Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[KingOfHearts]

The color of the heart wasn't what bothered me. The glamour reasoning is passable, but... the fact Zelena was able to be subtle for more than 2.4 seconds is the dealbreaker. There is no freaking way the Queen of Cackling could masquerade as Robin's meek and understanding wife for so long. 

 

If Zelena were back in Storybrooke, wouldn't she try to get her pendant back and reactivate the time spell?

Edited July 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

the fact Zelena was able to be subtle for more than 2.4 seconds is the dealbreaker. There is no freaking way the Queen of Cackling could masquerade as Robin's meek and understanding wife for so long.

Maybe the glamor spell glamored her personality, too, like a filter?

Or, no, that was just terrible retcon.

[RadioGirl27]

Maybe the glamor spell glamored her personality, too, like a filter?

Or, no, that was just terrible retcon.

It's a MAGICAL glamour. It's super powerful!!!

Sometimes I wonder why I keep watching this show.

Edited July 27, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[YaddaYadda]

It's sad, because I laughed at Adam's reply.  I think they thought about it only after viewers started asking why Zelena's heart was so red.  Maybe they shouldn't have removed that heart, period.  How can a glamour spell be so powerful that it changes the person's heart inside when clearly, Zelena hadn't changed at all once she was in NYC even disguised as Marian.

 

Anyway...I side eye that magical pendant too that worked in NY.  It's one thing if someone is inherently magical, but a magical artifact working like nobody's business is a bit much.

[orza]

It's sad, because I laughed at Adam's reply.  I think they thought about it only after viewers started asking why Zelena's heart was so red.  Maybe they shouldn't have removed that heart, period.  How can a glamour spell be so powerful that it changes the person's heart inside when clearly, Zelena hadn't changed at all once she was in NYC even disguised as Marian.

 

Anyway...I side eye that magical pendant too that worked in NY.  It's one thing if someone is inherently magical, but a magical artifact working like nobody's business is a bit much.

A glamour spell is an illusion that changes a person's physical appearance to others. It doesn't touch his personality, motivations, mental capabilities etc. I can buy that a glamour spell would influence the appearance of body parts that are normally not visible. Also, the whole freeze Marion storyline only came about because Christie Lang suddenly was not available for a big chunk of time due to another project. Sometimes they have to come up with stuff on the fly to solve real-world production problems.

[daxx]

I am ok with the pendant working in New York since Hook's memory potion did as well. We have to accept that items imbued with magical properties can maintain those properties in the real world, just like Pinochio didn't change back to lifeless wood.

[Camera One]

Also, the whole freeze Marion storyline only came about because Christie Lang suddenly was not available for a big chunk of time due to another project.

 

Really?!  That is a huge change in the storyline if she wasn't meant to be on ice for the entire 4A.  

 

Well, anyhow, if that were the case, why didn't they give her a few more scenes in the 4.1/4.2/4.3 or at the end of 4A for Robin and Marion reuniting, Robin sensing something was "off" about Marion, and if not that, being frustrated with not being able to feel the same love for her that was so strong before?  If they had really planned all along that Marian was Zelena in disguise.

 

To me, problems that arise from limited availability from an actor better be reflected in maximum usage of that actor while they are onscreen.  

Edited July 27, 2015 by Camera One

[Mari]

To me, problems that arise from limited availability from an actor better be reflected in maximum usage of that actor while they are onscreen.

And a plausible reason for the disappearance. If you haven't planted any seeds at all that sane, serious Marian is actually scenery chewing crazy cakes Zelena, and she actually -wasn't- Zelena all along until you needed her to be? Find another way to bring Zelena back and have Marian dump Robin or get hit by a bus or something.

[orza]

They can't do additional scenes if the actor is not available or the network will not approve paying for additional filming days or won't give approval to rewrite already approved scripts to give more screen time to a recurring character.in a supporting role. It's a business. A lot of stuff people complain about are not really in A&E's control.

[KingOfHearts]

 

And a plausible reason for the disappearance. If you haven't planted any seeds at all that sane, serious Marian is actually scenery chewing crazy cakes Zelena, and she actually -wasn't- Zelena all along until you needed her to be? Find another way to bring Zelena back and have Marian dump Robin or get hit by a bus or something.

Here's the difference between "shocking reveal" and "contrivance". Twists and reveals are setup with seeds. Examples include Cora being killed with the candle, Rumple's intentions to find his son, and Cruella's inability to murder others. There were hints that didn't give it away, but when you look back at them you realize what they were setting up. A contrivance is when there is little to absolutely no setup whatsoever before it happens. Examples include the gauntlet that revealed Rumple's treachery to Belle, Regina's ability to use light magic in 3B, and the AU Savior blood. There is no evidence in the canon to support that the writers planned these things all along.

 

Zelena/Marian fits into the contrivance category. You could have had her never be Zelena and it wouldn't make a difference. There was nothing to separate the two at all. Robin didn't recognize that his own wife was actually the Wicked Witch, yet all Emma has to do to sense something's off with Hook is look at him. I know she has an alleged super power, but come on - why would you not be able to recognize the person you would "walk through hell" to be with? Is the mother of your child really that hard to point out? I guess it's not his fault though, since Zarian was written exactly the same as Marian.

 

Zelena is about as subtle as a freight train. I have a hard time believing even Regina didn't sense something was off about a dead wife coming back to life.

Edited July 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

They can't do additional scenes if the actor is not available or the network will not approve paying for additional filming days or won't give approval to rewrite already approved scripts to give more screen time to a recurring character.

 

While this might be true sometimes, there's no reason Adam & Eddy couldn't have told Marian's actress to portray her character more mischievously throughout 4A. They already hired her for a set amount of episodes and supposedly knew about the Zelena "twist" when they were breaking the stories over the summer, so they should have been able to plant small clues here and there leading up to the big reveal. A little smirk when Marian sees Regina upset or an eye roll whenever Regina walks into the room could have gone a long way sprinkled throughout 4A. But as it played out on screen, I don't even think Adam & Eddy told the actress she was secretly playing another character until the episode it was revealed. I understand wanting to keep a secret from the audience, but that's kind of important information Christie should have known about in 4A so she could have played the character differently.

[Mari]

And if she was available for the reveal episode--and the actress was--have a good reason for Zelena being able to fool everyone for a long period of time. Like KingOfHearts pointed out, this was not something that is reasonably consistent with Zelena's character. She's been incapable of being subtle and understated, and jealousy makes her extra irrational. Have Zelena suddenly take possession of her, or have Zelena have put herself under a memory spell that was timed to wear off for maximum angst.

This was A&E's fault to an extent, even if Lang was unavailable afterwards. As I pointed out, having Marian get hit by a bus would disappear her. If they wanted the possibility of future drama, so would a note left on the table before she took off because she couldn't stand being with Robin any longer knowing how he truly felt.

[Faemonic]

there's no reason Adam & Eddy couldn't have told Marian's actress to portray her character more mischievously throughout 4A. They already hired her for a set amount of episodes and supposedly knew about the Zelena "twist" when they were breaking the stories over the summer (...) that's kind of important information Christie should have known about in 4A so she could have played the character differently.

To my understanding, this show has never been run like that. Isn't it that all the actors are always only a few episodes ahead of the audience because they get the script to read and know their lines? But never beyond that. They're never sat down and told...well, any important information that they should know about so that they could play the character differently.

[orza]

It's pretty standard in TV that actors don't know much beyond the current episode. Some key actors may be briefed about the big picture for their characters but not the details of how everything goes down.There are countless stories of producers holding back script pages until the moment when the actors film a scene or writing and even filming multiple fake endings of an episode to avoid spoiler leakage. Giving a minor actress in a recurring role spoilery info about future episodes and seasons is unheard of.

 

I don't find anything wrong with how the Marion/Zelena reveal was handled. We saw that Zelena could control herself just fine when she was masquerading as a midwife to get close to Snow.

[Curio]

To my understanding, this show has never been run like that. Isn't it that all the actors are always only a few episodes ahead of the audience because they get the script to read and know their lines? But never beyond that. They're never sat down and told...well, any important information that they should know about so that they could play the character differently.

 

Yep, you're correct—that's how Adam & Eddy and many TV show executives choose to run their shows, but it's not necessarily the best way. I'm sorry, but if J.K. Rowling thought it was imperative to tell Alan Rickman a huge spoiler years in advance about Snape because it would impact the way he played his part, I think television writers can trust that their actors won't tell a secret for a couple weeks if it's important that their character is played a specific way. There are some instances where the actors might know enough information—but not all—to still give some subtle hints to the audience about what's going on even though they don't exactly know what's going on in the scripts either. For example, I think Colin did a decent enough job portraying how much he gave up for Emma and the loneliness he felt throughout 3B, even though he didn't know he gave up his Jolly Roger until the final script.

 

I don't find anything wrong with how the Marion/Zelena reveal was handled. We saw that Zelena could control herself just fine when she was masquerading as a midwife to get close to Snow.

 

This might just come down to a matter of opinion with the acting. Personally, I thought Zelena was still a pretty bad scene-chewer in her midwife scenes, and it should have been obvious to our oblivious heroes she was the main villain. There's that scene when Grumpy busts into Granny's and she looks around franticly and ditches the scene that was played way over the top. There were no scenes like that with Christie's Marion because she didn't know the big reveal.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

There could have been some indications that things were fishy with Marian, even if the writers did not tell anything to the actress. For example, Robin could have told Will that he seems unable to connect with his wife as before. Or the camera pans to Marian giving some kind of a stare at Regina, etc. I think Marian-being-Zelena-all-along was probably a retcon. But it's also possible that A&E simply didn't have the time to deal with throwing hints about Marian with the million other plots going on in 4A. 

Edited July 27, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

For example, Robin could have told Will that he seems unable to connect with his wife as before.

 

It might've worked if Robin was interested in connecting with his wife in the first place.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't think Christie Lang needed to be explicitly told she was Zelena in order to drop hints. Like Mari said, give her an eye-roll or a smirk after her encounters with Regina. In S1, we saw Regina walk down the stairs and grab the book like she knew something. It was subtle without being too obvious, but it sent the message across to the audience. Even the crappy Pappa Pan twist had a setup having very little to do with the acting and more with the writing. (like Rumple crying over the doll.)

 

Unless someone can quote it, I seriously doubt A&E were planning the Zarian reveal before/during 4A. Only a few of the crazier theorists (like myself) looked into the possibility, and that had as much proof as August working for Pan. Perhaps they didn't know if they could secure Rebecca Mader, so they played it off as ambiguous? 

Edited July 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[orza]

Perhaps they didn't know if they could secure Rebecca Mader, so they played it off as ambiguous?

This is the most likely explanation. They may have started planning this story line early but couldn't do much with it until contracts were signed. Dropping hints about a storyline before you know if you can actually do it is a bad idea, It happens sometimes, but it is better to avoid that, if  possible.

[Curio]

The funny thing is that it would have been in character for Marian to be upset with Regina, so there wouldn't have been anything strange with her giving Regina an eye roll here and there. She had every right as the real Marian to be pissed at Regina because it was only days earlier that Regina was tormenting her in the past. So if the writers weren't 100% sure they could have locked down Mader, they still could have played any mean behavior as Marian's real personality, but hoping in the back of their minds it was actually Zelena. That's why I feel like Adam & Eddy didn't come up with the "twist" until much later than they say they did.

[Camera One]

Exactly, what Curio said.  Since we as the audience had no idea what Marion used to be like, having her be super unforgiving and angry at Regina PLUS giving Robin a line that he couldn't feel what he used to feel for Marian wouldn't have given anything away, and could have worked even if they never got Mader back (would have wished upon a star to have her join another hit show instead).

[orza]

Yes, they could have done lots of things, but they decided not to and that is a valid decision. There are many good reasons to forgo all the stuff you are suggesting, the most important being $$$. Filming reaction shots costs time and money. It is not good use of available budget to spend it filming material that they may not be able to use. First and foremost Adam and Eddy are running a business and that reality drives a lot of creative decisions.

Edited July 27, 2015 by orza

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yes, they could have done lots of things, but they decided not to and that is a valid decision. There are many good reasons to forgo all the stuff you are suggesting, the most important being $$$. Filming reaction shots costs time and money. It is not good use of available budget to spend it filming material that they may not be able to use. First and foremost Adam and Eddy are running a business and that reality drives a lot of creative decisions.

Then there's Will, a character they did almost nothing with. I'm sure it costs more to sign on a regular than it does to get a few reaction shots. If we want to talk about wastes of money, then he's the prime example. They inserted hints of history in 4A with the Alice in Wonderland book and some talk about Anastasia, then he went on to spend most of his time awkwardly standing around in scenes about other characters.

 

Like what Curio said, at least some reactions would have helped either way. We could see a bit more of what Marian was feeling, which was sorely lacking even if she was real. I could give a list of things that did not need those few extra seconds of budget in 4A.

 

 

Though we still have the continuity issue of Zelena having had no way to know who Marian was to know that impersonating this person would allow her to hurt Regina.

Even if Zelena knew Marian = Robin's wife, she didn't know her enough to impersonate her over a long period of time. It's still stupid to me that she so easily fooled her own husband.

Edited July 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

The "Zarian" part that feels particularly retconny to me is the 4A finale where Marian is being all "I can see that you're in love and I won't stand in your way because I don't want to be the second choice." Not only is her behavior way too subtle for Zelena to have pulled off without cracking in some way, but I can't figure out what Zelena's motivation would have been in playing it that way. Subtle psychological and emotional manipulation isn't her style, so would she have bothered pretending to take the high road and make Regina think for five minutes that she was going to end up with Robin before yanking the rug out from under her? And given Robin's behavior, she was taking a lot on faith that either Robin or Regina would make the sacrificial choice and leave with her (since it seems like the freezing heart, has to leave town thing was faked, given that she was able to come back with no ill effects). Was Zelena's grand revenge scheme really to go to a world where her magic didn't work and live a poor existence in a crummy apartment with a man who was forcing himself to be with her, leaving Regina alone but feeling like a hero?

 

I can see Marian, the way she was depicted, behaving that way, but I can't see Zelena pulling it off or wanting to pull it off. If Zelena had been posing as Marian, would she really have praised Regina and acted accepting of Regina and Robin's love, or would she have pulled Robin into a tug of war and screamed about Regina's crimes against her, bringing up Regina's terrible past?

 

Though we still have the continuity issue of Zelena having had no way to know who Marian was to know that impersonating this person would allow her to hurt Regina.

[Curio]

I guess it's a moot point debating something that can't be fixed, but it's the summer hiatus, so...oh well. I have a hard time believing the botched Zarian 4A characterization was a time or money issue when Adam & Eddy were given the perfect opportunity to add in an extra scene when ABC offered to extend 4A an extra episode. And the extra episode gift was late enough in the season (was it Episode 8?) where they should have known by then what the twist was. So, instead of using that opportunity to expand on one of their biggest surprise twists in 4B and giving Marian/Zelena a little extra screen time with Robin to build towards that twist, they instead gave us some useless crypt sex and an adultery talk between Snow and Regina that didn't do much to help the plot or characterizations. But, like I said, it's a moot point since we can't go back and change what's on screen.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Curio

[Camera One]

I don't think it's a moot point to discuss something that can't be fixed.  It's not like we can change anything plot or character related on the show anyways, and we still discuss that, LOL.

 

Was Zelena's grand revenge scheme really to go to a world where her magic didn't work and live a poor existence in a crummy apartment with a man who was forcing himself to be with her, leaving Regina alone but feeling like a hero?

 

I can see Marian, the way she was depicted, behaving that way, but I can't see Zelena pulling it off or wanting to pull it off. If Zelena had been posing as Marian, would she really have praised Regina and acted accepting of Regina and Robin's love, or would she have pulled Robin into a tug of war and screamed about Regina's crimes against her, bringing up Regina's terrible past?

 

Yes, from 3B, magic was extremely important to Zelena, a source of pride, and it was what gave her validation.  And why on earth would she have waited so long to call Regina and gloat?  In fact, it was Regina who initiated the call.  Heck, why not have Zarian come back to Storybrooke on pretense she had been cured and then sneak into Regina's vault and take the magic necklace thing back and re-start the time portal?  Because that would have been so last year!  If we had seen Zelena desperate for a man and a family that would be one thing, but we've never seen that.  It comes back to what KingofHearts defined as a contrivance.  Every aspect of Zarian was a contrivance.  Looking back, nothing makes sense.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

I don't think it's a moot point to discuss something that can't be fixed.  It's not like we can change anything plot or character related on the show anyways, and we still discuss that, LOL.

Heh, I suppose you're right. Sometimes, I feel like we should rename this forum Once Upon A What Could Have Been... because we always end up discussing hypotheticals and how to fix scenes/characters instead of the actual canon.

 

Every aspect of Zarian was a contrivance. Looking back, nothing makes sense.

Same with the egg baby plot. I can't go back and rewatch earlier seasons of Snow and Charming and believe their characters could have done that. The sad thing is that there's a lot of rich continuity the writers could pull from (here we go with hypotheticals again!), like actually having Emma address Regina's murder of Graham when Regina was yelling at Emma for ruining her budding romance, or the writers actually giving us a flashback of what Hook had to do to trade the magical bean instead of giving it away in a 10 second throwaway line.

[Camera One]

Heh, I suppose you're right. Sometimes, I feel like we should rename this forum Once Upon A What Could Have Been... because we always end up discussing hypotheticals and how to fix scenes/characters instead of the actual canon

 

Pointing out the inconsistencies goes hand in hand with how they could potentially have been fixed (pretty easily in most cases), along with potential reasons for the errors.  So I think we should feel free with the hypotheticals, since that is what digs deep in a discussion.

 

Same with the egg baby plot. I can't go back and rewatch earlier seasons of Snow and Charming and believe their characters could have done that.

 

I agree.  Though I'll bet A&E are actually petting themselves on the back for how they surprised us with this backstory that we never knew.  Were there any specific inconsistencies beyond the fact that there was no way in hell Snow and Charming would have done such a thing?  

Edited July 27, 2015 by Camera One

[Souris]

Adam is currently having a pissing match on Twitter with some people complaining about how the Marian/Zelena stuff didn't make sense. Just one tweet. OK, another one. To read all his tweets, go here.

 

Oh, stuff happened OFFSCREEN.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Souris

[Rumsy4]

Quoted below is Adam's answer to this question: How did Zelena know Robin and Roland's names at the diner (when she first came back as Marian)?

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  31m31 minutes ago

@SwanQueenSwen @BarbieShoesOUaT after glamouring herself, she used magic to learn everything she could about person she was impersonating

 

Apparently Zelena has Smoke Monster-like skills to do mind-reading from a corpse. Gimme a break! lol

 

Oh, stuff happened OFFSCREEN.

 

Snicker...

Edited July 27, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

LOL, I like this one too:

 

 

 

Kristen ‏@kristen217  

@AdamHorowitzLA what about why Robin never told Regina what Zelena looked like in 3b when he had met her before, according to Heart of Gold?

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  21h21 hours ago

@kristen217 who said he didn't?  there were many off screen moments

Kristen ‏@kristen217  21h21 hours ago

@AdamHorowitzLA but if he told her there wouldn't have been all the mystery of no one knowing who the witch was in SB. Sorry I am confused

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  20h20 hours ago

@kristen217 in SB, they didn't have their memories

 

They didn't have any memories of the missing year.  They remember everything before that.   This off-screen moment should have happened in the farmhouse when Regina and Robin met again in Storybrooke.  You'd think the Witch would be the topic of conversation, but instead we got bold and audacious.  

 

-----

 

But wait... more clarification.  We now know what happened in offscreenville.

 

 

 

Amanda ‏@BarbieShoesOUaT  31m31 minutes ago

@AdamHorowitzLA Okay so basically the original question as I understood it was about Robin not knowing who Zelena was. Because the post-curse Storybrooke plot seemed to revolve a lot around the mystery of the WW's identity. And while Robin didn't have his memories of the missing year, it seemed that his encounter with Zelena that we later saw in a flash back was from well before that. And since he was aiding the characters in Storybrooke, it seems he should have been able to identify or give a description of the person they were looking for. I may have overlooked or forgotten something, but I've yet to see anyone in fandom able to connect these dots and usually someone out there can. I understand that 140 chars is limiting but if you can point us to an episode or scene that would make sense of why he seemed unaware I will gladly watch it for myself.

 

Adam Horowitz

‏@AdamHorowitzLA

@BarbieShoesOUaT RH told Regina Offscreeen that he met witch BRIEFLY.  But that didn't materially affect the search

Edited July 27, 2015 by Camera One

[orza]

My impression is that Adam is on Twitter to promote the show and for his own amusement. Those people are idiots and Adam is having a good time with them. Anything he says on Twitter doesn't really matter. He's said so himself that if it isn't in the episode as originally broadcast it isn't canon and people can take it or leave it. I don't have a problem with him telling these morons whatever they need to hear so they will go away.

[Souris]

Apparently Zelena has Smoke Monster-like skills to do mind-reading from a corpse. Gimme a break! lol

 

I know, right? That answer is so ridiculous, I had to wait for my eyes to roll all the way back to the front. It totally illustrates why the Writers thread is named the way it is!

 

IMO, Adam wasn't very amused there for awhile. I thought he seemed quite pissy.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Souris

[Rumsy4]

These questions are quite legit and quite reasonable, considering all the ship nonsense Adam typically gets.

 

And since he was aiding the characters in Storybrooke, it seems he should have been able to identify or give a description of the person they were looking for.

 

Exactly. It was a poorly thought out plot, and the more explanation Adam tries to give, the less sense it makes that they had Zelena-is-Marian planned right from the beginning. Adam should just let it go, instead of trying to justify their writing choices. 

[Curio]

That answer is so ridiculous, I had to wait for my eyes to roll all the way back to the front. It totally illustrates why the Writers thread is named the way it is!

 

"After glamouring herself, she used magic to learn everything she could about person she was impersonating" is basically the epitome of The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why.

 

Instead of taking the time to respond to all of these Twitter questions about continuity threads that happen offscreen, maybe the writers should spend more time actually giving us those offscreen moments on screen.

[Amerilla]

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA 21h21 hours ago

@kristen217 who said he didn't? there were many off screen moments

BWAH-HA-HA!

Ok, I know a few of us on the forum make our living by writing stuff, and I think our lives just got infinitely easier. "Who said it didn't? I wrote it all down, I just didn't show it to you."

Orza, maybe he is just having a good time with a bunch of nattering fans, but I think we've all lost count of the number of times he's responded to clear gaps in storytelling with some version of "oh, it happened off screen" or "who says that didn't happen" or "you're wrong because [insert some line of horse crap here]." Maybe these people are idiots, but they're idiots who watch his show - a show which is not exactly gaining audience at this point - and it's pretty Social Media 101 to try not to talk down to your most engaged audience segment, even if you think they're morons. Over the last couple of seasons, his relationship with the Twitter-based fandom has gotten really dysfunctional.

Plus, just....no. Every time he pulls out that "it happened off screen" excuse, I want to smack him. It's a visual medium. Things that happen off screen don't count unless they're mentioned on screen. For example, an on screen line like "Henry and I had an excellent day of sailing," is valid offscreen-ism. Answering a Twitter question about where Henry has been for the last two episodes with something like "oh he and his friend Stuart have been camping in Storybrooke forest" is not a valid offscreen-ism if it's never referred to in the show. (That's a made-up example, btw. See how easy it is to make shit up!)

Most of these details do not matter, of course, but if you didn't write something, or you didn't think of something, say so. He tries to be "clever," and it falls flat.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Amerilla

[KAOS Agent]

 

RH told Regina Offscreeen that he met witch BRIEFLY.  But that didn't materially affect the search

 

I'm sorry, but Neal fucking died so that they would know who the witch was and Robin having met her and knowing what she looked like didn't materially affect the search? Wow. Adam needs to shut up now.

[KingOfHearts]

 

or example, "Henry and I had an excellent day of sailing," is valid offscreen-ism.

Saying something happened offscreen on Twitter does not make it canon. However, a line like this in the actually show does. I'm sorry Adam, but you can't retcon whatever you want on a social media site. Writing doesn't work that way.

 

 

@BarbieShoesOUaT RH told Regina Offscreeen that he met witch BRIEFLY.  But that didn't materially affect the search

There was no vague recollection of what she looked or sounded like? Rumple never told him her name? This is a retcon, plain and simple. The writers had no idea Robin went to Oz when they wrote 3B, and Adam is acting like it was planned all along. No... just no.

 

Even if he did mention this little encounter, why did it never come up in the Nevenger meetings at the loft? Wouldn't the heroes try to go after what little clues they could find? They could use that dream catcher to summon his memories. (or you know, just look at that giant emerald broach.) The ignorance was so dumb that even Regina snarked about it later.

Edited July 28, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I know the "heroes" only have half a brain cell between them, but why didn't they try to narrow it down by investigating the people who did not come over on the original curse. According to 4A, there are super-detailed records of everyone in town (remember, when Elsa was looking for Anna?). The fact that Zelena even trumpeted the fact she didn't come over on the first curse should have been a red flag even for dimwits.

Backing up a bit, how would being Snow's midwife be useful at all? She had no problem bursting into the hospital and taking the baby. Zelena could have magicked the drug into Charming's drink. Heck, she could have put Snow in her dungeon until the birth and impersonated her the entire time with the glamour spell and also using magic to know everything there ever was to know about Snow. By the time Neal died telling everyone Zelena's real identity, the "secret" was supposedly a moot point, but in hindsight, there was zero reason for the charade in the first place. That's what detracts from the rewatch value, because it's hard not to think, as Zelena is gleefully watching Snow drinking orange juice, what the hell was the purpose of this?

Edited July 28, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Backing up a bit, how would being Snow's midwife be useful at all?

If Storybrooke were without magic, it could have been a manipulation game or held some purpose at least. It would be easier to get to her baby if Snow trusted her than it would be to straight-up babynap. (but Snowing stole an egg in a dragon's plain sight, so go figure.) But since Zelena was ridiculously overpowered via magic, most of 3B was pointless. She could have cursed Hook to neutralize Emma, stolen the ingredients, killed everyone that could have stopped her and proceeded to go through time.

Edited July 28, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

There is no amount of Twitter handwaving or offscreen writerwanking that can make me believe the Zarian mess. Either it's a total retcon that they didn't plan, or the execution was so badly bungled that they need to go find a career better suited for their abilities.

 

There was already a lot of boneheadedness involved in Zelena's first plot -- like her sabotaging herself with all the mwa-ha-haing when she could have had what she wanted if the others didn't even know there was a threat, plus her drawing attention to herself in Storybrooke when she got a reboot from the memory spell, and them being too dumb to figure out who the threat might be among the newcomers (made worse by the retcon in which Robin had met Zelena and should have known who she was, so Neal shouldn't have had to die so she could be identified).

 

But then we have the issue that Zelena's Plan A was to go back in time and make sure Regina was never born so that Rumple would have to use her to cast the curse, and therefore she'd be #1 and the first choice. That was foiled, but then she finds herself back in time in a different time than she originally planned. So what would her Plan B be to achieve her goal? Take advantage of the time she was in and find a way to get rid of or ruin Regina so Rumple would have to use her to cast the curse, or impersonate some random woman so she could return to the future and possibly annoy Regina? So that's a big problem right there.

 

Then there's the issue that Zelena shouldn't have had any way of knowing who Marian was and shouldn't have known enough about her to impersonate her (because I don't buy the handwaving -- sorry, something like that would need to be set up a lot better to establish that it was possible to learn everything about a person when glamouring oneself to look like that person. Rumple was barely able to pull off Hook and nearly tripped himself up, and he's known Hook for centuries).

 

But then we come back to who Zelena is and what she wants. This is a character whose defining characteristic is that she's so jealous that she literally turns green. She wants to be the #1 choice, and she's so jealous that getting what she wants isn't enough. No one else can have it or she's not happy. And her way of getting revenge on Regina is to put herself in a position where she's a default choice out of guilt, where she knows he really wants Regina and Regina gets to look like a martyr and hero for doing the right thing? That's pure plot without taking character into consideration because the Zelena they established would never in a million years come up with that scheme. One of the big failure points for me is in the premiere when, as I recall, "Marian" and Regina are alone and "Marian" tells Regina she's not a monster after all. There was no reason for Zelena to be on her best behavior there. She had no witnesses. She could have been full-on bitchy, and if Regina had said anything about it, then Regina would have looked bad. Why would Zelena want to stoke Regina's ego? If Zelena wanted to ruin Regina's life, wouldn't she have gone all-out in describing Regina's crimes against her and deliberately set up a tug of war over Robin instead of all but shoving Robin at Regina? Zelena's not one for subtle psychological cruelty, building up Regina's hopes only to tear them down. She's not someone who'd let Regina think she was removing herself from the equation and letting Robin choose his real love, only to contrive a reason Robin had to stay with her. She's someone who'd throw a hissy fit and make Robin choose, in a way in which he'd have no choice but to choose her and utterly turn his back on Regina. She'd have played the wronged saint and turned the whole town against Regina.

[Faemonic]

I definitely don't think that there was any way to act that scene as Zelena-disguised-as-Marian. Giving the actors a heads up does nothing for the writing continuity issue.

[Camera One]

In the words of Adam:

 

 

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA

we wrote very carefully to make sure none of it contradicted

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA

but nothing on screen contradicts. No one has pointed to one moment

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA

the important part is that all actions remain consistent

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA

the point was NOT to tip off. But to make it consistent so when revealed you could look back.

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA

it something writers call "plausible offscreen info" -- there's room on TV to show EVERYTHING

They should make one of those calendars. You know, where each day, there's a different quote you could rip out.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

the important part is that all actions remain consistent

Consistent with what? Previously established characterization?

 

He's just lucky I'm on deadline and Twitter is limited to 140 characters or he'd be getting an EPIC calling out. By the time I have time to mess with it, it may have blown over.

[Curio]

She's someone who'd throw a hissy fit and make Robin choose, in a way in which he'd have no choice but to choose her and utterly turn his back on Regina. She'd have played the wronged saint and turned the whole town against Regina.

The writers set it up perfectly for this kind of result that it's mind-boggling they didn't go down this route. "Marian" could keep bringing up the fact that Regina tortured her in the Enchanted Forest to Robin, which would turn him against Regina (for a pretty legitimate reason). And if Regina scoffed and said she didn't remember torturing her, then "Marian" could say Emma, Hook, Geppetto, and Pinocchio all saw Regina parading her around the village, and later, Hook, David, and Ruby witnessed how Emma and Marian had been put in the jail cells. There's no way Regina could wiggle her way out of those stories. Later in 4A, "Marian" could start to slowly turn everyone in town against Regina—not just Robin. "Marian" just happens to stumble across some documents that prove Graham's death was magical, not a heart attack? Emma turns against Regina. "Marian" lets it slip to Henry that Regina wiped his memory in Season 2 and was ready to kill off his entire family? Henry turns on Regina. "Marian" reminds Snow about all the countless times Regina has attempted to kill her in life? Etc. While we watched it in real time, we'd just assume it was Marian getting back at Regina for torturing her and dating her husband, but when we looked back, it would be that lightbulb moment where it totally makes sense for it to be Zelena.

 

He's just lucky I'm on deadline and Twitter is limited to 140 characters or he'd be getting an EPIC calling out. By the time I have time to mess with it, it may have blown over.

Surely, you have 10 minutes to spare... ;)

Edited July 28, 2015 by Curio

[Camera One]

That would be awesome, Curio. That would allow them to address those giant continuity elephants in the room, so they can actually move on from there.

[KingOfHearts]

The writers set it up perfectly for this kind of result that it's mind-boggling they didn't go down this route.

Curio, that would be brilliant on any other show. On Once, it would be the biggest Woegina epidemic fathomable.

 

 

They should make one of those calendars. You know, where each day, there's a different quote you could rip out.

Can quotes from Twitter cause head-banging? Because they sure have for me.

 

Keeping in mind that Zelena is written was Regina 2.0, I believe the writers wanted her to be over-the-top as well as cunning and sly. They wanted to give her the ability to cackle while also being able to stealthily trick people. Mayor Mills was written that way much better. She could be dramatically muahahaing, but she could also be subtly manipulative. But she only hid her fangs because she was in complete control of the situation. Same with Mr. Gold.

 

It doesn't work for Zelena, because the only time we've ever seen her act out of character was when she was masquerading as other people. (Ariel and Marian.) Whenever she's in her own body, her actions are always full of stupid. What's she done in disguises has been totally inconsistent with whenever she's attempted to do anything smart without them. (Midwife Zelena, for example.)

Edited July 28, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

On Once, it would be the biggest Woegina epidemic fathomable.

 

Which is exactly why it's so mind-boggling they didn't do it. Imagine all the Regina tears there would have been! Everyone is so mean to Regina! How dare they be upset with Regina for the horrible things she did! She's a different person now! Marian is such a bitch! Regina deserves a happy ending because look how sad she looks!

 

That sounds like Adam & Eddy catnip.

[Shanna Marie]

This situation did demonstrate that there's a hierarchy of Regina needs, and apparently kissing her ass and declaring her a hero is more important than making her out to be Woegina the victim. That's why we had Marian declaring that Regina isn't a monster, thanking her for saving her life, and saying she wasn't going to get in the way of Robin and Regina's true love, since he had good reason to move on while he thought she was dead, rather than Marian standing up against Regina for terrorizing her and not being able to get past Regina's crimes. They still could have turned that into a Woegina fest, especially when it was revealed that it was really Zelena who was ruining her life out of spite, and then everyone else in town would have had to feel guilty for siding with Zarian against Regina. But even though that would have been more in character for Zelena and not so out of character for Marian (who was in prison for standing up against Regina in the first place) that it would have given everything away, they went with the option that had Regina's former victim declaring how wonderful Regina was -- and then tried to tell us that this was actually Regina's jealousy-crazed sister.

[Curio]

and not so out of character for Marian (who was in prison for standing up against Regina in the first place)

 

I forgot about that part. Basically, "Zarian" throughout 4A was out of character for both real Marian and Zelena. Real Marian would have actually stood up to Regina and would have held her husband accountable for dating his dead wife's torturer, and Zelena would have gloated more in front of Regina.