S13.E14: Good Intentions

[MysteryGuest]

I have no issue with what Cas did with Donatello.  What else were they going to do with him?  The combination of demon tablet and no soul was too much for him.  His soul would have acted as a filter, per Cas, but without that, he just absorbed all of that evil.  Not to mention working behind their backs with Asmodeus.  The writers missed the mark on this one, I think.  Having Sam and Dean call Cas out like that was hypocritical and out of character.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

...Or he didn't torture her as much as Lucifer was implying which was the original argument. :)

Yeah, probably not.  Literally the only thing we saw was that she was hanging in a cage where if she moved she would be cut with a spike.  Now, I'm not saying that's not torture.  but, it certainly isn't the worst torture Lucifer's ever seen (not that he even saw that since he appeared to be elsewhere) and probably wouldn't leave a lot of marks.  The biggest thing would be fatigue.  and if she had been out of the cage for a while and able to sleep she may have not looked all that much the worse for the wear. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Speaking of time lines - was it weird to anyone else that it's six months since Jack was born? I didn't get the impression of that much time passing in the episodes.

Well, it's been six months since the start of S13 and the show usually does run concurrent with time in our universe, so no I didn't think it was weird.

1 hour ago, Commando Cody said:

I think it's a plot hole that Jack could open rifts before he was born, but he can't open them now. 

I don't think Jack did it intentionally when he was in utero--just cosmic power leaking out into the world--but I think he can open a rift now, just doesn't know how without someone like Kaia because that's the only way he's done it before. Most of his powers have been untested so we don't know what he can and can't do.

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here's a question. Is Donatello a human if he has no soul? That was always what I wondered about with Soulless Sam. Isn't that why Dean wanted to put it back because Sam had become human adjacent? And then we have an entity who is supposed to be protected by archangels so shouldn't Lucifer have coming in from Heaven to protect this prophet or does that protection no longer apply to a soulless prophet?

I'd say technically, no, he's not human if he has no soul. Just like I don't believe Cass was human when he had no grace; he was mortal, but can never be human if he has no soul.

As to the other part, I'm not sure what still stands for anything in Heaven anymore. Not-so-marvy Marv turned a lot of switches and made a big mess up there, so maybe prophets are such a big deal to archangels anymore. Or maybe Raphael was the one tasked with protecting prophets and with him gone the job was never filled again? I dunno.

Which reminds me, I thought it was pretty reckless and foolish of them to leave Donatello in a hospital, unprotected. He may be brain dead right now, but he's still a prophet of the Lord, you'd think demons and angels alike wouldn't mind poking and prodding at him to see what makes him tick.

Edited March 2, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here's a question. Is Donatello a human if he has no soul? That was always what I wondered about with Soulless Sam. Isn't that why Dean wanted to put it back because Sam had become human adjacent? And then we have an entity who is supposed to be protected by archangels so shouldn't Lucifer have coming in from Heaven to protect this prophet or does that protection no longer apply to a soulless prophet?

I've hated the whole soulless thing since Season 6. I think it's stupid. So, yeah, I don't think they're quite human.  But, I don't know why you would think Lucifer would care about prophets. He's a fallen angel. Not a "tow the line and do your job" angel.    If Kevin had been helping out TFW during Season 6, do you think Raphael would have protected him?  Probably not.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, it's been six months since the start of S13 and the show usually does run concurrent with time in our universe, so no I didn't think it was weird.

I still don't have the sense of six months passing in the show. The first few episodes took place over a matter of days. I'm not sure where months came into play in the ensuing episodes.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I've hated the whole soulless thing since Season 6. I think it's stupid. So, yeah, I don't think they're quite human.  But, I don't know why you would think Lucifer would care about prophets. He's a fallen angel. Not a "tow the line and do your job" angel.    If Kevin had been helping out TFW during Season 6, do you think Raphael would have protected him?  Probably not

Quote

DEAN
So, what – We're just supposed to sit around and, and wait for it to happen?

CASTIEL
I'm sorry.

DEAN
Screw you. You and your mission. Your God. If you don't help me now, then when the time comes and you need me... don't bother knocking.

DEAN brushes past CASTIEL and begins to walk away, but he stops at CASTIEL's voice.

CASTIEL
Dean. Dean.

DEAN
What?!

CASTIEL
You must understand why I can't intercede. Prophets are very special. They're protected.

DEAN
I get that.

CASTIEL
If anything threatens a prophet, anything at all, an archangel will appear to destroy that threat. Archangels are fierce. They're absolute. They're heaven's most terrifying weapon.

DEAN
And these archangels, they're tied to prophets?

CASTIEL
Yes.

DEAN
So if a prophet was in the same room as a demon –

CASTIEL
Then the most fearsome wrath of heaven would rain down on that demon. Just so you understand... why I can't help.

DEAN
Thanks, Cas.

Okay but I'm not talking about s6. I'm talking about the idea that was set in s4 that if a prophet is under attack then the archangel comes to save them. So, in this case, in s13, with Lucifer deciding that Michael is going to kill them all, wouldn't it behoove him to protect Donatello? 

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I still don't have the sense of six months passing in the show. The first few episodes took place over a matter of days. I'm not sure where months came into play in the ensuing episodes.

The only way this works is if the boys were in the Bad Place a lot longer then has been let on. I completely agree with you. IMO it's been at most...3 months. Not 6 months.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Which reminds me, I thought it was pretty reckless and foolish of them to leave Donatello in a hospital, unprotected. He may be brain dead right now, but he's still a prophet of the Lord, you'd think demons and angels alike wouldn't mind poking and prodding at him to see what makes him tick.

That's literally what I mentioned upthread a couple of times. That he is ripe for the pickings for anyone who wants at him.

And by literally, I mean that leaving him there was not a good idea.

Edited March 2, 2018 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I still don't have the sense of six months passing in the show. The first few episodes took place over a matter of days. I'm not sure where months came into play in the ensuing episodes.

I just felt like after the first couple episodes they started happening over the course of a couple weeks. And then after Jack ran off, I think there was a huge time gap there before they found him again. So, it didn't seem weird to me or make me pause when Mary said it--although, I'm not sure how she's kept track of the time considering she's been tortured and hanging in a cage where if she moved it would poke a hole in her--but I'll tell you what is weird now that I've thought about it. Technically, Jack was born in May of 2017, so he should be 11 months old. We know they'll end the season in May again--like always--so, you're right, time is pretty screwy when you think about it.

[Jonesy]

Do love the more badass Cas ala season 4 we have gotten lately--I just don't want them to make Cas slip and go bad.  Badass yes, bad no.  Anyone else think the perfect place for Mary to end up is to stay in AU world and partner with Bobby?  Don't need her around the guys all the time--give her a different area either off or on the show.  Cas and Dean--the pretty ones fighting the ancient dudes--very funny.  Jack is just a great addition--he's part of the family now.

[Jonesy]

14 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I missed the first 2/3 but when somebody explained who Got and Magog were I was agog (lol) because that is human sacrifice.  A human character saying yes to human sacrifice is dark.  

At the end of the episode the Winchesters were against killing Donatello because there were other ways to solve the problem. 

They were totally fine with human sacrifice to save Mary, like the Plum Sisters, if that was the only way to get what they needed.  Pretty damn dark and then Cas went darker.

It has been a while however my recollection of season 4 Cas was that he was magnificent, powerful, serious and unemotional.  This Cas is different.

Or to get their nephilim killing knives.  I havecsussed from She's comments that only their swords could kill them and that they were nephilim because they''re giants that should have died in the flood * explained in more detail else where).

This Cas is more a combo of his season 4 badass self with the new emotional beats he has gotten being around the Winchesters which have been developed more in the Dabb era--such how he was emotional after "killing" Billy to protect the Winchesters.

[Katy M]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay but I'm not talking about s6. I'm talking about the idea that was set in s4 that if a prophet is under attack then the archangel comes to save them. So, in this case, in s13, with Lucifer deciding that Michael is going to kill them all, wouldn't it behoove him to protect Donatello? 

maybe, but Lucifer is extremely arrogant.  We know that.  So, he's not going to think some puny human is going to be able to help against Michael.

 

33 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Technically, Jack was born in May of 2017, so he should be 11 months old.

Do we know it was May?  Did anyone say, hey, today is May whatever, 2017.  Or do we know it's March now? 

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

maybe, but Lucifer is extremely arrogant.  We know that.  So, he's not going to think some puny human is going to be able to help against Michael.

 Lucifer has always used humans as his vessels and other things. He's never struck me as particularly stupid and not willing to use whatever tools he needed to accomplish his goals. Knowledge is power and why Lucifer wouldn't use the knowledge of a prophet makes no sense, not even for an arrogant Lucifer. 

Sam pinpointed the date of birth to May 18, 2017. It was on screen.

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, Mary was in remarkably good shape for someone who had been tortured for months so severely that even Lucifer found it excessive. I have to admit that I snickered when she commented that she thought she was getting migraines from the torture -- oh, certainly, my dear, being tortured always gives me SUCH a migraine too! And I thought it was silly too, and pretty lame, when it turned out that they had to stand in a certain spot (conveniently right next to the window!) in order for Jack to be able to use his powers. It was just like when I moved into my new house and discovered that I could only use my phone when I stood in a certain spot by the front room window.

Mary didn't get a migraine from the torture. She said she had a migraine, because Michael was in her head, messing with her.

And the powers thing was likely due to warding... and actually in that case it kind of makes sense based on what's been shown in the past on Supernatural. All it takes is for one symbol to be out of place for there to be a weakness. Castiel showed up once or twice when Sam and Dean were trying to keep him out claiming just that. "You guys got a couple of symbols wrong." So I can see where a window might somehow weaken a symbol due to distorting it. Or if the symbols had to be put around the window, how the distances might have messed up the strength of the warding, since the symbols having to be precise has actually been established by the show in the past. The placement of the symbols and the way they are drawn is very important to their power, and any deviation or mistake can cause the magic to not work properly or as well, so i could see how a window might mess that up but that not being readily apparent to the maker of the warding.

4 hours ago, SueB said:

On Cas frying Donnie's brain, it was a likely outcome but not definite.   The Winchesters have taken that kind of risk before from what Cas has seen.  And Cas definitely wasn't happy about it.  The boys took vegetable Donnie to the hospital but he's "brain dead".  Which means there will be no new prophet called until he's most sincerely dead.  Keeps another prophet off the board until the story needs one.

Maybe they were hoping Jack could heal him?  Or just letting enough time pass to make sure some other thing didn't happen that changed him.  

 

It also keeps another prophet off the board and them not having to worry that the bad guys might want to get their hands on a live prophet. They know the spell - through Castiel - so why would they want to take a chance that a prophet might be able to help someone else? What if the angel tablet has a spell? Lucifer could have angels could pick up the new prophet, bring him the pieces of the broken angel tablet to put back together, and get their own spell. Hopefully either Donatello having no soul will keep demons or angels from finding his comatose body, or - if the boys were smart - they warded Donatello's body in the hospital somehow. It could also be that Castiel either - intentionally or unintentionally - messed up Donatello's mind beyond repair / recognition. Maybe he literally siphoned off the spell and left nothing behind. In any of those cases, yup, I think not having to worry about a new prophet is the better choice. A new prophet - that they would have to take time to find and hope that they did before any bad guys did - would, in my opinion, be more of a distraction.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

That's literally what I mentioned upthread a couple of times. That he is ripe for the pickings for anyone who wants at him.

And by literally, I mean that leaving him there was not a good idea.

 

I'm hoping that they were smart enough to hide him somehow through warding... They should have had Castiel burn that engraving onto his ribs for example.

Edited March 2, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

42 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Do we know it was May?  Did anyone say, hey, today is May whatever, 2017.  Or do we know it's March now? 

In general, the show has always hinted their finales are in May--usually the day finale airs. Superwiki.com has the timeline of All Along the Watchtower set on "May 18th, 2017." They don't usually give a specific date if there is none given in the episode or hinted at in a previous one. For instance, the timeline listed for Lost and Found is "immediately following the events of On the Watchtower." They have no specific dates for episodes in S13, but a few are "immedietly following...." I believe last season, they gave the time for gestation on a nephilium to line up with Kelly giving birth on the day the finale aired in The Future, but I'd have to look it up to be sure.  

In general, it's been my observation, the show usually runs concurrent to our time frame. For instance, in S5 it was October of 2009 when Dean got thrown forward in time in The End and also October of 2009 when the episode aired. And, Lucifer gave the date of the finale for the date Sam would say "yes" in Abandon All Hope.

And, in general it's been my observation, if they pick up the premiere from when the previous season finale left off--instead of doing a few months time jump like say back in S10--usually the show starts to line back up with our time frame by the time they come back from the mid-season hiatus. They'll either outright state a date, have a holiday themed episode that lines up airing with the actual holiday, or they calendars or other clues to tell you what month it is.

IMO, the biggest screwiness happened in S6 though when they couldn't keep track of the year time jump and decided to just ignore it. And, that's how they've operated with every time jump since--ignored it, that is. So the year isn't always accurate, but my impression has been that they're operating in the same month the episodes air, more or less.

Just so you know, it doesn't really bother me, I just recognize that time can be screwy on TV. And, IMO, it has felt like six months has passed on the show. However, in this case, I actually think Jack being 11 months old instead of six fits his current development better even if there's no way 11 months have passed since the start of the season. I kinda feel like six months would've been about the time he ran off development-wise. Don't ask me why, it's just my impression.
 

Edited March 2, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[Lemuria]

Just a question about Donatello:  Didn't Metatron use his angel-tablet given powers to see what prophets were hiding in the bushes and eliminate them all to ensure no more would rise after Kevin's death?  I always assumed that Amara did something, because she wanted Donatello to make contact with Dean, that turned Donatello into someone who could prophesize but who was not a prophet of God and therefore neither protected by archangels nor someone who would turn on a new prophet with his death.

 

Jack staying in the AU?  Can I vote 10,000 times "yes?"  Anything to get that one-note, boring and ultimately pointless character off my screen.  Jack was less naive, more clever, manipulative and deceptive, layered, nuanced, complex--let's be real, the nature vs nurture argument was over the minute the little eclair was found sitting nekkid as a jaybird by Sam--and, frankly, more interesting when the bugger was a fetus.  Being born was the worst thing that ever happened to his character, IMO.  I've seen comments that he has a purpose and is now being a badass.  First, there were people in the last election who chose not to vote as a protest against one thing or another.  So, there was a purpose to not voting.  Except that, when it comes to counting the votes, you can't tell a purpose-driven non-vote from a too-lazy-or-stupid-to-care non-vote; they're both just non-votes.

And I can't tell a purpose-driven Jack from a non-purpose-driven Jack.  He remains as bland as vanilla pudding.

Second, how is he any more badass than he was before?  He isn't doing anything he didn't at least try to do before.  He may be getting more powerful but that was only to be expected, since the show insists on making him the most powerful being in creation after Amara and God (which IMHO is so much bantha chips).  Maybe it would matter to me more if I actually cared about the little profiterole but...

What's worse for me is that they squandered the whole AU idea on Jack.  Since they appear to be doing nothing much with what is a great concept, it's becoming increasingly clear to me that they created the whole AU thing just to have something to do with Jack.  They can't leave him in the "our" universe with his powers, so he has to be de-powered or go somewhere else.  Why bother in the first place?

And there were so many amazing possibilities with a multiverse.  They could really have brought new life to the show playing with it.  Then, again, that would have required some imagination on the part of the writers and showrunners.

 

Quote

But, it was said that she looked to good for someone that was tortured.  So, if she did look to good then Michael probably healed her.

I'm with those who think that she simply wasn't tortured all that much.  Michael apparently felt he needed her for some reason.  Otherwise I think he would have just killed her.  To him, she would just have been another useless human.  Why keep her around?  Her "torture" seemed to be on the same level as Bobby's in Hell (as per "Taxi Driver").  Remember that fiasco?  Bobby was kept in a cell with an unlocked door (since Sam could just waltz in) and every day two demons who wore Dean and Sam's faces would come in and insult him.  Just gives me shivers thinking how much he must have suffered compared to--I don't know, Dean?--with the hooks all over the place and on a rack where Dean was dismembered daily.  

It's like last season trying to tell us that Mary is the baddest hunter ever, all the while showing us how bad at it she really was.  Because being a good hunter requires some smarts.  She fell for the BMoL's line, she seemed to fail to notice that Ketch was a psychopath and going even further back, she remained in hunting after she married (making her a massive hypocrite) yet she failed to demon-proof her home.  How stupid is that?

And now, to show us that, yes, she can be a good mother, she seems to be taking a maternal interest in Jack.  Run, Vanilla Cupcake, run--I hear she has a sweet tooth!!

(I also agree with posters who hated AU Bobby--and why did we need Bobby for that?  It's not as if our Mary Campbell and their Bobby Singer had any kind of relationship.  The show could have used anyone there--giving Mary a pass on the deal.  Especially as there could be any number of universes where she marries John and the Apocalypse still happens.)

Edited March 3, 2018 by Lemuria

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Just a question about Donatello:  Didn't Metatron use his angel-tablet given powers to see what prophets were hiding in the bushes and eliminate them all to ensure no more would rise after Kevin's death?  I always assumed that Amara did something, because she wanted Donatello to make contact with Dean, that turned Donatello into someone who could prophesize but who was not a prophet of God and therefore neither protected by archangels nor someone who would turn on a new prophet with his death.

He didn't eliminate them, he flipped a switch so that a new one wouldn't be activated.  So, yeah, Amara could have done something.  After Metatron's reign, the switch could have been flipped back (doesn't have to literally be a switch), or when the tablet broke it erased some (obviously not all) of the stuff Metatron did.  That was also the episode where Chuck showed up (refuse to call him God) and he obviously he could have intervened in that.

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Mary didn't get a migraine from the torture. She said she had a migraine, because Michael was in her head, messing with her.

I didn't say I thought Mary got a migraine from the torture -- she did. She says to Jack, "Your head hurts? Mine too. I've had migraines ever since they locked me in here. I thought it was from the torture."

I just thought (and still do) that it was a silly thing to say, as if the aim of months of torture by Michael and his thugs was to make her head hurt. But mostly I did not like it because it is a part of a pattern in the way the show presents Mary.

We are told by the narrative that Mary has been tortured -- not just kept prisoner, not just treated badly or made uncomfortable, but tortured. Except there is no sign of it when we see her. I get the feeling that the show is telling me that Mary is just so brave and so tough that it did not affect her. I would not be surprised if that was the idea, because the show has been doing this from the start with Mary, telling us instead of showing us. They tell us that she is an awesome hunter, that she cares about her sons, that she "made the right choice" by making a demon deal. If the show wants me to believe all this about Mary, they need to do less Tell and more Show because I'm not buying it.

13 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

It's like last season trying to tell us that Mary is the baddest hunter ever, all the while showing us how bad at it she really was. 

Exactly!

18 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I also agree with posters who hated AU Bobby--and why did we need Bobby for that?

I think that one reason is that Bobby has always been the voice of the writers, and in this case they used him to Tell us more about how awesome Mary is, that she has made the right choices, that she has done a good job with her boys, and so on. A nice shortcut for them, so that they don't have to actually do the work of Showing us all this.

[DeeDee79]

22 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I am getting "If bacon's what kills me,then I win." on a t-shirt.

 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

I didn't say I thought Mary got a migraine from the torture -- she did. She says to Jack, "Your head hurts? Mine too. I've had migraines ever since they locked me in here. I thought it was from the torture."

I just thought (and still do) that it was a silly thing to say, as if the aim of months of torture by Michael and his thugs was to make her head hurt. But mostly I did not like it because it is a part of a pattern in the way the show presents Mary.

We are told by the narrative that Mary has been tortured -- not just kept prisoner, not just treated badly or made uncomfortable, but tortured. Except there is no sign of it when we see her. I get the feeling that the show is telling me that Mary is just so brave and so tough that it did not affect her. I would not be surprised if that was the idea, because the show has been doing this from the start with Mary, telling us instead of showing us. They tell us that she is an awesome hunter, that she cares about her sons, that she "made the right choice" by making a demon deal. If the show wants me to believe all this about Mary, they need to do less Tell and more Show because I'm not buying it.

Exactly!

I think that one reason is that Bobby has always been the voice of the writers, and in this case they used him to Tell us more about how awesome Mary is, that she has made the right choices, that she has done a good job with her boys, and so on. A nice shortcut for them, so that they don't have to actually do the work of Showing us all this.

We were shown repeatedly that Mary was a badass hunter.  She took Dean down... DEAN.

And they repeatedly have shown her being badass at hunting.  In fact she is so frigging badass and efficient at killing that Letch fell in love with her.   And AU Bobby.

The lady took on Lucifer and pushed him through the rift in a badass hail Mary move.  What more does she have to do

I really don't get the hate for the character.  She's flawed sure... so was John and so is Sam and Dean.  She focused on her needs rather than playing mommy to two grown men pushing 40. Brava.  

Why is she held to a different standard than other characters.

And she was under the effects of a powerful angelic love spell courtesy of a Cupid.  She was not in control of her feelings for John and her response to losing him.  It is not like she drained the blood of possessed humame for power which most fans give Sam a free pass on, or tbought human sacrifice was okay wbich Sam seemed cool with in season 3, sanctioned in season 10 and apparently went for last night.

Fans never hold him responsible to any of that  do they.  But God forbid Mary is human and flawed and doesn't tuck Sammie in at night because she is tending to her serious emotional issues from being dragged abruptly out of her heaven to a world where her babies are suddenly grown men with lousy lives which she blames herself for and tried to fix by working with the BMOL to eradicate all monsters.

I just do not get the hate.

[Ria]

35 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

  23 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I am getting "If bacon's what kills me,then I win." on a t-shirt.

It only really makes sense if you have people, monsters and/or demons trying to kill you all the time. ;)

 

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

She made the right choice by making a demon deal

I absolutely hate that the deal she made is being turned into the right decision. I get that Sam and Dean are special but I don’t need it shoved at me that they are the most specialist humans to ever walk the earth and humanity had no hope without them. 

There must be another AU where Sam and Dean were never born and the Apocalypse never started as well as all the post apoc near calamities they had a hand in. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Ria

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

It is not like she drained the blood of possessed humame for power which most fans give Sam a free pass on, or tbought human sacrifice was okay wbich Sam seemed cool with in season 3, sanctioned in season 10 and apparently went for last night.

Fans never hold him responsible to any of that  do they. 

You've obviously never spent time in the Bitch vs. Jerk thread :)

Edited March 3, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Castiels Cat]

7 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

You've obviously never spent time in the Bitch vs. Jerk thread :)

No I have not... lol.  Good to know.  I have literally been on this site for a week and I have not seen every thread.  I am used to imbd or sites which focus discussion on episodes or a soeculative post.

[DeeDee79]

Just now, Castiels Cat said:

No I have not... lol.  Good to know.  I have literally been on this site for a week and I have not seen every thread.  I am used to imbd or sites which focus discussion on episodes or a soeculative post.

I actually envy you this :) That thread can get pretty nasty; there are barbs thrown at the brothers ( and their supporters ) that can really raise your blood pressure!

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

He didn't eliminate them, he flipped a switch so that a new one wouldn't be activated.  So, yeah, Amara could have done something.  After Metatron's reign, the switch could have been flipped back (doesn't have to literally be a switch), or when the tablet broke it erased some (obviously not all) of the stuff Metatron did.  That was also the episode where Chuck showed up (refuse to call him God) and he obviously he could have intervened in that.

Yes! To your prophet summary.

And Yes!! To Chuck being God.  It gives Dean too much power in my opinion because Chuck let's Dean change the story (season 5) and answered Dean's call in season 11.

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

And Yes!! To Chuck being God.  It gives Dean too much power in my opinion because Chuck let's Dean change the story (season 5) and answered Dean's call in season 11

I don't get this viewpoint. However, this is not the thread to question this so I posted my response in the All Episodes thread.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Lemuria said:

ust a question about Donatello:  Didn't Metatron use his angel-tablet given powers to see what prophets were hiding in the bushes and eliminate them all to ensure no more would rise after Kevin's death?  I always assumed that Amara did something, because she wanted Donatello to make contact with Dean, that turned Donatello into someone who could prophesize but who was not a prophet of God and therefore neither protected by archangels nor someone who would turn on a new prophet with his death.

Amara took Donatello's soul. I'm not sure why she did

 

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I think that one reason is that Bobby has always been the voice of the writers, and in this case they used him to Tell us more about how awesome Mary is, that she has made the right choices, that she has done a good job with her boys, and so on. A nice shortcut for them, so that they don't have to actually do the work of Showing us all this.

If this was actual!Bobby from our world. Then I would buy what they are selling***, but what her AU version did or didn't do in that world, doesn't absolve her of what her action did in her world.

That attempt to make her deal be not so bad kind of destroys Dean telling her he hated her for that deal.

I mean how dare Dean hate his mother when if she hadn't made that deal then an alternate universe was destroyed. FUCK OFF show with that crap.

ETA: ***Actually no, I wouldn't buy it either.  It's a screwed up false equivalency. It's not even a It's Wonderful Life situation either, because it's in a different universe with different versions of the characters. It's just stupid. IMO

Edited March 3, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

: ***Actually no, I wouldn't buy it either.  It's a screwed up false equivalency. It's not even a It's Wonderful Life situation either, because it's in a different universe with different versions of the characters. It's just stupid. IMO

I think from the shows perspective this isn’t entirely true. I believe the show is trying to tell us that prior to Mary making that deal with Azazel for John’s life in 73 the characters were all the exact same. The differences between AU Mary, AU Bobby, AU Michael and our versions of them are entirely due to their different experiences since 1973. 

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Just a question about Donatello:  Didn't Metatron use his angel-tablet given powers to see what prophets were hiding in the bushes and eliminate them all to ensure no more would rise after Kevin's death?  I always assumed that Amara did something, because she wanted Donatello to make contact with Dean, that turned Donatello into someone who could prophesize but who was not a prophet of God and therefore neither protected by archangels nor someone who would turn on a new prophet with his death.

 

Jack staying in the AU?  Can I vote 10,000 times "yes?"  Anything to get that one-note, boring and ultimately pointless character off my screen.  Jack was less naive, more clever, manipulative and deceptive, layered, nuanced, complex--let's be real, the nature vs nurture argument was over the minute the little eclair was found sitting nekkid as a jaybird by Sam--and, frankly, more interesting when the bugger was a fetus.  Being born was the worst thing that ever happened to his character, IMO.  I've seen comments that he has a purpose and is now being a badass.  First, there were people in the last election who chose not to vote as a protest against one thing or another.  So, there was a purpose to not voting.  Except that, when it comes to counting the votes, you can't tell a purpose-driven non-vote from a too-lazy-or-stupid-to-care non-vote; they're both just non-votes.

And I can't tell a purpose-driven Jack from a non-purpose-driven Jack.  He remains as bland as vanilla pudding.

Second, how is he any more badass than he was before?  He isn't doing anything he didn't at least try to do before.  He may be getting more powerful but that was only to be expected, since the show insists on making him the most powerful being in creation after Amara and God (which IMHO is so much bantha chips).  Maybe it would matter to me more if I actually cared about the little profiterole but...

What's worse for me is that they squandered the whole AU idea on Jack.  Since they appear to be doing nothing much with what is a great concept, it's becoming increasingly clear to me that they created the whole AU thing just to have something to do with Jack.  They can't leave him in the "our" universe with his powers, so he has to be de-powered or go somewhere else.  Why bother in the first place?

And there were so many amazing possibilities with a multiverse.  They could really have brought new life to the show playing with it.  Then, again, that would have required some imagination on the part of the writers and showrunners.

 

I'm with those who think that she simply wasn't tortured all that much.  Michael apparently felt he needed her for some reason.  Otherwise I think he would have just killed her.  To him, she would just have been another useless human.  Why keep her around?  Her "torture" seemed to be on the same level as Bobby's in Hell (as per "Taxi Driver").  Remember that fiasco?  Bobby was kept in a cell with an unlocked door (since Sam could just waltz in) and every day two demons who wore Dean and Sam's faces would come in and insult him.  Just gives me shivers thinking how much he must have suffered compared to--I don't know, Dean?--with the hooks all over the place and on a rack where Dean was dismembered daily.  

It's like last season trying to tell us that Mary is the baddest hunter ever, all the while showing us how bad at it she really was.  Because being a good hunter requires some smarts.  She fell for the BMoL's line, she seemed to fail to notice that Ketch was a psychopath and going even further back, she remained in hunting after she married (making her a massive hypocrite) yet she failed to demon-proof her home.  How stupid is that?

And now, to show us that, yes, she can be a good mother, she seems to be taking a maternal interest in Jack.  Run, Vanilla Cupcake, run--I hear she has a sweet tooth!!

(I also agree with posters who hated AU Bobby--and why did we need Bobby for that?  It's not as if our Mary Campbell and their Bobby Singer had any kind of relationship.  The show could have used anyone there--giving Mary a pass on the deal.  Especially as there could be any number of universes where she marries John and the Apocalypse still happens.)

I don't think Mary fell for the BMOL. I think that after they helped spring Sam and Dean she saw the BMOL as the best way to get rid of all monsters so rhat her boys would not have to hunt. It was a calculated decision on her oart to try to improve Dean and Sam's lives because she blames her deal for their situation.

Sure there is oodles of potential greatness in dealing with an alternate dimension.  They ignored that with Purgatory because the brothers cannot be separated... at least not in season 8.

They actually are not ignoring alternate universes now.  Clearly Wayward Sisters will be focused around rift monsters and Kaia which is unfortunate because they have not put much thought into the Bad Place and the rubber suits were laughable.

As for the AU Apocalypse, it maybe was conceived just to show the Winchesters an It's a Wonderful Life scenario, in other words Dean and Sam and Mary do make a difference and to spit up some dead fan favorites for a very special episode.

I think it is also supposed to be a harbinger of our own

Jack may stay there, defeat Michael and make it fabulous... or Michael gets the upper hand and makes it over here.  I think that isckess likely because I think showing how awful AU Michael is and the fact that the angel a turned on humanity I are meant to be the main takeaways. 

Couple that with Lucifer's comment to Cas that Michael in any iteration is an obsessive dude that never gives up and we now know that our Michael would create a similar hell on earth despite the fact that he seemed calm and measured.  This is important because Dean is primed to do anything to save Mary and his go to move is to sacrifice himself when he is depressed and desperate.  I think the close-up on his face when Cas mentions that an arcangel's grace is a recipe  component.was to show us that Dean is already thinking about making a deal with our Michael And our Michael is no longer calm and measured.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I think from the shows perspective this isn’t entirely true. I believe the show is trying to tell us that prior to Mary making that deal with Azazel for John’s life in 73 the characters were all the exact same. The differences between AU Mary, AU Bobby, AU Michael and our versions of them are entirely due to their different experiences since 1973. 

Say what? What?? What???? What???

Are you serious? Where are you getting that from??

[Castiels Cat]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Amara took Donatello's soul. I'm not sure why she did

 

If this was actual!Bobby from our world. Then I would buy what they are selling***, but what her AU version did or didn't do in that world, doesn't absolve her of what her action did in her world.

That attempt to make her deal be not so bad kind of destroys Dean telling her he hated her for that deal.

I mean how dare Dean hate his mother when if she hadn't made that deal then an alternate universe was destroyed. FUCK OFF show with that crap.

ETA: ***Actually no, I wouldn't buy it either.  It's a screwed up false equivalency. It's not even a It's Wonderful Life situation either, because it's in a different universe with different versions of the characters. It's just stupid. IMO

It is It's a Wonderful Life because Dean  and Sam were not born to stop the Apocalypse.  That is the major point.  I think we are akso suoposed to be scared of any Michael now and Dean is so going to say yes to Michael to save Mary.

Bobby saying Mary is not to blame does not take away from the fact that she blames herself or that Dean does too.  I missed that part of the episode but I think the takeaway is that Mary feels guilt for her actions and has taken responsibility for how it affected her boys.  The other take away is that the Winchesters do have a positive effect on the world.  They make mistakes  it they do more good than harm and they fix their messes.  This is something they grapple with on an ongoing basis.  So it is important for them to understand this.

We really do not know all of the butterfly effects that happened over their to change things, if there were more than one. The only one we know is that Mary did not take the deal (presumed on my part) and the brothers were not born.   

[bearcatfan]

9 hours ago, Katy M said:

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

What would be the point of them not having another prophet though? That's taking another ally off the board.

I didn't mean Sam and Dean, I meant the writers.  But, I was actually wondering why S&D wouldn't have unplugged him.  It may be that they took him to the hospital thinking he could be helped and now they didn't have any power over whether or not he were unplugged because they're not next of kin.  But, I wouldn't expect them to kill him just so they could have another prophet, more just that he was dead already.  Like Charlie's mother.  Who presumably did have a soul.

That's exactly it. Once they took him to the hospital and he's on machines, they can't make the decision because they aren't family. Even if they were, there needs to be 2 EEGs usually performed 24 hours apart that show little to no brain activity before they will stop life support. Plus, if there's any brain swelling involved, they will wait for that to go down before making a decision. I've had 2 family members go through this. It's not something that happens quickly, especially if it wasn't expected. Charlie's mom was different because she had been in that state for years.

[Wayward Son]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Say what? What?? What???? What???

Are you serious? Where are you getting that from??

I’ve gotten that from the fact that when the AU first appeared they emphasised the differences between the two words were due to the fact that Sam and Dean were never born, and this episode explicitly states they were never born as AU!Mary turned down a demon deal.  IMO AU Bobby’s belief the differences between worlds shows our Mary made the right choice makes sense if you see it as follows. 

 

Mary 1 (our Mary) and Mary 2 (AU Mary) lived identical lives prior to the night Azazel offered her a death. They were both born to Deanna and Samuel Campbell, they both grew up in the hunter life and wanted out and ultimately both fell in love with John Winchester. The worlds went off on different paths starting with the night Azazel offered that deal. Mary 1 chose to take the deal and lived the life we’ve known about since the pilot. Mary 2 chose to reject the deal and stayed in the hunter life never able to truly move on from John until she was ultimately killed by some unknown demon. 

 

IMO, based on what we’ve been told so far, every difference between the worlds is a result of that one pivotal moment. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Wayward Son

[Castiels Cat]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Say what? What?? What???? What???

Are you serious? Where are you getting that from??

I agree with Wayward Son.  It is the Butterfly Effect.  One small change can affect everything, even something as simple as stepping on a butterfly.  Mary saying no to the deal is a big change.  Everything rhat is different could have evolved from that one difference and the writers seem to be pushing this interpretation.  DEAN and Sam not being born set off a chain of events rhat resulted in AU Apocalypse.  Once one realizes tb is one knows that Dean saying yes to crasy Cray Michael to save Mary is soo bad.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Mary 1 (our Mary) and Mary 2 (AU Mary) lived identical lives prior to the night Azazel offered her a death. They were both born to Deanna and Samuel Campbell, they both grew up in the hunter life and wanted out and ultimately both fell in love with John Winchester.

Where are you getting both Marys lived the exact same lives? I'm not being snarky. I don't remember that at all. They can't have lived the exact same lives.

 

3 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I agree with Wayward Son.  It is the Butterfly Effect.  One small change can affect everything, even something as simple as stepping on a butterfly.  Mary saying no to the deal is a big change.  Everything rhat is different could have evolved from that one difference and the writers seem to be pushing this interpretation.  DEAN and Sam not being born set off a chain of events rhat resulted in AU Apocalypse.  Once one realizes tb is one knows that Dean saying yes to crasy Cray Michael to save Mary is soo bad.

An alternate universe story is not a butterfly effect story. It's a completely different universe with different versions of these characters.

That Sam and Dean and Jack and Mary are in the AU NOW would be a butterfly effect in that world from the moment they crossed over because now they are potentially altering that world. They are potentially altering this world from when the Rift opened and they crossed over and back, but to say that everything was the same before 1973 I don't this is supported. 

But there is no butterfly effect unless it's essentially an alternate timeline in THIS universe. Not a completely different universe.

Dean was still in this universe when he went to the past and he was in an alternate future in THE END. Not a different universe. Not a different dimension.

[Castiels Cat]

18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think from the shows perspective this isn’t entirely true. I believe the show is trying to tell us that prior to Mary making that deal with Azazel for John’s life in 73 the characters were all the exact same. The differences between AU Mary, AU Bobby, AU Michael and our versions of them are entirely due to their different experiences since 1973. 

I agree.  It's an entire universe created by the fact that Mary did not take the deal. John stayed dead and Dean and Sam were never born.  What We see is the Butterfly Effect from Mary saying no.  .

In effect it is a real-time it's a wonderful life.  Clarence showed George what rhe world was like if he had never been born.  The writers are showing us what the world would be like if Dean and Sam were never born.  Considering Sam and Dean's depressive states they need to understand this too.  Therefore it is guaranteed that Mary lives long enough to tell them this.  No one else will be able to get it through their thick noggins.

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Where are you getting both Marys lived the exact same lives? I'm not being snarky. I don't remember that at all. They can't have lived the exact same lives

As I said IMO our world and AU world are the result of two different choices Mary Campbell made in 1973. One world she accepted the deal and the other she didn’t. That is why AU Bobby believes she made the right call making the deal because as sucky lives as Sam and Dean have left at least our world isn’t an apocalyptic mess.

 

Why could they not have lived identical lives before Mary did/didn’t make the deal with Azazel? 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Wayward Son

[Castiels Cat]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Where are you getting both Marys lived the exact same lives? I'm not being snarky. I don't remember that at all. They can't have lived the exact same lives.

 

An alternate universe story is not a butterfly effect story. It's a completely different universe with different versions of these characters.

That Sam and Dean and Jack and Mary are in the AU NOW would be a butterfly effect in that world from the moment they crossed over because now they are potentially altering that world. They are potentially altering this world from when the Rift opened and they crossed over and back, but to say that everything was the same before 1973 I don't this is supported. 

But there is no butterfly effect unless it's essentially an alternate timeline in THIS universe. Not a completely different universe.

Dean was still in this universe when he went to the past and he was in an alternate future in THE END. Not a different universe. Not a different dimension.

There are theories based on quantum physics that we exist in more than one state and whenever one of us make a a different choice a new universe is created.  One change equals a very different outcome.  This is the definition of the Butterfly Effect.  Anyhow this theory of alternate universes is a staple of sci fi.  They are not created to be different... They represent different futures.  Billie herself hinted at this when she talked about possible futures created by Dean's decision.  So yeah I think that this is the writers' intent. 

Someone else can explain it better. My eyes glaze over and my head hurts with this stuff.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

IMO, based on what we’ve been told so far, every difference between the worlds is a result of that one pivotal moment. 

I am legit floored by this reading. I can't get on board with this. I'm gonna need a lot more evidence that this is what the showrunners are intending before I buy this theory. Sorry. It's a different universe. It doesn't count in this universe.

 

8 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I agree.  It's an entire universe created by the fact that Mary did not take the deal. John stayed dead and Dean and Sam were never born.  What We see is the Butterfly Effect from Mary saying no.  .

No, no way. I completely disagree.  They are not the same people so there is no butterfly effect.

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Why could they not have lived identical lives before Mary did/didn’t make the deal with Azazel? 

There is no evidence either way. But that doesn't change these are not the same characters.  Mary1 and Mary2 are different people. Different lives.  Different existences. Nothing to do with each other. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by catrox14

[Castiels Cat]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’ve gotten that from the fact that when the AU first appeared they emphasised the differences between the two words were due to the fact that Sam and Dean were never born  due to Mary not making the deal she made in our world. IMO AU Bobby’s belief the differences between world shows our Mary made the right choice makes sense if you see it as follows. 

 

Mary 1 (our Mary) and Mary 2 (AU Mary) lived identical lives prior to the night Azazel offered her a death. They were both born to Deanna and Samuel Campbell, they both grew up in the hunter life and wanted out and ultimately both fell in love with John Winchester. The worlds went off on different paths starting with the night Azazel offered that deal. Mary 1 chose to take the deal and lived the life we’ve known about since the pilot. Mary 2 chose to reject the deal and stayed in the hunter life never able to truly move on from John until she was ultimately killed by some unknown demon. 

 

IMO, based on what we’ve been told so far, every difference between the worlds is a result of that one pivotal moment. 

I agree. I think it was implied in last season's finale... at least this was my assumptuon.  Apparently Bobby confirmed this last night.  Good to know.

Lord knows what happened to produce the Bad Place.

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I am legit floored by this reading. I can't get on board with this. I'm gonna need a lot more evidence that this is what the showrunners are intending before I buy this theory. Sorry. It's a different universe. It doesn't count in this universe.

 

No, no way. I completely disagree.  They are not the same people so there is no butterfly effect.

There is no evidence either way. But that doesn't change these are not the same characters.  Mary1 and Mary2 are different people. Different lives.  Different existences. Nothing to do with each other. 

I agree. By this reasoning did Rufus become Bobby's machine gun instead of the actual person that he was in the regular universe because Sam and Dean were never born? If you buy into this theory you have to do so all the way down the line with everything and everyone.

[Castiels Cat]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I am legit floored by this reading. I can't get on board with this. I'm gonna need a lot more evidence that this is what the showrunners are intending before I buy this theory. Sorry. It's a different universe. It doesn't count in this universe.

 

No, no way. I completely disagree.  They are not the same people so there is no butterfly effect.

There is no evidence either way. But that doesn't change these are not the same characters.  Mary1 and Mary2 are different people. Different lives.  Different existences. Nothing to do with each other. 

 

Something as simple as a dice roll can create a new universe according to some theories.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

"Level III: Many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanicsEdit

Hugh Everett III's many-worlds interpretation (MWI) is one of several mainstream interpretations of quantum mechanics.

In brief, one aspect of quantum mechanics is that certain observations cannot be predicted absolutely. Instead, there is a range of possible observations, each with a different probability. According to the MWI, each of these possible observations corresponds to a different universe. Suppose a six-sided die is thrown and that the result of the throw corresponds to a quantum mechanics observable. All six possible ways the die can fall correspond to six different universes.

Tegmark argues that a Level III multiverse does not contain more possibilities in the Hubble volume than a Level I or Level II multiverse. In effect, all the different "worlds" created by "splits" in a Level III multiverse with the same physical constants can be found in some Hubble volume in a Level I multiverse. Tegmark writes that, "The only difference between Level I and Level III is where your doppelgängersreside. In Level I they live elsewhere in good old three-dimensional space. In Level III they live on another quantum branch in infinite-dimensional Hilbert space."

Similarly, all Level II bubble universes with different physical constants can, in effect, be found as "worlds" created by "splits" at the moment of spontaneous symmetry breaking in a Level III multiverse.[61] According to Yasunori Nomura,[35]Raphael Bousso, and Leonard Susskind,[33] this is because global spacetime appearing in the (eternally) inflating multiverse is a redundant concept. This implies that the multiverses of Levels I, II, and III are, in fact, the same thing. This hypothesis is referred to as "Multiverse = Quantum Many Worlds".

Related to the many-worlds idea are Richard Feynman's multiple histories interpretation and H. Dieter Zeh's many-minds interpretation."

And Billie specifically refers to quantum physics and multiple outcomes based on Dean's decisions.

 

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=13.05_Advanced_Thanatology_(transcript)

Dean: Why do you care?
Billie: Because I do. Because…this whole multi-versal quantum construct we live in, it’s like a house of cards. And the last thing I need is some big, dumb Winchester knocking it all down.
Dean: Hmm. That does sound like us.
Billie: You’ve changed. When you bargained with me just now, you could’ve asked to go back, to live.
Dean: Well, I figured with you in charge, there’s no getting back for me.
Billie: That doesn’t sound like the Dean Winchester I know and love. The man who has been dead so many times but it never seems to stick. Maybe you’re not that guy anymore, they guy who saves the world, the guy who always thinks he’ll win no matter what. You have changed. And you tell people it’s not a big deal. You tell people you’ll work through it but you know you won’t, you can’t and that scares the hell out of you. Or… am I wrong?
Dean: What do you want me to say? Doesn’t matter. I don’t matter.
Billie: Don’t you?
Dean: I couldn’t save Mom. I couldn’t save Cas. I can’t even save a scared little kid. Sam keeps trying to fix it, but I just keep dragging him down. So I’m not going to beg. Okay, if it’s my time, it’s my time.
Billie: You really believe that. [Dean shakes his head yes] You wanna die. Dean…every notebook on this particular shelf tells a version of how you die. You specifically, heart attack, burned by a red-haired witch, stabbed by a ghoul in a graveyard, and on and on. But which one’s right? That depends on you, on the choices you make.
Dean: Well, I guess I made my choice. 
Billie: But…unfortunately none of these books say you die today.
Dean: Come again?
Billie: Since I got this…new job, I stand witness to a much larger picture. Do you know what I see? You. And your brother. You’re important.
Dean: Why?
Billie: You have work to do. That’s all you need to know. And trust me, having my eyes opened to the necessity of any humans, especially Winchesters, is not a thrill. So…you wanna die, but I say…keep living.
Dean: Hmm. I need to know. My mom–
Dean’s body suddenly comes to life with

Edited March 3, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

There are theories based on quantum physics that we exist in more than one state and whenever one of us make a a different choice a new universe is created.  One change equals a very different outcome.  This is the definition of the Butterfly Effect.  Anyhow this theory of alternate universes is a stsoke of sci to.  They are not created to be different... They represent different futures.  Billie herself hinted at this when she talked about possible futures created by Dean's decision.  So yeah I think that this is the writers' intent. 

Yeah I know about the multiverse theory.  Thanks. But I don't think this show is doing. I think this show was trying to create an Earth 1 and Earth 2 thing like in the DC verse.

Billie was talking about Dean's deaths in this world. Not Dean's existence or lack there of in another universe. That Dean's choices in this world would determine his fate in this world. Not his fate in another universe. What she is worried about is a Winchester affecting another universe.

She never said her library of death was across universes.  It was Dean in this universe. No others.

[Wayward Son]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I am legit floored by this reading. I can't get on board with this. I'm gonna need a lot more evidence that this is what the showrunners are intending before I buy this theory. Sorry. It's a different universe. It doesn't count in this universe.

I really don’t think I can offer much more evidence than I’ve given. So far, based on what we’ve been told, the two worlds have a pretty similar history. In both worlds Lucifer was cast down from heaven and in both worlds individuals such as Bobby Singer, Mary Campbell, and John Winchester were born. We also know that in both worlds Mary Campbell fell in love with John Winchester and she was offered a demon deal. 

 

Castiel states in 12x23 that the worlds are different because AU world is one where Sam and Dean were never born. This episode further develops this by telling us that the reason they weren’t born is that AU Mary said no to a demon deal and lost her John. All the explicit differences in worlds we’ve been told about take place after AU Mary’s refusal of the deal. The events prior to that seem to be quite similar based on what we’ve been told so far. 

 

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree although the conversation between Mary and Bobby in this episode makes a lot more sense if the two worlds are meant to be seen as ones which diverge from the night their respective Mary accepted or refused the deal. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree. By this reasoning did Rufus become Bobby's machine gun instead of the actual person that he was in the regular universe because Sam and Dean were never born? If you buy into this theory you have to do so all the way down the line with everything and everyone.

EXACTLY. Poor fucking Rufus!

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree. By this reasoning did Rufus become Bobby's machine gun instead of the actual person that he was in the regular universe because Sam and Dean were never born? If you buy into this theory you have to do so all the way down the line with everything and everyone.

One doesn’t exclude the other? Bobby could have easily named his gun after that worlds Rufus in memory of him. 

[Castiels Cat]

6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree. By this reasoning did Rufus become Bobby's machine gun instead of the actual person that he was in the regular universe because Sam and Dean were never born? If you buy into this theory you have to do so all the way down the line with everything and everyone.

I missed part of the episode.  Did Bobby explain why he called his machine gun Rufus... because if I had a beloved partner that died I might name my gun after him or a cat.

Mary doesn't save John.  At the least every person John might have saved is dead and every significant interaction that John might have had if he were alive does not happen.   This changes the future.

Likewise for Dean and Sam who are never born. And every person affected by their absence leads to more changes.  Every person influenced by them make a a different decision at some point.  The lives of every person affected by everyone they saved from dying  is now altered...

The effects are profound.

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

One doesn’t exclude the other? Bobby could have easily named his gun after that worlds Rufus in memory of him. 

Quote

I missed part of the episode.  Did Bobby explain why he called his machine gun Rufus... because if I had a beloved partner that died I might name my gun after him or a cat.

Yeah, I still don't buy the Butterfly Affect theory no matter how you slice it. But to each their own obviously.

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

EXACTLY. Poor fucking Rufus!

He was too awesome not to at least get a cameo in the AU!

Edited March 3, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yeah, I still don't buy the Butterfly Affect theory no matter how you slice it. But to each their own obviously.

Fair enough. 

 

Although. IMO that’s the belief AU Bobby was acting on in this episode, and that’s why he said Mary made the right choice as our world seems to be better off than his. Bobby may not be correct, fictional characters can be wrong after all, but that certainly seems to be what he believes. His words don’t make sense otherwise IMO. 

[DeeDee79]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

Fair enough. 

 

Although. IMO that’s the belief AU Bobby was acting on in this episode, and that’s why he said Mary made the right choice as our world seems to be better off than his. Bobby may not be correct, fictional characters can be wrong after all, but that certainly seems to be what he believes. His words don’t make sense otherwise IMO. 

That's fine because it's your opinion. It's just not mine. Miles quite obviously vary around here.

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

fictional characters can be wrong after all

I find it hilarious that you even said this.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

That's fine because it's your opinion. It's just not mine. Miles quite obviously vary around here.

I’m curious. If you think Bobby doesn’t believe in the butterfly effect. Why from your perspective did he say what he did?