S13.E02: The Rising Son

[MysteryGuest]

Well, they just hand-waved his soullessness away with the "what would Mr. Rogers do" line.  I agree that we were to assume that Donatello was killed by Amara, but they needed an angel/demon tracking device for this episode, so conveniently brought him back.  I liked the character, but he really was just a plot device in this episode.  Is he slated to be in any more, going forward?

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I know this is wandering off topic, but why would losing your soul make you no longer require sleep?  I know Sam didn't sleep while soulless, but it never really made sense to me.  He was still human and his physical body would still require rest.  I don't remember any other soulless characters going without sleep, but maybe I didn't pay attention closely enough.  Just one more happy WTF of the Supernatural world.

I'm about finished with my dissertation on soullessness :) and am trying to cut it down to something readable.  But this part does have me stumped.  

Why soulless people don’t sleep, I haven’t a clue.  Not even going to guess, except that they needed something that was specific to  prove that Sam was different, as opposed to just subjective opinions about how they expected him to be.  I think it was never mentioned again with anyone else because it wasn’t necessary to the story.   (That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that we don't know about it.)  But maybe they do sleep, just not as frequently as others (they store it up for months or years and then hibernate! :) )  Or maybe, as has been said over and over, soullessness affects everyone differently.

The rest of my theories I'll put in the All Seasons thread, hopefully soon (and then I'll be hiding in the woods till I think it's safe to come out again...)

[Aeryn13]

Bucklemming pays so little attention to any kind of continuity - and are pretty full of themselves when speaking about their "writing - Donatello could show up and be played by Peter Dinklage in a future episode (not that this show could in any way, shape or form get Peter Dinklage) and it wouldn`t be addressed.     

[SueB]

Regardless of whether or not Dean was 'hallucinating' - if he had a wheel jerk moment on the road (trying to avoid invisible sheep or just started to drift), that would have alerted Sam and likely put a dose of adrenaline into Dean's system.  In which case, making it to the next hotel (likely less than 20 miles) is not a big deal but warranted.  

But I agree, Dean was just ON EDGE.  If he really felt it was essential to rush Jack back to the bunker, he would have let Sam drive.  

On Jack sleeping in Donatello's room, I don't think it was a huge leap.  The kid survived an angel-blade to the heart. Who exactly could hurt him?  If anything, they risked Donatello because he would provide no real resistance.  So they put the kid behind warded doors with a 'safe' guardian and slept.  Now if Donatello doesn't sleep it makes even MORE sense to put him in the room with Jack.  And really, Jack was terrified with Dean. Dean was not in a good place - like, at all.  Sam also needed to be able to just rest.  If Sam had been alone in the other room with Jack, would Dean have really rested?  I guess I'd say the extenuating circumstances make the decision less of a 'jarring' mistake IMO but a reasonable risk.  

The real mistake that was made was Donatello going out for breakfast and not telling the boys.  He left Jack alone.  He probably thought he was being Mr. Rodgers nice and not thinking that Jack could get into trouble by himself. Again, warded room, but this time all that was needed was a shapeshifted Asmodeus to see Donatello leave, change into Donatello!Asmodeus and knock on the door and tell Jack to follow him. His plausible story: As a prophet he may be able to "guide" Jack in learning about his abilities.  There was no other car by the hellgate. Suggests that they teleported there.  Maybe Donatello!Asmodeus told him prophets could teleport and he wanted to show Jack something while the boys were still sleeping. Boom -- Asmodeus (who does come with the teleporting jetpack) took them both there.  Or he told Jack to reach out and "feel" the power nearby (the Hellgate) and try to 'go' to it.  And zap, there they were. 

The boys expected the warding to keep out angels and demons and didn't think humans were a threat.  The shapeshifting abilities of Asmodeus were not something the boys should reasonably expect.  I first wondered if Asmodeus just possessed a shapeshifter.  In which case, why didn't some other demon think of that before.  But there was a demon smoke effect, suggesting Asmodeus has 'shapeshifting' as an ability.  "Asmodeus has his hobbies", said Ramiel, Prince of Hell.  And clearly Asmodeus is ambitious.  I could see learning spells or skills, expanding his abilities, as part of his personality.  I hope they play on that ability again, give us some backstory.  

Bottom line: IMO, going to a motel - normal plot development. Letting Jack stay with Donatello, a bit more iffy although more plausible if Donatello doesn't sleep. I'll cut the boys some slack because they had already terrified Jack and they themselves were in a bad headspace. Donatello!Asmodeus simply waiting for Donatello to leave the room and then convincing Jack to go with him? Normal plot development. 

[Hanahope]

I know soullessness can affect people in different ways, but just like that one kid, won't he eventually realize that he doesn't care about what's good or wrong, and then he'll end up doing something bad because its easy.

I completely understand why Dean feels the way he does about Jack, just like Sam's feelings are very much in his nature too (and I love that Sam can still see the good in "monsters").  Since apparently it'll take another Amara-level event to kill Jack, there's gotta be more to the story than just the 'he'll eventually go evil and have to be killed' plot line.  I think it would be great if he is somehow able to take Chuck's place, but maybe a bit more hands on.

Why do the demons continue to hang out in the old asylum?  What's wrong with hell???? ;D

Why did the princes of Hell let Crowley take control in the first place?  Or alternatively, why bother taking over now?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

I know soullessness can affect people in different ways, but just like that one kid, won't he eventually realize that he doesn't care about what's good or wrong, and then he'll end up doing something bad because its easy.

I completely understand why Dean feels the way he does about Jack, just like Sam's feelings are very much in his nature too (and I love that Sam can still see the good in "monsters").  Since apparently it'll take another Amara-level event to kill Jack, there's gotta be more to the story than just the 'he'll eventually go evil and have to be killed' plot line.  I think it would be great if he is somehow able to take Chuck's place, but maybe a bit more hands on.

Why do the demons continue to hang out in the old asylum?  What's wrong with hell???? ;D

Why did the princes of Hell let Crowley take control in the first place?  Or alternatively, why bother taking over now?

I believe Ramiel addressed this in Stuck in the Middle With You, but it seemed pretty lame.

Quote

Hell needs a new king. Crowley offers the throne to Ramiel. Ramiel refuses the Kingdom of Hell and gives it to Crowley. His only condition is that he and his kin are left in peace.

I am still a little baffled by the reveal (?) of soullessness being likened to your appendix. The idea that it affects people differently and is a matter of choosing how to act really doesn't reflect kindly on Soulless Sam.

[DittyDotDot]

6 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Why do the demons continue to hang out in the old asylum?  What's wrong with hell???? ;D

::snort:: Well, it's Hell!! ;)

No, seriously, I have not idea why they hung out there with Crowley to begin with, so I have no idea why they're still hanging there now too. You'd think demons would be able to get better digs... .

6 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Why did the princes of Hell let Crowley take control in the first place?  Or alternatively, why bother taking over now?

It seems like none of them wanted control over Hell--which, I don't know why anyone would, seems like a whole helluva lot of work and headache and very little fun comes with it--and I'm not convinced Asemodeus does either. I think he might be taking a page out of Crowley's book and grabbing power now that Luci is gone and there are no other powerful demons to challenge him.

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

No, seriously, I have not idea why they hung out there with Crowley to begin with, so I have no idea why they're still hanging there now too. You'd think demons would be able to get better digs... .

But, we're looking at this from a human point of view.  Demons may have started out as human, but they've been corrupted.  So, we have no idea what they find comfortable.  Maybe they like drafty, big places, because it's not hot like Hell.  And, maybe they like the spaciousness of it all.  So, OK, maybe Windsor Castle would be better by both those standards, but maybe they have other things on their dream checklist.  Like an abandoned asylum may have lost of ghost energy, or evil emanating from it from all the crap that used to happen at those kinds of places.

[Pondlass1]

Thanks for this @Katy M.  Your notion makes sense.  It always irritated me that demons hung out in that cold dank place wearing suits - why weren't they in the fires of hell stirring cauldrons?  But  they started out as humans so they'd tend to gravitate towards that realm maybe, and the place would be thick with  evil I guess.  May head canon also tells me that demons are weaker now because they've been topside for so long.  At the beginning they could merely wave a finger and stick S&D to the wall.  Now it's a fist fight, then the knife.

[Katy M]

34 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

May head canon also tells me that demons are weaker now because they've been topside for so long.  At the beginning they could merely wave a finger and stick S&D to the wall.  Now it's a fist fight, then the knife.

Well, at least you came up with a reason for the ridiculousness that are demons.  But, you'd think they would periodically go down to Hell to charge up then.  And, here's a question.  Are there any demons actually in Hell anymore?  One would think there would have to be because someone has to torture the newbies.  Demons (and angels) on this show make my head hurt.  Can we get rid of them, or just have them pop up once in a while. 

[Pondlass1]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Demons (and angels) on this show make my head hurt.  Can we get rid of them

I'd enjoy a season without angels and demons.  (Can anyone tell the difference any more?).  

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

But, we're looking at this from a human point of view.  Demons may have started out as human, but they've been corrupted.  So, we have no idea what they find comfortable.  Maybe they like drafty, big places, because it's not hot like Hell.  And, maybe they like the spaciousness of it all.  So, OK, maybe Windsor Castle would be better by both those standards, but maybe they have other things on their dream checklist.  Like an abandoned asylum may have lost of ghost energy, or evil emanating from it from all the crap that used to happen at those kinds of places.

Even though I found it ridiculously overly literal, I do actually get why Crowley set up operations topside instead of in Hell. But, considering Crowley's like of the finer things, I'd think he'd have chosen something less grungy. I can buy there is a portal to Hell there or something like that, though. I do think it's silly that, without Crowley, those demons didn't take off to be demonic of their own accord. I mean, they aren't angels who need someone to tell them what to do... .

50 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Thanks for this @Katy M.  Your notion makes sense.  It always irritated me that demons hung out in that cold dank place wearing suits - why weren't they in the fires of hell stirring cauldrons?  But  they started out as humans so they'd tend to gravitate towards that realm maybe, and the place would be thick with  evil I guess.  May head canon also tells me that demons are weaker now because they've been topside for so long.  At the beginning they could merely wave a finger and stick S&D to the wall.  Now it's a fist fight, then the knife.

The demons who could flick the boys around a room were old and powerful. But, they're dead now and the new ones just don't realize how much fun it is play with their toys before they start smashing them. ;)

[catrox14]

Wasn't the reason Ruby was topside is that demons wanted out of Hell? Like it was no better for demons than human souls really. Demons would be tortured by Lucifer and Alastair if they didn't side with whoever was in charge. If they could crawl out themselves they could take a vessel and wear it to avoid going back to the Pit. 

It seemed to me when Crowley took over Hell, it was a merit system for the demons to get out of pit and up to Crowley's lair. And then some probably left to be free range. I also thought it had to do with the war between Crowley and Abaddon. That it was better with Crowley as long as you earned your keep.
So to me the choice between the disused Asylum was better than being in Hell.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It seemed to me when Crowley took over Hell, it was a merit system for the demons to get out of pit and up to Crowley's lair. And then some probably left to be free range. I also thought it had to do with the war between Crowley and Abaddon. That it was better with Crowley as long as you earned your keep.
So to me the choice between the disused Asylum was better than being in Hell.

With Crowley it was either the asylum or Hell, but without Crowley, they could've taken off to points unknown and there would've been no one to stop them. But instead, they hung around waiting for someone to tell them what to do...which, it what angels do, not demons, IMO.

Edited November 2, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

Moved response to All episode.s

Edited November 2, 2017 by Katy M

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

With Crowley it was either the asylum or Hell, but without Crowley, they could've taken off to points unknown and there would've been no one to stop them. But instead, they hung around waiting for someone to tell them what to do...which, it what angels do, not demons, IMO.

 

Moving my thoughts to All Episodes thread.

 ETA: I think Asmodeus may bring back the torture of all demons to make them worship him like he worships Lucifer. He seems to love Lucifer and calls him his master so I can see him wanting to do that hence "Make Hell Great Again". He wants it to not be a nice place, IMO.

Edited November 2, 2017 by catrox14

[takalotti]

Instead of ...

 

S: Dean, "the problem" might be our only shot at saving Mom.

D: Mom's gone.

 

... I wish it had gone more like ...

 

S: Dean, "the problem" might be our only shot at saving Mom.

 

D: Okay, let’s say I’m wrong and Mom isn’t already dead. Again. Let’s say there is a Mom to save. What's your solution?

 

S: Jack opened the door once, maybe he can do it again.

 

D: You mean the door that we closed? To keep Lucifer locked away from our world? To keep Lucifer from getting anywhere near his son? Mom sacrificed herself to lock Lucifer away so that we'd be safe. Even if he’s torturing her over there, how happy do you think she’s gonna be if we throw away that sacrifice and give Lucifer a chance to end us and all humanity? You think the kid isn’t evil. Great. How long do you think he’ll stay not evil with Lucifer manipulating him?

 

When Jack was chowing into that burger, I was bracing myself for a "This makes me very happy."

 

So based on Jack's "This book; it mentions my father. Not Castiel, but Lucifer" comment, it would appear that Dean has been told that Jack considers Cas at least one of his fathers. I thought that fact would have meant at least something to Dean, but I guess not. 

 

I’m interested in Jack's reaction to his flash of Lucifer. He seemed disturbed by it, which would be a good thing, right?

 

And I’m curious how they explained the disappearing tattoo to the artist. Unless he didn’t see and they just quickly put Jack's shirt back on and pretended nothing weird happened.

 

I thought the small exchange when the real Donatello came to their room in the morning was weirdly weak when it came to "revealing" that the other Donatello must have been someone/something else. How is saying "I want to talk to you about Jack" so suspicious/confusing? I mean, they could have talked, Donatello could have gone back to the room where Jack was, and then come back with something new to talk about. Not that weird. Why not, "Oh good, you’re up"? Or Sam first saying, "What brings you back?" and Donatello having a Huh? reaction.

 

Good thing Donatello can follow Jack's energy trail. Are they gonna have to call him up every time Jack runs away from home?

 

And it was super weird that Sam and Dean just stopped in the hallway when they saw Donatello being roughed up. What? Sure, Dean throwing the blade (a la Cas, thanks to whoever shared those overlaid gifs) was cool, but that doesn’t make the hallway stopping make sense. 

 

At some point the boys need to have a conversation with Jack about trust and whether or not he should do what someone asks of him. And they’ll need to include themselves in that equation. They should point out that he shouldn't trust even them, that for all Jack knows they might want him to do something bad. And if he does come to trust them, he still has to be wary because like Asmodeus and Donatello, someone could come around looking like Sam or Dean just to take advantage of that trust. And they need to teach him how to dig deeper to find out if something is a good idea or a bad idea no matter who suggests it.

 

I feel like Dean wants to have it both ways with Jack. When Jack throws a body against a wall, it’s "See, he wants to hurt people." But when he defends Dean, Sam and Donatello from a Prince of Hell, we get "It’s just a reflex." I can kind of bring myself to a middle ground where Dean's point is just that Jack's lashing out is unpredictable, and unpredictable mega-power is dangerous. But I wish he’d see that Jack can learn to manage his reflexes. He got through the whole rest of the tattoo without blasting the artist, after all.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, takalotti said:

Instead of ...

 

S: Dean, "the problem" might be our only shot at saving Mom.

D: Mom's gone.

 

... I wish it had gone more like ...

 

S: Dean, "the problem" might be our only shot at saving Mom.

 

D: Okay, let’s say I’m wrong and Mom isn’t already dead. Again. Let’s say there is a Mom to save. What's your solution?

 

S: Jack opened the door once, maybe he can do it again.

 

D: You mean the door that we closed? To keep Lucifer locked away from our world? To keep Lucifer from getting anywhere near his son? Mom sacrificed herself to lock Lucifer away so that we'd be safe. Even if he’s torturing her over there, how happy do you think she’s gonna be if we throw away that sacrifice and give Lucifer a chance to end us and all humanity? You think the kid isn’t evil. Great. How long do you think he’ll stay not evil with Lucifer manipulating him?

 

When Jack was chowing into that burger, I was bracing myself for a "This makes me very happy."

 

So based on Jack's "This book; it mentions my father. Not Castiel, but Lucifer" comment, it would appear that Dean has been told that Jack considers Cas at least one of his fathers. I thought that fact would have meant at least something to Dean, but I guess not. 

 

I’m interested in Jack's reaction to his flash of Lucifer. He seemed disturbed by it, which would be a good thing, right?

 

And I’m curious how they explained the disappearing tattoo to the artist. Unless he didn’t see and they just quickly put Jack's shirt back on and pretended nothing weird happened.

 

I thought the small exchange when the real Donatello came to their room in the morning was weirdly weak when it came to "revealing" that the other Donatello must have been someone/something else. How is saying "I want to talk to you about Jack" so suspicious/confusing? I mean, they could have talked, Donatello could have gone back to the room where Jack was, and then come back with something new to talk about. Not that weird. Why not, "Oh good, you’re up"? Or Sam first saying, "What brings you back?" and Donatello having a Huh? reaction.

 

Good thing Donatello can follow Jack's energy trail. Are they gonna have to call him up every time Jack runs away from home?

 

And it was super weird that Sam and Dean just stopped in the hallway when they saw Donatello being roughed up. What? Sure, Dean throwing the blade (a la Cas, thanks to whoever shared those overlaid gifs) was cool, but that doesn’t make the hallway stopping make sense. 

 

At some point the boys need to have a conversation with Jack about trust and whether or not he should do what someone asks of him. And they’ll need to include themselves in that equation. They should point out that he shouldn't trust even them, that for all Jack knows they might want him to do something bad. And if he does come to trust them, he still has to be wary because like Asmodeus and Donatello, someone could come around looking like Sam or Dean just to take advantage of that trust. And they need to teach him how to dig deeper to find out if something is a good idea or a bad idea no matter who suggests it.

 

I feel like Dean wants to have it both ways with Jack. When Jack throws a body against a wall, it’s "See, he wants to hurt people." But when he defends Dean, Sam and Donatello from a Prince of Hell, we get "It’s just a reflex." I can kind of bring myself to a middle ground where Dean's point is just that Jack's lashing out is unpredictable, and unpredictable mega-power is dangerous. But I wish he’d see that Jack can learn to manage his reflexes. He got through the whole rest of the tattoo without blasting the artist, after all.

To me, Dean's evolution on Jack went like this

1) Shoot on sight because monster and out of anger and sudden grief at Cas' death. , which Sam stopped him

2) Jack was still not trusted by Dean but he was willing to take him back to the bunker to make sure the world was safe from him IMO.

3) Sam kept repeating that Jack could help them which might have wormed into Dean's mind and allowed Dean to say, okay he saved us but he didn't really intend to save us. It was a reflex. I

I think Dean is between a rock and a hard place on Jack. JMHO His hunter instincts are telling him this is bad but wanting to trust Sam that it won't go sideways.

[KSenniaV]

I enjoyed this episode much better than the last one! Asmodaeus isn't Crowley, but I like him. I like that he's got a southern accent. He reminds me of Mark Twain. The prophet guy was okay, not annoying, at least. I enjoyed Jack trying to figure out who he is and trying to deal with how much Dean fears him. It was adorable the way he kept copying everything Dean did, and the way he enjoyed his cheeseburger. I actually kinda felt like he should have gone with Asmodaeus cos he'd prolly be safer. Being with the Winchester's is the most unsafe place to be in the entire SPN universe. Sam had to save Dean again, but then Dean threw a sick knife and actually took out an angel. Good job, Dean!!!!! 

[The Companion]

On 10/19/2017 at 8:17 PM, Jeddah said:

Jack is doing a good job of making me feel bad for him. He’s so lost and confused. I’m curious about where this storyline goes.

. . .

I don’t know whose fake Southern accent annoys me more; Benny or Asmodeus.

I am shocked to sort of like Jack.

And, PSA to all shows. If the actor can't do a Southern accent, it's fine to just drop the accent. This one was painful (though I think that Styne's cajun accent wins worst accent ever).

On 10/19/2017 at 8:26 PM, MysteryGuest said:

.

What I am sick to death of are the scenes in Hell.  At least with Crowley we had one character we liked down there, but now that he's gone we're left with nothing but the new Colonel Sanders and a bunch of whiny demons. So they ran out of plot lines for Mark S., and their solution is to just replace him with another actor and shoot the same boring scenes?  Ok.

 

Colon-hell Sanders is painful to watch and uninteresting. Also, way to have him literally kill every female demon in the room. 🙄

 

On 10/19/2017 at 8:35 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm digging Jack. I loved that he was trying to emulate Dean. Not sure if it was a reaction to Dean's dislike (I'll act like him so he'll like me better) some odd left over connection to Castiel or simply because he viewed Dean as the leader or Alpha. Whatever it was it amused me, especially because Sam and Dean caught on pretty quick.

I loved Jack trying to be like Dean.

On 10/19/2017 at 9:15 PM, Katy M said:

 

If they have to be in the AU where a Bobby exists, the least we can do is get Bobby onscreen. 

Right? Hey, it's Bobby and he knows AUMary. Let's have him disappear and never return. 😥

 

On 10/20/2017 at 12:05 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

Comprehending and expressing can be two different things, though. I'm remembering back to when Dean was grieving John. It came out as anger then also. Dean understood that he was grieving, but that still didn't stop things from coming out as anger and in that case violence against his Baby.

When my sister and I were little, my Grampa had a "wires crossed" type reaction in a similar vein. If something happened where one of us got hurt or was in some sort of danger of injury, he'd be afraid for us... but it would come out as yelling. As you can imagine, that sometimes made the situation worse, because then even if we hadn't gotten hurt from say a tumble, Grampa yelling might start the waterworks anyway. Eventually we figured out Grampa didn't mean it - he was just scared for us and frustrated that he wasn't able to stop us from taking the tumble in the first place and it came out as yelling - but it was confusing until that realization. ; )

 

Anger instead of fear/pain is a super common reaction. I saw it all the time in trusts and estates work. It's easier to be mad at your brother than sad about Mom. My husband actually has a "wires crossed" type of reaction when he is worried. Many years ago, he was a total dick when his mother was in the ICU. I was shocked until it clicked that he was worried and this was how he was expressing it. It was so unlike him. Now I better recognize his reaction and he is open to hearing me when I tell him he needs to reassess or step away. 

Knowing all that, it is still hard to watch Dean behave this way. I hate the way the brothers are currently interacting.

[gonzosgirrl]

Personally, if I was Dean, I would have walked away from the whole works the moment I was made to feel like a bad guy for doubting/being angry over the literal spawn of Satan and my family and friends' resulting deaths. But then, I would've been gone about five and half seasons ago, so there's that.

Edited March 9, 2020 by gonzosgirrl