S06.E02: Tchaikovsky

[zibnchy]

On 4/5/2018 at 10:25 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

Where was Hospice back then?  I thought they didn't worry about addiction in terminally ill patients who are near death.  

Just an aside -- in 1986 my mother was dying of cancer in a shitty little hospital in the midwest. One night she was crying for pain meds and I asked the nurse to give her something and the reply was that she (the nurse) couldn't give her any because she (my mother) might become addicted. It was not the nurse's fault, it was a policy she was following like the sheep she was BUT I badly wanted to punch her in the face.

[RedHawk]

18 hours ago, zibnchy said:

Just an aside -- in 1986 my mother was dying of cancer in a shitty little hospital in the midwest. One night she was crying for pain meds and I asked the nurse to give her something and the reply was that she (the nurse) couldn't give her any because she (my mother) might become addicted. It was not the nurse's fault, it was a policy she was following like the sheep she was BUT I badly wanted to punch her in the face.

Very similar to a scene in the '80s film "Terms of Endearment", where Shirley MacLaine screamed the place down to make them give her daughter pain meds.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. 

[Anela]

On 4/4/2018 at 11:58 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

It’s frightening. She can’t take a moment to appreciate art or to indulge a dying woman’s. She is so single-focused that there is little left in her that is relatable.

 

Unless she's talking about killing someone. Then she knows exactly what to say. Was she genuinely wanting to help, or would that be something she holds over his head for information?

[smartymarty]

14 hours ago, Anela said:

or would that be something she holds over his head for information?

My assumption is that she would hold it over him for information. "He killed his wife!"

But Elizabeth certainly seemed genuine in wanting to help him. That may be because Elizabeth is as good an actor as Keri Russell is. Or stated another way, we got Keri Russell acting like a concerned hospice nurse rather than Keri Russell acting as Elizabeth acting as a concerned hospice nurse.

Edited April 13, 2018 by smartymarty
thought of something else

[John Potts]

Hmmm. I'm sure Elizabeth is doing Paige any favours by simultaneously being a mother and Training Officer to Paige. It's natural to want your children to not to have to do all the "regrettable" things that you've had to do (OK, I'd imagine most parents lives don't involve strangers that they have to seduce and/or murder...) but by pretending they don't exist, she's not preparing her for the realities of the job. It would have been better (in my expert opinion as a spymaster*, obviously!) to have answered the "Do spies use sex to complete their missions?" question by (more) honestly answering, "It does happen, if the mission is critical enough," without saying, "You kidding? It's our first option in subverting a mark!" Probably better to realise that she is entering a dangerous game before she sees her mother's face spattered with blood and brains, and she might realise that screaming out "MOM!" is a bad idea.

On ‎05‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:02 AM, suomi said:

Man, as soon as E dropped to her knees I thought "OK, he's a goner."

I actually thought Paige was going to turn up to either kill him or provide the distraction that Elizabeth needed to do so. And in either case, Elizabeth would scold her for breaking protocol because she needs to learn the mission is more important than the agent (even when - possibly especially when - you are the agent).

On ‎05‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:02 AM, SusanSunflower said:

I thought Nurse Elizabeth was anxious that the patient did not go gently into that good night before the summit .... because that would complicate the mission by ending her pretext for being in that house

That was my read on it. I think she (on a human level, as she discussed with Claudia) would prefer to just dose her up with morphine, but needs a reason to stay in the house. She might be erring on the side of short dosing her to keep her alive, but I don't think it's more than that. But her concerns could be perfectly genuine: after all, if she dies of a morphine overdose, the might be a murder investigation with the victim's carer as one of the suspects, which even non spies would want to avoid (and a real nurse, depending on who they're working for, might get fired for overuse of drugs if they're using too much morphine). And a "suspicious" death would be doubly dangerous for Elizabeth.

On ‎05‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 3:47 PM, attica said:

I super liked that the avuncular State Guide Guy was paying enough attention to notice which of his group had gone AWOL.

Loved that! Too often, shows portray their protagonists as the only competent ones around, but it was good to see that even a bit player actually took security seriously enough to notice one of his tour party had gone missing.

On ‎05‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:20 PM, SusanSunflower said:

She should probably be getting some formal education/deep indoctrination from the KGB (either directly or through a front) in history, foreign affairs and likely a language (if she not already taking that intensively in college).  Russian might be helpful and believable depending on what she's studying/majoring in college.

Come to that, what does the CIA/State Department look for in its recruits? Presumably that should be easy
 for the KGB to discover and steer Paige towards those subjects/activities.

On ‎05‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 7:01 PM, mwell345 said:

has the show ever made it clear WHY Paige is now a Spy In Training?

Claudia revealed it in the S2 Finale (IIRC). Unlike Phillip & Elizabeth, whose cover probably couldn't stand up to intense scrutiny required for (eg) entry into the CIA, Paige really is an American citizen. Her "cover" is impeccable because it is the truth.

On ‎05‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:48 PM, Bannon said:

the KGB's greatest triumphs came not via sophisticated recruitment, but rather when traitorous Americans would walk into Soviet embassies or consulates without prompting

It reminds me of how computing services try to come up with ever more sophisticated technological strategies for defeating hackers, when the simplest way to get into systems is to call somebody there up and say, "This is Tech Support, we have a problem with your login - could you confirm your Username and Password?" which often works, no matter how many times people are told never to do this. Similarly, clever strategies for extracting information may well be inferior to assuming people can be petty or dumb!

On ‎05‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 7:23 PM, SusanSunflower said:

that "personal touch" is often undervalued, particularly when things are going well ... these days' they've made "the personal touch" and follow-up into an secondary industry

Personally, I hate all this "trying to engage me as an individual". I know the person I'm talking to could not care less whether I "have a nice day" (or not), because I've done jobs like that. Give me a computer that gets straight to the point every time!

* But shhh! Don't tell anyone else!

[kay1864]

Re that cafeteria scene that was moved outside:  how was E to get out after lunch?  It looked like people were strolling by in the background, so are we to infer that the State Department isn't fenced off?  If so, she could just stroll back to her car--but what does that say about their security?  Anyone could gain access via the back door to the cafeteria.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, John Potts said:

But her concerns could be perfectly genuine: after all, if she dies of a morphine overdose, the might be a murder investigation with the victim's carer as one of the suspects, which even non spies would want to avoid (and a real nurse, depending on who they're working for, might get fired for overuse of drugs if they're using too much morphine). And a "suspicious" death would be doubly dangerous for Elizabeth.

I don't know...it seems unlikely that somebody would worry about the murder of a woman who was on her deathbed, especially when there's no profit involved. 

3 hours ago, John Potts said:

Claudia revealed it in the S2 Finale (IIRC). Unlike Phillip & Elizabeth, whose cover probably couldn't stand up to intense scrutiny required for (eg) entry into the CIA, Paige really is an American citizen. Her "cover" is impeccable because it is the truth.

On 4/5/2018 at 11:48 AM, Bannon said:

I think they mean they don't understand why Paige wants to do this, not why the Centre would like her to do it.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Re that cafeteria scene that was moved outside:  how was E to get out after lunch?  It looked like people were strolling by in the background, so are we to infer that the State Department isn't fenced off?  If so, she could just stroll back to her car--but what does that say about their security?  Anyone could gain access via the back door to the cafeteria.

Security never really cares about people LEAVING.  Have you ever had to take off your shoes and have your bags searched when leaving an airport?  At that point, once you are in?  They rightly assume you've already been cleared.

However if the tour leader guy had been suspicious enough, he could have notified someone.  Even then though?  She was pretending to wipe her nose, etc.  so it would be logical to assume she didn't feel well and had already left.

[RedHawk]

On 4/16/2018 at 5:37 PM, Umbelina said:

Security never really cares about people LEAVING.  Have you ever had to take off your shoes and have your bags searched when leaving an airport?  At that point, once you are in?  They rightly assume you've already been cleared.

However if the tour leader guy had been suspicious enough, he could have notified someone.  Even then though?  She was pretending to wipe her nose, etc.  so it would be logical to assume she didn't feel well and had already left.

He did notify someone. Elizabeth led they guy outside because security was looking for a woman who had left the tour group.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, once you as a civilian exit, you cannot return back into the building without being re-screened.  Employees and others who might take out sensitive documents, etc. likely routinely have to open their briefcases, etc. on exiting. 

[kay1864]

Ah.  So likely she made an excuse to stay outside longer (easy since he had to back within half an hour), and then just walked to her car.

[Shades of Scarlet]

On 05/04/2018 at 5:33 AM, benteen said:

Although it ended with a bang, I found this episode dull.  Especially compared with last week.  This is what's called methodically paced and the show shouldn't be taking its leisurely time this season.  Especially after last season's victory tour when they patted themselves on the back for 13 episodes.

Man, Elizabeth is really slipping.  It's not a surprise considering all the assignments she has going on at the same time, on top of training her inept daughter as a spy.  I don't know how the FBI on this show, inept as they are, don't start noticing that members of the military have been killed the past two weeks and that there's a pattern. 

My eyes just about rolled to the back of my head when Elizabeth feigned ignorance with Paige on the idea of spies using sex to get what they need.  Once again, Elizabeth is outright lying to Paige or concealing information from her.  Thankfully, Paige isn't too bright and isn't going to ask too many questions.

Speaking of Paige....maybe we should borrow something from the Arrow boards when it comes to her.  For many episodes of that show, posters would do a thread explaining how one of the characters failed as a hero/vigilante.  Maybe someone should start doing a How many times Paige failed as a spy in this episode post.  I counted two tonight, getting those books about espionage from the book store and breaking her assignment to see what happened with Elizabeth (which was completely understandable to be sure).  Paige is not cut out for this, particularly being a field agent (she also is way too small and it's very noticeable).

While it's nice to see Philip as an actual travel agent, it doesn't exactly make for enthralling television.

Good lord, I thought that Stan was loose-lipped but he's got nothing on the old State Department official who has a clear crush on Elizabeth.

I do remember that during this time, there were questions about Reagan's mental faculties but he quickly put that talk to rest.

No, actually, no one should borrow anything from the Arrow board here.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎9‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 7:43 AM, Dev F said:

After all, when Claudia talks up Tchaikovsky to Paige, she's not just talking about art or music; she's trying to sell her on the very Russian idea of shared suffering as inspiring and ennobling. "He's one of Russia's greatest composers. His mother died when he was young, and his life was full of loneliness. . . . For a long time after the War, it was the only music I could listen to." In other words, Tchaikovsky's life was hard, and this is what made him great. And when my life was at its most difficult, the one thing that kept me going was his example of the beauty that comes from the darkest places.

But classical Russian literature and art don't have the same values as Soviet ones, indeed they are in many points just opposite. Therefore I found very funny that Claudia loved Tchaikovski, not some Soviet composer, or Red Army Choir. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎11‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 7:05 AM, Umbelina said:

Well, except the USSR was perfectly fine with sitting out the war completely and letting all the capitalists destroy and bankrupt each other.  Stalin signed an agreement with Hitler that not only divvied up Poland, but each promised not to go to war with the other.  Of course Claudia could certainly leave that part out, and probably would, it's not like Paige would do her own research anyway.

Hitler broke that pact and sneak-attacked Russia, which was partially unprepared for war at that point, because Stalin was sure Hitler would leave Russia alone.  Elizabeth's home town was one of the first occupied.

That said, Russia's incredible terrors and sacrifices after that, to defeat Germany, and eventually leave them crippled, probably did end the European part of the war.  Of course they also lost many more men to claim the uranium mines in East Germany, and pretty much were at odds with their allies from that moment on.

Quote

The populations of the United States and the USSR were about the same, 130,000,000, when both nations went to war within six months of each other in 1941.

The population of the USSR was about 196 millions in 1941, having annexed the eastern part of Poland, three Baltic states as well as Bessarabia and Bukovina from Romania.

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The population of the USSR was about 196 millions in 1941, having annexed the eastern part of Poland, three Baltic states as well as Bessarabia and Bukovina from Romania.

That still is a very similar number.  The entire point was that with about the same number of people in each country, Soviet WWII losses were astronomical compared to a very few USA losses.  That's just people too, not damage to countries, or the economic impact of war.  The USA thrived economically with WWII, while the USSR was devastated economically as well.

[vavera4ka]

Something I noticed, that I'm not sure if it was intentional or whether I'm just overthinking it.

The story with the marriage of a hockey player and TASS woman kinda parallels the story of Lyudmila from Moscow Doesn't Believe in Tears that was featured in the first epi. Happy marriage to a famous hockey player who then started drinking and everything fell apart. granted it's  more or less standard story, but it wasn't too far removed from mentioning the movie that I couldn't help noticing.

Yes, I have watched that movie way too many times lol