S01.E10: Sacrifice

[possibilities]

7 hours ago, Manda317 said:

I wonder if he may be scared that he doesn't have a job anymore due to his breakdown, and that is what is causing him to try to run out of town

I definitely thought he'd think that. Of course, an argument could be made (and there were witnesses present) that his behavior was reasonable self-defense, as he was being physically manhandled and emotionally berated by Glassman, which was an abuse of power and probably legally actionable not only as assault (it was comparable to what Jarad did), but also an ADA violation because Glassman was blatantly discriminating against Shaun on the basis of his diagnosis. But this hospital doesn't seem to have heard of the ADA, based on its treatment of Shaun during the pilot, and so it would stand to reason that Shaun hasn't heard of it either. Maybe, however, someone else will think of it and Shaun will return with a lawyer in tow.

I wonder if Schiff is actually leaving the show. If they fired Kalu, they should fire Glassman. There was a rumor that Schiff is one of the many people accused of sexual harrassment, and I wonder if that's behind this new direction for his character-- a way to explain it if they decide the actor is no longer on the team. I don't know how serious the claims against him are, so I don't know how serious the possibility of him being fired should be taken.

There was also that deal where if Shaun didn't work out, Glassman promised to resign. The character is all over the map with his behavior and his motivations. Is he genuinely suddenly not believing in Shaun despite his attending saying his work is fine? Is he freaking out about his daughter? His own health? His job security? Is he just an abusive jerk? Has he always been one, but he was all Shaun had so he put up with it all these years, and now finally has the confidence and resources not to take it anymore? Is it a plot twist because the actor's continuation on the show is in question?

[Ohmo]

14 hours ago, possibilities said:

I wonder if Schiff is actually leaving the show.

Back near the beginning of the season, Glassman had a line about not always being there to help Jessica.  There's all of that between Glassman and Andrews about being president, but I'm now wondering if Glassman is terminally ill and not telling anyone.  That would explain the comment to Jessica and why Glassman's flipping out so much about Shaun---because Glassman knows he's dying.  Otherwise, I'm with other posters who don't understand why Glassman is at Shaun so much.  Shaun was doing fine until Glassman started up with the issue of the therapist/life coach and would not drop it.

Shaun has a full-time job, and Melendez said his work is fine.  Normally, his hygiene is fine.  It just wasn't because he was hiding because of Glassman.  It also irks me that Glassman seems to feel he's in charge of Shaun's happiness.  Shaun seems happy and content with himself.  That's why I think Glassman is dying and trying to "take care" of Shaun while he's able.

I hope Kalu's firing is temporary.  I like him. 

I wouldn't have said this earlier in the season, but I feel sorry for Melendez.  I like him with Jessica, but I also know that he wants children.

[Ohmo]

On 12/5/2017 at 7:12 AM, vibeology said:

But more than that, Shaun strikes me as someone who would benefit from traditional therapy. He had a horrible home life, saw his brother die, has been very isolated since he was a young teen. Anyone in that situation probably should try therapy at some point to see if it could be helpful.

I don't think the issue was about therapy per se, but more about Shaun being in control and being allowed to make a choice.  I don't have autism, but I do have a physical disability that I've had since birth.  Like Shaun, there have been times in my life where people feel the need to try and make a choice for me.  There's a difference between helping someone and directing someone,  I can empathize with Shaun kind of wigging out due to frustration.  He tried to say no rather calmly to Glassman, who was not hearing it.   People sometimes act as though when you say no, you can't possibly have considered all the possibilities.  Shaun doesn't want therapy now.  Doesn't mean he won't want it later in life, but he should be allowed to not choose it now.  He's capable and functional.  He has a full-time job in a very complex profession.  He's allowed to say no and mean it.  If that no turns out to be a mistake, so be it.  Happens to people without disabilities all the time, and they're allowed to figure it out.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Ohmo

[aemom]

I look at Shaun and that episode was heartbreaking to me because I believe that if he had been better dealt with from the time he was very young, that he would be in better shape now.

He had an abusive father and it appears that his mother was somewhat clueless about what to do with him. Had he been gradually exposed to different situations as a child and been helped a lot in dealing with difficult situations,  I think he would be better adjusted.

Glassman is right, give the therapist a shot.  Shaun does need help. EVERYBODY needs help at times in their lives. And the big thing with autistic people is they can be so capable and even brilliant in some situations, and hopeless in situations that an outsider would think was something that should be easy to grasp and do. Life skills, especially social ones, are huge hurdles for them. And because of Shaun's upbringing, dealing with a therapist is huge hurdle, instead of something new to try with help and support.

[vibeology]

11 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I don't think the issue was about therapy per se, but more about Shaun being in control and being allowed to make a choice.  I don't have autism, but I do have a physical disability that I've had since birth.  Like Shaun, there have been times in my life where people feel the need to try and make a choice for me.  There's a difference between helping someone and directing someone,  I can empathize with Shaun kind of wigging out due to frustration.  He tried to say no rather calmly to Glassman, who was not hearing it.   People sometimes act as though when you say no, you can't possibly have considered all the possibilities.  Shaun doesn't want therapy now.  Doesn't mean he won't want it later in life, but he should be allowed to not choose it now.  He's capable and functional.  He has a full-time job in a very complex profession.  He's allowed to say no and mean it.  If that no turns out to be a mistake, so be it.  Happens to people without disabilities all the time, and they're allowed to figure it out.

I agree that it should be Shaun's choice and that Glassman was way out of line pushing over and over again. That being said, I think Shaun has issues regarding his autism that come from his childhood. I get the sense he feels shame/guilt that his autism is bad and led to his brother dying. And I think because of this he actively tries to not deal with his autism and that has led to him not dealing with any of his issues. The therapist that Glassman got was more a life skills therapist if I understood correctly. I think Shaun actually needs a psychiatrist or psychologist or counselor (its hard to say what would be the right fit for him at this point) to talk to the way anyone with a traumatic past would. And I do think he's going to need that suggested to him because the issue he needs to work out is the same issue that will block him from getting there on his own. That being said, suggest isn't grab or send someone to his home day after day or refuse to accept his no.

[Ohmo]

6 hours ago, AEMom said:

I look at Shaun and that episode was heartbreaking to me because I believe that if he had been better dealt with from the time he was very young, that he would be in better shape now.

He had an abusive father and it appears that his mother was somewhat clueless about what to do with him. Had he been gradually exposed to different situations as a child and been helped a lot in dealing with difficult situations,  I think he would be better adjusted.

Glassman is right, give the therapist a shot.  Shaun does need help. EVERYBODY needs help at times in their lives. And the big thing with autistic people is they can be so capable and even brilliant in some situations, and hopeless in situations that an outsider would think was something that should be easy to grasp and do. Life skills, especially social ones, are huge hurdles for them. And because of Shaun's upbringing, dealing with a therapist is huge hurdle, instead of something new to try with help and support.

 

48 minutes ago, vibeology said:

I agree that it should be Shaun's choice and that Glassman was way out of line pushing over and over again. That being said, I think Shaun has issues regarding his autism that come from his childhood. I get the sense he feels shame/guilt that his autism is bad and led to his brother dying. And I think because of this he actively tries to not deal with his autism and that has led to him not dealing with any of his issues. The therapist that Glassman got was more a life skills therapist if I understood correctly. I think Shaun actually needs a psychiatrist or psychologist or counselor (its hard to say what would be the right fit for him at this point) to talk to the way anyone with a traumatic past would. And I do think he's going to need that suggested to him because the issue he needs to work out is the same issue that will block him from getting there on his own. That being said, suggest isn't grab or send someone to his home day after day or refuse to accept his no.

See, I don't agree that Shaun needs help right now.  I think it's more of a case that people want Shaun to get help right now for their own reasons, not his.

Shaun has a job and is paid a salary.  He can live on his own.  His work is not suffering, as Melendez just pointed out,  His hygiene is fine, except when Glassman has been stressing him out.  The show keeps mentioning money but what hasn't been mentioned is that Shaun has missed paying things like credit card payments or rent.  That hasn't been brought up, so I'm going to assume that Shaun is fine on that score.  Therefore, it's coming across as Glassman being exceptionally nosy for no reason.  Shaun has said that he doesn't want love.  If he doesn't want love, now or later, fine.

The thing about Shaun feeling guilt or shame about autism.  Maybe, sure, but Shawn has never asked for therapy or even been inquisitive about therapy.  And I want to smack Glassman every time that he says that Shaun could have a happier life.  What Glassman fails to understand is that Shaun seems to be happy with his life right now.  Doesn't he have the right to decide what makes him happy, as long as he's not putting himself in harm's way?  Nothing suggests that was the case until Glassman started pestering him.  Shaun was functioning fine.  Maybe not in the way that someone else would consider fine, but also in no way that would suggest that he requires immediate intervention of some kind.  As to the life skills that everyone keeps mentioning, Shaun is receptive to learning about those.  He learned about flirting because he was able to do that on his terms.  Claire didn't say "OK Shaun, let's learn about flirting this way."

If Shaun were late or not sleeping or consistently arriving for work dirty or not cleaning his apartment or not interacting with his team members or blowing his paycheck, then yes, I'd agree that Shaun needs help.  Right now, though, it's everyone wants Shaun to get help that they think he needs.

[Ohmo]

Another way to look at this.

Jessica also has a good job and makes good money. Neil now knows that she doesn't want kids.  Jessica does not seem to be in any imminent danger or a threat to herself.

If Neil suddenly went, "Oh my God, you've decided you don't want kids.   You can't possibly be happy.  You must go into therapy right now because I've decided that you must be happier."  How would that go over?

The same is happening with Shaun.  Shaun has autism, and he will need help in his life, but having autism does not mean people should be constantly thinking that he needs help or that his life is somehow lesser without the constant opinions of others.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Ohmo

[Guest]

I think it would have been more understandable in the story if Glassman had made limited therapy a condition of employment due to the traumatic grocery store incident - Shaun caused a shooting and then had to deal with the aftermath.  (I would say I don't know if this is legal/realistic, but it was done on Grey's Anatomy, so clearly, it's real life....)  Glassman couldn't and shouldn't demand ongoing therapy without it being to address a specific issue.  If I remember correctly, that's when he started pushing for therapy anyway, so it would have made sense to frame it that way. Also, it would have been more justifiable for it to be a condition of employment due to his actions casting the hospital in a bad light (since he was blamed by one of the victims for the shooting).

[Ohmo]

10 minutes ago, deaja said:

I think it would have been more understandable in the story if Glassman had made limited therapy a condition of employment due to the traumatic grocery store incident - Shaun caused a shooting and then had to deal with the aftermath.  (I would say I don't know if this is legal/realistic, but it was done on Grey's Anatomy, so clearly, it's real life....)  Glassman couldn't and shouldn't demand ongoing therapy without it being to address a specific issue.  If I remember correctly, that's when he started pushing for therapy anyway, so it would have made sense to frame it that way. Also, it would have been more justifiable for it to be a condition of employment due to his actions casting the hospital in a bad light (since he was blamed by one of the victims for the shooting).

Agreed.  Glassman made an appointment for Claire after that patient died.  If Jared comes back, mandatory therapy would likely be part of the deal if he's reinstated.  Those are instances of requirements based on actions that Claire and Jared did, not conditions they had.  The one caveat I'd have would be that Shaun's therapy should have a reasonable termination date equivalent to what another doctor might face for similar behavior.  Shaun should not be kept in therapy indefinitely because of his autism.

[Guest]

That's what I meant by "limited therapy" @Ohmo, but I should have been more clear.  I meant a requirement like "1 month of therapy" or "5 sessions" or something like that where there is a clear requirement of what needs to be done and not a vague "til I say so" thing.

[chocolatine]

17 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Agreed.  Glassman made an appointment for Claire after that patient died.  If Jared comes back, mandatory therapy would likely be part of the deal if he's reinstated.  Those are instances of requirements based on actions that Claire and Jared did, not conditions they had.  The one caveat I'd have would be that Shaun's therapy should have a reasonable termination date equivalent to what another doctor might face for similar behavior.  Shaun should not be kept in therapy indefinitely because of his autism.

And Shaun may have been a lot more amenable to therapy if it was part of the protocol for *every* surgeon who'd experienced trauma.

[Manda317]

On 12/8/2017 at 1:37 PM, deaja said:

I think it would have been more understandable in the story if Glassman had made limited therapy a condition of employment due to the traumatic grocery store incident - Shaun caused a shooting and then had to deal with the aftermath.  (I would say I don't know if this is legal/realistic, but it was done on Grey's Anatomy, so clearly, it's real life....)  Glassman couldn't and shouldn't demand ongoing therapy without it being to address a specific issue.  If I remember correctly, that's when he started pushing for therapy anyway, so it would have made sense to frame it that way. Also, it would have been more justifiable for it to be a condition of employment due to his actions casting the hospital in a bad light (since he was blamed by one of the victims for the shooting).

I think the therapist was mentioned before the shooting incident, but Glassman became more forceful about it afterwards. I'm actually curious if I was the only person who thought people were being harsh with Shaun about that. You do not have to be autistic to freeze or panic in a situation like that. Although he definitely exhibited some symptoms, I thought it was out of line for anyone other than the distraught guy to put any blame on him. The only person to blame in a situation like that is the shooter. I can understand being someone who cares about Shaun and being terrified at the thought of Shaun not being able to handle something like that and getting hurt, but it seems like Glassman blamed him. A doctor should know that not everyone can handle a gun pointed at them when they have no disorders, and freezing up is a common response to trauma and fear.

[Annber03]

Fully agreed on the unfairness of blaming Shaun. I'm not autistic, but yeah, you'd better believe I would absolutely act similarly to Shaun if I'd been in that situation. 

[ForReal]

On 12/7/2017 at 8:43 PM, Ohmo said:

Back near the beginning of the season, Glassman had a line about not always being there to help Jessica...I'm now wondering if Glassman is terminally ill and not telling anyone.  That would explain...why Glassman's flipping out so much about Shaun---because Glassman knows he's dying.  Otherwise, I'm with other posters who don't understand why Glassman is at Shaun so much.  Shaun was doing fine until Glassman started up with the issue of the therapist/life coach and would not drop it.

Shaun has a full-time job, and Melendez said his work is fine.  Normally, his hygiene is fine.  It just wasn't because he was hiding because of Glassman.  It also irks me that Glassman seems to feel he's in charge of Shaun's happiness.  Shaun seems happy and content with himself.  That's why I think Glassman is dying and trying to "take care" of Shaun while he's able.

I think this is why Glassman is pushing the therapy -- for reasons of his own that have yet to be revealed.

[possibilities]

I think Glass man should get therapy himself. He's clearly projecting his crap onto Shaun at this point, and trying to pass it off as caring when it's really his own trauma issues flaring up.

[Granimal]

Warning: Still can't keep the character's names straight.

So two- potentially- three, four? cases of people trying to live life on their own terms, and outsiders- well meaning or not- interfering.

I actually don't think that Mendoza(?) was sticking up for his fiance at all. I think he was just angry and said what was on his mind, which opened things up for... his fiance (can't remember her name) to say her peace. This was telegraphed in an earlier episode. Wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't want kids at all or has a medical condition. She did mention adoption. Mendoza made it pretty clear that he had no interest in that.

So that leaves us with Claire. Claire didn't want to report, and I thought the storyline realisticly spelled out the reasons why. For her boyfriend to take things into his own hands against her wishes. Argh. Way to force Claire's hand to save poor boyfriend's job. What generations of women would've wanted in this situation is neither here nor there, as boyfriend is not dating some hymogenous pool of "women", he's dating Claire- who is an individual. If she didn't want him to interfere, she didn't want to interfere. I believe she communicated that quite clearly. (On another note, the Claire situation really reminded me of the Gwenyth Platrow/ Brad Pitt/ Weinstein story.)

Sean- Not much to say, as I'm not that engaged with the character, so I missed the little things. Agreed that he was in a good place and shouldn't have therapy forced on him. It's clear that he has unresolved issues over his brother, but forcing someone into therapy- unless they're a harm to themself or others- is never a good idea. The scuffle at the end was so shocking that I missed who slapped who. (Yes, I probably shouldn't be commenting.)  

And then possibly the cancer patient. I like the actor on The Good Place, and I loved his character here. Story was a little murky to me. Wasn't quite sure what to get out of it, besides- live life on your own terms. (?) Go out on top? I missed the message, but I enjoyed semi- watching it!

So we have three- possibly four cases of an "unwanted rescuer". I happen to be in the boat of people that didn't see Mendoza as sticking up for his fiancee. I'm sure he has some personal history that will put the comment into context, but it seemed more like a pissing match between the two men. The Claire situation could also be reduced to a pissing match. It wasn't as if her (ex? boyfriend?) was sticking up for someone he had no history with. Perhaps he was angry someone hit on (the woman he wants to be with.) Maybe he's angry at himself for not believing Claire earlier, and taking that out on Dr. Creepy.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Granimal

[Former Nun]

I'm also not so sure of their names so I asked IMDB.   Jessica Preston, the hospital attorney   Neil Melendez, her petite fiance-surgeon.    WHY is she allowed to playfully whack him on the butt) as she leaves the room.  They're at work.  They're high-level employees.   I truly thought something HR thing would come of that, but nope...just acceptable horseplay if it's woman on man, I guess. 

[possibilities]

She's his fiancee, though. I'm sure HR knows all about their relationship.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Former Nun said:

 Neil Melendez, her petite fiance-surgeon.

LOL, such a spot-on description! Wouldn’t it be great if she went around introducing him that way? He deserves it for his patronizing “Jessica can be a great mother *and* a great lawyer” comment.

[Former Nun]

47 minutes ago, possibilities said:

She's his fiancee, though. I'm sure HR knows all about their relationship.

Relationships don't change employee guidelines.  It's still inappropriate in the workplace, especially for those who need to provide an example to hospital employees and patients.   It was poor writing. 

[Neurochick]

On December 4, 2017 at 11:54 PM, Annber03 said:

It was really interesting to see Jared getting so physical towards that guy, considering earlier in the episode he so smoothly diffused that tense moment between Shaun and Melendez when they were arguing in the hallway. Your mention of his bad life choices and whatnot has me feeling like that aggressive side of him is part of his past in a way, and it'd be an interesting aspect to explore further, especially in the context of this situation. 

I didn't get why Jared got fired.  Was there a camera that caught what happened?  If not, then why believe the douchebag?

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I didn't get why Jared got fired.  Was there a camera that caught what happened?  If not, then why believe the douchebag?

Because Claire confirmed to Andrews that Jared assaulted the douchebag, and my understanding was that Jared himself didn't deny it.

[Neurochick]

2 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Because Claire confirmed to Andrews that Jared assaulted the douchebag, and my understanding was that Jared himself didn't deny it.

But Claire didn't know that Jared "assaulted" douchebag until Andrews mentioned it, did she?  It was after she spoke to Andrews that Claire spoke to Jared.  So douchebag went crying to Andrews that mean old Jared pushed him against the lockers.  

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

But Claire didn't know that Jared "assaulted" douchebag until Andrews mentioned it, did she?  It was after she spoke to Andrews that Claire spoke to Jared.  So douchebag went crying to Andrews that mean old Jared pushed him against the lockers.  

Jared told Claire before she was called into Andrews's office.

[RHJunkie]

On 12/7/2017 at 9:04 AM, possibilities said:

There was also that deal where if Shaun didn't work out, Glassman promised to resign. The character is all over the map with his behavior and his motivations. Is he genuinely suddenly not believing in Shaun despite his attending saying his work is fine? Is he freaking out about his daughter? His own health? His job security? Is he just an abusive jerk? Has he always been one, but he was all Shaun had so he put up with it all these years, and now finally has the confidence and resources not to take it anymore? Is it a plot twist because the actor's continuation on the show is in question?

There could be a plot twist that better explains it but I assumed that with the timing of his behaviour it had to do with his conversation with Jessica where she basically called him Shaun's enabler. The direction I see this going right now is that Glassman is just too close to Shaun to let allow him to struggle and learn on his own. Glassman is acknowledging that he coddles Shaun too much but his solution seems to be have someone else take his place which defeats the purpose of Jessica's advice. After Shaun smacked him, the look of shock on Glassman's face makes me wonder if it was due to being hit or if it was a moment of realization of how his behaviour antagonized Shaun to that point. 

[ForReal]

It's hard to know what the deal is without knowing how Shaun coped during med school. Was Glassman helping him through that? Has he been a constant support and codependent with a need to be needed? I don't know, but I didn't get the feeling that Shaun has been nearby the past several years. I don't think that is information that has been presented yet, although I may be wrong on that.

[Driad]

36 minutes ago, ForReal said:

It's hard to know what the deal is without knowing how Shaun coped during med school.

Yes, I wonder why they didn't start the show when he entered med school.

[jhlipton]

8 hours ago, SweetTooth said:

This episode should have been called "Consent," because it involved people who tried to pressure other people into doing something they didn't want to do.

+1000 to this, and to your whole comment.