Hopes and Fears: How Will We Survive This Island? (Speculation WITHOUT Spoilers)

[Guest]

My annoyance that Thea was used as some bizarre conduit for the writers has literally zero to do with Felicity. Why does everything always come down to that?

I'm annoyed because it went against three seasons of characterization and missed the chance for character growth on Thea's part simply because they wanted to hammer home to the audience that we're supposed to feel sympathetic to Oliver's problem.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Guest

[Chasity]

I'm not convinced that Felicity will get to voice a POV in this whole drama. My reason for thinking this is because the writer's never seemed to realise that Felicity never got to express her opinions about anything or feelings about Oliver until late in season 3.

For that matter, they didn't even realise her whole story was more about propping up Ray, and anyone else who happened to walk through a scene she was in, than it was about her.

I'm really hoping that both Oliver and Felicity come out of this intact as characters and neither one gets dumped with the whole mess. I'm sort of hoping that it makes the ratings tumble a bit as well and I feel awful saying that because I really like this show and want it to do well.

She's definitely not going to get too much of a POV in this story because Oliver barely got one. It took six episodes before we heard Oliver's thoughts on the whole situation and it lasted 3 minutes and 27 seconds. 

[bijoux]

And it didn't explain his thought process at all.

[dtissagirl]

The past might be better but it still comes down to you wanting Thea to discuss what makes a good marriage. The past says Thea would be mad at Oliver for lying to her and some kind of point of view in relationship to Williams point of view.

 

Uh, nope. I needed Thea to be a competent campaign manager.

 

If she could find BM and kid so easily, it means anyone can. That's oppo research 101. She needed to read Oliver the riot act about that -- to make Oliver realize that doing nothing about William -- which is what he is doing by keeping him a secret -- is a mistake. I needed Thea to tell Oliver that they needed to read Dig and Lyla in immediately, and to ask them for a huge-ass favor: that they put ARGUS agents on BM and kid 24/7, considering DD and his wife are hellbent on destroying Oliver, and Malcolm is out there doing who knows what.  And then I needed Thea to call Alex, read him in on the situation, and then for the both of them to come up with about seven different press releases in how to deal with this problem once the media became aware of what was going on. And then I needed Thea to convince Oliver to talk to a lawyer, to find out what kind of liabilities the campaign and the Mayoral office would have to deal with if/when the truth comes out.

[Midnight Lullaby]

For the record I didn't mean to imply I wanted them to have a philosophical conversation about marriage. It's Oliver and Thea Queen we are talking about. But a "Ollie, lies destroyed our family, don't make the same mistake." Seems to me a more reasonable sentence given what happened to her and her past reactions than anything that came out of her mouth in that scene.

[tarotx]

Thea did need to tell Oliver to find another way. That was the point of my first post. The talk about her talking about what's right for a marriage. That isn't where Thea would come from. I

 

Thea shouldn't be Oliver's campaign manager in the first place since she's in her early 20's and has no college at all. And no history with politics. 

 

Uh, nope. I needed Thea to be a competent campaign manager.

 

If she could find BM and kid so easily, it means anyone can. That's oppo research 101. She needed to read Oliver the riot act about that -- to make Oliver realize that doing nothing about William -- which is what he is doing by keeping him a secret -- is a mistake. I needed Thea to tell Oliver that they needed to read Dig and Lyla in immediately, and to ask them for a huge-ass favor: that they put ARGUS agents on BM and kid 24/7, considering DD and his wife are hellbent on destroying Oliver, and Malcolm is out there doing who knows what.  And then I needed Thea to call Alex, read him in on the situation, and then for the both of them to come up with about seven different press releases in how to deal with this problem once the media became aware of what was going on. And then I needed Thea to convince Oliver to talk to a lawyer, to find out what kind of liabilities the campaign and the Mayoral office would have to deal with if/when the truth comes out.

[Carrie Ann]

When we learned from MG that one of the characters would be understanding of/make an argument for Oliver's decision to keep William a secret, I immediately thought it would have to be Dig (or less likely, Quentin or even Donna). The reason was that I thought if the writers were trying to make the audience understand Oliver's position, then that position would need to be articulated by someone who can speak from a place of authority. Dig fit the bill as both a father and husband, and even more as Oliver's de facto mentor and the moral center of the team/show (IMO).

 

Yes, I think anyone can have opinions and feelings about what is proper behavior as a parent or spouse, but it's not like Thea can say, "I would do anything it takes to be a part of Sara's life, even lie to Lyla." (In fact, Thea can't even say, "I wish my real father had been allowed to be a part of my life as soon as he knew because all children deserve to have all their parents around regardless of any circumstances!!!" because that is some crazy nonsense that the writers haven't quite parsed.)

 

Thea can't speak to Oliver's "side" with that kind of implicit authority, and frankly, there were times when she was judgmental of her loved ones for keeping things from her when it felt to me like she was being immature, because she'd never been put in those positions and had no idea how she would have reacted. (In fact, when she was put in a tough moral spot, she told lies and ran away.) So yeah, she said the words MG wanted us to hear, and yeah, they want us to believe this is a very difficult position Oliver is in, but Thea is not Dig, and I don't think those words carry the narrative weight they would have coming from someone with more relevant experience. So in a way, I'm relieved that they chose Thea for this dubious task, because it means I can hold out hope that they aren't really trying to sell that Oliver did the right thing, just a thing that's not quite as inherently stupidly wrong as many of us believe it to be regardless.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[tarotx]

Yes but that would come from her point of view about Lying to her and her not being able to be an aunt and her knowing where William might stand now and in the future. Oliver is trying to be a part of the boys life. Sam is where Moira was in keeping it a secret from William. If the show wanted to go at Thea's past and what she might be able to give advice with that is where it lies. Not marriage. 

For the record I didn't mean to imply I wanted them to have a philosophical conversation about marriage. It's Oliver and Thea Queen we are talking about. But a "Ollie, lies destroyed our family, don't make the same mistake." Seems to me a more reasonable sentence given what happened to her and her past reactions than anything that came out of her mouth in that scene.

[Password]

I don't want to speak for anyone else but I think in this instance the lie is being emphasised, not any discussion about marriage. It seems out of character for Thea to encourage Oliver to lie to Felicity (and anyone close for that matter) simply because the situation is hard. Her past suggests she prefers truth and not secrets so for her to keep the lie going is anti-Thea.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Password

[ComicFan777]

I would love to see someone point out to Samantha that she has become just like Moira, a woman she obviously didn't like.  Moira bribed Samantha with money for the sake of her son, ruining the Oliver-Samantha-William relationship.  Samantha emotionally blackmailed Oliver for the sake of her son, ruining Oliver-Felicity relationship.  In the end, Samantha ended up being just like the woman she wanted to run away from.

Edited February 21, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yes but that would come from her point of view about Lying to her and her not being able to be an aunt and her knowing where William might stand now and in the future. Oliver is trying to be a part of the boys life. Sam is where Moira was in keeping it a secret from William. If the show wanted to go at Thea's past and what she might be able to give advice with that is where it lies. Not marriage.

I'll say it one last time because it's the third time I'm repeating the same thing and it's pointless to go on and on about the same concept.

You don't have to be married to understand a marriage should be based on honesty. Thea saw what lies and betrayal did to her parents' marriage and suffered a lot for it. She was outraged by her mom's and dad's behavior and she said it. She was very hard on her mom because she believed she was unfaithful to her husband and later because she believed her lies made Walter walk out on them. So from this life experience and this reactions she had I believe she has an idea of what kind of marriage she would like for herself or her brother and it's not her mom's first or second one. Yet she suggested Oliver should lie and have a marriage exactly like their mom's, despite having raged about it during both S1 and 2.

And Thea isn't a kid. She is a young woman who has been in a serious relationship with Roy and she constantly demanded honesty from him because that's what she believes is important in a relationship. That's what she believes is right. She even told him about the future she envisioned for them when Roy was back this season so she has thought about getting married and having kids one day, it isn't a new concept for her. She doesn't know from a direct experience what a good marriage is like but I do believe she knows how it is supposed to be and it's not what she suggested to Oliver.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[tarotx]

You shouldn't repeat yourself. Please just ignore me if I come off irritating. I was just explaining my first post and then responding. I wouldn't have even responded if you originally said family instead of marriage. And I'll just leave on that note. I don't mean to fight with people about entertainment. 

 

You don't have to be married to understand a marriage should be based on honesty. Thea saw what lies and betrayal did to her parents' marriage and suffered a lot for it. She was outraged by her mom's and dad's behavior and she said it. She was very hard on her mom because she believed she was unfaithful to her husband and later because she believed her lies made Walter walk out on them. So from this life experience and this reactions she had I believe she has an idea of what kind of marriage she would like for herself or her brother and it's not her mom's first or second one. Yet she suggested Oliver should lie and have a marriage exactly like their mom's, despite having raged about it during both S1 and 2.

And Thea isn't a kid. She is a young woman who has been in a serious relationship with Roy and she constantly demanded honesty from him because that's what she believes is important in a relationship. That's what she believes is right. She even told him about the future she envisioned for them when Roy was back this season so she has thought about getting married and having kids one day, it isn't a new concept for her. She doesn't know from a direct experience what a good marriage is like but I do believe she knows how it is supposed to be and it's not what she suggested to Oliver.

[Primal Slayer]

I hope they have Laurel leave Star City at the end of the season and return in 5x01 with the reveal that she met Richard Dragon or Lady Shiva and trained with one of them.

[Whimsy]

The conversation about marriage (even as it relates to Thea, Ollie and the other characters) has veered off topic and is becoming argumentative.   Time to move on.

[kismet]

I've been thinking about the speculation that FS is a hallucination in the limo.... I know that WM ruled her out as a candidate for the grave. But part of me does sorta hope that FS is OQ's hallucination in the limo. Perhaps he's finally lost it and is just beginning to see FS everywhere. He already sees Dead People when he needs a Pep Talk, now he'll just see hallucinationFS to help him through the rough patches. It would be kinda ironic that he sees her everywhere and yet can't be with her because of his shortcomings. Although very convenient if he has somehow managed to internalize her Pep Talks so that he can just pull them up out of thin air whenever he needs a little direction in life.

[BkWurm1]

I've been thinking about the speculation that FS is a hallucination in the limo.... I know that WM ruled her out as a candidate for the grave. But part of me does sorta hope that FS is OQ's hallucination in the limo. Perhaps he's finally lost it and is just beginning to see FS everywhere. He already sees Dead People when he needs a Pep Talk, now he'll just see hallucinationFS to help him through the rough patches. It would be kinda ironic that he sees her everywhere and yet can't be with her because of his shortcomings. Although very convenient if he has somehow managed to internalize her Pep Talks so that he can just pull them up out of thin air whenever he needs a little direction in life.

Reminds me a bit too much of Zeus swallowing his wife so he'd always have her wit and wisdom with him. 

[kismet]

Reminds me a bit too much of Zeus swallowing his wife so he'd always have her wit and wisdom with him.

Don't give MG & WM any ideas. You never know when they'll start stealing from mythology instead of just the comics.

[looptab]

It has been mentioned before how the writers did some tweaks and adjustments to S2 to put in place the gotcha! of the finale. What were those things? I remember we discussed it but I can't remember the actual content of the conversation, haha.

[kismet]

After reading @CarrieAnn's fic suggested in the ClockTower, it got me thinking. I really hope the HIM is not MM. MM has done horrible things and deserves to have bad things happen to him. However, to have TA & OQ in particular set out on a mission to kill him, just feels like it goes against his no-kill rule and also his promise to Tommy. I don't mind if OQ has to kill people. But I do mind premeditated murder, and somehow a mission to kill MM would feel like that for me. When OQ killed Ras in the present & Slade in the past it was self-defense.

 

I know they have to find a way to remove MM off the board, but I would prefer if they found another way (or at least tried) rather than having OQ kill him on purpose. I feel like it would betray his promise to his friend. I also feel like it is asking OQ to give into the darkness, and that might set off a whole lot of other dark things. Now if he happens to kill MM, because it is self-defense or there is no other solution than I'm okay with that. People die in war and combat all the time, but it does not feel like we have gotten to that point with MM yet. And honestly, I would probably need another 1/2 or full season to feel like TA or MM have officially declared war on each other.

 

I need good justification as to why OQ has to be the one that kills MM and I do not believe the show has given me that. Even if MM is responsible for the death of a member of TA, it still does not seem justified for OQ's first action to be planning to kill MM. There are other means of justice. It sort of goes directly against TA's philosophy which is to find another way.

[Carrie Ann]

To be honest, I don't want it either, and I don't actually think it will happen. I really don't think Oliver (or Thea, of course) should have to be the one to kill Malcolm, for any number of reasons. And I don't think they will--or even if they try, they will fail. I think we're stuck with MM through next season, as part of the show's original 5 Year Plan. I do think Oliver and the team are going to have to face up to it though--the fact that Malcolm kinda needs to die. If the show is still going to push that illogical "no prison can hold me" line, then what other solution is there to prevent him from doing more damage? Personally, my spoiler-free guess is that Malcolm and H.I.V.E. (with DD somewhere in the mix) will represent the big final battle this year, and Team Arrow will beat the immediate H.I.V.E threat (and probably DD), but Malcolm will get away.

[kismet]

I agree that TA & especially OQ has to face up to the fact that MM has to die. I guess I just wish it wasn't always OQ that has to be the one to do it. He already killed him once. It really bothered me when Nyssa came to OQ, to get him to do her dirty work. Personally, it's one of the reasons that I hate that Moira is no more, because she would have been the perfect person to kill MM. It would have been a perfect solution to all the bad he did to her & her family. For me, when a villain has been so ingrained in a group and has had lines that have become blurred, it becomes hard to want the main character to be the one to do it, especially considering OQ's complicated history with MM. Whereas MQ would have been a less complicated choice. It's like when Jack was responsible for Sloan's demise in ALIAS, it just worked. Sydney always wanted to do it, but somehow it just made more sense that Jack did it to protect his daughter since he was unable to protect her from being brought in, in the first place. MQ was never able to protect her children, which is why she kills MM. But alas, she is not an option.

 

I feel like it needs to be a Queen that takes down MM, but I don't want it to be OQ by default only. I also don't want TQ to have to kill her Dad. Which really only leaves FS or Dig which are Queen-family adjacent. I could see Dig doing it, but I can't see a scenario that would set it up and make him seem the best option. I honestly could see FS doing it, but then she will be responsible for killing somebody and I'm not sure the show wants to take her there. Perhaps the show will take the angle of whatever Queen that does it, does it to protect the family. Which makes me think we have not seen the end of William. If OQ is the one to kill MM, I imagine that the show will rope William back into the plot to make it more about protecting the family and less about revenge, as opposed to just killing MM for reasons (even if the reasons are quasi-valid).

 

Also if killing Sara and making Thea a killer was not enough to convince OQ to at least throw MM in prison, nevermind kill him ~ I can't imagine

putting LL

in the grave will be the thing that gets him to the realization that MM has to die. So there has to be more bad MM stuff coming down the pike in the next few seasons.

[BkWurm1]

. I honestly could see FS doing it, but then she will be responsible for killing somebody and I'm not sure the show wants to take her there.

 

I have a hard time thinking of how Felicity would be able to kill Malcolm (and if she did, lol, can you imagine the accusations of aggrandizing her)  but I have a feeling that in a future season Felicity having to kill someone will be a story arc. 

[looptab]

I have a hard time thinking of how Felicity would be able to kill Malcolm (and if she did, lol, can you imagine the accusations of aggrandizing her) but I have a feeling that in a future season Felicity having to kill someone will be a story arc.

That's something I go back and forth on. Like, part of me likes that she's the one that has never killed. The other part would like to see what it would take her to do that, how she'd react.

[BunsenBurner]

Didn't Felicity kill Isabel?

[statsgirl]

No, she only hit her with the van. It was Nyssa who killed Isabel dead dead.

[ComicFan777]

I imagine that Felicity is pretty fierce when protecting other people.  If she sees that someone she cares about is in danger, I don't think she would hesitate to pull the trigger.  She would only think about it afterwards.  It reminds me of when she saved Sara from the Clock King and zapped him.  After he was out, then she asked if he was dead - so she probably wouldn't think of the consequences until afterwards.  The most important thing to her would be saving people first and foremost, consequences be damned. 

[AyChihuahua]

Didn't Felicity kill Isabel?

Felicity hit her with the van. In fairness, she probably expected to kill her, but Isabel was Mirakuru'd, she got back up, Digg said "Go go go." Later Nyssa broke her neck.

 

Yeah, Felicity would totally kill a bad guy to protect someone she loves. She'd deal with the emotional fallout later. I'm okay with that, personally. The show tries to make a lot of easy decisions super hard, but nah. Kill MM. Kill Slade. Kill RAG. Kill Isabel. IRL obviously I'd at least want more discussion, but in my fiction, they all deserve killing.

Edited March 2, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[BunsenBurner]

Ok I just kind of remembered that she hit her and then backed up and hit her again and I thought she then died. My bad. But it still shows that she is not adverse to killing someone.

[jay741982]

I agree that Felicity would only kill to protect a loved one Oliver, Diggle and Donna on the top of the list(also Baby Sara and any future Olicity babies LOL). And I do think it will be a plot line maybe as soon as next season

[looptab]

Do you think that Oliver will mention again Barry erasing the timeline  in future episodes? 

 

I love how that comes up in discussions about the breakup, that Oliver should have just told Felicity that the last time he told her they all died - implying that it all went to hell because she knew. Uh, what?

[kismet]

I could see FS spontaneously killing someone out of self-protection or to protect a loved one. I have a harder time with imagining her doing it as part of a grander plan or mission. I definitely see her as a protect people I love first in that immediate moment and think about consequences later.

[tv echo]

If they turn Curtis into someone who can fight physically as well as be super smart, then I want them to show Felicity getting at least some self-defense training.

[BkWurm1]

If they turn Curtis into someone who can fight physically as well as be super smart, then I want them to show Felicity getting at least some self-defense training.

I want it with or without Curtis becoming Mr. Terrific. 

 

Speaking of MT, I can't help worry over his hubby.  We've seen him now three times?  Dead man walking.  I wonder if he'll make it to the end of the season or die after the summer.

[DeadZeus]

I was randomly thinking of an awesome scenario for Oliver to return to darkness in terms of the death of whoever is in the grave.

Imagine Oliver/GA witnessing the murder, then being overrun by Ghosts and he just loses it and KILLS all of them, only to see the murderer got away. If something similar to this happened i would forgive the show for all their crap.

[AyChihuahua]

I was randomly thinking of an awesome scenario for Oliver to return to darkness in terms of the death of whoever is in the grave.

Imagine Oliver/GA witnessing the murder, then being overrun by Ghosts and he just loses it and KILLS all of them, only to see the murderer got away. If something similar to this happened i would forgive the show for all their crap.

He's not going to return to darkness in any even semi-permanent way. That goes against the whole point of the show, which is a hero's journey. He can, however, go back to being a badass. That's just the stunt coordinator's fault, really. He doesn't have to kill everybody to be a badass, see, e.g., most of S2.

[kismet]

I think the only place we will see OQ return to the darkness is in the flashbacks. However, the writers seem to forget that they were supposed to be writing OQ getting to that dark place we found him in the pilot and not just paralleling the present.

 

I do hope the stunt coordinators return to writing OQ as a badass in the action scenes though, this whole season has been a complete failure on the stunt dept to create & film captivating stunt sequences.

[wonderwall]

IF Laurel dies, I'm going to be happy about a few things:

 

• Never having to hear the phrase "BUT COMICS" again
• Never having to see that incredibly ridiculous canary cry again
• Never being subjected to anymore Lance family drama again
• Never having to roll my eyes when Laurel decides to be the moral center which ends up making her look like a hypocrite again
• Never having to be subjected to seeing her bicker with Oliver like school kids
• Never having to see her do her l'oreal hair flips during fight scenes or see her just not know what to do in them

Edited March 6, 2016 by wonderwall

[wonderwall]

Well this is incredibly alarming:

 

[SleepDeprived]

So, Oliver would be losing his memories sometime in S5, then? Probably during the wedding episode/crossover. Lol.

[bijoux]

Well, it's hard to say, isn't it? On the one hand, Oliver and Sarah are the action halfs of the duos. On the other, they are Oliver and Chuck stories.

[SleepDeprived]

True, true. But IF Arrow actually does do an amnesia plot with Oliver/Felicity, my bet will be it'll be just prior to, during, or right after their wedding. Because that's just the super fun type of plotline that MG will not be able to resist.

[kismet]

There are some strong correlations between Sarah & Oliver; and Felicity & Chuck..... And that chart is really eerie. Eek :/

We have to anticipate an amnesia plot because its too juicy of a plot quagmire for MG & co to pass up.Im betting winter s5 cliffhanger. Then the show can spend winter episodes & feb sweeps moving them back together. And have are traditional reunion at ep 20.

Bonus plotty angst points if in his amnesia, OQ fights for the bad side.

[looptab]

I'm okay with Oliver having amnesia if that means getting rid of the flashbacks. Or at least it's used as a way to make them relevant again, like they are actually framed as memories Oliver is reacquiring, triggered by something in the present, and not just a parallel story in the episodes with scarce connection or impact to PD.

[jay741982]

Remember though Chuck did that in the last three episodes ever I HATED it and I wasn't really happy with how they ended Chuck

[Scribbles]

Bonus plotty angst points if in his amnesia, OQ fights for the bad side.

Amnesia and it making someone go bad for a while got covered by Roy under Mirakuru, hopefully that fulfilled the fetish.

[tarotx]

Oh an amnesia like story is coming because they are kind of redoing season 3 and though it was Fake, it had Oliver pretend to be brainwashed Al sah him.

[kismet]

Amnesia and it making someone go bad for a while got covered by Roy under Mirakuru, hopefully that fulfilled the fetish.

Not really, because Roy did bad things but he wasn't actively working for the bad guys. And he forgot his time under the Mirakuru haze... We have yet to experience true TV amnesia where people do not remember who they are.

 

@tarotx is right, we were close with Al-sha-him. OQ working with bad guys - check; OQ forgetting he was OQ - check. But then they had to muddy the waters with possible brainwashing & OQ faking it.

 

I see the writers going full-tilt TV Amnesia (no faking it for a mission, no magic drugs) for their next trope-extravaganza. Someone on Arrow needs to have no idea who they are for at least an episode if not more. So that friends/family have to repeat back memories to trigger memories.

 

Just to be clear - I'm neither supporting this storyline, nor do I believe it would make a good storyline (esp with these writers). Just saying it fits the pattern of tropes that the writers seem to need to achieve.

[NumberCruncher]

*whispers* I actually liked how Chuck ended. /unpopular opinion

And yes, the comparisons between the two shows have always been there which is great for me because I love them both. :)

[kismet]

*whispers* I actually liked how Chuck ended. /unpopular opinion

And yes, the comparisons between the two shows have always been there which is great for me because I love them both. :)

I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it ~ However, I think it was a smart way to end all things considered. And they are way to behind on making that movie...

 

I do think that if Arrow does it, it won't be as traumatic as Chuck because we know they will fix it in 2-3 episodes - where Chuck didn't have the opportunity. :(

[Scribbles]

Not really, because Roy did bad things but he wasn't actively working for the bad guys. And he forgot his time under the Mirakuru haze... We have yet to experience true TV amnesia where people do not remember who they are.

 

 

I see the writers going full-tilt TV Amnesia (no faking it for a mission, no magic drugs) for their next trope-extravaganza. Someone on Arrow needs to have no idea who they are for at least an episode if not more. So that friends/family have to repeat back memories to trigger memories.

 

Just to be clear - I'm neither supporting this storyline, nor do I believe it would make a good storyline (esp with these writers). Just saying it fits the pattern of tropes that the writers seem to need to achieve.

See bold and please note the playful sarcasm to follow:  Don't we see this every time the chosen story bit needs a character to go along? :) 

 

If they do go amnesia, they really need to go full on trope and give Slade his due.  Let the guy have hypnotic abilities and torture Oliver with Felicity going googly eyes for him. 

 

I am not a fan of amnesia or hypnotism, so I guess I am hoping they avoid that.