These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[MysteryGuest]

All three of them have already gone dark at least a few times, so I'm hoping none of them turn evil.  I'd be perfectly happy with bad ass, however.  I'd love for once to see TFW portrayed as the competent and smart guys they are.  They've been doing this for a damn long time, and shouldn't be as easily duped as they are, week in and week out, just for plot purposes.  These are the men that God left in charge of the universe...they should be allowed to look the part.

[Wayward Son]

56 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

All three of them have already gone dark at least a few times, so I'm hoping none of them turn evil.  I'd be perfectly happy with bad ass, however.  I'd love for once to see TFW portrayed as the competent and smart guys they are.  They've been doing this for a damn long time, and shouldn't be as easily duped as they are, week in and week out, just for plot purposes.  These are the men that God left in charge of the universe...they should be allowed to look the part.

Well he actually left Sam and Dean in charge of the universe. Dabb’s narrative has consistently been that Cas is pretty inconsequential to the grand scheme of things and should be considered the brothers lackey if he’s lucky enough to even be that. 

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Well he actually left Sam and Dean in charge of the universe. Dabb’s narrative has consistently been that Cas is pretty inconsequential to the grand scheme of things and should be considered the brothers lackey if he’s lucky enough to even be that. 

Well, Dabb's an ass.  Sam and Dean certainly don't think of Cas that way, and neither do most of the fans.  Frankly, Chuck was an ass, too.  He left a big mess behind for two humans and a de-powered angel to fix.

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, Dabb's an ass.  Sam and Dean certainly don't think of Cas that way, and neither do most of the fans.  Frankly, Chuck was an ass, too.  He left a big mess behind for two humans and a de-powered angel to fix.

...an angel he couldn't be arsed to talk with directly himself either.  It's good he did repair Cas' body at least after Amara tortured him and Lucifer.  Too bad he didn't have a chat with Cas

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I like this take on Dean in this episode. I thought it was Jensen trying to not laugh but maybe not

 

http://dustydreamsanddirtyscars.tumblr.com/post/171171496766

No, no, no, no, no to the idea of Dean getting to be the one to kill Lucifer! He deserves it least. It should be Sam or Cas (and evenCas  is a long way behind Sam on the ‘has the right to kill Lucifer list’). Dean already got to kill YED despite him affecting Sam more. Sam deserves to kill Lucifer. 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

No, no, no, no, no to the idea of Dean getting to be the one to kill Lucifer! He deserves it least. It should be Sam or Cas (and evenCas  is a long way behind Sam on the ‘has the right to kill Lucifer list’). Dean already got to kill YED despite him affecting Sam more. Sam deserves to kill Lucifer. 

 

Sam killed Alastair who was Dean's tormenter in Hell. Seems like a fair exchange for Dean to kill Lucifer who was Sam's tormenter.

ETA: I love that out of that entire piece your takeaway is NO Dean does not get to kill Lucifer. LOL

Edited February 23, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam killed Alastair who was Dean's tormenter in Hell. Seems like a fair exchange for Dean to kill Lucifer who was Sam's tormenter.

ETA: I love that out of that entire piece your takeaway is NO Dean does not get to kill Lucifer. LOL

Dean already got to kill YED instead of Sam. Dean doesn’t need any more exchanges in the kill to make things even. 

 

And LOL I might as well keep my viewpoint consistent ;)

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Dean already got to kill YED instead of Sam. Dean doesn’t need any more exchanges in the kill to make things even. 

Sam killed Ramiel and Cas killed Dagon, so the Princes of Hell are all equal kills now for TFW with Asmodeus still in play for someone to kill. 

So at this point IMO I still say Dean killing Lucifer = Sam killing Alastair.  .

So to me it's still absolutely okay with me if Dean kills Lucifer.

[catrox14]

That said, I'm 100% sure Jack will end up killing Lucifer. 

[Wayward Son]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam killed Ramiel and Cas killed Dagon, so the Princes of Hell are all equal kills now for TFW with Asmodeus still in play for someone to kill. 

So at this point IMO I still say Dean killing Lucifer = Sam killing Alastair.  .

So to me it's still absolutely okay with me if Dean kills Lucifer.

I’m talking about emotional connection and history. Azazel murdered Sam’s girlfriend, contaminated him with demon blood, had him stalked all his life on top of the general crappy childhood he caused both by killing Mary. Ramiel was a MOTW with no prior connection to the boys. Not the same thing. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sam killed Ramiel and Cas killed Dagon, so the Princes of Hell are all equal kills now for TFW with Asmodeus still in play for someone to kill. 

So at this point IMO I still say Dean killing Lucifer = Sam killing Alastair.  .

So to me it's still absolutely okay with me if Dean kills Lucifer.

Just wanted to chime in to point out that Sam also got to kill a hellhound twice even though Dean was the one that was literally ripped apart by one. Shouldn't he have been the one to get that chance? Or is this question too BvJ?

[DittyDotDot]

I could care less who kills what and I'm damn sure not keeping score on that front. I have even less of an investment in who kills Lucifer. I say just kill him by whatever means necessary. It doesn't even have to make sense. At this point, I'd be fine with him leaping off a building after all his grace is depleted--and hey, maybe he could land in a fire of holy oil and be burned to a crisp for good measure, too? Seriously, whatever means necessary at this point. I don't even care if stunt angel No. 5 kills him. I just want him gone.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I could care less who kills what and I'm damn sure not keeping score on that front. I have even less of an investment in who kills Lucifer. I say just kill him by whatever means necessary. It doesn't even have to make sense. At this point, I'd be fine with him leaping off a building after all his grace is depleted--and hey, maybe he could land in a fire of holy oil and be burned to a crisp for good measure, too? Seriously, whatever means necessary at this point. I don't even care if stunt angel No. 5 kills him. I just want him gone.

Alas, even this wouldn't mean he's gone for good. There are no rules at all any more when it comes to 'death' on this show. It really has jumped the shark in that respect, going from somewhat of an inside joke to sheer nonsense.

Wouldn't it be something if this was the cosmic repercussion of Dean killing Death though? Nobody has to stay dead, they just don't know it (until they do). Heh.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I could care less who kills what and I'm damn sure not keeping score on that front. I have even less of an investment in who kills Lucifer. I say just kill him by whatever means necessary. It doesn't even have to make sense. At this point, I'd be fine with him leaping off a building after all his grace is depleted--and hey, maybe he could land in a fire of holy oil and be burned to a crisp for good measure, too? Seriously, whatever means necessary at this point. I don't even care if stunt angel No. 5 kills him. I just want him gone.

I don't know how this even ended up in spoilers, TBH. I  posted something in the Dean thread cause it was about Dean and his reaction to seeing Lucifer again and someone on Tumblr's analysis of that scene.

At this point, though, I don't even think Lucifer is going to be killed. I think he's on a redemption arc and that's gonna be worse than who kills him.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know how this even ended up in spoilers, TBH. I  posted something in the Dean thread cause it was about Dean and his reaction to seeing Lucifer again and someone on Tumblr's analysis of that scene.

Well, the post wasn't just about Dean's reaction to seeing Lucifer, but also talked about the possibility of them killing Lucifer this season. Which has not happened yet, so it's speculation and since the person who moved it here was bitter about the idea that Dean might get to kill Lucifer, it seems pretty straightforward to how it ended up here. We don't have a bitter speculation only thread... .

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

At this point, though, I don't even think Lucifer is going to be killed. I think he's on a redemption arc and that's gonna be worse than who kills him.

I don't think Lucifer is going to be killed either, I was just expressing my wish that he would. But, I don't think he's on a redemption arc either. I think the show will keep him around to be an antagonist for at least one more season. I don't think Lucifer is redeemable and I think the show recognizes that. But you never know, they've done crazier things on this show before.

Edited February 23, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[Wayward Son]

Some random thoughts on Jack and Lucifer. 

 

This is dependent on the speculation of some users on here that Jack’s popularity will lead to them wanting to keep him. What if the writers solution to the issue of his powers is to have his grace drained, or at least somewhat weakened by Lucifer. That would serve the purpose of weakening Jack so he isn’t too powerful and setting Lucifer as bigger and badder than ever before. 

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Some random thoughts on Jack and Lucifer. 

 

This is dependent on the speculation of some users on here that Jack’s popularity will lead to them wanting to keep him. What if the writers solution to the issue of his powers is to have his grace drained, or at least somewhat weakened by Lucifer. That would serve the purpose of weakening Jack so he isn’t too powerful and setting Lucifer as bigger and badder than ever before. 

It could work and I wouldn't be surprised if he does stick around, but I still think Jack will end up in the Alternate. It puts him and his powers out of the way, but leaves the possibility that he could cross back over and do a guest spot from time to time. I know he's become popular, but I'm not sure that will be enough to keep him around. For one, it's not only up to TPTB, the actor may not want to stick around either. He's young and might want to pursue other opportunities right now rather than signing on for another season on an aging show? 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Alas, even this wouldn't mean he's gone for good. There are no rules at all any more when it comes to 'death' on this show. It really has jumped the shark in that respect, going from somewhat of an inside joke to sheer nonsense.

Wouldn't it be something if this was the cosmic repercussion of Dean killing Death though? Nobody has to stay dead, they just don't know it (until they do). Heh.

I was always on board with this being something that SHOULD be tied to Dean killing Death, that what's dead won't stay dead if it died after Dean killed Death and before Billie got promoted. That should have been the case. I would still accept that as the reasoning.

[Castiels Cat]

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That said, I'm 100% sure Jack will end up killing Lucifer. 

I am pretty sure Lucifer is getting redeemed.  Hey if feeling human feels can redeem Metatron then it is certainly possible for Lucifer. After all Metatron killed Dean  slowly and with extrene glee, was responsible for Kevin's death and used Cas and stole his grace.  

My guess is that Lucifer begrudgingly goes out in hero mode dying to protect Jack, avenge Jack and/or prove something to Jack.

[ILoveReading]

My guess is that no one kills Lucifer because Mark Pellegrino is a guest a Paley Fest and for some reason Dabb is obsessed with the character.

[Castiels Cat]

On 2/21/2018 at 5:58 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

He didn't telegraph anything - he said it outright. But then Jack got coated in cinnamon sugar and Dean declared him family, so, yeah.

Dean declared him family after Jack found Mary alive and came up with a plan to save her. He declared Charlie family for much less.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I am pretty sure Lucifer is getting redeemed.  Hey if feeling human feels can redeem Metatron then it is certainly possible for Lucifer. After all Metatron killed Dean  slowly and with extrene glee, was responsible for Kevin's death and used Cas and stole his grace.  

My guess is that Lucifer begrudgingly goes out in hero mode dying to protect Jack, avenge Jack and/or prove something to Jack.

My point was more that IF someone kills Lucifer it will not be any of TFW and I also said that Lucifer is on a redemption arc in another comment and I absolutely do not want it and will seriously have to reconsider whether I continue watching a show which makes Lucifer remotely heroic on any level.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean declared him family after Jack found Mary alive and came up with a plan to save her. He declared Charlie family for much less.

I don't understand this series of comments.  You said Dean telegraphed that he would kill Jack.  Gonzosgrrrl pointed out that it wasn't any kind of  telegraph but the show  outright stating that Dean would kill Jack.  Dean morphed his position once he tried to find Mary, which was such an abrupt about face that I wonder if Jack whammied him when they mind melded.  At any rate, that Dean now sees Jack as family, doesn't IMO preclude Dean from possibly killing Jack if the time comes. . I can see it now becoming a sad thing that Dean may have to kill Jack if he goes darkside even if he sees him as family. Of course that stupid promo thing implies that someone on TFW is gonna go dark side  so maybe it's Dean who goes dark and Jack kills Dean to save someone.  That would be a twist.

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

My guess is that no one kills Lucifer because Mark Pellegrino is a guest a Paley Fest and for some reason Dabb is obsessed with the character.

I can't decide if he's obsessed with Lucifer for Lucifer reasons or Sam reasons. I hope that the announce Lucifer and Jack are being spun off into their own series of Lucifer's Family and then we can just keep TFW in SPN.

[Castiels Cat]

17 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Well he actually left Sam and Dean in charge of the universe. Dabb’s narrative has consistently been that Cas is pretty inconsequential to the grand scheme of things and should be considered the brothers lackey if he’s lucky enough to even be that. 

Actually when God takes one character away from the others and tells him that YOU .. um and your little brother are in charge and that one character is the only character that God actually listens to (see Chuck tell Dean he is changing the story by showing up at Stull in season 5 and Chuck actually showing up in response to Dean's verbal bitchslap in season 11), and you are the only character shown acknowledging that the fate of the world rests on your shoulders per Dean's conversation with God in the seadon 13 premiere... well then you are the Firewall who has a little help from his brother and friends (Beatles reference not using little disparaging).  I am not even bringing up all of the conversations with Death that are far above a human's paygrade.

And with emphasis... it is shocking that Dean, God's firewall, Mr. Perfect moral compass who was not even made to be evil as a demon is now shirking his responsibility to God, the universe and the Family Business to force an innocent at gunpoint to do something he knows is bad for business simply because it gets him what he wants and needs.  It is shocking that Dean didn't seem to care that she died.  This is completely new territory for Dean.

Dean's been morose, depressed, bitchy and hyper violent at times buy he has never lost his moral compass.  Even as a demon he never killed an innocent. It was all sex orgies with Crowley, casual hook-ups, bad karaoke, booze and brawls.

So I think Dean's behavior this season is uncharted territory.  

Dean did not open the cage to rescue Sam because the risks were too dangerous and he would not risk releasing Lucifer to save Sam.

Now he was perfectly  willing to risk release Lucifer to save Mary and he continues to be fine with releasing whatever else is trapped over there in the permanent It's a Wonderful Life Apocalypse.  It is scary however I get it.  Losing Mary at age 4 has defined his entire life. I cannot even imagine the psycho feels...

And it is leading to something big.  I personally think they have switched the brothers' respective roles somewhat.  Sam is now functioning as the nursemade/caretakerr although he still lacks ye olde Dean's moral compass because he originated the plan of opening a new rift to rescue Mary and quite happily manipulated Jack to do so.  

Dean is becoming the brother obsessed with doing something obviously bad for personal reasons.  He is not yet to the point of draining folks dry for power... But dark stuff is in his future 

Last  night's repeat of Pyscho Valley Girl Witchery reminded me of the obvious mirroring between two sisters who admittedly were great at winging it and would do anything to save their momma dearest and the Winchesters. 

The Plum mom came back all kinds of wrong.  This is a clear hint that Mary will come back wrong too and the most obvious thing is if she comes back as angelic wear.  Michael is my first guess but maybe he uses her to send over a spy.  My heart wants it to be Crowley; he sacrificed his meatsuit however his demon essence smoked out...  Jack will not know because he aspparently doesn't see true faces per Asmodeus.

[trxr4kids]

I must be watching a totally different show.

[Castiels Cat]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't understand this series of comments.  You said Dean telegraphed that he would kill Jack.  Gonzosgrrrl pointed out that it wasn't any kind of  telegraph but the show  outright stating that Dean would kill Jack.  Dean morphed his position once he tried to find Mary, which was such an abrupt about face that I wonder if Jack whammied him when they mind melded.  At any rate, that Dean now sees Jack as family, doesn't IMO preclude Dean from possibly killing Jack if the time comes. . I can see it now becoming a sad thing that Dean may have to kill Jack if he goes darkside even if he sees him as family. Of course that stupid promo thing implies that someone on TFW is gonna go dark side  so maybe it's Dean who goes dark and Jack kills Dean to save someone.  That would be a twist.

I can't decide if he's obsessed with Lucifer for Lucifer reasons or Sam reasons. I hope that the announce Lucifer and Jack are being spun off into their own series of Lucifer's Family and then we can just keep TFW in SPN.

Dean telegraphed it all season and yes he told Jack he would do so at the same time he could not bear to watch Jack mutilate himself with repeated stabbings.  Telegraphed was my colorful shorthand for everything we had seen which was misconstrued by many fans. 

Early in the season Dean made it clear that he didn't want a relationship with Jack and acted short with Jack.  A lot of fans said Dean was being mean but I saw it as Dean protecting himself because at the time he saw Jack as an evil accident waiting to happen and a dead man walking because he knew that when Jack broke bad Jack would have to die and Dean would have to be the one to do it.  He was on edge waiting for that shoe to drop.   It is the Old Yeller scenario.

This was before Jack became "family" by proving himself.  It will be a lot harder now for Dean if Jack goes bad.  Of course Dean was already softening because Jack acts like a kid and Dean is compassionate and empathetic below his gruff exterior.

There is precedent. Dean considered Benny a brother yet repeatedly told him that he would kill him if he went bad.  Dean's heart and my heart were broken when Dean finally killed Benny to save Sam even though Dean believed that Benny would come back.

Charlie did very little to become family to Dean.  Jack behaved like a brother.

 

Lol your comments often don't make sense to me either.

[Castiels Cat]

42 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My point was more that IF someone kills Lucifer it will not be any of TFW and I also said that Lucifer is on a redemption arc in another comment and I absolutely do not want it and will seriously have to reconsider whether I continue watching a show which makes Lucifer remotely heroic on any level.

My point is that it is looking unavoidable.  They are giving him human feelings.  Cas made him angry and jealous by talking about Jack.  He felt eroticism and passion with Anael, so much so that he freaked.

Jack is a walking plot device.  He opens doors and he will be the reason Lucifer does something kinda, sorts good.  He already has an axe to grind with AU Michael so it is a given that he will be fighting on Team America.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean telegraphed it all season and yes he told Jack he would do so at the same time he could not bear to watch Jack mutilate himself with repeated stabbings.  Telegraphed was my colorful shorthand for everything we had seen which was misconstrued by many fans. 

It's your perception that things were misconstrued by fans, although I don't know which fans you mean exactly.

Dean expressed contempt and hatred for Jack from the moment he was born.  He didn't like seeing him stab himself because Dean is not actually a heartless monster. It was disturbing and Dean realized quickly that it wasn't going to do something to him.  Not to mention that Dean didn't want the Spawn of Satan holding a knife. 

Dean tried to shoot him out of the gate. He did not trust Jack because Jack was half devil spawn. He literally said "I can't look at him because all I see are the people we've lost" and he went on to say that he can't forget that Jack sold Cas a bill of goods and held Jack responsible for his death. He wanted nothing to do with hunting with Jack and only did it because Sam badgered him into doing so. The show changed the horses midstream with the Bad Place IMO WRT to Dean's actions. 

If Dean goes darkside, I'm 100% calling shenanigans. There is no setup for Dean to have gone darkside, regardless if him putting a gun to Kaia's head. He did half ass apologize for it. I don't see him not heeding Billie (if he remembers that part) to be on par with the Sam drinking demon blood or even his actions when he had the Mark of Cain. There is nothing inherently evil in Dean's choices here. 

16 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Lol your comments often don't make sense to me either.

I said I didn't understand meaning I'm looking to understand, so I don't really know what this is supposed to mean TBH.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

My point is that it is looking unavoidable.  They are giving him human feelings.  Cas made him angry and jealous by talking about Jack.  He felt eroticism and passion with Anael, so much so that he freaked.

 

Which aspect did you think was him freaking out over it? I think he didn't like feeling attached to her possibly, but I didn't see that as freaking out. He's already experienced eroticism and passion with Kelly.

Maybe something happened when he sucked her grace but I hope not. I'm so not here for any kind of love affair between Lucifer and Anael, not something to root for anyway.

[Castiels Cat]

On 2/21/2018 at 5:52 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Whatever happens is on Dean AND Sam this time. Dean pulled the gun, sure - but Sam and Jack both went along with it. They were all complicit in opening the rift that ended in Kaia's maybe-demise, and both brothers are actively seeking a way to get to Mary. It's not all on Dean, not by a long shot.

ETA: Not that that will stop Dabb from doing whatever he wants as far as blaming Dean goes, but that's what happened on the screen, regardless. Dean twisted Kaia's arm, but he sure didn't make Sam do anything.

 

Consider this...

Jack is a newborn trying to please Sam and Dean.  He is not responsible yet...

All members of TFW have gone  "dark" to varying degrees

Cas is lousy at free will and has a history of being duped.  His dark arcs never seem that dark to me because he has always been manipulated.  His behavior this season actually seems like character growth.  At this point he is not complicit in opening the rift.

Sam is doing what Sam always does.  When Sam wants something he goes for it regardless of Dean's naysaying monologues or predicted bad and/or cosmic consequences.  All that matters to Sam is what he wants at the time and often he feels he needs to do it to prove something.  He applies situational ethics and figures any collateral damage is overrated.  This selfish hubris is what drives Sam's dark arcs.  In 3 and 4 he trusted a demon over Dean because the demon flattered him.  In 4 and 5 he drank possessed humans dry for power.  In seasons 8-11 he tried to kill Dean's friends out of jealousy, he tried to save Dean using a book guaranteed to hurt the world, he removed the Mark and released the  Darkness, he sanctioned human sacrifice and got Charlie killed, he is the reason Lucifer escaped the cage...  manipulating Jack and opening the rift is small potatoes given this resume.

Dean's dark arcs have always grown out of his depression and low self esteem.  Dean sacrifices himself to save Sam or to kill a big bad and any negative consequences are unforeseen.  Dean always feels tremendous guilt when things go sideways.  Dean's tremendous guilt is typically a major plot point except for demonic Dean who was delightfully guilt-free.

Dean is usually the moral compass. He is the character that tells other characters what they want to do is wrong and often times supernatural characters become humanized and "good" after spending time around him.  He is also the originator of TFB mantra and the originator of TFW.

Originally he was against opening the rift for obvious reasons.  Mary and his Mary feels (her loss shaped his life more than anything else) have flipped Dean into new territory.  He should probably grow a goatee because he is acting like bizarro Dean.

Now he is all for opening the rift and he doesn't care about the consequences.  He not only risked the life of an innocent and did not care about her death, he forced her to do what he wanted at gunpoint.  This is against everything he has stood for.

For comparison... Dean doesn't open the cage to save Sam in season 6 even though he knows how because of the risk of releasing Lucifer and Michael and restarting the Apocalypse!!!!!!!!

Dean usually feels tremendous guilt when anyone in the Winchesters orbit dies; see Jo, Kevin and Charlie. In fact Dean's guilt usually becomes a major plot point.  Hell he even felt so guilty over a PiP's death this season that he became suicidal.

Dean has already gone dark.  It is either the most egregious OoC writing there ever was or it is the precursor to an actual uber dark Dean arc.  I just hope Dean doesn't say yes to psycho fascist Michael to save Mary.  That is not what I want to see.

I would much rather him say yes to crazy cage Michael to fix the mess 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Jack is a newborn trying to please Sam and Dean.  He is not responsible yet...

Except if you consider Jack's timeline of birth as Newborn to fully grown adult body with a mind that can understand how to speak human words and seems to know right from wrong by the time he left the bunker, then he is equally responsible for this. He chose to leave the bunker and hide from the boys it seems. He stopped getting a pass when he blasted them away from him and left on his own.

[trxr4kids]

14 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Consider this...

Consider this, I don't give a rat's ass about Jack because he's an extension of the incredibly boring, played out Lucifer storyline. 

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean did not open the cage to rescue Sam because the risks were too dangerous and he would not risk releasing Lucifer to save Sam.

Dean said in S6 he had been looking for ways to get Sam out. He was also pissed at Sam for not realizing he was in purgatory and trying to get him out, Leviathan be damned.

I don't think Dean hating Jack or pulling a gun on a teen is a sign of any dark arc, I think it's a result of poor characterization and lack of regard by the PTB for the main characters.

[Castiels Cat]

40 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Which aspect did you think was him freaking out over it? I think he didn't like feeling attached to her possibly, but I didn't see that as freaking out. He's already experienced eroticism and passion with Kelly.

Maybe something happened when he sucked her grace but I hope not. I'm so not here for any kind of love affair between Lucifer and Anael, not something to root for anyway.

He played at eroticism and passion with Kelly but he wasn't almost human then.   He is hovering near humanity now because he is at low grace.

When they are laying on the bed and sharing in an almost post-coital fashion he abruptly pulls away in discomfort.  Pellegrino is a very good actor and finally the show is giving him nuances.

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except if you consider Jack's timeline of birth as Newborn to fully grown adult body with a mind that can understand how to speak human words and seems to know right from wrong by the time he left the bunker, then he is equally responsible for this. He chose to leave the bunker and hide from the boys it seems. He stopped getting a pass when he blasted them away from him and left on his own.

Looking for Mary is something he is doing to prove himself to the brothers.  Jack is still learning and growing.  I Don't think he is thinking beyond pleasing the Winchesters and saving Mary.  It is similar to Tombstone.  He wants to be part of the team and he tries to join in the fight and he kills someone.  He hasn't learned yet to weigh a situation and assess consequences.

[Castiels Cat]

47 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Which aspect did you think was him freaking out over it? I think he didn't like feeling attached to her possibly, but I didn't see that as freaking out. He's already experienced eroticism and passion with Kelly.

Maybe something happened when he sucked her grace but I hope not. I'm so not here for any kind of love affair between Lucifer and Anael, not something to root for anyway.

I think they both feel something when they are low on grace.  I think the director shot the feeding scenes sexually merely to convey how close Lucifer is to humanity now.  For me this will factor in to wanting to be a father to Jack, jealousy towards TFW and possibly wanting to save Jack/ do something heroic to prove he's not all bad.

I Don't think an affair is the point and that would be especially squicky because Danneel is married to Jensen.

I was pretty over Lucifer and I thought Rick Springfield was scarier than Pellegrino has ever been.  That said Pellegrino is a great actor and will totally sell Lucifer grappling with humanity even if The writing is not there.

I loved Crowley's human arc.  Sheppard was phenomenal.  I especially loved his performance in the end of seasdon 9 throughout the MoC storyline.  It was almost if Crowley was documenting and mourning Dean's skowky disappearing humanity.  And the bedroom monologue in the season 9 finale... was so moving.  Then his slow progression from frenemy to de facto TFW member.  Loved it 

Unfortunately Lucifer's human arc is tied to Jack and as much as I like actor, Jack is a plot device and will stay that way until his grace is stolen or given.  Then he is probably an episode or two away from death...  

I think a depowered Jack would be a great addition to wayward sisters as a comic foil but that will never happen. 

20 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Consider this, I don't give a rat's ass about Jack because he's an extension of the incredibly boring, played out Lucifer storyline. 

Dean said in S6 he had been looking for ways to get Sam out. He was also pissed at Sam for not realizing he was in purgatory and trying to get him out, Leviathan be damned.

I don't think Dean hating Jack or pulling a gun on a teen is a sign of any dark arc, I think it's a result of poor characterization and lack of regard by the PTB for the main characters.

Yes Dean was looking for a way to save Sam in season 6 however he already knew how to open the cage. He didn't because the deleterious consequences were too great.

22 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Consider this, I don't give a rat's ass about Jack because he's an extension of the incredibly boring, played out Lucifer storyline. 

Dean said in S6 he had been looking for ways to get Sam out. He was also pissed at Sam for not realizing he was in purgatory and trying to get him out, Leviathan be damned.

I don't think Dean hating Jack or pulling a gun on a teen is a sign of any dark arc, I think it's a result of poor characterization and lack of regard by the PTB for the main characters.

Jack is a walking plot device for sure and tied to Lucifer. Lucifer is still around because... It is the Apocalypse baby! Being a daddy, having evil AU Michael and hovering bear humanity because of low grace issues means redemption arc.  Meh.  At least both actors can act.

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean has already gone dark.  It is either the most egregious OoC writing there ever was or it is the precursor to an actual uber dark Dean arc.  I just hope Dean doesn't say yes to psycho fascist Michael to save Mary.  That is not what I want to see.

 

I don't see it as a precursor to evil Dean. He never did it before, and IMO he will never do it again because it was for plot reasons and nothing more. 

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

He played at eroticism and passion with Kelly but he wasn't almost human then.   He is hovering near humanity now because he is at low grace.

When they are laying on the bed and sharing in an almost post-coital fashion he abruptly pulls away in discomfort.  Pellegrino is a very good actor and finally the show is giving him nuances.

Looking for Mary is something he is doing to prove himself to the brothers.  Jack is still learning and growing.  I Don't think he is thinking beyond pleasing the Winchesters and saving Mary.  It is similar to Tombstone.  He wants to be part of the team and he tries to join in the fight and he kills someone.  He hasn't learned yet to weigh a situation and assess consequences.

Sure he's trying to please them but that doesn't remove his responsibility for his actions nor does it make him a child. Adults try to please each other too. Jack found Kaia on his own. He's not a child anymore. Naive, sure. But not a child.  I just don't see them back tracking on Jack being good. I don't see much point to a Dark Dean arc right now either. I don't really see a point to any of TFW being Dark when you have Lucifer out in about.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It's your perception that things were misconstrued by fans, although I don't know which fans you mean exactly.

Dean expressed contempt and hatred for Jack from the moment he was born.  He didn't like seeing him stab himself because Dean is not actually a heartless monster. It was disturbing and Dean realized quickly that it wasn't going to do something to him.  Not to mention that Dean didn't want the Spawn of Satan holding a knife. 

Dean tried to shoot him out of the gate. He did not trust Jack because Jack was half devil spawn. He literally said "I can't look at him because all I see are the people we've lost" and he went on to say that he can't forget that Jack sold Cas a bill of goods and held Jack responsible for his death. He wanted nothing to do with hunting with Jack and only did it because Sam badgered him into doing so. The show changed the horses midstream with the Bad Place IMO WRT to Dean's actions. 

If Dean goes darkside, I'm 100% calling shenanigans. There is no setup for Dean to have gone darkside, regardless if him putting a gun to Kaia's head. He did half ass apologize for it. I don't see him not heeding Billie (if he remembers that part) to be on par with the Sam drinking demon blood or even his actions when he had the Mark of Cain. There is nothing inherently evil in Dean's choices here. 

I said I didn't understand meaning I'm looking to understand, so I don't really know what this is supposed to mean TBH.

Loads of fans webt on and on about big mean Dean. Maybe they were tweens.  I Don't know.

Dean thinking Jack needed to be killed because he was the devil's spawn is retro.  The Winchesters have evolved beyond that 

Dean wanting to kill him before he killed someone after he was born was still retro.... and fueled by Dean's immense grief. Dean likes to keep busy when grieving and Baby didn't need to be rebuilt. In later episodes Dean is grouchy but softening towards Jack.  He is fighting lining him because he knows everything will go south and Dean will be the one to kill him.

Jack proved himself  to be family by finding Mary. This is typical Dean.  Calling someone family is the highest honor Dean can bestow.  Like Dean said Jack did good 

Dean going dark is not tied to how he treats Jack.  Some of his behavior in that regard is retro. They rebooted everyone back to some early season mannerisms in season 12 starting with the pilot and it is part of the reason I started saying we were heading to another Apocalypse. 12:1 felt like a reboot of 1:1 ergo a new Apocalypsebut not the same Apocalypse.  They continued to hit those Apocalypse anvil all season.

Dean  has already gone dark. He doesn't care about world breaking consequences.  He doesn't care about kaia's free will.  He forced an innocent to do something dangerous at gunpoint.he didn't care that she died as a result. Dean has never behaved like this.

Also the brothers roles appear to have switched.  Sam is acting as caretaker.  That was previously Dean's role. And Dean has assumed the role of the brother who does scary things to get what he wants. Dean pulling the gun on Kaia is far worse than Sam acting like he agreed with Ruby about sacrificing the virgin.  Sam looked uncomfortable but didn't say anything to stop Dean. In season 3 Dean looked shocked that Sam actually was considering virgin sacrifice but didn't call him out on it 

So yes I think Dean will go dark.  I think we are heading towards another Judeo-christian supernatural Apocalypse and have since 12:1 and I think we will see Winchesters as abgekuc vessels.

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I don't see it as a precursor to evil Dean. He never did it before, and IMO he will never do it again because it was for plot reasons and nothing more. 

Evil is not the same as dark.  Sam has done dark things and was wrong, misguided, selfish and full of hubris... He was never evil.

Dean has never crossed the same lines Sam has crossed. He is starting to now.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Loads of fans webt on and on about big mean Dean. Maybe they were tweens.  I Don't know.

Dean thinking Jack needed to be killed because he was the devil's spawn is retro.  The Winchesters have evolved beyond tha

 Thinking and seeing that Dean is being portrayed as mean doesn't mean the viewers don't understand it or have to be tweens to think Dean was being an asshole, cause he was, and I understand why he was cause complicated grief and Satan's Spawn at hand. 

Dean likely wouldn't have given up on Mary but he did because he was in deep grief. Depressed. Hopeless. I can't imagine the show will turn a realistic if awful to watch complicated grief arc into at Dark Dean SL. 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It's your perception that things were misconstrued by fans, although I don't know which fans you mean exactly.

Dean expressed contempt and hatred for Jack from the moment he was born.  He didn't like seeing him stab himself because Dean is not actually a heartless monster. It was disturbing and Dean realized quickly that it wasn't going to do something to him.  Not to mention that Dean didn't want the Spawn of Satan holding a knife. 

Dean tried to shoot him out of the gate. He did not trust Jack because Jack was half devil spawn. He literally said "I can't look at him because all I see are the people we've lost" and he went on to say that he can't forget that Jack sold Cas a bill of goods and held Jack responsible for his death. He wanted nothing to do with hunting with Jack and only did it because Sam badgered him into doing so. The show changed the horses midstream with the Bad Place IMO WRT to Dean's actions. 

If Dean goes darkside, I'm 100% calling shenanigans. There is no setup for Dean to have gone darkside, regardless if him putting a gun to Kaia's head. He did half ass apologize for it. I don't see him not heeding Billie (if he remembers that part) to be on par with the Sam drinking demon blood or even his actions when he had the Mark of Cain. There is nothing inherently evil in Dean's choices here. 

I said I didn't understand meaning I'm looking to understand, so I don't really know what this is supposed to mean TBH.

I Don't think it is shenanigans.  They carefully set up Dean as being especially manic about saving Mary last season.  His feelings about saving her are stronger than his save Sam impulses probably because his life was changed substantially at 4 when he lost her. He was so affected by her death that he dedicated his life to hunting and dedicated himsrkf to saving people, hunting things to prevent others for suffering what he did.

It seems obvious now that not being able to save her back then is tied into his low self worth, maybe more so than John's harsh parenting or Sam blaming him for their dysfunctional family.

They pretty much established that Dean would,do anything to save her.  Last season I assumed that this would lead to him saying yes to Michael to save her.  Once they introduced AU Michael I figured he would need our Michael to save her.

Now I am afraid he will say yes to AU Michael to save her (going very very dark) whilst hoping his dark acts will be limited to doing whatever is necessary to open the rift regardless of the consequences and fixing the mess afterwards by saying yes to crazy Michael. 

Dean is already doing dark things.  I was shocked when he pulled that gun and shocked when he seemed to feel no guilt about her death.  Both are unprecedented for Dean.  And Dean typically would not open that rift because the risk was too great.  It is a comparable situation to season 6. 

Sam stuck with Lucifer in cage. Dean knows how to open it but doesn't.

Mary stuck in AU with Lucifer amidst the worst Apocalypse ever.  Dean holds a gun to a girl's head and races to open rift risking Lucifer and a myriad of baddies escaping.

Ummmm.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Evil is not the same as dark.  Sam has done dark things and was wrong, misguided, selfish and full of hubris... He was never evil.

Dean has never crossed the same lines Sam has crossed. He is starting to now.

I was referring to the promo which is what spawned this discussion. The Promo is saying Good and Evil. I thought you were replying to the idea of that and that Dean would go dark/evil. 

Maybe I'm just not following the convo or maybe it just keeps changing.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Mary stuck in AU with Lucifer amidst the worst Apocalypse ever.  Dean holds a gun to a girl's head and races to open rift risking Lucifer and a myriad of baddies escaping.

Ummmm.

 

Sam has a view now that things are going to end bad and bloody for them after mentioning they (not just Dean) dragged Kaia into the mix. I'm a rather attentive viewer and unless I'm forgetting something the show itself never had anyone tell Dean he was wrong to do that, either during or after the fact. Dean sort of apologized for what he  did.  It wasn't specific but it was there. Since that time there has been no further followup or even anyone talking about Dean having done a heinous thing (like in The Hunter Games) when Cas and Sam indicted Dean's behavior and Dean agreed, I'm not seeing it as being indicative of a coming Dark/Evil Dean arc.

What would be reason for another Dark/Evil Dean route just a year or so  after resolving his MoC arc? I just don't think the numbers are there for Dean to be given that arc again. It's really not in rotation for him right now IMO

[Castiels Cat]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was referring to the promo which is what spawned this discussion. The Promo is saying Good and Evil. I thought you were replying to the idea of that and that Dean would go dark/evil. 

Maybe I'm just not following the convo or maybe it just keeps changing.

Well I missed a chunk of the discussion I guess.

AU Michael is evil as are angels wearing necklaces with baby ears which apparently is the thing over there.  At the least it establishes them as at war with humanity and makes him more evil than our Lucifer.  Plus he is into torture.

The shadeen (sp) are evil... too evil for Lucifer to let out and their bad manicures scream evil.

AU Kaia appears to be evil.  The rubber suit squad also appears to be evil.

Asmodeus is fond of evil monologuing and wants to release the e shadeen so he appears to be evil too.  

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Well I missed a chunk of the discussion I guess.

AU Michael is evil as are angels wearing necklaces with baby ears which apparently is the thing over there.  At the least it establishes them as at war with humanity and makes him more evil than our Lucifer.  Plus he is into torture.

The shadeen (sp) are evil... too evil for Lucifer to let out and their bad manicures scream evil.

AU Kaia appears to be evil.  The rubber suit squad also appears to be evil.

Asmodeus is fond of evil monologuing and wants to release the e shadeen so he appears to be evil too.  

Yes those are all evil. If you go upthread you'll see the promo about the good and evil of TFW which I found funny because they aren't fooling anyone. I guess I'm surprised that isn't what you were responding to with your Dark Dean theory.  My mistake.

[Castiels Cat]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Sam has a view now that things are going to end bad and bloody for them after mentioning they (not just Dean) dragged Kaia into the mix. I'm a rather attentive viewer and unless I'm forgetting something the show itself never had anyone tell Dean he was wrong to do that, either during or after the fact. Dean sort of apologized for what he  did.  It wasn't specific but it was there. Since that time there has been no further followup or even anyone talking about Dean having done a heinous thing (like in The Hunter Games) when Cas and Sam indicted Dean's behavior and Dean agreed, I'm not seeing it as being indicative of a coming Dark/Evil Dean arc.

What would be reason for another Dark/Evil Dean route just a year or so  after resolving his MoC arc? I just don't think the numbers are there for Dean to be given that arc again. It's really not in rotation for him right now IMO

Well I see it differently.  Dean's,actions are a big deal.

I see the Hunger Games and season10 differently too. I think Carver consistently played the brothers' behavior against each other and Sam consistently behaved worse even when Dean was a demon.  After all Sam was the one that brokered a denon deal and Sam WAS the one that caused the Darkness to be released.

Even after Dean goes postal on the Stynes and loses it for a while he feels guilt about Rudy, stops and tries to get Death to end his life.

In contrast Sam lies to Dean repeatedly, manipulates Charlie and Cas into helping him, makes dark deals with a dangerous witch, nearly gets Dean and himself killed to get that witch a powerful book, gets Charlie killed, sanctions  human sacrifice,  and uses the BotD after being warned of the consequences.

It looked to me that season 10 was about San going dark and Sam going off of the rails... And of course Sam is the one feeling guilty in season 11 when people die because of the Darkness.

Dean beating up the angel that killed him was not bad behavior.  Dean killing a bunch of pedophile criminals that were going to rape Claire and kill him. Not dark at all.  Dean slaughtering the Stunts even baby Styne was business as usual by that point.   They were  a family of witches that vivisected humans for immortality. 

Sam was the brother off of the rails. The season was an exercise in how low Sam would go to save Dean given his guilt over not saving Dean in 3 and Purgatory.   Demonic Dean was a plot device and MoC Dean was Dean on steroids.  A dark arc in name only.

Dean has never knowingly done anything to hurt others... well except torture demons... nobody is perfect.  He has always thought about the big picture. He has never forced someone into doing something baby gunpoint.  And he has never not felt guilty about a death by proximity to Winchesters.  There have been episodes based on Dean's guilt and I am sure if someone took the time to count up Dean's storylines his number one storyline would be Dean angst, feeling guilt because somebody died.

It is a really big deal.

Since you brought up season 10.   In Dark Dynasty Carver double down on signaling that Sam is the one off the rails and going dark.  This is film geek stuff... There is a gorgeous sequence in which they cut between Dean with Papa Styne and Crowley with Sam.  Dean and Crowley are in parallel situations; both are apparently incapacitated about to be killed.  This means Sam and Papa Styne are mirrored.  It is a big hint for anyone who has missed the many episodes where Sam has been doing bad things and going off of the rails that Sam is the brother that has truly gone dark this season.  

The paired plotlines, the staging and the editing emphasize these pairings and of course both Dean and Crowley are stronger and triumph over their killers.  Strangely somehow Crowley shows mercy to Sam I assume because of Dean and the fact that Dean did not kill Rowena when she tried to kill him.  Dean justifiably shows no mercy.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

hey carefully set up Dean as being especially manic about saving Mary last season. 

Do you mean in s13 in one episode in the Bad Place?

He and Mary were totally at odds in s12 even up to the point when he still opted to save her instead of going with Sam in 12.22. He got her to finally see him after begging her in the dream scape. What other mania did Dean exhibit in s12 or s13 about Mary? I'm not being snarky. Maybe I missed something?   I'm not saying your wrong in your opinion that you think it might go that way, I just don't agree that it's been setup at all much less well to take it that route.

[Castiels Cat]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yes those are all evil. If you go upthread you'll see the promo about the good and evil of TFW which I found funny because they aren't fooling anyone. I guess I'm surprised that isn't what you were responding to with your Dark Dean theory.  My mistake.

Heroes going dark almost never means evil.  

Typically it means simply behaving less heroic and more selfish or in a classical sense wearing their flaws.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean has never knowingly done anything to hurt others... well except torture demons... nobody is perfect.  He has always thought about the big picture. He has never forced someone into doing something baby gunpoint.  And he has never not felt guilty about a death by proximity to Winchesters.  There have been episodes based on Dean's guilt and I am sure if someone took the time to count up Dean's storylines his number one storyline would be Dean angst, feeling guilt because somebody died.

It is a really big deal.

Dean didn't do that in a vacuum.  Jack and Sam helped him. Does Dean's apology to Kaia matter? I think it does. I think it shows that he regretted what he did and thus the show IMO wrapped up that bit which is why I don't think it's going to be a thing going forward. Unless it's brought up in WS by Kaia.  Opening the Rift is a multi person, multi potential blame situation. Maybe the Good vs Evil promo like someone else said, is all three members of TFW being "dark side" because all three are risking the world to save Mary and Jack.  I'm just saying I don't see them singling out Dean for a dark arc.  JMHO

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Do you mean in s13 in one episode in the Bad Place?

He and Mary were totally at odds in s12 even up to the point when he still opted to save her instead of going with Sam in 12.22. He got her to finally see him after begging her in the dream scape. What other mania did Dean exhibit in s12 or s13 about Mary? I'm not being snarky. Maybe I missed something?   I'm not saying your wrong in your opinion that you think it might go that way, I just don't agree that it's been setup at all much less well to take it that route.

They shifted Mary into Sam's old role but from the get go he was way more protective.  He didn't like her hunting.  He didn't like her leaving.  He was anxious in the Foundry. He used Billie and made her a promise to regain access to the house in the hunter funeral episode.  He risked his life to save her from programming.  And he aooeasred to be kicking himself that he didn't sacrifice himself to push Lucifer through the rift before she did. At the time he was stunned by Cas death.  It was clear to me all bets were off regarding Mary last season so even though i recognize Dean's behavior as shocking on one levek i completeky understand it intellectually. I have been expecting him to do something reckless and crazy to save her.

They were emailing and aging word games.  Yes he was a hurt little boy for one hot minute but they had a connection and a relationship that made both Sam and Letch jealous

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Heroes going dark almost never means evil.  

Typically it means simply behaving less heroic and more selfish or in a classical sense wearing their flaws.

Again, it was my mistake because I thought you were responding to the promo that focused on good/evil TFW. Since you were not, that explains the disconnect here. At least from my end anyway.

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean didn't do that in a vacuum.  Jack and Sam helped him. Does Dean's apology to Kaia matter? I think it does. I think it shows that he regretted what he did and thus the show IMO wrapped up that bit which is why I don't think it's going to be a thing going forward. Unless it's brought up in WS by Kaia.  Opening the Rift is a multi person, multi potential blame situation. Maybe the Good vs Evil promo like someone else said, is all three members of TFW being "dark side" because all three are risking the world to save Mary and Jack.  I'm just saying I don't see them singling out Dean for a dark arc.  JMHO

Sam was doing what Sam akways does.  Jack was trying to please them.

Dean has always been the moral compass as I said previously. It is new territory for Dean so yes I expect it to mean something.

I am pretty sure he is getting a dark arc. Time will tell.

Just now, catrox14 said:

Again, it was my mistake because I thought you were responding to the promo that focused on good/evil TFW. Since you were not, that explains the disconnect here. At least from my end anyway.

That was a horrible promo.

Waiting for Shaving People, Punting things to be excited.