Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[BkWurm1]

Didn't like that Hawkgirl literally breaks the front off Ray's ATOM suit and then a second or two later comes walking out to beat up the bad guys. She broke his suit. Continuity fails again in the DC universe.

I don't think she broke his suit, just popped a piece off that I assumed popped back in place when the bad guys showed up.  I, mean, how else does he even get into it?

 

Since, to my recollection anyway, neither one of the EPs has debunked this theory I will continue to believe Rip is related to someone on Arrow, and the only ones who makes sense are Oliver and Felicity.

There was one Tumblr answer from MG that kind of did debunk it, just not all the way.  People were asking if the kid's name (Jonas) was a an accident or on purpose and he confirmed it was on purpose but I swear he also confirmed it came from that Jonas Quantum comic he was writing rather than Arrow.  But still....

 

 

Ugh at Ray and Kendra making out I'd rather Jax had gotten her.

I can't get sad about Clexa on the 100 cause I remember what she did to Clarke and her crew

 

I kind of hated Clexa for that very reason .  Just gave me a good reason to catch up on my DVR backlog of The 100.  I was afraid Clexa was long term. 

 

As for Ray and Kendra, until last week it would never have crossed my mind to consider them but this week it worked for me.  He was being sweet and funny and he's such a dork and earlier they'd been geeky and cute discussing Star Trek (and Rip made Ray acting Captain while he was away but put Kendra in charge of Ray, lol)  They kind of remind me of a couple optimistic teens.  Cute but Barry Allen level of no heat.  Way below Patty and Barry levels.  So it feels harmless to me.   

[statsgirl]

I refuse to believe that Snart killed the guy he had just been telling Sara saved his life in juvie.  I still don't understand why they couldn't return Mick to 2016 -- Laurel can take care of herself, as she's always telling us.

 

I think they hit a good note with Ray in this episode.  He was cute and goofy and geeky and much better than he was on Arrow. If he had to hook up with someone, I'm glad it's Kendra and not Sara.

 

Best line -- Stein wearing the beret and saying "never underestimate a nuclear physicist".  Pretty good for a 67 year old.

[BkWurm1]

I refuse to believe that Snart killed the guy he had just been telling Sara saved his life in juvie.  I still don't understand why they couldn't return Mick to 2016 -- Laurel can take care of herself, as she's always telling us.

 

I don't think he actually is dead either but while Laurel could defend herself (for as long as she'd need to) there is also Stein's wife, Jax's mother, Snart's sister who would think he is a friend, not to mention the fact that Oliver got outed as the GA so any of his loved ones would be a target as well. 

[Starfish35]

I don't mind Ray and Kendra. They're kind of cute, although sudden. Honestly, I'm more comfortable with their dynamic than Carter and Kendra. It always irritated me the way Carter treated Kendra.

But Len executing Mick? I'm having a hard time with that one. I want to believe he's not really dead, but.....

And stupid stupid Rip. I'm losing my patience with him. Once they kill Savage, can we send him back to his family and keep the ship?

[looptab]

I thought Mick was embracing the team aspect and "save the world" of it as well? At least he was, prior to Star City 2046.

By the way, I really enjoyed the final action scene. That's how you do a group action scene, Arrow. 

 

And stupid stupid Rip. I'm losing my patience with him. Once they kill Savage, can we send him back to his family and keep the ship?

You don't like him?

[Starfish35]

I don't hate him, but I'm getting frustrated with him. I don't think Mick would have turned on everyone if Rip hadn't gotten in his face and told him how stupid he was, or that he never really wanted him on the team in the first place. Not that I'm excusing Mick, but still. Great job there Captain, deliberately antagonize the team psychopath.

I loved Arthur Darvill as Rory Williams, but I have to admit, I'm not loving Rip Hunter.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Starfish35

[looptab]

I can see how that can be frustrating. But I am appreciating the fact that he screws up as much as the others, that he believes he has everything under control and then, at times, cracks under the pressure.

On the other hand, as much as I liked the conflict with Mick and Snart, I am perplexed by this recent turn of events, because Mick seemed to be fully on board, especially in the Russia episodes.

[Starfish35]

I don't think it's just that. I mean, yes, I was frustrated at him. But I've been dubious since the casting was announced about Arthur Darvill in this role, and I have to admit, I'm just not buying him as the dashing action hero. It's not that he's not a good actor, because he is, but it still feels like he's playing dress-up in someone else's clothes. At least to me. Maybe I still just have Rory Williams too much in my head. *shrug*

ETA: Or I could just be frustrated with everything tonight. Don't mind me. It's been a rough couple of weeks. I might completely change my mind on everything once I get some sleep. :(

Edited March 4, 2016 by Starfish35

[looptab]

Oh, I see. This is the first role I see him in, so I didn't have any particular expectations. Though I agree on the dress-up in someone else's clothes thing, sometimes I have that feeling too. Like with some of his stances, they look really weird. I don't know whether that's the actor himself, or him trying (and failing) to project some kind of attitude.

[bijoux]

 

Cute.

[BkWurm1]

That's adorable!

[BkWurm1]

I don't think it's just that. I mean, yes, I was frustrated at him. But I've been dubious since the casting was announced about Arthur Darvill in this role, and I have to admit, I'm just not buying him as the dashing action hero. It's not that he's not a good actor, because he is, but it still feels like he's playing dress-up in someone else's clothes. At least to me. Maybe I still just have Rory Williams too much in my head. *shrug*

ETA: Or I could just be frustrated with everything tonight. Don't mind me. It's been a rough couple of weeks. I might completely change my mind on everything once I get some sleep. :(

I am having the opposite experience. I always felt Rory on Dr Who was a kind of weak sad sack and really only loved him at times after the whole Roman soilder thing (I was rooting for Amy to never remember him early on) and I was worried I'd never not see him that way and have been shocked how I never see Rory at all and I love Rip, warts and all.

He loses his temper and a lot of his swagger is bravado and I love the layers. Yes, he said things he never should have but that's who he is. He did apologize but its hard to come back from calling a guy no smarter than meat. The part about him being a package deal and not specifically wanted didn't bother me cause I thought that was sort of obvious.

I don't think we've seen the last of Mick but Snart so definitively choosing a different side was huge and surprising. I think 2046 and the power struggle between them is what forced both of them into seeing the fissures between them.

Cold had been teetering toward playing nice for a while on Flash even as Heat had remained unchanged. 2046 put their differences in stark relief. Mick realized he was losing the guy he knew to something bigger that he couldn't complete with. He was fine with what they were doing and even seemed to be more open to new people early on, but I think he freaked out and rejected all he had been ok with when he realized how much Leonard was changing. And 2046 is where they both realized it.

Snart convinced himself that Mick wasn't thinking it through and would just get over being dragged back to the mission, while Mick realized that Snart's priorities had somehow changed and I think his betrayal was nothing more than him trying to make things the way they were before.

[FurryFury]

I kind of hated Clexa for that very reason .

 

Yeah, me too. I was really annoyed that Clarke has forgiven her enough to sleep with her (ugh). But I did like Lexa herself, so I'm sad for her fans. But really, Rotherberg seems to be really anti-ship (and kind of a jerk to fans, too), what with repeatedly shutting down Bellarke and then killing Lexa.

 

I am having the opposite experience. I always felt Rory on Dr Who was a kind of weak sad sack and really only loved him at times after the whole Roman soilder thing (I was rooting for Amy to never remember him early on) and I was worried I'd never not see him that way and have been shocked how I never see Rory at all and I love Rip, warts and all.

 

I've only seen season 5 (couldn't force myself to watch after that, not a fan of Moffat's style of writing), but yeah, I didn't care for Rory at all. I'm OK with Rip, although the family motivation doesn't bring up a lot of emotions in me.

 

Cold had been teetering toward playing nice for a while on Flash even as Heat had remained unchanged. 2046 put their differences in stark relief. Mick realized he was losing the guy he knew to something bigger that he couldn't complete with. He was fine with what they were doing and even seemed to be more open to new people early on, but I think he freaked out and rejected all he had been ok with when he realized how much Leonard was changing. And 2046 is where they both realized it.

 

I expected for their confrontation to happen later, personally, but it's cool that the show didn't prolong it. I guess Cold is the character with the most development so far.

[jaytee1812]

Ugh at Ray and Kendra making out I'd rather Jax had gotten her.

Was there any indication that Jax was into Kendra?

[nksarmi]

I thought the same thing - like I might not mind so many masks on Arrow if it was done like this....

By the way, I really enjoyed the final action scene. That's how you do a group action scene, Arrow. 

 

[nksarmi]

I can see how that can be frustrating. But I am appreciating the fact that he screws up as much as the others, that he believes he has everything under control and then, at times, cracks under the pressure.

On the other hand, as much as I liked the conflict with Mick and Snart, I am perplexed by this recent turn of events, because Mick seemed to be fully on board, especially in the Russia episodes.

 

There was a point where I really thought he was playing the other side. But then again, they have been toying with the difference between him and Cold for awhile and one of those differences is that on some level, Snart is starting to become an anti-hero where Mick definitely was not. 

 

I do wonder what the results of this plot point will be.  Are they going with the "sometimes heroes are going to have to kill people" route vs their "rubber bullet" Arrow counterparts (because I'm pretty sure a whole bunch of space pirates just died in this episode) or are they going to show that Snart is being redeemed because he couldn't kill Mick?  As entertaining as Mick could be at times, I have to admit that my biggest interest in this is what is means for the Cold character.

[tv echo]

Apparently AoS is taking a leaf out of Arrow's playbook (warning: linked article contains spoilers)...
http://tvline.com/2016/03/02/once-upon-a-time-spoilers-season-6-mufasa-scar/

[bijoux]

Was there any indication that Jax was into Kendra?

 

He was into her in the last episode. Stein picked up on it and tried to get Ray out of the running before Ray was aware of anything.

[tv echo]

From an interview with JDJ...

 

Legends of Tomorrow's Joseph David-Jones: Writers Plan To Change The Team's Lineup
Russ Burlingame- 03/02/2016
http://comicbook.com/2016/03/02/legends-of-tomorrows-joseph-david-jones-writers-plan-to-change-t/

One such character was Hawke -- the son of John Diggle in a bleak future where Ray Palmer and Sara Lance never defeated Vandal Savage and returned to 2016 to save Star City.

"I know that a couple of the writers are trying to push to get me back in there, because they really do like what happened with the episode," David-Jones said. "I know that they're trying to put me back in there but I don't know what they're going to come up with or what even is going to happen with Connor Hawke, but I know they've been talking about potential different outcomes of it because they are plan on cycling out some of the cast from the ship. So I don't know what's going to happen, or if that timeline is still set until they actually do go back to the past."

The biggest takeaway there, of course, is that guest stars on the show are being led to understand that some of the Legends could be "cycled off" the Waverider. That's something many fans have guessed, with speculation being that characters like Vixen or John Constantine could join future seasons if such a thing were to happen.

Edited March 4, 2016 by tv echo

[bijoux]

That guy was really solid and I love the idea of getting an insight into Dig's potential son. Still not sure I'd watch the show, but I'd probably check out Youtube clips here and there. However, there is one pressing matter. Sending him off on the ship mean gramps Oliver would be alone once again. I thought that bit about him not being alone at the end of last episode was cute.

[looptab]

Guys, I need help from time travel versed people. I swear I struggled following the last part of LOT's episode because in the back of my mind I kept asking myself: if Mick really does go back to the moment before Rip recruits him, where does that Mick go?Maybe this is a silly question, but I was never able to keep up with this stuff :) Any insight will be much appreciated :)

[Coop33]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around how John Diggle Jr. could join the cast without his life changing drastically or possibly disappearing as they fix things through time. The JDJ we met was in a possible future timeline, right? And I thought it was implied that if they defeated Savage and Sara and Ray were able to come back to Star City to help, the timeline we saw would never come to pass. So then JDJ could potentially never exist, or could totally lose his archery/fighting skills if he never learns them.

 

Or, does he stay the same but just become part of an alternate timeline? And if that's the case, how does he get back to his home? I just dk. I've given myself a headache.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Coop33

[looptab]

Yeah, would Diggle's son become the Green Arrow if they were succesful? Maybe they could go and retrieve him before defeating Savage - if they do want him to be a part of the team.

[nksarmi]

The rules of LoT seem to be they can't revisit a certain point in history more than once.  Now those rules might get quickly abandoned (and probably will!), but it was mentioned.  Since that particularly 2046 occurred because Slade Jr. wanted revenge on behalf of his father, that may not be as "changeable" as Rip said.  On the one hand, Sara and Ray were definitely not part of the fight because Oliver said so, but on the other hand - we don't know anything about Rip's history (say timeline a) between 2016 and 2166.  It could be that Star City did in fact suffer that kind of blow but was rebuilt by the time 2166 rolls around.  That could have been specifically why Rip recruited Ray and Sara - because they were going to get killed in that attack anyway.

 

So depending on if the show gets picked up for season two and who they want to keep/lose - it seems like they could pop into 2040 or 2050 and recruit a slightly older/younger version of John Diggle Jr. who could range from right after he became Green Arrow to take Oliver's place to a man who with Oliver's help had swung the tide to start the process of cleaning up Star City to a man with a totally different past (maybe he did become Green Arrow but with a different sequence of events leading up to it).  They have loads of options really.

Edited March 4, 2016 by nksarmi

[dtissagirl]

Guys, I need help from time travel versed people. I swear I struggled following the last part of LOT's episode because in the back of my mind I kept asking myself: if Mick really does go back to the moment before Rip recruits him, where does that Mick go?Maybe this is a silly question, but I was never able to keep up with this stuff :) Any insight will be much appreciated :)

 

It's a terrible idea to drop Mick back into 2016 at the moment he was recruited. Rip gave everyone some time to think about the mission, so if they did that, for about the day or so between recruitment and the first trip, there would be two Micks in 2016. One of them hell bent on revenge, haha.

 

The safest idea would be to drop him anytime AFTER the Waverider left, to ensure they don't create a paradox.

[looptab]

It's a terrible idea to drop Mick back into 2016 at the moment he was recruited. Rip gave everyone some time to think about the mission, so if they did that, for about the day or so between recruitment and the first trip, there would be two Micks in 2016. One of them hell bent on revenge, haha.

 

The safest idea would be to drop him anytime AFTER the Waverider left, to ensure they don't create a paradox.

Yeah, but that was Mick's plan :) Had he succeeded and had the pirates dropped him there, one Mick would still go aboard, wouldn't he?

Edited March 4, 2016 by looptab

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, but that was Mick's plan :) Had he succeeded and had the pirates dropped him there, one Mick would still go aboard, wouldn't he?

I didn't pay attention to any of that, haha. But he'd had to make sure he was the Mick getting into the Waverider. He'd have to get rid of the other Mick somehow. Which is a TERRIBLE IDEA when dealing with time-travel.

Edited March 4, 2016 by dtissagirl

[looptab]

I didn't pay attention to any of that, haha. But he'd had to make sure he was the Mick getting into the Waverider. He'd have to get rid of the other Mick somehow. Which is a TERRIBLE IDEA when dealing with time-travel.

And you are lucky you didn't, haha. I wish I hadn't too, so now I wouldn't be racking my brain about it. :)

[tarotx]

Mick would see himself do the things he did before joining the waverider-just like Marty did with the time machine in Back to the future. On LOT time is like cement and takes a little time to harden. Though the way things have been going on LOT is ,although something small might change, the big things happen.The Hawks past life son still died,  Stein still met his future wife and Snart's dad still went to Prison. And Rip's foray into the past so for has given the Vandal cult a "devil" and Savage himself a goal of killing Rip's family. 

[statsgirl]

It seems like what they're doing is going further and further back into the past so that that time's Savage doesn't know they are after him.  He knows Rip is but not the rest of the team.  The captain gave them a date for 1954, I think.  In a couple of episodes, I expect to see them borrowing the costumes from Agent Carter.

 

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around how John Diggle Jr. could join the cast without his life changing drastically or possibly disappearing as they fix things through time. The JDJ we met was in a possible future timeline, right? And I thought it was implied that if they defeated Savage and Sara and Ray were able to come back to Star City to help, the timeline we saw would never come to pass. So then JDJ could potentially never exist, or could totally lose his archery/fighting skills if he never learns them.

My problem is that we never got to know if Vandal Savage was any part of creating that hellhole of 2046.  If he was and they kill him in the past and Sara and Ray returned to fight Deathstroke2, then John Diggle Jr. should still have been born and learned to shoot and fight at his father's and Uncle Oliver's knees, but wouldn't take on the name of Connor Hawke. 

 

If they don't defeat Savage and later Wilson, then Connor Hawke will want to stay in Starling City to fight as the Green Arrow since even though D2 is gone, it's still a hellhole.

 

So basically, if they want to add the actor to the show as JDJ/Hawke, I think they need to pick him up after they've killed Deathstroke2.

Edited March 4, 2016 by statsgirl

[bijoux]

Why after killing Slade?

[statsgirl]

I think if Wilson2 were still alive, Connor wouldn't leave Star City because it needs a Green Arrow.  If Slade is dead and doesn't take over the city, then he'd be more likely to jump at the chance for an adventure, especially if his parents are both still alive.  If Ray and Sara can't stop Deathstroke from taking over the city when he arrives but do manage to do it in 2046 (I think that's what the episode had) and after his death things have died down, Connor may consider going with them.

 

But the thinking through the whole thing makes my head hurt.

Edited March 4, 2016 by statsgirl

[bijoux]

Ah, you're calling Slade's son Slade. I thought you were talking about the original. Gotcha. I don't remember what his name actually was, but I know it wasn't Slade.

[statsgirl]

Ohmigosh, you're right!  Correcting now. Thanks.  Was it Gareth Wilson?  Gareth sounds like he should be a Knight of the Round Table.

(What kind of a first name is Slade, anyway?)

Edited March 4, 2016 by statsgirl

[Delphi]

Grant Wilson.

[Genki]

Grant Wilson.

 

I work with a Grant Wilson and a few of my colleagues (not Grant) watch FLARROW we had a lot of fun at work after this episode.

[kismet]

Oh god, EWWWWWWWWWW!

 

That was eww to the power of eww and then something logarithmic? 

Catching up on the thread late, but I totally know what moment you're talking about :)

 

Seriously, what were they thinking in the LoT writers room?

[kismet]

Well for me that was the worst episode of LoT, but I'll comment in the LoT forum.

 

In terms of the Flarrowverse, I will say that Gregory Smith as a director so far is 0 for 3, with 2 more on the way. It's not looking good for him.

 

For sure, he is not good at filming romantic moments. I think he is able to capture some great character moments like O/D in chains, cheeky one liners and great individual moments. So I think he can inspire actors to give good performances. I think he's just not great at capturing it all on film. I find most of his episodes to be very discombobulated and poorly paced. It's almost seems like he needs to take more classes on how to integrate and edit the story together into a cohesive vision. I used to think it was just the scripts, but I'm beginning to think it might be his direction as well. There is no cohesive vision and when you have scripts that jump all over the place, you really need someone to put it all together and make them feel interconnected. He seems to be lacking that skill.

[statsgirl]

There was one cut that I liked -- Sara was fighting and swung her opponent, and it cut to Rip being swung exactly the same way by the captain that he was fighting. 

Speaking of the captain, nice to see Callum Keith Rennie finally show up on Arrowverse. I was wondering where he was.

 

Watching the episodes Gregory Smith has directed, it makes me wonder if it's also necessary for the director to connect emotionally to the scenes, not just tell the actors where and how to move.  It seems to me that he does that only in certain areas whereas someone like Glen Winter or Lexi Alexander can do it across a number of settings and actor combinations.  (Seriously, that Kendra/Ray kiss just seemed to come out of nowhere.)

[kismet]

From some of the shots and moments, I do think Gregory Smith has potential. I just think he needs to spend more time with seasoned directors to understand how to tell a coherent story. I feel like some of his scenes are good because he approaches them as an actor, but when he needs to piece all the scenes together he doesn't have that ability. When I watch an episode, I want to see a coherent story not just a a few good scenes. And for me the director is the one that can influence that because s/he is there for every scene, so s/he can weave the moments together.

[Sakura12]

I thought he did a good job with the fight scene transitions. I liked the one with the Sara and Mick fight and Rip and Leabon fight. 

[Delphi]

Yeah, I was much more impressed with Gregory's work on LoT than Arrow.

[bijoux]

Catching up on the thread late, but I totally know what moment you're talking about :)

 

Seriously, what were they thinking in the LoT writers room?

I'll bite. What was the moment?

[dtissagirl]

I'll bite. What was the moment?

Palmer and Kendra made out.

It was like watching two blocks of cement making out.

[FurryFury]

Eh, Ray's not so bad. He's OK in small doses, and so far, he's always in small doses. Kendra, though... Yeah. Can't disagree on her.

[Delphi]

Eh, Ray's not so bad. He's OK in small doses, and so far, he's always in small doses. Kendra, though... Yeah. Can't disagree on her.

Was that an accidental Atom joke?

[kismet]

All I can say is that I have now seen BR hit on women and make-out with them in at least 4 different shows & 1 movie and it's always awkward. I don't know what it is about BR on the screen, because he is a handsome man with an adorkable personality at times - but the minute he starts to act like a romantic hero or love interest it just makes my skin crawl a little bit. I really wish the show had avoided him going after Kendra because I was just starting to like him, but now its been 2 episodes in which I've had to swallow too much of that awkward juice. He's just not a romantic lead and I wish people would stop casting/writing him as one.

[FurryFury]

Was that an accidental Atom joke?

Haha, I haven't noticed that, thanks! That said, they really don't seem to care about the miniaturization aspect. He rarely even does it. Which sucks, because why not?

[nksarmi]

I like BR and I think he's attractive, but chemistry has to be right as well.  From interviews prior to LoT, I think he and Caity have a pretty friendly relationship that might translate well to screen but I kind of like that their characters aren't being paired on the show romantically (although I'd LOVE to see them in action together more or just interacting - they do know a lot of the same people).

 

Anyway - I think BR and EBR had chemistry at moments but I think it was largely overshadowed by the fact that he was written just to put up a roadblock for olicity and the writers kind of made him scuzzy at times.  LoT writers are doing a much better job with him.

 

And on that note - I see chemistry between him and Kendra.  Maybe I'm just easy to win over with dorky Star Trek flirting or maybe it's because in comparison to Kendra/Cisco or Kendra/Carter - she'd have chemistry with a rock.  But I still like them together. 

 

***So I just thought of something I really want for the LoT DVD when it comes - I want all of these characters sitting around comparing notes on Flash and Arrow characters.  Like Ray and Sara talking about Oliver and Felicity.  Cold and Ray and Kendra gossiping about Barry and Cisco.  Etc....  I know any of LoT's audience that aren't fans of Arrow and Flash would not appreciate that - but I SO want it lol.

[looptab]

Yeah, Cisco/Kendra made me cringe ten thousand times more.