S13.E09: The Bad Place

[Pondlass1]

19 minutes ago, Ria said:

  21 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I just find it sad that the Winchester's legacy will be villains and the worlds biggest threat rather than ending the show as heroes.

They're not caped crusaders wearing tights but they're heroes in my book.  The flawed human kind.

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I just find it sad that the Winchester's legacy will be villains and the worlds biggest threat rather than ending the show as heroes.

I don't think that's going to be their legacy at all. 

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Claire was already the Dean in the group

God, no! Kaia has the smart assery pulp culture references, but is also appears to be someone able to take care of herself and has some damn common sense and can think on her feet. Claire is more Cass, if you ask me. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

However, I do agree there was no need for the scene at all.  It's caused a bit of a ruckus online.  She could have just reluctantly gone with.  But still, we got some dark acting from Jensen.  I mean, who'd cross this guy?  I wouldn't.

Whether or not the audience or Kaia thinks Dean would have pulled the trigger or not doesn't matter to me. He could have grabbed Kaia by the arm which is bad and shouted at her in the same way, and kept the gun at his side. But that's not what happened.

That scene exists for a reason be it to make the audience feel sorry and worry for Kaia, to show Dean's desperation which is what I think came out of nowhere, or to show something about Dean's Hell trauma.

And FOR ME,  Berens/Dabb got some splainin' to do about Dean's head space there. Just 'I have to save Mom, Dean's guilt etc" is not sufficient. It's a teenage girl he did that too. That changes everything given Dean's history with dealing with teenage girls which is not putting a gun in their face except Emma who was potentially there to kill him. But even that was Dean standing several feet from her and not getting right in her face. 

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think that's going to be their legacy at all. 

God, no! Kaia has the smart assery pulp culture references, but is also appears to be someone able to take care of herself and has some damn common sense and can think on her feet. Claire is more Cass, if you ask me. 

Okay well I don't see the parallel to Dean and Kaia. I'm talking about the Claire had the pop culture references, the snark, etc, before she was dumb in her hunting. But that's just me. 

12 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

They're not caped crusaders wearing tights but they're heroes in my book.  The flawed human kind.

They are not caped crusaders but what Dean did here? That's not heroic. That's not even anti-hero stuff.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay well I don't see the parallel to Dean and Kaia. I'm talking about the Claire had the pop culture references, the snark, etc, before she was dumb in her hunting. But that's just me. 

Well, for me, Dean isn't just pop culture references and snark. 

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They are not caped crusaders but what Dean did here? That's not heroic. That's not even anti-hero stuff.

Eh, I don't think Dean was out of line or unheroic in his actions here. I thought it was pretty clear he was desperate to help Mary and had just lost his patience with the debate. I felt like it was a very Dean thing to do, myself and  I never once felt like Kaia was actually in any danger from Dean.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

They are not caped crusaders but what Dean did here? That's not heroic. That's not even anti-hero stuff.

Exactly, it far exceeds the limits of "flawed human", let alone hero. It was a villain move. Someone who does force hapeless, traumatized civilians, teenagers at that, at gunpoint for selfish gains would be a villain in any other story. Heck, even in this show, that is what villains do. The angels abducted Kara for THEIR selfish gain and they were the villains also. What separated them exactly in this episode?

Normally, Dean would be the person to pistol-whip a guy who did what he did here. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, for me, Dean isn't just pop culture references and snark. 

Oh we agree on that point. Actually, I don't see any sufficient parallel to any other character really in any work of fiction for Dean. He's much too unique of character largely because of how Jensen portrays him, the sum total of Dean anyway

What I was trying to say is that  I think Claire was intended by the show itself to be the Dean  mirror back in  S10.

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What I was trying to say is that  I think Claire was intended by the show itself to be the Dean  mirror back in  S10.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think when they did the episode with both Alex and Claire they set it up with Alex being Sam and Claire being Dean, to a certain degree, but I think outside of the construct of that episode, Claire really isn't all that much like Dean, but meant to be more Cass-like in general. 

[Wayward Son]

This isn’t bitch vs jerk because it applies to both brothers. I’ve long rolled my eyes any time the show has tried to tell us Sam and Dean should be viewed as heroes. I haven’t viewed the Winchesters as remotely heroic for a very long time. I think I’ve got into debates with other users on here because I view them as anti-heroes at the very best of times and borderline villainous at the worst of times. They both can be extremely selfish, entitled, and utterly ruthless when they’re desperate and something is important to them. It doesn’t surprise me that the need to save Mary brought out that darker side of Dean just as Dean in peril brings out that side of Sam see Mystery Spot or late s10 - early season 11 for Sam examples.   So could I see Dean shooting an innocent girl like Kaia? Nope - that would cross that border to outright villain. Could I see him making her think he would, to coerce her into doing what he wants? Definitely! 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Exactly, it far exceeds the limits of "flawed human", let alone hero. It was a villain move. Someone who does force hapeless, traumatized civilians, teenagers at that, at gunpoint for selfish gains would be a villain in any other story. Heck, even in this show, that is what villains do. The angels abducted Kara for THEIR selfish gain and they were the villains also. What separated them exactly in this episode?

Normally, Dean would be the person to pistol-whip a guy who did what he did here. 

 

If his actions weren't a problem why did he apologize?  It's a peculiar thing.

It got the job done apparently. He got the result he wanted. So either he believes the end justifies the means and if he wasn't ever going to follow through on the threat why put Dean in that situation at all.

The only answers I can find are

Amp up the fear for Kaia. to build sympathy for her which  already happened with her being kidnapped by the angels and showing us the trauma the dream walking did to her

So is it about how Kaia sees these men around her,?  I'll put a tick in that box.

What is it telling us about Dean? IMO, there wasn't enough show or tell for Dean escalating  things to that level. I am choosing to head canon that he had some of his Hell PTSD triggered by seeing her in that predicament. I can believe his mind raced to every manner of horror being inflicted upon her because of his own experience and that pushed him, barring mind whammy stuff. I can live with subtext about many things  but I need for it be textual in this case because it was such an egregious action. I need for there to be something said by Dean or suggested by someone else that is why he behaved that way towards an innocent teenager.

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

This isn’t bitch vs jerk because it applies to both brothers. I’ve long rolled my eyes any time the show has tried to tell us Sam and Dean should be viewed as heroes. I haven’t viewed the Winchester as remotely heroic for a very long time. I think I’ve got into debates with other users on here because I view them as anti-heroes at the very best of times and borderline villainous at the worst time. They both can be extremely selfish, entitled and utterly ruthless when they’re desperate and something is important to them.

This is probably veering off into other thread territory, but I don't disagree that this is what we see from them sometimes.  I just don't think we're supposed to see them as anything but flawed heroes.  The show is about two brothers who will do anything to save each other, while at the same time trying to save as many people and "kill as many son's of bitches" as possible.  There's been a hell of a lot of collateral damage along the way, but it's almost as if we're not really supposed to notice that.  Even God allows thousands of people to be wiped off the face of the earth and we're just supposed to move on from that.  The problem is and always will be the writing.  

[ILoveReading]

There was scene I liked.  It was near the start of the episode where Dean walks into the War room and drops food on the table.  He sits down and kind of bites his lip and figits a bit.  He just looks so tired and bone wary. 

So while the show appears to have dropped Dean's PTSD and grief arc again, I do appreciate that Jensen is trying to remind viewers. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

There was scene I liked.  It was near the start of the episode where Dean walks into the War room and drops food on the table.  He sits down and kind of bites his lip and figits a bit.  He just looks so tired and bone wary. 

I noticed that as well. It was beautifully done and filmed. Like I think he felt kind of guilty for calling Patience after telling her that she should stick with a normal life. But he's worried about Jack and Cas. 

Dean not calling Cas himself is almost as unbelievable as him putting a gun to a teenager's head. PLOT PLOT PLOT.

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 

If his actions weren't a problem why did he apologize?  It's a peculiar thing.

It got the job done apparently. He got the result he wanted. So either he believes the end justifies the means and if he wasn't ever going to follow through on the threat why put Dean in that situation at all.

The only answers I can find are

Amp up the fear for Kaia. to build sympathy for her which  already happened with her being kidnapped by the angels and showing us the trauma the dream walking did to her

So is it about how Kaia sees these men around her,?  I'll put a tick in that box.

What is it telling us about Dean? IMO, there wasn't enough show or tell for Dean escalating  things to that level. I am choosing to head canon that he had some of his Hell PTSD triggered by seeing her in that predicament. I can believe his mind raced to every manner of horror being inflicted upon her because of his own experience and that pushed him, barring mind whammy stuff. I can live with subtext about many things  but I need for it be textual in this case because it was such an egregious action. I need for there to be something said by Dean or suggested by someone else that is why he behaved that way towards an innocent teenager.

In my opinion the men didn't come off very well in this episode.  From the therapist, Jack, the brothers (Sam isn't squeaky clean either) and Dad they all were trying to manipulate the girls (teenagers) to do what they wanted/needed with no regard to how it was affecting them.  I suppose it was to show that no matter the threat (physical harm or abandonment) the girls chose their own path.  It was a set up for the Wayward Sisters after all....girl power.  I think that Dean was just canon fodder.  

Edited December 9, 2017 by Casseiopeia

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean not calling Cas himself is almost as unbelievable as him putting a gun to a teenager's head. PLOT PLOT PLOT.

My headcanon is this is Dean trying to protect himself.  He can't handle something happening to Cas so if he's checking in with Sam, saying he'd fine then Dean can tell himself that Cas is fine.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I suppose it was to show that no matter the threat (physical harm or abandonment) the girls chose their own path.  It was a set up for the Wayward Sisters after all....girl power.  I think that Dean was just canon fodder.  

This is just as bad as the Flash "hastag!feminism"-episode. If you can`t do it organically, don`t do it. Unfortunately, it is exactly what I expected from the spin-off set-up.  

[Jediknight]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

This is just as bad as the Flash "hastag!feminism"-episode. If you can`t do it organically, don`t do it. Unfortunately, it is exactly what I expected from the spin-off set-up.  

Need to do it like Legends of Tomorrow, Sara and Amaya kick major ass every week, and Zari's getting there (doesn't matter if she's physically kicking ass, or helping Jefferson in this last episode), they do "girl power" every episode, so it doesn't register when they do a girl power episode, because it's not different from the norm.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I just find it sad that the Winchester's legacy will be villains and the worlds biggest threat rather than ending the show as heroes.

They could end the show a couple of years from now with Jack creating Paradise on Earth, and letting it be known that it was because of the Winchester family (Sam, Dean, Cas, Jody, everybody part of their group).  So Sam and Dean would deliver what should be the ultimate evil, to being the ultimate good.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Jediknight

[DittyDotDot]

39 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean not calling Cas himself is almost as unbelievable as him putting a gun to a teenager's head. PLOT PLOT PLOT.

We don't know that Dean didn't call Cass. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

In my opinion the men didn't come off very well in this episode.  From the therapist, Jack, the brothers (Sam isn't squeaky clean either) and Dad they all were trying to manipulate the girls (teenagers) to do what they wanted/needed with no regard to how it was affecting them.  I suppose it was to show that no matter the threat (physical harm or abandonment) the girls chose their own path.  It was a set up for the Wayward Sisters after all....girl power.

I didn't have the impression until I watched it a second time. 

Then it all really became clear to me. And it's pretty aggravating.  I have no problem with Berens showing that girls can choose their own path but why would he put Dean and Sam, the main characters who are at worst anti-heroes, into borderline villains specifically Dean. 

The boys are not perfect. I've never suggested they are. They are spectacularly flawed characters but they have generally been decent towards women and girls. They don't patronize them typically and they don't mistreat them in general.

Dean is not a misogynist (and no I don't have internalized misogyny). Dean has been shitty to women on screen once in s4 when he was 18 and then when he was demon!Dean. He flirts and is promiscuous, and he always accepts NO the first time it's said. He doesn't persist inappropriately. He uses the word 'bitch' towards villains. But never towards human women that I can recall.  

Berens has put Dean into the box of someone women and girls should be afraid of. Wow. 

I'm not saying this show doesn't have some problems with how it's handled it's female characters but that's not the fault of the characters themselves. It's the characters being killed off around Dean and Sam not because Dean and Sam are assholes to the women.

Berens started this with Dean in 13.03 with Dean's not unreasonable advice that Patience stick with the normal life. But it's positioned in the narrative by Berens as "You don't need to listen to a man's just because he's a man" which absolutely true and valid which is not at all what Dean was doing there. Dean agreed with her father because of his life experience as a hunter, not because they both have male chromosomes and not because Dean thinks she's incapable or that Dean was being patronizing. Dean was speaking from his perspective which might be self-centered but it's not patronizing either.

That really didn't sit well with me then and now this is making it worse.

Now if Berens/Dabb make a turn with Dean that his behavior is because of his lingering PTSD and it's not specifically towards women that's fine. But I have an uncomfortable sense that because Dean revealed he actually hated his mother for the deal she made, and she wasn't apparently this perfect mother he never actually thought she was, but because they decided that's what the deal was with Dean, that now he's also making teen girls afraid of him that they are trying to communicate something about Dean that is has not been a core aspect to the character

I mean sure it can all be for the spinoff but it affects Dean's characterization because canonically, he has put a gun in a teenage girl's face, coerced her to do his bidding for a personal quest. And it can't be brushed off like demon!Dean behavior. This was Dean under apparently his own volition. . Where is this going for Dean?

I'm not unconvinced this isn't a deconstruction of Dean which I can live with IF there is a redemption and recognition of something positive for Dean.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Need to do it like Legends of Tomorrow, Sara and Amaya kick major ass every week, and Zari's getting there (doesn't matter if she's physically kicking ass, or helping Jefferson in this last episode), they do "girl power" every episode, so it doesn't register when they do a girl power episode, because it's not different from the norm.

Agreed, they do it superbly.

And I thought Kaia was an interesting character and well-acted actually but the entire set-up with the male characters being twisted and dumbed down doesn`t endear the concept of the Wayward crowd to me.

[MysteryGuest]

I just finished watching the episode again, and while there was a moment when you could clearly see that Dean had lost it, I still don't feel that it's some horrid thing he'll have to repent for, any more than they usually do when they involve an innocent in their fight.  They used Kevin from the get go because they needed him to read the Leviathan tablet.  They weren't overly concerned about some 16 year old kid then.  He was basically told, "yeah, it sucks, but do your job".  Kevin had a gift and so did Kaia, and it was a gift they needed to take advantage of.  I know they were trying to end the Leviathans with Kevin, and this is more personal than that, but it's not like the behavior was unprecedented.  

I'm still not ready for dinosaurs on SPN, so I really hope it's something else.  In Kaia's vision, there were regular-sized beings running around, in addition to the giant skulls, so who knows.  

I don't dislike Patience, but I think Kaia is more interesting.  

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

We don't know that Dean didn't call Cass. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. 

Yeah, in this case, I'm fine with saying it does, given the show makes a production of showing when Dean calls, leaves messages and texts Cas when Cas is off doing something without them. It is possible Dean texted him and left a VM and not spoken with him but again they would have shown him doing it at least once.

If Dean is calling Cas for an update or just to check on his friend, why would Cas call Sam when Dean has a cell phone himself and it's generally on him ALL the time?  Why wouldn't Cas leave Dean a VM communicating the same thing that he's telling Sam over the phone?

There is literally no good character reason for Cas to call Sam before he calls Dean unless he and Dean are fighting which I would absolutely accept as a plot point because maybe Dean is pissed that Cas went off on his own again. But the show hasn't said that is the case, so the only reason for Cas to not be communicating directly with Dean is plot contrivance to maintain the mystery of Casmodeus.

Because it's going to be damaging to both Dean and Sam when that reveal comes about, but it's much more likely for Sam to not pick up that it's not Cas than Dean because they established that Dean DOES ping right away when something is off with Cas

So because they are making a point of NOT showing Dean communicating with Cas, then it is reasonable to deduce that it is not happening off screen either.  IMO YMMV

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm still not ready for dinosaurs on SPN, so I really hope it's something else.  In Kaia's vision, there were regular-sized beings running around, in addition to the giant skulls, so who knows.  

I'm not sure that Sam and Dean ended up in "the bad place". It could be a completely different universe considering we saw a bunch of them...

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah, in this case, I'm fine with saying it does, given the show makes a production of showing when Dean calls, leaves messages and texts Cas when Cas is off doing something without them. It is possible Dean texted him and left a VM and not spoken with him but again they would have shown him doing it at least once.

If Dean is calling Cas for an update or just to check on his friend, why would Cas call Sam when Dean has a cell phone himself and it's generally on him ALL the time?  Why wouldn't Cas leave Dean a VM communicating the same thing that he's telling Sam over the phone?

There is literally no good character reason for Cas to call Sam before he calls Dean unless he and Dean are fighting which I would absolutely accept as a plot point because maybe Dean is pissed that Cas went off on his own again. But the show hasn't said that is the case, so the only reason for Cas to not be communicating directly with Dean is plot contrivance to maintain the mystery of Casmodeus.

Because it's going to be damaging to both Dean and Sam when that reveal comes about, but it's much more likely for Sam to not pick up that it's not Cas than Dean because they established that Dean DOES ping right away when something is off with Cas

So because they are making a point of NOT showing Dean communicating with Cas, then it is reasonable to deduce that it is not happening off screen either.  IMO YMMV

Well considering Asemodeus was imitating Cass in War of the Worlds, I think it possible that Dean did call Cass and Asemodeus picked up. ::shrugs:: 

Edited December 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

Does Cas have the ability to teleport at this point?  I don't think he does, so I'm not sure what good it would have done to call him.  They think they just heard from him, and that he's out looking for Jack.  Once they themselves find Jack, it's not like the had a lot of time to call anyone.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well considering Asemodeus was imitating Cass in War of the Worlds, I think it possible that Dean did call Cass and Asemodeus picked up. ::shrugs:: 

That is the last time we saw Dean call Cas' phone. At the end of the call Dean had a weird look on his face. Since then the only person shown to be communicating with Cas is Sam.

But seriously, why would Cas call Sam if Dean is the one who had called Cas? If the only thing Cas is going to do is tell Sam that he doesn't have a lead on Jack or give a location why doesn't Cas just leave a vm with Dean telling him the same thing? If Dean is asking if Sam has talked to Cas it's because Dean hasn't heard from Cas. If Dean had he would say, yeah Cas left a message and he's blah blah blah.

It's because the writers have set the precedence and the audience will be like 'Nah....Dean will figure out that's not Cas'.  And if he doesn't the audience will call BS on that and they would be right to do so. IMO, it implies that Cas is NOT calling Dean to tell him the same thing he's telling Sam otherwise Dean wouldn't have to ask 'Anything from Cas'.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Since then the only person shown to be communicating with Cas is Sam.

When did Sam communicate with Cass after he was taken by Asemodeus?

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Does Cas have the ability to teleport at this point?  I don't think he does, so I'm not sure what good it would have done to call him.  They think they just heard from him, and that he's out looking for Jack.  Once they themselves find Jack, it's not like the had a lot of time to call anyone.  

Who knows what powers Cas has right now.  But you bring up a good point.

They had time during the car ride to have a heartfelt conversation about how Jack sees Castiel and the boys as his family. I dunno, maybe at that point, Dean or Sam or even Jack could have been like "Oh. Crap. We better call your NOT DAD and knows to stop looking for you because we found you and he should come and meet up with us".  OMG that's really bad.  LOL That's even MORE plot contrivance.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

When did Sam communicate with Cass after he was taken by Asemodeus?

Twice.

Scorpion and the Frog:

Quote

Dean: Anything on Ketch?

Sam: Checked every hospital in a 50-mile radius. Nada

Dean[ Sighs ] Crazy son of a bitch probably pulled the bullet out with his teeth.

Sam: Yeah.

Dean: What about Jack?

Sam: I talked to Cass. He's got nothing. It's like [ Sighs ] We gotta find something in the lore or wait for Jack to make a mistake.

Dean: Yeah, well, the "mistakes" are what I'm worried about.

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e08

This episode

Quote

 

Dean: Any word from Cass?

Sam: Yeah. Uh, he says he's still looking for Jack, working a lead in Tucson.

https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e09

 

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Twice.

Scorpion and the Frog:

This episode

Oh, I thought you meant Sam had actually communicated with Cass not a Cass impostor.  I don't think it's that important who is doing the "communicating" right now, the point of the "communication" isn't who is doing it but to give a reason why Dean--and Sam--aren't worried they haven't heard from Cass. Nor do I think it implies that Dean hasn't also "communicated" with Cass in some way too.

[bethy]

I didn’t take Cas’s communicating with Sam as any slight toward Dean. They’re both friends and colleagues of Cas’s. I figured sometimes he calls Dean, sometimes he calls Sam. Dean’s “Any word from Cas?” just seemed like an assumption that if he hadn’t checked in with Dean he would with Sam. It didn’t sound to me like Dean was mad or hurt or anything other than curious as to whether they knew what was up with their friend.

[devlin123]

In regards to Dean pointing a gun at the girl I was wondering whether it came down to the fact that Dean was so disgusted with himself for by what he feels he did,  breaking his life long code of always looking after  his family, that he lost himself.

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I thought you meant Sam had actually communicated with Cass not a Cass impostor.  I don't think it's that important who is doing the "communicating" right now, the point of the "communication" isn't who is doing it but to give a reason why Dean--and Sam--aren't worried they haven't heard from Cass. Nor do I think it implies that Dean hasn't also "communicated" with Cass in some way too.

 

No of course I wasn't since we all know that Cas is captive by Asmodeus. That's why I used the term 'Casmodeus". I guess I should have kept using that that throughout to make it explicit that's who I meant each and every time I referred to whom Sam was speaking with because it obviously couldn't have been Cas. I guess I figured we all understood that's what we were talking about here. LOL

Which is why I was going on about Dean being the person who would ping on Casmodeus not being Cas. So yes it is plot contrivance to have Dean not speak with Casmodeus because Dean would be the person who would most likely figure it out.

I guess my lengthy post didn't make that clear enough. Sorry about that.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure that Sam and Dean ended up in "the bad place". It could be a completely different universe considering we saw a bunch of them...

I'm going to assume it was "the bad place", because Kaia's visions kept alternating between that place and Apocalypse World.  So Jack ended up in one and the boys in the other.  What is weird to me is that Kaia didn't end up in either place.  I know that it's plot driven, because she has to be the one to bring Jody into the search for Sam and Dean, but I wonder if we'll get any sort of explanation as to why she wasn't transported.

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, bethy said:

I didn’t take Cas’s communicating with Sam as any slight toward Dean. They’re both friends and colleagues of Cas’s. I figured sometimes he calls Dean, sometimes he calls Sam. Dean’s “Any word from Cas?” just seemed like an assumption that if he hadn’t checked in with Dean he would with Sam. It didn’t sound to me like Dean was mad or hurt or anything other than curious as to whether they knew what was up with their friend.

Cas is considered family now by both Dean and Sam, so I don't think there's any significance to who he calls, as long as he checks in.  And maybe Sam actually called Cas and not the other way around.  Dean asked if he'd heard from him, and Sam just said yes, that they'd touched base, so the comment didn't really address who'd called whom, necessarily.  

But mainly, as you pointed out, Catrox, it's plot driven.  They aren't ready yet for either Sam or Dean to be suspicious of Cas' absence or strange behavior.  That will come later.

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, bethy said:

I didn’t take Cas’s communicating with Sam as any slight toward Dean. They’re both friends and colleagues of Cas’s. I figured sometimes he calls Dean, sometimes he calls Sam. Dean’s “Any word from Cas?” just seemed like an assumption that if he hadn’t checked in with Dean he would with Sam. It didn’t sound to me like Dean was mad or hurt or anything other than curious as to whether they knew what was up with their friend.

? I never said it was a sleight. That's not what I'm talking about. I never said Dean was actually hurt or mad about it. I suggested that Dean might be mad or hurt because Cas took off again and told Dean to stand down and not go with him right after he got back but I don't really think that's the case.

I'm not saying that Dean is pissed about him calling Sam. Where is that even coming from?

The reality is that Dean and Cas talk way more than Cas and Sam. And Dean is the person that obsessed last season when Cas was missing. It was Dean constantly calling Cas and leaving messages that he wasn't returning. Dean gave Cas a dang mixtape, so yes there is a closeness between Dean and Cas that does not exist between Cas and Sam. NO I'm not talking about Destiel. And I'm not remotely implying that, I as a viewer, or Dean as the character, is pissed or hurt that Cas is talking to Sam LOL. That's not even close to what I'm saying.

I'm saying it's an obvious plot contrivance for the sake of the Asmodeus kidnapping Cas plot, that once Cas was being imitated by Asmodeus, that Dean would figure it out since he's figured out when Cas was sketchy or something was up. That's my whole point here. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by catrox14
Cas not Dean and Sam.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm going to assume it was "the bad place", because Kaia's visions kept alternating between that place and Apocalypse World.  So Jack ended up in one and the boys in the other.  What is weird to me is that Kaia didn't end up in either place.  I know that it's plot driven, because she has to be the one to bring Jody into the search for Sam and Dean, but I wonder if we'll get any sort of explanation as to why she wasn't transported.

I agree. I think maybe Jack had the power to send her back to the real world because he likes her and she was suffering so he thought he would keep her out of the both worlds and safe on Earth.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm going to assume it was "the bad place", because Kaia's visions kept alternating between that place and Apocalypse World.  So Jack ended up in one and the boys in the other.  What is weird to me is that Kaia didn't end up in either place.  I know that it's plot driven, because she has to be the one to bring Jody into the search for Sam and Dean, but I wonder if we'll get any sort of explanation as to why she wasn't transported.

I don't think Kaia had ever seen Apocalypse World until Jack honed her gifts. She said Derek could walk freely between worlds, but she only went to "the bad place." Jack skimmed over a few different worlds before he found Apocalypse World so I figured Dino World was one of the universes he skipped over, but it could be it's "the bad place," I don't know. I thought it might be a misdirect, though, to make us think it was the bad place until the girls go there only to find no Sam and Dean. I was just assuming Sam and Dean will have to get themselves out of wherever they are and it wouldn't be as simple as it appears.

I'm guessing Kaia wasn't transported simply because she was the one doing the transporting and she wasn't really in control. Or, it could be Jack? Maybe he was providing the power to transport and after he was transported she didn't have enough power to transport herself without him?

[catrox14]

I want to know why Jack didn't kill all the angels from the get go. Or was it a combo of Jack and Kaia that had the power to smite the angels? What happened there?

[MysteryGuest]

I think it was Jack who allowed her to see other worlds.  Normally when she dreamwalks, it's always the same place.  When Jack finally focused in on where he wanted her to go, she had a hard time keeping that world in her mind because she kept slipping back to where she normally goes.  At least that's how I interpreted it.  But since we already have multiple worlds to contend with this season, what's one more?

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I want to know why Jack didn't kill all the angels from the get go. Or was it a combo of Jack and Kaia that had the power to smite the angels? What happened there?

I assumed it was whatever energy was used to force open the portal to the other worlds.  Or maybe the concentration of power the angels were using to remove the warding proved to be too much for them.  The angel blade we saw was literally melted.  

[catrox14]

I watched this from the CW app on my TV and I still say wherever Dean and Sam are is more green than blue or at least blue/green LOL  So I stand by it maybe being Oz.

Maybe that's why Dabb tweeted.

[catrox14]

I think it is the Bad Place per Berens.

Quote

TVLINE | The Bad Place got name-checked a lot in this episode, and we saw a lot of disturbing imagery. Was that hooded figure also part of The Bad Place?
ROBERT BERENS | Yes. The world of Supernatural this season is very engaged in the apocalypse world of the archangel Michael. The Bad Place, [which is] the place that Sam and Dean are at the end of Episode 9, is the kind of proprietary nightmare world of Wayward and the spinoff [backdoor pilot] in Episode 10. We’ll be exploring that hooded figure, the giant monster we heard in the background of the last scene, as well as all those other critters

Edited December 9, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I watched this from the CW app on my TV and I still say wherever Dean and Sam are is more green than blue or at least blue/green LOL  So I stand by it maybe being Oz.

I also watched it from the CW app and it was blue on my screen. That dress was blue too, BTW. ;)

[catrox14]

I'm putting this in spoiler quotes in case someone perceives this as a spoiler. I don't think it is but just to be safe. Sorry if this was a spoiler for anyone. I didn't perceive it as such, but I understand if others have.

Berens answers the question of where the boys ended up.

TVLINE | Can you clarify: Did Kaia end up in our world, just in a different location?

 

Quote

Spoiler

TVLINE | Can you clarify: Did Kaia end up in our world, just in a different location?
BERENS | Yes. When Jack and the boys enlisted Kaia at the end, I think Jack was riding high off of some of his successes and his acceptance by the boys… It was a desperate move to get out of there, but he thought it could have a good outcome. But the truth is there’s a lot Sam and Dean and Jack don’t understand about Kaia’s relationship to this place, about The Bad Place, and that cosmic accident at the end of Episode 9 is a consequence of all that stuff they don’t know and understand. So in a way, Kaia was recoiling from this place that has this nightmarish grip on her and her dreamwalking, and she was slingshot back out of this event as it occurred. Sam and Dean were flung into The Bad Place, [while] she was being pulled back, and Jack was flung to apocalypse world.

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by catrox14
added a spoiler tag for safety.

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

I also watched it from the CW app and it was blue on my screen. That dress was blue too, BTW. ;)

So the how do you explain the green everywhere else. The green grass, the green trees. If it was a blue world why are the only blue things the tint on Dean and Sam's faces? LOL I have a TV that has great color so don't think it's my TV nor more eyes. I'm not color blind. Yes I know you are a photographer have that arty eye I just think calling it the Blue World is not accurate. To me a Blue world would be like Avatar LOL. 

I know it's what the show is calling it and they are calling it the Bad Place. Oz was a pretty bad place for Charlie. I"m just sayin' We can agree to disagree though 

[BoxManLocke]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Is it wrong that I'm now kinda hoping Wayward Sisters doesn't get picked up? I mean, it seems to reason Berens would go to that show, and I would dearly miss him from this show.

I see what you mean.

I think WS is a cool idea and I'd want it to succeed, but Berens is the most talented writer on the show right now, just like last season in my opinion. He is important.

SPN needs great writers to counter BuckLeming (who are next in line to become showrunners should Dabb step off *shudder*). I think Perez, Yockey and Glynn are good to okay, but they're still green and I doubt they have much power in the writers room.

Edited December 9, 2017 by BoxManLocke

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So the how do you explain the green everywhere else. The green grass, the green trees. If it was a blue world why are the only blue things the tint on Dean and Sam's faces? LOL I have a TV that has great color so don't think it's my TV nor more eyes. I'm not color blind. Yes I know you are a photographer have that arty eye I just think calling it the Blue World is not accurate. To me a Blue world would be like Avatar LOL. 

It was all blue tinted on my screen not just Sam and Dean's faces. I'm not suggesting you're color blind or that my color vision is any better than anyone else's nor am I calling it Blue World, I'm just saying that I also watched it on the CW app and everything looked blue tinted and not green tinted to me

[Wayward Son]

5 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

This is probably veering off into other thread territory, but I don't disagree that this is what we see from them sometimes.  I just don't think we're supposed to see them as anything but flawed heroes.  The show is about two brothers who will do anything to save each other, while at the same time trying to save as many people and "kill as many son's of bitches" as possible.  There's been a hell of a lot of collateral damage along the way, but it's almost as if we're not really supposed to notice that.  Even God allows thousands of people to be wiped off the face of the earth and we're just supposed to move on from that.  The problem is and always will be the writing.  

Oh I agree with you that the show wants us to view them as flawed heroes. They've even had God himself tell us that they're heroes. However, for me it has been a simple case of tell vs show. They've been telling us the Winchester's are heroes. However, they've been showing them as anti-heroes to borderline villains. They've shown us ruthless men who are willing to put the lives of other people in danger, people who show little sympathy for a teenage boy at the end of his tether after they plucked him from his ordinary live and told him to get on with his job, they've shown us men willing to quite literally put the world in danger and sacrifice thousands of lifes in order to save one another. They've shown us men who hold little interest in the self-autonomy of others when it goes against their wishes, as highlighted by one of them shoving a gun in the face of a frightened teenager this week. IMO when I compare the Winchesters to legit fictional heroes they fall well short of that standard. At this point in the show the world would be a much happier and smoothly operating place if Sam, Dean and Castiel were shoved into a pocket dimension where they couldn't interact with anything else. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

If what we are getting for Dean and Sam here is what Berens offers I'd prefer he leave. 

Tell me about it. I used to like his episodes but not for years. These days, he makes me think "into the garbage chute with you." I`d be overjoyed if his ass left for Wayward if it got picked up. I dread him way more than Bucklemming at this point. Even dog-fucking allusions are better than shoving guns in civilians` faces like a thrift-story villain.

As for him answering questions, it was those kind of exit interviews after a "big" episode airs that always give out some spoilers. However, I never had any doubt that the brothers landed in the "bad place" Kaia spoke of. The episode used all the markers for it and none of the question marks against it. The scene with Jack zipping through multiple worlds reminded me of Professor X in First Class when he searched for mutants the first time, there were some "Easter Egg" mutants that would be introduced later on in there, like Jean and Cyclops. I felt the same way here, they wanted to establish their own "multiverse" for future use but this specific event was about the apocalypse world where Jack went and "the bad place" where the brothers went. They even provided "hooded, creeping figure" in it to show that something human-(esque) lives there.

Quote

 IMO when I compare the Winchesters to legit fictional heroes they fall well short of that standard. 

The Flash TV show kinda has exact the same problem, though, so the Winchesters aren`t completely alone. Not even on the CW.  :)  

Edited December 9, 2017 by Aeryn13

[bethy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

? I never said it was a sleight. That's not what I'm talking about. I never said Dean was actually hurt or mad about it. I suggested that Dean might be mad or hurt because Cas took off again and told Dean to stand down and not go with him right after he got back but I don't really think that's the case.

I'm not saying that Dean is pissed about him calling Sam. Where is that even coming from?

The reality is that Dean and Cas talk way more than Cas and Sam. And Dean is the person that obsessed last season when Cas was missing. It was Dean constantly calling Cas and leaving messages that he wasn't returning. Dean gave Cas a dang mixtape, so yes there is a closeness between Dean and Cas that does not exist between Cas and Sam. NO I'm not talking about Destiel. And I'm not remotely implying that, I as a viewer, or Dean as the character, is pissed or hurt that Cas is talking to Sam LOL. That's not even close to what I'm saying.

I'm saying it's an obvious plot contrivance for the sake of the Asmodeus kidnapping Cas plot, that once Cas was being imitated by Asmodeus, that Dean would figure it out since he's figured out when Cas was sketchy or something was up. That's my whole point here. 

Sorry. I wasn't trying to respond to specific things that you said, just trying to say generally that I didn't see that scene the same way you did. Your suggestion that Dean might be mad or hurt was what stuck with me. I don't feel like it's an obvious plot contrivance - it wasn't for me at least. It seemed like a natural exchange between two people in regards to another person who wasn't there. That was my point.