S06.E02: Tchaikovsky

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

In the media thread, a few of the reviews I posted mention that Tchaikovsky' mother died while he was young, and I think he wrote this for her.  ?

Tchaikovsky was also gay and had to hide that fact in Tsarists Russia. This was suppressed by the Soviets, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't being erased again now in Putin's era.

So a piece about a "Lonely Heart" would maybe have other resonances there. There was a reference above to that line that made it seem like Stavos might be gay--who knows, maybe Claudia is too. Okay, I don't really think the piece is some coded nod to Claudia's sexuality one way or the other. But a piece with that title might absolutely be referencing the fact that Tchaikovsky lived in fear of his true self being discovered. If the title is an indication of what he was thinking when he made it, it connects to the artist making art to express her feelings about dying. The music expressed what he had to hide.

Elsewhere someone suggested that Claudia was trying to reconnect Elizabeth to her emotions by showing her art (movie last week, music this week, asking about the artist's work) because she can see she's burnt out, but if that's the case I would hope the show would only be doing that to show how incapable she is at that. That is, Claudia can't represent the Centre and the same "the mission is the only thing that's important and the only acceptable feelings are the ones that don't contradict that"--btw, don't tell Philip-- and also be an emotional caretaker or whatever. Elizabeth doesn't connect to her emotions through art. She connected to her feelings, by her own admission, via Philip. And also the kids, presumably, but that means kids as kids and not as recruits.

[crgirl412]

I really miss Philip and Elizabeth working together.  It has the feeling, at least to me, of one of those very successful tv shows that has a spin off with some of the characters and they're doing different things now.  They are the "same" but everything is different.   

[Dev F]

Regarding the significance of Tchaikovsky, I wonder if it also has something to do with the exchange between Elizabeth and Claudia: "She's not a big classical music fan." "Well, that's because she doesn't know Tchaikovsky." It's echoed in Erica's argument to Liz about appreciating art: "You're never gonna really see until you try to do it." In other words, you can't really connect with something unless you immerse yourself in it, even the parts -- especially the parts -- that are hard for you, that are filled with loneliness and suffering like Tchaikovsky.

And then you have Tchaikovsky playing over Liz and Paige's conversation about honeypotting, where Liz is deliberately preventing Paige from immersing herself in the realities of the espionage game, refusing to "draw the dark parts" of the world her daughter is entering. So it will never really be Paige's world.

And in that way it echoes the other storylines in the episode, which are also about the danger of these half-hearted connections. You have to be all the way in, together, or your counterintelligence ops are going to fall apart, your travel agency's clients are going to leave you, and you and your wife and going to drift apart.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Dev F

[sistermagpie]

52 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Regarding the significance of Tchaikovsky, I wonder if it also has something to do with the exchange between Elizabeth and Claudia: "She's not a big classical music fan." "Well, that's because she doesn't know Tchaikovsky." It's echoed in Erica's argument to Liz about appreciating art: "You're never gonna really see until you try to do it." In other words, you can't really connect with something unless you immerse yourself in it, even the parts -- especially the parts -- that are hard for you, that are filled with loneliness and suffering like Tchaikovsky.

It's also a sort of cliche older generation thing to say. Elizabeth is reporting Paige's actual preference and Claudia is dismissing it as if Paige can't really dislike something she thinks is great. She just needs to be forced to stand there and listen to it. It meant something to Claudia at the end of the war, so obviously Paige needs to try to feel the same way.

Because of course Paige already knows Tchaikovsky. Elizabeth even took her to at least one of his entire ballets. Now she's supposed to have a different emotional reaction because it's what Claudia feels and he's Russian.

The half-hearted connection in that case wouldn't be about Elizabeth trying to shield Paige from ugly experiences (which she's probably doing because she feels a connection to her that's not dependent on the cause) but about Paige wanting to perform the correct connections because that's what you need to do when your social group is based on this shared thing. Likewise, in order to be close to Pastor Tim and a part of that world, Paige adopted a lot of beliefs and povs she had never had previously--and she did it really fast.  Now we've seen her happily listening to someone refer to "the Americans" as if she's Russian and she's quite possibly an atheist--and not because she went through an exploration of religions or whatever, but because her new social group is atheist. It's Paige seeking beliefs that make her part of the group, not Paige seeking a group that fits her beliefs.

But people do form real connections without needing the excuse of being in a foxhole together at all times. The problem with those kinds of social situations is if you change your beliefs, you're ostracized even if you are all in on the relationship yourself.

Edited April 7, 2018 by sistermagpie

[jjj]

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's also a sort of cliche older generation thing to say. Elizabeth is reporting Paige's actual preference and Claudia is dismissing it as if Paige can't really dislike something she thinks is great. She just needs to be forced to stand there and listen to it. It meant something to Claudia at the end of the war, so obviously Paige needs to try to feel the same way.

This is exactly my reaction to this part of the episode -- it was not about Tchaikovsky, but about Claudia trying to connect emotionally with Paige.  And this was after the scene where Elizabeth had said Claudia could "finish Paige" if anything happened to Elizabeth, so I took it partly as Claudia trying to open up to Paige a little.  Or to open up Paige, but Paige was not impressed.  From Paige's perspective, it is like Claudia made a batch of her mother's sugar cookies, and overlaid the cookies with a story of how they never had sugar, but somehow her mother made a batch of cookies for Claudia, and then Claudia was forever afterward connecting with her mother through these special cookies.  And Paige says, "yeah, cookies, cool" to be polite.   

[CaliCheeseSucks]

16 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

How many detailed covers are we supposed to believe she has?

...

Also, Elisabeth seems to have no redeeming characteristics whatsoever. Which makes her rather on interesting to me.

...

I hope it picks up soon. I remember really like this one the show began, but it’s hard not to feel it’s just completely gone off the rails.

If I could give you a million likes for all of this; particularly the ludicrous number of cover identities. As I asked last season when P&E were sent on Mission: Wheat and then back and forth to Boston because of some unconvincing urgency to confront a traitor from World War II for goodness sakes... If Mother Russia had such an extensive supply of costumes, identities, low-level assets, safe houses, etc., and could jet people around all over the country with relative ease, how is it they only had two agents to cover the entire U.S. region from Oklahoma to New England and all points south? The level of "suspend your disbelief" has skyrocketed since season four and has just become utterly absurd. 

[Ellaria]

6 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

If I could give you a million likes for all of this; particularly the ludicrous number of cover identities. As I asked last season when P&E were sent on Mission: Wheat and then back and forth to Boston because of some unconvincing urgency to confront a traitor from World War II for goodness sakes... If Mother Russia had such an extensive supply of costumes, identities, low-level assets, safe houses, etc., and could jet people around all over the country with relative ease, how is it they only had two agents to cover the entire U.S. region from Oklahoma to New England and all points south? The level of "suspend your disbelief" has skyrocketed since season four and has just become utterly absurd. 

Frankly, I agree with this post. I often find myself laughing at the zillion different cover identities and costumes involved. Elizabeth (and previously Philip) have to be quite precise when they grab a wig or a pair of glasses for work. She can't get careless and show up for lunch in the State Dept cafeteria wearing the curly red wig reserved for her role as a in-home nurse. And I've often wondered why there aren't any other "senior level" spies to carry-out some of them work. However, none of it lessens my interest in the show or my ability to suspend disbelief.

[renatae]

On 4/4/2018 at 11:18 PM, Umbelina said:

So Elizabeth is torturing her, I was a bit confused about that.  However, I've NEVER heard of a hospice nurse, or the equivalent EVER caring if a dying patient might become addicted to pain killers.  That was bullshit, they are there to keep them out of pain as much as possible

I got the feeling Elizabeth might not have wanted any accidental OD's to interfere with her spying. And when I heard her tell Claudia, "NOW she has to suffer terrible pain," it seemed she may have subbed some placebos in for the morphine to keep Glenn from offing her before the summit is over.

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Elsewhere someone suggested that Claudia was trying to reconnect Elizabeth to her emotions by showing her art (movie last week, music this week, asking about the artist's work) because she can see she's burnt out, but if that's the case I would hope the show would only be doing that to show how incapable she is at that. That is, Claudia can't represent the Centre and the same "the mission is the only thing that's important and the only acceptable feelings are the ones that don't contradict that"--btw, don't tell Philip-- and also be an emotional caretaker or whatever. Elizabeth doesn't connect to her emotions through art. She connected to her feelings, by her own admission, via Philip. And also the kids, presumably, but that means kids as kids and not as recruits.

It may have been me, but I was talking about Paige, not Elizabeth, because you're absolutely right about Elizabeth.

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's also a sort of cliche older generation thing to say. Elizabeth is reporting Paige's actual preference and Claudia is dismissing it as if Paige can't really dislike something she thinks is great. She just needs to be forced to stand there and listen to it. It meant something to Claudia at the end of the war, so obviously Paige needs to try to feel the same way.

Because of course Paige already knows Tchaikovsky. Elizabeth even took her to at least one of his entire ballets. Now she's supposed to have a different emotional reaction because it's what Claudia feels and he's Russian.

The half-hearted connection in that case wouldn't be about Elizabeth trying to shield Paige from ugly experiences (which she's probably doing because she feels a connection to her that's not dependent on the cause) but about Paige wanting to perform the correct connections because that's what you need to do when your social group is based on this shared thing. Likewise, in order to be close to Pastor Tim and a part of that world, Paige adopted a lot of beliefs and povs she had never had previously--and she did it really fast.  Now we've seen her happily listening to someone refer to "the Americans" as if she's Russian and she's quite possibly an atheist--and not because she went through an exploration of religions or whatever, but because her new social group is atheist. It's Paige seeking beliefs that make her part of the group, not Paige seeking a group that fits her beliefs.

But people do form real connections without needing the excuse of being in a foxhole together at all times. The problem with those kinds of social situations is if you change your beliefs, you're ostracized even if you are all in on the relationship yourself.

 

Indeed, it is. I'd forgotten Elizabeth took Paige to hear Tchaikovsky, because my reaction was that Elizabeth herself couldn't be trusted to know what Paige did or didn't like. As for the dismissing someone's stated dislike or interest - my kids do the same thing to me about stuff they're passionate about. I hear them out - because it means something to them. Even if you aren't ultimately converted, it does matter to them that you listen.

8 hours ago, jjj said:

This is exactly my reaction to this part of the episode -- it was not about Tchaikovsky, but about Claudia trying to connect emotionally with Paige.  And this was after the scene where Elizabeth had said Claudia could "finish Paige" if anything happened to Elizabeth, so I took it partly as Claudia trying to open up to Paige a little.  Or to open up Paige, but Paige was not impressed.  From Paige's perspective, it is like Claudia made a batch of her mother's sugar cookies, and overlaid the cookies with a story of how they never had sugar, but somehow her mother made a batch of cookies for Claudia, and then Claudia was forever afterward connecting with her mother through these special cookies.  And Paige says, "yeah, cookies, cool" to be polite.   

Yes, I think Paige's perspective is entirely that.

To be fair though, there is a germ of truth in the idea that you can't dislike something until you're exposed to it fully (just a tiny germ - no one is ever going to convince me to eat a snail). There are some things that don't reach us, emotionally or intellectually, until we are old enough - or in the right mind set - to appreciate them. There are musicians on my playlists these days that I never listened to in their heyday, but their lyrics now resonate. And there's one old singer (as in my parent's heyday, which since I'm old, means a long time ago) that I love now, which astonishes me as I hated his music when my parents played him. Likewise authors, and artists.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Clanstarling

[SusanSunflower]

Was Claudia then "making a memory" recognizing how unsentimental and duty-bound -- head not heart --  Paige was "just like her mother" perhaps in response to her chilly analytical reaction to "Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears" ... Somehow recognizing that Paige will never get a lump in her throat or tears in her eyes at sight of the flag being raised or  the playing of the Internationale (which even chilly Elizabeth likely would) ... so Bring on the Tchaikovsky blow-torch to unmelt that heart ...  Fail! 

ETA:  Just another installment of cultural education, like the cooking lesson ... a dish Paige will likely never make again unless prodded. It may be delicious, but why make that when you can make extra-cheesy scalloped potatoes

Edited April 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[chick binewski]

On 4/6/2018 at 10:34 AM, Bannon said:

Oh, well, at least the stupid Kimmie arc seems to have disappeared.

I have forgotten much of S5 but I keep thinking they will bring her back this season. Her father got a promotion and I think something was mentioned about Phillip sticking with her even if he left his spy job? Also, she'll be considered legally able to consent to a relationship so...no - yeah, it's still a whole lot of ew.

Hell, maybe they'll have Paige take her on and create a spinoff called YA CIA. Unfortunately they'd probably get each other killed during the first episode.

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

I'd forgotten Elizabeth took Paige to hear Tchaikovsky

I'm not sure if it was something we saw on the show. It could have been something that happened before the show, like Elizabeth took her to see The Nutcracker at the Kennedy Center (or some other venue/production) when Paige was about 10. 

[jjj]

1 minute ago, Sarah 103 said:

I'm not sure if it was something we saw on the show. It could have been something that happened before the show, like Elizabeth took her to see The Nutcracker at the Kennedy Center (or some other venue/production) when Paige was about 10. 

I am sure this was never on the show.  Just a piece of back story.

[SusanSunflower]

I'm tempted to ask, "Who hasn't seen / heard "the nutcracker"?"  even if they didn't know that's the name of their Yule time ear worm.  We played it in the Christmas orchestra recital in junior high.  I'm not sure I've ever seen it beyond 5-10 minutes here or there. 

I hope Claudia figures out that Tolstoy, Puskin, Turgenev, Yevteshenko and/or movies of their work are unlikely to provoke an emotional response from this little American philistine's heart .... I remember being blown away by the Hermitage and its collections, particularly modern art, and also some of the architecture and (?) cathedrals  -- how old and ornate they were.  I had not appreciated the how longstanding and deep Russia's cultural history was (being an American philistine) but I did understand that Russia was not a simple wasteland of illiterate peasants versus the Czar prior to 1917 ...  it was the outstanding quality of the works in the Hermitage that came as a surprise (but then I am conversant wrt art and appreciative)  

Edited April 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

It may have been me, but I was talking about Paige, not Elizabeth, because you're absolutely right about Elizabeth.

Oh no, definitely not you. It wasn't on this board. It was an interpretation of the movie and music that I hadn't thought of, but it just occurred to me how weak it would be. But in a fitting way for Claudia. It would be OOC and a cheat for her to have a better solution than, "Oh, you're dead inside? Um, have you tried watching some state approved art? That always made me feel good after The War."

With Paige I think the attempt to connect emotionally through the movie and music is very explicit. Though again, not necessarily completely successful. She's trying to teach Paige to love this foreign country and culture and it doesn't really work that way. There are of course people who do connect passionately to a culture because they're introduced to it through its art. Kids get into anime and wind up studying Japanese and living in Japan, for instance. I have a friend who became a linguist and totally fluent in German after listening to a song in Germany when she was 13--that really was the first inspiration. This show has inspired plenty of interest about Russia in plenty of viewers. But Paige isn't connected to that so far that I've seen. The movie didn't seem to inspire a fascination with anything specifically Russian in it (it was Claudia who kept bringing things back to how things were there as opposed to how things were in the movie--ETA: she even called the actual characters in it "silly little girls " that Elizabeth might have been if not being lucky enough to be recruited) and her connection to Tchaikovsky was still more about a memory of her mom taking her to the ballet than Russia's historical suffering. Paige is trying to find herself in this movement--herself being an American teenager in the 80s.

I really hope that this is intentional and leading to a problem. I think that's just in my mind more after the Henry phone call as well. Because the show has always showed both sides of this sort of thing, that on one hand you have the connection that comes through a tribalism of us vs. them and how that can be a help to connection for people like Elizabeth. But then it also shows that people can connect despite differences and just make that effort. Paige's conversations throughout this and the last ep are so WEIGHTED and directed toward connection, yet are all about getting her ready to be a red shirt for the cause. Philip and Henry's conversation is light and just about some stupid thing that happened to Henry that day he thought was funny, but the sense of comfort and connection between them was clear.

I do wonder if part of this isn't the performances as well. KR is very good at playing when Elizabeth can't really connect with people and the few times she can. Paige seems to have that same problem, though in her case I'm not sure it's intentional since we've been told flat-out that we're supposed to be seeing Paige "bonding" with Elizabeth and Claudia and the same was true with the Tims and she never seemed too comfortable with them either. But I remember last season a little scene where Henry had a reaction with Philip that made an impression on me because even though we rarely saw Henry this one exchange made them seem like two people very comfortable with each other, even if there's also scenes where they're in total conflict. In the scene in this ep Henry was the same way but Philip was obviously not quite there and Henry picked up on it and drew him out.

I guess it might just be wishful thinking on my part that part of the Paige arc is saying that you can't create the specific emotional connection you want just because you want it and Claudia and Elizabeth are both in some denial here that's potential dangerous for everyone. It's like that famous Annie Hall scene with the lobsters.

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

As for the dismissing someone's stated dislike or interest - my kids do the same thing to me about stuff they're passionate about. I hear them out - because it means something to them. Even if you aren't ultimately converted, it does matter to them that you listen.

Right. It's totally normal, especially with different generations. And probably even more so with people who are less self-aware about their own passions. That is, some people don't understand how much the context in which they experienced something explains how much they love it. So they just insist that music really was much better when they were a teenager in the 60s and don't understand how teenagers today can't see that. Maybe they just need to listen to Jimi Hendrix again and really LISTEN this time?

But you make the effort and respect the other person's attempts to connect, which Paige is doing. You never know when you will hit on something you both wind up really loving. I remember 3 books my mom gave me to read because she loved them so much as a kid. The first two I thought were totally bizarre. But the third was fantastic.

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

There are musicians on my playlists these days that I never listened to in their heyday, but their lyrics now resonate. And there's one old singer (as in my parent's heyday, which since I'm old, means a long time ago) that I love now, which astonishes me as I hated his music when my parents played him. Likewise authors, and artists.

Absolutely--though I think on the show there's also the added weight of the political aspect. Claudia probably does want to connect with Paige personally--we know she can't connect to her own daughter and grandchildren personally even though they're Russian themselves. But she's also trying to tie her specifically to the USSR in ways that other spies haven't had to do. The point of the second gen program is that she's the child of Illegals so Claudia wants her to identify as a Russian rather than as an American. Though again, Paige is not being connected to the USSR of 1987, she's listening to grandma's stories of the old country 40 years ago.

1 hour ago, chick binewski said:

I have forgotten much of S5 but I keep thinking they will bring her back this season. Her father got a promotion and I think something was mentioned about Phillip sticking with her even if he left his spy job? Also, she'll be considered legally able to consent to a relationship so...no - yeah, it's still a whole lot of ew.

They wound up staying because her father was the head of the Soviet Division now. That to me sounded like Philip would have to keep working her. But maybe he did that until she went to college and then retired completely?

54 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I'm not sure if it was something we saw on the show. It could have been something that happened before the show, like Elizabeth took her to see The Nutcracker at the Kennedy Center (or some other venue/production) when Paige was about 10. 

They're referring to what was said in the episode. Elizabeth told Paige she'd taken her to see the Nutcracker and Paige said she remembered it.

Quote

remember being blown away by the Hermitage and its collections, particularly modern art, and also some of the architecture and (?) cathedrals  -- how old and ornate they were.  I had not appreciated the how longstanding and deep Russia's cultural history was (being an American philistine) but I did understand that Russia was not a simple wasteland of illiterate peasants versus the Czar prior to 1917

Heh. I got seriously into some 19th century Russian lit when I was a few years older than Paige. Paige herself is doing research on the her new friends the KGB, not Russia.

Edited April 7, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Tighthead]

Asking about the amount of missions/identities/operations going on, has there ever been a point where two things were red hot at the same time? I appreciate now that the Summit would heighten certain issues, but it’s ridiculous how much Elizabeth has on her plate right now.  She is one of their most valuable operatives.  I also agree that while Paige needs to learn fundamental spycraft, much of it involves needless risk for someone so valuable and promising.

Going to Boston for a non-urgent mission was ridiculous. 

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Tighthead said:

Going to Boston for a non-urgent mission was ridiculous. 

I have to say, I think calling this mission non-urgent is incorrect. Maybe western viewers in 2017 don't care whether a Russian WWII traitor is discovered living happily in Boston, but that doesn't mean Soviets who lived through the war wouldn't care very much about it.

[SusanSunflower]

It was non urgent, because they weren't going anywhere ... they didn't need to be killed before the first of the month and it's hard to imagine that only P&E had the skilz to make a positive identification and commit the execution ... I think having Elizabeth babysit Paige doing entry-level suveillance (when there's a team available to keep an eye on the new girl) is worse ... I don't know why Elizabeth would be in on the scene supervising that surveillance operation rather than trusting team members.  -- Done right, don't think there was even need for good English language or assimilation 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

It was non urgent, because they weren't going anywhere ... they didn't need to be killed before the first of the month and it's hard to imagine that only P&E had the skilz to make a positive identification and commit the execution ... I think having Elizabeth babysit Paige doing entry-level suveillance (when there's a team available to keep an eye on the new girl) is worse ... I don't know why Elizabeth would be in on the scene supervising that surveillance operation rather than trusting team members.  -- Done right, don't think there was even need for good English language or assimilation 

Oh sure, the traitor woman wasn't some mission that Elizabeth and Philip were uniquely suited for. There isn't much argument for why it had to be them. But the job itself would I think be top priority. She's not going anywhere because she's been living in comfort for decades already. They'd want to put a stop to that asap. A loose end can wait. Justice can't. At least that's how I'd imagine them seeing it.

[SusanSunflower]

The Centre wasn't even positive it was the right pair ... Who even knew this pair of war criminals had (likely?) been located, chomping at the bit to know they were dead?  but whatever.   

I just realized that it's 3 years since season 5, and that Paige went with Elizabeth to Russia to meet her grandmother in Season 3.  Is Claudia actually judging Elizabeth''s indoctrination/education success ... I think it's been at least 6 years and Paige mostly resembles a girl scout doing tasks in follow the leader fashion. 

Broken record:  Paige does not have the depth of commitment to bounce back from failure or for the centre to reasonably expect she will follow an order she dislikes (honey trap for instance) ... I can imagine Paige questioning and/or trying to bargain her way out of the latter and being a zombie (deeply traumatized) if someone she knew got killed.

Edited April 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Tighthead]

45 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I have to say, I think calling this mission non-urgent is incorrect. Maybe western viewers in 2017 don't care whether a Russian WWII traitor is discovered living happily in Boston, but that doesn't mean Soviets who lived through the war wouldn't care very much about it.

I fail to see an argument for urgency in what you wrote.

They would care about it, but I fail so see any urgency or importance in regard to the Cold War. It was settling a 40 year old matter.  Why two such valuable assets would be risked and strained to carry out the mission is beyond me. 

[Umbelina]

11 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

If I could give you a million likes for all of this; particularly the ludicrous number of cover identities. As I asked last season when P&E were sent on Mission: Wheat and then back and forth to Boston because of some unconvincing urgency to confront a traitor from World War II for goodness sakes... If Mother Russia had such an extensive supply of costumes, identities, low-level assets, safe houses, etc., and could jet people around all over the country with relative ease, how is it they only had two agents to cover the entire U.S. region from Oklahoma to New England and all points south? The level of "suspend your disbelief" has skyrocketed since season four and has just become utterly absurd. 

I don't have any problem with all the disguises Elizabeth had.  Russians, as Stan once said, "are very good with disguises."  So were the CIA by the way, but the FBI had little need of them since they operated on American soil.  I'm not saying the FBI didn't have them, they did, just not at the level of the KGB or CIA.  By this time they we also getting into the silicone full face masks that could look like a coworker, or turn a white guy into a believable African tribal leader.  There is some good information out there about disguises, but not all of them, since they are still being used.

but...to the next part...

4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Frankly, I agree with this post. I often find myself laughing at the zillion different cover identities and costumes involved. Elizabeth (and previously Philip) have to be quite precise when they grab a wig or a pair of glasses for work. She can't get careless and show up for lunch in the State Dept cafeteria wearing the curly red wig reserved for her role as a in-home nurse. And I've often wondered why there aren't any other "senior level" spies to carry-out some of them work. However, none of it lessens my interest in the show or my ability to suspend disbelief.

Elizabeth is a trained professional, and that training included the ability to work on no, or little sleep.  If she couldn't do that, they would have never continued training her for a job as important as this.  She's not going to mix up wigs or glasses. 

We know why Elizabeth is doing so many jobs right now.  They've lost several of their embedded spies in that area, Philip, William, that murdered by their kid father and mother, even Gabe is gone.  On top of that, the situation in the USSR is critical, in addition to the issues they already had there, which are numerous, now they are very close to a complete bankruptcy because they put so much money, effort, personnel into fighting "Star Wars" for the past several years, they diverted resources from other needed areas for this.  NOW, the summit is on them, and we've seen that the Soviets are divided on this issue, not just regular soviets, but the power player soviets.

I do agree with you that other non-embedded spying KGB could (and would) certainly carry out surveillance normally.  We did hear the FBI guys say that they were stretched because now they are following all the Russians in town, and that would include Residentura staff.  They can't follow Elizabeth because they don't know about her.

Other normal Russian spys can't do what Elizabeth does.  They can't chat with the dude at State, or pretend to be an American nurse, or accomplish what the anti-Gorbachev forces want, or even, right now, do the surveillance, since the FBI is watching their every move.  Since the FBI is operating on home soil, they could also get some help with routine stuff from other US agencies, and probably even a few police as well.  Russia can't.

However, I think they have a few embedded spy couples in other cities, and if so, I certainly hope they've deployed them to help with the summit, and so far, we just haven't heard about it.  Who knows though, they could also be busy with other areas critical to the USSR right now?

3 hours ago, renatae said:

I got the feeling Elizabeth might not have wanted any accidental OD's to interfere with her spying. And when I heard her tell Claudia, "NOW she has to suffer terrible pain," it seemed she may have subbed some placebos in for the morphine to keep Glenn from offing her before the summit is over.

That's the part I really don't understand.  WHAT did Elizabeth mean by that statement?  Also, you could be right.

35 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh sure, the traitor woman wasn't some mission that Elizabeth and Philip were uniquely suited for. There isn't much argument for why it had to be them. But the job itself would I think be top priority. She's not going anywhere because she's been living in comfort for decades already. They'd want to put a stop to that asap. A loose end can wait. Justice can't. At least that's how I'd imagine them seeing it.

I've thought about that, because initially I wondered why they would use Philip and Elizabeth on that one.

I decided they needed plausible cover, in case that simply was not the woman they were looking for.  If it wasn't her, they needed to be able to walk away, unsuspected.  So, they had to have perfect English and normal American traits.  Someone like Vlad or Oleg or Nina or others like them at the Russian Embassy, could easily do a straight hit, but they couldn't have spoken with her, and made sure she was the correct person, and easily walked away if she wasn't. 

ETA

The urgency was that they'd been looking for this woman for decades, they didn't want her to sense something and bounce.  So to avoid spooking her, the Russians who approached her needed to seem exactly like any other Americans.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Umbelina

[CaliCheeseSucks]

Everything about Paige Jennings: Teenage Spy just reinforces my belief that the showrunners never really had this planned out as tightly as they claimed. Personally, I found her internal struggles at coping with the awareness of her parents' real occupation vs. Paige's own instinctive spiritual leanings far more compelling, and believable. And even that storyline was wasted by the ultimate cop-out of just writing off Pastor Tim when the writers ran empty with where to take it.

If the show doesn't end up sticking to the landing by the end, the gif of Paige screaming, "MOM!" in the woods will become the avatar for where it all went wrong.  

[Erin9]

14 hours ago, Dev F said:

Regarding the significance of Tchaikovsky, I wonder if it also has something to do with the exchange between Elizabeth and Claudia: "She's not a big classical music fan." "Well, that's because she doesn't know Tchaikovsky." It's echoed in Erica's argument to Liz about appreciating art: "You're never gonna really see until you try to do it." In other words, you can't really connect with something unless you immerse yourself in it, even the parts -- especially the parts -- that are hard for you, that are filled with loneliness and suffering like Tchaikovsky.

And then you have Tchaikovsky playing over Liz and Paige's conversation about honeypotting, where Liz is deliberately preventing Paige from immersing herself in the realities of the espionage game, refusing to "draw the dark parts" of the world her daughter is entering. So it will never really be Paige's world.

And in that way it echoes the other storylines in the episode, which are also about the danger of these half-hearted connections. You have to be all the way in, together, or your counterintelligence ops are going to fall apart, your travel agency's clients are going to leave you, and you and your wife and going to drift apart.

 

This is a really good post. You do have to be all in. Emotionally, physically, mentally or things fall apart. That is reflected in every story they're telling right now.

Paige isn't all in. She really can't be. She doesn't know exactly what she's getting into because Elizabeth isn't telling her. That aside, I don't feel like Paige is fully committed to this anyway. I think she wants to be. Elizabeth and Claudia want her to be. But- is she?

I feel like every other spy-regardless of whether they were a trainee, a long-term spy or someone P or E pulled in via manipulation clearly understood the dangers and consequences inherent in what they were doing. I don't think Paige gets how serious this is. I can't put my finger on why I feel like she doesn't, but I do. And she should. Elizabeth has left relevant information out, but I think she should know that. It's pretty obvious. Maybe the General's death will bring home the reality of this to her. I don't know.

I'm not sure, but maybe part of the problem is her training sessions with her mom. They feel like an attempt at bonding and an attempt at training at the same time. But, it's not one or the other. And neither is fully successful. I don't feel like Paige and Elizabeth are really bonding. How can they be? Elizabeth is lying to her about the realities of spy work. Her training faces the same problem; Elizabeth isn't being honest about her mistakes or telling her everything she needs to know about spying.

Paige felt more committed to and passionate about Christianity, as fast as she embraced it, than she does to this. I'm not sure if it's her lack of knowledge about spying that's the issue. It feels like she's dabbling or engaging in a research project. It doesn't feel like she's committed to this for life. To me, this is a way of feeling like she's doing something important (We know she likes some of what Marx said.) and a way of bonding with her mother/being like her. But, I don't think that's enough. Not enough to sustain a life-long commitment to something as dangerous and stressful as spying.

Elizabeth, Gregory, Claudia are idealogues/extremists;  Philip, William, Oleg, Arkady, maybe Gabriel are motivated for the good of their people, Hans wanted to end apartheid in South Africa, Lucia also wanted a better country and had real reasons for hating the U.S. Martha was motivated by love and loneliness. (Others spied for money or because of blackmail.) 

I don't get that level of passion out of Paige- in some way. If I'm supposed to, then the actress and writers haven't conveyed it. I think there's an attempt to instill it in her, but I don't think it's there. And-really- the fate of Russia will never be personal to Paige the way it is to every other born Russian. It can't be. She can like Russian TV, food, stories, etc, but it won't be that personal. Paige doesn't hate the US, I wouldn't say she's a True Believer in Marxism, she can't be that passionate about Russia-though she can be taught to embrace parts of her family's culture. So, what is supposed to drive her into making this a lifelong vocation? This is a hard world to live in. Something has to motivate you. Something big. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Erin9

[Ellaria]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth is a trained professional, and that training included the ability to work on no, or little sleep.  If she couldn't do that, they would have never continued training her for a job as important as this.  She's not going to mix up wigs or glasses. 

Honestly...

I wasn't being serious about mixing up wigs and glasses. There is such little humor in this show and in discussion about it.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Honestly...

I wasn't being serious about mixing up wigs and glasses. There is such little humor in this show and in discussion about it.

Sorry!

I wasn't as snippy as that wording could have implied, but yes, I missed the humor too.

Maybe I turned into Elizabeth for a few moments there?

;)

The reason I'm encouraged a bit by this season so far?  I think they are making it perfectly clear that

• Paige will never be committed to this like Granny and Mom.
• Paige is not getting good training, let alone any truth from Mom.
• Paige simply isn't good at being a spy, after more than 3 years, she can't even master basics.
• Elizabeth continues to lie to herself, not just Paige, about all of the above.

I wanted to say something about Granny listening only to that music after the war.  I thought that was a nice touch.  After grief. shock, pain, or when I feel despair?  I've, several times, just needed to go read Jane Austen, once I reread every single book, one after another.  It feels like civility and sense returning immersing myself in her worlds.  So I completely understood and sympathized with Granny about that.  For her?  "It was all I could listen to."  I got that.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Umbelina

[SusanSunflower]

In the same vein, I'm not sure that Paige saw or registered Elizabeth's gun in the last episode, likely the gore blotted out everything else, but it made me wonder if Paige even knows that Elizabeth is often armed?  that being a spy of her mother's level really is *that* dangerous?  when will Paige begin arms training? 

Seeing her mother covered with gore may well have traumatized Paige in ways  -- we regular viewers -- don't expect because we've seen so much murder and gore on this show, by Elizabeth ... but, Paige hasn't (except for that knifing of the bad-guy outside the food pantry).  Paige is likely to demand some answers ... or maybe just "want to talk about it" ... next episode should be "interesting" given how burnt out and avoidant Elizabeth is. 

[Erin9]

13 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

I really miss Philip and Elizabeth working together.  It has the feeling, at least to me, of one of those very successful tv shows that has a spin off with some of the characters and they're doing different things now.  They are the "same" but everything is different.   

I really do too. They worked very well together, and it was always interesting to watch. Philip not being there- well something is missing. But I think we're supposed to see it that way, too. Elizabeth misses Philip being there, and he misses her. She needs him to be successful. She's making mistakes with Paige and with her assignments. 

I'm ready for Philip to do something. And get a better idea where his head as it. I know there's only so much that can be done. He's out of official spying right now. He's actually more limited than Elizabeth in his ability to talk about what's bothering him. But, hopefully next week, we'll get more. I DO think his conversation with Henry hi-lights that he knows he has responsibilities that need his personal involvement-both in the travel agency and in spying. 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Tighthead said:

I fail to see any urgency in what you wrote. They would care about it, but I fail so see any urgency or importance in regard to the Cold War. It was settling a 40 year old matter.  Why two such valuable assets would be risked and strained to carry out the mission is beyond me. 

Well, yes, because you're basing it on what you consider urgent even though the characters on the show did it. To you it's settling a 40 year old matter that has nothing to do with the Cold War so who cares? I'm telling you why imo it's perfectly believable that the USSR might care very very deeply about it. If somebody found out that the guy who murdered their child 40 years ago was living it up in Beverly Hills they might consider it urgent to go kill him while their neighbor thinks they should just get over it and move on with their life. It's their trauma.

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

We know why Elizabeth is doing so many jobs right now.  They've lost several of their embedded spies in that area, Philip, William, that murdered by their kid father and mother, even Gabe is gone. 

And the meeting with the General isn't even an official job. She's now working for people who are not her boss as well.

10 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Everything about Paige Jennings: Teenage Spy just reinforces my belief that the showrunners never really had this planned out as tightly as they claimed. Personally, I found her internal struggles at coping with the awareness of her parents' real occupation vs. Paige's own instinctive spiritual leanings far more compelling, and believable.

 

29 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Broken record:  Paige does not have the depth of commitment to bounce back from failure or for the centre to reasonably expect she will follow an order she dislikes (honey trap for instance) ... I can imagine Paige questioning and/or trying to bargain her way out of the latter and being a zombie (deeply traumatized) if someone she knew got killed.

 

7 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

So, what is supposed to drive her into making this a lifelong vocation? This is a hard world to live in. Something has to motivate you. Something big. 

Totally agree with all these posts and I just really hope the show is intentionally make that the story because it honestly seems like where the drama is. There's nothing particularly dramatic in the way this show is dramatic about Paige becoming a great spy. What's more, the show has devoted zero time to explaining how she could ever really be committed to this. What they have put time into is Paige wanting as much of her mother's attention as she can get, and liking to get the attention of leaders like Pastor Tim and now her mom. That's what we're seeing play out. We got 5 seasons of Paige's slowly changing attitudes about her parents and Pastor Tim and lying and Christianity. Then when it comes to the thing that's supposed to be swallowing her life whole there's nothing. Instead it's all just about "this life" and being part of it--with her mom.

Even with the question about sex. As was said above, if Paige was really all in she'd have accepted that sex is something you'd use--why wouldn't it be? There's plenty of evidence of this available to her. But instead the scene is about asking her mom about sex and Elizabeth responding like a mom, shielding her from the ugliest of it but also trying to give her some advice about life. Then there's the special sessions Paige gets to create bonding moments with Mom and Grandma about Russia. She's the most special of recruits.

Seems like the drama lies just where it always did--in Elizabeth needing her children to be exactly like her (or else rather puzzling distant acquaintances) and Paige feeling the need to be like Elizabeth. Where's the drama if that all works out because Paige really is just like her? I mean, we know she's like her already in all the ways she's already been like her that got her where she is now. She's now literally trying to make herself into her mother. Doesn't it only make sense to explore the obvious limits of that? Like we started the show with Elizabeth concerned that as an American Paige would never have access to strength because strength comes through the Cause. Now she's gotten to introduce her to the Cause and make her not American--and Paige is up for that. Seems to me that original problems should wind up smacking her in the face again. Guess what? Her experience growing actually does make her different than you. She's American. There's an assumption of personal freedom and importance that goes with that that you can not erase. Deal with it.

This could also be happening with Philip and Henry the same way. Philip gets along with Henry great, but Philip isn't really American. He's hiding a big part of who he is. Hockey and travel agenting actually aren't the things that drive him. He's bonded with Henry anyway by just sticking to the fiction, but he should hit the limits of that too. Seeing there's no substitute for the personal touch with clients isn't actually exactly the same thing as deciding you do need to risk your life and your soul for your partner and your country because that's who you are.

It goes back to the roots of the show that are right there in the pilot. Elizabeth wants to believe that she's exactly the same girl who got recruited by the KGB, that her cover is just a cover and can be tossed away even if they're kids. Like once they know the truth they'll be the kids she was. She's fooling herself. She's grown. But Philip is also fooling himself when he thinks he can just disappear into his Philip Jennings persona. Not only because his crimes follow him, but because he actually is that same boy who got recruited by the KGB. He, too, has grown and changed, but he is still himself.

It's seems significant there, actually, that last season he seemed to be trying to integrate by having the instinct to go back to Russia, get married in Russian, think about his Russian family. That didn't work, so he's now maybe just deciding to be American.

[Tighthead]

Urgent means it can’t wait. 

If you are prioritizing missions, it has to rank low. 

I am basing it on what I consider to be objective and logical. You seem to be basing it on emotions. 

Quote me specifically where I said the USSR wouldn’t care, because you keep telling me I don’t understand.  

[SusanSunflower]

One of the bitchy things about the 3 year gap is we don't know what Paige has witnessed or been told or done ... and since she appears largely unnaturally unchanged (except for the hair cut and some vague "self confidence") I realized I was thinking that she had just been following Elizabeth around like a puppy (to be guarded, because puppies like babies do dumb things!!! )  

Anyone remember anything to suggest, for instance that Paige is taking Tae Qwan Do at the local center, spending regular sessions at the shooting range, maybe taking some defensive driving course -- all available and not "suspicious" for amateurs with money -- or -- is the awesome Centre somehow full of trainers (despite the criminal shortage of trained operatives).  

Elizabeth didn't want or need a "wet clean up" for the food pantry guy (afaict), and probably didn't call for one for sailor ... Will she request the Centre get rid of the evidence of this last disaster?  Will Paige check the newspaper so see if "a body was found"?  and wonder (and question) )when there's no mention or feel fear if it was ...  Will she indiscreetly go to Phillip with her questions and upset?? (I don't think she's under a gag wrt to her dad).  Could cleaning up after the latest dead guy pull Philip back into the game (seems possible and also likely to exacerbate tensions with E.) ... don't kow. 

[Umbelina]

That's kind of interesting really.

Calling for a clean up at the General's murder?  Maybe, since any decent homicide investigator would see signs of the struggle and note that two bullets were fired.  Considering the violence of it?  They might also find a few wig hairs.

The Sailor though?  Elizabeth can't.  She hasn't told the KGB she killed him.  She's got to just be hoping for the best, that it looked like a mugging. Now if Paige tells Granny that she gave her ID to the guy but mommy said "no worries, you did GREAT!" then perhaps Granny will ask Elizabeth and find out her star spy lied to her? 

The General at least should make the news. 

Two military guys killed fairly near each other in a short time span should bring a lot of heat, will it?

ETA

WAIT!

The General wasn't a Directorate S operation, so I don't think Elizabeth CAN call anyone for a clean up on that one, right?

Edited April 7, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, Tighthead said:

I am basing it on what I consider to be objective and logical. You seem to be basing it on emotions. 

Yes, that is absolutely what I'm basing it on. She's a Soviet who took part in Nazi firing squads. People who helped the Nazis during the occupation is a very emotional matter for many Soviets. That's also why Elizabeth was so shocked at Philip not being able to pull the trigger. He had to be burnt out to waver on this, the most noble of missions. Emotions are often a far greater motivation. Plenty of examples of that in history--including Russian history!

11 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Elizabeth didn't want or need a "wet clean up" for the food pantry guy (afaict), and probably didn't call for one for sailor

Maybe she'll just leave him as an assumed suicide. I guess it depends on whether they want to introduce Paige to the disappearing act stuff. I wonder if they'll be a more serious talk about dropping your cover and your position with no plan when you hear a gun go off.

13 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

and since she appears largely unnaturally unchanged (except for the hair cut and some vague "self confidence")

She dresses better and leans casually against walls now.

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, chick binewski said:

I have forgotten much of S5 but I keep thinking they will bring her back this season. Her father got a promotion and I think something was mentioned about Phillip sticking with her even if he left his spy job? Also, she'll be considered legally able to consent to a relationship so...no - yeah, it's still a whole lot of ew.

Hell, maybe they'll have Paige take her on and create a spinoff called YA CIA. Unfortunately they'd probably get each other killed during the first episode.

I kept waiting for one of the kids Phil was getting high to smash the family wagon into the garage door at home, prompting Liz to stab out the entire Junior Prom, before the adolescent class enemies could drop a dime on them.

[Umbelina]

The need for urgency on the woman who worked for the Nazi's (understandable and forced in my opinion) was simply this: 

They had been looking for her since the forties.  She was good at hiding.  Once they finally thought they had found her, they needed to be sure, and then kill her before she escaped again.

[SusanSunflower]

I think the sailor as mugging is going to feel hinky to investigators.  I think this death in the park is also, except even more so with all the evidence of a struggle and so much gore splatter possibly suggesting he didn't just sit down, stick a gun under his chin and blow his brains out.  If it turns out he was leaving the next day for a long-planned vacation in Hawaii, double.  Even if they do a "clean up" he will still be missing (maybe someone will care) 

(With the sailor, I didn't think E. would have, but under different circumstances "clean up crew" might be able to make it look more credibly like a mugging ... like if the body had been found in a parked car with evidence pointing to a possible female suspect -- but again, whatever -- they would be extensively canvassing the area for witnesses -- red alert) 

eta: Maybe next week, Paige can ask if he Elizabeth sometimes uses violence "on the job", y'know besides self-defense  ..... heh

Edited April 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think this death in the park is also, except even more so with all the evidence of a struggle and so much gore splatter possibly suggesting he didn't just sit down, stick a gun under his chin and blow his brains out.  If it turns out he was leaving the next day for a long-planned vacation in Hawaii, double.  Even if they do a "clean up" he will still be missing (maybe someone will care) 

Maybe the real question is how happily Paige accepts the explanation that the guy killed himself if that's what she's told. Because she has no more reason to believe that then the police. Elizabeth had very obviously murdered him and there was more than one shot, right? If Paige buys that it was a suicide it would show her being as gullible as always--and as unobservant as always as well.

Edited April 7, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Elizabeth can't call for a clean up for either one of them.

Directorate S, the only contacts she has for things like this?  Don't know about either one.  One, she's lying about, and the second, isn't even their operation.

[Bannon]

Oh, Killer Liz will just tell Paige it was in self defense, that the target pulled the gun on her. Paige probably won't be curious enough to really inquire as to why he was motivated to do so, after, Liz says he was an Enemy to the Cause.

[jjj]

Quote

I got the feeling Elizabeth might not have wanted any accidental OD's to interfere with her spying. And when I heard her tell Claudia, "NOW she has to suffer terrible pain," it seemed she may have subbed some placebos in for the morphine to keep Glenn from offing her before the summit is over.

 

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

That's the part I really don't understand.  WHAT did Elizabeth mean by that statement?  Also, you could be right.

 

Here is what is all means; and I was so confused that I went back to sort it out.  Oddly, I will attribute some compassion to Elizabeth here in addition to pragmatism, but bear with me. 

(1) Erica (artist) needs more and more morphine to control pain, and it will get to a point where it will not work anymore.  The husband (and maybe other health care workers) have no problem giving Erica the morphine ahead of the schedule to stay on top of the pain.  But the more she uses, the more she needs, and she is on a path to a dose that will put her into a coma or kill her.

(2) Separately, the husband is storing little bits of morphine to create a fatal dose when Erica decides she cannot continue.  Elizabeth's job was to find out about this and make sure they do not have that way of killing her, because Elizabeth's job is to keep Erica alive until the summit. The flaw in this plan (Flaw No. 1) is that they could do this with a brand new full prescription of morphine.  Clearly, there are no controls over the husband's access to the morphine, as we saw.  

(3) Elizabeth was actually trying to keep the doses on schedule for two reasons:  (A) they need to keep the pain under control so Erica will not do the fatal overdose and (B) Elizabeth actually does not want her to suffer (this is a whiff of compassion from Elizabeth) while Elizabeth helps keep her alive.  But Elizabeth can't control what the husband or other health care workers will do when Elizabeth is not there.  

(4) Back talking to Claudia, Elizabeth is telling her that "now she will really suffer", because the husband (and maybe other health care workers) are making the doses ultimately less effective by giving them more frequently; meanwhile, Elizabeth will keep Erica alive, but now suffering.  So, weirdly, Elizabeth must keep her alive, but wanted her to suffer as little as possible; and than cannot happen once the morphine tolerance is built up.  Erica will feel better in the short run, but by the time of the summit, the morphine will not be providing pain control.  Claudia was actually being dismissive:  "you only have to keep her alive until the summit" (then we let her die)

(5) The big flaw in this (Flaw No. 2) is that there must be so many health care workers involved, and some temp workers thrown in as well, so Elizabeth has no control over who gives doses on what schedule, or if someone (including Erica) just decides to swallow an entire bottle of morphine when the next prescription is filled.

ETA:  But you know, if the KGB has enough pull to get Elizabeth hired as a home nurse, you'd think they would make sure all the workers were KGB.  It is useless to have one person there a few hours a day, with no control over everyone else dealing with the medication.  However, we all know the KGB only has Elizabeth to cover so many jobs!  (She could do a "Kind Hearts and Coronets" scenario, showing up as four different health care workers with different wigs and eye color and moles!  And one of the disguises would be as a male nurse.)  

Edited April 7, 2018 by jjj

[Umbelina]

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Oh, Killer Liz will just tell Paige it was in self defense, that the target pulled the gun on her. Paige probably won't be curious enough to really inquire as to why he was motivated to do so, after, Liz says he was an Enemy to the Cause.

Well, that is exactly what happened, it was self defense.

Paige is obviously not "read in" to  operations, that's why Liz had her leave so she could talk to Granny alone.  I don't think even Paige thinks she is already entitled to know every operation's details.

[SusanSunflower]

If I had been Paige and witnessed my mother kill someone and leave their body in the street, I would be looking for a story (be it ever so tiny) in the newspaper and/or in the scuttlebutt at the food pantry ... apparently (we don't know) there was none  or Paige didn't care and/or hear anything ... ever. 

The sailor/mugging is hinky for a lot of reasons.  Again (although we don't know how long ago it was -- or whose doing the surveillance these days) nothing to rouse Paige's curiosity unless she actually reads the paper and watches the news and realizes the location is ... and oh, the photo looks like that guy ... (we've gotten no explanation either way) 

The body in the park should get some media attention because of who he was ... the cops will be able to tell there was a struggle meaning another person present and, again, just hinky -- even if it looks like suicide -- (assuming they find the body as E. left it.)  If the crew vanish the evidence, a not-even-brilliant Paige might be surprised there was nothing ... assuming she's not still catatonic and babbling. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Directorate S, the only contacts she has for things like this?  Don't know about either one.  One, she's lying about, and the second, isn't even their operation.

Claudia does actually know about this one. She doesn't know about the larger coup and the people giving the order, but she did know exactly what Elizabeth was going there to get etc. So Elizabeth could call Claudia for a clean-up if that's possible. Or she could do it herself. I thought we saw Marilyn in the park too, in which case she would help the same way she seemed to at least be a witness to what happened to the bug guy when Elizabeth and Philip were getting rid of him.

With the General Paige would probably totally accept Elizabeth as the hero of the situation who was ambushed if Elizabeth told her it was self-defense. But since the guy technically shot himself in the face with Elizabeth's help I'm not yet sure she won't try to sell it as a suicide. Especially since it was noted that even some viewers saw it as a suicide even though they would know there was no reason for that guy to kill himself in that moment and that he was just trying to kill Elizabeth moments before.

[Umbelina]

I thought the guy in Mexico ORDERED her to not tell anyone at Directorate S?  Just to get the doohickey and contact him when she had it?

Am I mixing up stories here?  I could be, didn't get much sleep...  This is the op the guy in Mexico gave her, right?  He's KGB, but not in that division.

Claudia is most definitely Directorate S.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, I hate this morphine/private nurse thread ... morphine does not work that way and being a registered nurse is not really something you can fake ... rather insulting to nurses, imho. 

reminds me:  How soon (or far away) is this summit?  Weeks, months, next year? 

also, Yes, that was my impression ... and that E was inexplicably given no cover story to feed Claudia. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I thought the guy in Mexico ORDERED her to not tell anyone at Directorate S?  Just to get the doohickey and contact him when she had it?

The guy in Mexico told her about the larger issue and specifically told her she's supposed to find out if Gorbachev is going to try to trade Dead Hand. That is what she's not allowed to tell Directorate S and therefore Claudia. This op with the General came straight from Claudia. She told Elizabeth that she was supposed to go to this General that they'd worked with before and get a sample of this doohickey. Claudia told her that she (Claudia) was told that this was related to the thing Elizabeth went to in Mexico City, iow, that this was part of that same plot, but that she (Claudia) was not supposed to ask further what that meant.

So Claudia remains out of the loop on the plot to potentially get rid of Gorbachev but she does know that Elizabeth was trying to steal a sample of this weaponry from the US. Which Claudia would be onboard with, of course, because she's totally of the same mindset as the guys represented in Mexico City. To her this probably seems like every day stuff--of course they're trying to steal stuff from behind the Americans' backs during the summit because the Americans are big cheaters.

Quote

yes, I hate this morphine/private nurse thread ... morphine does not work that way and being a registered nurse is not really something you can fake ... rather insulting to nurses, imho. 

Yeah, seriously. So she just has the knowledge to do that now? Unlikely. But I do find it amusing listening to us all try to work out that plot and the one Umbelina and I were just talking about. So complicated!

Edited April 7, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

okay, that make better (if convoluted) sense ... does the dohicky even relate to deadhand or is it just a mcGuffin (some ridiculous reason characters do something) 

[Umbelina]

So the Mexico guy isn't just recruiting Elizabeth against Arkady, but also Claudia, in a much less drastic way?  Claudia is now also taking orders that by-pass her division head?  (oh my, and ummm, WOW?) 

Thanks for the rest of the details @sistermagpie!  You're great.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Umbelina

[jjj]

I don't know how many episodes Matthew will be directing this season, but I expect he will not be directing episodes where he has a lot to do -- there was very little Philip in this episode, and mainly just limited travel stuff.  

I have to believe these scenes of vague dissatisfaction with the travel agency will lead him back to spy craft, rather than working harder at the agency. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by jjj

[jjj]

19 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

yes, I hate this morphine/private nurse thread ... morphine does not work that way and being a registered nurse is not really something you can fake ... rather insulting to nurses, imho. 

reminds me:  How soon (or far away) is this summit?  Weeks, months, next year? 

 

This week was early October (baseball playoff actual game broadcast was playing), and the summit is December 8-10, so a little over eight weeks to go.  It will be interesting if this season is in "real time", following week by week. 

(Pssst:  Hey, Erica's husband, you should put a bet on the Minnesota Twins!)  

Edited April 7, 2018 by jjj