S07.E08: Pretty in Blue

[Wayward Son]

On 18/11/2017 at 4:05 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Unless he's one hell of an actor, Rumple truly seems to be Weaver and has been effected by this curse.

He is definitely a wake. There is a scene of him holding the Dark zones dagger before he is interrupted by WHook.

[AnotherCastle]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I am astounded at how much the actress is unsuitable for the role. Did A&E really see Alt!Cinders as 10 years older than Henry but even more immature than him? Did they okay this casting? I can’t believe the same casting team as before chose her. She must have had one hell of an audition tape. The only other time the casting on this Show has been off was choosing MRJ for adult Baelfire. And A&E made the choice to cast him (which worked for how they’d originally conceived of the Neal character, but not as adult Bealfire or the later St.Neal retcon). 

 

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

It makes me wonder if she's an A&E buddy and this didn't come through their usual casting wizards. Or else they didn't properly describe the role to the casting wizards.

I don't know if this really answers your questions, but the most we heard about Cinderella's casting came from DR herself:

Quote

Had you watched the show before you were cast or watch any of it since then?
Yeah, I did a movie with Jamie Chung, who played Mulan on the show a few seasons back, and I also worked with like Parker [Croft] who played one of the Lost Boys with Peter Pan in season 3 of the story, so I had watched some episodes. I didn’t know the extent of what the show was really about, because I didn’t watch it religiously; the tone of the show I got. And they called me to come in and test. Lucky for me, because I was on vacation with my family, and one of them, who’s from Mexico, he’s obsessed with the show — that’s another thing, the show is such a universal show. He’s from Mexico and was obsessed with Once Upon a Time. He was like, “Oh my God, you get to go in and test for Once Upon a Time?!” and it just became such a huge thing for the entire family right before I went to test. And so we started watching the pilot episode. They’re still binge-watching it. Season 6 just came out on Netflix, so they’re still just binge-watching it to make sure that they catch up.

Quote

I just want to go back to what you asked about my first day. It was just an emotional day for me, period, because when I went to the test for the role, I didn’t know what I was auditioning for. They didn’t tell me that it was Cinderella. They didn’t tell me it was the main character. They basically said, “They want you to come in and test and they want you to have chemistry with this guy, Henry.” So when I told my family, “Look at this guy Henry,” one of my family member’s brother said, “Oh, I watch the show. That’s Henry, that’s the little kid.” He’s the one that told me about the kid. So we watched the pilot episode of the show and watched the second episode, and the next morning, I was on a plane to go audition. All I know is that they want me to have chemistry with this guy. As an actress, I’m like, “Okay, I can have chemistry with a freaking piece of bread. I got this.”

So I walked in and I remember I was moving, all my stuff was in storage, so all I had was vacation clothes. I had a T-shirt and a skirt or a bikini and I walked in there and just said my lines. They felt my vibe. I ended up flying back the next morning to get to Hawaii. I have a videotape of this because my husband, before I left, was taping me. He was like, “Oh, you’re about to go and test for this big show, Once Upon a Time,” and I was nervous getting on the plane. When I landed the next morning in Hawaii, I got a call from my manager and that’s when I found out that I had not only gotten the job, but that I was playing Cinderella.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/09/29/once-upon-a-time-dania-ramirez-cinderella-season-7/

[Mabinogia]

4 minutes ago, AnotherCastle said:

“Okay, I can have chemistry with a freaking piece of bread. I got this.”

She must have more chemistry with that piece of bread than she does Henry.

[KingOfHearts]

No offense to Dania, but I think it's kind of funny that they told her she needed to have chemistry with Henry, yet we've seen none at all. It seems like she's not even intending to play it that way. Other than the kiss in this episode, she always seems put off by him. 

[Rumsy4]

8 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

13 minutes ago, AnotherCastle said:

“Okay, I can have chemistry with a freaking piece of bread. I got this.”

She must have more chemistry with that piece of bread than she does Henry.

See--that's the problem. She screen-tested with a piece of bread. She should have at least made sure it was garlic bread and not a dinner roll.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

12 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

She must have more chemistry with that piece of bread than she does Henry.

Or maybe she got mixed up and had the chemistry of a piece of bread.

Though I think part of the problem is Henry -- the character, not so much the actor, because all actors who've played him have had a similar problem post-season one. I remember when we were excited during the body swap to see how Robbie Kay played the role, and then were disappointed in how flat he was. I think that's just Henry, and it's a common problem with self-insert characters. The writers are fascinated with themselves, so they don't think they need to do anything to make the character fascinating, and they know the character too well, so they get him and don't think about fleshing him out to anyone else. Season one Henry was a three-dimensional character with a strong goal and viewpoint and conflicts. After that, there's been no "there" there. He's whatever they want or need him to be. He can set out to destroy magic because it makes people do terrible things and everything would be better without it, and within weeks (story time) he's willing to give up his heart to save magic. He spent the first season begging Emma to believe and break the curse and be his mother so he could get away from Regina, then months later he's telling Regina he wishes he never brought Emma to Storybrooke, and then he's having a True Love's Kiss with Regina. Adult Henry is no better. He doesn't have any kind of goal. There's nothing about him that's interesting. He's not even erring on the side of obnoxious, like Murderella. You could replace him with a potted plant in most scenes without changing anything at all. In this episode, we learned that he's apparently been in Cinderella's world for some time, if he has a "first friend" he met in that world and has had time to teach his friend to act out scenes from The Empire Strikes Back with him. But somehow the guy who knows fairy tales inside and out didn't know he was in a world with a Cinderella story playing out, in spite of the huge royal ball, and the guy who wants to be the kind of hero who gets written into storybooks didn't know that there was an evil king and his evil sidekick who has the same name as the stepmother of the Cinderella he knew (and the Disney Cinderella, including the live action that came out before he left Storybrooke) and that there was a resistance movement against them. What has he been doing in this world, staging one-man stage versions of Star Wars?

In general, I think it's not so much that other characters/actors have chemistry with Henry. It's that they have chemistry in his presence. The problem with Murderella is that she doesn't really have chemistry in his presence, or her chemistry is negative. She generally acts like she's barely tolerating Henry, and not even in that love/hate romantic comedy type way where they do sexy banter. She acts the way I do when someone is trying to impress me and I'm not amused, but I'm also trying not to be rude and I'm hoping they'll give up and go away.

Back to Jacinda's lack of ambition/trying and/or being mired in poverty -- I can see where she'd have a case of learned helplessness if nothing worked out for her, and if the curse made her be so unambitious that she doesn't seem to think of even looking for a waitressing job that would pay tips, in spite of having a friend who runs a bar, until the job is handed to her on a silver platter without her even having to ask or apply. But that's not a very attractive character trait, so then why would cursed Roni be pushing Henry toward someone who isn't trying to do anything with her life and can barely be bothered to stir herself to get custody of her daughter back? I guess Henry's enough of a slacker that he might not be turned off by her sad sack attitude, but generally people don't urge their friends to go after someone like that. Non-cursed Regina who's trying to break them up because of the curse seems more realistic than cursed Roni because the things she's saying are true.

[Mabinogia]

It blows my mind that she was hired based on her chemistry with Henry. The fuck?

I just assumed they wanted a Latina actress and she was the only one willing and/or available. Or she was the cheapest since this season feels like it has half the budget of the past.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Mabinogia

[Camera One]

Quote

So I walked in and I remember I was moving, all my stuff was in storage, so all I had was vacation clothes. I had a T-shirt and a skirt or a bikini and I walked in there and just said my lines. 

I don't mean to insult the actress either, since I actually liked her performance on "Heroes" even though most people didn't.  But this is A&E we're talking about, and maybe they thought she looked good with Henry and that's how they gauge chemistry?  

The problem could also be that we got such an unflattering first impression of the character, with her leading Henry on, punching him and stealing his motorcycle.  They would have needed over-the-top chemistry to overcome that intro.  Meanwhile, the Hyperion Heights character was late for work and mopey.  

I did find the story of the actress finding out that the person she needed to have chemistry with was Henry the little kid sort of funny.  

7 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

In general, I think it's not so much that other characters/actors have chemistry with Henry. It's that they have chemistry in his presence. The problem with Murderella is that she doesn't really have chemistry in his presence, or her chemistry is negative. She generally acts like she's barely tolerating Henry, and not even in that love/hate romantic comedy type way where they do sexy banter. She acts the way I do when someone is trying to impress me and I'm not amused, but I'm also trying not to be rude and I'm hoping they'll give up and go away.

Agreed.  Henry is just sort of there.  I was surprised he didn't even have much chemistry with Whook, but maybe that's because there wasn't anything to build chemistry on.  I wouldn't call the rapport with Roni "chemistry" either... it just gives me an icky feeling.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

30 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Agreed.  Henry is just sort of there.  I was surprised he didn't even have much chemistry with Whook, but maybe that's because there wasn't anything to build chemistry on.  I wouldn't call the rapport with Roni "chemistry" either... it just gives me an icky feeling.

Yeah. Adult Henry doesn't have positive chemistry with any of the charatcers (and I agree about the weird vibe with Roni). However, he and Murderella have negative chemistry. It's like a black hole that sucks all joy out of a scene when it's just the two of them.

[Camera One]

I found this episode slightly better for Henry/Cinderella.  

Something else though that makes Cinderella less likeable is her tendency to keep secrets about practically everything.  Like in this episode, she totally didn't tell Henry her true reasons for going to Wonderland.  If they're trying to build a viable couple, they need to begin to confide in each other, but this Cinderella is all WALLS.  Oh no, that word again.  Yikes!!!!!!!

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Adult Henry doesn't have positive chemistry with any of the charatcers (and I agree about the weird vibe with Roni)

Except maybe for Jack/Nick, who has only interacted with him in two scenes so far.

Quote

I found this episode slightly better for Henry/Cinderella.  

Probably because they actually did somewhat romantic things. Going on a life-threatening mission to find the other, kissing passionately, etc. Of course that's all pretty generic and could work for any couple, but up until now it's been motorcycle thievery and cringey boom-boxing.

Did Henry not!google how to be a mechanic? 

Edited November 22, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Did Henry not!google how to be a mechanic? 

Uber drivers can also build their own food trucks from scratch, I've heard.

[Shanna Marie]

On 11/21/2017 at 7:25 PM, Camera One said:

I was surprised he didn't even have much chemistry with Whook, but maybe that's because there wasn't anything to build chemistry on. 

That's a big issue with Whook and everyone, and it spills over into Rogers. The interactions between Rogers and Henry in the first episode were somewhat affecting because we thought he was real Hook and was Henry's stepfather. It was interesting seeing Rogers help Henry when neither of them knew about their relationship. Now that we know Rogers is Wish Hook, there's no background there. They haven't bothered to establish what kind of relationship Whook has with the others, and it's a weird situation that we should see -- that was one of the things I was most intrigued about after "A Pirate's Life" that made me more interested in watching going forward. Here was a guy who was physically identical to the Hook Regina and Henry knew, but he's an entirely different person for them, since he never had any relationship with the Henry in his world and it doesn't seem like he knew the Regina from his world as well as Hook Prime knew his Regina (since Wish Regina sailed off on the Jolly Roger and Whook hung out taking care of baby Alice). Does Whook know that Henry is Milah's grandson and Bae's son? Does that matter to him? I guess Henry and Hook Prime were on good terms, given their hugs of greeting and farewell, but is it weird for Henry to be around this Hook? Does he ever start to refer to things his Hook would know, only to remember it's a totally different person? We've mostly seen Regina being snarky to Hook Prime. She was a lot nicer to Whook in this episode. I can't imagine Regina ever wiping Hook's fevered brow or fussing over him during an illness. She'd make a "sassy" quip about his weakness. What does Ella think of this guy, and vice versa? Has she learned about the weird relationship, that this guy is another universe's version of Henry's stepfather? They entirely skipped all the team development, how Henry, Regina, and Whook are getting along, and how Ella and Tiana are interacting with them.

And that lack of development saps the chemistry from the HH interactions. If we don't know what Whook's relationship with Henry is, there's no resonance when we see something similar reflected or contrasted in the relationship between Henry and Rogers. It could be interesting to see them interacting as peers, since Whook didn't know Henry as a child and would only see him as an adult, but we don't know what's going on with the ages/timeline. Did Henry age faster and was there some timeline wonkiness/compression between the flashbacks and now, so that their respective ages are close to the actors' ages, with Rogers in his mid-30s and Henry in his early 30s, or is Whook/Rogers supposed to be in his 40s now, so he's still old enough to be a father figure to Henry? (It gets weirder when you consider that the actress playing Henry's love interest is older than the actor playing Henry's stepfather.)

As with the initial incarnation of this show, Once Upon a Time in Offscreenville is probably more interesting than the parts they choose to show.

[Rumsy4]

The age discrepancies between the characters makes it seem like some characters aged faster than others, while some characters were frozen in time, even when they were in the same Realm. In the meantime, there also seem to be Realms where time moved faster or slower than Storybrooke. It’s all over the place. The writers aren’t even trying anymore. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

I've been trying to figure out what the link to the title was, since Cinderella's trademark blue dress didn't show up, and I finally realized that maybe it's about the triangle between Henry, Nick, and Jacinda, where the rich, smooth guy swoops in and takes the girl away from the nerdy friend. So Henry is Ducky, and Nick is Andrew McCarthy. Can we maybe hope that they go with the same ending as the movie?

Edited November 24, 2017 by Shanna Marie
Punctuation matters

[Rumsy4]

10 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I've been trying to figure out what the link to the title was, since Cinderella's trademark blue dress didn't show up

She wore a blue dress to her non-date with Nick at the restaurant. Not sure if that’s supposed to mean anything.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

She wore a blue dress to her non-date with Nick at the restaurant. Not sure if that’s supposed to mean anything.

It cracked me up when she was trying to convince Sabine it wasn't a date, because her dress was so low-cut.

Edited November 24, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

She wore a blue dress to her non-date with Nick at the restaurant. Not sure if that’s supposed to mean anything.

I didn't even notice what color her dress was! So, that's where the "blue" part comes from, and I'm thinking they are referring to the triangle, where we have the girl from the wrong side of the tracks who has a nerdy male friend who's in love with her, but then she gets swept off her feet by the rich, slick guy, except as nerds these writers are probably rewriting the story so the nerdy guy wins. They did have her seem to choose the nerdy guy, only he'd already flounced off to Frisco with his mom. And speaking as an 80s teen who rewatched the movie as an adult and was appalled, she's better off with neither guy because the nerd was a creepy stalker and the rich guy didn't have a functioning brain cell (seriously, you're dating someone from outside your social circle, and you can pretty much guarantee that your social circle will be cruel to her because they're generally cruel to her kind of people, and for a first date, you take her to a party with all your snobby friends? There wasn't a movie showing somewhere? There were no restaurants in that town?). At least we were spared the scene in which Jacinda cut apart a perfectly lovely vintage dress to make some hideous creation to wear on the date -- though, come to think of it, that would actually have been in character for Cinderella, aside from the part about what she made being truly ugly.

I guess when you think about it, Pretty in Pink was kind of a Cinderella story, with the poor girl getting help from her fairy godmother Annie Potts to go to the prom and meet up with a "prince." Still, not my favorite John Hughes 80 teen movie. Sixteen Candles was funnier, and The Breakfast Club more relevant. I wonder when we'll get the episode with references to those.

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Sixteen Candles was funnier, and The Breakfast Club more relevant. I wonder when we'll get the episode with references to those.

Sixteen Roman Candles and The Breakfast Cudgel (where the Troll under the bridge comes to life)

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

I didn't even notice what color her dress was! So, that's where the "blue" part comes from, and I'm thinking they are referring to the triangle, where we have the girl from the wrong side of the tracks who has a nerdy male friend who's in love with her, but then she gets swept off her feet by the rich, slick guy, except as nerds these writers are probably rewriting the story so the nerdy guy wins.

For sure they were referring to that love triangle.  These guys love their 80s movies.  Remember that pretentious speech Henry gave to Violet in "I'll Be Your Mirror"?  

Cinderella was also wearing a blue outfit in the flashback.  I'm assuming they're dressing her in blue because that's "Cinderella"'s color.  

Alice also wears something blue. 

"Pretty" is used 4 times.  Drizella is the character referred to as "pretty" (by Alice) and also says the word "pretty" (about the fungus).

Henry says the other two "pretty"'s, including "I'm pretty drunk" and "I'm pretty sure".

[Mabinogia]

I finally got around to watching this because, well, there was literally nothing else on that I even remotely wanted to watch so I figured, might as well. I actually kind of liked this ep, well, the parts that weren't about Ella. I am really interested in the Whook/Alice/Gothelpunzel story. I liked the scene at the end with Rogers and Tilly. The actors work well together and I look forward to more of them together. I'm even sort of interested in the whole Gothel and Ivy trying to wake Anastasia stuff. Curious where that might go. I still hate Ella and everything that has to do with her. Rumple still sucks and I wish they had left him in Storybrooke. I think I'd rather this season was about the wish realm than Hyperion Heights, which I'm still confused about. They're cursed there, right, in HH? So they can't leave? Expect when they can? Is the curse just that they don't remember who they are? How, exactly, is that a curse? I really do not understand the HH curse at all. I just watch for the very few characters I still like. I do wish SabineTiana had more to do than support stupid Ella/Jacinda because I like her, and certainly better than the E/J. 

[Rumsy4]

13 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I'm even sort of interested in the whole Gothel and Ivy trying to wake Anastasia stuff. Curious where that might go.

I think Ivy wants to revive her sister so she can curse her and their mother with the poisoned-heart thing (apparently the current rage in the magical world). So, her mother will get what she wanted all along, but will never be able to enjoy it. Gothel probably wants World Domination. Or Storybrooke (becasue all villains want to take over Storybrooke). 

[Mabinogia]

thanks Rumsy4. This show has the most convoluted villain plots imaginable. It's like they all attended the Wile E Cayote seminar on how to concoct the least effective evil plots ever. Why not just enjoy watching your mother weep over your sisters inanimate body while you run a big company and mommy has nothing? Clearly these folks have never heard that living well is the best revenge. 

[Rumsy4]

15 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Clearly these folks have never heard that living well is the best revenge

And then there's Snow and Charming, who take that idea to a whole another level. 

This Show only dabbles in extremes. 

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Why not just enjoy watching your mother weep over your sisters inanimate body while you run a big company and mommy has nothing? Clearly these folks have never heard that living well is the best revenge. 

Drizella could have ruined her mother's life at the end of the flashback in "Wake Up Call".  Her plan in this episode was beyond convoluted.  It makes the character look idiotic, not the other way around as it was probably intended.

[kili]

Quote

But that's not a very attractive character trait, so then why would cursed Roni be pushing Henry toward someone who isn't trying to do anything with her life and can barely be bothered to stir herself to get custody of her daughter back?

This curse seems to come with a soupçon of malaise. None of the cursed people have any get-up-and-go. Henry was tooling around in his apartment not writing a book. Jacinda waffled along in her minimum wage job while her boss yells at her and she made little effort to get her daughter back. Regina's bar was struggling and she was about to sell it. Tiana also had a minimum wage job and Roger was a police officer with no ambition (he doesn't even do much to solve the case which is troubling him). Even Rumple just spent his days being a bad cop, but without any discernible benefit to himself.  

Now that the curse is starting to break, Regina's bar is doing better, Tiana had an idea of how to make money, Roger solved his crime, Rumple has a plan and Jacinda bought a truck. 

I like Jack/Nick.

The need to do something about Jacinda. Her character is not working and the actress is struggling to play her. Her backstory is all over the place. Since her Mom is obviously not dead (Tilly was lying through her teeth), maybe speed up her return? IDK. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by kili

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 11/17/2017 at 11:51 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I guess we have an idea what Baby CaptainSwan may be named if she's a girl. If WHook named his daughter after his late mother, then Hook Prime may do the same, since Emma's mother is still around, and I can't imagine Emma being willing to name a child "Snow White."

Mary Alice.  ;)

On 11/18/2017 at 1:33 AM, Camera One said:

The Whook-Alice connection followed nicely from the last episode, and I think it was a good choice to dove-tail that with the mystery of Cinderella's mother to reveal what a "poisoned heart" actually means.  It gave the events in the flashbacks some cohesion and purpose.  The Wonderland backdrop did make things slightly more interesting.

What I don't understand though, is why Alice couldn't stick around in the Not!Enchanted forest?  Whook's poisoned heart meant that they couldn't physically touch, I guess, but they were in close proximity and nothing bad happened to him.  Why did she have to stay so far away from him?  She could have joined their merry band of renegades (who knows what they are even fighting anymore?) and played chess with Whook when he wasn't out patrolling.  Chess does not require physical contact.  

On 11/18/2017 at 3:25 AM, KAOS Agent said:

Cinderella's necklace says they're true love or whatever, so now she's totally down with Henry. Really? So Henry's actions meant nothing until a magical object said it was meant to be.

It's the whole lion tattoo thing again.  Henry is a lot like Regina.  

On 11/20/2017 at 1:33 PM, Shanna Marie said:

While it was nice that they remembered that they're repeating the Kathryn/David/Mary Margaret story, I had a "shut up, Lucy" moment when Lucy said no one wants to be the Kathryn. Kathryn was awesome. She wasn't a loser in a love triangle. She decided that David and Mary Margaret deserved each other belonged together, gave them her blessing, and planned to go to law school.

Not to mention, I thought her EF character was awesome as well.  While she first came across as a bitch to David, once you found out that it's because she didn't want to marry him because she was in love with Frederick, she actually helped him get out of marrying her.

On 11/21/2017 at 0:59 PM, Rumsy4 said:

See--that's the problem. She screen-tested with a piece of bread. She should have at least made sure it was garlic bread and not a dinner roll.

Nothing.  I only quoted it because I liked it so much, I wanted to see it again!  :)

[Shanna Marie]

19 hours ago, kili said:

This curse seems to come with a soupçon of malaise. None of the cursed people have any get-up-and-go. Henry was tooling around in his apartment not writing a book. Jacinda waffled along in her minimum wage job while her boss yells at her and she made little effort to get her daughter back. Regina's bar was struggling and she was about to sell it. Tiana also had a minimum wage job and Roger was a police officer with no ambition (he doesn't even do much to solve the case which is troubling him). Even Rumple just spent his days being a bad cop, but without any discernible benefit to himself.  

Rogers was actually supposedly a go-getter. He was the only cop who bothered to try to do his job, and the other cops called him "Eagle Scout" because of him being a goody-goody who tried. When Weaver started working with him, he said he was too ambitious about wanting the promotion to detective and he set up a test of his ethics (though that test explanation may have been a cover for Weaver's crookedness). Rogers had been trying to solve the case but kept getting blocked, and he wanted the promotion so he'd have access to more resources. But, yeah, he seems to have been the only character who was trying at all. We don't know what Weaver was up to or what he got out of it, but I doubt he was getting cozy with Victoria for fun.

Roni's urging Henry to go after Jacinda came after everyone started getting more revved up. That's why it's weird if you really look at the situation, her urging Henry to go after a listless woman mired in a minimum-wage job who doesn't do much about getting custody of her child back from the woman who seemed to have treated her badly. Then again, Henry's also not doing much of anything with his life, so maybe they're suited for each other, but you'd think it would be a good idea for one of them to have some ambition and drive. Regina pretending to still be Roni trying to keep them apart is the most entertaining aspect of that relationship.

[Mabinogia]

37 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

That's why it's weird if you really look at the situation, her urging Henry to go after a listless woman mired in a minimum-wage job who doesn't do much about getting custody of her child back from the woman who seemed to have treated her badly.

Not to mention the fact that Jacinda and Henry both seem to have no interest in actually being a couple and never would have given each other a second look if that moronic Lucy wasn't hell bent on the idea of him being her father. It makes no sense at all that Roni would actually put in effort to get two people together who are barely even friends at the point she's trying to shove them together. I mean, are they the only two single people in Seattle and so they have no choice but to hook up? Because I just don't see any reason either of them would be interested in the other, beyond the whole "last two people on earth, must continue the human race" scenario. 

I mean, it's a tough thing, chemistry, some see it, some don't, but often with couples where I don't actually see the chemistry, I at least get, from the writing, why they are into each other. I just don't get it. Neither of them is a catch. And it's not an opposites attract kind of thing, where one brings out the best in the other or something. Maybe they both accept that they are the two most dull people on the planet and decided to do the rest of us a service by taking themselves off the market together?

I would give anything for a redo on Cinderella. New actress, new personality, new storyline. None of it is working for me.

[tessaray]

So, late to the party :-) but this story is finally starting to be a little interesting.  More Alice helped. And I admit to laughing when Ivy refused to villain monologue.  

Weaver has to be awake.  The look on his face when Regina mentioned Belle was subtle but there.  The question is why - the answer unfortunately is that no one cares. Nothing we've seen indicates any kind of long game.  If they are saving Rumple til they can stage some kind of dramatic twist, I have a feeling it will too little, too late. They need some kind of energy infusion right now.  

Just a thought but if Disney really wants to promote Star Wars, why not give us some Last Jedi anticipation via Henry and Nick instead?  (But then they'd have to send in the competent writers to oversee it (a la Frozen) and that would be an impossible task and a waste of money, considering the state of the show.  Never mind...)

[Mabinogia]

32 minutes ago, tessaray said:

The question is why - the answer unfortunately is that no one cares.

Well that there pretty much sums up this entire season.

[KAOS Agent]

6 hours ago, tessaray said:

Weaver has to be awake.  The look on his face when Regina mentioned Belle was subtle but there. The question is why

It's not a secret that he's awake. He was handling the Dark One's dagger at one point before Rogers walked in. It does seem like they are trying to tease Rumpel's end game, but aren't doing a very good job of it and it's just more annoying than intriguing.

[jhlipton]

15 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

it's just more annoying than intriguing.

Tagline for Season 7 (and far too much of the previous seasons!)

[darkestboy]

For a big Henry/Jacinda episode, this was a mixed bag.

Their romance still isn't working for me and the addition of Nick/Jack as Lucy's dad is a bit meh, though I did like the character and his interactions with everyone.

Drizella and Gothel working together is interesting but the former not looking to see if the coffin actually had Anastacia's body was idiot move 101.

Wish Hook and Alice had some nice scenes together and I did like the scene where Weaver wouldn't respond to Regina trying to get him to drop the act. He's got to be awake as well.

The show needs more Sabine and that bit about Jacinda signing over her parental rights of Lucy was nonsensical.

I'm guessing that Regina and Henry are bringing Zelena into the fold then, 7/10

[Shanna Marie]

We have another huge anticlimax here in WHook's epic search for his long-lost daughter, resolved when Alice walks up to him, all, "Hi, Papa! Now that we've revealed I'm your missing daughter, I can show up in the flashbacks!" And what was up with that bit of conversation with Regina in which he seemed surprised that she'd found the tower? Does the tower migrate, or something? Because he should have known exactly where it was. He's come and gone from there a few times that we've seen so far, and he's a navigator. They really committed to doing things the least interesting way.

See also the relationship between Henry and Ella. Why develop a romance when you can just show a necklace glowing and say that means they're in love?

Ella's got to be pretty dim to have never considered that the necklace dying might have meant that her mother died and that she used this as a reason not to believe in love. On the other hand, it is rather weird that her mother ditched her with her stepfather. It's even weirder ...

Spoiler

once you know the actual backstory. Ella was in her teens when Rapunzel came home, so she should have been well aware that there was some stuff going on that contributed to her mother's departure, with her stepfather's first wife showing up. She might not have been aware of all the nuances, like Rapunzel being treated like a servant in her own home, but there were plenty of reasons for wife 2 to want to bug out of there. Her departure shouldn't have been a mystery. The real mystery is why she'd have left without her daughter. Given all the ages, even if the stepfather was the only father Ella had known, it wasn't like he'd been a father to her since infancy. They couldn't have been a family that long, even if he remarried a hot second after wife 1 went missing. If she even suspected Rapunzel was behind the poisoning, it counts as child abuse for her to have abandoned her daughter, and even if she didn't suspect, surely she would have guessed her daughter would be a bit of an outsider in that family.

All the drama about Jacinda having given up custody must have been a response to the outcry of "that's not how that works" after the season premiere when Victoria got custody of Lucy. It's still iffy because Victoria, as a stepmother to Jacinda, would have had no claim to Lucy at all. Courts are extremely reluctant to take children away from their parents, so as long as Lucy wasn't abused, Jacinda wasn't on drugs, and Lucy was fed, clothed, clean, and in school, there would have been no grounds for Victoria to take her. Even if it came to court, a judge might have looked askance at the obviously different treatment between Ivy and Jacinda, which didn't speak well for what kind of parent she was. Jacinda was an idiot to cave and give up custody.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Jacinda was an idiot

She's probably the dumbest character to ever be on Once Upon a Time. I'm glad this episode is the only solo centric she ever got.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

She's probably the dumbest character to ever be on Once Upon a Time.

Which I guess makes her the perfect mate to The Truest Stupid. And Lucy definitely has their genes. That nut didn't fall far from either tree.

[Camera One]

All I could think about at work today was getting home, putting on my mixtape to listen to some Yazoo and watching "Pretty in Blue".

You'd think from the previous episode, this episode would have been Rogers helping "Eloise" to adjust to life.  Maybe "Eloise" gets annoyed at his constant intrusions.  Eventually, Rogers gets suspicious of her and begins to investigate her, bringing some actual focus to that subplot.

But nope, it looks like A&E were readjusting again, with the abrupt "Let's go to San Francisco!" ending because they had reached a creative dead-end with the existing characters on the show after eight hours.  

Spoiler

So distraction, everyone!  Zelena next week!  That'll take up two hours of plot, right? 

So Drizella and Gothel's subplot in this episode was "Where did Victoria put Anastasia's Body".  And the cliffhanger was "Where did Victoria put Anastasia's Body".  Riveting progress.  I thought I remembered Victoria wheeling that coffin into the parking garage or whatever building they were in.

Good point about why wouldn't Whook have immediately gone to see the Tower?  Instead of asking Roni about whether it was truly in ruins or not.  I enjoyed seeing Alice and Whook in the flashbacks, but that's another good point we skipped their entire journey to find each other.  How did Drizella randomly meet Alice, anyway?  Alice must have been super gullible to spill her entire sad story to her.  Rumple didn't warn her about Drizella?  

Roni seemed surprised that Drizella was working with Gothel.

Spoiler

I thought she already knew this before the Curse was enacted?  When the coat hangers came by?  Or maybe I forgot.

When Henry recounted how Charming trapped Snow in a net, Jacinda said, "That's weird and aggressive".  No more weird and aggressive than you were punching Henry in the face and stealing his motorcycle.  Henry added, "She hit him with a rock first."  That explains why A&E thought they could get lightning to strike twice with a couple who meets and attacks each other.

Ella said, "I hate Wonderland" like she had been there before.  But I thought only her dad went before to search for her mother.

The dialogue between Henry and Sabine in the garage was just atrocious the second time around.  I side-eyed how she suggested Jacinda ask her ex-boyfriend to be the lawyer and then got all surprised that Jacinda might be tempted to get involved with him again.

You'd think from this flashback that we would have gotten more dynamic between Henry, Ella and Jack in the past, maybe even suggesting that Lucy was Jack's daughter for real

Why would Sabine let Jack into their secret secret camp?  Why not have him wait outside and ask Henry to go out and talk to him first?

Spoiler

But nope

Rumple was such an irritating selfish jerk when he pretended to not have his memories with Regina.  And we're supposed to want him to reunite with Belle?  And shouldn't he have been following Gothel or Drizella or something?  

So I don't get what Drizella's plan was.  She guessed that Henry and Jacinda's TLK would break the Dark Curse?  Based on what?

And now that we've seen the season, was it true Roni couldn't contact Storybrooke?

Edited October 12, 2019 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Wait, is this the episode where we discover that Henry has been entertaining his friends with a one man stage version of The Empire Strikes Back? And they paid such good attention that they've got it memorized too. Why would anyone hang out with this weirdo? 

[Shanna Marie]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

You'd think from the previous episode, this episode would have been Rogers helping "Eloise" to adjust to life. 

How long have you watched this show? Narrative momentum is overrated. WHook/Rogers had his centric, so now it's time for someone else's centric, regardless of how the plot lines progress. Actually, "Eloise" bringing him the cake and toying with him and then Roni dumping the cake so he couldn't eat it (just in case) is more follow-up from the previous episode than we usually get because they bothered to acknowledge the previous episode.

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

I enjoyed seeing Alice and Whook in the flashbacks, but that's another good point we skipped their entire journey to find each other. 

This is even worse than the "search" for Cinderella. At least there they mentioned using the location spell on the glass slipper, so there was some implication of "it happened offscreen." WHook supposedly had spent decades looking for his daughter, but after he truly commits to the quest as a changed man, he doesn't seem to do anything at all. She just shows up. And it turns out that they've been hanging out in the vicinity of where he brought her up this whole time.

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

Roni seemed surprised that Drizella was working with Gothel.

  Hide contents

I thought she already knew this before the Curse was enacted?  When the coat hangers came by?  Or maybe I forgot.

Spoiler

I thought they were all there when the curse was enacted, but I suspect the writers hadn't made that part up yet, so in this episode Roni's surprised.

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

I side-eyed how she suggested Jacinda ask her ex-boyfriend to be the lawyer and then got all surprised that Jacinda might be tempted to get involved with him again.

Not just ex-boyfriend. Father of her child. With whom she's had no contact since her child was born, apparently. I wasn't sure from this if he didn't even know about Lucy. Even if he was kind of a loser at first and might not have had money for child support, once he became a lawyer he should definitely have been helping support his kid if he knew about her.

They were definitely trying to do the Pretty in Pink triangle here, with the girl torn between her nerdy friend and the slick rich guy, but did they really want to depict Henry as Ducky, who was actually kind of a creepy stalker? He comes across as a Nice Guy here, where he's upset because he did all that work on her food truck and made her a mix tape but she's going out with the slick lawyer guy (who happens to be the father of her child). Henry's getting drunk and pouting that being a Nice Guy didn't automatically win her over -- except he's just assuming since it turns out he did win her over but he doesn't know it because he's been too busy drunkenly pouting and then skips town. And we're supposed to like this guy? Never mind that he's barely shown any interest in this woman, himself, and only seems to be going after her because people told him he should.

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

So I don't get what Drizella's plan was.  She guessed that Henry and Jacinda's TLK would break the Dark Curse?  Based on what?

She'd read the scripts? Because she was doing that before the necklaces glowed and told us it was True Love, and it's not like anything else had happened along the way.

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

And now that we've seen the season, was it true Roni couldn't contact Storybrooke?

Spoiler

I'm guessing it's because it would be altering the past because of time travel. If she contacted Storybrooke, she'd be in touch with her past self before she left, before Henry left, and that might change their plans, which would change their reality. But then that's exactly what ended up happening. Henry called his past self, and they all ended up going to Storybrooke before Henry left, which surely changed things. So whatever. I remember that I was speculating that this was how they'd resolve things, they'd contact Storybrooke and warn Henry not to leave, which would erase this version of the future and mean none of this happened, and we'd end back in Storybrooke in our present, with Henry surrounded by his family as he prepares to go off to college.

9 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Wait, is this the episode where we discover that Henry has been entertaining his friends with a one man stage version of The Empire Strikes Back? And they paid such good attention that they've got it memorized too. Why would anyone hang out with this weirdo? 

Yeah, it looks like he taught his friends all about Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back, to the point they could quote it along with him, and they were interested enough in it to memorize it, too, even though they had no context for these scenes and had never actually seen the movie.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

How long have you watched this show? Narrative momentum is overrated. WHook/Rogers had his centric, so now it's time for someone else's centric, regardless of how the plot lines progress. Actually, "Eloise" bringing him the cake and toying with him and then Roni dumping the cake so he couldn't eat it (just in case) is more follow-up from the previous episode than we usually get because they bothered to acknowledge the previous episode.

Even if they didn't do it in this episode, that would have been the natural path of Rogers' arc in Hyperion Heights.  Following up on Eloise and becoming suspicious should have been his next centric.  That could have been an engaging adventure with him and Alice.   After finding Eloise, his character becomes aimless.  Gothel is back hanging out with Evil Ivy in the exact same place she was imprisoned.  

I'm puzzled by the cake scene because it essentially goes nowhere.  Was it supposed to be a one-off joke?  An impressive visual shot with the cake oozing through the holes in the waste basket?  It certainly didn't make Rogers think twice about Eloise nor Roni.

Was anyone sad that we were without Victoria for an entire episode?  I wonder if this was their first step of getting rid of her, or if they were still intending to keep her around for Season 8 (because you know A&E were still clinging to A New Hope even by this juncture).

I was super annoyed by Weaver's pronouncements to Rogers like "You have no idea what you just blew wide open" or something to that effect (which Rogers doesn't pursue).  Do they think it's clever because the audience knows but Rogers doesn't?  And it's not like dear ol' changed Wumple is doing a thing about it.   You'd think he would visit Victoria to make a deal so we could at least get people fighting against Ivy/Gothel, who has zero opposition.

It's ridiculous how Ivy talks to Gothel like Ivy is the one with the upper hand.  And Gothel is only asking Ivy now why she wants to resurrect Anastasia?  

Spoiler

Unless they hadn't decided just how powerful Gothel would be yet?  But they already established she was frickin' Mother Gothel. 

Are we supposed to believe Ivy and Gothel did not discuss their plans at all in the Disenchanted Forest before enacting the Dark Curse?  Did they have the planning skills of A&E?

Edited October 12, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I'm puzzled by the cake scene because it essentially goes nowhere.  Was it supposed to be a one-off joke?  An impressive visual shot with the cake oozing through the holes in the waste basket?  It certainly didn't make Rogers think twice about Eloise nor Roni.

I think we're supposed to imagine Roni is some kind of badass for throwing an entire cake in the garbage right before Rogers' eyes.

[tennisgurl]

So does Henry just force all of his fairy tale friends to memorize scenes of moves they've never seen (and presumably have no idea what a movie is) so they can act them out with him for his benefit? Do they have to watch his one man shows where he recreates famous movie scenes with no context? Does he sometimes stop back in Storeybrooke so he can remember all the lines of movies, but never bothered to say hi to his family? God Henry is a weirdo, I have no idea why anyone wants to hang out with him. 

Why have Jacina/Henry and Murderella/Henry actually fall in love, when the narrative can just TELL us that they're totally in love now thanks to a handy dandy plot device necklace! The amount they are trying to push Henry/Ella as the new Snowing is just embarrassing. No Murderella, whats weird and aggressive is you attacking and stealing from someone who was trying to help you.

Speaking of embarrassing, the constant attempts at seeming hip and with it, like the food truck and Henry's H-Town podcast just makes this show look even lamer than usual. A&E: "How do you do, fellow kids?" 

[Camera One]

I've never watched "Pretty in Pink".  I guess I missed out on all the clever parallels and that's why I wasn't able to appreciate this episode for the masterwork of writing it is.  

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Speaking of embarrassing, the constant attempts at seeming hip and with it, like the food truck and Henry's H-Town podcast just makes this show look even lamer than usual. A&E: "How do you do, fellow kids?" 

Storybrooke was timeless and could be enjoyed in any modern decade. You didn't have a bunch of current pop culture references or trends. HH seemed like a desperate attempt to stay relevant long after anyone stopped caring or watching.

"Look! Henry is a Not!Uber driver now!"

I appreciate the writers trying to a different setting with HH, but it doesn't really suit their writing style. It's supposed to be in the big city, but it still feels like a small town... just with more 2017/2018 references and sterile sets.

Edited October 12, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

27 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I appreciate the writers trying to a different setting with HH, but it doesn't really suit their writing style. 

They chose a different setting, but they didn't adjust their storytelling or use this new setting to their advantage.

There were so many new things that they could have explored.  Heck, they even teased these differences.  In interviews before Season 7, they pointed out that this was in the real world where there would be a mix of regular people and Cursed fairy tale characters.  But that major difference from Storybrooke was never utilized.  

They wrote Hyperion Heights as if it were Storybrooke, even though it was not.  For example, the Hyperion Heights police would be a subdivision of the Seattle police force.  Yet it was like Weaver was able to rule the roost.  

Anything different that they did do, like the NotUber job, was very superficial.  It did not figure into the story at all, except for that one montage in the first episode.  

Edited October 12, 2019 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

I'm puzzled by the cake scene because it essentially goes nowhere.  Was it supposed to be a one-off joke?  An impressive visual shot with the cake oozing through the holes in the waste basket?  It certainly didn't make Rogers think twice about Eloise nor Roni.

I think it was to show the fine line Regina is having to walk now that she's awake. As Regina, she knows that Eloise is Gothel, who is some kind of witch and who has a negative history with WHook, so she's worried that there might be something up with the cake "Eloise" gave Rogers. But since she has to pretend to be Roni and Roni has no reason to suspect Eloise, she can't come out and say that the cake is possibly poisoned, drugged, or enchanted -- and Regina should certainly know all about drugging/poisoning/cursing gifts of food. But she can't let Rogers eat it. So she trashes it and comes up with a lame excuse. I think we're supposed to think of poison when we see the cake oozing, and we wonder if Rogers maybe had a lucky break that Roni showed up when she did. (I remember spending the whole scene going "Don't eat the cake!" so I was actually relieved when Roni trashed it.)

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

I've never watched "Pretty in Pink".  I guess I missed out on all the clever parallels and that's why I wasn't able to appreciate this episode for the masterwork of writing it is.  

It's basically an 80s teen version of Cinderella, so we've got circular references going on, with Pretty in Pink referencing Cinderella, and now this show playing out Pretty in Pink with Cinderella. A poor girl from the wrong side of the tracks (Molly Ringwald -- Jacinda here) catches the eye of the slick rich guy (Andrew McCarthy -- Nick here), much to the dismay of her nerdy male BFF (Jon Cryer -- Henry here). There are ups and downs to their relationship, with them breaking up soon before prom. She defiantly goes to prom anyway with BFF, but she makes up with rich guy at prom. I was rather surprised to read much later that the original ending had her end up with the BFF, but apparently test audiences hated that and wanted her to be with the handsome prince type. My surprise was because the BFF was written exactly the way the sassy gay best friend would be in a teen movie now, so I figured he was just coded that way without them coming out and saying it, and while he was way overinvested in the girl's life, I got zero sense of any spark of interest from her. That seems to be the part they're using in this show, where Henry's way overinvested in Jacinda's life without showing much sign of actually wanting her, and she doesn't seem at all interested in him.

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I appreciate the writers trying to a different setting with HH, but it doesn't really suit their writing style. It's supposed to be in the big city, but it still feels like a small town... just with more 2017/2018 references and sterile sets.

And yet everyone's still obsessed with the 80s in spite of being 30-somethings in 2017.

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, Shanna Marie said:

And yet everyone's still obsessed with the 80s in spite of being 30-somethings in 2017.

As suggested, they should seriously have ended the season with Teenage Henry waking up from a bad dream.  

[KAOS Agent]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

That seems to be the part they're using in this show, where Henry's way overinvested in Jacinda's life without showing much sign of actually wanting her, and she doesn't seem at all interested in him.

Did she ever show interest in Henry? Not only in the present, but in the past? Was there anything really built up between them? Her hitting him and running off with his motorcycle to go murder some guy does not translate into a "Snow Falls" moment for them. Snow rescued Charming by essentially giving up her planned revenge on Regina by using the dust and she did it for a guy she barely knew. Cinderella didn't give Henry a second thought after knocking him out and stealing his only form of transport (and presumably all his worldy goods). He chased her down because he's an idiot. She's not all that into him and only seems to stick with him because a glowing necklace says they're True Love. Why would I want these two crazy kids to get back together? Both of them seem like they'd be better off with others.

[Camera One]

30 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

Her hitting him and running off with his motorcycle to go murder some guy does not translate into a "Snow Falls" moment for them. Snow rescued Charming by essentially giving up her planned revenge on Regina by using the dust and she did it for a guy she barely knew. Cinderella didn't give Henry a second thought after knocking him out and stealing his only form of transport (and presumably all his worldy goods). He chased her down because he's an idiot. 

It's interesting because if they did in Season 1 what we saw in Season 7, then it would only have been Snow robbing the carriage and hitting Charming with a rock and running off.  It was missing the entire rest of the "Snow Falls" interactions with the sacrifice, as you mentioned.  Charming actually had a reason for trying to find his attacker, since he wanted to get his ring back. 

In the rebel camp, Henry and Jacinda were play fighting and all that, but it seemed like their connection didn't go much deeper.  Jacinda didn't tell Henry about her past until he followed her into Wonderland.  

And then we got the True Love confirmation with the locket and that was it for their "epic" love story.  

Edited October 13, 2019 by Camera One