Season Four: Speculation WITH Spoilers

[Peace 47]

5 minutes ago, fourPLUSseven said:

I'm going out on a big limb here: Mary's not dead. In the video, she kept saying 'if I'm dead.' Love all the theories. Anything is possible.

I'm coming around on this.  Steven Moffat said in the EW interview that I posted in the episode thread that Mary is definitely and absolutely dead, but people are pointing out weird episode things or parallels to past episodes that might indicate that things did not happen as they were presented to us (just like Sherlock warned us at the start of this episode when we saw doctored footage of the Magnussen shooting)  That would be interesting and make me feel guilty for ragging on the episode so hard and mercilessly, lol.

Amanda was definitely photographed filming the next episode, "The Lying Detective," so she's ostensibly not done with the show.  She was wearing the outfit in which Mary "died," though, and so I assumed that she was going to be an hallucination of Sherlock's since he is apparently going to be sick or poisoned.  Amanda also posted on her Twitter, though, a photo of her in a red-ish wig that we haven't seen yet, so maybe the disguises aren't done because Mary is not done.

People on Tumblr have pointed out that in "His Last Vow," Sherlock was shot in almost the same place Mary was, but their wounds are totally different.  Mind palace Molly said in HLV that this wasn't the movies, and there wasn't a big spurt of blood where you going flying back after being shot, but that's kind of what happened to Mary, especially with the big blood squib.  But that could just be because of a different director, different script, etc.  Also, there was a set picture that had a post-it note or something about something being relevant to John's alibi, so maybe he's done something involving Mary?  Maybe he and Mary are working together if she's good, or he and Sherlock are working together if she's bad?

Also, there are scenes in "The Six Thatchers" that are repeated within the episode.  One example is Mary and John in bed when the baby cries.  We see part of it, and then later in the episode, we see the whole of it, with John texting the woman.  The takes that they used for the two scenes are different:  Mary says slightly different words each time.  Maybe that's an editing error where they failed to swap out the right takes for the two scenes, which is my inclination, but given that at least John does seem out of character in this episode, maybe it means something?

[fourPLUSseven]

Watson indeed seemed "off". Wondering also if we'll see the season out of chron order? Love that we never know what we think we know. Quality of stories just gets better each season.

Edited January 3, 2017 by fourPLUSseven

[IWantCandy71]

I saw someone on Twitter posting a picture of Mycroft and Sherlock playing chess, with Sherlock swiping at the pieces on the board and John sitting there. I've no idea if this means Mycroft is going to be the true "big bad" or not-though some are supposing it. Had this happened at any time during the first two series, I might have balked. Now however, I don't really care. Don't want Mycroft to be the true baddie, but I also gave up on this show making much coherent, logical sense some time ago. Nothing previously between the brothers would make any sense if Sherlock were indeed Mycroft's enemy. At best, Mycroft could have been revealed to be the big bad at the end of series three. I could have somewhat gone with it even then. Like I said though, they don't seem too concerned about making sense. Mycroft has been the baddie in at least one movie version so even that won't be original. But here's the thing: would even Moftiss be so obvious as to have Ms Hudson call him a reptile, etc? It could be a bait and switch thing: everyone thinks he's the baddie and he's not. It just makes no sense to me. Yes, he's shadowy government. But that's just it: shadowy. He hasn't been guilty of anything "evil" onscreen that the viewers are aware of. So he'd be revealed in the probable last two episodes of the series as being the true mastermind? When at any time, he could have just let Sherlock die or even set him up to be arrested?

Complete stupidity if so. That's all. Good or bad however, I no longer think Mycroft is going to be killed off if indeed Mary is truly dead. Doesn't mean he won't be lead away in handcuffs.

Edited January 3, 2017 by IWantCandy71

[Peace 47]

There's a review of "The Lying Detective" that has been quoted on a reliable setlocker's Twitter as saying that Sherlock had fallen back into drug use in this episode (so not poisoned, but drug-addled), and that the episode is "self-indulgent" and "may prove divisive", probably because it sounds like it is going to be trippy and deal with reality/ unreality.  That follows from my other posts above from earlier this year about how disheveled Sherlock looks.

There's another review from Heat magazine that I saw posted on Tumblr that refers to villain Culverton Smith as "having the keys to the hospital" and echoing a real-life serial offender.  UK-based posters immediately connected that with sexual predator Jimmy Savile, which was a huge story in England and made the papers here in U.S., too.  (He was an entertainer who donated significant funds to children's hospitals but sexually abused some of the patients in a horrifying string of crimes.)

I miss the days when John and Sherlock could have an occasional giggle together in Buckingham Palace. :/  This sounds like it will be thoroughly uncomfortable and unpleasant to sit through.  I also just want the character of Sherlock to get bundled off to rehab/ a mental health hospital at this point.  He's been using since "His Last Vow" and almost killed himself with it in "The Abominable Bride."  Since Sherlock has had that recurring flashback of/ callback to Redbeard and his childhood going on 2 seasons now, I shudder to think that he may have been caught up in Culverton's misdeeds, on top of everything else that has happened to this poor boy.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Peace 47

[IWantCandy71]

Well, Sherlock isn't a boy-and I hate the way this show treats the drug addiction, anyway-I'd rather they just left it alone if they can't do it right.  But *if* Culverton Smith is going to be a child molester, will it be revealed he molested Sherlock?  That would be dark and all...and would certainly fit with being vile....but what would really be the point? Other than shock value, and to give Sherlock the chance to murder someone else?

If they do that, it just goes back to one of the problems I've always had with this show-Moffat and Gatiss writing whatever they want, and not caring that it doesn't make sense. They probably think it's original and "clever" if Sherlock is a molestation victim. And while it certainly might explain  some of his emotional constipation if the memory has been suppressed-there has never been any hint EVER, that Sherlock has any such past. To introduce it now would be nothing more than bad writing. Especially if Mycroft knew-and he probably would-and then made the comments about "sex" back in ASiB. Makes NO sense he would do that if his brother were  a molestation victim.

Same thing as making Mycroft "bad". I know Gatiss has been chomping at the bit for years to potentially make Mycroft a "bad" guy-but they've had six plus years to set it up, and Mycroft simply being "shadowy" government is not enough to justify any such swing NOW. Especially since he is one of the ONLY ones we've never seen kill or try to kill someone onscreen. I'd sooner believe Sherlock had a mental break while on drugs years ago, and created a false identity that was "evil", and Moriarty's "boss", to give his sober self crimes to solve.  That makes more sense than any of the things I have no doubt Moftiss will come up with. Considering he probably has gaps of time during his drug use that he still can't remember, I'd buy that.

Would be interesting to watch though, I won't lie-if Sherlock were molested and he remembers it wrongly as Mycroft as the molester. Would certainly explain the "reptile" comments from Ms Hudson. Or if Mycroft knew and blamed himself and did something to make Sherlock forget. THAT would be great TV because the scenes with Mark and Benedict would be awesome.

[Peace 47]

My intuition says that Mycroft won't be a bad guy, just that he will be made to look very bad for a short period of time in the finale before the whole story comes out.   Lady Smallwood trusts him, and she is both "innocent" and in a position to know him well; he's also been very protective of Sherlock and is Sherlock's confidante.  I just don't see it.  Of course, I was apparently dead wrong on my intuition that Mary would be an ultimate villain, so what do I know?  (I still can't reconcile how she told John in "His Last Vow" that John wouldn't love her anymore if he read her AGRA drive with what happened in "The Six Thatchers"--what was so bad about her?  She was practically a saint!)  

To general spoiler knowledge, there haven't been children cast for this season beyond a young Sherlock, a young girl and potentially a young Mycroft, and so I actually doubt that the storyline will involve Culverton and children, not that this makes the story less vile if he is sexually assaulting adults.  I was just worrying in my post above.

I assume that we will eventually learn of a dead or long-lost sister, that something happened to her when she and Sherlock were out playing with Redbeard, that she was thought to have died, but possibly did not, that Sherlock feels crazy guilt over her death, and that Mycroft knew of her whereabouts and didn't tell Sherlock (but for a justifiable reason). Maybe.

[IWantCandy71]

The young Holmes brothers possibly being cast gives more power to the molestation theory. But you know, most of us assumed Sherrinford was the other "brother". Just because someone had thrown that idea out there once. Maybe, just maybe, Sherrinford was a sister. Mycroft only said "the other ONE".

Edited January 5, 2017 by IWantCandy71

[oliverwendell]

Quote

 Maybe, just maybe, Sherrinford was a sister. Mycroft only said "the other ONE".

What if Sherrinford is the redhead on the bus? 

Okay, that's a crack theory. But I'm leaving it here anyway.

[ChlcGirl]

Wasn't the redhead on the bus American?  I could have sworn that she didn't have a British accent.

[SharonH58]

Ugh, I don't want another Holmes brother, but if the up theory about Sherlock being molested is true, which I think sounds interesting, maybe Mycroft covered it up.  Told Sherlock never to tell or that he was mistaken.  That would fit Mrs. Hudson's remark.   But I want Sherlock and John to get back to where they were and not the mopey cheating John.   I think Ms Bus will be tied to the new 'bad guy' whatever his name is.    I don't know why this is under spoiler and I can't get rid of it  :( 

Edited January 9, 2017 by SilverStormm
removed spoiler for you

[Peace 47]

People who attended an early screening of "The Lying Detective" today are saying that it is one of the best episodes ever, that it is a real roller coaster and that the last five minutes are quite shocking.  My hopes for the season sunk pretty low after last week, and so this news gets my hopes up again.  I tend to like Moffat-written episodes of this show the best anyway.

[oliverwendell]

I have another crack theory: there is no Redbeard the Dog. Redbeard the Dog is a trick of Sherlock's mind. Any memory we've seen of Young Sherlock and Redbeard is actually a memory of Young Sherlock and Euros.

(Okay, yes, that one is probably too crazy.)

[Peace 47]

I think that is a good potential theory, oliverwendell.  I just posted in the episode thread that I thought it was weird that the memory-altering drug plot point was dropped so unceremoniously midway through the episode, but maybe it comes up again next week as an explanation for Sherlock's compromised memories.

I just had a theory occur to me:  in "The Empty Hearse," Sherlock had a series of deductions about Mary (when he first met her) fly through his head.  "Liar" was a big one.  But also "guardian".  Was she some kind of caretaker for Eurus at any point?  It always seemed weird to me that the "guardian" deduction was never explained.

[Tardislass]

Someone on another board had a good theory. In the story The Sussex Vampire, a jealous young boy tries to kill his baby half-brother with poison after trying it out on the dog. I have no idea how old Eurus is supposed to be(older than Sherlock?) but it stands to reason that she could have done the same thing to a young Sherlock and killed his beloved Redbeard.

[IWantCandy71]

Obviously, the sister did something bad, if Mycroft has been keeping her away from Sherlock for decades. But I doubt it had anything to do with Redbeard,  unless whatever happened was so traumatic that Sherlock blocked her out- which is not likely. If he was old enough to remember Redbeard, he'd be old enough to remember the sister and what happened.

[Kostgard]

8 hours ago, Tardislass said:

Someone on another board had a good theory. In the story The Sussex Vampire, a jealous young boy tries to kill his baby half-brother with poison after trying it out on the dog. I have no idea how old Eurus is supposed to be(older than Sherlock?) but it stands to reason that she could have done the same thing to a young Sherlock and killed his beloved Redbeard.

I agree they might be borrowing from this story. 

Here is how the older brother is described in the original story:

Quote

He was a remarkable lad, pale-faced and fair-haired, with excitable light blue eyes which blazed into a sudden flame of emotion and joy as they rested upon his father. He rushed forward and threw his arms round his neck with the abandon of a loving girl.

They made a point of Euros removing her brown contacts to reveal pale blue eyes - Sherlock has pale blue eyes as well and maybe they were trying to set up that connection, but with the way they always pull from canon, this might be what they are referring to.

Watson also says this about the boy:

Quote

 The boy went off with a curious, shambling gait which told my surgical eyes that he was suffering from a weak spine.

I know she walked with a cane when she was impersonating Smith's daughter, but did she have sort of an odd gait when she was playing the therapist as well? I thought she did, but I thought she was just trying to come across as older than she actually is (and I could be remembering it wrong).

Also, if they are trying to play up the "jealous of the new, younger sibling" angle, that may explain why she expressed surprise at Sherlock being nice. Perhaps he's been built up in her mind as a little monster.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Kostgard

[oliverwendell]

Quote

Someone on another board had a good theory. In the story The Sussex Vampire, a jealous young boy tries to kill his baby half-brother with poison after trying it out on the dog. I have no idea how old Eurus is supposed to be(older than Sherlock?) but it stands to reason that she could have done the same thing to a young Sherlock and killed his beloved Redbeard.

I agree they might be borrowing from this story. 

This is an excellent theory also. However it shakes out, I'm convinced Redbeard is critical to whatever went down with Euros and Sherlock as children. I still lean toward my own crack theory (Redbeard = Euros) but the fact that there's canon out there involving murderous siblings and dogs is interesting.....!

[Tardislass]

I can actually seeing this story play out especially if Euros/Eurus is the middle child. It's natural to be jealous of a younger sibling and I get the feeling that Mom/Dad might be more indulgent to the boys. Since Mycroft is at least 10 years older than Sherlock(at least in canon) he probably didn't factor into it much. I can also see her hurting Redbeard as a means to get back at Sherlock.   

Or I could be completely off-base and it turns out she really is bonkers and as drug addled as Sherlock. The fact that Mofftis says the last episode is the craziest episode they've written does not give me hope. 

[tanita]

I think whatever happened with Eurus emotionally scared/broke Sherlock for life, maybe even is responsible for his complete inability to connect with other people before John entered his life and opened the floodgates for himself and others.

Either she did something to harm him, he couldn't emotionally reconcile with that fact and in repressing it he started to view other people as unnecessary in his life or they were so close that when she was ripped from him (maybe by Mycroft) and probably for the right reasons he has been unable to forgive him and repressed it, while the distrust of Mycroft remained.

As for Redbeard, if the theory that she tried to kill Sherlock out of jealousy, she could have poisoned say a cookie or a treat that Sherlock was supost to eat, but he ended up giving it to the dog.

[cardigirl]

Hmmm, interesting theories, but fratricide and pet murder seem excessively dark for this show.  

Edited January 10, 2017 by cardigirl

[Peace 47]

Is there any chance that Eurus isn't the real Eurus?  As in, someone has been set up to impersonate the third sibling, who may have disappeared as a child under mysterious circumstances?    I don't really think that is likely, but I thought I would just toss it out.  It sounds a little X-Files, actually, when I write it out.

I saw on a notice for "The Final Problem" that Andrew Scott was third billed for this last episode, which may mean that his part is not small.  Moffat and Gatiss have repeatedly said since S2 that Moriarty was dead.  Characters within the show have also said in 2 different episodes (TAB and TST) that Moriarty was definitely dead when the question came up.  I tended to believe that he was dead as a result.  If it is true that Moriarty is dead, and if Andrew Scott does have a big part, that would further solidify hunches that Scott is playing Moriarty's twin brother, as we speculated upthread when he was seen filming last year (bolstered by the twin references in TAB and TST).

Given all the emphasis on Moriarty and on Mary last season and this season, I find it hard to believe that both Moriarty and Mary are dead, though, you know?  They both keep coming up post mortem in a way that keeps them in all discussions about what may happen (Moriarty obviously more than Mary because she's not been dead long).  It's almost anticlimactic for this final showdown (called the freakin' "Final Problem") not to involve the "real" Moriarty, whether that is the Moriarty we once knew, Mary or Eurus.  For the first time, I do have doubt that the Moriarty we knew actually died on the roof in S2.

Edited January 10, 2017 by Peace 47

[spottedreptile]

I'm so sick of Moriarty. Nothing against the actor, but really can't we move on? He's dead. Yes I know he's popular but to resurrect him for popularity's sake is just pandering. I'd much rather the twin emphasis was about Sherlock and Eurus (at least she's a new character on the show.) 

Thoughts while rewatching the entire series:

Mycroft in the helicopter after watching Sherlock shoot Magnussen: "Oh Sherlock what did you do?" Flashback to child Sherlock looking guilty and tearful. So Sherlock did something awful as a child. 

Twins: "It's NEVER twins" etc etc. Of course it will be. 

Sherlock's always snappy replies when people call him a psychopath. "Sociopath!" Why does he have this violent reaction? Other than a distaste for being incorrectly labelled, is it because Eurus is the real psychopath, and Sherlock hates to be described in the same way, because of:

a) What she did to him or Redbeard.  

b) What he did to her as a consequence. Did he set Redbeard on her? Maybe why the dog was put down. Don't tase the East Wind, bro. 

c) Her next move which landed her in a psych ward and incurred Mycroft's everlasting enmity.

Curious that the parents never mentioned her, especially during Christmas. It's as though she doesn't exist to them. 

The Final Problem. Sherlock either dies or retires? Obviously hoping for #2. Maybe because Eurus is finally put to rest, and Sherlock can stop running round the world solving crimes and getting closure for everyone else except himself. 

[TomServo]

19 hours ago, spottedreptile said:

I'm so sick of Moriarty. Nothing against the actor, but really can't we move on?

I agree, although I seem to be in the minority that doesn't care for Andrew Scott in this role.  When I read the books, I didn't get a "brat with a whiny sing-song voice" vibe from Moriarty.  That hard gulping thing he does is also distracting, and I assumed it was a character choice until I saw him doing it in John Adams and realized it's an affect of the actor, not the character.

[Pallas]

On 1/5/2017 at 0:06 PM, Peace 47 said:

I assume that we will eventually learn of a dead or long-lost sister, that something happened to her when she and Sherlock were out playing with Redbeard, that she was thought to have died, but possibly did not, that Sherlock feels crazy guilt over her death, and that Mycroft knew of her whereabouts and didn't tell Sherlock (but for a justifiable reason). Maybe.

Well done, Peace 47!  And three days before The Lying Detective aired.

In the flashback scene with the children and Redbeard, they seem to be playing near water. Sherlock's already suffered a trauma at two separate water locations this season: the Aquarium (scene of his "sister" Mary's death) and the Thames riverfront, scene of his flashbacks and breakdown in Euro's company. Following on your speculation: did Euros nearly drown when playing pirates with Sherlock, get rescued by big-brother Mycroft but "come back wrong" (as Buffy's Spike would have it)? Did her later disappearance inspire young Sherlock's fanciful version of the Samarra parable: cheating death, then taking up a life of piracy on the high seas? Another way to commemorate her, even as he blocked the memory of her existence?  

19 hours ago, spottedreptile said:

Mycroft in the helicopter after watching Sherlock shoot Magnussen: "Oh Sherlock what did you do?" Flashback to child Sherlock looking guilty and tearful. So Sherlock did something awful as a child. 

Or thought he did: blamed himself for Euros's accident. Because based in part on Tardislass's discovery, I do think she may have later tried to kill him, before being whisked from sight: 

On 1/9/2017 at 7:14 AM, Tardislass said:

In the story The Sussex Vampire, a jealous young boy tries to kill his baby half-brother with poison after trying it out on the dog.

JOHN (texting) Night-owl?  EUROS: Vampire!  

[Peace 47]

Thanks, Pallas! 

There was a BFI screening in London of "The Final Problem", and enough spoilers are out and circulating on Twitter and Tumblr for those who care to seek them out (but also watch out for trolls posting false ones like jerks). Probably don't read my post further if you don't want discussion of very specific spoilers that I read on someone's blog whom I follow and who was also a reliable "setlocker" for filming info (but if you don't want spoilers why are you in this thread, then?  ;-) ) 

The events of the actual episode that have leaked out don't sound like they would make for a terrible episode in and of themselves, but that person has also spoken to what does not happen in the episode, and it sounds like none of the wonkiness from TST or TLD is really explained and that it is as I feared:  fans came up with a more clever show than what the writers did.  John's note to Sherlock from TST is not addressed (minor point); everything that we've seen this season is real (so it doesn't sound like there is anything to the TD-12 drug, or the changing skull picture, or John seemingly acting out of character, like beating the living daylights out of his bff); Mary is really dead and there was nothing more to her death other than that she died as she lived--in a hail of bullets (rimshot), although I guess she has one final ghost scene.

Apparently, a new character is introduced, and  Sherlock cries over "what happened to her" (in the distant past? unclear) because she was someone that he cared about.  And I guess the baby is just something that the show is stuck with because she's apparently still around as a fixture in the final scene.  (Why they ever thought a baby in this show was a good idea is completely beyond me.  I just don't understand the point or how this illuminates anything significant about either John or Sherlock.)  Eurus is apparently Sherlock's younger sister, and so I think we might be able to assume that Andrew Scott is playing Moriarty's twin brother because there has to be a twin somewhere.

And apparently the whole episode is dark, harrowing and quite dramatic.  In any case, assuming that the spoilers are accurate, I find much of this really disappointing and the season as a whole to have been disjointed, bombastic and without any of the quiet charm from S1 or S2.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Peace 47

[Tardislass]

Oh dear. Just seen some spoilers and people's reaction over a ship-dom. It reminds of when they killed off Ianto on Torchwood and fans sent hateful mail to the writers. I understand people are upset about what they wanted to have happen and the producers of Sherlock have never been the most sympathetic. But sometimes you have to realize that where you want a character to go and where the writers take them is different. 

[fourPLUSseven]

My PBS station is advertizing the finale for $unday. Do three eps & done for S4? This feels thin. Wondering if S5 is in the works?

[Peace 47]

Yes, 3 episodes and done.  The actors and writers have been hemming and hawing a little about whether there will be a season 5.  Someone (Moffat? Gatiss? Cumberbatch?  I forget) said that this time, they felt that they had made something "very complete" or something that implied that they could be done, but then when they were actually cited in articles saying that S4 could be last, Moffat and Gatiss got all up and arms about how the press twist their words and they've made no such confirmation.  Given that this show only comes back every 2-3 years, it's going to be a long wait, if it ever does come back.

To clarify my prior post, that person offering spoilers mentioned that it wasn't ghost Mary we see again, but DVD Mary.  Mary sure goes around leaving a lot of video messages for her friends and loved ones for after she is dead.  Must have taken her hours.  John:  What are you doing in there, darling?  Mary:  Just planning for the eventuality of my imminent death!

[Enigma X]

On 1/12/2017 at 1:04 AM, spottedreptile said:

I'm so sick of Moriarty. Nothing against the actor, but really can't we move on? He's dead. Yes I know he's popular but to resurrect him for popularity's sake is just pandering. I'd much rather the twin emphasis was about Sherlock and Eurus (at least she's a new character on the show.) 

 

The character and actor annoy me to no end. 

[Peace 47]

I'm not sure what is going on with Moriarty in the finale, but I just read the post of someone else who was at the screening, and they said that there is no mention of twins anywhere in the episode (which blows my mind considering the comments about twins in the prior two episodes, and how Sherlock solved a case with triplets in "The Sign of Three").  Someone else said that Moriarty is still definitely dead.  Not sure how Andrew Scott is appearing then, unless it is flashbacks.  It doesn't sound like he plays a huge role, because people offering spoilers are not really talking about him.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Peace 47

[Peace 47]

Just an FYI, but the producers of the show themselves announced on the shows's Facebook and Twitter feeds that the Russian version of this episode (which is the same as the BFI screening version) had been leaked online, and that fans should not try to seek the episode out before the actual airing.  That's got a lot of people speculating that the show is playing some kind of game with the audience, and that the real show that airs tomorrow will have a different ending or different scenes.  I just can't imagine that this would be the case, but then neither can I imagine advertising that the episode had been leaked. It's all very odd.  I guess fair warning on the spoilers previously posted, though.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Peace 47