S05.E14: The Devil Complex

[Sandman]

On 3/24/2018 at 11:18 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

Do we need  Admiral Ackbar to join the cast to constantly yell "It's a trap!"?

Or Captain Mal? He can be even more succinct. ("Traaap!")

For me the weakest part of the Framework storyline remains the "Fitz is responsible for what Leopold did" -- I still don't buy it, at least not completely. De Caestecker and Henstridge are giving it their all, that's for certain. Not that I'm trying the rehash the debates from last season, but it still feels so manipulative (and manipulated) to me, just to put Simmons-Fitz in a gleaming torture chamber. Again.

I guess I assumed that Deke didn't know anything about his grandparents -- that he should know some much about Fitz and Simmons now seems somewhat contrived to me.

Also: I hate General Hale. I don't love to hate her; she's just smug, banal and repugnant. ("Odium" is too right.)

[Lady Calypso]

57 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I guess I assumed that Deke didn't know anything about his grandparents -- that he should know some much about Fitz and Simmons now seems somewhat contrived to me.

From what I gathered, Fitz and Jemma died before Deke was even born, so his mother may not have told him what his grandparents' names were, but she told them about her parents that Deke didn't remember until this all came up. I suspect, in his world, talking about this stuff wasn't welcomed so it had to be kept to minimal conversation. Though yeah, some of the things he told Jemma that he knew (the sandwiches, for example) were a bit contrived. I think it had more to do with getting it in the scene so Jemma would believe Deke, rather than immediately doubt him and assume he's lying (which would be a fair assumption since Deke still isn't trustworthy). 

I still found the scene to work, otherwise. Plus, some of the things he knew about, I could fanwank that Deke took after Fitz for (particularly, the acting like a baby when sick), and Deke's mother found it to be a funny anecdote to tell him. 

57 minutes ago, Sandman said:

For me the weakest part of the Framework storyline remains the "Fitz is responsible for what Leopold did" -- I still don't buy it, at least not completely. De Caestecker and Henstridge are giving it their all, that's for certain. Not that I'm trying the rehash the debates from last season, but it still feels so manipulative (and manipulated) to me, just to put Simmons-Fitz in a gleaming torture chamber. Again.

I think it's hard to really accept because this is Fitz, someone we've gotten to know for five seasons now. The fact that he would still go through with the surgery on Daisy, even to save the world, is hard to fathom, especially given Daisy and Fitz's relationship in the previous seasons. But I do think a good chunk of his behaviour is due to his brain trauma and do to him literally living two completely separate lives due to the Framework arc. I do think his mind has been broken because of it and it's a wonder he managed to come the realization when he did. But he still made the choice because he believed what he was doing was the right thing. What happened in the Framework wasn't his fault, so his mind being broken was out of his control as well. At a certain point, though, when DOES it become Fitz's fault? It's hard to say how much was in his control and how much was due to circumstance. I think that is what makes this so complex of a situation. However, he did make the choice to harm Daisy further, and knew that he'd never earn forgiveness for his actions, so I'd say that was not totally Leopold, but a mixture of both his Framework self and his own autonomy. He could have stopped it, and he didn't. He could have talked it out with Daisy and Jemma more and he chose to go through with it. And I think that's what makes it difficult to forgive Fitz, at least as of right now. He will have to work hard in order to earn that forgiveness with Daisy and Jemma, particularly, but also Mack and Deke (those two may find it easier to forgive since Fitz was more Leopold in that scenario, but also because Deke knows the rough outcome of what'll happen). 

But I do agree that it's just another torture chamber arc for the couple. I never liked the couple (I much prefer them as best friends), but at this point, I'd rather they just got their happy ending instead of piling more angst on the couple. 

[blueray]

21 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

But I do agree that it's just another torture chamber arc for the couple. I never liked the couple (I much prefer them as best friends), but at this point, I'd rather they just got their happy ending instead of piling more angst on the couple.

Me too. I really want them to just be a happy couple. There are a lot of other things going on that would be much better to focus on then the drama.

[Lobsel Vith]

3 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I disagree. Deke is nothing at all like Ward.

People are free to hate him all they want, but there are a lot of characters on this show that are shades of gray. There is reasoning and logic behind why some people don't loathe Deke and think he is nothing like Ward. Deke did not sell anyone into slavery. He turned Daisy in - he ratted her out for money. 

Incorrect. Deke sold Daisy into slavery. There is also dialogue where it is stated that Deke sold Daisy into slavery, including from Daisy (which is why Fitz and Simmons both say they want to kill him, although their anger is handwaved from one episode to the next).

This isn't a matter for dispute - it's a fact of the show. If you want to like Deke, that's your choice, but let's not pretend that Deke didn't sell Daisy into slavery when that's absolutely what he did, and there's no ambiguity about it.

3 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Ward was an awful, loathesome, evil person. Not a redeemable bone in his body. He chose evil, willingly. This is not Deke, not by a long shot.

Deke is a slaver, so he isn't much better than Ward. It's evil to sell Daisy into slavery, to put her in a position where she can be tortured, raped, or killed because she's nothing more than property. That's why slavery is evil. That's why Deke isn't much better than Ward when what he did is completely inexcusable.

3 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

IIt's not Fitz either. But I'm not willing to excuse Fitz's behavior so readily. I feel bad about it because I loved Fitz, but he is clearly damaged and needs help. I wish the writers hadn't gone there, but I will accept it and go along for the ride. 

Fitz tortured Daisy - again - an nearly got Mack and Elena killed, so my focus is more on his victims than him.

[Gothish520]

14 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Incorrect. Deke sold Daisy into slavery. There is also dialogue where it is stated that Deke sold Daisy into slavery, including from Daisy (which is why Fitz and Simmons both say they want to kill him, although their anger is handwaved from one episode to the next).

This isn't a matter for dispute - it's a fact of the show. If you want to like Deke, that's your choice, but let's not pretend that Deke didn't sell Daisy into slavery when that's absolutely what he did, and there's no ambiguity about it.

Deke is a slaver, so he isn't much better than Ward. It's evil to sell Daisy into slavery, to put her in a position where she can be tortured, raped, or killed because she's nothing more than property. That's why slavery is evil. That's why Deke isn't much better than Ward when what he did is completely inexcusable.

Fitz tortured Daisy - again - an nearly got Mack and Elena killed, so my focus is more on his victims than him.

We will have to agree to disagree. 

Hated Evil Ward, like Deke, hate this version of Fitz. Love Daisy, but she has done a lot of crappy things in the past, so she is not a pure little good girl. I do feel that Fitz did what he felt was necessary, but that does not excuse his actions. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Lobsel Vith]

13 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

We will have to agree to disagree. 

On how we feel about the characters? I suppose so.

13 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

Hated Evil Ward, like Deke, hate this version of Fitz. Love Daisy, but she has done a lot of crappy things in the past, so she is not a pure little good girl.

You realize that pointing out that a character is flawed doesn't mitigate slavery, right? It's not like Deke is just as bad as everyone else because no one in the main cast is perfect. This is bringing me back to the horrid days when people tried to make some moral equivalency between Ward and his victims.

15 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

I do feel that Fitz did what he felt was necessary, but that does not excuse his actions. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

We know from previous dialogue that Daisy did say she would restore her powers if it was necessary:

Coulson: I know you’re scared to go home.

Daisy: No, I’m terrified! If there’s a chance I’m the cause, I can’t go.

Couslon: You don’t even have your powers anymore!

Daisy: It’s only a matter of time, and you know it. If there is an emergency... or if one of you are in danger, I will need them, and we will find a way.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

But I do agree that it's just another torture chamber arc for the couple. I never liked the couple (I much prefer them as best friends), but at this point, I'd rather they just got their happy ending instead of piling more angst on the couple. 

I was never too fond of the decision to pair them together (romantically) either. I've never understood the point in putting them together when they were already a scientific duo. I know they were put together because they have their fans, but the way it was handled in seasons two and three just make it seem unhealthy, and given their brother-sister relationship in season one (with Iain and Elizabeth both saying they were playing it off as siblings right until the very end of the season, coupled with the two characters hanging out for ten years prior to the start of the show), I always found the show's handling of the two very odd.

It, unfortunately, came across as the Nice Guy trope at times (she never showed the kind of attraction to Fitz that she did to Trip, for example, and at one point even tells Bobbi she never saw Fitz romantically, which is odd if the point was to pair them together), and the whole arc with Will just made Fitz come across like the default choice in the end because agency is removed from Simmons. Their creative decisions left a lot to be desired. And it certainly impacts how I view them now because I can't forget the road they took to come to this point.

[Sandman]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

He could have talked it out with Daisy and Jemma more and he chose to go through with it. And I think that's what makes it so difficult to forgive Fitz ...

I agree. That's part of why I feel unconvinced, I think, because the show didn't establish sufficiently why Fitz didn't at least try to talk to Daisy about it. (If he's so damaged that all of the rational parts of his functioning are controlled exclusively by the Leopold personality, and the Fitz part isn't always aware of what's happening, and the episode very strongly implies that this is the case, then I think the character that we've known for five seasons is truly gone. Not just unredeemable, but irremediably broken.)

43 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I was never too fond of the decision to pair them together (romantically) either. I've never understood the point in putting them together when they were already a scientific duo. I know they were put together because they have their fans, but the way it was handled in seasons two and three just make it seem unhealthy, and given their brother-sister relationship in season one (with Iain and Elizabeth both saying they were playing it off as siblings right until the very end of the season, coupled with the two characters hanging out for ten years prior to the start of the show), I always found the show's handling of the two very odd.

It seems like a pretty unequivocal retcon for these characters.

[Enigma X]

Fitz , Simmons, Mack, and YoYo are my favorite parts of this show and really wish that both couples catch a break.

Also, Deke grew on me and if liking him only because he is FitzSimmon's grandson is a crime, shoot me. Lastly, I hated the Framework and really see what Fitz did as more of a psychological/mental issue than him--his true self--being evil. But, back when the Framework was front and center, I said that the paths chosen by those in it did not make much sense for most of the characters anyway. 

[kitlee625]

14 hours ago, Sandman said:

I agree. That's part of why I feel unconvinced, I think, because the show didn't establish sufficiently why Fitz didn't at least try to talk to Daisy about it.

I agree completely with this. I wish the writers had included something - such as Daisy and Fitz arguing about whether to unleash her powers - because I'm not sure why he immediately jumped to the conclusion that he has to hold the team hostage with the robots, kidnap Daisy, and rip the inhibitor out of her skull without anesthetic. That scene was particularly horrifying and gruesome.

 

Additionally, given that we're told that Daisy will/should take over SHIELD once Coulson dies, I think this was a big missed opportunity to have the writers show her in a leadership role, making the big decisions and the hard calls. Instead Fitz made the decision completely without her.

[Sandman]

8 hours ago, kitlee625 said:

That scene was particularly horrifying and gruesome.

It feels like there has been a lot more body horror, graphic maiming and general gruesome torture this season. That going-for-broke gore, and the fact that the storylines seemed to circling back to pick up details and characters from the first season has suggested to me that the writers are looking at wrapping up the show this season. (I have no spoilers or knowledge on this, I'm just going with my gut. And the guts all over the show.)

Oh, and also Coulson, y'know, DYING, possibly.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Sandman
Doy.

[Gothish520]

2 hours ago, Sandman said:

It feels like there has been a lot more body horror, graphic maiming and general gruesome torture this season. That going-for-broke gore, and the fact that the storylines seemed to circling back to pick up details and characters from the first season has suggested to me that the writers are looking at wrapping up the show this season. (I have no spoilers or knowledge on this, I'm just going with my gut. And the guts all over the show.)

My husband is ready to be done with the show, but I'm convincing him to stick it out. Blood and guts don't bother him at all, but he hates how thematically dark the show has gotten. Blood and guts and super-dark storylines DO bother me, a lot, and I've been known to abandon shows if I can't take what they're giving (Sons of Anarchy, Mad Men, Justified) but I'm invested in these characters so I'm here until the end.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Gothish520

[Froippi]

Idk why this is such a big complaint about the show being Dark I actually like it being Dark 

[romantic idiot]

Relentless misery is boring.

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, Froippi said:

Idk why this is such a big complaint about the show being Dark I actually like it being Dark 

I'm ok with it, as they have managed to still retain some humor and hope. It hasn't gotten so dark that I can't take it anymore. 

39 minutes ago, romantic idiot said:

Relentless misery is boring.

It can be, for sure. Boring and/or depressing. Sons of Anarchy reached that point in the last couple of seasons, where it was just so dark and the characters had crossed so many lines that it was a serious struggle to get through an episode. I don't feel like SHIELD has done that, thankfully. And I'm still interested and invested in the characters and what happens to them.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 3/25/2018 at 9:34 PM, Cirien said:

Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting or even being BFF's with him. 

If she comes to a place where she goes "I get what you did and why you did it but I can't never trust you again and we're not friends or acquaintances but I'll work with you because the world is bigger than what you did to me" That would make sense 

Even if everyone forgives him and hugs and everything how can they (and Fitz himself) ever trust him? These people make life or death decisions every day,  so how can they be sure that the evil switch in Fitz's brain won't flip causing him to make another Doctor-style decision against what everyone else wants. Especially since it seems like he couldn't even control it.

Also I thought Daisy's power controller thing was incredibly complicated i  the way it was attached to her brain and that is why they couldn't take it out. But Fitz just literally yanked it out with no damage to her brain so that was kind of weird.

I did like the way they used the stealth plane to capture the general's suv though. Even if it was her plan.

[Froippi]

36 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Even if everyone forgives him and hugs and everything how can they (and Fitz himself) ever trust him? These people make life or death decisions every day,  so how can they be sure that the evil switch in Fitz's brain won't flip causing him to make another Doctor-style decision against what everyone else wants. Especially since it seems like he couldn't even control it.

Also I thought Daisy's power controller thing was incredibly complicated i  the way it was attached to her brain and that is why they couldn't take it out. But Fitz just literally yanked it out with no damage to her brain so that was kind of weird.

I did like the way they used the stealth plane to capture the general's suv though. Even if it was her plan.

Unless they over analyze how complicated it was to take it out which I don’t think they did 

[kitlee625]

As I recall, the inhibitor couldn't be removed because it's wrapped around a nerve - I think it was the auditory nerve. The medical babble on this wasn't exactly the best though, because damage to the nerve could cause vertigo and deafness, but certainly not death or paralysis.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 3/29/2018 at 2:28 PM, kitlee625 said:

As I recall, the inhibitor couldn't be removed because it's wrapped around a nerve - I think it was the auditory nerve. The medical babble on this wasn't exactly the best though, because damage to the nerve could cause vertigo and deafness, but certainly not death or paralysis.

Any real-life surgery -- let alone surgery involving fictional future tech -- could have unintended consequences ranging from infection to death.

One of the things about sci-fi shows is that people are often somehow managing to master technologies that they've glimpsed for five seconds. Stargate was a particular offender, where Jackson and Carter often managed to figure out technology that the original creators couldn't.

[Raja]

33 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Any real-life surgery -- let alone surgery involving fictional future tech -- could have unintended consequences ranging from infection to death.

One of the things about sci-fi shows is that people are often somehow managing to master technologies that they've glimpsed for five seconds. Stargate was a particular offender, where Jackson and Carter often managed to figure out technology that the original creators couldn't.

But in this example we don't know what training beyond engineering 'The Doctor" got in the Framework. You can make an easier case for Leopold to have time unseen by the viewer to acquire a neurosurgeon's skill than for Simmins being a biochemist and SHIELD field agent having her  surgical residency.

[Jack Shaftoe]

This episode could have been pretty great on its own but as part of an ongoing narrative, it did not exactly thrill me. I have been sick of the over the top angst and tragedy in the FitzSimmons relationship for something like two seasons now. It just never ends, does it? Elizabeth and Iain are doing an incredible job but come on, give their characters a break, please! I mean, I even liked Deke because he tried to reassure Jemma in the end. Honestly, I adore Fitz and Simmons individually but their romantic relationship is usually either boring or annoying. I guess with all that time travel stuff there isn't a chance of them breaking it up for good but I can't say I will miss it if they do.

Moral of the story - don't miss sleep or your dark side will take over.

Also, Mutant Enemy has done the "member of the team goes dark" plotline about a million times. And usually they don't do it very well, to be honest. I really wish they hadn't gone there with Fitz. There is a pretty wide range of options between "total do-gooder" and "straps to the table and performs brain surgery on an unwilling friend because the ends justify the means". We could have at least seen him try to convince Daisy that restoring her powers would be the right thing to do and then go all desperate when she refused.

Can't they just, you know, delete all Framework related memories from Fitz's brain? Sure, it will be a very convenient way of resolving the situation but trusting him in the condition he is now would be monumentally stupid. So I am pretty sure that this is exactly what will happen, alas.

At the end of the day, the show is already "a small team against the world", did we really need one member of the team to turn against the others? Especially after the show has already done this type of storyline with Ward, Radcliffe, Bobbi, Mack, Andrew and probably quite a few other characters whom I am forgetting.