S01.E08: Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

[KimberStormer]

I guess it's me, but I find the Klingons as boring as ever, and this episode, in fact, a huge bore.  I feel like Saru has the same exact story every episode he's in.  The planet was a bore.  The war, frankly, is a bore.  God knows I've seen enough "we could end this war!!" declarations in fiction to last me the rest of my life.  As usual I don't understand the point of putting this in pre-TOS days; we "know" they can't beat the cloaking device (which for some reason they never call the cloaking device) because it still works in the future -- except we don't know because they don't care about continuity...I mean I don't either but I just don't see why put it in the past.................

I think Cornwell's alive, but she fucking better be because I'm sick of them killing off strong women. 

[paigow]

9 hours ago, starri said:

Cornwell is excellent at hand-to-hand combat.  Where did she do her residency?

The Lorca bedroom...

[MissLucas]

It's possible that whatever the matriarchs did to Voq went sideways and he completely lost his inner Klingon. Or that the programming needs a specific trigger to bring the inner Klingon back. In that case L'Relld had probably not planned to let him out of her sight so soon. Or the plan had always been to use him to spy on other prisoners. Putting him into a cell with Lorca might have been a test-run and she simply had not planned for him to escape at that point.

But none of those things seemed to match what she said to the Admiral, that the chosen one (that must be Voq) was 'chased away'.

[CanadaPhil]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

It's possible that whatever the matriarchs did to Voq went sideways and he completely lost his inner Klingon.....

It's this point that had me always believing that Ash cannot turn out to be Voq because at his core Voq is a hardcore zealot.... seriously, we know he is a racial purity "we are the chosen master race" type. He is completely xenophobic. 

There is no way he would have knowingly undergone a transformation into Ash because it would have essentially killed who he was and go against everything he believes in. It would make him a non-Klingon. There is no way that Voq could ever reconcile that to himself. 

And who the Hell would follow him if he has in fact been turned into a human?

None of it really fits. It has to be a giant rope-a-dope that the showrunners are pulling.

[CanadaPhil]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

....

But none of those things seemed to match what she said to the Admiral, that the chosen one (that must be Voq) was 'chased away'.

There is always a little bit of truth in every statement and what she is really saying there is that "my leader is gone and I don't know where to find him"

Again, its another thing that adds to the confusion because it is another instance of the show-runners beating us with the Ash is Voq thing. How else can we as the audience interpret that?

Edited November 7, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[MissLucas]

I'll be more than happy if it turns out Ash is not Voq because I like him.

But as I said - it's possible something went wrong with the transformation and it went further than L'Rell and Voq had imagined - that's why he was 'chased away'. At this point the inconsistencies in Ash's backstory require a good explanation. As does Voq's disappearance from the plot the moment Ash shows up. Occam's razor and all that.

[CanadaPhil]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

I'll be more than happy if it turns out Ash is not Voq because I like him.

But as I said - it's possible something went wrong with the transformation and it went further than L'Rell and Voq had imagined....

Yes I got that.

I should have clarified.... I don't believe the real Voq would have even consented to anything that would have even remotely given him any human traits... even just a teensie-tiny bit. :D

That would just seem like an utterly filthy concept to someone like the real Voq.

EDIT... Hmmmmm... But perhaps the "Deceiver" pulled one over on dumb Voq and she has an even bigger game plan??

The way I see it, why would Voq have had to go under cover as a human at all??... Surely L'Rel, who apparently has been a trained "spy" from birth and has had operatives within the Federation for years (according to her own boast to Lorca) already has a countless number of already in place infiltrators?

Edited November 7, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[tpel]

I am less confident about what Voq would or would not do than others seem to be. T'Kuvma was a Klingon purity zealot, and Voq took on his mantle when T'Kuvma died, but Voq was always "other" -- an albino Klingon with no family -- so I'm not sure where he stands in terms of his revulsion toward humans. Clearly, he wants to defeat the humans. The question is, would he want to defeat us enough to become one of us, if that were the price? It is possible that, while he nominally consented to the procedure, he was not made fully aware of what it entailed. Hence, he has reason to be angry at L'Rell for partially duping him. If he agreed to become human, it is not really clear why. I mean, it doesn't seem plausible that this physical transformation would benefit him as a leader; the other Klingons would be less inclined to follow a human face.

What could L'Rell be getting out of this? In the short term, maybe Discovery. True, she indicated that the Klingons have spies elsewhere, but they probably don't have any on that ship -- the one that is key to the outcome of the war. So, it makes some sense to let Ash/Voq escape with Lorca, assuming that would put him where she wants him. But this seems like a moment where some bird-in-hand reasoning might be appropriate. She already had Lorca, who knows more about Discovery's special abilities than anyone except the scientists involved. Why would she let him go, after only pretty minor attempts to persuade him to talk, just to place an operative who might be useful later? I mean, for all she knew, the Federation could have a protocol of sending released prisoners of war back to Earth or a starbase for extended debriefing and care. I guess it could be valuable to have a spy on Earth, but the results would be less predictable. One possible explanation is that L'Rell planned on letting Tyler and Lorca escape later -- after she had learned everything she could from Lorca -- but they broke out on their own before she could implement this plan.

In the big picture, the only reason I can think of to give a Klingon a human body and human memories is to potentially bring about peace. In fact, I'm kind of guessing that's how this will go. The writers are trying hard to make Tyler likable and build his relationship with Michael. One day, he is "triggered" and his Voq personality comes to the forefront . . . and then what? If he just becomes a bad guy, his fans will be disappointed. But maybe his connection with the Discovery crew will prevail, motivating him to try to cease hostilities between Klingons and humans. That could be a somewhat sappy "love conquers war" outcome, but given Discovery's penchant for darkness, it might be a nice contrast.

[CanadaPhil]

1 hour ago, tpel said:

......

In the big picture, the only reason I can think of to give a Klingon a human body and human memories is to potentially bring about peace. In fact, I'm kind of guessing that's how this will go. The writers are trying hard to make Tyler likable and build his relationship with Michael. One day, he is "triggered" and his Voq personality comes to the forefront . . . and then what? If he just becomes a bad guy, his fans will be disappointed....

Well, I suppose if this ever happens we as the audience will get to be flies on the wall during the moment that Micheal has her heart ripped out and stomped on for good measure.

Maybe it could be Ash reaching across that now familiar mess hall table with outstretched hand saying...

"Let's try this again"...

"Hello, I'm Voq... Son of No One from House Nothing"....

"I dined on yer Step-Step-Mom during a pot luck Tuesday back at the Death Barge"....

"and I have to tell you she was yum-yumm-yummmy!"

 

These are events that could really alienate a substantial segment of the audience in my opinion. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[paigow]

47 minutes ago, tpel said:

But maybe his connection with the Discovery crew will prevail, motivating him to try to cease hostilities between Klingons and humans. That could be a somewhat sappy "love conquers war" outcome, but given Discovery's penchant for darkness, it might be a nice contrast.

TOS canon is that the Organian Peace Treaty ended this segment of the Federation - Klingon War.  The Organians were benevolent, non-corporeal entities with quasi- Q powers. They only appeared in a single episode so why they never created a similar deal for the Romulans is unknown.

[xaxat]

On 11/6/2017 at 4:37 PM, starri said:

I hope so.  I really like the character and the actress.

In addition to that, I think Cornwell is important to the structure of the show because,

On 11/6/2017 at 4:59 PM, tennisgurl said:

The guy has issues and I can see why Starfleet would be skeptical around him, but he is clearly a skilled commander and I also get why people would still follow him, even knowing how possibly shady he is. Even when Discovery doesn't succeed, I can see his competency as a leader and tactician. 

She's the one that best articulates that view from the perspective of Star Fleet. Despite their many reservations about his command, they keep him on because he is effective.

On 11/6/2017 at 4:59 PM, tennisgurl said:

He would probably freak me out a bit in daily life, but in the middle of a war? I would be glad to have him on my side. 

In the movie Black Hawk Down, Jason Isaacs played a controversial, real life Army officer. In a magazine profile, one of his fellow officers said that he was the kind of guy you keep on the shelf with a label "Break glass in case of war." 

ETA The Glenn, Gagarin, and Yeager have all been destroyed in the first eight episodes. Not good for the pioneers of flight/space.

[tennisgurl]

4 hours ago, CanadaPhil said:

These are events that could really alienate a substantial segment of the audience in my opinion. 

Yeah, I dont see anything good coming from Ash being a deep cover Klingon spy. If they were going for a shock, well, pretty much everyone with an internet connection and half an interest in the series have already heard the theory, so it wouldn't really shock anyone. If they thought it would be interesting from a character perspective, this would just piss off the fans that like Ash, as well as the fans who dont want to see Michael go through any more trauma, and would just be "meh" to the people who dont like Ash. So what would be the narrative point? 

Plus, introducing the whole "so deep cover they dont know what they really are" sci fi plot would basically just turn this into Battlestar Galactica: Klingon Edition. 

[tpel]

It is hard to see a solution to the Ash/Voq situation that will satisfy most people. Make him a klingon under cover, and you tick off the people who like the character and those that want to spare Michael pain. But, if he is exactly who he says he is, then there have been some significant directing lapses, I think. Does anybody believe this guy was tortured for several months? He showed apparently genuine rage toward L'Rell when he was escaping the prison ship, and (in my opinion) a less-convincing desire to hurt the klingons in this week's episode, and nothing in between. Other characters -- Michael and Stamets -- have commented on how remarkably well-adjusted he seems. His lack of evidence of trauma is in sharp contrast with Lorca, who, even when his issues are not center stage, carries with him a palpable sense that there is something going on -- hyper-vigilance, body language, etc. Now, obviously, different people react to trauma different ways, so I wouldn't expect his reactions to be the same as Lorca's. But, to buy his story, I need to see something. The potrayal of the character seems to be non-committal, like the writers are trying to keep their options open. Thus, I hope to see the show commit one way or the other. Either go the Ash/Voq route (but hopefully let him grow beyond his initial "programming") or develop him as a plausible human character, not just a love-interest for Michael.

[CanadaPhil]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

..... if they were going for a shock, well, pretty much everyone with an internet connection and half an interest in the series have already heard the theory, so it wouldn't really shock anyone. If they thought it would be interesting from a character perspective, this would just piss off the fans that like Ash, as well as the fans who dont want to see Michael go through any more trauma,....

Yeah, this is the thing!

The showrunners even seemed to have joined in now on various social media playing up and teasing this idea now!??

But like you say, fandom has been beating this drum for weeks now. Even very early on I myself almost felt I had caught something that no one else had noticed (haha).. But geez, they just began to beat us over the head with this thing week after week now. It's become a joke.

Don't get me wrong though. For the most part I am luvvvin STD!.. Hell, it might even shape up to be the best Trek in like... ever?

But if it were in fact to happen, there would be practically no shock value at all now... so what point would be served?. It could even derail the show if they don't pull it off and falls flat. 

Now again, on the other hand, if it were to have happened with no real advance warning, my mind would have been completely blown!

I may not like it, but I would still be the first one giving atta-boys and atta-girls to all concerned for having completely hoodwinked me and shocked the crap out of me. 

Then we could all go "ahah" and backtrack in our minds and clearly see all the tiny little things and Easter eggs that resulted in a mind bending payoff. 

THAT scenario would have been fantastic writing.

So that is why I need to still hope for some crazy sideways rope-a-dope because the other way would feel so anti-climactic in my opinion.   

[Ely]

Quote

I'd love it if Stamets was moving back and forth between time rather than starting a psychotic break because of being hooked into the spore drive.

I think so as well... and he's probably going a little bit crazy because of it. So I'm not sure if we've touched upon this but is it correct to assume that the spore drive is going nowhere because we never hear of it in the other shows? That would be a little depressing, I hope Stamets never finds out during his jumps.

Ash/Michael is sure moving fast which makes me suspect that Ash will soon turn into his crazy Klingon self and end all hope of romance. Because we all know how negative!fast ST-couples move. Riker and Troi needed 7 seasons and Paris and Torres to- and fro'd for quite a while as well. We'll see. Still not trusting Ash.

[Sadoi811]

On 11/5/2017 at 8:44 PM, piequinn35 said:

Is it just me that thinks Saru is like Sheldon.

hahaha!!!  This just about killed me when I read this!!  I never made that connection, buuuut... haaaahaa... as George Takei would say, "Ohh myyyy...!"

[kokapetl]

On 06/11/2017 at 10:31 PM, Helena Dax said:

Kelpiens are a fascinating species, and I've been wondering about them. They were prey, okay, but if they developed as the dominant species in their planet, doesn't that mean that they learnt at least to kill their predators? And doesn't that mean that they had to became predators/hunters too?

They seem dangerous and extremely impractical from an animal husbandry perspective. They also look like they’re all gristle and bone. Why would anyone eat them? The concept sounds cool, but they’re the worst cows ever.

I think Admiral Doctor Cornwell is still alive, but there’s too many double crosses and stuff going on to really know. She wasn't vaporized by a weapon, and she didn’t have a broken neck or a battleth through the heart.

The digital color timing/correction on this show is usually less than great, but add in color replacement and it looked awful. 

This is on par with colorized Bewitched episodes. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Kokapetl

[tpel]

I don't think the kelpiens are the dominant species on their planet. They may have developed enough to reach a stand-off with the species that preyed on them, such that they are no longer easy targets. But I don't get the sense that Saru's people are in charge.

21 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

They seem dangerous and extremely impractical from an animal husbandry perspective. They also look like they’re all gristle and bone. Why would anyone eat them? The concept sounds cool, but they’re the worst cows ever.

Worst. Cows. Ever. . . . . is my new favorite quote!

[CanadaPhil]

1 hour ago, tpel said:

.....

Worst. Cows. Ever. . . . . is my new favorite quote!

Hahahahaha!

It's a good point though... they ARE terrible cows!

I would say they are more like bi-pedal gazelles... that aren't as cute.  

[Zuleikha]

Quote

I think Cornwell's alive, but she fucking better be because I'm sick of them killing off strong women.

Yes, I've noticed that, too. It's like the writers are only comfortable putting women in command roles if the character is intended to die. I doubt it's conscious, but three is officially a trend. I found the camera work on Cornwell ambiguous, but IMDB doesn't list her for any future episodes. So I think she's truly dead. It's lazy writing and gross since there were certainly other ways the issues with Cornwell and Lorca could have been resolved, and that storyline also didn't need to exist in the first place. 

Saru's story was sad. I wish he could have stayed with the Pahvens like he wanted. I don't really understand why he couldn't, other than the character is considered a regular, core cast member.

 I was glad the bridge actors got lines, but I really wish we would get to know them. I find the whole thing with the bridge officers being basically featured extras frustrating. They seem interesting. Why not let us know them better?

Edited November 11, 2017 by Zuleikha

[CanadaPhil]

5 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

......but IMDB doesn't list her for any future episodes. So I think she's truly dead....

 

IMDB also happens to list Jason Isaacs for the full 15 episodes which we all know is incorrect.

And I am certain a lot of people are not going to like what it shows for Wilson Cruz (Dr. Culber)

IMDB is not always entirely accurate. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[paigow]

If Cornwell is alive...

• She is trapped in the "dishonored morgue", full of decomposing bodies
• Highly suspicious if anyone brings food & water INTO the morgue
• These bodies will likely be ejected into space for disposal
• Kol already suspects L'Relle of lying, finding Cornwell alive is confirmation

Edited November 11, 2017 by paigow

[John Potts]

See, that's why I like Capt Lorca. All business in war, brave but concerned for his ship and doesn't weep over the losses

So - they can hear the sound of in space, huh?

OK, seeking out new civilisations is all very well but can you afford to take the time off from the war!?

Totally expected it to turn out Saru was getting brainwashed.

How wimpy is the stun setting? Saru was shot three times and stayed on his feet!

Since L'Rell got basically nothing from the Admiral, why was she suddenly given the job of interrogator!?

So basically, a bunch of hippies sumon the Klingons!? We know Trek isn't a fan of hippies.

Does Michael really believe she will be going back to jail? If she's a war hero, I expect she will get her sentence shortened (if not forgiven completely).

On ‎06‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 6:57 AM, thuganomics85 said:

So, was L'Rell sincere about wanting to defect and killed Cornwell in order to not get caught or was she playing both sides all along?  Then again, the way they kept focusing on Cornwell's body makes me wonder if she's actually dead or not. 

I was wondering that, too, particularly when she offered to dispose of the body.

[AngelKitty]

On 11/7/2017 at 12:47 PM, CanadaPhil said:

"Let's try this again"...

"Hello, I'm Voq... Son of No One from House Nothing"....

"I dined on yer Step-Step-Mom during a pot luck Tuesday back at the Death Barge"....

"and I have to tell you she was yum-yumm-yummmy!"

Yeah, for me, if Ash is Voq, he must die.

[Tachi Rocinante]

This episode was meh.  Not sure Cornwell is alive. If Ash is Voq, why hasn't he quietly killed Burnham already?

John Wick 3 stole the episode title. It sounds awesome when Ian McShane recites it near the end.