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I found this statement more than a little galling:

Worth noting that Carl escaped with just an eyepatch while Denise died.

Has this person ever actually SEEN the show, or are they going off the Cliff's Notes? So please pardon me if I found this more than a little grating.

 

Um, one is a central character to the entire story and the future of humankind, and one is a side character to a side character?  Agreed that this person doesn't really watch this show.

Comic-Carl originally had a hole shot all the way through his skull, with daylight showing from the other side.  And yes, there was brain damage, resulting in some plot-convenient amnesia.  The TV writers consciously chose to let Carl off easy (and to give TV-Denise the fate of a different comic character).

 

Let him off easy?  Or do something in the realm of actual physical possibility?

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  And who chose to give Carl a glancing gunshot wound, and who chose to give Denise a brain-piercing crossbow bolt?  Isaac Newton?

 

  Your objection makes even less sense since, "if you've ever actually READ the comics" (to coin a phrase), you'd know that Comic-Carl originally had a hole shot all the way through his skull, with daylight showing from the other side.  And yes, there was brain damage, resulting in some plot-convenient amnesia.  The TV writers consciously chose to let Carl off easy (and to give TV-Denise the fate of a different comic character).

That's mixing levels of critique, though. Of course the writers decided to have Carl survive his wound and Denise die of hers, that's not in question. Of course there was the choice to have hers be much more damaging.

But comparing in-universe the two wounds and acting like there's great inconsistency in how they affected different characters makes very little sense, because they're two very different wounds. It's like complaining that Hershel survived his walker bite only losing a leg, but Dale died of his. Very different bites, very different damage, the only point in common was that a walker did it. 

The first level of critique is meta-textual, and valid; but if you try to make it textual, that criticism loses validity, because it actually ignores the text it purports to examine.

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Um, one is a central character to the entire story and the future of humankind, and one is a side character to a side character?  Agreed that this person doesn't really watch this show.

 

Let him off easy?  Or do something in the realm of actual physical possibility?

 

  But isn't "no-one is safe" the reason we shouldn't get attached to these characters?  And Carl's a nice young man and all, but in the long run, a doctor (not to mention a mental health professional) might be more "central to the future of humankind."  So what it boils down to is, Carl is more of a main character than Denise, so he's much safer.  Which is true and unsurprising, but not necessarily a good thing.

  On your other point:  While the comic suffered from an overzealous artist in it's original depictions of Carl's wound (which were later toned down), yes, the TV show *is* (so far) letting him off easy.  Comic-Carl was shot *through* the eye, causing some brain damage, and leaving a much larger and uglier wound. 

Edited by ACW
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That's mixing levels of critique, though. Of course the writers decided to have Carl survive his wound and Denise die of hers, that's not in question. Of course there was the choice to have hers be much more damaging.

But comparing in-universe the two wounds and acting like there's great inconsistency in how they affected different characters makes very little sense, because they're two very different wounds. It's like complaining that Hershel survived his walker bite only losing a leg, but Dale died of his. Very different bites, very different damage, the only point in common was that a walker did it. 

The first level of critique is meta-textual, and valid; but if you try to make it textual, that criticism loses validity, because it actually ignores the text it purports to examine.

 

  I  see what you['re saying, but I saw the article's implied criticism as meta-textual, not textual.  It wasn't saying "they had different results from equally-severe wounds," but rather "the writers chose to give two characters ironically-similar wounds, but only made one of them fatally severe".

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Well, Rick got his hand chopped off in the comics, and they didn't do that either.  Not because Rick is special, but because it's too problematic and limiting for filming.  If you could actually see daylight through Carl's head, he'd be dead.  A larger and uglier wound be a hassle, practically speaking.  I agree with @Caelicola, eyes being involved is beside the point.  Unless it's the Illuminati, amirite?  The nature of Denise's injury had a lot more to do with Daryl and his crossbow than any similarity to Carl.

 

Carl isn't just "more" of a main character, he and Rick are THE main characters.  Carl is the future of the entire original work.  I don't understand a gripe about how it's not a good thing that he's a safer character compared to a lesbian character, because he's a safer character than anyone of any persuasion.  It's only not a good thing if you don't want anyone to be a main character.  The story has to have a center.

 

Complaining about who dies on a show about death is just lost on me anyway, I'm afraid.   

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  I  see what you['re saying, but I saw the article's implied criticism as meta-textual, not textual.  It wasn't saying "they had different results from equally-severe wounds," but rather "the writers chose to give two characters ironically-similar wounds, but only made one of them fatally severe".

Fair enough, but if they're actually criticizing on a meta-textual level, that's way too glib an observation to have much critical weight, because at that point they'd have to consider a myriad things because they all contribute to the writing choices; like who the characters are, how they got to be injured, what they represent, and yeah, unfortunately, the role they play in the story and their respective importance in it. If you (that's an impersonal you, not YOU, POSTER ACW!!) want to critique a work going beyond the text, you have to consider every aspect of what motivates the choices beyond the text.

I just think the article would have been more successful without bringing Carl's eyepatch into it, because it only muddies the waters and makes readers instictively react by going "of course he survived, it was a different kind of wound, are you even watching the show?!", and then dismiss any valid point the article makes.

 

Edited because in my word vomit of pretension I managed to fuck up the grammar.

Edited by Caelicola
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  • The article initially acknowledges how the show's basic premise should not exclude ANY group from danger purely on the grounds of cultural sensitivity. The majority of the rest of the article, however, has a distinct "yeah, but still..." flavor to it.

 

That's a lot of these articles on a lot of shows lately, and they annoy me almost as much as the ones that take a stance that I find wildly off-base. The thesis on these sort of pieces ends up being little more than "Yeah But Still" and it's like - okay? Do you and your publication want a participation medal for chiming in with a lukewarm me too, or do you want to engage with the debate?

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I saw a cute interview with Chandler Riggs at the Salt Lake City Comic Con. Our Coral has grown up and he was just so adorable. He really loves working with the entire crew and cast but has a special place in his heart for Danei and loves Michonne. One of the questions was "Judith's father - Rick or Shane" and he laughed and said "Shane".

Danei was on Conan and she is such a beautiful lady, she was stunning in a white dress and they showed a picture of her during Fashion Week in NYC and she was with Bono at his wife's show. She said they invited her to dinner and since it was her birthday he sang Happy Birthday to her. You could tell she was so thrilled.

Edited by catcory
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Greg Nicotero on the finale and Negan's profanity:

 

You have a second version of this scene with Negan-like cursing, right?

 

We had to shoot two versions — we had to shoot the Blu-ray version, which had a lot of the swearing and a lot of Negan’s colorful language, and then we had to shoot the broadcast version. So when you get the DVD or the Blu-ray version, that will have the full Negan speech from the graphic novel.

 

I was wondering whether you were going to try and squeak part of that unrated version onto TV or not, and try and see if there was any wiggle room with AMC.

 

We’re still bound by our standards and practices. We had tried to get away with it when Rick was in the train car and he says, “They don’t know who they’re screwing with.” The options hurt the sequence. We didn’t want to take away from that moment. Even when I did my director’s cut I actually put the Blu-ray cut of the scene into my director’s cut because I thought it was so powerful that I wanted Kirkman and Gale and everyone to see what the sequence looked like with the momentum of Negan’s speech in there. I know Jeffrey and I both kind of preferred that version, it just felt better to be able to say swear words.

 

Jeffrey Dean Morgan in the Chicago Tribune:

 

How chilling was it to shoot the last scene?

 

It was a little bit tense. For me, it all happened very fast. I think I got the script two days before I shot it, and I only got that piece -- I only got Negan's stuff, so I didn't even get the full script. But I think for obvious reasons, the cast of the show was understandably agitated. They may know more than I did going in. Everything was very hush-hush, AMC and "The Walking Dead" are trying to keep everything so secretive, so I went in knowing my monologue, which was essentially taken from the graphic novel. I think agitated is a fair word -- it was a very emotional two nights, and I think you saw it on the actors' faces.

 

For me, it was about learning a monologue and trying to portray a character that I haven't gotten to play a whole lot of in my career. I was just trying to find that groove as Negan, I only had two days to do it and that's a hell of an introduction for somebody to just come in and do. It was very emotional, that's what I'll say. It was very emotional for the whole cast and a couple of them didn't make eye contact with me until the end of the second night and a couple of them, on the same note, embraced me immediately and were texting me after we'd filmed all night. But I'd say overall, people were emotional.

 

That is a hell of a scene to have to come on in, a giant swaggering monologue when everyone knows you are killing one of them.

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I just read a couple of interviews that Andy Lincoln has done in the last couple of days on the finale and they are very good. I also saw an interview that Danai did with a radio station, but it was done around February 10-12 and of course she was amazing, I just love to listen to her.

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I swear somewhere on this board a poster mentioned a Variety interview with Scott Gimple discussing/defending the finale, but I can't find the post. Here's the link to the interview, though:

 

http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/the-walking-dead-showrunner-interview-scott-gimple-season-6-finale-spoilers-1201745020/

 

While I still don't agree with their reasoning and am sure there's more than a little damage control at play here, I was softening up a bit as I read his responses. Yeah, maybe I'm a sucker for spin, but I'd like to believe it is more than just a business to the cast and crew. It's apparent to me that lot of love and dedication goes into creating this show, and the love and dedication of the fan base is a large part of what fuels it.

 

But then he makes the parent/tantrum-throwing toddler analogy. Oh, Gimple. [facepalm]

 

I get it, this is their baby and of course they aren't going to say, "Yeah, we really fucked up here." I also get that some, maybe even a lot, of the backlash could be characterized in the way he describes.

 

But from what I have seen, the comments here are much more representative of overall fan response to the finale. There is disappointment and even anger, yes, but the criticisms I've read are largely reasoned and considered. Labeling disgruntled viewers in such a manner just pours salt on the wound and gets people even more worked up. And it's not exactly congruent with his insistence earlier in the interview about how much they respect their fans.

 

I'm not calling for his head. I'm largely satisfied with Gimple's tenure as showrunner, and he's written what, IMO, are some of the series' finest episodes. It's natural and human to feel defensive when your work is criticized, doubly so when it's so high profile. But for fuck's sake, don't add fuel to the fire by calling your fans a bunch of crybabies. You can think it all you want, but another thing parents teach their children (or should be) is some thoughts are best kept to yourself.

Edited by Sighed I
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(edited)

But from what I have seen, the comments here are much more representative of overall fan response to the finale. There is disappointment and even anger, yes, but the criticisms I've read are largely reasoned and considered. Labeling disgruntled viewers in such a manner just pours salt on the wound and gets people even more worked up. And it's not exactly congruent with his insistence earlier in the interview about how much they respect their fans.

 

I'm not calling for his head. I'm largely satisfied with Gimple's tenure as showrunner, and he's written what, IMO, are some of the series' finest episodes. It's natural and human to feel defensive when your work is criticized, doubly so when it's so high profile. But for fuck's sake, don't add fuel to the fire by calling your fans a bunch of crybabies. You can think it all you want, but another thing parents teach their children (or should be) is some thoughts are best kept to yourself.

 

I think the worst often gets focus, because the worst screams the loudest. And that's Twitter, which is a shithole. A lot of people personally blame him and other people running the show and make it about him (which is why I don't support any "FireGimple" stuff - it's just a distraction and if anything would make AMC do even more drastic things to the show - it also seems naive to me, like the article I read that claimed if Gimple and Kirkman were fired [good luck doing that with Kirkman] the show would magically improve). This has gone on for a while - it was bad when Beth died, and I get the feeling a lot surrounding the Beth/Daryl/Carol stuff and Beth herself hardened people at the show.

 

Back to this finale, I saw someone who braggingly posted a collection of various tweets people had sent to Gimple or in the fire hashtag when he was on Talking Dead - things like "That's a nice tie - did your mother pick it out?" (I imagine there was far less harmless stuff I was lucky enough not to see) And while I'm sure that made their sides split, I can't think of a faster way for a producer to write a fan complaint off. 

Edited by Pete Martell
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(edited)

I think the worst often gets focus, because the worst screams the loudest. And that's Twitter, which is a shithole. A lot of people personally blame him and other people running the show and make it about him (which is why I don't support any "FireGimple" stuff - it's just a distraction and if anything would make AMC do even more drastic things to the show - it also seems naive to me, like the article I read that claimed if Gimple and Kirkman were fired [good luck doing that with Kirkman] the show would magically improve). This has gone on for a while - it was bad when Beth died, and I get the feeling a lot surrounding the Beth/Daryl/Carol stuff and Beth herself hardened people at the show.

 

Back to this finale, I saw someone who braggingly posted a collection of various tweets people had sent to Gimple or in the fire hashtag when he was on Talking Dead - things like "That's a nice tie - did your mother pick it out?" (I imagine there was far less harmless stuff I was lucky enough not to see) And while I'm sure that made their sides split, I can't think of a faster way for a producer to write a fan complaint off. 

Oh, that's not good. Clearly I'm missing a decent chunk of what's going on in the fandom, because I avoid Twitter like the plague. IMO it represents one of the worst things about the internet, largely because it reduces everything into bite-sized chunks for easier consumption. It doesn't require people to think or offer anything substantive, and it (along with Facebook) feeds far too easily into the mob mentality you describe.

 

I still think Scott could have chosen his words more carefully, especially considering the response, but it's certainly much more understandable. I'm sorry they're being subjected to that level of abuse; nobody deserves that.

 

Edited to add: I agree people acting in the ways you describe does make it a lot easier for producers to write off fan complaints. A perfect illustration of constructive vs. destructive criticism. You've given me a lot to think about; thanks. :)

Edited by Sighed I
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(edited)

Season 6 finale ratings are in: 6.9 in the key 18-49 demo. Highest rated episode for the season although a bit down from last season's finale. AMC has to be pleased.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2016/04/05/sunday-cable-ratings-april-3-2016-walking-dead-finale/

I still think Scott could have chosen his words more carefully, especially considering the response, but it's certainly much more understandable. I'm sorry they're being subjected to that level of abuse; nobody deserves that.

Too many people don't have perspective over tv shows. They see the actors and writers on tv and project a relationship that takes turns every thing they don't like about the show into a personal insult that must be returned. Of course, this just reinforces the actors and writers' real secret opinions that most of the fans, if not all are wackjobs.

Edited by SimoneS
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(edited)

I still think Scott could have chosen his words more carefully, especially considering the response, but it's certainly much more understandable. I'm sorry they're being subjected to that level of abuse; nobody deserves that.

 

Edited to add: I agree people acting in the ways you describe does make it a lot easier for producers to write off fan complaints. A perfect illustration of constructive vs. destructive criticism. You've given me a lot to think about; thanks. :)

 

Oh I totally agree with you. I do think he could have been more diplomatic. I think Andrew Lincoln's response to the criticism was much better and more respectful. Saying fans are throwing "tantrums" is never a good look. I just cut him some slack (and I'm a hypocrite because there are showrunners I don't cut slack) because this fandom is so high-intensity, with no real filter, and if any of the stuff I see (claims that he and Nicotero and Kirkman, etc. are racist, hate women, anti-gay, want to hurt abuse victims, among other things) is something they see on a consistent basis, then I think that it must wear down any reserves of good will. But he shouldn't have said that, because there are people who have reasonable complaints and reasonably feel jerked around for a payoff that will likely never be worth the wait.

Edited by Pete Martell
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Season 6 finale ratings are in: 6.9 in the key 18-49 demo. Highest rated episode for the season although a bit down from last season's finale. AMC has to be pleased.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2016/04/05/sunday-cable-ratings-april-3-2016-walking-dead-finale/

Too many people don't have perspective over tv shows. They see the actors and writers on tv and project a relationship that takes turns every thing they don't like about the show into a personal insult that must be returned. Of course, this just reinforces the actors and writers' real secret opinions that most of the fans, if not all are wackjobs.

 

I agree. As a long-time Star Trek fan, I recognize and identify with a certain, shall we say, quirkiness to fandom. ;) But it seems like aspects of it has grown into this twisted monster in the Internet Age. Maybe it's because in the past if you were dissatisfied all you could do was complain to your friends, write a letter or turn the channel. Now we have instant access to thousands of others of like mind, and in a great many cases, the players themselves, creating a false sense of intimacy. Unfortunately, the power of social media is such that actors, producers, etc., have virtually no choice but to put themselves out there.

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(edited)

I agree. As a long-time Star Trek fan, I recognize and identify with a certain, shall we say, quirkiness to fandom. ;)

Fellow Star Trek fan here! I think that we are not close to being as bad as the rabid TWD fans. Or do you think that I am wearing rose color glasses?

Edited by SimoneS
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Fellow Star Trek fan here! I think that we are not close to being as bad as the rabid TWD fans. Or do you think that I am wearing rose color glasses?

Live long and prosper!

 

Of course we're not as bad as those fans! Those fuckers are unhinged. We're just mildly obsessed. LOL

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(edited)

Okay, Andy is trying too hard with this Negan story. I get they are building Negan up as the baddest ever and the biggest threat that Rick and his people have ever faced, but we all know that they will defeat him by the end of next season or the season after so give it a rest.

And why is Andy acting as if listening to Morgan would have brought about a different result or change anything? It was Negan's men who confronted Daryl, Sasha, and Abraham on the road. They were going to kill one of them, take everything they had, and make them take them to Alexandria. Does this mean if Daryl had let them kill one of them and the lead them into Alexandria to take everything that they had, all would have been well? Come on now.

Edited by SimoneS
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Some of the reviews I read regarding Carol make me see red...not people who say that the story was poorly told or didn't have enough buildup, but the people who are resolute in the idea that if Carol is not a slaughterhouse in an apron, she is weak and pathetic and has been ruined. Or that they are taking away everything that made her popular. Carol became popular in season 2, when she was allowed moments of weakness and helplessness along with strength. The writing wasn't always the best, but it felt authentic. It felt human. And Carol has always been that way, but last season I felt like it was starting to get lost in the memes and "moments" (the butcher knife stuff with Pete in particular felt like a meme plastered onscreen). I don't think the writing has been the best, by any means, but I think it has, for the most part, worked in showing her strength as well as her demons. I know some fans feel Morgan abused her or destroyed her, but to me that is making Carol far more of a victim than the show has.

 

These reviews are just reinforcing exactly why the story had to be told in the first place. That awful TV Guide reviewer I try to avoid (I ended up seeing reviews of theirs plastered elsewhere) said the show was "yanking on Carol's collar." So is Carol a dog now? Really? Fuck that shit.  

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(edited)

I've had the same reaction.  A feminist site I follow has been ragging on Carol for weeks for pretty much the same thing.  Not about the purported unevenness of the storytelling or lack of clear motivation (which I actually do see, but that's probably another subject for another board) but because she's suddenly not the most badass to ever badass anymore.  As long as she's setting everything on fire and the smartest, sneakiest girl in the room she's a feminist icon.  The moment she has tears to shed over the things she's done and is taking stock of the kind of person she's afraid that's making her though, she's ruined as a character.  Because none of the men on this show have ever dissolved into blubbering messes, been suicidal, took ghost phone calls, or screamed or ranted crazy in the street.  I HATED the threatening the much larger Pete with a knife thing too and thought it was beyond stupid writing for a character who works to stay under the radar. Look, I loved JSS as much as anybody because it showed again how resourceful and quick thinking and fast on her feet she was, but I did a full body cringe the next day when the internet was full of Assassin's Creed Carol memes that apparently completely missed the point of the ending when she was smoking and fighting back tears at what it had cost her.  

 

Some of the storytelling on this arc has been kind of clumsy, but you're right that without it she was in danger of becoming that meme rather than one of the best fleshed out characters on the canvas.  It's funny to me that so many of the reviews can get it right about why the cilffhanger was such a terrible failure but can be so off about this.

Edited by nodorothyparker
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I just saw the cover of a magazine call "The Rake" and Andrew Lincoln is on the cover and has some photos and interview, but I don't know how to bring it over here. But all I can say is that Rick Grimes sure cleans up pretty, hubba, hubba!!!

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I just saw the cover of a magazine call "The Rake" and Andrew Lincoln is on the cover and has some photos and interview, but I don't know how to bring it over here. But all I can say is that Rick Grimes sure cleans up pretty, hubba, hubba!!!

 

Cfbvn6fXIAAoLTx.jpg

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And why is Andy acting as if listening to Morgan would have brought about a different result or change anything? It was Negan's men who confronted Daryl, Sasha, and Abraham on the road. They were going to kill one of them, take everything they had, and make them take them to Alexandria. Does this mean if Daryl had let them kill one of them and the lead them into Alexandria to take everything that they had, all would have been well? Come on now.

 

Seriously.  You meet a gang of Negans they introduce themselves by saying we are taking everything you have and one of you must die.  Granted Rick made a huge tactical mistake by bragging about killing the Negans to the 3rd group of Negans they have encountered since CDB Commando was unleashed, but it was a smart move on his part to hit them first.

 

And where was that army we saw on Sunday when the Neegans and CDB were holding hostages? The red head had enough time to call in the army.  Maybe they still sleeping off their high.

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(edited)

Andy is very yummy in those photos.
 

Seriously.  You meet a gang of Negans they introduce themselves by saying we are taking everything you have and one of you must die.  Granted Rick made a huge tactical mistake by bragging about killing the Negans to the 3rd group of Negans they have encountered since CDB Commando was unleashed, but it was a smart move on his part to hit them first.
 
And where was that army we saw on Sunday when the Neegans and CDB were holding hostages? The red head had enough time to call in the army.  Maybe they still sleeping off their high.

 

Ha. The bold cracked me up. Although it is tragic when I think that Michonne's boyfriend was high when their son died. The element of surprise one of the key elements of military strategy. Unfortunately, it doesn't always succeed. However, Rick has reduced the number of Negan's men. They now just have to find a way to kill tons more.

Edited by SimoneS
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Aw, that was a good interview. I wasn't familiar with Chris until TTD; I pretty much stopped watching MTV once they stopped focusing on music and went heavy on the reality programming (which I realize dates me ;). As a fellow nerd, I'm glad he's having success celebrating that part of himself. Plus I finally understand why the thread was named what it is. ;)

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Came across this link on TSDF. It would be nice if we saw a little more. Hopefully season 7 will delve into the sexual politics of the ZA. Not holding my breath though.

https://www.inverse.com/article/11387-the-walking-dead-doesn-t-get-sex-because-it-fetishizes-apocalyptic-love

 

I always complain about the lack of sex on TWD. The article is on point to some degree albeit a bit dated now. Now that Rick's people have settled in Alexandria, we are seeing more realistic relationship drama despite the complaints. Abraham fell in love with Sasha and dumped Rosita. Rosita is having casual sex with Spencer, same with Carol and Tobin. Tara and Denise were together. About Rick, from his conversations with Shane he is a one woman man so Jessie was likely his last dabble with a woman other than Michonne until one of them is no longer on the show.

Edited by SimoneS
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Alicia Witt added (to Twitter) a few interesting pictures from Walker Stalker Con (I love the ones with the warped faces), or someone added them for her --

 

https://twitter.com/search?f=images&vertical=default&q=alicia%20witt&src=typd

 

Jessie even made it into one of the photos.   Is Michael Cudlitz's hair a lighter, more blondish color or is it just the lighting in the photos?

 

Edited to add:  The picture that Alexandra Breckenridge (Jessie) was in seems to have gone missing, from what I can tell, but there are a couple of new photos that have been added in.

Edited by Sherry67
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I hope that Shiva part is not true. I don't like when people say "jump the shark," but I seriously think that might be a "jump the shark" moment for TWD. It is way too ridiculous even for a show about zombies.

I read this somewhere else and was disappointed. I was hoping they'd leave that out. Especially if they have to do CGI or whatever. That would be bad.

 

What only 12, I could probably find several thousand HAHA!!!!

But they were a really good 12.  :)

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Tyler James Williams stopped by Entertainment Weekly radio and spoke about the finale:

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/04/18/walking-dead-tyler-james-williams-negan-finale

 

He also said something that some people here have been telling us:

 

“We all still speak and they kind of keep me up to date and stuff on what’s going on and all of that. … You have to understand [showrunner Scott M. Gimple] knows everything seasons and seasons out, so people knew, but we can’t say anything. No one can say anything. So it’s actually better to say that we don’t know.”

 

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Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but all I can think is that the letter is intended to get us talking about the show at a point when most of us have moved on.  It's provocative enough to work, so...good for them.

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