GH History Lessons: Because History is Always Repeating Itself

[peachmangosteen]

Quick, someone post a really bad ALW clip so I can compare her to NL. I don't really remember anything about Courtney, even though I was watching at some point when she was on.

[UYI]

Here's the first time Carly and Courtney met, in 2002. Courtney was conducting a meeting of Long Lost Sisters Anonymous with Kristina 1.0, and met both AJ and Carly there that night.

And while I've never watched this before, it came up with first on my YT search: in the ultimate reminder that taste will always be subjective, someone's favorite Carly and Courtney moments. If you have around a half hour to kill sometime, go nuts.

Edited July 26, 2017 by UYI

[ulkis]

I mostly didn't like Courtney because of her tiny eyebrows. Sue me.

[coffee drinker]

54 minutes ago, UYI said:

Here's the first time Carly and Courtney met, in 2002. Courtney was conducting a meeting of Long Lost Sisters Anonymous with Kristina 1.0, and met both AJ and Carly there that night.

And while I've never watched this before, it came up with first on my YT search: in the ultimate reminder that taste will always be subjective, someone's favorite Carly and Courtney moments. If you have around a half hour to kill sometime, go nuts.

Yeah, those characters sucked.  Massively.  And the actresses were marginal.  Blech.

[Lobsel Vith]

I liked TB with Ted King's Lorenzo Alcazar, and I could understand TB's desire to see Carly stand on her own two feet rather than being so dependent (presumably on Sonny) when she expressed why she vacated the role.

On that note, I also loved TK saying the writers insistence on continually pitting Lorenzo against Sonny never made any sense storywise (which is do true; I also prefer it to actors talking as if MB parted the seas or DZ's weird comment about some actors playing characters not being afraid of Sonny in a mutual interview he did with MW - I presume DZ may have been referring to SK, which is simply odd if true). I would've enjoyed seeing Lorenzo in some Q stories (but that would've required TIIC to care about the Qs).

I wasn't a fan of SWSNBN or Emily 2.0, especially after what happened to Zander (or the ridiculous 'pirate' storyline that gave us a Quartermaine ancestor who looked like Emily 2.0, who isn't a blood relative of the Qs, which had to be pointed out to the writers).

[ulkis]

I would think DZ would be referring to MW, actually.

[Lobsel Vith]

4 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I would think DZ would be referring to MW, actually.

But MW was in the interview with him (and she said she agreed with his sentiment, although DZ never clarified who he was actually talking about). Admittedly, SK came to mind because AJ wasn't afraid of Sonny (which made sense to me given their history), but I admit I could be wrong.

[HeatLifer]

My favorite Carly and Courtney scene was when Carly told her that Robin and Brenda were Jason and Sonny's angels. You speak those facts, Caroline!

[ulkis]

6 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

But MW was in the interview with him (and she said she agreed with his sentiment, although DZ never clarified who he was actually talking about). 

What was his quote? That people should play their scenes with Sonny as if their characters are scared of him?

[Lobsel Vith]

31 minutes ago, ulkis said:

What was his quote? That people should play their scenes with Sonny as if their characters are scared of him?

MW was talking about how her character "kind of bows" to Sonny because of the mob world he lives in, and DZ added that a lot of actors don't like to do that (in a TV Source Article). Admittedly, it could have been a more general comment (outside of GH, I'm mainly familiar with his work on BSG), but he cited 'arrogance' and 'ego' as reasons why actors don't want to play that.

With respect to Sonny, it just comes across odd given how most of the show has catered to his character and the mob for so long - practically two decades now under various regimes. This really isn't a problem that the show has ever had with Sonny.

[ulkis]

Thanks for explaining.

I think the latest bout of Sonny resurgence comes from the network. they glance at the show and all they see is less Sonny, and all they know is sonny is that supposedly popular character, so they probably said "yeah add more of him" and don't actually bother to try to fix anything more than superficially.

[UYI]

FWIW, I actually think TB is a great actress who did/had the chance to make Carly more likable. And while her character may have been terrible, ALW's acting is mostly in the "meh" category for me.

But of course, YMMV. :)

[Asp Burger]

On Braun, my mileage does vary. I found her the smuggest of the four Carlys, and the hardest one with whom to sympathize. But this has been coming up since the TWop/SoapZone heyday, and I'm fine with being on the fringes on the topic. I guess because she was physically slighter and more waifish than the others, it read to many as fragility, vulnerability, or something, but the way she actually acted the character was this entitled, hard-as-nails character who would cut you dead.

Coffee drinker makes a good point about her overestimating her worth to the show, and I feel that as the years went on, that was more noticeable in the performances. Combined with Guza's Fab Four obsession, it was a lot to take. Like, when she argued with another female character, I felt I was seeing Tamara Braun's satisfaction that she would get the last word; she would get the best zingers; she would get to saunter out of the scene in triumph. At least with Sarah Brown and Laura Wright, it's all about the character to me.  

I don't think Braun realized until too late that the show's obsession was with Carly (and even that was mostly because she was a Sonny appendage), not with her personally. Which isn't to say she regrets leaving. For all I know, she's never looked back. I give her credit for coming in in a difficult spot and making her own fan base, but not much more.  

I thought it was interesting that when she left the show, and she was asked whom she missed working with, she only named Alicia Leigh Willis and Dylan Cash.

On the other Ladies of the Aughts being discussed here:  

ALW was adequate and that's it. She hit her marks and knew her lines. Another actress could have taken all the terrible writing for that character and created someone more likable from it. The present-day Hayley Erin, for example, is loads better.  

I really don't think Natalia Livingston was as bad as her reputation. She's another who deteriorated over her run, though. I think she was either getting bad guidance or no guidance. I was never more impressed with her than I was on her first day. However, when I watch a soap, I slide the scale, especially for actors playing younger characters. I've seen how bad it can be. Bringing her back as a second character made no sense.  

Edited July 27, 2017 by Asp Burger

[peachmangosteen]

I remember loving TB's Carly and I was super into Carly/Lorenzo. But then I was super into Jason/Sam, too, once upon a time. My tastes are real bad, folks!

[UYI]

41 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I remember loving TB's Carly and I was super into Carly/Lorenzo. But then I was super into Jason/Sam, too, once upon a time. My tastes are real bad, folks!

I really have never got the impression that ALW was a bad actress, but since you asked earlier for a clip where she looked bad, this clip of the car accident she caused Elizabeth and Gia to keep get into is good enough, and kind of funny on its own, really. ALW rocks a thousand yard blank stare here when she realizes she's caused a crash, lol. And there's an honest to God TRAFFIC LIGHT in this scene! Remember when the budget of a daytime soap allowed for such things?

ETA: Okay, maybe it's not as blank a stare as I remember. But I don't know, I still think there's some UCG in there. :)

Edited July 27, 2017 by UYI

[jsbt]

I remember first seeing ALW near the end of Another World and thinking she was really good. A few years later she turned up on GH, but I always knew the role was wrong - they brought on a sister for Sonny but instead of the ongoing rumors re: Gia and her mother it was an insta-family no one knew, and she was white as fuck. Why? Because JFP and Megan McTavish were pissing on the canvas to claim territory.

Then Frons forced her with Jason despite her having excellent chemistry with Billy Warlock - she was awful with Steve Burton, came off like a child. The minute she was kludged into the mob scene to create "the Fab 4" she became unbearable. And elevating the truly insane writing in her glory year (2003, which felt super-Chuck Pratt to me then and now, just a crazy fucking time) was beyond her limited ability - like others have said, she had a couple tics and that was it. She couldn't handle the airtime or the focus, and it may well have been just the character but she seemed deeply smug onscreen.

I did laugh when after all that heavy-handed coronation Courtney suddenly and abruptly became relegated to Endsville around '04. I mean, Guza tore her up from then on - limbo with Jax, then the degrading Nikolas thing he didn't care about (the actors may have campaigned for it but I think Guza knew it would burn them with the audience and didn't care about either one), then death. It was a speedy turnaround IIRC; near the end of '03 it seemed like she went from fairy tale wedding to Jason in Paris to fuck this chick in about four weeks.

I didn't have a problem with seeing Courtney appear to Spencer because it was a brief visit. I do think Carly doesn't always talk about her enough. As nauseating as their instant-BFFhood was, they were close.

Edited July 27, 2017 by jsbt

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I remember loving TB's Carly and I was super into Carly/Lorenzo.

Same here. TB and TK had great chemistry, which of course is why Lorenzo had to die by Foley. I liked TB's Carly genuinely trying to live a life without Sonny. And of course her baseball bat scene with the Five Families is classic. I get all the criticism of her, but I'm not sure I agree that she was so instrumental in making Carly so prominent. It was pretty clear (to me, at least) that the character of Carly was written to be a major character on the show from the get-go.

45 minutes ago, jsbt said:

I didn't have a problem with seeing Courtney appear to Spencer because it was a brief visit.

Same here. It was a nice scene and appropriate, I thought. And she got to tell Spencer to STFU about his "townie" crap.

[Asp Burger]

I never really expected Gia to be the Sonny sister. I had heard it would be Liz, in the Wendy Riche/Michele Val Jean period, and Liz and Sonny would keep it a secret blah blah safety other mobsters, but Carly would misinterpret their frequent meetings and do crazy shit (she hated Liz already). But there was a lot rumored in those days that did or didn't happen, so they probably considered a few angles.

Gia was totally a McTavish "it girl," although she didn't create her. Her prominence on the show soared and plummeted with the coming and going of JFP/McTavish. Maybe in part it was Amber Tamblyn leaving and Becky being heavily pregnant/on maternity leave a lot of that year, but I think it was also MMT preferring either her own blank-slate characters (Angel, Big Kristina, Courtney) or recent arrivals who were the next best thing (Gia).  

Quote

And there's an honest to God TRAFFIC LIGHT in this scene! Remember when the budget of a daytime soap allowed for such things?

I'm more impressed they ponied up for the rights to "Every Breath You Take," by the original artist yet, than that there's a traffic light. Just for a song Liz would like and Gia would think was too retro, for a 15-second clip? Truly the days of luxury.  

Edited July 28, 2017 by Asp Burger

[peachmangosteen]

7 hours ago, Asp Burger said:

I'm more impressed they ponied up for the rights to "Every Breath You Take," by the original artist yet, than that there's a traffic light. Just for a song Liz would like and Gia would think was too retro, for a 15-second clip? Truly the days of luxury.  

Liz liking Every Breath You Take makes so much sense.

[jsbt]

I loved Gia well before JFP, and I think MVJ and co. liked her a lot too. I wouldn't lump her in with the hideous reign of Jill and Megan.

[Chairperson Meow]

On 7/26/2017 at 10:03 PM, ulkis said:

Thanks for explaining.

I think the latest bout of Sonny resurgence comes from the network. they glance at the show and all they see is less Sonny, and all they know is sonny is that supposedly popular character, so they probably said "yeah add more of him" and don't actually bother to try to fix anything more than superficially.

I think that as well.  I also don't think characters should be afraid of Sonny.  Especially since the network is billing him as the romantic lead.  It can't be Jason,  as he's paired with Sam or Liz.  Sonny is the one that sleeps around and romances most of the new ladies.   But they can't have their cake and eat it too.  Is he a Victor Newman dastardly type who maneuvers around the law and morals in general?   Or is he the Jack Abbott, who is the romantic lead type?  Or if you will.. is he Grant or Ryan from Another World?   Is he John or Stefano from Days?  Is he Taylor or Brooke from B&B?  He can't be both in order for the show to be successful.  And they painted Jason into a corner with his stories.  Micheal exists in the way corn flakes were supposed to stop masturbation when they were invented.

Has there ever been a leading man type besides Jason/Sonny in the past 20 years?  Franco does not count.

[ulkis]

Today is Liz's 20th GH anniversary:

[HeatLifer]

How cool! Does anyone have any favorite Liz scenes? 

[TeeVee329]

Gasp, Liz smoking a cigarette!

And again, why isn't Liz dealing with a rebellious teen of her own yet?

[UYI]

That video didn't show up for me for some reason.

Here's another one of Elizabeth Imogene Webber's first scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPqLAC5ZgnA

[ulkis]

14 hours ago, HeatLifer said:

How cool! Does anyone have any favorite Liz scenes? 

I'm trying to think of something non Lucky Liz (because with them, at least with JJ, I wanna be like "everything!" lol) . . . sorry, something slightly Sabrina related is coming into my head . . . it was hilarious when Liz came over Patrick's house in her sunglasses hungover after the bachelor party.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, ulkis said:

it was hilarious when Liz came over Patrick's house in her sunglasses hungover after the bachelor party.

I think this is my favorite fun-Liz scene. My favorite scene that shows RH's acting was after Emily died and Elizabeth stayed with her body and sort of cleaned her up and mourned her. The writing was really, really good, which of course helped, but RH poured her heart and soul into those scenes.

[UYI]

[HeatLifer]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think this is my favorite fun-Liz scene. My favorite scene that shows RH's acting was after Emily died and Elizabeth stayed with her body and sort of cleaned her up and mourned her. The writing was really, really good, which of course helped, but RH poured her heart and soul into those scenes.

I bawled with Liz. Straight ugly cry.

3 hours ago, ulkis said:

I'm trying to think of something non Lucky Liz (because with them, at least with JJ, I wanna be like "everything!" lol) . . . sorry, something slightly Sabrina related is coming into my head . . . it was hilarious when Liz came over Patrick's house in her sunglasses hungover after the bachelor party.

I'm the same with LL2. I love any scenes with the two of them. It's the same way I feel about Scrubs.

[dubbel zout]

Guh, Taggert was so good in those scenes with Elizabeth. I miss the days when there was at least one competent person on the PCPD who couldn't care less about Sonny and Jason. 

Black-haired Lulu! She was so adorable with TG and TC.

Look at all the care they took to make sure everyone who should hear the news did. Though LOL at Sonny's exasperation, which I don't think is what MB was going for. He was with Hannah there, right? 

[ulkis]

Sadly, Taggert wasn't competent either. 

[dubbel zout]

At least he never lost his hate for either of them. He never had to tell Carly they were citizens of PC too and so he was honor-bound to protect them, the way Jordan did with Carly.

Edited August 2, 2017 by dubbel zout

[Melgaypet]

Elizabeth meets Laura. I can't seem to find the rest of these scenes, which is too bad.

[Lobsel Vith]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

At least he never lost his hate for either of them. He never had to tell Carly they were citizens of PC too and so he was honor-bound to protect them, the way Jordan did with Carly.

True, although I hated how Guza framed Taggert's dislike of Scummy and Anger Boy as if it was a character flaw for him, a police officer, to dislike career criminals who are involved in the mob (although I can see why Guza thought anyone disliking Jason was a character flaw given his weird obsession with him).

[dubbel zout]

That's been pretty consistent once Sonny became a major character. The people who hate him somehow just don't understand how tortured he is. Never mind he's drugged underaged girls, encouraged brain-damaged young men to become hit men, and gotten his children raped, blown up, kidnapped, and thrown around. But yeah, it's everyone else who's got the problem.

[TeeVee329]

10 hours ago, ulkis said:

I'm trying to think of something non Lucky Liz (because with them, at least with JJ, I wanna be like "everything!" lol) . . . sorry, something slightly Sabrina related is coming into my head . . . it was hilarious when Liz came over Patrick's house in her sunglasses hungover after the bachelor party.

Did somebody say Hungover!Liz!

[Asp Burger]

Old Liz clips really highlight Becky's slower-than-usual aging. In these very early ones from the late 1990s, she looks younger than she does today, of course. But then, I just looked at one where she's talking about her rape with Lucky, Nikolas, and stupid Rebecca Shaw standing there, from 2009.  She'd weathered 10-12 years well and doesn't look at all different to me from today.  I'd believe that that particular show was from the past February.  

Can anyone find Laura going off on Jason and Sonny, in that period where she and Luke blamed Sonny's enemy du jour for the bike-shop fire? The line I remember was her bitter "Oh, I forgot, you guys don't have kids!" which was a twist of the knife. Sonny, of course, had lost the only kid he knew about at the time in the Lily clink-booming, and Jason had recently had to relinquish rights to Opie.  

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, TeeVee329 said:

Did somebody say Hungover!Liz!

This will never not crack me up. Both RB and JT played it perfectly.

[Asp Burger]

Lisa Vultaggio (Brenda Millennial Edition) was a stiff one, wasn't she? One thing I do notice, though, when I look back at clips from this era, even something bad like the Hannah Scott saga, is that everyone was better dressed, and the show generally looked better.   

Edited August 10, 2017 by Asp Burger

[UYI]

She and JJ being married in real life proves that love is blind to couples with equal acting ability, lol. 

[Asp Burger]

Equal praying ability trumps equal acting ability.  

[ulkis]

Quote

Luke was able to shrug it off pretty easily. Ugh. I think you're right that Jake being a kid made the difference, and there was also the Jason connection. (Of course AJ also had a Jason connection, but: fat.)

@dubbel zout, I disagree with you about Luke shrugging it off easily. He was an ass, but that's a different thing.

[dubbel zout]

While the story was happening Luke was pretty gutted, but after that, he never seemed all that upset. I agree he was an ass, regardless. 

I was going to write something about how he was always very kind to Elizabeth later on, and then I remembered her son's death wasn't about her. But that doesn't change my perception that Luke generally was pretty blasé about running over a toddler while drunk.

Edited August 19, 2017 by dubbel zout
clarification

[Lobsel Vith]

7 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

While the story was happening Luke was pretty gutted, but after that, he never seemed all that upset. I agree he was an ass, regardless. 

I was going to write something about how he was always very kind to Elizabeth later on, and then I remembered her son's death wasn't about her. But that doesn't change my perception that Luke generally was pretty blasé about running over a toddler while drunk.

I wonder how much of that was TG as opposed to what the writers may have intended for Luke (given his initial 'redemption' where he drove Lucky's son a few blocks while sober, and much later when RC had Luke pay Coleman to change the name of Jake's, perhaps due to the perception some fans had about Luke's conduct). It did seem like TG had Luke continue drinking after Jake's death despite hitting Jake while drunk, which is no different than Sonny lamenting how his family gets hurt because of the mob (like when Michael was shot because Sonny kidnapped and tortured Johnny) but then doing nothing to actually change the fact that he's a mob boss.

[ulkis]

9 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I wonder how much of that was TG as opposed to what the writers may have intended for Luke (given his initial 'redemption' where he drove Lucky's son a few blocks while sober, and much later when RC had Luke pay Coleman to change the name of Jake's, perhaps due to the perception some fans had about Luke's conduct). It did seem like TG had Luke continue drinking after Jake's death despite hitting Jake while drunk, which is no different than Sonny lamenting how his family gets hurt because of the mob (like when Michael was shot because Sonny kidnapped and tortured Johnny) but then doing nothing to actually change the fact that he's a mob boss.

I'd say it was different, because Luke said it was because he was distracted trying to get to Lucky, not because he was drinking. So Luke didn't see it as a continuation of what helped kill Jake. Whether he was right or wrong about it, Luke thought his distraction killed Jake, not his drinking. Meanwhile, Sonny agreed with other people that his mob boss ways helped get people hurt.

[Pete Martell]

I know this isn't on topic with the other comments, but I was reading an old SOD from spring 1984 and the 'news' section mentioned that Rachel Ames' contract hadn't been renewed, but that she would at least be guaranteed 20 appearances in the next year. 

I'd read about how Monty slashed the appearances of the older, longtime cast members, but I hadn't known it had been that severe, and this at a time when Denise Alexander was leaving so they had so few veterans around. I could sort of understand it with Emily McLaughlin as I know she had some health problems, but Ames was such a great actress and Audrey could have been of use to the canvas.

I guess this explains why I feel like I barely ever see Audrey in episodes from the early '80s to around Wendy Riche or so. 

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

I guess this explains why I feel like I barely ever see Audrey in episodes from the early '80s to around Wendy Riche or so.

Wasn't the show overall pivoting toward younger characters? That was when Luke and Laura were at their peak, and RF!S had been introduced. Holly, Sean, and Tiffany were also onscreen by that point.

On another front, I was reading Sonny's Wiki entry, and it notes that Sonny originally was supposed to last six months because MB didn't want to commit to more than a year. 

[nilyank]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

On another front, I was reading Sonny's Wiki entry, and it notes that Sonny originally was supposed to last six months because MB didn't want to commit to more than a year. 

I think he tried out or was offered fir Damien Smith at the time. But yeah, MB originally did not want to go through the grind of being on contract on Gh. Little did anyone know how much screentime he would end having on Gh.

[dubbel zout]

Per Wiki, he was given the choice of Sonny or Damien Smith, and because Sonny was supposed to be short-term, that's the role he took. He also liked the name of the character.

[Lobsel Vith]

13 hours ago, ulkis said:

I'd say it was different, because Luke said it was because he was distracted trying to get to Lucky, not because he was drinking. So Luke didn't see it as a continuation of what helped kill Jake. Whether he was right or wrong about it, Luke thought his distraction killed Jake, not his drinking.

I understand where you're coming from, but I feel that my comparison is about the toxicity of the behavior of the two men in how it negatively impacts the people around him. Sure, TG has said in interviews that Luke doesn't see himself as an alcoholic (because he thought it was 'a really warped kind of nobility'), but that also takes him ignoring what a lot of people around him were saying, including his son, and even Mac at a later point (despite their history with Felicia). Sonny has that same toxicity to him; Sonny is someone who veers between acknowledging that the mob is a problem and acting like the mob can solve everything, including protecting his family - even when it puts his family (and other people) in the crossfire. That's why I made the comparison.

13 hours ago, ulkis said:

Meanwhile, Sonny agreed with other people that his mob boss ways helped get people hurt.

Sonny's words always ring hollow to me. For example, Sonny said he would never shoot an unarmed man again after shooting Dante, and then tried to kill Ethan soon afterward - a guy who never carried a gun. He also tried to shoot AJ at one point, and ultimately murdered him when he was unarmed. Having a lot of enablers (like Luke did) certainly helped. I don't feel like Sonny pretending as if he cares or will change makes him all that different when he never changes.