S04.E03: It's for the Greater Good

[possibilities]

1 hour ago, apn85 said:

Now, Frank? Love them or hate them, those two have chemistry. To me, they have chemistry in any scene they have together.

Frank has chemistry with everyone. He has chemistry when he's in a scene by himself.

[darkestboy]

Good episode, enjoyed the main case of the week and Marianne Jean Baptiste's guest spot in this one.

Even though Annalise has done that stuff herself, I found myself rather annoyed by Bonnie and Nate being so petty this week with her.

Connor and Asher's mutual pity parties need to come to an end now. Nice that we saw Connor's dads in this one.

Michaela vs. Simon, seems that might get nastier in the upcoming weeks. I did like that Tegan was on Michaela's side though.

Laurel is putting Michaela at risk with her plan but I guess she could be onto something.

Despite the end scene with Isaac and Michaela, I get the feeling, the "he" will not be Laurel's baby that's dead though, 8/10

[wanderingstar]

43 minutes ago, darkestboy said:

Even though Annalise has done that stuff herself, I found myself rather annoyed by Bonnie and Nate being so petty this week with her.

This irked me. They didn't even access that voicemail for the greater good; they just did it to get back at Annalise. I have to think that Bonnie and Nate are mostly mad at themselves for sticking by Annalise as long as they have. As for Frank, his loyalty to Annalise is borderline unhinged.

I did like Nate saying "No munchkins allowed" when Laurel was trying to get a job with Bonnie.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Gillian Rosh

[Chairperson Meow]

12 hours ago, Evenshorter said:

My daughter just mentioned the same thing to me!  Also, we think it's Laurel's dad that is killed in the elevator, maybe Michaela was there for some reason - and that's the "he" that is dead.  We also had a thought that there wasn't even a baby, that it's a hysterical pregnancy. Clearly, we have too much time on our hands.

I don't think it's Laurel's dad who's killed.  I think it's Asher, Connor,  or Oliver.  I do think that Laurel's dad has something to do with both the baby being wherever and another murder.  My reasons for thinking this are:

-Mikayla and/or Laurel get Oliver to hack into Papa Shady' s company.   

- They use Connor to basically do what he did in the past.  Seduce someone with info

- Asher gets killed to shut them up

[rubinia]

I think having the dead "him" be Laurel's baby is too obvious. I'm thinking Frank or Laurel's dad.

[Milaxx]

6 hours ago, darkestboy said:

Despite the end scene with Isaac and Michaela, I get the feeling, the "he" will not be Laurel's baby that's dead though, 8/10

He could be a lot of people besides the baby. I don't think it will be Connor, Asher or Oliver. It could be Simon, Denver, Dominic, Laurel's dad or someone we haven't met yet.

2 hours ago, rubinia said:

I think having the dead "him" be Laurel's baby is too obvious. I'm thinking Frank or Laurel's dad.

Frank is alive. He's the one who brings Isaac to the hospital.

[ForeverAlone]

I still enjoy watching this show, but I have learned to not speculate too much on how a mystery will be resolved. One of my biggest pet peeves about this show is that the writers don't have a clear story arc going in to a season, that they are just flying by the seat of their pants and making stuff up as they go along. That can work for some type of storylines, but when shows present complicated mysteries, they really need to make some sort of sense in the end. I like writers who have a bigger picture with regards to the stories they tell, so they can write in ways that tie it all together. Pete Nowalk has said on more than one occasion that they are just making stuff up, and they hadn't even decided to kill off Wes until the last possible moment. So I have zero faith that they have mapped out the trajectory of this season's mystery. So it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't even decided who this mysterious "he" Michaela was referring to in this week's flash forward. 

[Keepitmoving]

20 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Because both Bonnie and Nate are in love with Annalise.  If she said, "come here children," they'd come running.  They hate her because they hate themselves for wanting to be with her.

I agree with this, however (going off topic here...) I see the same mess in "Queen Sugar" where the women are the ones saving the day, I mean, where would Ralph Angel be without the women in his family? 

It's different IMO, very different, because every woman on that show has at least one person who IMO loves them dearly and looks out for them. There is a safe place for them to fall. Heck at times you have that safe person taking it on themselves to bring up something that they know is wrong with that person without that woman having to bring it up. Meaning, the love is shown for that woman because the other person is observant and gives a shit about how well she's living her life. That has never been the case for Michaela, no way, not on this show . I have a specific issue with the black female character who does not receive warmth, support, shoulder to cry on at least once and while, in between all her saving. Connor gave Michaela support for like two damn seconds back without saying something nasty and insulting back in season one when Aiden dumped her. Nope, AD has got it right for me and so does Issa Raye on nsecure for that matter. Nowalk and Shondaland in general fell asleep at the wheel a long time ago for me. Like I said, this is the only Shondaland show I've had patience for and now that patience has worn thin.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[rubinia]

5 hours ago, Milaxx said:

He could be a lot of people besides the baby. I don't think it will be Connor, Asher or Oliver. It could be Simon, Denver, Dominic, Laurel's dad or someone we haven't met yet.

Frank is alive. He's the one who brings Isaac to the hospital.

Oh, yeah! Ok, not Frank then.

[Evenshorter]

10 hours ago, Chairperson Meow said:

I don't think it's Laurel's dad who's killed.  I think it's Asher, Connor,  or Oliver.  I do think that Laurel's dad has something to do with both the baby being wherever and another murder.  My reasons for thinking this are:

-Mikayla and/or Laurel get Oliver to hack into Papa Shady' s company.   

- They use Connor to basically do what he did in the past.  Seduce someone with info

- Asher gets killed to shut them up

You could be right. The thing about this show that I don't like is that it's written as it goes, so there's no way to determine what's going to happen, because the writers don't have an end game. That;s what I like about This is Us - the creator has the first 4 season already figured out.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Evenshorter
Because write is wrong

[TwistedandBored]

I liked the episode and I loved seeing Michaela in her new surroundings. Also, I am over Nate. Like why is he even in the show anymore?

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I don't think it's Laurel's dad who's killed.  I think it's Asher, Connor,  or Oliver.  I do think that Laurel's dad has something to do with both the baby being wherever and another murder.  My reasons for thinking this are:

I don't think anyone gets killed this season and if they do, they won't be that important, and no one will care including the authorities, LOL. I mean this show is that hot of a mess, so why not? I think in all the write ups I read on this season, Nowalk claimed that this season would be a bit different because the question to be answered would be "Where?" not "Who?" So, whoever Michaela thinks is dead, I'm thinking that person or baby is alive unbeknownst to her and they are just missing. So lord help me, we will have to spend I don't know how freaking long looking for them. I mean the question is posed in the beginning episodes of the season and I think Laurel shouts it out in episode one, "Where's my baby?" And if that's the case they better make that shit interesting, I mean real interesting. The only way I thought it would be interesting was if she lost the baby, went nuts and had a hysterical pregnancy, something like that. I hope they don't drop the ball, good luck to them. Because we still don't know why Wes was murdered, why? It can't just be because he was dating Laurel, there's got to be more to it than that. There better be.

Or, for all we know the baby was in that nursery and Frank just didn't get around to telling Laurel where he is in that scene.  Although, how he could be so stupid and not tell a frightened new mother that her baby is alive, or he's in surgery, something like that to keep her from losing it would be beyond me. I mean she keeps screaming wanting to know where he is so.... Frank's not stupid. We assume Michaela's looking in that nursery, thinking the baby isn't in there, but maybe that's not the case.  Whatever happened, the way the doctor is playing it, he really doesn't look like he's in the know. Yet he's calling Anna telling her that she, Laurel is up, so...Anna knows what went down, she knows Laurel's in the hospital. For some reason, I don't think what happened to Michaela has anything to do with the "birth" of Laurel's baby.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[apn85]

16 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

I still enjoy watching this show, but I have learned to not speculate too much on how a mystery will be resolved. One of my biggest pet peeves about this show is that the writers don't have a clear story arc going in to a season, that they are just flying by the seat of their pants and making stuff up as they go along. That can work for some type of storylines, but when shows present complicated mysteries, they really need to make some sort of sense in the end. I like writers who have a bigger picture with regards to the stories they tell, so they can write in ways that tie it all together. Pete Nowalk has said on more than one occasion that they are just making stuff up, and they hadn't even decided to kill off Wes until the last possible moment. So I have zero faith that they have mapped out the trajectory of this season's mystery. So it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't even decided who this mysterious "he" Michaela was referring to in this week's flash forward. 

Yes. For the first couple seasons, and even the start of season 3, I had no idea this is how Nowalk wrote things. I'd be looking for clues and things that might tip me off to what ultimately happened in the winter finale and THEN found out that Nowalk didn't even know. How stupid is that?! I also thought it was totally crappy to string the cast along that way. This is someone's job and how they are supporting themselves and families!  I want to say he didn't decide on who would actually be the one to die until they were working on the 7th or 8th episode last season. Pretty sure I remember one of them saying that. 

Not only that, based on the timeline we followed last season, there is no realistic way the baby could even belong to Wes. That is why I didn't believe it was his kid! They slept together, I believe, 3 weeks before the fire. At most, she'd be like 5 weeks pregnant by that night, yet they are up in the hospital doing an abdominal ultrasound and everyone in the room can hear the heart beating. What?! Like you can't Google that shit and see that is totally unrealistic?! Would have been too early! That is why I was pretty certain she and Frank had hooked up at some point and we'd see it in a flashback eventually. Nope. Nowalk just decided to forge ahead without correctly setting anything up. Now I don't even bother picking things out that might come up later. Waste of time. 

So I have NO trouble believing that Nowalk doesn't even know who "he" is yet. I still don't see how a baby is going to work on this show. I think it'll just make things worse if that is even possible! 

[jhlipton]

I don't understand one thing.  The guy who delivered the DVD of the suicide was screwing the head of the Public Defender's office.  If I put the pieces together right, she gave him the DVD and he brought it to Annalise.  What did she think Anna was going to do with it?  She knows Anna and her reputation, especially how Anna will run over anyone to get the job done.  Did she think Anna was just going to go to the judge and say "Pretty please, look at this DVD"?  That's not how Anna has ever worked!

On 10/13/2017 at 1:26 AM, apn85 said:

I do hate that Laurel has roped Michaela into this. I really do. I think Michaela is still very driven and wants that career and Laurel couldn't care less. She comes from money and has money, so what's it to her to drop out of law school? Michaela has so much potential and I just hate to see her in more trouble.

On 10/13/2017 at 2:57 AM, Gillian Rosh said:

I think it's selfish of Laurel to ask Michaela to jeopardize her opportunity with Caplan & Gold so Laurel can exact revenge on her father.

On 10/13/2017 at 10:06 PM, apn85 said:

I At least they were all guilty in some way for Sam.

Michaela owes Laurel squat.  She had a legitimate reason to be in the house, and Sam going over the railing was an accident, and didn't even kill him.  Luarel guilting her into staying quiet was completely selfish.

If I was Michaela, I would have told Laurel to get her raggedy ass out of my office and told security that if she showed up again, give her the "bum's rush".

 

On 10/13/2017 at 6:11 PM, Neurochick said:

I see the same mess in "Queen Sugar" where the women are the ones saving the day, I mean, where would Ralph Angel be without the women in his family? 

RA does get called out, at least somewhat, by the women in his life -- it's mostly Vi who coddles him.  Even Darla stands up for herself, and soesn't put up with his selfishness for long, especially if she thinks it will hurt er sobriety.

[Neurochick]

3 hours ago, jhlipton said:

If I was Michaela, I would have told Laurel to get her raggedy ass out of my office and told security that if she showed up again, give her the "bum's rush".

I agree, but this is a soap opera where dysfunction and dysfunctional relationships are the norm.  I mean if this were a show about happy, sane people most of us would call the show boring and wouldn't watch.

[jhlipton]

55 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I agree, but this is a soap opera where dysfunction and dysfunctional relationships are the norm.  I mean if this were a show about happy, sane people most of us would call the show boring and wouldn't watch.

True dat!

[Evenshorter]

On 10/14/2017 at 4:09 PM, ForeverAlone said:

I still enjoy watching this show, but I have learned to not speculate too much on how a mystery will be resolved. One of my biggest pet peeves about this show is that the writers don't have a clear story arc going in to a season, that they are just flying by the seat of their pants and making stuff up as they go along. That can work for some type of storylines, but when shows present complicated mysteries, they really need to make some sort of sense in the end. I like writers who have a bigger picture with regards to the stories they tell, so they can write in ways that tie it all together. Pete Nowalk has said on more than one occasion that they are just making stuff up, and they hadn't even decided to kill off Wes until the last possible moment. So I have zero faith that they have mapped out the trajectory of this season's mystery. So it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't even decided who this mysterious "he" Michaela was referring to in this week's flash forward. 

Would like this 100 times if I could. I posted something along the same lines, but you've said it perfectly. It's a crapshoot, and we'll never guess the end because the writers don't even know.

[Milaxx]

9 hours ago, apn85 said:

Yes. For the first couple seasons, and even the start of season 3, I had no idea this is how Nowalk wrote things. I'd be looking for clues and things that might tip me off to what ultimately happened in the winter finale and THEN found out that Nowalk didn't even know. How stupid is that?! I also thought it was totally crappy to string the cast along that way. This is someone's job and how they are supporting themselves and families!  I want to say he didn't decide on who would actually be the one to die until they were working on the 7th or 8th episode last season. Pretty sure I remember one of them saying that. 

This style of writing never annoyed me because I'd seen it before. Most notably on Breaking Bad where Vince Gilligan said the way he worked was to write themselves into a corner and then figure their way out of it. SO having an overall view of the  season and figuring it out as they go doesn't bother me.

 

Still, I don't think we'll have a death among the K4 this season unless someone is leaving the show. I'm still 50/50 as to whether Laurel really is pregnant.  Now if there really is a death it could be second string characters like Simon or Jorge, the Dean or maybe Nate, but who knows? 

[apn85]

21 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Michaela owes Laurel squat.  She had a legitimate reason to be in the house, and Sam going over the railing was an accident, and didn't even kill him.  Luarel guilting her into staying quiet was completely selfish.

If I was Michaela, I would have told Laurel to get her raggedy ass out of my office and told security that if she showed up again, give her the "bum's rush".

 

 

1

What I meant about all being guilty in some way about Sam was that they all participated in burning his body, chopping it up, and dumping it. If they'd gone to authorities that night, yes, it was an accident and hopefully would've been seen as such. What they did after was not. If Michaela was going to stand up for herself, it should have been then. She should have told Laurel to go pound sand and taken herself to the cops that night. I guess there wouldn't have been much of a show if that had happened though. Be that as it may, no, she doesn't owe Laurel anything. What happened to Wes has nothing to do with anyone but Laurel and she needs to realize that. She won't, but she needs to. HER boyfriend, HER father, HER problem. Just like when they were at Connor & Oliver's place for the "dinnervention". Laurel saying to Michaela. "And what am I supposed to tell him when he grows up and asks about his Father? That he was murdered and I did nothing?" Um, it's not Michaela's problem what you tell your son when he's grown. Hell, she's probably hoping not to still be in contact with you by then! 

 

14 hours ago, Milaxx said:

This style of writing never annoyed me because I'd seen it before. Most notably on Breaking Bad where Vince Gilligan said the way he worked was to write themselves into a corner and then figure their way out of it. SO having an overall view of the  season and figuring it out as they go doesn't bother me.

I'm sure I've watched shows before that have done this and just didn't know. I think as long as you keep churning out quality stories then that method of writing is fine. It obviously works for that individual. My issue comes in when they write themselves into a corner and cannot get out. That is my fear with Nowalk, but I know he has others working alongside him so maybe combined they can pull it off. I hope so! 

[Lady Calypso]

15 hours ago, Milaxx said:

This style of writing never annoyed me because I'd seen it before. Most notably on Breaking Bad where Vince Gilligan said the way he worked was to write themselves into a corner and then figure their way out of it. SO having an overall view of the  season and figuring it out as they go doesn't bother me.

My issue with this style of writing is that for this particular show, with half of their premise being the mystery aspect of whatever is going on in the flashforward/flashback, and being able to go back at the end of the season to look for the clues and hints. For shows that don't rely on the Five W Mystery portion, I can understand the style of writing. 

For example, I wish they had solidified Wes' death and Connor's involvement more than two episodes before those mysteries were revealed. It would have been fun to go back and see those hints building up to the mystery. Because going back to see the Annalise sobbing at the burned body moment, for me, loses its appeal because they didn't know for sure it would be Wes. So what if they had changed their mind and made it Connor? Then Annalise's reaction would have felt out of character, so it had to be Wes (or Nate, possibly). 

So, with Michaela's reaction in this particular episode, it's odd to think that she'd be reacting this hard over the baby being the "him" that she's crying about, only because Michaela hasn't shown herself to be that invested in Laurel's pregnancy. Unless she had been there when Laurel's baby was born, I'd think that Michaela's devastated reaction is more about Asher or Connor's death than the baby's. 

[Milaxx]

7 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, with Michaela's reaction in this particular episode, it's odd to think that she'd be reacting this hard over the baby being the "him" that she's crying about, only because Michaela hasn't shown herself to be that invested in Laurel's pregnancy. Unless she had been there when Laurel's baby was born, I'd think that Michaela's devastated reaction is more about Asher or Connor's death than the baby's. 

I think we may be tipping more into stuff that should go in the speculation w/o spoilers thread since this really doesn't have to do with the episode anymore.

[Joimiaroxeu]

For the life of me I'll never understand getting tattoos on your face.

Nate's Munchkins jab didn't work for me. The Munchkins didn't aid and abet murderers. Everyone knows that house landed on the Witch of the East by accident. ?

Connor's dads!

[jhlipton]

On 10/16/2017 at 4:52 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Everyone knows that house landed on the Witch of the East by accident. ?

Glinda the Evil Bitch of the North guided it. 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I think we may be tipping more into stuff that should go in the speculation w/o spoilers thread since this really doesn't have to do with the episode anymore.

But it's hard because they keep showing pieces of the flash forward at the end of each episode. So they showed Michaela, Laurel, the Dr.,Frank and Bonnie at the crime scene at Anna's hotel at the end of the first one, and they continue to show Michaela in the Dr.'s arms and that crime scene in this episode. So it is something they continue to show us at the end of each episode seems like. Now they've added another piece of the flash foward of Oliver at another crime scene at Caplan and Gold to this episode. So all this is actually in the episode to talk about. And you can't really talk about it without asking questions and somewhat speculating because there are details missing in scenes that are to come, that they are currently showing at the end of each episode. 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[sinkwriter]

On 10/13/2017 at 5:03 PM, Chairperson Meow said:

I think Therapist guy is shady.  I also think he's hired by Laurel's dad to get in Annelise's head.   

I know that it's highly likely that Annalise's prostitute client/friend simply relapsed, but a suspicious part of me wondered if someone had her killed and made to look like an overdose, just to use her death as another notch in a pursuit to distract Annalise and get her to crack and fall apart.

On 10/13/2017 at 10:18 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Smart idea to include food, because it got Connor to stick around. I did chuckle at Connor trashing Frank for being at the dinnervention, only to compliment him on his meatballs right after. 

That part cracked me up. It was probably one of my favorite humor moments of the episode.

*Connor rant rant rant* ... *pause* ... "The meatballs are really good." Heeee.

[Milaxx]

10 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

But it's hard because they keep showing pieces of the flash forward at the end of each episode. So they showed Michaela, Laurel, the Dr.,Frank and Bonnie at the crime scene at Anna's hotel at the end of the first one, and they continue to show Michaela in the Dr.'s arms and that crime scene in this episode. So it is something they continue to show us at the end of each episode seems like. Now they've added another piece of the flash foward of Oliver at another crime scene at Caplan and Gold to this episode. So all this is actually in the episode to talk about. And you can't really talk about it without asking questions and somewhat speculating because there are details missing in scenes that are to come, that they are currently showing at the end of each episode. 

ITA, if I'm just making a quick response i keep in in the episode thread. If it's a longer theory, I'll jump to spec w/o spoilers. (YMMV as to whether previews count as spoilers, but I prefer using that space because I don't want to be spoiled by true spoilers.

8 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

On 10/13/2017 at 6:03 PM, Chairperson Meow said:

I think Therapist guy is shady.  I also think he's hired by Laurel's dad to get in Annelise's head.   

I know that it's highly likely that Annalise's prostitute client/friend simply relapsed, but a suspicious part of me wondered if someone had her killed and made to look like an overdose, just to use her death as another notch in a pursuit to distract Annalise and get her to crack and fall apart.

I think her story arc is done and there's nothing nefarious about her death. That character's role was to spring board AK's actions this season with the class action suit.

[Chas411]

Laurel is insufferable... Connor is a close second. Neither can go a minute without making everything all about them. What's worse is how the group all pander to their selfish tantrums. 

Laurel especially is a selfish hypocritical ass.

[jhlipton]

On 1/25/2018 at 1:35 PM, Chas411 said:

Laurel is insufferable... Connor is a close second. Neither can go a minute without making everything all about them. What's worse is how the group all pander to their selfish tantrums. 

Laurel especially is a selfish hypocritical ass.

YASSSS!  None of them would have been in this mess if they hadn't gone along with Laurel's stooooooooooopid plan.

Edited January 30, 2018 by jhlipton

[Coxfires]

I don’t know about Connor, he has become such a non-entity at this point, I can’t even say he grates. Laurel was given the Season2!Wes treatment, what with being obsessed with avenging their SO. I always found that the show had a hard time balancing the K5, and this is still the case for me, and this ANTARES plot doesn’t resonate with me this season. I know this is primarily AK/VD show (as she deserves), but the lack in consistency in the « kids » writing is somewhat disappointing. Michaela deserves more support, Asher more depth, Connor a SL outside Oliver, the cast is talented enough but the writers fail them, I think.