Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[HoodlumSheep]

Here's me taking another stab at the timeline. Feel free to blow holes in my logic.

Okay:

1000 yrs before present Merlin gets magic.

500 yrs before present Merlin meets Nimue.

200 yrs ago refers to 200 years before Rumple becomes the DO. If we assume that happened 300 yrs ago from the present (not counting the 30 year freeze) the 200 before then would put us back to 500 yrs ago.

The "years earlier" could easily fit around the 500 year mark, but add a year or two (I don't know how long Nimlin knew each other before he proposed). In which case, A&E aren't going to have Merlin say "I've been around for 501-502 (or whatever) years, they'd just have him say 500. That'd give about 200 years (assuming Nimue became the DO soon after) for there to be 15-20ish Dark Ones before Rumple.

So, A&E should have axed the "years earlier" part because it adds confusion. And it'd be incredibly weird if they decided to switch between years before present and years before Rumple turned into the DO.

Does my timeline work? Did I miss something? Did I repeat something someone already suggested (it's hard to keep track)? Does my math suck? Am I an idiot for still trying to figure this out?

Also, who made the 1000 yr tree comment? I can't remember, because maybe the person didn't know the details and just assumed 1000 yrs

because Merlin became well known 1000 yrs ago?

So (not counting time freeze):

1000 yrs ago: merlin gets magic

~500 yrs ago: merlin meets Nimue

~500-498ish? Yrs ago: Merlin tells Nimue he's 500.

~500 yrs ago (200 years before Rumple turns into the DO): Nimue becomes the Dark One.

Multiple DO's in 200 yr period.

300 years ago: Rumple=DO

Edited November 11, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[pezgirl7]

That's pretty much what I said, and therefore thought the 200 years earlier title shown after a Camelot scene was just a straight out mistake (which I wish they would just fess up to). I also thought it strange that there would be so many Dark Ones in such a short period of time. There must have been a lot of power hungry people going around killing them all off. It's probably futile to try to figure out the time lines when the writer's don't seem to put much thought into them.

Edited November 11, 2015 by pezgirl7

[Shanna Marie]

I believe it was Hook who made a remark along the lines of "Not bad for someone who just spent a thousand years in a tree." And Merlin didn't correct him to say it was only 200 years or even 500 years. It's a big enough difference that you'd think he'd have cleared it up, the way Hook corrects Emma when she exaggerates his age. And I think there was some other reference earlier in the season that explained why Hook came up with the thousand-year figure. I just remember Hook's line because I might have watched that jailbreak scene a few times.

 

I could see them burning through Dark Ones pretty quickly. Rumple was supposed to be unusual in hanging on to it so long. Zoso actually wanted to die, so it seems as though there were a lot of power-hungry people out there and/or being the Dark One wears on a person's soul unless they have some motivation for hanging around.

[HoodlumSheep]

*edited because my ipod was being stupid.

Merlin doesn't quite seem like the guy who'd correct people. He seems too...chillaxed for that stuff. He's been around/known for a 1000 years, so maybe Hook just assumed he's been treed for all those years? No one except for Emma probably knows what went down with Nimue (and when). I don't know.

The 1000 yrs comment doesn't really bug me as much as the 200 yrs earlier part, because it can be taken as a bit of an exaggerated comment.

I don't know why I'm half-arguing about it. The only way it makes decent sense to me is if the time references are all __yrs from the present, but the 200 yrs ago is meant to be 200 years before Rumple becomes the DO. The math would work. Why they would use 2 time reference points (the present and Rumple turning evil) is a mystery, but they did the same thing with the Broken Kingdom timeline.

Like, the numbers work, but the events/people surrounding those numbers don't add up.

Blah. I wish they'd release another timeline. It probably wouldn't make sense, but at least we'd know what A&E were thinking.

Edited November 11, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Camera One]

They probably wanted the wonderful visual of the black hooded figures and the names on the Dagger changing like slot-machine pictures.  Thus, the multitudes of Dark Ones.  That leaves us to fanwank all the reasons why for them.

[Rumsy4]

Plus, thay probably thought up a new plot point that needs the creation of the first DO to have been just 200 years ago. But this is blatant retconning even for them!

Edited November 11, 2015 by Rumsy4

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm telling yah, if they meant 200 years before Rumple's Darkening, then it'd make a little more sense. You still have to do mental gymnastics, but at least it wouldn't directly contradict Rumple being the DO from 300 years ago. There could easily be 20 Dark Ones within a 200 year period of time before Rumple.

But sadly, they like to complicate things a lot.

Edited November 11, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Camera One]

We're lucky their CGI budget is limited, or I swear we would have gotten a crowd of Dark Ones stretching beyond the horizon.

[AnotherCastle]

Jane Espenson gets asked about the different 'Grails' in Skin Deep and Nimue. Her answers are...interesting:

• https://36.media.tumblr.com/0fd9f96047790476dd4871be2bf46fd5/tumblr_nxo0hbBGxJ1rppzkpo1_1280.png
• https://41.media.tumblr.com/a116ce668cf35c843f590a529e59324c/tumblr_nxo0hbBGxJ1rppzkpo3_1280.png
• https://40.media.tumblr.com/978fb333efe21d6fcd152df665136285/tumblr_nxo0hbBGxJ1rppzkpo2_1280.png

[HoodlumSheep]

^ so all the fake replicas are glamored objects of mystery...ooOooohhh. Not.

I guess that answer covers the fake sorcerer's hat we've seen in the background too.

[Mari]

In the last link, Espenson's final comment was "We didn't know then that we'd tell this story."

So, basically, you retconned. Its interesting that she just came right out and admitted it--isn't the usual track record for this show to admit it had been that way all along?

[KingOfHearts]

Why would Rumple disguise it as the Holy Grail? What do Titans have to do with anything? I can bet there's multiple magical chalices, but a titan's heart as one? Where the heck does that come from? I know Rumple's vain, but fake objects seem kind of lowbrow for him. He's got enough powerful trinkets of magic that have proven to be real. Heck, there's a whole vault full of them several stories tall.

 

I'm okay with a Holy Grail retcon, but there are much less convoluted answers to give.

Edited November 11, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

eh! That episode was all the way back in season 1. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with dialogue and action retcon.

 

Did she hint at Cronus' heart? The whole thing is just weird. I also don't know how to read tweets, so there's that.

Edited November 11, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Camera One]

Wouldn't it make more sense to disguise it as some useless household object that nobody would take?  Ooh let me glamor my passport so it looks like a priceless artifact made out of solid gold!

 

So, basically, you retconned. Its interesting that she just came right out and admitted it--isn't the usual track record for this show to admit it had been that way all along?

 

Well, there was an amazing bunch of convoluted roundabout answers she gave until someone pointed out that Robert Carlyle said it was the Grail.

[Mari]

True.

Honestly, I don't care about retcons if they make sense and don't damage the story that came before it. It's just that TS, TW are not particularly gifted at that, so they usually come out as clumsy, all the while we're being told "Fooled you! Was that way all along! Aren't you a dolt?"

Edited November 11, 2015 by Mari

[Camera One]

Yeah, it's unavoidable and of all the retcons, at least this doesn't damage characters and drag them through the mud.  It's just there's only so much BS a human can take.  I'm sure I could take much more if I were the Savior.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't have a problem with them retconning random magical objects You see in the background sometimes when there's a Rumple's Castle scene.

One of the Titan's hearts disguised as another priceless object? That's sketchy and I find that more insulting than the whole retcon admittance. I can believe them when they said they didn't plan that far in advance for Camelot. They probably just wanted to fill Rumple's house with cool-looking stuff.

[Rumsy4]

The heart of Kronos disguised to appear as the Grail?? What an utterly crappy way to explain away a continuity error, and on twitter no less! Either she should not have admitted it was a retcon AFTER giving that convoluted explanation (say it was a deleted scene or something). Or she could have been upfront with some self-deprecating humor. This is dishonest and insulting to our intelligence.

[RadioGirl27]

 Adam clarifies the timeline

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA

#OnceUponATime timeline clarification -- there was an error on a title card Sunday.  It should've read "500 years earlier" not "200" sorry!

[HoodlumSheep]

Jane's digging herself into a giant hole.

I'll take a guess that the fake sorcerer's hat is the Golden Fleece, because why not?

Praise Adam!!!!! He admitted there was a mistake in the title card! I wonder if they'll fix that for the dvd release?

*he said it's going to get fixed.

Edited November 11, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[InsertWordHere]

I knew that had to be an error! It was contradicted in the very same episode!

Okay OUAT timeline, I retract what I said, you and I aren't done. For now anyway.

[Shanna Marie]

The 500 years makes a lot more sense but still doesn't reconcile with the 1,000 years mentioned in just the previous episode. It's like they only vaguely remembered that and used the 1,000 years number for the start of Merlin's story.

 

Timelines and calendars are your friends, especially when you're writing something that takes place in multiple time periods with backstories that overlap. They need one of those things like you see in history books, with the timelines showing what's going on in various places at a particular time and how events overlap each other, and they need to put that together at the start of each arc, and reconcile it with what's already been shown on screen. That avoids a lot of problems.

[Camera One]

How should they have rectified that?  1500 years ago for the desert scene with Merlin, and then 1000 years ago for Nimue intro?  They probably wanted it to be a surprise that Nimue put him into a tree.  So maybe 1500 years ago for the desert scene, and "Years Later" for the Nimue intro.  

[YaddaYadda]

How should they have rectified that?  1500 years ago for the desert scene with Merlin, and then 1000 years ago for Nimue intro?  They probably wanted it to be a surprise that Nimue put him into a tree.  So maybe 1500 years ago for the desert scene, and "Years Later" for the Nimue intro.  

 

They gave a timeline with numbers for a reason. I'm sure it will come back before the end of the season. The whole he was treed for 1000 years, they can just explain it away as the time that passed in the tree was that long, but in the outside world, time moved normally. Merlin was technically treed for something like 530 years?

[Curio]

 Adam clarifies the timeline

 

Wow, I'm actually impressed he admitted the mistake. I figured he'd just brush it under the rug like all the other plot holes.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm surprised it took him this long to say it was a mistake. Although, maybe they triple checked to make sure that it was wrong and couldn't actually work out in some convoluted way.

[Camera One]

They probably had a big pow-wow to see how they could spin it, but could see no other alternative.  Expect more "many years later" in the future.

[HoodlumSheep]

I'd rather have "many years later/ago," etc. than actual numbers if the timeline gets that confusing (like in Broken Kingdom--so many numbers!). then there'd be less chance of a screw up.

Edited November 12, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[babyPhat279]

A little bit separate, but how are Hook and Gold around 300? I thought Hook and Baelfire were in Neverland for about 80-90 years. Wouldn't that put Hook, Gold and Baelfire in the 100-150 year range? I feel like that's a big difference.

 

Also I can't believe I didn't notice until now, but does Gold not have a first name? I mean, besides Rumplestiltskin?

[Faemonic]

A little bit separate, but how are Hook and Gold around 300? I thought Hook and Baelfire were in Neverland for about 80-90 years. Wouldn't that put Hook, Gold and Baelfire in the 100-150 year range? I feel like that's a big difference.

 

Also I can't believe I didn't notice until now, but does Gold not have a first name? I mean, besides Rumplestiltskin?

 

Where was it said that Hook and Bae occupied Neverland for 80-90 years? They could have spent two centuries there.

 

As for Rumple's name, A&E answered that in a panel hosted by Yvette Nicole Brown. They stammered a bit with each other but decided on "Barbara". I prefer Robert Carlyle's headcanon where I think it was Ichabod? But there's no canon first name that I know of.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Faemonic

[Curio]

Also I can't believe I didn't notice until now, but does Gold not have a first name? I mean, besides Rumplestiltskin?

 

We'll probably find that out during the final episode of the series.

 

On that note, what was David's last name in the Enchanted Forest? Were we just supposed to assume it was Charming? I thought that was just a nickname Snow gave him, but Regina always refers to them as The Charmings, which makes it sound like a last name.

[babyPhat279]

I'm getting the 80-90 years because Peter Pan takes place around the turn of the century and Neal landed first with the Darlings. Then he left and landed here and aged a bit, then met Emma, around 2000. Then I'm adding a bit to Hook and Gold because they were already a bit older.

[Rumsy4]

One doesn't even need title cards. The dialogues alone should be enough. For example, Merlin told Nimue that he was 500 years old. We already know that Rumple/Hook are about 200 from the Hook/Emma conversation in Season 4A. We could fill in the gaps. There was no need to be more specific than that, especially because the title cards contradicted all the timelines presented so far, including the implication in a previous episode that Merlin was tree-ed for a 1000 years.

 

This only reinforces my conviction that the writers write each episode in a bubble. They don't bother to check transcripts to make sure there is a smooth narrative flow. That's why there very little temporal or emotional continuity between episodes. For example, we have Emma taking Violet's heart out even after a date with her hot bf made Head!Rumple disappear.Or why Merida/Belle/Lance's absence is not commented upon by anyone. When the writers can't be bothered to maintain continuity between episodes, it's too much to expect series-wide continuity. 

 

ETA: 

 

I'm getting the 80-90 years because Peter Pan takes place around the turn of the century and Neal landed first with the Darlings.

 

I agree. But the writers stick to the 200/300 timeline for Rumple/Hook for some unknown reason. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

They're all over the map with Hook and Rumple's ages. Hook himself has said "closer to 200." In interviews, the writers have said he was 300, but I think they've changed that a few times. It depends on which episode they're talking about. The timeline with Bae works out a lot better if he only spent about a century in Neverland, and I guess if he was around 30 when he went to Neverland and then there's the 28 years of the curse, that would round up to 200.

 

David was a peasant in the Enchanted Forest, so he may not have a last name. Actually, few of the characters had last names we know of. We don't know Belle's last name, "Mills" was only Regina's Storybrooke identity. I've never been sure if Rumple's name is actually Rumple Stiltskin (first and last) or just Rumplestiltskin. I think Regina's just being snarky in referring to Snow and Charming as "the Charmings," since "Charming" is just a nickname (and it irks me that people other than Snow call him that because it's like everyone in town calling him Pookie or Sweetie). I think last names in the Enchanted Forest are the exception rather than the rule. There are the Jones brothers, but I can't think of anyone else with a definite last name off the top of my head.

[HoodlumSheep]

Well if you go by his "200" comment in 4a since he was a kid. That give him at least 10-15 years before that (I don't know what the cut off age is for not being a kid. 13-14 about I guess. And you don't know if he's including the 30ish year time freeze nonsense. So 13ish+200 since he was a kid + 30 is about 243ish. Either way, he's 200+ no matter how you look at it. Also, you don't know how long they actually were on neverland for. So 300 isn't far off. And usually when Colin/Robert/A&E talk about it they typically range from 200-300+ yrs. old.

So 200-300 seems about right. I don't really need a more specific age beyond that. It could be anywhere between 2-3 centuries. The numbers probably just kind of mash together.

Who knows, maybe Hook is insecure about his old age and rounded it down a whole century. :P

Edited November 12, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[InsertWordHere]

The only firm date in our world that we have is the time period of the Darlings in London. That is the timeline I think Once should go by with regard to the ages of Hook/Bae/Rumple. Of course that date could be off because Blue said she sent Bae through time and space. We've never seen beans go through time before, but since they've made beans a lot more accessible in later seasons, and they have stated that beans couldn't take people to the Land Without Magic when there was no curse, maybe Bae's bean was a superpowered bean.

[Mathius]

Wasn't it just Hook who said Merlin was in the tree for 1000 years?  He may have just been guessing there.  Unless Merlin himself said that he was trapped for 1000 years (correct me if he did), then I wouldn't take it at face value.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Mathius

[Camera One]

Hook said it to Merlin, who replied "Just like riding a bike".

[pezgirl7]

I thought the writers said the Darlings didn't live in our world, but some other land similar to ours. Therefore we don't know what year it was when Baelfire ended up there. I might be remembering that wrong though.

I also think it's possible that Hook had been in Neverland for a while before Bae showed up. Bae went through a portal, so he could have went 100 years into the future, so then when he ended up in Neverland, 100 years had gone by for Hook.

Edited November 12, 2015 by pezgirl7

[Mathius]

No, the Darlings did live in our world. You're confusing them with the writers' statement about the Victorian setting in the Wonderland spinoff, THAT was the world similar to our's but not.

Hook said it to Merlin, who replied "Just like riding a bike".

Still no confirmation from Merlin, so I'm going with Hook just making a wild guess there. Edited November 12, 2015 by Mathius

[Camera One]

If it wasn't a thousand years, why wouldn't he say otherwise?  Of course, there's a ton of wiggle room for whatever the writers want to make up next, but generally, if someone doesn't contradict, they are implying that they agree.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ well, technically Hook never refuted Emma when she guessed he was "like 300" when she asked him out on a date, but according to Adam, Hook is closer to 200.

Quick, people with far greater than me! Did Rumple or anyone else specifically state that he was 300, 300+ or does the idea that Rumple was the DO for only about 200 yrs (so he'd be ~240-250ish?) hold true?

I'd post a screenshot of the convo, bit my elderly ipod refuses to just copy and paste the image (or do I have to imbed it?), so here's a twitter link I guess:

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/664560195826089984?p=v

Read the whole conversation.

I wonder if that includes the 28 yr time freeze? Even without it, that'd still put Hook at about 230ish wouldn't it? Because if Rumple

Was the DO for 200 yrs plus his age at the time (40-50?), he'd be about 250?

I'm probably gonna bug Adam about it in a another hour or two (politely of course). He probably won't respond, but if Adam claims Rumple was the DO for 200 yrs (or a little less). That cements Rumple's and Hook's ages around 220-250ish in my opinion.

Edited November 12, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

Actually Merlin and Nimue meeting 500 years into it makes more sense. We don't know how long she was the Dark One, but I find she still fits the timeline well enough.

 

If Rumple was the Dark One for about 200 years, then it still leaves 300 years. Maybe these Dark Ones like Zoso were desperate to get out of it. Rumple stayed alive that long because he wanted to get his son back, so he had a goals, and he had his dagger.

 

I wonder if in the end, these Dark Ones didn't feel it was just easier to finally die, than to just be around if they had nothing. 

 

Also, maybe the writers should agree with how old Hook is. They don't even agree on that. In 4x06, he says he's about 200. Then the next day in the press, A or E says he is 350. Emma in 4x08 says her family spans 400 years.

 

Hi, which is it?

[HoodlumSheep]

Adam used the word "hyperbole." In one of his tweets, so he acknowledges that they've just been throwing out numbers.

[Camera One]

Adam had no memory that Hook actually said "Closer to 200" until a fan tweeted the transcript.  Before that, he wrote "I'm not sure we ever gave an exact age for Hook. pretty sure we've referred to it only in hyperbole.  but he's OLD."  

 

So in terms of "How long was Merlin in the tree?", there are two possibilities:

 

1. At the time of writing "The Bear and the Bow", they had not decided on a timeline yet, so the writer just threw in 1000 years.  Why set up a timeline before a half-season arc if you don't have to?

 

2. Whoever wrote "The Bear and the Bow" didn't communicate with whoever wrote "Nimue".  Why communicate?  Who cares if anything is consistent?  Viewers will make excuses for us and find a way to make it work anyway.

 

There is even less motivation for them to work out the Hook/Rumple timeline stuff since it spans multiple seasons, and apparently characters in Storybrooke and the Enchanted Forest like randomly guessing and throwing in random numbers since they never talk about anything anyway.  Why would Emma ask specifics about Hook's past?  Why would Snowing talk to Emma about their family history?  Actually, why do they need to talk at all?

Edited November 12, 2015 by Camera One

[Mathius]

Missed the previous topic of conversation...

WTF, Jane? All you needed to say was simply that Rumple enchanted a cup to look like the Holy Grail, ditto for other such objects...Rumple using deception to make it look like he has more than he does is VERY in character for him. But a beating heart of a Titan!? What kind of thought process leads someone to make a heart look like a cup!?

Lemme guess...that Titan heart is gonna be in play during 5B (Hades, Herc, Meg...Titans would naturally follow suit), so that's why she made it the answer.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

 

Lemme guess...that Titan heart is gonna be in play during 5B (Hades, Herc, Meg...Titans would naturally follow suit), so that's why she made it the answer.

I was also thinking maybe they'd use it in a future episode, but then I remember the writers aren't that clever. They're not going to explain a throwaway prop from S1 all the way into 5B just to retcon the Holy Grail. And if that were their plans, I doubt Jane would announce it on Twitter. Either way, it doesn't end up well.

 

It does say directly in the script that is the Holy Grail in 1x12.

Edited November 12, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

She could've just given us the line they keep repeating on the show. "Dark One lies, Dark One manipulates."

[babyPhat279]

As for there being so many dark ones, I think Rumple had more motivation (finding his son), thus holding on to it longer.

[Mathius]

I was also thinking maybe they'd use it in a future episode, but then I remember the writers aren't that clever. They're not going to explain a throwaway prop from S1 all the way into 5B just to retcon the Holy Grail. And if that were their plans, I doubt Jane would announce it on Twitter. Either way, it doesn't end up well.

 

No, I don't mean that they'll show it having been disguised as the Grail, just that it'll play some part.  If not, then Jane just made it up because she has Greek mythology on the brain due to the current story arc being written.  Even so, the sheer WEIRDNESS of it kills me.  A heart?  Really?  Of ALL things to make look like the Grail?  A still-beating Titan heart!?

Edited November 13, 2015 by Mathius