Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[BkWurm1]

I'm not sure if that's really true. But I think that was a byproduct of the gap they had with Eddie and the secret.

 

It's entirely possible that it isn't entirely true but it FEELS true and right now, they aren't giving them anything lately and while they might have given them a lot in the beginning of the 1st season, I'm positive they did not  go there (except to undo it) in the later part of the season so that kind of colors my memory of ALL their times together. 

The rooftop conversation between Iris and the Flash before she found out. The kiss before Barry changed the timeline. The rescue a few episodes ago. Each time I think.....that. Give me more of that and I could really get on board with this ship.

 

In each of those cases (and I'd add in the double date at the bowling alley) I really felt their mutual focus on each other.  So in the moment together. 

 

 

"Plus it is always easier for an audience to relate to a pairing when they see it from its beginning. The first meet, the getting to know each other, etc. "

Not always. Some of my favorite pairings include people who were already acquainted...or even together. Like best couple of all time, Eric and Tami.

I've notice that if a show hands me a couple that is already together (and plans on mostly leaving them together) I can be very happy with their relationship and it's ups and downs.  But if the show starts with the two characters not together, I want to be there to see what makes them fall for each other.  So an old flame coming into town never works for me because I want to see the first big sparks.  The old love is the kind of set up where I can believe the history they have together but I don't have a reason to be invested.

 

Iris and Barry were given a really pleasant history with each other.  Been friends and basically family since children.  BFF's, think the world of each other.  Trust and know each other like no one else.  It's a huge contrast compared to Oliver and Laurel.  But Barry had already fallen and Iris was clueless and then all that trust was undone when Barry agreed not to tell his secret and then it got messy and uncomfortable when he tried to force the issue and by then I also loved Eddie and liked Iris with him and since Barry and Iris's relationship was established before I got there, I wasn't invested in them beyond keeping them as friends.   

 

The show should be able to show me them working as more than friends but part of the problem is their BFF status.  Once they get together, realistically there won't be a good reason to break them up. Sure they will have ups and downs but I still think planning on getting a pair together and keeping them together scares the pants off producers and writers.  It shouldn't because Flash is not propelled by romance at all so putting Barry in a permanent relationship shouldn't really change anything - except give less time for the Barry - Joe Romance.  So in the meantime we get poor Patty as a stall, destined to get her heart broke and by no means guaranteed to get out alive. 

Edited November 14, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

"Plus it is always easier for an audience to relate to a pairing when they see it from its beginning. The first meet, the getting to know each other, etc. "

Not always. Some of my favorite pairings include people who were already acquainted...or even together. Like best couple of all time, Eric and Tami.

I don't mind them being acquainted. I can buy relationships that are pre-existing or have a pre-show history. I bought Caitlin & Ronnie. Eric & Tami were old (not wicked old) but I consider married couples in a separate category than couples that are getting together as part of the narrative/overall story.

 

What I mind is BA developing sexual feelings towards his quasi-sister while being raised by the same Dad in the same house. Some kids have been moved out of foster homes if a romantic relationship develops between the foster & fostee kids.

 

They could have kept them acquainted and friends/quasi-siblings. I just need a timeline that does not have me imagining a pre-teen BA whacking off to his quasi-sister in the next bedroom and then a few years later just casually talking to her father (who for all intense purposes was his father) about how he has deep feelings for her. I needed a little breathing room between their childhood and BA's feelings, especially since I am just meeting both of them as characters.

[Serena]

What I mind is BA developing sexual feelings towards his quasi-sister while being raised by the same Dad in the same house. Some kids have been moved out of foster homes if a romantic relationship develops between the foster & fostee kids.

Iris and Barry are in the same situation as Kara and Alex on Supergirl. Adopted siblings, grew up and lived together from the time Kara was about 12 (Barry Allen was even younger when he started living with the Wests). And I think anyone would agree that Kara and Alex suddenly developing feelings for each other would be way, way creepy. I bet if anyone asked the Supergirl showrunners "Will Kara and Alex ever get together?" they'd answer "Ew, no! They're sisters!". 

 

People being put off by Westallen is normal IMO. And Iris initially shutting Barry down hard is as well. It's a CREEPY situation.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Serena

[tv echo]

Sorry for this comparison, but... Barry and Iris are like Dawson and Joey - grew up together and have more of a sibling vibe than a romantic vibe.  YMMV.

[apinknightmare]

People being put off by Westallen is normal IMO. And Iris initially shurring Barry down hard is as well. It's a CREEPY situation.

 

It doesn't help that during one of the first Iris/Barry reactions, Iris actually said, "We're kind of like brother and sister." Who, WHO thought that was a good idea?! I know they needed a base point to establish Iris's feelings for Barry, but for god's sake JUST SAY FRIENDS. FRIENDS WORKS.

 

I honestly don't care about any relationships on The Flash enough to actively ship, but I like Iris a lot. If she eventually wants Barry for whatever reason, then I want her to have him. 

[dtissagirl]

I don't care much for the 'ships on Flash either, but imo, if they had started the show with Iris thinking of Barry as her brother BUT WITHOUT HIM ALREADY IN LOVE, I might have been able to get over it. Because then they could have made Barry fall for Iris as the first season [or first two seasons, even] progressed, and I'd be able to get invested in his feelings for her. As they set it up, my main reaction was "ew, gross".

[Starfish35]

"Plus it is always easier for an audience to relate to a pairing when they see it from its beginning. The first meet, the getting to know each other, etc. "

Not always. Some of my favorite pairings include people who were already acquainted...or even together. Like best couple of all time, Eric and Tami.

You're right - I should have said "generally easier" rather than "always easier". I don't think married couples count, for reasons that others have explained, but even outside that, I can think of a few exceptions. Diggle and Lyla for one (although they're not a primary pairing so I'm not sure if they count). The thing is, though, they're exceptions, not the general rule. Generally speaking, I think it's easier to get on board with a couple if you see the "meet cute", the follow up, the growth.

But both Arrow and Flash have gone beyond just having them know each other prior to the show starting. Oliver and Laurel weren't just exes, they were exes where he cheated on her with her sister (and other women) and got her sister killed (or so we were supposed to believe in the premiere). I mean.....wow. And Iris isn't just the girl next door that Barry knew all his life, he actually grew up in the same house with her, and her father is his major father figure. I guess I just don't understand why they wanted to put that extra level of complication in. The only reason I can think of is that they wanted the father/son relationship between Barry and Joe, and Barry's relationship with Iris was a lower priority in their consideration.

ETA: Here's another thought. Remove both relationships from their comic book context. Change the names. Does anyone want Amy to get back together with Bryce who cheated on her with her own sister (and a bunch of other women) and got her sister killed? Do we want Craig to get together with Dawn who he grew up in the same house with and who he's had a crush on all his life, but she doesn't really see him the same way, or do we want him to grow up and move on? In other words, what I'm saying is....give us reasons to root for these relationships outside of "because comics". Because while Lauriver is well and truly sunk (thank goodness), it feels like they're just coasting with WestAllen on the strength of comics canon, and they feel like they don't have to put any work into it, because Barry and Iris are "meant to be", and we all know they'll get around to it eventually. Well, that's not how it works.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[wingster55]

I don't really see anything creepy about them living in the same house from age 12 to 17 (guesstimating). They went out of their way to say they aren't actually like that.

Plus even pre murder they were likely always together anyways.

[apinknightmare]

Except Iris actually did say they were kind of like brother and sister. 

[statsgirl]

I don't have a problem with them growing up in the same house because I didn't see them being sibling-like all those years. 

 

But this:

Just to expand on what I mean, it's like when Iris would come to the station and she and Barry would smile and chit chat but Iris was always there for some other reason.  Barry was just there. She wasn't usually there to see Barry or talk to him so it to me usually felt like she was happy enough to see him, but was more focused on what came next or if she was asking a question, focused on the answer, not on Barry.  

 

Or like in the coffee house the first time she see's Oliver.  She talks to Barry but boy oh boy is she not focused on Barry.  It was like that when she would share whatever was going on in her life.  She was sharing with Barry but wasn't hung up on getting a certain look or reaction back from him. 

 

In contrast, when Patty is talking to Barry, even on some flimsy pretext, she is totally focused on Barry and his reactions and what he thinks and feels.  It makes sense.  He's new and she's crushing on him. 

I knew going into the show that Iris was going to be Barry's OTP but while they have great sibling chemistry, they have zero romantic chemistry.  Iris/Eddie blew WestAllen out of the water in terms of sexual/romantic chemistry.

 

I can see Barry and Iris having a very comfortable marriage if they don't marry anyone else and working well together, but it's not the highs and lows of an epic love.  But right now Patty, for all she's Mary Sue-like, shows the passion of someone who is really into Barry in a romantic way.

 

It's about what I see on my screen.  Also it was very stupid to have Barry tell Iris how he felt about her after she had decided to move in with Eddie.  It made him look like a creep.

[wingster55]

Except Iris actually did say they were kind of like brother and sister.

You mean when she said "we're not actually brother and sister"

[apinknightmare]

You mean when she said "we're not actually brother and sister"

 

Her pointing out the fact that they're not actually blood related in the same breath where she says that she feels like they're brother and sister doesn't make it all that better? It's not the growing up together and in the same house that's weird, it's that the very first vocalization that we have from Iris about the way she feels towards Barry is that she thinks they're "kind of like brother and sister." 

[wingster55]

But she doesn't think that. That was the point of her statement. That they aren't so they can discuss relationships.

[Starfish35]

Actual dialogue: (courtesy of Forever Dreaming Transcripts)

Iris: "Even though we pretty much grew up in the same house together, and we're kind of like brother and sister, because we're not brother and sister, it can get really weird and awkward to talk to me about girls. But I just want you to know that it shouldn't be awkward. There is nothing that I want more than for you to meet the right person that totally loves and adores you for the amazing guy that you are."

Iris is basically saying that it might feel awkward to Barry because they're not actually related, but that it shouldn't be. Basically she's telling Barry that he should just treat her like a sister.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[statsgirl]

 

"There is nothing that I want more than for you to meet the right person that totally loves and adores you for the amazing guy that you are."

That kind of kills any idea of romance between these two characters right there.  If she was at all interested in him romantically, she wouldn't have said that.  Really stupid writing.

 

Iris crushing on The Flash last season made it worse because she was hung up on the image, not the actual man. 

Edited November 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

But she doesn't think that. That was the point of her statement. That they aren't so they can discuss relationships.

 

Yes she does. She was telling Barry that even though it might be awkward to talk to her like a sister because she isn't actually his sister, he should go ahead and confide in her like that anyway. It was a stupid line for someone to write knowing that these two would be love interests, and someone with some sense should've cut it.

[hogwash]

The brother and sister thing is bad but not insurmountable considering they're obviously not siblings + they were 11-13 years old when Barry moved in. What's bad is that they kept giving Iris these chances to show any inkling of romantic feelings for Barry and she just...doesn't. The biggest clues about her feelings disappeared in Out of Time. If you squint, you can kinda make an argument that there's something (anything!) there. But that might just be Joe talking. 

 

Barry's in a coma for 9+ months. Nothing. Barry confesses his feeling. She says nah, gives him an apologetic smile, and moves in with Eddie. She finds out she and Barry are married in the future. Nada. Then she chooses Eddie despite knowing all of this + impending shitstorm happening in the S01 finale. 

 

Obviously, people can choose who they want to be with. But this is a show. They're supposed to get married and make mini Flashes. Why isn't she remotely interested in him?? Still??? I have a feeling that when (if?) it happens it's gonna be a rushed mess. 

[Starfish35]

No, I don't think it's insurmountable (at least, not for me). But they didn't do themselves any favors by starting it out that way, and they're not doing themselves any favors by how they're treating the relationship this season. By all means, have them involved with other people. But they need to continue to maintain/grow the connection between the two of them, or it's not going to be that convincing when they finally do get together.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[apinknightmare]

I'm not anti Barry/Iris at all - and I don't think that it would be weird for them to have feelings for each other even after growing up in the same house together. I don't think that's gross or insurmountable, but the brother/sister line was pretty ick for me. I'll never understand why anyone thought that was a good idea, and I completely understand if that turned some people off the pairing. It's a terrible way to jump start a ship - if we needed a barometer for Iris's feelings, she could just say he's her best friend in the world, and leave it at that. That's good enough. No need ever EVER to bring brother/sister-ness into it.

 

I'm not Barry's biggest fan, but I do like Iris a whole lot, and I agree that she really hasn't shown very much interest in him other than the first interactions with The Flash. But that always left a bad taste in my mouth, because I felt like Barry was being kind of gross working that angle with her knowing how he felt about her. Like I wrote above, if Iris wants him, then I want her to have him, but it just doesn't seem like she wants him at all so far (and I say that without having seen the past two eps).

Edited November 14, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Iris/Eddie and now Barry/Patty is to me like bringing on Sara as The Canary and then the next season presenting Laurel as the Black Canary. "How you gonna keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen Paree?"

[Starfish35]

I think one thing for me personally is that I never liked Eddie all that much, so I never really bought into Iris/Eddie. So that wasn't as much of an obstacle for me personally. (And it's even harder this season because she's showed little to no reaction to his death.) I do like Patty though, a lot, so that is more of an issue. For me.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[hogwash]

I've been watching regularly and she's still not interested. They should be pushing them as BFFs now that Barry's backed off. 

[Ann Mack]

I think one thing for me personally is that I never liked Eddie all that much, so I never really bought into Iris/Eddie. So that wasn't as much of an obstacle for me personally. (And it's even harder this season because she's showed little to no reaction to his death.) I do like Patty though, a lot, so that is more of an issue. For me.

It's not that Iris has shown no interest its that the show/writers are sidelining her and her POVs to push Barry and Patty. To which I say is ridiculous, even if the show wants the audience to perceive/believe Iris is mourning Eddie (cause they surely aren't showing it) they could let her drop at least one line about how she's feeling and let Barry her BFF be there to support her. They have given little to no interaction between Barry and Iris. I mean he's supposedly her BFF he knows she's going through the loss of Eddie and some things with her mom but yet he asks Joe how she's doing? I really think the writers don't want fans to recall S1 and how she was the sun and the moon to Barry.

 

I can understand if the show wants to go in a different direction with Barry and Iris this season that's fine but at the same time its like they are again trying to undo all that happened in S1. As for Patty I really don't care but for 2 things: 1. She's a cheap knock off of Felicity. Felicity/Emily Bett Rickards is a rare gem, you can't take her quirkiness and things that make her unique and try to project or instill them in someone else. It's not working. 2. They have made her too into the same things that Barry likes (Patty is like Barry looking in the mirror and still only seeing himself) . Plus they have this grown ass woman running round acting like a tween who's about to have her first kiss from the guy she passed note to in math class and he checked the "yes box". 

 

I'm trying to stay interested in this season. Unfortunately its not the lead star who is holding my interest but Cisco and new Dr, Harrison Wells. The best part of the whole last episode was those 2 and Zoom.

 

Next week Grodd returns and I'm getting back to my sidelining of Iris portion again just check the preview. Iris is a journalist who has had interaction with Team Flash in dealing with Grodd hell she was Barry's beacon  and helped him block Grodd's mind control link so he could at least escape him. But who do we get Patty pretty much spewing closely what Iris said last season. Just not sure what the show is trying to do with the love stories this year but I'm already over them and Patty.

 

BTW also over these writers having Caitlin throwing herself at Jay after Ronnie has only been dead for about 6 months. But at least she's allowed to mention Ronnie's name I don't think Iris has said Eddie's name at all this season! Iris did however get to glance at Eddie's photo on the precinct wall.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Ann Mack

[AyChihuahua]

I'm trying to stay interested in this season. Unfortunately its not the lead star who is holding my interest but Cisco and new Dr, Harrison Wells. The best part of the whole last episode was those 2 and Zoom.

...

BTW also over these writers having Caitlin throwing herself at Jay after Ronnie has only been dead for about 6 months. But at least she's allowed to mention Ronnie's name I don't think Iris has said Eddie's name at all this season! Iris did however get to glance at Eddie's photo on the precinct wall.

I LOVE new Wells.  It's funny how different Cavanaugh is playing him, even though he's the same actor playing sort of the same character.  I frigging love it, and think he should get an Emmy or something.  And yeah, I still love Cisco.  Those are the only two characters I am both interested in and like.  (I mean, New Wells is a dick, but I still like him.)  I liked and was interested in Dr. Stein, but that's over.  I like Iris, but don't have any interest in her.  That is it for me.  Legit don't care/don't like any other character (although most of the actors are great), and could not care less about ANY romantic relationship on the show.  I think Kreisberg is doing a really terrible job, actually.  

 

Oh, Zoom is kind of scary, but really, another speedster as the primary villain again?  Booooooring.

[wingster55]

That kind of kills any idea of romance between these two characters right there. If she was at all interested in him romantically, she wouldn't have said that. Really stupid writing.

Iris crushing on The Flash last season made it worse because she was hung up on the image, not the actual man.

How exactly? Because she thinks he's great and deserving of a great girl? That's basically half the battle. "I love you and I like you"

[apinknightmare]

How exactly? Because she thinks he's great and deserving of a great girl? That's basically half the battle. "I love you and I like you"

 

Because it was coupled with her telling him that he should confide in her like she was his sister. 

[BkWurm1]

How exactly? Because she thinks he's great and deserving of a great girl? That's basically half the battle. "I love you and I like you"

The problem is how happy Iris was to help him find and fall in love with NOT HER. 

 

Still, the Iris / Barry problem really wouldn't be that hard to fix if they'd just put some time into it. 

Edited November 14, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

The problem is how happy Iris was to help him find and fall in love with NOT HER. 

 

I mean, they can come back from that. They were trying to show that she didn't think of him at all that way at the time (presumably to show her feelings for him growing at some point during the course of the show), but feelings always change. It only gets weird if the person you start having feelings for is someone you at one point considered to be like your brother. ;) 

[wingster55]

She only mentioned that to clarify they weren't. As in some may think that but nope.

Plus she always had unconscious feelings for him.

[quarks]

Iris may well have had unconscious feelings, but at the end of the day, she chose Eddie instead of Barry more than once: after Barry told her that he loved her, after she found out that Barry was the Flash, and even after she found out that in at least one timeline, she and Barry got married.  

 

That for me, at least, is the bigger obstacle - well, that and the problem that Barry kept lying to Iris, something that he's also doing with Patty right now, putting her in an uncomfortable position with Joe. Which is why, although I'm not against Barry/Iris or Barry/Patty, I tend to have a slight preference for Barry/Caitlin (yep, Caitlin also chose someone else at the end of last season, and is choosing someone else now, but Barry's never offered himself to her as an option) or Barry/Linda.  And I'm still regretting that Flash never did anything with Barry/Eddie.

[wingster55]

Well she couldn't just drop Eddie after making the commitment to move in just cause Barry came clean.

Why would she dump Eddie after finding out Barry was the Flash?

And she got back with Eddie out of a bit of stubbornness. A "no one can decide my fate"...and it'd be silly to be "Barry I'm with you because of a newspaper in the future that an evil speedster possessed ". But notice Thawne still existed..his existence was dependent on Eddie NOT ending with Iris.

[kismet]

I think they could revisit iris & barry in a few seasons. Give me time and experiences to see their deep connection without their Dad playing message boy. I never liked the lying between IW, JW & BA because it violated years of trust & love.

But I don't mind it with Patty & Barry cuz it has a Lois & Clark feel to it. I don't think GG will ever exude sex appeal. At least he looks older and age appropriate. He is no longer a boy anymore. Thx u TPTB for not forcing him to shave all the time. I like him with Patty because when they are together I'm not bored like I am with 90% of what the Flash is producing.

This convo all started with GGs chemistry savant abilities. And as much as I think GG can have a type of chemistry with just about everything & everyone, it is not enough for me to keep the show interesting. I feel like I can't wait for LoT setup to be done on Arrow so we can get back to Arrow. But not sure about Flash because for me at least it gave them plots. It's a charismatic cast but the show is crap. It's just meh. Take out the cgi and its a cheap knockoff of an after school tv special.

[wingster55]

I think the show had to put plots on hold for LOT. Zoom, E2 Wells and Iris story all either took 5 eps to show (or still haven't)

[Starfish35]

I don't think anything was put on hold on the Flash side for LoT. Firestorm and Cold would still have been around and been involved in the show somehow, and other than Kendra showing up for a few moments at Jitters, there's been no other LoT setup on Flash.

I'm debating whether anything was really put on hold on the Arrow side as well. I know we've spent a lot more time on it than Flash has, though arguably it's been more in service of Arrow characters and relationships than in service of LoT characters. But it has delayed getting the action really started on the DD/H.I.V.E. front. But on the other hand.....we usually don't get the main villain up front like we did this year. There usually is a fair amount of wheel spinning until the mid season finale anyway. Last year there was little to no progress made on finding Sara's killer until the midseason finale, then suddenly, it's Malcolm! (ok, Thea, but Malcolm.) So I totally get why it feels like everything's been put on hold for LoT, but I'm not sure, looking at the pattern of how previous seasons have played out, that it would be much different even if LoT wasn't in the picture. We wouldn't have had a 4+ episode resurrection arc for Sara, that much is true. But that arc was more about Laurel than Sara, and perhaps, having gotten Laurel's "trilogy" out of the way for the season, it means that we will get focus on other characters during the time that she usually gets her episodes (11-14ish).

[wingster55]

Cold got a sympathetic background and shown he cares and can be a hero. If he wasn't going to LOT would that have happened?

There was an entire plot about a character who was introduced just for the sole purpose of shipping him off at the end of the episode.

[EmilyBettFan]

They also had Patty call Joe, Barry's Dad. Lol

[Starfish35]

Cold got a sympathetic background and shown he cares and can be a hero. If he wasn't going to LOT would that have happened?

Perhaps not, but as I said in an earlier post, I would bet money that we still would have had a Captain Cold episode in the first half of the season even if LoT wasn't on the table (the writers seem to be very fond of the character). It just might not have ended with giving him the more sympathetic slant. So no, I don't think it took any more time away from Flash than it would have gotten anyway. A Captain Cold recurring villain episode vs a Captain Cold setup for antihero episode. What's the difference, time wise?

There was an entire plot about a character who was introduced just for the sole purpose of shipping him off at the end of the episode.

I'm assuming you're talking about Jax. If LoT wasn't a thing, I'm guessing Robbie Amell would still be playing the other half of Firestorm, which would mean he and Caitlin would still be involved, which would very likely mean at least one episode in the first half of the season dealing with that relationship. So instead of a Ronnie and Caitlin Firestorm episode we got a Jax Firestorm episode. It's a wash as far as I'm concerned.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Starfish35

[kismet]

Cold got a sympathetic background and shown he cares and can be a hero. If he wasn't going to LOT would that have happened?

There was an entire plot about a character who was introduced just for the sole purpose of shipping him off at the end of the episode.

We probably would have got Capt Cold the E2 version!

The Jax episode for me served as closure for Caitlin. And felt like a redemptive episode for BA cuz he reaffirmed why he was trying to be a hero. It felt a lot about BA than Jax. Since most of s1 boiled down to I want to selfishly save my Mom and not I want to be a selfless hero. It was plotty Jax but emotionally about Flas characters.

Edited November 15, 2015 by kismet

[nksarmi]

IDK, the growing-up together is a little too creepy to me for the romantic feelings to develop while you are being raised as quasi-siblings. I think it would have worked better if they had BA figure out he might like IW as more than a sister/friend after some time apart, maybe in like s3 or so when we could have seen a spark developing over multiple seasons. But now it feels a little quasi incestual, especially the way Joe seems to talk about it.

 

But I do agree that the problem for the show is more a lack of character development and follow-through. A lot of the show is plot and when they do have a character moment they undo it by some wacky science thing. But it keeps the show fun & light, so I guess TPTB think the formula works.

The perfect dynamic for Barry/Iris would have been that he DID crush on her before he moved in with them but then we he went off to college, he had a couple of good college girlfriends and maybe one broke his heart so that by the time he met Felicity he was ready to try again but then BAM! bolt of lightning.  Then they should have let Felicity and Barry try but instead of "feelings for other people" getting in the way - life just did and neither one of them wanted to move so it doesn't work out.  Then after Iris figures things out and then they have a couple of seasons of working together like when he saved her from the slum lord guys - then they realize they love each other and get together.

 

The whole "he's been obsessed with her/crushing on her/she's the perfect woman who no one can ever replace in his heart" thing was too much.  Then her being with a perfectly decent guy who you couldn't help but route for despite the fact that you knew it wasn't the comic book pairing did NOT help that ship.  I think the writers are trying to repair the foundations of the West Allen ship now but damn, they muffed it from the start.  The only thing to be grateful is that he didn't muff it in the same awful way the muffed Oliver/Laurel from the start.  The West Allen ship at least stands a chance - the Oliver/Laurel one never did in my opinion.

[nksarmi]

They also had Patty call Joe, Barry's Dad. Lol

Yea I am guessing that somewhere, someone thinks its ok to keep hitting the Joe/Barry father/son note because he'll be his father-in-law someday but damn it - no, it's not ok because it reminds us all the time why Iris should think of Barry as a brother -  not a love interest. 

[tarotx]

For me Joe has to die before I can fully support West/Allen. Everytime I hear Joe is Barry's dad I can't see Iris&Barry anything other than siblings. Maybe Patty can be bad and kill Joe. Then Barry can run away For the summer. When he comes back him and Iris can start hanging out because she wants Barry to know it's not his fault and hang out because they both kind of have been running from loss.

But Joe getting himself a real son might help the dynamic a bit so Joe won't have to die for me to unsee the slibing West/Allen.

[KirkB]

Has there ever been an explanation as to why Joe semi-adopted Barry? I mean, did the Wests and Allens know each other? From what I recall of the first season Joe was one of the cops who arrested Henry and got him sent to prison, so why would a random cop adopt a kid from one of his cases?

[jaytee1812]

Has there ever been an explanation as to why Joe semi-adopted Barry? I mean, did the Wests and Allens know each other? From what I recall of the first season Joe was one of the cops who arrested Henry and got him sent to prison, so why would a random cop adopt a kid from one of his cases?

I think they did know each other, certainly Barry and Iris were already friends.

[BkWurm1]

I think the Allen's and West's lived in the same neighborhood. At the very least we know that Barry was already crushing on Iris before his mom died and her father took him in. I want to say he and Iris were already best friends.

Edit: Or what Jaytee1812 said.

Edited November 15, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

I personally don't mind Joe being referred to as Barry's dad. Barry went to live with the Wests when he was old enough to be considered part of the family, but not young enough to be raised to think of Iris as his sister. The fact that Iris ever thought of Barry as a brother and wanted him to talk to her like she was his sister makes it kind of ick, though. What I find really strange about it is apart from the whole thing when Barry first started dating Linda and Iris stirred the pot a little, she hasn't really shown that she gives much of a shit about Barry romantically. And just not even a few eps ago he was waffling on asking Patty out because of how he felt about Iris, so...yeah. It's weird.

[dtissagirl]

It feels like because these are comic canon 'ships, the EPs think they have to come up with impediments to stall getting them together... and then they go overboard on what kind of impediments they do. O/L got sister swapping, B/I got pseudo incest. On top of starting the romantic storyline in media res, with all sorts of feelings already in place, instead of letting the audience watch those feelings develop from the start. Messy story arc outlining is messy.

[wingster55]

People call their in laws dad or mom sometimes. Barry just got a head start.

Iris reacted to Linda the same way she did to Becky Cooper in high school. And Patty she said "she's so great " in a very fake voice if that makes sense.

And yes Joe took Barry in because Iris already was best friends with Barry. No adoption or even fostering

[apinknightmare]

Nah, Iris seemed sincere about Patty. Not only that, but she encouraged Barry not to cancel their date when he wanted to, and on top of that figured out that Cisco could help Barry hide his "blindness" with the whole camera in the glasses thing. She really doesn't seem to care that he's dating, and actually seems happy for him that he is. 

[Starfish35]

CBS Replaces Monday's Terrorism-Themed Supergirl, NCIS: LA Episodes in Wake of Paris Attacks

CBS has pulled Monday’s originally-scheduled episodes of Supergirl and NCIS: Los Angeles in the wake of Friday’s terrorist attacks in Paris that left nearly 130 people dead.

Different episodes of each series will air instead. According to a CBS insider, the move was made “out of sensitivity and respect to the events that occurred.”

The scrapped Supergirl episode. titled “How Does She Do It?” had Kara dealing with bombings throughout National City. It will be replaced by the Thanksgiving-themed “Livewire,” which was originally scheduled to air the following week.

http://tvline.com/2015/11/15/supergirl-paris-attacks-cbs-schedule/

Also reported on Deadline:

http://deadline.com/2015/11/supergirl-ncis-los-angeles-terrorism-themed-episodes-replaced-paris-attacks-1201624282/

Edited to update quote.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Starfish35

[wingster55]

Nah, Iris seemed sincere about Patty. Not only that, but she encouraged Barry not to cancel their date when he wanted to, and on top of that figured out that Cisco could help Barry hide his "blindness" with the whole camera in the glasses thing. She really doesn't seem to care that he's dating, and actually seems happy for him that he is.

I just interpret her tone differently. And she helped because she's always been 200% Team Barry

CBS Replaces Monday's Terrorism-Themed Supergirl, NCIS: LA Episodes in Wake of Paris Attacks

http://tvline.com/2015/11/15/supergirl-paris-attacks-cbs-schedule/

Also reported on Deadline:

http://deadline.com/2015/11/supergirl-ncis-los-angeles-terrorism-themed-episodes-replaced-paris-attacks-1201624282/

Smart call by CBS Edited November 15, 2015 by wingster55