S04.E07: Nobody Roots for Goliath

[Milaxx]

3 hours ago, Panopticon said:

Like everyone else, my first thought was that Michaela could/should/would sell that dress. She started life with less than nothing. She's gotten as far as she has by being brilliant and practical and ambitious, not by being frivolous and dramatic. 

But by the end, I kind of liked that she made her wasteful grand gesture instead because it was out of character. I think she shocked herself with the revelation that she might someday be happy with an Asher and not a Barack and needed to spin off of that a little, in addition to coping with the stress of Laurel's stupid plan.  She ruined the dress it to prove a point to Asher, yes, but she also seemed to be living in the moment and getting some pure enjoyment out of the act of destruction. It could be good for her going forward to have had the experience of letting go just because it feels good--just because it pleases her and pleases this man she loves-- when even silver-spoon-born Asher pointed out that there was a sensible alternative. 

Even if her relationship with Asher doesn't last. Even if Asher turns out not to be worth it. 

I see what you are saying and I agree to a point. All the things you listed are things I like about Masher and why I think he's good for her. On the other hand I want to see that reciprocated.  Micheala does need to loosen up, but that doesn't mean lose her ambition. I want to see Asher mature & become more responsible. I want him to know when to be serious and when it's okay to be goofy. This episode when Asher initially tried to shut Laurel's crazy plan down and when he expressed his concerns about whether he was really Micheals'a one, I saw glimpses of that. When he told her to sell the dress, when he told them all that secrets are what keeps getting them into trouble, I saw it. Its just that we don't see this part of him often enough and the way both he and Frank were so easily manipulated into going along with this plan was disappointing.  I know the plan had to go forward as part of the action of the show, but the writers need to give us more of a indication as to why we should cheer for Masher than the fact that they are an odd couple and the actors have good chemistry. 

3 hours ago, healthnut said:

I love this show but it has SO many issues!

.....

2. Laurel/Frank - Like many of you, I hated Laurel/Wes, I don't care about the baby and I don't see how a baby fits into this universe. I do like Frank and I like Frank with Laurel, I don't particularly care for him begging to be with her. So now he plans to got to Middleton, too, since his scores were so great. Are they going to time jump next season five years in the future, so he's already a lawyer. This whole Frank takes LSAT is coming out of nowhere for me.

3. Laurel's Plan - This plan is stupid. It's quite far fetched Laurel's dad got wind of Wes's agreement and had him killed so his IPO wasn't ruined. This is so left field, IMO. This plan is ridiculous and why anyone would agree to it, Michaela included is beyond me. 

Boy, a lot sure happens in the next 48 hours. I'm still not really understanding Isaac's role or the weird occurrence of his ex-wife. 

Also, couldn't believe Nate is cool enough to let Annalise sleep on his sofa or that she really had nowhere else to go.

Oh, this show...

I didn't mind Frank/Laurel first time around. I had a hard time buying Wes/Laurel. However, I really dislike Frank/Laurel this time around because that car scene still feels squicky to me and  it feels like Laurel doesn't care about him and is only using him for sex and this crazy scheme to get her father.  It's making Laurel as a character unlikable even as a sort of anti-hero.

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

I know they haven't dropped any hints to suggest this is possible, and it's purely just my personal wishes, but what if Jorge is one of the people bleeding at one of the crime scenes? We do know the C&G party is for Antares. So he and/or his minions are in town. And they could go after Annalise and get shot by Nate, or by Anna herself, while doing so. Or, just as/more likely, maybe they are at the C&G party and Asher decides to shoot Jorge, because he's that kind of a dude and we do know he's in jail.

I still can't picture Laurel at Anna's apartment, so the speculation that the blood there is related to Laurel seems like a stretch, unless maybe she went to hassle Connor. I guess if that happened, maybe Connor is kidnapped along with "little waitlist". But then how did Laurel get to the hospital?

We know someone is entering A's apartment (they placed the booze this week), and that Isaac has met Michaela, Frank, Laurel before the events, and is freaked out about Anna not answering his call. None of that has been set up at all with any plausible explanation, either, so I suppose nothing is off the table at this point-- there are way too many unanswered questions and too many pieces they have not even hinted at showing us, for us to have a well-founded idea of what happened, at this point. Too many gaps.

I wouldn't mind if it was Jorge. He doesn't even have to truly die. People flatline and get shocked back during traumas and this show is notorious for misdirection in their promos and flashforwards. 

[Keepitmoving]

One more thing, where the hell was the make-up sex scene with Masher? No make up sex, after ALL that? Get the fuck out of here.  All that shit, all that strife and the man comes home to ketchup and and old wedding dress. Whatever PN, whatever. All that corny, bullshit symbolism with the ketchup and Vera Wang dress was time that could have been put to better use with a love scene, ugh. And judging by the previews, they could use it considering the separation they're  more than likely about to go through. Ugh, this damn show.

But there apparently is plenty of time to see Laurel's pregnant belly, full of questionable baby daddy genetics sexing it up with Frank, yeah, ok.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

I've noticed they aren't as generous with the love scenes on this show. They'll show plenty of hugs and kisses but I think actual love scenes aren't quiet as frequent and when they are it's often the hot and heavy instead of romantic and slow. I hope they didn't use of their love scene screen time for the first half of this season on Laurel & Frank. 

[jhlipton]

On 11/9/2017 at 8:18 PM, Annber03 said:

If only he'd stuck to his guns and they came up with another way to try and get justice for Wes.

On 11/9/2017 at 10:12 PM, Artsda said:

Them getting justice for Wes on ruining Simon's life is horrid. All for what? Laurel's guilt she probably feels for cheating and is now over compensating into trying to get justice. Wes was turning on them all, why are they even doing any of this? 

What do any of these folks owe Wes?  It was his girlfriend that got them in trouble in the first place; he was always more loyal to his Girl of The Moment than to the K5, and he was planning on turning on them.  If it was me, when Laurel said "Do it for Wes", I'd have said "Wes who?"

On 11/9/2017 at 9:05 PM, blackwing said:

But I'm not sure how Asher would be a suspect then.

I think this is another misdirect.  No one ever says Asher is a suspect for what happened at C&G.  He might be in jail for a totally different reason.

On 11/10/2017 at 7:04 AM, Neurochick said:

Hey, it may be the only way, and that’s sad.

On 11/10/2017 at 4:39 PM, Sandman said:

Even though they've begun to recognize that they're all fairly horrible people, they're still justifying their behaviour as driven by necessity -- "it's the only way" -- rather than as driven by what actually drives them: self-protection or self-righteous revenge. But "we're doing this because Laurel's wearing the Crazy Hat this season, and so we all hate her father" has a much less noble ring.

Nope.  They can say "Sorry, Laurel, but your problems are not our problems and we refuse to let you make them.  Bye Felicia!"

And @Sandman has it 100% right.

[koganei]

is Connor dead?

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm not sure who may have Laurel's baby, but, the child is certainly more safe than he would be staying with the K group.  

[Sandman]

7 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Nope.  They can say "Sorry, Laurel, but your problems are not our problems and we refuse to let you make them. Bye Felicia!"

Heh. This kind of thinking would have ended the show at the very first episode. So, y'know, bravo to you!

Does the show seriously expect us to be wracked with sympathy for Annalise because she fears she might be a truly bad person and a destructive influence in the lives of others? I'm sorry, but I thought this was clear from the beginning: someone whose syllabus includes Murder 101 has already given up all but the most tenuous claim on my sympathy.

[jhlipton]

47 minutes ago, Sandman said:

someone whose syllabus includes Murder 101 has already given up all but the most tenuous claim on my sympathy.

The class is useful for those going into the criminal justice branch (as opposed to the civil justice branch) to learn how to defend clients if they head to defense, or what to look out for if they go to prosecution.  And it made a nice framing device for the cases.

Edited November 12, 2017 by jhlipton

[Sandman]

Oh, I understand the in-show justification for the premise of her class (and the show), but I've never found it realistic. Too risky for a university, I think.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

They can say "Sorry, Laurel, but your problems are not our problems and we refuse to let you make them.  Bye Felicia!"

Speaking of sorry, when is PN going to have sorry ass Laurel, give Anna a sincere apology for accusing her of being the one who was mainly at fault for what happened to Wes? I won't hold my breath, since they'll be nothing but poor Laurel with all her baby drama once everything is said and done. She can't say sorry yet, but she sure needs to fix that stink face she's still giving Anna when she runs into her. 

And no, the other ones do not owe Anna an apology, please. I keep seeing the stance that they should be more thankful, no. For what? She was a co conspirator when she decided to come up with the plan to hack up Sam's body and you know who she did that the most for? Fucking Wes. She did not do it first and foremost for and of the others if at all. He was always the one on her mind and in her heart, the others either benefited or fell depending on what she did in the name of Wes. Another thing THEY did NOT kill her husband, WES did in defense of Sam strangling that girl, then they proceeded to hack up and bury the body, unbeknownst to them that it was Anna's plan to do so. And one would be hard press to even get them on breaking and entering since they were accustomed to spending all hours at Anna's house. The only one who they could have  solid case on breaking and entering is that girl Rebecca at the suggestion of annoying ass Nate. Then Mickey and Connor tried to get Laurel on board with turning themselves in at one point and Laurel ratted them out to Anna. Now they still could have said fuck it and gone to turn themselves in but at that point, knowing how resourceful Anna is, I can't even blame them for not doing so. Shit, how are they to bank on her not setting up Connor and Michaela to take the damn fall all so she could protect her Wes. That's the way she came off to me, so...So I'm over this bow down to Anna and these kids are all so much more at fault or more horrible and ungrateful. And if any of them are at this point is Laurel, that girl has dragged everyone into her shit and they are at fault for going along with it. But I can't stand her.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[SunnyBeBe]

On 11/11/2017 at 1:10 AM, NUguy514 said:

 

That would actually make Oliver the bossy bottom. ;-)

Dear Powers-That-Be,

Stop trying to make the Wes-and-Laurel-were-the-greatest-love-of-all-time thing happen.

With extreme vexation,

NUguy514

At the time, I couldn't stand  Wes or Laurel.  So glad that Wes is gone, but, all this continued dialogue about him......uh.....it's painful.  Will we ever get a straight answer about who's the baby daddy?  With the baby being missing, maybe not.  Just more drama to keep Wes's name alive. 

Did Laurel really think that Frank could be the father, thus the DNA sample or was she just throwing him a bone?  Or did she have some other ulterior motive?

You know, this is one series that if you didn't watch from day 1, I can't imagine how you'd make any sense of it.  

Edited November 12, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[wanderingstar]

I love the guest stars they get on this show. Oded Fehr! Nora Dunn! Kathryn Erbe! Shondaland casting just gives me life.

How far gone is this treacherous group? Frank was the voice of reason! 

Still loving the Connor/Annalise team.

Bonnie and Nate will never get off the Annalise crack.

Michaela - NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why do I feel Simon is in on some plan to trap Michaela and Oliver and expose their stupid plan.

Isaac is a ridiculous, ridiculous character - and on this show, that is saying something.

Hey - is Connor this season's Wes?

[Milaxx]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Will we ever get a straight answer about who's the baby daddy?  With the baby being missing, maybe not.  Just more drama to keep Wes's name alive. 

Did Laurel really think that Frank could be the father, thus the DNA sample or was she just throwing him a bone?  Or did she have some other ulterior motive?

I think she was throwing him a bone so he'd go along with her crazy plan. I hope it is Frank's kid. My guess is even  if it is, she'll lie and say it's Wes. Still she can sit in rot in the guilt that cheated on Wes forever. 

 

1 hour ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Hey - is Connor this season's Wes?

I don't think so. Other than knowing that AK blackmailed Denver into making that secretary take the blame for those photos, Connor's been living life on the straight and narrow. He's and AK honestly have been trying to start afresh. Wes was always in the middle of whatever drama was happening and his Rebecca obsession were a large part of the problems they found themselves in.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Why do I feel Simon is in on some plan to trap Michaela and Oliver and expose their stupid plan.

Yes, because he's had this thing in particular with Michaela since last season, when she got up in his face, stole his laptop etc..and he accused her of being a rich daddy's girl LOL, just there in law school trying to catch a husband. Then this season she got up in his face about Asher and said something about Simon not knowing what she is capable of. Then the look on his face when she won that bowl competition at work was if I could get rid of this "bitch" and put her in her place where she belongs kind of look. I mean that has to be going somewhere...no? Whatever goes down with him, I can't see him blaming anyone but solely Michaela. 

And they better get Asher the hell out of jail, Laurel reminding me of all the life Frank has taken, innocent life and his ass it out still roaming. They better free Asher then.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

I can see Simon trying to do something, but I don't think he has the skill set. He made those posters, but Micheala was able to steal his laptop & with Oliver's help he was found out... Oliver told him off at Wes's funeral. He doesn't even now enough to not watch porn at work .The K5 always manage to oneup him. Other than doing something to make Asher get kicked out of the office party and maybe arrested for trespassing, I'm not sure I see Simon being successful in trapping Micheal & Oliver.

On the other hand I wonder if he will find out how awful Oliver has been to him? He suspects Micheala stole his laptop, but he doesn't know Oliver hacked it. Oliver was the one to tell him off at Wes's funeral and now Oliver is framing him. Yet for some reason (crush maybe?) Simon seems to really like Oliver.

[wanderingstar]

Quote

Asher is right about the plan being bad, but I still find his behavior toxic and a bit frightening. I don't like Michaela groveling for forgiveness and I don't want her with him anymore.

Same here. I loathed his behavior this entire episode. Michaela damaging the dress instead of selling it annoyed me, but more importantly, I hated how Michaela had to pander to Asher's insecurity. 

[Keepitmoving]

1 hour ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Same here. I loathed his behavior this entire episode. Michaela damaging the dress instead of selling it annoyed me, but more importantly, I hated how Michaela had to pander to Asher's insecurity. 

As much as I've criticized his reaction to all this, solely because nobody in this group can be judge using normal criteria, so Michaela lying to keep him safe, well....

But I've also posted that I get his insecurity after what she said about Teagan being the one good thing in her life. Then it just dawned on me, or I just remembered that she never fully said she loved him until this season. Remember, last season he poured his heart out and she ran into the bathroom and I get why she reacted that way, totally, based on her background. But it doesn't lessen the sting to his heart nor his insecurity that, that was her response to his declaration of love. Then the season ends with her saying she "thinks" she loves  him, so, um, his insecurity is kinda reasonable. The lying about the plan was just the catalyst he used to push things to a head to get off what was really on his chest. I really think just based on his dialogue that his overreaction is about that uncertainty with regard to her love which all started with the response he got from her last season after he declared his love for her. I already said that, that bullshit with the dress was just more  Shondaland corny type writing, that PN is continuing on his show. It's ridiculous and has nothing to do IMO with what the characters would actually do. It was so fucking stupid I can't even associate it with her giving into Asher, the scene totally took me out of why she was doing it because it was so immature. Yet I did chuckle when Asher pointed to the dress and said she missed some spots, then he said something about being the new guy and Aiden take that, oh lord.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[scruffy73]

Who is Jorge?

[wanderingstar]

44 minutes ago, scruffy73 said:

Who is Jorge?

Jorge is Laurel's father.

I still cannot believe Denver gave Annalise the time of day, much less went along with her plan. That said, I love Benito Martinez and Viola Davis in scenes together.

[Milaxx]

5 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Jorge is Laurel's father.

I still cannot believe Denver gave Annalise the time of day, much less went along with her plan. That said, I love Benito Martinez and Viola Davis in scenes together.

Denver as they have written the character is both awfully overconfident and stupid at the same time. AK has manipulated him into closing cases twice now yet he helps her out because he thinks it makes the current AG who he is running against look bad? Are his ties with Jorge not strong enough to buy him the win? If so does he just like going battle with AK so much that he doesn’t see this as an opportunity to make her look bad?

[Joimiaroxeu]

Wow, I almost didn't recognize Oded Fehr (attorney general Chase). Good seeing him again and hope he'll be around for a while.

Okay, now I'm convinced Frank isn't the father of Laurel's baby because he's too easily worked by Laurel over the possibility. If he is the father then I doubt the baby will survive.

I don't trust Roa's ex-wife but I don't know why. Maybe she's jealous of Annalise's importance to Roa?

They're really trying hard to make us think Connor's a goner but I think it'll be Simon or Tegan. (There could be two people in surgery.) Asher could shoot Tegan out of jealousy, and/or Simon because he threatens Michaela.

[apn85]

On 11/11/2017 at 8:46 AM, Milaxx said:

I am annoyed at Laurel because last season we had to endure her weeping widow behavior while many of use struggled to accept the Wes Laurel love affair.  I get the concern and grief of all the K5 but Laurel felt OTT. This season we find out she slept with Frank in the middle of this grand love affair we were barely buying in the first place. It makes it feel as if it's less about avenging the love of her life and more about assuaging her guilt over cheating on him. Laurel has know her father is a "bad man" since she was sixteen and her refused to pay her ransom then made her perjure herself on the stand. She has lived off those ill gotten gains. It's one thing to do so as a minor, but she now an adult. Her ER records listed her as 27.  When she went to NYC(Ohio?) with Wes she used CC paid for by her father. She even said so when Wes said he couldn't afford a last minute plane ticket. If her dad was such a "bad man" why continue to live off those ill gotten gains? The annoyance factor is heightened because she's manipulating everyone into helping her and because they are all so dysfunctional they are going along. 

5

 

On 11/11/2017 at 5:28 PM, Milaxx said:

I didn't mind Frank/Laurel first time around. I had a hard time buying Wes/Laurel. However, I really dislike Frank/Laurel this time around because that car scene still feels squicky to me and  it feels like Laurel doesn't care about him and is only using him for sex and this crazy scheme to get her father.  It's making Laurel as a character unlikable even as a sort of anti-hero.

 

1

 

Yes to ALL of the above. 

 

As for the paternity test, I think she thinks it's a possibility he's Frank's. I cannot see her, at this point, coming off her high horse long enough to admit someone else might be right unless she actually thinks they might be right. She knows Frank doesn't care if it's his baby or not and he was already on board with the plan at that point. She hasn't been big on reciprocity lately, so I can't even see her tossing him a bone where that's concerned. She wants to know and she needed him for the test. That's my thoughts, anyway. 

I also don't see why on earth they even did all this if the baby is just going to belong to Wes anyway. It certainly wasn't to rope Frank in. He's in regardless. And Laurel sure as hell isn't going to say a word to anyone about what went on between her and Frank while she was with Wes unless she had to. Unless they find out otherwise, they'll never realize they've been following someone who has basically been playing on their sympathy the whole time. Knowledge of that night will stop with Laurel and Frank. I just don't get it, but it won't be the first time I've been confused by something done on this show. 

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, apn85 said:

She hasn't been big on reciprocity lately.

Laurel hasn't been big on reciprocity, ever.

[Milaxx]

Agreed & if she admits that Frank is the father she has to own up to the fact that she’s the for whatever drama happens at C&G, which includes talking Michaela & Oliver into lying to their partners & damaging their careers, the very thing she condemned AK for.

[possibilities]

If Wes is the father, I think they would use it as a way to redeem Frank; if he adopts the father role and sticks with Laurel, it means he's not just asserting his property rights, but he's actually sincere about doing something altruistic. I think the show is trying to find ways to justify keeping Frank around without having everyone hate him. This would be a plot that promotes the forgiveness narrative. I also think that having the baby die, or not be "from Wes," would make the whole thing a lot more sad, because people will frame it as there being nothing left of him.

Basically, from a storytelling perspective, it depends on whether they want hope and redemption or if they want more angst and doom.

[helenamonster]

I kind of wish that the baby was Frank's and that Laurel knew from the beginning and was using crocodile tears to get everyone to do her bidding, because that would be True Laurel and I miss her.

[apn85]

13 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Laurel hasn't been big on reciprocity, ever.

Well, you got me there! :P 

[apn85]

12 hours ago, possibilities said:

If Wes is the father, I think they would use it as a way to redeem Frank; if he adopts the father role and sticks with Laurel, it means he's not just asserting his property rights, but he's actually sincere about doing something altruistic. I think the show is trying to find ways to justify keeping Frank around without having everyone hate him. This would be a plot that promotes the forgiveness narrative. I also think that having the baby die, or not be "from Wes," would make the whole thing a lot more sad, because people will frame it as there being nothing left of him.

Basically, from a storytelling perspective, it depends on whether they want hope and redemption or if they want more angst and doom.

 

Very true!

My only thing is that could have all happened without ever going this route. Frank could have made that speech to Laurel and it been just as effective. Moreso, actually. He could have told her he didn't care that it wasn't his kid, he'd love him because he loved her. The way I see it, nothing currently happening would have been altered at all if they'd left that tidbit out. Because, like I said, if the baby belongs to Wes then literally nobody will know about that night except Laurel and Frank so why even bring it up? Probably to keep people guessing. Of course, just when I think Nowalk is doing something sensical......nope! 

I just think from a storytelling perspective the baby being Frank's would be so much messier. Not only do you have the aspect of what Laurel did, but you have the whole thing with Annalise and Frank that revolves around a baby. Plus, I don't think Laurel knows exactly why Frank and Annalise have bad blood between them. She knows something happened, but I don't get the impression she knows details. You know she'd love to find a way to make THAT about her too. "We lost our baby because of YOU, Frank! Because of what YOU did. It had nothing AT ALL to do with my hairbrained scheme that didn't make one damn bit of sense! It was YOUR fault! All YOUR fault!" I can almost hear it.........

Edited November 15, 2017 by apn85

[Milaxx]

21 hours ago, possibilities said:

If Wes is the father, I think they would use it as a way to redeem Frank; if he adopts the father role and sticks with Laurel, it means he's not just asserting his property rights, but he's actually sincere about doing something altruistic. I think the show is trying to find ways to justify keeping Frank around without having everyone hate him. This would be a plot that promotes the forgiveness narrative. I also think that having the baby die, or not be "from Wes," would make the whole thing a lot more sad, because people will frame it as there being nothing left of him.

Basically, from a storytelling perspective, it depends on whether they want hope and redemption or if they want more angst and doom.

This show? I'm thinking angst and doom overall with a smidgen of hope & redemption. It also varies character to character.  I think AK's storyarc has been about redeeming her just enough to keep her from becoming a complete monster in the eyes of the viewers. We get her childhood backstory, her life with Sam and the Mahooneys. All so we know why she is damaged.We get to see her try and rise above it. For the couples (Coliver & Masher) we get the angst because PN & co aren't ready to give them their happy ever after just yet. Frank also needed to be pulled back from the brink of being a monster, so his willingness to change and sacrifice himself for Laurel is his redemption arc.  I'm beginning to think Bonnie's default setting is just doom. Laurel is definitely angst & doom, especially since she's the catalyst for most of the drama this season.

[Star Aristille]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 7:39 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

I still cannot believe Denver gave Annalise the time of day, much less went along with her plan. That said, I love Benito Martinez and Viola Davis in scenes together.

If anything, Annalise is the one who shouldn't give Denver the time of day after all he and Milauna Jackson's character did to railroad her last season.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Star Aristille

[RedheadZombie]

It seems to me that the bathroom is the worst place to stash your gun.  I don't have one, but if I did it would be in my bedside table.  I think women feel most vulnerable while in bed, at least I do.

Isn't Isaac's drug of choice Heroin?  Jacqueline said he was showing signs of using again, and she mentioned he's not sleeping.  Heroin makes you relaxed and sleepy.  I don't get it.