These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[gonzosgirrl]

41 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

We have to assume that Sam was screaming inside Lucifer fighting with everything he had while Lucifer was letting him feel every sickening blow to Dean.  Earlier in the episode Lucifer killed all of Azazel's army.  He looked in the mirror at Sam and asked "are we having fun yet?".  Sam looked horrified.  He knew right then that he was powerless to stop Lucifer.  I've thought about that scene a lot.  To me the final fight was an effort by  Team Free Will + Baby.  It was no mistake that Kripke started the episode talking about the Impala.  As Chuck said it was the most important object in the universe.  She wasn't just a mode of transportation for Dean and the army man.  Dean stopped the fight, Cas gave Dean 5 minutes after frying Michael, Bobby also distracted Lucifer for a moment.  Dean kept letting Sam know he was there, holding on and Baby (not kidding here I honestly believe this) distracted Lucifer by flashing her window in his eyes letting him focus on the toy.  As I said Sam wasn't being reminded of Dean's love, he already knew that.   What that moment did was allow all of the love between Sam and Dean flood Lucifer, just long enough for Sam to gain control....everyone contributed to caging Lucifer.   It wasn't just Sam.  He made the sacrifice but he couldn't have done it without everyone's help.

I have always thought that the Impala was more than just a car. She has "died" and come back almost as much as the Winchesters (even though it was impossible in most cases). One of the best episodes ever (for me) was Baby.  Finally the Impala was acknowledged for her magical powers.  In that episode she gathered all the objects that Dean would need to defeat the monster.  I loved that!

I might not believe in this interpretation, but I'll be damned if I don't love it. Well done. :)

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't think it was Sam who was overwhelmed with the memories of the love he and Dean felt for each other.   I think initially it was Lucifer.  He couldn't handle the flood of emotions (something angels were both incapable of and confused by) and for that instant Sam was able to take control.  The look on Lucifer/Sam's face when he saw the toy soldier was one of confusion.. The first time I watched SS that was how I interpreted that scene.  

I agree. I have subscribed to something similar to this theory for a long time. In my version, though, not only is Lucifer hit upside the head with the flood of emotions, he's also hit upside the head with the fact that Dean has always cared for Sam and still does, even when Sam made a mistake, while Michael... doesn't for him. At all. As in Michael said "nope I gotta kill you." And Lucifer's ego couldn't handle that. For me that was part of the payoff for the contrast of Dean not listening to John's "you have to either save Sam or kill him" by refusing to kill Sam versus Michael listening to God and trying to kill Lucifer even when Lucifer asked him to make his own choice and walk off the playing field.

And I won't be surprised if this comes up again somehow in reference to AU Michael, because for me on this show, ego and hubris is often the downfall of the villains. The reason why Crowley lasted as long as he did I think is because he never underestimated his foes - especially the "denim clad nightmares" - and wasn't too proud or delusional not to run and hide to fight another day.

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

We have to assume that Sam was screaming inside Lucifer fighting with everything he had while Lucifer was letting him feel every sickening blow to Dean.  Earlier in the episode Lucifer killed all of Azazel's army.  He looked in the mirror at Sam and asked "are we having fun yet?".  Sam looked horrified.  He knew right then that he was powerless to stop Lucifer.  I've thought about that scene a lot.  To me the final fight was an effort by  Team Free Will + Baby.  It was no mistake that Kripke started the episode talking about the Impala.  As Chuck said it was the most important object in the universe.  She wasn't just a mode of transportation for Dean and the army man.  Dean stopped the fight, Cas gave Dean 5 minutes after frying Michael, Bobby also distracted Lucifer for a moment.  Dean kept letting Sam know he was there, holding on and Baby (not kidding here I honestly believe this) distracted Lucifer by flashing her window in his eyes letting him focus on the toy.  As I said Sam wasn't being reminded of Dean's love, he already knew that.   What that moment did was allow all of the love between Sam and Dean flood Lucifer, just long enough for Sam to gain control....everyone contributed to caging Lucifer.   It wasn't just Sam.

I like the addition of Baby as part of the Team Free Will Lucifer defeat. I will have to include this in my interpretation now. And Lucifer could only hope to have such an awesome car - more reason for Lucifer to be jealous. ; )

47 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I've read this a lot and IMO it doesn't paint Sam in a favorable light.

Taken to the Sam thread.

[Res]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

We have to assume that Sam was screaming inside Lucifer fighting with everything he had while Lucifer was letting him feel every sickening blow to Dean.  Earlier in the episode Lucifer killed all of Azazel's army.  He looked in the mirror at Sam and asked "are we having fun yet?".  Sam looked horrified.  He knew right then that he was powerless to stop Lucifer.  I've thought about that scene a lot.  To me the final fight was an effort by  Team Free Will + Baby.  It was no mistake that Kripke started the episode talking about the Impala.  As Chuck said it was the most important object in the universe.  She wasn't just a mode of transportation for Dean and the army man.  Dean stopped the fight, Cas gave Dean 5 minutes after frying Michael, Bobby also distracted Lucifer for a moment.  Dean kept letting Sam know he was there, holding on and Baby (not kidding here I honestly believe this) distracted Lucifer by flashing her window in his eyes letting him focus on the toy.  As I said Sam wasn't being reminded of Dean's love, he already knew that.   What that moment did was allow all of the love between Sam and Dean flood Lucifer, just long enough for Sam to gain control....everyone contributed to caging Lucifer.   It wasn't just Sam.  He made the sacrifice but he couldn't have done it without everyone's help.

I have always thought that the Impala was more than just a car. She has "died" and come back almost as much as the Winchesters (even though it was impossible in most cases). One of the best episodes ever (for me) was Baby.  Finally the Impala was acknowledged for her magical powers.  In that episode she gathered all the objects that Dean would need to defeat the monster.  I loved that!

I now understand why some love the episode so much but agree to disagree because IMO that's a good deal of head cannon interpretation to what was on screen. It's nice that some fans can watch that way. Unfortunately, my rose-colored glasses were never that rosy. I just deal with what's on the screen.

[Casseiopeia]

58 minutes ago, Res said:

I now understand why some love the episode so much but agree to disagree because IMO that's a good deal of head cannon interpretation to what was on screen. It's nice that some fans can watch that way. Unfortunately, my rose-colored glasses were never that rosy. I just deal with what's on the screen.

I understand your POV but honestly that is what I saw on screen.  

Edited July 17, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I might not believe in this interpretation, but I'll be damned if I don't love it. Well done. :)

Thanks.  I appreciate that.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I understand your POV but honestly that is what I saw on screen. 

I agree. Me, too. For me, that was Lucifer seeing the green army man and getting hit with those memories. I thought Jared did an excellent job of showing the difference in how he looked when he was Lucifer and then the transition to Sam. Even the way he carried his body changed. When Sam gained control again, he seemed surprised that he was in control, so in my opinion, Sam had been fighting for control of his mind. It was Lucifer who saw the army man and got hit with the memories. Sam didn't get control until after all the memory flashes were done.

It'll be interesting to see what Jensen does with how he looks and carries himself as Michael.

[Pondlass1]

I dunno - do we really think Sam and Dean played with plastic army figures in the back of the Impala? Dean was old beyond his years. More like taking apart a gun or sneaking dad's beer. His brother's pulpy bloody broken face should have been the trigger.

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It'll be interesting to see what Jensen does with how he looks and carries himself as Michael.

This is the only thing I'm looking forward to.  

[AwesomO4000]

15 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I dunno - do we really think Sam and Dean played with plastic army figures in the back of the Impala? 

Taken to the "All Episodes Talk" thread.

[ILoveReading]

I don't think I like the idea of Dean being awake and aware.  Because if he was on a beach somewhere at least it would explain why he's not fighting.

But if he's awake it means that he's along for the ride and is too weak to do anything against Michael. 

[BabySpinach]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't think I like the idea of Dean being awake and aware.  Because if he was on a beach somewhere at least it would explain why he's not fighting.

But if he's awake it means that he's along for the ride and is too weak to do anything against Michael. 

Sam was awake when Lucifer was possessing him as well. It wasn't even a contest at the beginning, since Lucifer swept right in and quashed any resistance immediately. It was only the "power of wuv" deus ex machina that let Sam take control back. 

If Dean is awake and actively resisting, I'm sure we're going to see its effect on Michael. 

[Pondlass1]

24 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

If Dean is awake and actively resisting, I'm sure we're going to see its effect on Michael. 

I don't know how busy Christian is - but, yes, episodes could be devoted to their inner struggle.  And also, of course, we could witness the outer struggles as Michael must concentrate hard to keep Dean at bay.  Dean is a domineering and strong personality and he's pissed that he's trapped.  He's going to be a problem for Michael.  It all could be good TV, glimpses of Michael, glimpses of Dean.  

But...

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

But...

But Dabb... but Singer. Buttheads.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't think I like the idea of Dean being awake and aware.  Because if he was on a beach somewhere at least it would explain why he's not fighting.

But if he's awake it means that he's along for the ride and is too weak to do anything against Michael. 

Of course it can (and probably will) go horribly wrong for the character. I`m steeling myself against many little jabs by the narrative on how he is too weak to fight off an archangel, unlike Sam. And that gleefully taken up in fandom.

But I do think him being aware holds more potential overall. I reckon they will show this by him putting up a fight and Michael having somewhat of an internal struggle. And I do hope that ultimately leads to Dean at least having a hand in extricating himself from Michael. Not that just gets a goofy comedy relief scene on a beach and then the others do everything. 

Also, ideally, it should mean Dean retains some memory from the event which would give a strategic advantage later on when - I guess - Michael is still a problem, just in a different vessel.

[ILoveReading]

55 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Of course it can (and probably will) go horribly wrong for the character. I`m steeling myself against many little jabs by the narrative on how he is too weak to fight off an archangel, unlike Sam. And that gleefully taken up in fandom.

But I do think him being aware holds more potential overall. I reckon they will show this by him putting up a fight and Michael having somewhat of an internal struggle. And I do hope that ultimately leads to Dean at least having a hand in extricating himself from Michael. Not that just gets a goofy comedy relief scene on a beach and then the others do everything. 

Also, ideally, it should mean Dean retains some memory from the event which would give a strategic advantage later on when - I guess - Michael is still a problem, just in a different vessel.

I think Dabb will take joy in those little jabs.  Same way I think Sam will ultimately save the day by finding a spell. 

I'm not even sure how much screen time Jensen is going to have.  So far there is only one confirmed day of him filming.  Danneel posted a pic of her flying to San Francisco and Jensen was spotted at a Target on Tuesday of this week. 

I know that not seeing him on set isn't proof he wasn't filming that day, but it seems like the premier is going to be more Sam, Cas and Jack trying to find Dean than actually seeing Michael.   I hope I'm wrong about this.

[Aeryn13]

Yes, if the story only lasts a little bit, I want it really focused on Michael. And even if it lasts longer, I`m fine with just seeing Michael for a while instead of Dean. I`m not fine with not seeing a lot of Jensen.  

[catrox14]

I can see Dean playing with the army toys before he watched Mary burn on the ceiling because it was a game and not real. Dean's life got fucking real, real fast the moment she was in flames and  John put BabySam in Dean's arms at 4 years old and told him to run. IMO, that moment of trauma for Dean set his path to protecting Sam at all costs.  Then John ramped it up to 100 when Dean was 9 or 10, probably started before that since Dean said he'd been over that a million times, in Something Wicked, as Dean was left alone to look after Sam a lot. And given how he made food for them be it out of a box or heating up a can of Spaghettios, Dean was the caregiver. And when Dean wanted to have a moment of older child fun, independent of Sam, like play video games, it resulted in Sam nearly being killed and he was held responsible by John, given the way John treated Dean in the immediate aftermath of that event.  IMO, if Dean did play with them it was for Sam's benefit so Sam could be normal. Maybe a moment of pleasure in it, but I don't think it was at all on a regular basis for Dean. Sam, however, I do think played with them on a regular basis given he was shown playing with a toy airplane in Bad Boys, so playing with green army men would fit.  

 

I legit don't know what Sam could do that would break Dean out of AU Michael's grasp, unless Sam's life is in peril , again.  It won't be Mary's pictures, because Dean's new reality is that Mary is not who he remembered. AU Bobby wouldn't have any reason to save Dean really. 

Cas would stand the best chance because he knows how an archangel might think.  And he's been in Lucifer so maybe there is something there for him to utilize. 

Too bad Crowley is dead now, because I think despite their falling out at the end, he would be the best person to try and get Dean out. He could just possess him like he did with Gadreel and Casifer.

I wonder if AU Michael is going to visit Sister Jo and they have a thing.  Maybe we aren't getting any reports because it's Sister Jo and Michael!Dean doing some canoodling? I mean it's Buck Lemming writing the 2nd ep and I wouldn't put it past them.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

But I do think him being aware holds more potential overall. I reckon they will show this by him putting up a fight and Michael having somewhat of an internal struggle. And I do hope that ultimately leads to Dean at least having a hand in extricating himself from Michael. Not that just gets a goofy comedy relief scene on a beach and then the others do everything. 

Also, ideally, it should mean Dean retains some memory from the event which would give a strategic advantage later on when - I guess - Michael is still a problem, just in a different vessel.

I think his being aware holds more potential also.

Michael WILL have to quell him somehow in order to remain in control, though. There are many avenues they could take with that-some good, some less so. My ideal scenario would be Michael keeping Dean "busy" inside through hunts that have the potential to really kill Dean if he's killed in the mindscape. My least favorite would involve Michael convincing Dean to not resist for the "good" of both Heaven and Earth and possibly even using his lack of self-worth against him, ie., "Your loved ones don't really need you Dean; and in fact they're better off w/o you."

In any case, I want Dean to be a part of freeing himself. In fact, I need him to be a part of it for this sl to work for me.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

In any case, I want Dean to be a part of freeing himself. In fact, I need him to be a part of it for this sl to work for m

As much as I want this, I don't believe they will not let Sam save Dean from AU Michael.  So all I can do now is hope it's not in a way that denigrates Dean or ends up with Sam making it about himself with another round of " I feel so unnecessarily guilty for....something.."

[Aeryn13]

I hope it is a joint effort. I`m not expecting Dean to do it all by himself but having a part in it would be nice.  

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

I hope it is a joint effort. I`m not expecting Dean to do it all by himself but having a part in it would be nice.  

My dream scenario is Sam driving the car up to Michael Dean and he can hear the rattle of the legos in the heater and get the strength to throw Michael out. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Misha has been 'sneaking out' to tweet with his bloodied/bruised face as recently as last night. I don't know who's available to do this to an angel right now besides Mean! And why isn't he healing himself?

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Misha has been 'sneaking out' to tweet with his bloodied/bruised face as recently as last night. I don't know who's available to do this to an angel right now besides Mean! And why isn't he healing himself?

Lucifer. Maybe Rowena has him in a spell. 

 

So Jensen was spotted in Napa at a Target on Monday.  Would he have flown up to Vancouver to film in studio on Tuesday and Wednesday and then head to Comic Con on Thursday?  They are usually around for more than the Sunday event. 

Here's some spec.  Could they being doing some location filming with Jensen and that's why he's not been spotted on set or in Vancouver? 

ETA: Re:  Cas

Maybe it's a flashback scene to when AU Michael possessed Dean.  Perhaps Cas tried to intervene and AU Michael hurt him before he went to fight Lucifer.

Edited July 18, 2018 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe it's a flashback scene to when AU Michael possessed Dean.  Perhaps Cas tried to intervene and AU Michael hurt him before he went to fight Lucifer.

Didn't we see Cas after that, when Not!Bobby and Mary came into the room?

I thought wished hoped maybe a location shoot was the answer to the lack of Jensen in Vancouver (or the lack of blue tape anyway). But wouldn't there have been some kind of leak - paparazzi or fan, etc - that would've seen him filming? I just can't envision a season premiere without him, but I can't find a reasonable explanation, either.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Didn't we see Cas after that, when Not!Bobby and Mary came into the room?

Ohhh that's right.  Hmmm...well then I doan't have any good answer. Maybe AU Michael took Cas' grace?

[Casseiopeia]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So Jensen was spotted in Napa at a Target on Monday.

So why don't I know about these things in advance???  Napa is about 45 min from where I live. :(

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

So why don't I know about these things in advance???  Napa is about 45 min from where I live. :(

I feel your pain. I'm in San Diego and they'll be in my backyard for SDCC LOL

[catrox14]

From the SuperNormal thread

 

 

9 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

This seems to be the consensus. Dean is charismatic for sure and I'll miss him too.  

Ohhhh - but I just long for something different.  For Jensen to have a chance to flex his acting muscles.  Even when we have Dean, he's not respected by this motley crew in charge anyway.  The marionette fight for instance.  I still cannot believe Jensen voiced his feelings out loud at the convention even going to the point of acting it out with Rob.  Bravo, Jensen!  The cheers from the crowd were music to my ears.  

I will miss Dean desperately and I hope that is the point of whatever they come up with.  To make us miss him.  To keep him present by his absence.  To hear others talk about Dean and what he has meant to them and by extension the show.  I want Sam and Cas to be broken that he's gone and they think they can't save him.  I want them to really understand and appreciate him for who he is as a person, not what he can do to save them.  I want them to appreciate him for all his faults and virtues.  And maybe even see some of the virtue in his faults, (his loyalty to those he loves that sometimes takes him to extremes to save them.  For them to understand some of his trauma and pain.  I just want the show to acknowledge that as much as they do other characters. Not for a moment but for a time. 

I want Mary to deeply regret her ignoring him for so long after her resurrection. For not being there for him even when she could have been.  Yes, I know , I know she was traumatized at her own resurrection. And Dean gave her that time to find herself.  He kept his distance for the most part, even as it upset him to do so, yet she ended up being even further away by working with the MoL.   It doesn't matter to me that she thought she was doing something to make up for her deal because that action continued to keep her at a distance from Dean.  (I am not including Sam in this because he seemed fine with her absence). And I am focusing on Dean here....

  Dean lost it after Cas died.  And yet Cas apparently continues to think he doesn't have a place with the Winchesters?  Cas...wake up, man.  Dean has been the best friend you have EVER had.  He is your family and so is Sam and Jack.  

If Jack got a bunch of flashbacks in 13.23 to show his issues etc, maybe the show will give us some clips of Dean whilst the others talk about him.  

Basically, I want them to mourn him and give him a great eulogy.  I would love it if AU Michael is changed by Dean, that maybe AU Michael learns something about humanity through Dean's memories. 

I know I won't get any of that but that's my hope.

[gonzosgirrl]

@catrox14 I agree with every word. I said a much shorter, less eloquent version of it in the other thread. Thank you for this! I know it will never happen but damn, I would give a kidney for even one of your wishes to come true.

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If Jack got a bunch of flashbacks in 13.23 to show his issues etc, maybe the show will give us some clips of Dean whilst the others talk about him.  

Basically, I want them to mourn him and give him a great eulogy. 

This is the only way I can accept Jensen/Dean not being in the season premiere - if Dean is there via flashbacks and they are positive/meaningful.

[Res]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

From the SuperNormal thread

 

 

I will miss Dean desperately and I hope that is the point of whatever they come up with.  To make us miss him.  To keep him present by his absence.  To hear others talk about Dean and what he has meant to them and by extension the show.  I want Sam and Cas to be broken that he's gone and they think they can't save him.  I want them to really understand and appreciate him for who he is as a person, not what he can do to save them.  I want them to appreciate him for all his faults and virtues.  And maybe even see some of the virtue in his faults, (his loyalty to those he loves that sometimes takes him to extremes to save them.  For them to understand some of his trauma and pain.  I just want the show to acknowledge that as much as they do other characters. Not for a moment but for a time. 

I want Mary to deeply regret her ignoring him for so long after her resurrection. For not being there for him even when she could have been.  Yes, I know , I know she was traumatized at her own resurrection. And Dean gave her that time to find herself.  He kept his distance for the most part, even as it upset him to do so, yet she ended up being even further away by working with the MoL.   It doesn't matter to me that she thought she was doing something to make up for her deal because that action continued to keep her at a distance from Dean.  (I am not including Sam in this because he seemed fine with her absence). And I am focusing on Dean here....

  Dean lost it after Cas died.  And yet Cas apparently continues to think he doesn't have a place with the Winchesters?  Cas...wake up, man.  Dean has been the best friend you have EVER had.  He is your family and so is Sam and Jack.  

If Jack got a bunch of flashbacks in 13.23 to show his issues etc, maybe the show will give us some clips of Dean whilst the others talk about him.  

Basically, I want them to mourn him and give him a great eulogy.  I would love it if AU Michael is changed by Dean, that maybe AU Michael learns something about humanity through Dean's memories. 

I know I won't get any of that but that's my hope.

I WANT THIS SOOO MUCH!!!!! You have no idea how much I want this! I would give anything for this!

Unfortunately, I'm sure the conformists will win out as they seem to be the more vocal majority. Plus, I'm sure these writers will not make it about Dean at all other than how stupid a decision this was.

[ILoveReading]

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

From the SuperNormal thread

 

 

I will miss Dean desperately and I hope that is the point of whatever they come up with.  To make us miss him.  To keep him present by his absence.  To hear others talk about Dean and what he has meant to them and by extension the show.  I want Sam and Cas to be broken that he's gone and they think they can't save him.  I want them to really understand and appreciate him for who he is as a person, not what he can do to save them.  I want them to appreciate him for all his faults and virtues.  And maybe even see some of the virtue in his faults, (his loyalty to those he loves that sometimes takes him to extremes to save them.  For them to understand some of his trauma and pain.  I just want the show to acknowledge that as much as they do other characters. Not for a moment but for a time. 

I want Mary to deeply regret her ignoring him for so long after her resurrection. For not being there for him even when she could have been.  Yes, I know , I know she was traumatized at her own resurrection. And Dean gave her that time to find herself.  He kept his distance for the most part, even as it upset him to do so, yet she ended up being even further away by working with the MoL.   It doesn't matter to me that she thought she was doing something to make up for her deal because that action continued to keep her at a distance from Dean.  (I am not including Sam in this because he seemed fine with her absence). And I am focusing on Dean here....

  Dean lost it after Cas died.  And yet Cas apparently continues to think he doesn't have a place with the Winchesters?  Cas...wake up, man.  Dean has been the best friend you have EVER had.  He is your family and so is Sam and Jack.  

If Jack got a bunch of flashbacks in 13.23 to show his issues etc, maybe the show will give us some clips of Dean whilst the others talk about him.  

Basically, I want them to mourn him and give him a great eulogy.  I would love it if AU Michael is changed by Dean, that maybe AU Michael learns something about humanity through Dean's memories. 

I know I won't get any of that but that's my hope.

Catrox, you read my mind.  This is exactly what I want. 

But then I remember 11.22.   I don't expect any of this

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

From the SuperNormal thread

 

 

I will miss Dean desperately and I hope that is the point of whatever they come up with.  To make us miss him.  To keep him present by his absence.  To hear others talk about Dean and what he has meant to them and by extension the show.  I want Sam and Cas to be broken that he's gone and they think they can't save him.  I want them to really understand and appreciate him for who he is as a person, not what he can do to save them.  I want them to appreciate him for all his faults and virtues.  And maybe even see some of the virtue in his faults, (his loyalty to those he loves that sometimes takes him to extremes to save them.  For them to understand some of his trauma and pain.  I just want the show to acknowledge that as much as they do other characters. Not for a moment but for a time. 

I want Mary to deeply regret her ignoring him for so long after her resurrection. For not being there for him even when she could have been.  Yes, I know , I know she was traumatized at her own resurrection. And Dean gave her that time to find herself.  He kept his distance for the most part, even as it upset him to do so, yet she ended up being even further away by working with the MoL.   It doesn't matter to me that she thought she was doing something to make up for her deal because that action continued to keep her at a distance from Dean.  (I am not including Sam in this because he seemed fine with her absence). And I am focusing on Dean here....

  Dean lost it after Cas died.  And yet Cas apparently continues to think he doesn't have a place with the Winchesters?  Cas...wake up, man.  Dean has been the best friend you have EVER had.  He is your family and so is Sam and Jack.  

If Jack got a bunch of flashbacks in 13.23 to show his issues etc, maybe the show will give us some clips of Dean whilst the others talk about him.  

Basically, I want them to mourn him and give him a great eulogy.  I would love it if AU Michael is changed by Dean, that maybe AU Michael learns something about humanity through Dean's memories. 

I know I won't get any of that but that's my hope.

I couldn't agree more with every word of this post. Sadly, even the last sentence, though.

And because of that this post also gets a million likes from me
 

Quote

 

This seems to be the consensus. Dean is charismatic for sure and I'll miss him too.  

Ohhhh - but I just long for something different.  For Jensen to have a chance to flex his acting muscles.  Even when we have Dean, he's not respected by this motley crew in charge anyway.  The marionette fight for instance.  I still cannot believe Jensen voiced his feelings out loud at the convention even going to the point of acting it out with Rob.  Bravo, Jensen!  The cheers from the crowd were music to my ears.

 

I think if they don't let him run with Michael for more than three episodes, he should really and truly consider moving on after his present contract is up. I mean he wanted more out of Demon Dean and they refused. If he doesn't get more quality time as an actor who enjoys his craft and who wants to continue to grow in that capacity out of this sl, then he's just asking for them to continue treating him(and no few of his fans) the same way that they always have in the past where it concerns that kind of artistic growth.

[Casseiopeia]

Unfortunately with this current crop of writers we aren't going to get a compelling story.  Jensen can only sell his character to a certain point.  I can't look at the list of writers and come up with even one that will do this story line justice.  Dabb doesn't care (he'll be pissed about WS), Berens won't either (same thing).  I don't even want to think about the Duo.  The rest don't know or care about the history of Dean Winchester or Michael and if they try to write an arc for Michael/Dean it will completely trash canon.  The hints so far are puzzling at best. 

I have a bad feeling about this.  We all (including Jensen) might be wanting a quick death for Michael/Dean by about the 3rd episode.

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I have a bad feeling about this.  We all (including Jensen) might be wanting a quick death for Michael/Dean by about the 3rd episode.

Many had a "bad feeling" about Demon Dean, too.

I have a great feeling about Michael/Dean, tbh. I have much less of a great feeling about Dean, at this point. And yes, all thanks for that courtesy of Dabb, Singer, and co. for the last two seasons-at least on that we can agree.

[Bobcatkitten]

Do we have any idea if Jensen has filmed at all yet? Talk about bitter - I can handle no Dean. I can't handle no Jensen. 

[catrox14]

From the SuperNormal thread

Quote

However, I think Dean being Michael at all is a result of them listening to Twitter (or wherever), so there's that for those of you excited by this

 

 I don't recall much clamor for Michael!Dean on SM  in a real way until, and after the show, chose to name drop Michael in the s11 premiere along with Lucifer.  Before that it was mostly Michael!Dean being lamented as a lost opportunity/storyline being dropped with no expectation that it would ever come to pass.  

I can make a case that maybe they planted the seed in the s11 premiere by name dropping Michael.  And another follow up with the introduction of the Michael Sword in s12  and seeing Michael in paintings in the background. It was then IMO, that some elements of fandom started amping up the discussion on SM.  I really don't think it was the tail wagging the dog, but the dog sniffing out if there would be a positive response to it. And maybe at that point, deciding to give it a go.  
 

33 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I can't look at the list of writers and come up with even one that will do this story line justice.

I think Steve Yockey who seems to still be on the staff worthy of writing good stuff for Michael!Dean.  However, Dabb is writing the premiere, the awful duo the 2nd ep and Berens the 3rd ep and he's the one that asked about a bearded Dean on Twitter. I used to think Berens did right by Dean in s10 and s11 but now...not so much.  If they keep Michael!Dean out of the episodes like they did Castiel then maybe Yockey will have a chance to write for him, but I sure as Hell am not banking on that whatsoever.

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

From the SuperNormal thread

 

 I don't recall much clamor for Michael!Dean on SM  in a real way until, and after the show, chose to name drop Michael in the s11 premiere along with Lucifer.  Before that it was mostly Michael!Dean being lamented as a lost opportunity/storyline being dropped with no expectation that it would ever come to pass.  

I can make a case that maybe they planted the seed in the s11 premiere by name dropping Michael.  And another follow up with the introduction of the Michael Sword in s12  and seeing Michael in paintings in the background. It was then IMO, that some elements of fandom started amping up the discussion on SM.  I really don't think it was the tail wagging the dog, but the dog sniffing out if there would be a positive response to it. And maybe at that point, deciding to give it a go.  

When Sam was given the kill with the Spear in that awful Perez outing in S12, I remember there being cries of passionate outrage from every corner of the Dean fandom. Maybe that WAS one of the things that finally convinced Dabb to go for it, but I still contend that Jensen wanting and desiring a more challenging role was the big thing. I mean he auditioned for and won the role of Ajax in Deadpool, but they wouldn't let him do it.

Why would he have even auditioned if he didn't want that kind of a new and different acting challenge?

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Do we have any idea if Jensen has filmed at all yet? Talk about bitter - I can handle no Dean. I can't handle no Jensen. 

There were 4 shooting days last week and four this week.  Given the lack of blue on the tape ball photo, it doesn't appear that Jensen filmed the first day.  There was one confirmed day when the make up person said she was getting ready to do Jensen's make up.  Im not sure about the other two days.    It appears that Jensen spent this week in California. 

So by appearances Jensen filmed 3 days at most, which is probably about 12-15 min of screen time. 

So this storyline doesn't seem to be Dabb's priority.  Im sure that's reserved for woobie Jack. 

[AwesomO4000]

41 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Many had a "bad feeling" about Demon Dean, too.

I have a great feeling about Michael/Dean, tbh.

The main reason I had a bad feeling about Demon Dean was because of the Angelus factor. Even though Demon Dean was a demon, he was still a twisted version of Dean. Because of that, I knew the chances that Demon Dean would actually be or do anything awful or be a recurring villain in the storyline was very small. Many shows - even the arguably very good Angel: The Series - won't take the chance of showing a version of one of the main characters in that kind of light and instead end up wimping out. So for me, there wasn't going to be much advancement in the plotline, but more of the same. I truthfully didn't want to see excuses week after week for Demon Dean not to do anything really bad, because after a while the combination of the mark and being a demon should've reared its ugly head, so excuses as to why that wouldn't happen would've ended up being repetitive and silly, in my opinion. And the evidence of that couldn't have been much more annoying than the whole deflection of "Look! Even Sam is doing way worse things than Demon Dean!" I would've dreaded what else they would've had Sam do if they continued the Demon Dean storyline for too long.

In contrast, AU Michael is in no way Dean. He's just inhabiting Dean, so the Angelus factor shouldn't come into play. Actually the more bad Michael does, the more chance for drama with Dean later on (not that I would necessarily want more Dean guilt, but for the writers...) The only monkey wrench in that would be if they wanted to redeem Michael later on for some reason a la Gadreel, but I don't think they'd do that to Dean so...

[Myrelle]

19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The main reason I had a bad feeling about Demon Dean was because of the Angelus factor. Even though Demon Dean was a demon, he was still a twisted version of Dean. Because of that, I knew the chances that Demon Dean would actually be or do anything awful or be a recurring villain in the storyline was very small. Many shows - even the arguably very good Angel: The Series - won't take the chance of showing a version of one of the main characters in that kind of light and instead end up wimping out. So for me, there wasn't going to be much advancement in the plotline, but more of the same. I truthfully didn't want to see excuses week after week for Demon Dean not to do anything really bad, because after a while the combination of the mark and being a demon should've reared its ugly head, so excuses as to why that wouldn't happen would've ended up being repetitive and silly, in my opinion. And the evidence of that couldn't have been much more annoying than the whole deflection of "Look! Even Sam is doing way worse things than Demon Dean!" I would've dreaded what else they would've had Sam do if they continued the Demon Dean storyline for too long.

In contrast, AU Michael is in no way Dean. He's just inhabiting Dean, so the Angelus factor shouldn't come into play. Actually the more bad Michael does, the more chance for drama with Dean later on (not that I would necessarily want more Dean guilt, but for the writers...) The only monkey wrench in that would be if they wanted to redeem Michael later on for some reason a la Gadreel, but I don't think they'd do that to Dean so...

Taking my response to the Dean thread since it's the closest thing that we have to a Jensen thread

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

Many had a "bad feeling" about Demon Dean, too.

I have a great feeling about Michael/Dean, tbh. I have much less of a great feeling about Dean, at this point. And yes, all thanks for that courtesy of Dabb, Singer, and co. for the last two seasons-at least on that we can agree.

 Dabb can't even put an entire episode together much less a 9-11 ep arc (if  they want Dean back by the 300th) that is why I have a "bad feeling".

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Do we have any idea if Jensen has filmed at all yet? Talk about bitter - I can handle no Dean. I can't handle no Jensen. 

At Chicon last weekend Jared said he had been filming 4(?) days and it was hard to hear because the fans were cheering the start of S14 Jensen said "how was it?" or something like that.  It indicated that Jensen hadn't filmed yet?   But that would make sense since the brothers aren't together.  They would film their coverage at different times.  Maybe they did Jared's first and then did Jensen's?

Maybe this is why they (the J's) want M/D to last all season.  That cuts down on filming schedules if they aren't doing a lot of scenes together.

[Myrelle]

22 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

 Dabb can't even put an entire episode together much less a 9-11 ep arc (if  they want Dean back by the 300th) that is why I have a "bad feeling".

I totally get that, but I also think that Jensen is the one actor on this show who is able to make any storyline he's given 10 times better through his performance, IF he's given any kind of meat to work with within the storyline. And they're going to have to give Michael something more than they have seemingly been willing to give Dean-just as they had to do with Demon Dean.

As I just posted in the Dean thread. For me, it's going to be all about the performance again-just as it was with Demon Dean, IMO; and In Jensen I Trust more than any other actor/writer/producer/showrunner on this show to do and deliver for us, in that regard.

[catrox14]

Listening to Jensen's interview with Ausiello, one thing that immediately jumped out at me is Sam taking a leadership role ( to find a way to help and my bitter side went....

"Oh....so this is why they gave Jensen the opportunity to play AU Michael".  They need it for General Sam Winchester's budding leadership storyline which they started in s12. (LOL as if he wasn't in leadership roles before). Maybe they think they need to completely remove Dean from the board to make sure that folks know that Sam is the leader now. 

Now I have little enthusiasm that we'll see much of MIchael.  I'm also a little nonplussed at Jensen saying he's being given more direction on how to play Michael than he has been before and I wonder who is giving him that feedback. If it's Singer and Dabb...I'm kind of worried TBH that they want him to be whatever they've written him to be.  If it's Thomas Wright....I'll feel better about Jensen's creative form and ability to layer the role.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Listening to Jensen's interview with Ausiello, one thing that immediately jumped out at me is Sam taking a leadership role ( to find a way to help and my bitter side went....

"Oh....so this is why they gave Jensen the opportunity to play AU Michael".  They need it for General Sam Winchester's budding leadership storyline which they started in s12. (LOL as if he wasn't in leadership roles before). Maybe they think they need to completely remove Dean from the board to make sure that folks know that Sam is the leader now. 

Now I have little enthusiasm that we'll see much of MIchael.  I'm also a little nonplussed at Jensen saying he's being given more direction on how to play Michael than he has been before and I wonder who is giving him that feedback. If it's Singer and Dabb...I'm kind of worried TBH that they want him to be whatever they've written him to be.  If it's Thomas Wright....I'll feel better about Jensen's creative form and ability to layer the role.

Right there with you on all of this, but especially the bolded part-and it's not just Dean who they had to remove-it's Jensen, too-and more so, IMO.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm also a little nonplussed at Jensen saying he's being given more direction on how to play Michael than he has been before and I wonder who is giving him that feedback. If it's Singer and Dabb...I'm kind of worried TBH that they want him to be whatever they've written him to be.  If it's Thomas Wright....I'll feel better about Jensen's creative form and ability to layer the role.

And yes, red flags flew up for me too when he said this.

[gonzosgirrl]

Maybe it's just 'more direction' because he basically doesn't need any direction to be Dean?

Yeah, I know. Dabb. I'll believe they haven't screwed Jensen/Dean over when I see it on the screen.

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe it's just 'more direction' because he basically doesn't need any direction to be Dean?

Yeah, I know. Dabb. I'll believe they haven't screwed Jensen/Dean over when I see it on the screen.

I think that is what Jensen meant.  He knows how Dean would react to any situation.  He knows that character forwards and backwards.   Jensen it seems is referring to how they want that character to be interpreted in order to tell Michaels story.

[ILoveReading]

If they make Sam the leader, what happens when Dean comes back.  Is he going to be expected just to follow meekly by Sam's side?  Why does Sam even need to rally Dean's family into helping find them.  It's like in 12.22 when he was preaching to the choir.  

I don't get why they seem so determined lately to push Sam as the leader of team free will when that's always been Deans' role.

[ILoveReading]

I have to admit with Jensen saying there will be a bit of a time jump, I'm worried we are just going to get a repeat of the purgatory storyline all over again.  With Dean being rescued in the first or 2nd ep and the story being told in flashbacks. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I have to admit with Jensen saying there will be a bit of a time jump, I'm worried we are just going to get a repeat of the purgatory storyline all over again.  With Dean being rescued in the first or 2nd ep and the story being told in flashbacks. 

Yeah, that`s totally what I thought, too, when I watched the latest interview. Which is really the most ineffective storytelling because you take all the suspense from it if you already know how it turns out. I hope Jensen wasn`t refering to that.  

[catrox14]

I totally missed the time jump thing. Ugh