Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Sakura12]

White Canary (the former Black Canary, Caity Lotz),

 

Haha, I love how everyone keeps calling her Black Canary no matter how much Because Comics fans cry "she's just the Canary".

[Morrigan2575]

I always called BS on that, they called Sara Black Canary at SDCC 2013, they referred to her as Black Canary in almost every interview after SDCC. It wasn't until very late in S2 (most likely when they finally decided to stick with Laurel/ KC) that they changed their tune. That's when MG came up with the Sara is our Canary with no qualifier bull shit.

Hell even Geoff Johns referred to Katie and Caity as the Black Canaries at SDCC 2014.

[Guest]

*whispers* They were still calling CL the Black Canary in most media outlets during SDCC 2015… But that's none of my business.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Guest

[Primal Slayer]

Haha, I love how everyone keeps calling her Black Canary no matter how much Because Comics fans cry "she's just the Canary".

What the media calls her and what the producers choose to call her are two different things. Officially the character is The Canary. Yet we are able to have both but they can't stop being pitted against one another which is sad.

[Trini]

So sad.

[Morrigan2575]

*whispers* They were still calling CL the Black Canary in most media outlets during SDCC 2015… But that's none of my business.

Yes they did but that was after they had already signed CL to LoT and knew they were bringing Sara back.

IMO that whole Canary vs Black Canary BS was a PR job. Some publicist told them that the best way to market Laurel as Black Canary was to remove Sara as comparison.

It never would have worked especially with the idiotic way they framed Laurel becoming BC (which was SWFing her sister’s life).

Edited November 24, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Princess Vanellope]

Well, if DC Comics thinks she's the Black Canary, and the Lego company refers to her as the Black Canary, and Funko makes their Black Canary figurine in her likeness, and Geoff Frigging Johns calls her Black Canary.....then that's what she was. And intentional or not, by doing so they have really opened Laurel up to be compared to Sara's version until the show's end and probably beyond.

[Sakura12]

The show started the pitting by giving Sara everything that makes the Black Canary the Black Canary then killing her off just so Because Comics can have a purpose on the show. Laurel is useless and unnecessary character there is no way around that. If she just disappeared it would not change the show one bit, she's the expendable one. 

[Chaser]

Calling Sara "The Canary" was a really bad idea. They should have kept Sara the Black Canary. It makes no sense for Laurel to 'honor' her sister by taking her name and then modifying it. 

[Guest]

What the media calls her and what the producers choose to call her are two different things. Officially the character is The Canary. Yet we are able to have both but they can't stop being pitted against one another which is sad.

 

To be fair though, there was an interview at SDCC this year when DR called Laurel the 'Canary' and KC interrupted him and said 'Black Canary.' So, you know, it's not like people are just doing it themselves. Even KC wants the distinction noted. 

[wonderwall]

I think the show forced viewers to compare when they made Laurel take over Sara's legacy as if it were hers. She took her reputation on the streets, her mask, her costume, her name... It's difficult not to compare when Laurel wanted to become Sara (which was a storyline that was never really put to bed. Is she still trying to be like Sara? What's her own mission now? Basically the whole LL becoming BC was so rushed I still don't understand her motivation). 

 

Not only that but it's obvious Sara was killed off for Laurel. So it's natural for people to compare Laurel and Sara especially if the more skilled and more interesting and more integrated character was killed off for a character that's only there because of her name.

 

Now that both Laurel and Sara are there, it's fair to have residual bitterness that the better character is going to greener pastures and we're left with the sloppy seconds. And that's the writers fault for not giving Laurel's arc the time and the effort, also it's the casting director's fault for not casting a more believable BC.

 

In the real world, people are always going to be compared to someone else. It's just what happens. I don't see why it's suddenly taboo to compare two characters. In the end, Sara is better. Just like how I compre Oliver to Barry and think Oliver is better. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by wonderwall

[Starfish35]

I'm going to do my best to say this without breaking forum rules regarding discussing other fans.

My gripe with the Canary vs Black Canary thing is that, in my experience, it is used as a way to put Sara down and dismiss her. Since Laurel is apparently supposed to be the One True Black Canary, Sara being just The Canary means that she is lesser. Not worthy. Not good enough or righteous enough. And as a Sara fan that irritates the crap out of me. I'm not saying the show has deliberately said that, but they've invited that interpretation by insisting on this whole Sara is the Canary and Laurel is the Black Canary crap. And I'm tired of Sara getting kicked down to elevate Laurel. I'm looking forward to her getting her own identity.

[nksarmi]

This show looks so damn good - I am so freaking excited.  I'm trying to keep my expectations low just in case, but damn, every single trailer I watch makes it look better and better!  And I LOVE that one or more person tries "fixing" their "fate" - for them to assemble this group and have them not to try "better" their past would make NO sense.  I'm sure they will learn their lesson, but I'm glad that drama will be involved.

[Primal Slayer]

Calling Sara "The Canary" was a really bad idea. They should have kept Sara the Black Canary. It makes no sense for Laurel to 'honor' her sister by taking her name and then modifying it. 

It's more about Laurel honoring her sister while making the title her own by making a modification to the name. She isn't Sara, she isn't The Canary and she isn't trying to be anymore.

[apinknightmare]

She didn't even modify the name. Quentin called her The Black Canary to make fun of her, lmao. 

[Primal Slayer]

I think the show forced viewers to compare when they made Laurel take over Sara's legacy as if it were hers. She took her reputation on the streets, her mask, her costume, her name... It's difficult not to compare when Laurel wanted to become Sara (which was a storyline that was never really put to bed. Is she still trying to be like Sara? What's her own mission now? Basically the whole LL becoming BC was so rushed I still don't understand her motivation). 

 

The only thing she took of Sara's was her jacket and they had an entire episode where Laurel decided to stop trying to be her sister in the streets. She wants to save her city and has seen how bad things are in the streets now.

She didn't even modify the name. Quentin called her The Black Canary to make fun of her, lmao. 

They totally side stepped it so we don't know if she modified it before Q came at her. She could've already been going by that name, thus him mocking her.

[Chaser]

I read on Twitter that the cast of LOT would be changing season to season. Had anyone else heard this?

 

 

It's more about Laurel honoring her sister while making the title her own by making a modification to the name. She isn't Sara, she isn't The Canary and she isn't trying to be anymore.

Taking the name "Black Canary" didn't honor her sister at all. Lance spit it at Laurel like an insult. I'm more inclined to believe Laurel stared calling herself Black Canary to spite her father.  

[Primal Slayer]

Yeah they said that the cast would be ever evolving. Some would die, some would be left overs but the team would change every year as this is their way to introduce new heroes.

 

And we don't know who thought of the name first, since like everything, they skipped over the official naming process just as they skipped over Oliver learning of Laurel suiting up. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Starfish35]

I read on Twitter that the cast of LOT would be changing season to season. Had anyone else heard this?

This is a persistent rumor, but until I see an actual source, I'm going to believe this is more from the people that still insist that LoT is/should be some sort of anthology series.

I absolutely believe we could have more cast turnover than the other two shows, but I don't believe there's going to be a whole cast change from season to season.

[apinknightmare]

They totally side stepped it so we don't know if she modified it before Q came at her. She could've already been going by that name, thus him mocking her.

 

Yeah, she could've. Seems like the kind of thing they would've wanted to actually show, so who knows. The show doesn't care, I don't care.

Edited November 24, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

It's too close.  That's the problem.

 

The only thing she took of Sara's was her jacket and they had an entire episode where Laurel decided to stop trying to be her sister in the streets. She wants to save her city and has seen how bad things are in the streets now.

Technically she only took her jacket, although I think Sara had it back in Lost Souls.  But she's wearing black leather like Sara, she had a long blonde wig like Sara, a black mask like her and a canary cry.  And she's a Canary, like Sara.

 

I know the reason for it is because Laurel Lance is the Black Canary in the comics so it would have been a leap to make her another kind of bird (Goshawk) or even Manhunter which a few here wanted.  But because is she so much like Sara's Canary, the comparisons are inevitable.

 

Also having Sara be killed off to make Laurel the Black Canary is forever going to be a no-win situation for Laurel.  They should have had Sara missing instead.

[apinknightmare]

It's a show-created problem. They didn't know what they were doing with Sara, and if they didn't intend for her to be the actual Black Canary, then they should've given her a different identity entirely. Giving her the Canary name, and the whole reason for having it, was incredibly stupid if they were intending on sticking to their original plans. 

 

So, I don't think the comparisons will ever stop, and that's the show runners' fault.

Edited November 24, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

This is a persistent rumor, but until I see an actual source, I'm going to believe this is more from the people that still insist that LoT is/should be some sort of anthology series.

I absolutely believe we could have more cast turnover than the other two shows, but I don't believe there's going to be a whole cast change from season to season.

So like this?

At a certain point, we will have darkness emerge and characters will betray one another and be tempted by the dark side. And others might not make it along for the full trip. And others might be lost in weird time periods.

 

It’s an anthology show. This is not designed to go forever. This season is meant to be standalone … I mean not as anthological as ‘True Detective.’ But not everybody will be continuing on this journey. The sort of central premise of time travel and Vandal Savage is totally up for grabs. This is meant to be a season that is tightly serialized that, when it’s over, you can’t go home again. It’s not going to begin Season 2 with us all hopping back on the same ship and like ‘Let’s get Vandal! Let’s get him for real this time!’ This is not traditional episodic television.

http://screencrush.com/legends-of-tomorrow-season-2-anthology-cast/

[Sakura12]

I read on Twitter that the cast of LOT would be changing season to season. Had anyone else heard this?

 

I don't think it's the entire cast, just that some won't be around if they get to season 2. Some may die or get stuck in time, so they can introduce new heroes. Since they have no idea how the show will do, I think it also will depend on popularity of the characters. 

 

With Sara and Laurel. If they didn't want Sara to be Black Canary then they shouldn't have made her Black Canary in everything but the name, while giving Laurel only the name. 

 

With the hero name, we only have the in show reason for Laurel getting called Black Canary as an insult by Quentin. There was no indication she was going to choose a different name until that moment. We have to go by canon from the show and the shows canon is Laurel got her name from an insult by her father. While Sara choose her name because of childhood pet and seeing a canary while she almost died floating around in the ocean. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Sakura12

[Primal Slayer]

It's a show-created problem. They didn't know what they were doing with Sara, and if they didn't intend for her to be the actual Black Canary, then they should've given her a different identity entirely. Giving her the Canary name, and the whole reason for having it, was incredibly stupid if they were intending on sticking to their original plans. 

That's why they should've went with Ravager like they originally intended. But they get to have their cake and eat it to. 

[jay741982]

So is Black Canary in danger on Arrow?

http://www.latino-review.com/news/hot-rumor-alona-tal-abbey-lee-being-eyed-for-black-canary?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=twitter

I'd love to see Alona Tal being BC in a movie!

[Chaser]

I don't think it's the entire cast, just that some won't be around if they get to season 2. Some may die or get stuck in time, so they can introduce new heroes. Since they have no idea how the show will do, I think it also will depend on popularity of the characters. 

It's just a trailer, but I'm already having a hard time imagining it without Sara and Rip Hunter.

 

ETA: Thanks for the answers! 

Edited November 24, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[apinknightmare]

That's why they should've went with Ravager like they originally intended. But they get to have their cake and eat it to. 

 

Well, coulda, woulda, shoulda. Now they're stuck with the Canary/Black Canary confusion/comparison. It's not going to go away, and that's on them. 

[Starfish35]

So like this?

http://screencrush.com/legends-of-tomorrow-season-2-anthology-cast/

Nowhere does that say there's going to be an entire cast changeover from year to year, and it also explicitly says it's not an anthology series like True Detective or American Horror Story. It's a different story every year, but that doesn't mean the entire cast is changing.

[apinknightmare]

Nowhere does that say there's going to be an entire cast changeover from year to year, and it also explicitly says it's not an anthology series like True Detective or American Horror Story. It's a different story every year, but that doesn't mean the entire cast is changing.

 

I don't see anyone saying that the entire cast was going to change, just that the cast was going to change - which it would if some members left and new ones came on.

[Primal Slayer]

People pick and choose what they want to be canon. Sara has only been called The Canary in show and MG has stated that's her official name. Of course the comparisons will never go away but we have our official names.

[Starfish35]

I don't see anyone saying that the entire cast was going to change, just that the cast was going to change - which it would if some members left and new ones came on.

Right - that's what I said. There's going to be more change than the other two shows, but it's not going to be a full dump and start over each season. Which is what I think of when I think anthology.

[Primal Slayer]

Nowhere does that say there's going to be an entire cast changeover from year to year, and it also explicitly says it's not an anthology series like True Detective or American Horror Story. It's a different story every year, but that doesn't mean the entire cast is changing.

No one ever said there would be an entire cast changeover year to year though. Just that some would make it, some won't, new ones will be added.

[Starfish35]

Then I guess we're all on the same page. *shrug*

[apinknightmare]

People pick and choose what they want to be canon. Sara has only been called The Canary in show and MG has stated that's her official name. Of course the comparisons will never go away but we have our official names.

 

No one's saying that Sara's name was ever canonically the Black Canary, though, are they? Just that people working on the show and from DC called her that occasionally. And she was referred to as the Black Canary on licensed products. 

Right - that's what I said. There's going to be more change than the other two shows, but it's not going to be a full dump and start over each season. Which is what I think of when I think anthology.

 

Sorry, this part threw me off: Nowhere does that say there's going to be an entire cast changeover from year to year. I just didn't see anyone claiming that the entire cast would be changing over. 

[Sakura12]

I am one that would've loved to see Sara and Slade working together. And if we go by Manu who thought Slade loved Sara then we could've gotten them as lovers as well. That would've really messed with Oliver. Having two of his former friends who he thought were dead being together and trying to destroy him. But that is not what we got. We got Black Canary in live action only to lose her because she didn't have the right name. To getting her back because it turned out she was more popular and then she was given her own show.

 

And I know we only got a teaser and I have not context but the scene of Rip yelling at everyone while Sara stand behind him makes it look like she's second in command. Then there's also Sara's wearing a fur coat in the Rip introduction scene which makes me hope that since she's not in the crossover material released so far that she's already been picked up by Rip and traveling through time. And will show up at the end of the Arrow crossover to help out.  

 

Yes, we have to go by canon, then in canon Laurel was given her hero name as an insult from her father. That's a great start to a hero's story. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

Perhaps I misunderstand the initial post. I have seen people (not here) insisting that LoT is going to be/should be a true anthology/miniseries type show with a different cast and story each season. But if that's not what was being referred to I apologize.

[AyChihuahua]

Well, coulda, woulda, shoulda. Now they're stuck with the Canary/Black Canary confusion/comparison. It's not going to go away, and that's on them. 

Yeah, and, it's on the showrunners/writers.  There is no Laurel as presented on Arrow other than the Laurel presented on Arrow.  If you think the Laurel on Arrow sucks, then, well, you think the Arrow on Laurel sucks.  There is no other Arrow version of Laurel.

[Primal Slayer]

 

Yes, we have to go by canon, then in canon Laurel was given her hero name as an insult from her father. That's a great start to a hero's story. 

It was the first time we heard it but that doesn;t mean that her father is the first to actually name her that. Then Oliver never met Laurel in the field after he came back until Canaries or whatever episode they first interacted in while suited up.

[foreverevolving]

We all know those two reasons are the biggest draws for me. Plus I do like the whole Doctor Who/Stargate with super heroes it seems to have going on. 70's Sara looked amazing as well as Captain Cold, Heatwave and Sara starting a bar room brawl. 

 

It also looked like she's changing up her weapons, it looked like she was fighting with swords? I know Caity took some weapons training over the summer, I wonder if they are letting use her new skills. 

 

 

I loved this, Rip's pounding on the table and yelling and Sara's just chilling there behind him. I guess she's really enjoying the 70's.

 

Honestly? I think she's checking his ass. oh, no, no, no, no, no! No this is really bad...  Rip & Sara I think I may ship it before I even saw their interactions, this is bad, this is so, so, bad.-- Seriously! what is wrong with me. My brain is like: must think of a ship name, now!

 

So is Black Canary in danger on Arrow?

http://www.latino-review.com/news/hot-rumor-alona-tal-abbey-lee-being-eyed-for-black-canary?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=twitter

 

Doubtful.. however as an Israeli I can't help but feel a strong sense of national pride that it is possible (though probably not true) that DC comics two biggest female heroines will be portrayed by Israeli's.

Whether she can do the part justice is a different matter.

I'd love to see Alona Tal being BC in a movie!

It be insane! though i was a bit (alot) older, i strongly remember her from a children show that used to (still does? I have no idea) air on our nickelodeon channel equivalent. I can't remember any other work she has done, besides Veronica Mars and Cane and i have very little to zero recollection of her characters from those shows, so I don't know how she may have grown as an actor since than.

Edited November 24, 2015 by foreverevolving

[tarotx]

I think LOT will be like a movie series that has continued themes and characters but deaths will occur and others will be lost in time. This season is like Oceans 11 in time&space. Next season can be more like a western or a horror show or it could be Oceans 12. A different theme with some (or even more than some who knows yet) of the same characters. They want on the table anything can happen.

 

I'm looking at it more like Doctor who than Arrow or the Flash. The Doctor stays but he changes and the Companions change so for the viewers change is always out there looking over your shoulder.

Edited November 24, 2015 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

That's the first time it was said on the show, that is what we have to go by. Just like Sara was only called the Canary on the show. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Sakura12

[Primal Slayer]

I wish Lisa/Golden Glider was part of the team initally, she is more interesting to me then Heatwave. Maybe for a 2nd season.

[apinknightmare]

That's the first time it was said on the show, that is what we have to go by. Just like Sara was only called the Canary.

The way he says it though doesn't indicate whether it's something he heard her call herself or if it's a name he came up with on his own. Edited November 24, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

That's the first time it was said on the show, that is what we have to go by. Just like Sara was only called the Canary on the show. 

That doesn't mean that he named her Black Canary though. There's a difference.

[Sakura12]

They never said why she's called Black Canary or indicated that she was going by that name on the show before then, so until they say something else that is what we have to go by.

 

They gave us a bunch of reasons why Sara choose her name and none for Laurel. Then there is also the fact that black is the color of the outfit that they both were wearing. Canary in black, black Canary same thing. Plus I also see BC going by Canary even in the comics. 

[Princess Vanellope]

Where is the dead horse gif when you need it lol

ETA: what is seen onscreen is what happened. We have no proof otherwise, and I sincerely doubt that we ever will. So with that in mind, QL is the one who brought the moniker to the show, and thus according to THIS SHOW, he introduced the name.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Princess Vanellope

[statsgirl]

That's why they should've went with Ravager like they originally intended. But they get to have their cake and eat it to. 

Isn't Ravager a villain though?  They came down on the Sara being a hero side though. There must have been some DC character they could have named her after.  shakes head in disbelief at the shortsightedness of it.

 

 

I wish Lisa/Golden Glider was part of the team initally, she is more interesting to me then Heatwave. Maybe for a 2nd season.

AK loves his male superheros and villains.  It's quite noticable on The Flash.

[Sakura12]

[Princess Vanellope]

YEEEEEEESSSSSSS!

Poor horsey, so abused by this forum lol

Edited November 24, 2015 by Princess Vanellope