took a break to hang out on The Ray Palmer Show).

Season 4 has been better, but most of the action has still been in the lair, and hasn't had the complexity of interesting stories outside of the team. It's just been watching four masks suit up and punch things. Compare that to Season 2 which had a really great balance of civilian storylines with Oliver, Felicity and Diggle all having secret identities to balance, the Thea/Roy/Sin team up which was really fun and Moira being her great self. Or Season 1 which had interesting plots with Oliver rebuilding relationships with his family, Moira and Tommy's plots, even Thea's development - all on the civilian side of things. Just steer clear of soap opera bleurgh like the yearly Lance Family Drama and secret son debacle. It is possible to have interesting non-mask storylines. It just has to be decent drama, not melodrama - a distinction the writers seem to struggle with :/ 

In S5 would be awesome to see Felicity and Oliver power coupling it up as CEO and Mayor of Starling and rebuilding the city in the light - the show had attempted that already this season. Give Thea and Diggle civilian identities/jobs in Palmer Tech or the mayor's office. Bring back fancy galas they have to sneak out of and undercover missions in the day rather than endless dark warehouses and Felicity having to deal with corporate meetings while Oliver is scaling the building outside. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

In S5 would be awesome to see Felicity and Oliver power coupling it up as CEO and Mayor of Starling and rebuilding the city in the light - the show had attempted that already this season. Give Thea and Diggle civilian identities/jobs in Palmer Tech or the mayor's office. Bring back fancy galas they have to sneak out of and undercover missions in the day rather than endless dark warehouses and Felicity having to deal with corporate meetings while Oliver is scaling the building outside. 

I really enjoyed the constant parade of black tie events.  Everyone always looked so pretty.  Don't want to give the up so yeah, I need a continued string of excuses to make them get prettied up.  Power couple works for me.  

If Oliver doesn't end up becoming the Mayor or gets out of it because he has too many other duties, I wonder if they could possibly put Quentin in that role?  Right now they seem to be tying his hands when it comes to being a police officer (though that might not last) but if they played up the popularity of BC (just go with it) then he could be an interesting candidate.   

[Morrigan2575]

per EBR she didn't lose the company just voted out as CEO.

I'm now wondering if there's going to be a S3 redo where this new charismatic James guy is the new CEO of PT.  

[BkWurm1]

Well then he better be evil from the start cause I'm not up for doing a love triangle at all. 

[Carrie Ann]

Responding in the spoilers thread because I think those might be spoilers?

[BkWurm1]

I thought casting notices were not considered spoilers?

[Carrie Ann]

If so--sorry! Maybe we need like a quick tipsheet at the top of this thread or that one.

[BkWurm1]

No kidding.  I'm so confused. 

[Morrigan2575]

i believe casting info is considered a spoiler 

[TimetravellingBW]

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I really enjoyed the constant parade of black tie events.  Everyone always looked so pretty.  Don't want to give the up so yeah, I need a continued string of excuses to make them get prettied up.  Power couple works for me.  

If Oliver doesn't end up becoming the Mayor or gets out of it because he has too many other duties, I wonder if they could possibly put Quentin in that role?  Right now they seem to be tying his hands when it comes to being a police officer (though that might not last) but if they played up the popularity of BC (just go with it) then he could be an interesting candidate.   

Putting Quentin in the role of fighting on the public front and connection to Star(ling) government would be good, though I'm not sure he needs to be mayor. They could just focus on his position and responsibilities in the police force, which means he could be around for both black tie events and action scenes. It would be a good way to tie him to the main plot without crowding the lair more. It was disappointing he lost his S2 role of team liaison when Laurel found out Oliver's secret, police force connects more naturally than ADA. 

[kismet]

I know that people really want OQ to be the mayor. I feel very bored with the plot and don't anticipate that changing. I do live the idea of O/F power couple. But honestly, I think my fav scenes of OQ post-CEO have been when he is domesticated. I love seeing him cook and keep house. Perhaps we get some good cooking tips. I really would love for him to become the babysitter for Baby Sara. That way Dig can go work with Felicity and kick some corporate ass, bonus we get Delicity scenes. SA can get his onscreen "Daddy"-time and change diapers, with no need for a new kid. Honestly though if I really got me wish it would be for him to get that lifestyle TV show, a modern man's Oprah. He could be a celebrity portion of the Power couple.

[Chaser]

I got the impression from this Con that DR and SA are in favor of or pushing a return of a lot of S1/S2 elements. The OTA dynamic, Stunts and even the basic storytelling (keeping it grounded).

I hope that happens in S5.

[kismet]

I've been catching up on s4 of The Americans and they are really clearing house, I wonder what their s5 will be like.

But back to Arrow, in one of the recent episodes they introduced a new character "Russian Man" played by Ilia Volok, whom has been in quite a few of film & TV roles. I immediately recognized him and thought he would be a wonderful addition to ARROW, especially if they plan on introducing the Bratva element to the show again this season. Looking at his resume, it seems like the Arrow could afford him and perhaps maybe not even break the bank.

I could see him as formidable foe for TA. He also has an authentic Russian/Slavic accent. And can play a menacing yet businesslike bad guy which is what I think Arrow needs after the over the top DD and the screen-eating antics of MM.

[wonderwall]

I don't require much to enjoy Arrow. I don't require Arrow to be groundbreaking in any way. In fact, I think that S4 has set up for a solid S5... 

Things Arrow has going for them for S5:

• Getting back to being grounded
• Olicity flirty flirt scenes we missed in S3 and seeing them get together again
• How the team gets back together will be interesting
• IF THEY GIVE THIS A CHANCE - FElicity dealing with everything she's been through this season
• More Noah which WM said in an interview before and he was well received so I don't see why he won't come back
• Oliver as mayor has potential. We need to see Oliver more outside of being the Arrow
• Felicity probably building her own company? We have to get Queen Inc. somehow
• More OTA interactions/ and DR has become very VERY vocal about Delicity
• No spin-offs and only a couple of crossovers? 
• We don't have to deal with the kid anymore (hallelujah)
• Thea having an actual arc and not being connected to Malcolm because she's 100000x over him
• Oliver being hopeful/ a more realized hero/less messed up
• More Lyla (which I hope we'll get considering she's rather popular)
• Russia Flashbacks have a chance of being interesting. Hopefully they bring back Anatoly (he's not dead right?)
• No more Laurel
• Seems like Arrow writers not inviting Donna back yet is a good sign. I don't need too much of her

Things that can mess up S5:

• The Flash and its stupid cliffhanger
• Arrow writers love contrived drama
• Malcolm is still alive
• Flashacks
• The pacing of the season
• Boring villain

[kismet]

I really am hopeful for s5, perhaps its the Russia/Bratva. Perhaps its SA/DR comments about being grounded. Perhaps its where we left Olicity. Perhaps its the relief that s4 is finally done with only one major crisis of faith from me with the show in the Middle Act. And the writing sucked, but at least the acting was decent all season. On the good side, my crisis of faith once again aligned with a lot of what the critics said, so hopefully the writers take note. They seemed to listen well to the s3 critiques and made some good adjustments. So fingers crossed for s5.

I feel like I am still riding a lot of optimism for s5. I don't look fwd to OQ, the Mayor but I guess it was bound to happen (cuz comics). It just was such a snoozefest in s4. I love TQ/OQ chemistry when they are in the lair or home, but somehow in a professional capacity they are so boring. I hope they don't saddle TQ with being his chief of staff, she would be so much better served as a role in FS's new endeavor. I hope they make QL the deputy mayor, because he has the gravitas & chemistry with OQ to make those municipal scenes not boring.

At least FS is free of PT, well except their profits from her shares. I really hope they keep her independent of PT and working on her own vision of a company. I don't even mind if Curtis tags along. I don't really like him, but he's funny and perhaps he's like Roy where he'll grow on me. I never thought I would like Roy, and now I wish they'd bring him back at least as a recurring star.

Dig & TQ I think will find peace and both deserve it after the past few years. I honestly don't even need TQ back as a full-time vigilante. I wonder if they will find her some hybrid role. Dig I think will fit right in as part of OQ security detail. My fear though is that they will have something bad happen to him overseas and that he will return to SC damaged (cuz drama).

I'm pretty tolerant of most of the Villians Arrow gives me. For most of his run, I actually didn't mind Ras. DD got to be repetitive in his actions, but NM killed every scene. I just wish the writers had done more with his actual plot. I wish the stunts were better, the Ghosts were not effective or unique after the first 3 episodes. But Andy was a nice twist, predictable but nice all the same. And I've yet to meet a Russian or Slavic Villain that I have not enjoyed. I hope they cast him or her well. And I hope Arrow Writer get some good inspiration from old Cold War movies, as well as some of the amazing spy/action based TV programs that utilize Russian/Slavic culture. There is so much potential with this storyline, it's almost hard to at least getting a passing score. I want better, but I'll take what I can get.

Flashbacks, I ask for one thing. Please incorporate some actual Russian/Slavic language. There are two scenes I remember fondly of Poppy when she died & when she spoke her character's native tongue. Arrow has been building to this location from the Pilot, please do not let us down. If you need help, please consider hiring someone from "The Americans", they can make the most mundane & routine office talk sizzle with anticipation & tension. Consult outside of the Flarrowverse, there is so much potential with the Flashbacks, I'm actually concerned my expectations need to be dropped.

Malcolm, well let's just say I don't think he's ever going to leave us until at least s6/7 - but I'm encouraged that they chopped off his hand and used him as hired help in the finale. I personally hope he goes on a long journey of self-discovery for immortality or something. I really want him to disappear for long bouts of time. He has now watched 2 (3 if you count VS) contemporaries die at the hands of OQ & TA. Clearly emotional manipulation is losing its power, perhaps he needs to regroup. I actually wonder if there is someway to put him in the flashbacks, so that we can get JB onscreen for contractual purposes but not have to explain why he is hanging around SC with no real purpose.

[Chaser]

Pro for S5: It's Arrow.

Con for S5: It's still Arrow. 

[Lady Calypso]

What excites me the most about the season 5 flashbacks is not only do we learn about Bratva Oliver, but they HAVE to speed up Oliver going from reluctant vigilante to 'I will kill anyone and I will get all the people on my dad's list' vigilante. We might see Oliver being reluctant at first, but we're actually probably going to see him kill more people and become more closed off as season 5 goes on. Would it have been much better if they had taken their time with Oliver getting to the man he was in season 1? Of course. But they didn't do that, so we're stuck with 22-24 episodes next season of Bratva Oliver becoming that man, which means it could be ridiculous but also very fun to see. 

[BkWurm1]

I wasn't sure where to put this.  I was trying to think about where the show is going to go but that kind of sent me back to look at what went wrong with the season and sure, there are little things here and there, ultimately, the very biggest mistake IMO was the Baby Mama Drama. 

Lying to Felicity is where the season fell apart which technically first happened in 4-8 but I can't help think if MG had saved one of his gotcha moments he could have fixed the tone and trajectory of the whole season.  Nobody really wanted the kid storyline but if we were going to get it, we should have actually really had it as part of the season.  Basically, the season could have gone on like it happened up until 4-14 but instead of Thea confronting Oliver and Oliver confiding in Thea about William, he could instead deny it all and then cue him going home to the loft and TWIST, Felicity asks if he managed to throw Thea off the scent and he says he thinks so and broods about how close he came being monumentally stupid by not confiding in her (Felicity) and he doesn’t know how he’d cope without her support. She says that’s what partners are for.

Then instead of a quick resolution with William, they could have upped the stakes by stretching that over a couple episodes. (They postpone the wedding of course.  There’s really no reason to rush to get them married anyway.)

They could have had Samantha freak out when she discovered that William wasn’t such a secret (even though Malcolm figuring it out would have been through no fault of Oliver’s or Felicity’s) and Oliver could have finally pointed out that if he hadn’t been so afraid of what she’d do if she knew someone knew about William he could have put safeguards in to protect him. She could even seem to have calmed down until they find William and then basically tell Oliver he needed to stay away from William because his life was too dangerous.

 It wouldn’t be about Oliver having not kept his promise because him telling Felicity wasn’t the problem. The problem would be that while he was doing important things, William needed to have a normal childhood blah, blah, blah, you can’t be there all the time blah, blah blah. And how about this, Oliver reacts with his gut and objects and she seems to agree to think about it more only to sneak off and disappear.  Trauma!  (maybe have Felicity accidently tell her exactly how to disappear earlier.)

Oliver could have had his crisis of faith and hope not about the breakup (which naturally doesn’t happen this time of course) but because he lost his son not to mention that he failed to protect Felicity from being injured and still didn’t know how to stop DD.  Perhaps he's not even sure if he should still look for William. Then right when he decided to, Laurel is killed. So he drops any search for William. Felicity’s faith in him could still be enough to repel DD initially but of course Darhk’s ready to store everyone underground. 

Just to twist the knife, DD has Samantha and William safe underground. (Cause of course DD can find them and why wouldn't he still go after such an effective target)   Heck, let Thea hang with William. Let Samantha lean on her. Malcolm controls her through threats to William thus skipping being drugged.  Also, how about if Oliver is called and taunted about both Thea and William and DD uses them as insurance for the bunker not being attacked. 

Having to deal with saving the world, Oliver would have to temporarily leave them there creating angst and conflict over hard choices and GUILT when he finds out that Anharky was down there as well.  Let Thea's time in the dome be Thea’s story.  Let her fight her own battle. Alex can still die but put Samantha’s life at stake as well.  Let her be injured enough to scare us all that we’ll be stuck with the spawn and Oliver and Diggle only  show up at the end to help Thea finish off her plan (and get Samantha to a hospital where she’s going to be just fine.)  Maybe Thea could have even flipped a family underground into leaving with her and she could be the one to express to Oliver how easy of targets they were without hope.  (Also please could the people underground NOT agree to nuke the rest of the world.  I'd be fine if they just thought it was happening out of some political meltdown rather than DD making it happen.)

  Diggle’s stuff would all still happen.  Felicity hacking with Noah would all still happen. (Though tone down the jokey tone in 4-22) Oliver needing the faith of the city behind him would still happen.  But how about instead of spending the whole time in 4-22 trying to free Thea, he and Diggle are dealing with rioting citizens who have heard a rumor about nukes targeting them like Havenrock.  Then he gives the speech in episode 4-22 quelling a riot.  He can even bring up Curtis’s story about the GA giving him hope along with kudos to the ordinary people that everyday try to make the city a better place. Blah, blah. ( Cue Oliver and Diggle running off last minute to help Thea get to the surface so they can still end on the big collapse and also have a reason why Felicity is unguarded.)  Let some actual citizens help the survivor’s of the dome thus getting Samantha to the hospital to get her and the spawn out of the way, leaving Oliver and Co time to get back to save Felicity. 

Everyone could have their moments of hopelessness again and Felicity could send her mom away along with Oliver sending William and Samantha.  Quentin doesn’t leave (cause it’s his city too and Laurel blah, blah, blah) and Donna is capable of getting her charges to safety all on her own. 

Felicity can still be dealing with the Nukes and Oliver goes to confront DD  and then when the city shows up to support the GA it would be tied back to Oliver Queen’s speech from earlier. 

Thea could still go to evaluate her life as well as Diggle go off to get his head right.  Oliver has his mayor stuff. Quentin would still leave with Donna.  And this time Oliver would agree to send Samantha and Spawn away.  Cue his goodbye message to be watched when Spawn is 18.  That could be the voice over while we see everyone leaving.  Then end with Oliver and Felicity in the lair like we saw only with them holding hands as the team within the team emerges now as the only team. 

Damn, now I’m extra annoyed.  In hindsight it’s all so easy.  I wish that the showrunners could write the whole season and then tweak it all before ever filming anything. So I guess that's my pie in the sky wish for season 5.  That's never going to happen but I hope that they plot it out better and leave more time for emotional beats and other character's points of view.